AssemblyBoard

I know that it is hard to believe, but we have reconcilation has taken place between Brent and Suzie and the assembly in SLO.  Kirk though I have already asked you for forgiveness, I do so again for not actively pursuing your recommendations.  Rob, I ask for forgiveness from you for not being more aggressive with the concerns you brought up.  I know that I told both of you that more repentance was needed and we prayed multiple times that the truth would be exposed, my timetable was not the same, it was too slow, but the truth has been exposed and we acknowledge that the ‘big stick’ has hurt, but it was needed.  In our meeting today I said that I sinned by not following my own convictions of in the fall of 2001, that’s the time when Rob wrote and I am sure I was still meeting with Kirk.  I recognize now that I served the ministry of the assemblies more than the body of Christ in San Luis Obispo, this too was sin.  For those that I did not go out to that were stumbled in San Luis Obispo I ask your forgiveness as well, you can write me at tosetfree@sbcglobal.net if you want to meet with me personally.  

Yes there is a lot of damage done in San Luis Obispo and the Holy Spirit is grieved for our sins and ways.  We are going to be talking at a pastors prayer time sometime in the near future to ask for their forgiveness and we have already agreed to be accountable to the pastor of Calvary if he hears of any ways that are not in keeping with the unity of the Spirit, we will invite this from any of our brethren in this city.  

I am writing now because I believe that anything is possible with God and I know there is more healing to be pursued, but if we can get this far anything can happen.  I want to encourage those who are offended to go and tell, or write, or call, whoever you need to that you are offended and that you want reconciliation, Brent and Suzzie are coming to break bread with us tomorrow, that is unbelievable, but all of us have great peace in our hearts about this.  Many of you on this board I know fairly well and I have good memories of you.  Maybe it seems impossible, but I have prayed for this over and over.  

Let me have it or rejoice with me, I hopefully can respond in the Spirit.  

Danny Edwards

Hi Danny

It is Aaron Russo.  Remember me?  Anyway, I am rejoicing at the latest news from SLO.  I got saved and came into fellowship through the assembly there.  The events of the past year or two have really caused me to agonize over what was going on in SLO when I was there and in the years after I left.  It would be really helpful to me if I could hear from someone there what has and is happening.  It would also help me to know how to pray for you all and the assembly here in Riverside.  I have been out of the assembly for a year and a half but have a lot of contact with the saints there, especially recently and probably in the near future.  Any input from you would be appreciated.  My e-mail address is brorusso@msn.com.  I would love to hear from you.


In His service

Aaron Russo

Hello Aaron and Danny!  Whoa!  :oDanny! :D

Well, if you haven't already noticed, it is a brand new day.  Tomorrow, we are going to publicly make everything known that was accomplished today.  Tomorrow on the web, details will begin to come out.  All of this will be made known, but we want to do this in the flesh (not "in the flesh", but in person) first!

Cyberspace has its limitations!

There is also great news from other gatherings.  A new day has dawned, and I don't mean that in the poetic, pretentious manner.  I am dead serious, God visited us in an amazing way today.

This is not over!  But we will now go forward in the light, with the grace of God as our help!  I am so happy!  but just a little bit tired.... 8)

Brent

Danny,

God will honor your humility. I'm so glad to hear from you. I still remember when you received Christ at Orange Coast College. Never be afraid of the truth. Jesus said He is the truth. You can't go wrong when you come face to face with Him.

Blessings on you and your family,

Ava

Hi Ava

What are you doing up so late?  

Just kidding

Aaron

Hi Ava, I hope that old relationships can be restored.

I always liked you and very much remember you from the Beach. Actually I got saved two months before OCC, but certainly was brand new.

Aaron I will write you when I have some time, I am swamped right now.  I hope you and Lucy are doing okay, say hi to her.  Danny E

Hi Danny!
  This is truly wonderful news!  I sense in your note that you understand there are those who will be skeptical re. this repentance and exactly what the nature of that repentance is.
   I think some of the scepticism could be removed by a specific explanation of what is being repented of.  Is the repentance just re. SLO and the Dave G. situation?  Do you see deeper issues that involve Assembly teaching and practices that led to the David G. sin?
   I don't say these things to "let you have it" or in any kind of mean spirit, but I think there needs to be clarity here to not only remove scepticism, but to really see full clearing of the matter.  
   I think the fact that you are being entreated of the Christian community in SLO will be a great help.  I would also urge entreatability from those who have been offended by the works of GG, as to the serious foundational errors re. teaching and practice.  I believe the latter will have deeper insight than the former as to the subtle principles of abuse in the Asssemblies.
   God is indeed doing wonderful things!
                                 God Bless,  Mark Campbell

Ecellent post, Mark. I'm a little concerned about the tone here since last night. Namely, that since three or four of the LBs at this one particular local assembly have repented (of what I'm hoping we'll find out later) that everything is going to be OK now.

This is not a San Luis Obispo issue. This is a Geftakys ministry issue. At the top of the list is accountability for the Geftakys clan, removal of them from the ministry, then for accountability and repentance of leadership across the country followed by sweeping reform of pattern and doctrine.

The things that happened in SLO were not only due to the particularly weak character of the Geftakyses, but to a flawed and dangerous doctrine propagated by a charismatic leader. That is more dangerous to more people than anything that happened in any one particular gathering.

The SLO repentance is important. And huge if true. But it is merely a step in a greater process.

Scott McCumber
formerly of Tuscola IL

Excellent point, Mark! I don't think I could have put it any better myself. Why don't we all pray that the Lord would open the eyes, not just of the leading brothers at SLO, but of all the saints in all the assemblies to "the serious foundational errors re. teaching and practice." After all, "with God all things are possible." (Matt. 19:26)
Keep up the good work!
In Christ,

H  

Danny,

Thanks for being open, honest, and willing to admit wrong. May God bless you and yours. I am especially amazed and excited about inviting those from Calvary to help. "Nothing is too hard for God." I'll be praying for you.

Love,

Don

Hi Danny, want to say ditto, to all that the others have said.  And will continue to pray for you Kimber and familys healing from all that you have been through and will go through.  Lord has been faithful to me and many others, so I know he will be faithful to you.

YBITL
George Allen

Scott,

I am with you.  I am encouraged that the SLO Leading Brothers are making steps.  (Note:  I have not recieved any apology from them but I am assured it is in the works.)  I am also encouraged to hear the steps others, saints and leadership alike, are making in such assemblies as Arcata.  However, I would once again reiterate, the abuse to me and my mother was a symptom of a problem that permeated the entire ministry.  I have still not heard of any true repentance from Mike Zach in the mid-west, nor has others complicit in the abuse, such as Tim Geftakys and Mark Miller, to my knowledge, taken responsiblity for their part and done the right thing by stepping down from leadership positions.  I also would like to note there have been other stories of abuse besides mine that are still hiden.  I would like the events taking place in SLO to be an encouragement to all victims of past abuse in the assembly, that telling the truth, telling your story can shine light and make a difference.  Please, come forward with your stories, now.  Now is the time when there is an open door for a real clearing throughout the entire ministry but the victims need to be bold and tell their stories so that corruption can not be hidden and overlook during this time of unprecedented openness.  

Rachel Steepleton

Rachel, very well put sister.  When I talk to those still in, I too continue to encourge them to push the issue of the others in leadership to repent and come clean (again Lord Bless you Danny).

When I talk to people still in they mentioned that this and that was said about George and Betty, but I never hear about you two.

To me it seems that some brothers intend to use George and Betty as scapegoats, so they do not have to come clean themselves.  They are screaming from the hilltops George was this and that, did this and that, but at the same time not admitting their own part in this tangled web that was weaved with their help/knowledge.  It is sad to think these men are going to miss the grace and mercy afforded to them to repent.

I'll get off my "soapbox now."

Lord Bless,
George

Hello All

I have just read this thread, and I must say you all have valid points.  Let me assure you that your concerns were clearly communicated by yours truly, in front of witnesses both today and yesterday.  I am fully convinced that true repentance, especially including reparations to Judy will happen VERY soon.

As for leadership stepping down, every single leader in Fullerton did just that, and something similar happened in SLO.  Please be patient!

I worked for over 2 years collecting information in the exposure stage of this, and I have only had part of one day to gather info in the repentance stage.  it's a bit of work.  Use the telephone.  Ask these guys yourselves, and let them know what your concerns are.  If you think they are going to be allowed to skate, or have scapegoats, think again.  Godly men from outside are now involved, and this thing will go forward.  

You all have my word that I will do everything in my power to see it through.  I can expose much more if need be, but I trust that this will all come out on its own at the present time.  

I don't think things would improve if we roasted George and Betty over an open fire, and raided his offshore accounts and gave all to Judy.  I think we need to let God work out the roasting, while we see to the reparations!

Brent

You know,  another thing I just noticed:

People are starting to use their real names on this BB.  wow! ;D

We can all come out of hiding!  We are free!  It's nice out here!

Brent

I too have read the thread, I understood that there would be skepticism, that’s okay because ‘by their fruit you shall know them’.  We are serious about what we have said and as concerning doctrine or false teaching that is something that may surface, but I know of no false doctrine that is allowed.  The work came down like an old baseball stadium that was imploded in 30 seconds, what remains are the testimonies.  Each one is facing a massive amount of heart wrenching truth that has taken most by total surprise, most everybody that I am involved with were doing what they were doing in goodwill, God knows and will honor this.  What remains are the testimonies and each group is on there own and must decide the course of their fellowship, this is wonderful too as many assemblies are meeting and having open discussion and evaluating everything that we do, give them time too.  We have brought great shame to the name of Jesus Christ in San Luis Obispo and so we see the need to be accountable to local leadership and go forward in humility, this is not the Will of God for every gathering, but they may need to do things we don’t etc.  For me it has taken 1 ½ years for my relationship to drastically change with brother George, many out there did not experience what I did, so they need to be given even more space and let the Lord work and show them what to do. The fact that today all the assemblies across the country still exist show that this is not something to fight against, but to let the Spirit work in each place in His unique way.  It has been 2 days, give us time to demonstrate our seriousness regarding these things.  Each one of you were in fellowship for years, it took you time to see flaws and problems, sins and such, those that have remained now have an opportunity to go forward in the leading of the Lord in new ways, each gathering will look different and that is great.

Danny E

Here's one false teaching:

Man was created on the 7th day.  There are taped transcripts from recent seminars with George teaching this numerous times.

Another:

Liberty, adoption, destiny, inheritance, and glorification all speak of something beyond forgiveness of sins, as great as that is.  These greater privileges of the Christian life demand serious commitment and love for the Lord Jesus Christ. .  (p. 36, The Glorious Liberty of the Sons of God)

What we need to realize is that although God desires all of this for us, it is conditional.  Salvation from sin is unconditional, but privilege in glory is conditioned upon our response. (p. 40-41, Stages on the Journey)

Our forgiveness of sins and justification is unconditional in the Word of God, but holiness of life and the reward at the judgment seat of Christ are conditional.  (p. 75, So Great Salvation)

These are all taken from George's books as noted and display the performance based salvation for christian privileges.

Danny, it is understandable that it may take you and others to see these things.  Be careful readers of the word.  You need to unlearn alot of what you have been taught by Mr. Geftakys.    Read Galatians.

Thanks Danny,
I'm trusting Christ that there will be clarity in every heart.  We will need much patience, I know I will.  I know that God wants to do a deep work of repentance not only in SLO and Fullerton but in Springfield, Chicago, Annandale, Estevan, ...  It is only God that can accomplish this.  He can do ANYTHING! AMAZING GRACE! ...mercy still reserved for me! HALLELUJAH, what a Savior!

Danny,
I believe that you are right.  This process is just beginning.
Each assembly will have to do some evaluating and reconsidering their teachings and practices.
Please keep the windows open.  By this I mean that the assemblies aggressively attempted to control the information available to God's people for years.  If you control what someone knows, you control what they think.  If you control what they think, you control what they do.
Where it was impossible to control people's access to information, it was common practice to "poison the well".
By this I mean that people's character or ministries were attacked in order to keep the saints from paying attention to them.
Once, during my last months in the assembly at Fullerton, Dan Notti told my daughter Joy and Me, "Look at these churches, there is no light in them".  I took Joy home and brought her over to my bookcase.  I began reading the names of the authors there. Spurgeon, Chafer, Schaeffer, G. Campbell Morgan, Newell, Torrey, Moody, Talbot, Gaebelein, Walvoord, Pentecost, Packer, Tournier, on and on.
I told her," don't listen to him, he is an ignorant man if he believes what he told you." God has richly gifted His church. (There's only one you know).
If you keep the windows open, over time you will find yourself changing your ideas in a number of areas.  This is a process all of we ex-assembly people have gone through.
One of the "big ones" is when we all realized that that the evangelical churches are full of godly, sincere Christians, who are our brothers and sisters in Christ and not our enemies.
Walk in the light,
Thomas Maddux

Danny,

Thank you for your phone call Sunday morning.  Yes, brother.  I forgive you.  It's taken a lot of courage to do what you've just done.  I mentioned your call was not going to be a "thanks for your apology - good bye - never hear from you again" kind of conversation.  I meant that.  The process of restoring my regard for you has begun.

Rob Kazarinoff

Hi Rob,
Tell Linda I want to talk to her.  My email address is: loriwraycpa@alliancecable.net

Lori

Lori,

So good to hear from you.  I'm not sure you know me well, but you were the first sister that left after I came into fellowship.

I'm still here in SLO, and I can say that GOD HAS DONE SOMETHING GREAT.  

It's as if salvation has occured for our gathering.  I'm not sure how it came about, and I'm a bit confused, full of joy, and wondering what is next.  But, I know it has occured.

Corey

I humbly ask you Danny to consider, how do you KNOW this is NOT the Will of God for every gathering?  Wouldn't you have said three months ago that it was the Will of God to NOT address these issues at all?  In light of the agregious things that are now coming to light (and we know there are others) and realizing that these are simply the fruit of a ministry that was taught by a wicked and corrupt man, I would say that it IS the Will of God that EVERY ASSEMBLY must ask for their local mainstream christianity pastoral staff to come alongside them and make sure that what they are teaching is doctrinally correct.  There should be a tremendous endeavor to clear themselves in the matter.  George and Betty groomed each one of these men and women who were in positions of power and leadership and exactly what to teach.  You know Danny that we frowned upon "seminary trained" men or women of God coming into our ranks to teach differently.  Now we are dealing with the fruit of our pride.

My prayer is that the men in every locality see that these are the steps that MUST be taken in order restore Christ to each locality, as well as sound biblical teaching.

Proverbs 16:2, "All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the Lord weigheth the spirits."

Hi Kimberley,
When I saw you were still logged on my first thought was "I hope she simply forgot to log off, it is not healthy"

Then I saw your post at 5am

Yes, we are in a battle and I realize that the Lord has you so burdened to pray that you can not sleep.  It is not time to let up, it is time to pray even more fervently.

1 Peter 5:7 (PHIL)  You can throw the whole weight of your anxieties upon him, for you are his personal concern.

Notice that it does not say part, but "the whole" or "all"

His people are His personal concern. He gives grace to the humble.

Continue to pray and cast yourself on the Lord, yes let your fervency be in prayer.

Phil 4:6  Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God;
7  and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

What a Friend we have in Jesus, all our sins and griefs to bear!
What a privilege to carry everything to God in prayer!
O what peace we often forfeit, O what needless pain we bear,
All because we do not carry everything to God in prayer.

Have we trials and temptations? Is there trouble anywhere?
We should never be discouraged; take it to the Lord in prayer.
Can we find a friend so faithful who will all our sorrows share?
Jesus knows our every weakness; take it to the Lord in prayer.

Are we weak and heavy laden, cumbered with a load of care?
Precious Savior, still our refuge, take it to the Lord in prayer.
Do your friends despise, forsake you? Take it to the Lord in prayer!
In His arms He’ll take and shield you; you will find a solace there.

Blessed Savior, Thou hast promised Thou wilt all our burdens bear
May we ever, Lord, be bringing all to Thee in earnest prayer.
Soon in glory bright unclouded there will be no need for prayer
Rapture, praise and endless worship will be our sweet portion there.

Dear Kimberley, and others.

I hope all of you have read The Lord of The Rings.  

After Saruman and Sauron were defeated, there were still people who didn't know right away.  It took some time to get things straightened out, and to realize that the Dark Lord was dead and gone.  There were still some who behaved in fear, like he was not gone, and others, who wished he was still in power.

However, most people realized that a new day had dawned.  I am only using this to illustrate a point.  Do not go off on me by telling me that LOTR is fantasy, and this is REAL life.  I am well aware of that!

When someone has been in prison for twenty years, and is used to getting up at six AM to the sound of a Klaxon, it may take some time for them to change their sleeping patterns when they are released.  

When you have been believing and teaching certain things for many years, you can't toss them aside in a moment, unless you become totally dishonest with yourself. It will take time, even as it did for all of us.

George was false, as false as they come.  Yes, he was a false teacher, but not everything he taught was false, many things were quite true.

The Word of God is sharper than any two-edged sword.  By the leading of the Holy Spirit, I trust that God will open the word to our friends, and show them, first of all, His Love and Grace.  At the present time, We/they, need to see Jesus!

The other things will sort out in due time, perhaps very quickly.

We have an ex-JW beginning to come to our home group.  Shall I sit him down this week and demand that he face all the false doctrine promulgated by watchtower, understand it, and renounce it?

He knows Jesus, the REAL Jesus.  So do the people in the Assembly.

I am impatient for certain deeds to occurr, but I am confident that many doctrinal errors will be cleared up, and I am willing to be patient.  

These concerns, voiced here ( I remember saying a thing or two about George's false teaching. Does anyone remember this?) and elsewhere are totally valid, and hopefully will come to the forefront.  But lets give it some time!  Noble Bereans didn't snap to acceptance of Paul's teaching.  They carefull weighed it.

Noble ex-assembly will do the same.  (yes, I said noble, and you would too if you saw what I saw.)

God loves these people, and they will be made whole in His time.

"This is far from over, we have many things to get right." Quote from Danny Edwards, January 19th, 2003, in front of everyone.   I think he gets it.

Brent

Oh, I also wanted to say that there are no more "itinerate brothers."  Hopefully, as in SLO, there will be guest speakers from the Body of Christ, IE from other churches!  Praise God!

Hi all, I was reading in Hosea today (for those that know me they will not be surprised that I was in the minor prophets).  The whole book deals mainly with how the Lord was going to deal with His people Israel (especially Ephraim with regards to their backsliding).  

Reason I bring this up because the Lord is showing me (one who has been out for over 4 years), that it took time for me to heal (still have areas that need to be, but who knows these may be areas that are not completed until I behold Him, and are changed into His likeness).  Note: the word points out we shall be like Him, when we see Him  I John 3:2 , remember this when going out to anyone, but most importantly when dealing with yourself, because we so expect perfection from time to time.  That is why we must ask God in all honesty and humility to search us Psalm 139:23.24.

Back to Hosea, you see throughout the whole book passages of judgment, but with these come promises of GREAT healing and restoration Ch 6, .  This healing and restoration through takes time, Lord refers to renewal in terms of crops (ok I have never farmed), but I know corn does not come up overnight, and fig trees after planting do not give their fruit for sometime.  I am not saying that all things will take time but some will (Repentance and forgiveness can be instant), but the consequences from the sin(s), could be a lifetime.

For those of you that have just recently left, take to mind these things, which have already been said before.

1.   Not everything you learned in the assembly was wrong, some things taught were not original/exclusive to the assemblies.  If you get rid of your George books then fine, but remember on those book tables were Spurgeon, Andrew Murray, Chambers, etc., and a lot of messages were preached on what they wrote.

2.   Do not be ashamed to contact brethren of old, for a number of you this will be hard I know (since you talked about them after they left, or did not stand with them in how the Lord lead them out).  I have this to say from what I have seen and all the people I know out we are hear for you and willing to help and forgive.

3.   Most of you if not all of you will have a HARD time dealing with leadership wherever you have gone, this is one of those crop issues it will take time.  What I suggest you do in go to the pastor, elder, someone in leadership and simply explained to them what you have come out of/from.  This will do two things, one you will get a good sense of do these people stand for the Lord or themselves by how they answer you.  Second, you will start a relationship of trust, might not be much there but the seed has been planted.  Psalm 37:23-26  Never seen the righteous forsaken nor his seed seeking bread   DARBY

4.   Continue to do the great commission and preach the gospel!  This I would say is on of the greatest things the assembly taught me.

5.   Pray, pray, pray, and ask to pray with anyone you speak with.  Also let the prayer flow, may there be many child like prayer in you life going forward.

Lord Bless you all,
G

Brent,

AMEN and AMEN!

Excellent post.  
I was once teaching in the adult fellowship of Creek Park Community Church.  I turned to a passage to illustrate a point, and suddenly realized that the I words I expected weren't there!  The NASB did not support the point I was making, it was based on a peculiarity of the King James translation.  (Let's see now, which translation did GG like?)

Recent leavers are going to be revising their ideas as long as they stay in contact with healthy Christianity.  Remember, they thought of these ministries as a threat until very recently, almost enemies, at least those who "do not have heavenly vision".  
They have a lot of work to do. Pray and support them.  God is the Judge of men's hearts, not you and I.

Remember the Lord of the Rings...it was Gollum who finally destroyed the ring.  Gandalf said to Frodo when discussing why Bilbo did not just kill him when he had the chance, something like..."can you give life?  Should you take it? Many who deserve to live, die.  And many who deserve death are yet alive. Maybe he has some part to play before the end".  And it proved so in that insightful story.

Well, we are dealing with real life.  And real souls, chosen for glory by the Eternal, All Wise God.  Let's let God do His work.  

Grace to all,
Thomas Maddux

Dear Danny,

you said "I know of no false doctrine that is allowed." I love you, dear brother, so I hope this doesn't hurt your feelings, but that statement only shows how successful GG was at thoroughly indoctrinating his followers with his false version of Christianity. I don't have much time, so I'm not going to deal with a lot of details. Let me just point out what I consider to be the most basic and serious false doctrine that George teaches, namely, the teaching that the Lord Jesus Christ died for the sins of the entire human race. I realize that many other Christians also believe and teach this doctrine, which may be part of the reason why I continued to believe in it for so many years, but that doesn't make it true. Consider these 2 facts:

1. The Lord Jesus Christ Himself clearly taught in John 10:11-15 that He would give (lay down) His life for the sheep[/u].
2. Nowhere in the Bible did the Lord Jesus Christ ever teach that He would give (lay down) His life for the entire human race.

Question: Do you think the Lord is pleased when people teach what He never taught instead of teaching what He did teach?

If you would like to explore this subject further, here is some good material:

http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/calvinism/L.asp
http://www.gospeloutreach.net/limited_atonement.html
http://www.ids.org/ids/limit.html

May the Lord open the eyes of His sheep to the truth!

Love in Christ,
H

Hi H, I have to disagree with your point who Christ died for.

1.  John 3:16 is clear and other passages, if Christ did not die for everyone, then why tell us to go into the whole world and preach the gospel to everyone?

2.  You claim Christ did not teach it, well Christ did not teach about a lot of things.  Homosexuality etc.

I do not mean to attack you, but more what you hold.  Now if what you hold and belive is you, then I entreat you like we are entreating everyone else on this site, let CHRIST be your life, not a doctrine.

Lord Bless,
G

Isn't it wonderful though, Peaceful and H, that we can disagree and have a dialogue, you know we were never allowed to do this in the assembly.

This topic you are debating is one that mainstream christianity debates, as well.  

There are so many other of George's teachings that are clearly in error, why dialogue over issues that even mainstream christianity cannot agree on?

I john 2:2

"And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

Yes Kimberly, it is nice that we can dialogue, for in the assembly in the past one of us would not be in for long (which come to think of it would have been a blessing in disguise).

 Also I feel and further discussion should be moved to the Bible side of the BB.

Cheers,
G

Kimberely, Thank you for bringing up the 7th day.  This is a sign that we were way too influenced by George.  Almost everybody that I know of rejected this, but we should have with one accord stood and said you are not going to teach this here. In Chicago they confronted him on it, but it should have been everywhere.  George's book and tapes are no more in SLO, but great men of God have also influenced the thoughts and practices among the assemblies, there may be things to unlearn and the Lord will show this.  Also I don't know what the Lord's will for each gathering is, I just know what we have to do.   The Lord has judged our pride, and may God have mercy upon us.  I know that He sees my heart and He is weighing my spirit.

Tom, I believe that MUCH will be evaluated from gathering to gathering, all it should be and I believe that the Spirit will direct and show us new things and ways.  I absolutely and always have believed that there are godly and sincere Christians in every gathering and they are not are enemies, more so now I see we were too impressed with our form and vision.  In the future we are committed to be inclusive and if any of the talk of comparing or competing comes up, we will call it out and repent of it.

Rob, Thank you very much and pray for me, I need it.  

Rick I will call you some time.

Bob, Thanks for the verses

Danny,

I am in awe at the goodness of God in our lives.  I was very encouraged by the repentance taking place in SLO.  I knew God would get His glory one way or another!

I am owed an apology.  I was threatened by Roberto Sanchez back in January of 2001 for talking to a single sister in SLO about why I left the Assembly.  He told me that he told her to avoid me, and threatened to tell the saints not to talk to me as well.  That has left an emotional mark on my soul that is still festering.  Please pass along this, if you don't mind, as I do not have any contact with the Sanchez's.  Thank you brother, and I am praying for you!

Danny, your posts and others like it do so much to reinforce the credibility of what is going on - the reality...We are at a beginning, let grace flow. We must be crucified daily...tomorrow is another day and everyone must pursue peace tomorrow as well. Today's manna will not keep until tomorrow...It must continually be gathered day-by-day.

Folks, out there I can't speak for Danny, however, having been a witness to Saturday's and Sunday's events - like the breaking of water - right now there are "no sacred cows" in SLO...These men are reviewing their lives, their doctrine, their past and their future.  They need prayer and encouragement.

They are seeking out the accountability of local SLO pastoral leadership.  As an outsider, I would encourage all current and former LBs to pursue that same accountability with your local pastors/leaders in your respective communities.

Healing, answers, hope, grace, and love await you!

Eulaha,

Write Roberto yourself!

No more proxies...I know he is entreatable - write him rsvslo@aol.com...Grace is flowing like a river!  If you don't have a joyful reconciliation - call me at 913.488.1046.  The Lord is moving in Roberto's heart!

Blessings to you sweet sister...Write him this minute!

Chuck/ chuck@vanant.com

Brent, I just read your post from this morning...the longer one about the process that is moving forward.  

Beautiful!  Beautiful!  Beautiful!  

This site has moved from judgement to grace so quickly, so incredibly fast - I'm in awe!  It is a great miracle - frankly, I'm incredulous.  Your words are both wise and sweet, Brent.  I too have been thinking about the Lord of the Rings and all the parallels, but didn't want to stumble anyone...

Please be careful, Brent, that as you see what God is doing with this new chapter in your Web site that you maintain the most severe humility...Please!  Be ruthless with any tinge of pride...any hint whatsoever.  People are vulnerable...We are not worthy to see what we are seeing.

I was so edified by your message...I see God in this.  His ways are higher than our ways and He's lifting us up into His fellowship to see and to know Him, His grace, His ways...What a priviledge!

Folks, we're experiencing a life event in our midst. I've dreamed about Christians acting this way my entire Chrisitan life!  And, I never thought I'd live to see it!  Never, never, never did...God's pleasures are so supreme!

He's making our feet like hinds feet and making us dwell on his high places!

I'm rejoicing!

Chuck / chuck@vanant.com

Chuck Vanasse
913.488.1046

A couple of questions:

1.  Have the people in other countries been informed of George's excommunication, e.g. Samuel, and others

2.  Is the door of the tape closet in the accomodation in Fullerton unlocked?

3.  What has happended to Tim G.?

4.  If the leaders have stepped down in Fullerton, who's running things?

As for false doctorine.  It's what you learn after you get out of the geftakys ministry that really counts :D

The only great man of God that I know of is Jesus Christ, everybody else is suspect and subject to the scrutiny of what he said.  

Dear G,

Unlike some people we know, I don't take it personally when people disagree with me. I do want Christ to be my life, which is why I believe what He said. He said: "I lay down my life for the sheep." (John 10:15). He also said: "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another." So I will keep on loving you even if you disagree with me.

Regarding John 3:16, why don't you take a look at this interesting page?:

http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/calvinism/full.asp?ID=58

Regarding the preaching of the Gospel, Verne already did a good job of answering that question. We don't know who the Lord's sheep are, but the Lord does, and He tells us to preach the Gospel. We are to obey, and He will save His sheep.

In accordance with your suggestion, I will post additional material on this subject at some point in the future on the Bible side of the BB.

Love in Christ,
H  

I looked at the page.  I think his arguement for limited atonement is full of holes, not the least of which is changing the words "might" and "world" to fit his interpretation.  So every time Jesus says "world" or "whosoever" or "all" or "any", he's just referring to the elect?  Come on.  How 'bout rather say, I don't know what that means, but I'm guessing here.  

"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world."  If "world" is the elect as this man argues, then who is the "our" referring to?

Arthur,

Fullerton is going to have a period of time seeking the Lord and waiting upon him for any future decisions.  They are humbled and reeling from all of the devastating news, pray for them.

Call Tim and ask him how he is doing, I know that he is broken through all of this.

I believe all the countries no about what has happened

Danny or perhaps someone else may know the answer to this.  Apparently, the valley assembly as of early Sunday evening had not received anything about George's excommunication nor about the leadership stepping down in Fullerton.  Someone in the assembly told me about this.  Were some assemblies not notified?  To whom was the email/letter sent?  This concerns me because, if true, there could be other assemblies that don't know.

BTW, an ex-assembly member provided the letter to a current assembly member.  From what I understand the LB's were going to check into it.

Hey Danny,

Ok, that makes sense about Fullerton.  Yes, time will tell, I hope things all work out for the best in the next few months and years.  No doubt all this must be very heavy, confusing and wonderful for all involved.  George Geftakys excommunicated from his own church!  Who would have thought!  I tell you, that to me shows there's hope and that this ministry wasn't throughly bad or cultish.  You don't see the mormons kicking out their prophet.
Do you really think Tim would talk to me?  I think I will call him, after I've thought about all this some more.  
So, are all the tapes still around?  I guess it doesn't matter so much anymore now, since it has already become known to most everyone now that George's teaching is suspect.  Though, it still would be a kick to hear about how the oil is going to run out by the mid-80's.  lol, j.k. ;)

I'd like to meet with you sometime, if we could.  When would be a good time for you?

Arthur

Danny,

You write "but I know of no false doctrine that is allowed."

What do you say about this?.........Galatians 3:18  "For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise."


Garth

Verne, exactly!  That's why I think it's silly that the dude with the Limited Atonement article thinks "world" means "elect".  What a maroon.  Oops.. ad hominen?    o_O

Garth Maul?  LoL.  Dude, you've done some spring cleaning of your posts there I see. I guess being an overcomer poster is not the goal anymore, eh?  

Praise the Lord!

‘Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any; even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.’ Col 3:12-13

Arthur,  Tim I am sure would be willing to talk to you, in time go for it.  Tapes are not being listened to in many places, if any.  Getting together would be fine, any time,  how about this week, let me know.  Email me tosetfree@sbcglobal.net.  Thanks for toning down some of your posts.

Garth,  I do believe that the inheritance is by promise and by grace.

Eric, I still am going to email you about your email to me, I’m just swamped and am not a super fast typer.  I do believe that the letter was mailed out to every place, but not sure if everybody read it.

Danny,

I should have been more specific........Can a  believer LOSE his/her inheritance?

Hi Danny,

We are rejoicing with you brother. I am also very curious about the Northern Campus Confrence. As far as I can tell the saints in SF, Sac & San Jose have not heard the letter of excommunication. (See my post regarding the NCC) I was just wondering if it's been cancelled? Or if SF is sending in other preachers for the time or if you are still considering preaching at it???

Sister in Christ
Stacy in Arcata

‘Follow Peace with all men and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord’ Heb 12:14

Garth,
Down the road I am willing to discuss doctrinal issues off line, I don’t think this is the time for us to probe into all of what I believe as these are age old issues, this issue of the Kingdom and rewards, forfeiture etc. is a hot topic in much of Christianity today and the influence of Lang, Govett, Chitwood, Dillow and others are seriously being considered in many large evangelical circles.  Right now we have a mess to clean up and make our repentance real in light of specific hurts and offences.  If you have some with Lombard I would encourage you to speak with Joe and Tim, I know these me are men of goodwill and are probably reevaluating a lot of what they have been involved in, now is the time to come to peace and restore fellowship among old friends and fellow Christians.  

Hi Stacy,
As far as I know the campus conference in the North it  is either canceled or greatly modified, SLO and Arcata are not attending.  We are letting SF, Sac and SJ work through these issues, I do know as of this morning that Sac is standing with Fullerton in view of the letter of excommunication and are having meetings with all to discuss these things, I don’t know about the others, but know that they have to work through it together, I am sure that many are speaking up there so like with all of us we need time to really filter through all of this.  ‘…walk worthy…with all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.’  Eph 4

What posts are you referring to?

('  >`)

Hello Everyone

I thought I would pop in and answer the most frequent questions that I get on email.  I'l stick to the ones that get asked the most.

1.) "Are you going back to the Assembly?"  No, we are not.  We are at Calvary Chape, SLO, and we intend to stay there.  However, we are in fellowship with our friends, whom we have known for almost twenty years.  This is a miracle of God's grace, and we couldn't be happier.  My children are overjoyed that they can see their friends and that they can visit eachother's church.  Amazing.

2.) "Why haven't you removed everything from the website, people have repented?"  I have removed the vast majority or articles.  Not everyone has heard the facts, or knows the darkness.  You will notice on this BB, that several assemblies may still be hanging on to darkness.  The people there need the opportunity that all of us had to be enlightened, albeit without the hurtful speech.  I trust that what is left on the web fits this category, coupled with the new tone on the BB.  All of the old stuff is available on request.  Also, my mail is about 90/10, with the majority saying, "Put up the old stuff."  Please don't jump on me for "caving under pressure."  

3.) "Why did you delete the humor thread?"  This is a tough one.  First of all, after the ANOP, most of it was a bunch of one-liners in order to make, "overcomer status."  Although it was fun, it hurt many people, the very people we wanted to see delivered.  In time, perhaps they will want to laugh and poke fun, and they are free to do so.  I won't be deleting anymore posts on the BB.  I got rid of the Voting section, for the same reason that last years' presidential ballots are thrown out.  There is no need for them, unless Gore wants a further recount.  ;D

4.)  "Is George just going to skate?"  I have no control over this.  I can't press charges against him.  There are people who can, and perhaps they will, but it is their business.  My ministry was to expose. I also found salvation in this exposure, and I learned some things about myself, which I needed to repent of.  God is not too happy with George, Betty, David, and those who still follow them.  I think He is quite capable of bringing justice to them, without my help.  If someone disagrees with me, they are free to start their own website.  I disagreed with the way George was being protected, so I did something about it.  Others are free to do the same, but my work in that area is over.  I shall devote my time to healing and reconcilliation.

5.) This is the big one.

What is being done for Judy and Rachel?  First, I want to add Rebecca and David to this list as well.  Judy has been truly apologized to, by people who were formerly in leadership.  Judy will be receiving restitution, although no words, or money, or punishment could ever give her back what has been taken from her. Rachel has not been forgotten, and she will also be apologized to, but we all felt that Judy needed priority, and that Rachel could take comfort in this.  There are many wrongs that still need righting. If someone wants to give, contact Rachel or myself.  I would prefer the latter, because I am trying to co-ordinate how to get things to Judy.

Look on the main page, sometime later today, and you will find that there is another, perhaps more important gift to give to Judy.  Keep your eyes open.

Parting Words:

Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled AGAIN with  a yoke of bondage.  Gal 5:1


May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you spirit, Amen.

Brent Tr0ckman

Hi Brent, thanks for the update, and I like you rejoice that I will be able to go back to HB/Long Beach meetings when back in Cali (If they still exist), without having to get "THOSE LOOKS", and it is very refreshing to hear from ones of old.

While I am at it, no I am not going to make HB my fellowship (I know this question is being asked to a lot of people that have left from the Lodges).  Lord is using me here, and the past year+ I have been blessed to be allowed in helping in one of the ministries as well.  For those the Lord is leading to stay it is nice to be able to call you brethern and get a warm response in return now.

Lord Bless,
G

Well, Danny, I believe it is a public issue as that was the doctrinal basis for the "carrot on the string in front of the horse" that motivated (by fear) people to perform for the assembly leaders.  I don't know what else to say.

"Any and All Topics
Anything goes, no editing, no deleting"

What happened to "no deleting" ?  
Man, I'm going to miss those posts.  No more dork-eepers?  No more funny George-pictures?  Oh the inhumanity!  I don't suppose there'd be a way to get them back, would there?   I'll have to try to remember what we said for the sake of posterity :)
How are we all supposed to look back on this someday and laugh about it all?  ;D

As far as the other stuff - why not leave it up?  It's the truth, that hasn't changed.  There's still some reconciliation to be done, I'm concerned that people's pride might get the better of them and soon it will be, "oh, what we did wasn't so bad", or "I don't remember it that way", or "really, I didn't know."  

Danny Edwards,

     I have been reading your posts. Why have you not registered on this site officially?    I have to say that I am glad that good things are happening in SLO.  That is a beginning but there is much more than a work in Slo that needs to be taken care of. So it is only a beginning.  I think that before everyone jumps on the bandwagon, there needs to be a real follow thru on all accounts.  THe leadership has STUNK in following thru in almost everything they have set out to do.  So it is good that you have an accountability with someone outside the lodge.  Those within have gotten away with stuff for way to long.   But like you said it does not erase the past.  THere are many who still have aches and pains.  Have hurts and scars for so long they don't even know who they are anymore.
     I know that you have carried the title of savior ( small letters) around with you for a very long time.  If there was a work in trouble ( St. Louis, Slo etc...) , they sent you to "save " them from going under , if you will.  That can really give a person a big head.  I hope that you have been humbled from that term or title in your life.  I know one person in particular that you have personally damaged very deeply and you DEFINITELY at the very least owe that one a serious apology.  You have devistated that one with your arrogance and know it all attitude.  It is by God's mercy that that person still has a walk with the Lord at all.  You handled that situation with God's child in a manner that is despicable.  If you want to know who this person is you can personally e-mail me thru this site.  
     On the contrary to what you wrote to Garth, this is INDEED the time to dive into what you believe.  People need to know if you are the leader of the pack now out there in SLO.  That which you said you believed before and stood by with George and others, all of a sudden you are saying you did not believe.  So what are we supposed to believe about you?  You need TO BE WILLING to tell what you believe on doctrinal issues out loud on this site and in public.  If you are making a stand for justice and a difference on the contrary to what you have said for sooooooooooo long then make a difference here and now.  State your beliefs, we need to hear them.  THis is the time.  After all some of the hurts and offences have come about because of your very stand from what you said you believed.  This is a part of the MESS that you need to clean up.  You no longer are in control of what people think and do and believe.  God is the only one who has that right.  What you believe on doctrinal isssues is important.    It screwed many a people up.  It turned many away.  So now is the time to be willing, and now is the time to state what you believe.  People are not going to let you off that easy after years and years of watching you kissing up.    I have seen how you have damaged some.  You don't set the rules nor the pace........anymore.  So when someone asks you something in light of what may be important to them, so do the usual and blow them off when you think the time is right?  Sounds like some things have not changed.  If you are going to make a difference, make one by not telling ones what you are willing or not willing to do at your time line.  That sounds like the same old control tactics.

Hear, Hear, Sue.  Very well put.

Arthur

Why not, Danny?  I think now is an excellent time.  You said yourself that you "know of no false doctorine that is allowed".  No doubt then you would have no trouble at all expounding the true doctorine for us.  So tell us, won't you please, what is the true and sound teaching on inheritance.  Thanks buddy.


What do you mean by "we are letting"?  Do you have some influence over these autonomous assemblies?

BTW, what are you implying by citing Heb 12:14 at the top of your post?

Arthur

 P. S.    Danny, there is no leading brother here with the first name of Tim.

Like many (if not all) of us who have left, we have many questions about doctrine and practice in the ministry.  I know many have addressed Danny.  I am thankful for his openness.  My question is, where are the others.  Danny was not the only one in leadership.  I would like to see postings by the others who are/were in leadership as well as Danny.

If you are/were in leadership, please respond on this BB.  There are many lives that need healing.  Unless they see you are real, they probably will not approach you concerning offences.

Eric, well put.  I admit is nice that some have said come and talk to them and all that Jazz, and I know that we as the offended need to go to the one that offended us.

BUT from what I have been hearing from many and leaders being sorry and repentant, they know admit they wrong many by following man, and they know that this web site and BB are out here and quite a few have visited I take it.  So here is their chance to reach MANY and to being to show some fruits worth of repentance.  

Danny again Lord Bless you for coming on, and getting things started, but it is only a start (and I believe you know that).

Lord Bless,
G

Greeting!

So glad to see the repentance has started. Its amazing at times to see how God will move.

Please feel free to contact me at ptemplin7@earthlink.net. My wife and I live in the the Bay Area in Redwood Shores (Redwood City). I'm currently looking for work so I have time to communicate.

Danny, The Lord will truly bless you and the other brothers as you repent. I was astonioshed top see Kirk's personal letter to me two years ago. I'm glad to see that you all have started on the path of making things right.

Lord bless while you work though this time. I'll be praying for you all and the rest of the gatherings who will no doubt be in great distress now that the truth is be "preached from the housetops."

Take care, please feel free to let contact me. That includes all those who might know me that are still in SLO.

Your Brother in Christ,

Paris

Greetings Everyone,

Got this from Jeff Lehmkuhl...He's not really an internet guy...Although, he's trying.  I'm his Bro-in-law and this is the first email I've ever got from him.  He's not a big writer either.

He said I could post it.  For those who are curious, I was the guest at that wonderful, historic Saturday, January 18th meeting in SLO.  Grace moved that day and on the next day January 19th, the world was shaking and the grace seems to have become a Tsunami .  

God is working in Jeff and Nancy Lehmkuhl's life in a very powerful way.  They are both rejoicing together with their children...As you can read below, Jeff doesn't have all the answers...But, it's a new day for him, too.  He is as excited as a new calf skipping out of the stall. Feel free to write him at SLOAuto@aol.com


Dear Chuck,

Thanks so much for all of your help over the weekend.  Truly the Lord used you as a real peacemaker in my eyes.  Thank you.  Thank you.  I wonder at the Lord in all His goodness at the weekend that we had.  How I wish all could have been there.  

I logged onto the ga site to try to leave a post but can't really figure out the right way to do it.  I am just not good at this stuff and I don't seem to have the time to get good at it.  Brent showed me some emails from you.  I want to answer some questions from you.  First, the reason you don't hear from me is that I usually only read emails at my aol address.  I just am not around a computer enough to be able to keep up with it.  Second, you made the comment that you are not sure that I get it all yet.  You are very right, I don't get it all yet.  Even now many things are dawning on me.  Do I want to understand?  Yes.  Will I in time?  By the grace of God, yes.  It isn't easy to just say, "Well I was following a man and now I am not."  Many of us were following Christ with all of our hearts but were very blind to many things.  No excuses.  Just the way that it is.  

I want to post something that would attempt to communicate my sorrow and repentance and open myself up to those who might want to speak to me and show me more wrongs that I have done so that I can make them right. Perhaps you can help to do this.  I am rejoicing but I am very sorrowful and am spinning.

Thank you for all of your help and prayers.  We are in the thick of pursuing many plans of repentance.  I look forward to speaking with you.  Greet Ann and all of the kids.

Lord bless you,

Jeff

Dear Sue,
Thanks for your note and thank you for reminding me of the person that I offended, as a matter of fact in the 4 ½ years I spent in Saint Louis I can think of two people that I greatly offended, I will seek them out. I can see how hurt you've been, we the leadership, have hurt so many over the years,  now we are endeavoring to get right with man and God, I know this is true for many.  

Thanks, I will register on the site as soon as I figure out how and then you can send me her email.

Sue, will you forgive me for my part in all the excesses of which you  list?  For any pain that I have caused?  God has shaken my life.  Yes, we do have accountability with local leadership, if it makes sense and you want to meet or talk to those leaders, maybe Brent could let you know how.  I am currently reviewing everything in my  life, nothing is off limits, my past behavior, my doctrine, my relationships.  I'm reviewing everything. So, please don't press me on my beliefs. Right now, I really don't know anything except that God's goodness and grace are real. His mercy to me is real. For me, it's a new world, God has brought me down to the dust.  Since Saturday, spiritually, I've been absolutely  laid out before God.  There's nothing left. Everything you are saying I deserve.  Will you forgive me?  Sue, I want your forgiveness and the forgiveness of others that I have hurt more than anything I have ever wanted in my  entire life. If you know of others and if there are others reading this post I will get things right with them. Please will you forgive me?

 

Dear Garth,

Will you forgive me for hidden pride exposed and condescension?  You're are right I'm not in any position in "letting" or "not letting" anything happen, God has to work in lives and in my own.  When and if He does clarify things for us here in SLO, the only influence I'd hope to wield is that of love and goodwill towards all believers in this area.  Garth, pray for me, I need it.  If you want to talk call me, I'd love to speak with you. I posted my numbers on my note to Sue.

Peace, Danny

Glad to see you Paris.  How I have missed you...

I'll send more via email, but suffice it to say that I remember you quite clearly (Supremacy).

Is your mom doing well?

Take care,

Corey

Arthur, I am sorry I guess part of the last post was supposed to be to you.  As far as the holiness verse, the emphasis was on peace.

Sue, I meant Paul Timm

To those that may not know. Somehow it must have been repressed to the saints in SLO and elsewhere.

My mother went to be with the Lord in Sept. 1999. Unfortunately she was not able to see the end results of God's working by her seeing and witnessing the abuse in 1993. This was where I got involved and crossed David as well. The Lord used to shake up my house of cards and as a result I left a year later.

We both cared deeply for Judy and her situation. We were even denied access to see her when we visited SLO in 1995.

Brent or Rachel, I sent you an email too, but please pass on my greetings to Judy, little David and Rebecca. When they are ready I would love to talk with them.

Saints in SLO, you've started down a hard path but the end result will be the increase for God's kingdom. I am available via email or phone at ptemplin7@earthlink.net or at 650.508.0877.

I look forward to the renewed fellowship and seeing the happenings on this thread.

In Christ,  Paris Templin

Brent,

I think what you still have up at the website is very helpful and acturate. I think the information there is appropriate for the other gatherings to know of the facts. This would be a great resource for them.

Keep up the good work!!!

Lord Bless, Paris

Danny,

This is why I said what I did.   It was in an effort to help you through this transitional period.  You and others have practised falsehood for many years.  You lied to people to cover and protect the ministry at the sake of people's souls.  Without question, it will not be easy to immediatley cease those subtle practises.
When you say something that my conscience says, hey wait a minute, there's something wrong here, I'm going to tell you about it to help you stop doing that.
Your conscience must be weakend from all those years of supressing it, as well as forcing, coercing, intimidating or aiding those entrusted into your care to do the same.
The conscience must not be ignored, let's help build yours back up.
Danny, I praise God for your and others' repentance.  I have yet to talk to you personally to see for myself, but I hope to do so soon, and from what Brent says, I anticipate that I too can wholeheartedly join in with the thanksgiving and rejoicing.
Talk to you soon.

Arthur

There ya go Arthur!   ;)

I KNOW you will be overjoyed when you do talk to Danny.  I'll guarantee it.

Dear Friends, we are free.  Some see more than others,  but let's give people time.  I didn't see what I now know to be true the first day I left the Assembly, and neither will they.  Give God a chance to open their eyes, and then we can rejoice together!

OK, talk amongst yourselves......

Brent

What to do?

I'm am an outsider or was until a week ago, although, most of my family has had an association with the assembly for more than 25 years - my bothers-in-laws are Wes Cohen, Jeff Lehmkuhl, Mark Sjogren, Mike Miller, and Wayne Mathews.  I'm married to Ann Miller who is the younger sister of Pat Mathews, Mike Miller, Chris Sjogren, Nancy Lehmkuhl, and Becky Cohen.

I want to greet all of them now in the Love & Grace of God...Greetings Family! Peace to You! Grace to you!

A couple leaders (former leaders in the assemblies? / former assemblies?) and yes even a couple family members have asked me what they should do.  I am not going to tell them what they should do, but I will tell them what I would do to make things right.  As I've been watching these boards and I think Danny Edwards is setting the pace for all current and former assembly leaders. What feats of grace and godliness!  This to me is what Christianity is all about. I used to say "If it weren't for Jesus I wouldn't want to be a Christian."  Well, what I'm seeing now is, at least for me monumental, it makes me want to be a Christian.  We're witnessing a miracle!  I've talked to Danny and others - I can tell you he is burning up the wires in getting right with men and women around the country...Whatever, he hoped to be in his old life he now is in my mind.  Indeed, a new day seems to be dawning.

Well, what would I do...

1.  RUN! don't walk...RUN!...Get to a lonely place, alone and take only a notebook, maybe a bible, but not necessarily a bible. Definitely a notebook and a pen.

2. I'd pray, "God give me a keen rememberance of anyone and everyone I could have hurt, anyone who could have been stumbled, anyone that I have sinned against over my many years as a believer."

3. Remember as many people as is possible and write down their names.  Also, write down the names of any person who might be able to lead me to people who are hurt. I'd cast a dragnet out for the offended. Maybe even hang-out at a Web site where I can quickly build my own robust list of the injured, the stumbled, the offended.

4. I'd get into the best long distance phone program money could buy...2000 minutes - NO! ...5000 minutes, maybe ...10,000 just to be safe.

5. Next, I'd burn up the airwaves with calls, calls and more call and where possible I'd get in my car and drive, and maybe get on a plane and go beg for forgiveness.  Beg! Beg! Beg! Grovel in the dirt and beg for forgiveness.  Beg without a shred of dignity, so that even Michal would despise me.

6. I'd try to do this incredibly fast because as people are realizing repentance is going on, and that they as yet had not heard from me, they would naturally assume either I forgot their hurt or that I hadn't fealt that I was guilty. I would understand time was not be on my side. It's like when you argue with your spouse - When in doubt you apologize and seek forgiveness, and make things right even if there is only a tinge of concern for offense. If I had sinned against a broad community I would be seeking everyone's forgiveness. No parsing of the past.

7. How to repent? If it were me, and I was in danger of permanently pushing someone into the gall of bitterness and hate...Okay, you asked.  I'd go buy a suit or shirt that I really can't afford and some nice pants.  Then I'd go find a pale and a bucket and find the nearest sandlot and hand scoop a bucket full of dirt.  I'd run to that person and falling down, I'd rent my clothes, tearing them up, maybe bringing some scissors along the exercise and I'd dump the dirt on my head, falling down and riggling around in it...All the while moaning for forgiveness.

Oh, why not a bring a bible when making up my list? Cause in my mind until I did got right with all those I had sinned against, God and I wouldn't be on speaking terms.

That's how I'd do it.

Chuck Vanasse
chuck@vanant.com

Chuck, I pray that a lot of leaders see this posting.  I can testify that already I have been contacted by one (if you are that one and reading this I will be getting back to you soon), as well one has asked that I call them.

Lord is moving, and I can say this is waking me up to ever let the Lord search my heart constantly.

Lord Bless,
George

Chuck

I need your permission to put this up on the main page of the website.  ASAP.

This is exactly what is needed.  Thank you!

Brent

As a current 'lodger', may I tack this thought onto Chuck's post?  This is not just for 'leadership'.  We all need to do this.  Don't forget your family in your accounting.  That is where I need to start.

Here !  Here ! Chuck !
Aplause !  Aplause !!
This is what is needed at this hour.  Put it up on the main page !!!

Rob Kazarinoff

Amen Tim and Chuck!

I agree Brent, put it up!

Hi all,

Let me add my two cents to what Brent posted.

Remember where things were two weeks ago.  Some wonderful changes have been made.  Eyes have been opened.  Minds have changed.  Forgiveness has been asked and given.  

This is God working through His Spirit and His Word.  

I don't think the assemblies can ever go back to what they were, (though some might try to sustain or return to the "status quo ante bellum").  However, it remains to be seen what they will become.  Opening the door and restoring real fellowship comes first.  There is much work ahead for many people.

Remember what happened when the Soviet Union collapsed.  Several years of profound changes before things seemed to stabilize.  A very different situation, yes, but one thing was very similar.  A centralized, dictatorial control system was suddenly and unexpectedly removed.  In that detail, there is much similarity.  No one has been prepared to deal with this.  It will be on-the-job training.

I really don't think this is a good time to start a big wrangle over doctrine.  Let's rejoice in what God has done so far, and pray about what is yet to be done.

Is that about two cents worth, or do I have change coming?

God bless,
Thomas Maddux

Danny,

I will lay off some hard questions for now, because I appreciate your courage to come forth and be vulnerable.  I am wondering if other "leaders" will have the guts that you have.  I have a feeling that many think all this is a SLO/David/George anomaly.  I left 3 years ago because I saw major abusive-type problems with the whole "assembly system".  I saw that it was from the very top, and that all the leaders and workers were only perpetuating it.  Nobody would listen to reason.  I think all the leaders and workers that promoted the work, need to do what you are doing.  

Chuck, George, Brent, Tim, Rob, Paris, Tom and especially Garth, and others, thanks for the posts and for all of the personal emails, I was pretty depressed this afternoon and didn't want to come back to this page, but all the emails and the reasonableness of the recent posts are very encouraging.  Danny

Tom,

Agreed.  Danny's heart is on the go...Doctrinal debates aren't going to do much healing right now.  I don't know what Danny would say, but in six months much of Danny's doctrine is going to be quite different about a lot of things as will most of the assembly's leadership and former leadership.

Needless to say, there's a time to teach and there's a time to act out what you know.  We've arrived at one of those times.  To Act and Do!  Danny is doing what I think hundreds of others might like to do, probably even dream to do, but are still searching for the courage.  

Dear people - right NOW - Let's pray for grace for folks.  They don't need our sarcasm or jeering...they're afraid, their whole world's come crashing down. Think of the mercy and love you'd want.  When they take their first steps of vulnerability, let's not bite them.  Let's not become what we ourselves loath. As long as they are doing what's right, they need our affirmation.  Danny's invited people to call him. Let's call to affirm him.  

Again...This is what I'd do, leader or not...

1.  RUN!  Don't walk ...RUN!...Get to a lonely place, alone and take only a notebook, maybe a bible, but not necessarily a bible. Definitely a notebook and a pen.

2. I'd pray, "God give me a keen remembrance of anyone and everyone I could have hurt, anyone who could have been stumbled, anyone that I have sinned against over my many years as a believer."

3. Remember as many people as is possible and write down their names.  Also, write down the names of any person who might be able to lead me to people who are hurt. I'd cast a dragnet out for the offended. Maybe even hang-out at a Web site where I can quickly build my own robust list of the injured, the stumbled, the offended.

4. I'd get into the best long distance phone program money could buy...2000 minutes - NO! ...5000 minutes, maybe ...10,000 just to be safe.

5. Next, I'd burn up the airwaves with calls, calls and more calls and where possible I'd get in my car and drive, and maybe get on a plane and go beg for forgiveness.  Beg! Beg! Beg! Grovel in the dirt and beg for forgiveness.  Beg without a shred of dignity, so that even Michal would despise me.

6. I'd try to do this incredibly fast because as people are realizing repentance is going on, and that they as yet had not heard from me, they would naturally assume either I forgot their hurt or that I hadn't fealt that I was guilty. I would understand time was not be on my side. It's like when you argue with your spouse - When in doubt you apologize and seek forgiveness, and make things right even if there is only a tinge of concern for offense. If I had sinned against a broad community I would be seeking everyone's forgiveness. No parsing of the past.

7. How to repent? If it were me, and I was in danger of permanently pushing someone into the gall of bitterness and hate...Okay, you asked.  I'd go buy a suit or shirt that I really can't afford and some nice pants.  Then I'd go find a bucket and locate the nearest sandlot and then I'd hand scoop a bucket full of dirt, maybe two buckets full.  I'd run to that offended, sinned against person and falling down, I'd rent my clothes, tearing them up and I'd dump the dirt all over my head, falling down, the wriggling around in it...All the while moaning for forgiveness, begging for forgiveness.

Oh, why not bring a bible when making up my list? Cause in my mind until I did get right with all those I had sinned against, God and I wouldn't be on speaking terms.

That's how I'd do it.

Chuck Vanasse

Danny,

I would like to thank you for your example of humility and repentance in opening yourself up to those you have offended.

I would like to do the same.  I have already had the opportunity to speak to a number of people and ask for their forgiveness, and I have made attempts to do the same with others.  I have also publicly asked for forgiveness.  However, I know that there may be others who I have hurt in one way or another.   Also, for those I have contacted, I may well have not touched on all the issues of my sin.  My desire is to make things right.  If you want to contact me through e-mail, my address is jdenner@ameritech.net.  Or, if you would like to address things with me on the BB, I am willing for that as well.

I am entrusting myself to His mercy and grace,

Joe

Danny Edwards:

" If you want to know who this person is you can personally e-mail me thru this site.  "

This is the route at which I prefer you to ask me for a name.  I do not wish at this time to call you or to have you call me.  Sue

Also Danny, when you mentioned that we could talk to the leadership out here in Lombard b/c they are re-thinking everything .... there is not one leading brother that I would like to talk to at all.  I don't want to know how they are re-thinking anything.  Why would I want to hear about the control tactics, unhealthiness of that place and how its a mess.  I already knew that, and we left for those very reasons as well as MANY others!!!!  I am moving forward and away from that ministry / cult.  

Danny

I just wanted to Thank You!!!!!!  I am encouraged at your willingness to answer all of the questions you are getting.  I don't know you very well personally, but am rejoiceing at what God is  doing through and in you.  It is a healing process for people to finally get someone in "leadership" to answer questions without the circular arguments.  So Again Thank You!!  I am praying for you!  For me there was some good and some bad things but I am trusting God  and Believing his promise in:

Ro 8:28 And we know that God caused all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

Lorretta Buchmann

Hello Everyone

I just got back from a prayer meeting in SLO.  Yes, it was what was once known as the Assembly prayer meeting.

It was great.  What a difference.  God is so good, but please pray for these folks.

The main request was that the Lord would enable them to make things right with those they offended, and that they would be able to restore the reproach they brought on the name of Christ in the community.

Hopefully, the whole congregation will join us at Calvary Chapel this Sunday.

Is this different enough for you all?

Our God is an awesome God!

Brent

Greetings everyone,

Chuck and Tom are right.  Let's save the doctrinal issues for later.  Please, let's keep our heads and guard our hearts.  Think about what has just happened.  A huge bomb has exploded this last weekend leaving body parts and blood.  As parametics will we now discuss with the wounded the fine doctrinal points of bomb making and what would have prevented this?  IT'S EXPLODED ALREADY !!!  There are dear brothers and sisters in Jesus Christ who desperately need help right now.  If we don't reconcile our relationships NOW there won't be anyone to discuss doctrine with.

Think about it,

Rob Kazarinoff

Hi Brent,

Just got off the phone with Corey. We had a great conversation and renewal of fellowship. How great to see that God is at work.

I hope the good work continues and that what has started will continue to grow. I know of at least one other gathering looking to make things right since I was contacted directly by them.

I sincerely hope that what I have heard about the gatherings here in SFO is not true. Hopefully more info will come to light soon.

Dear ones out there. There is indeed a great work of God going on. Give it time, I think we will see some works worthy of the repentance soon.

Danny and other leading brothers, Keep it up. Your labor is not in vain. The soul searching may be hard but there is a great reward for it. May the Lord bless you all as you struggle as many of us have to find the truth and Gods leading.

Keep it up. More details as you get them Brent or Danny or .... would be great to see the Lord's working in the life of his people.

Lord Bless you all.  Paris Templin

Another question:  Why did this thread stop all of a sudden at 2am?

Jack

I am writing my last post or one of my last posts.  I have stated where I stand and what I think needs to take place.  I cannot answer for other gatherings as they have not gone through what we have in San Luis Obispo.  We are seeking to make things right in this community and to seek to clear the reproach to the name of Christ due to our sins and arrogance.  This is taking place and WE have decided to;

1.   Seek the help of local leadership, mainly through Brian Stupar the pastor of Calvary Chapel in San Luis Obispo.  He has been a great blessing and a fair moderator.  He has agreed to hold US and Brent accountable for our agreements at that key meeting last Saturday.
2.   Show a token of goodwill and thanksgiving by our assembly worshiping with Calvary this Sunday, testifying to God’s Goodness and our commitment to serve and be one with all Christians in this community.  
3.   Continue to reach out to ones that have been offended or stumbled in this area.
4.   Remove all of George’s books, literature and cancel tape ministry.
5.   Speak at a San Luis Obispo pastors’ prayer breakfast and ask them for forgiveness for what I mentioned in the opening statement.
6.   We have been having open discussions for all that are meeting with us to discuss any and all topics, we are not making rash decisions, but are bringing these ideas to prayer and seeking the Lord for our future..
7.   Brent has the goal for his website to be shut down in the future or be so changed that it would not be recognizable from it’s former use, it already has changed a lot.  His goal was to expose the unfruitful works of darkness for which he has and it has brought about a tremendous humbling across the land.  
8.   His goal was also for Judy and Rachel to be reached out to and they are and will continue to be.

In conclusion, I don’t know who is reading this, but it is time to humble ourselves.  God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.  A friend from Lincoln, Brian wrote me this “I believe that God has allowed this ministry to be sifted.  He has brought forth an exposing and judgment.  Now, however, I believe we are experiencing a window of grace and mercy to make things right... If we humble ourselves and get out of His way, He will do miracles.  I am seeing that happen in SLO and I'm half way across the country.  I pray He will do that every where”, I agree.  We are guilty of allowing a man too much power and influence, we have put George up on a pedestal and allowed him to boast of his exploits, tell of his greatness.  I know I have learned many great things of Christ over the years concerning His Cross, His Church and His Kingdom of which I will by  His grace hold forth until He comes.  But for all of the ways we allowed ‘the work’ to go on in it’s form and for George to have such control, as well to have an elitist attitude towards other Christians and groups, I repent and by His grace will never serve a system, but God only and Christ’s body and the perishing souls of the unsaved.  The verses the Lord gave me yesterday are from Acts 5:19-20 “But the angel of the Lord by night opened the prison doors, and brought them forth, and said, Go, stand and speak in the temple to the people all the words of this life.”

Lord bless all of you, Danny Edwards

If you want to contact me the best way is to email me at tosetfree@sbcglobal.net

I need to weigh in on this one.

I have been accountable to Bryan Stupar and other pastors in this area since the inception of this website.  My problem was with pride creeping into a few of my writings.  My problem was not the website, nor was it my actions to expose the darkness in order to see many of you delivered.  That is my calling  and ministry, which is not over, but has changed.  I am not the problem, nor is the website.  In fact, the website has been an amazing blessing.  God has used, and continues to use this website.

I am not going to take it down, until it is time to do so.  It has, and will continue to change, as God leads.  Many people are finding help with their hurts and anger here, and that is as it should be.  Also, the people who perpetrated the abuse, the physical as well as the spiritual, are able to see, by reading here, just how devastating their actions have been.  This is a good thing.  Shine the Light, seek reconciliation, not excuses!


There is one other thing, that has come up a number of times lately, so I know I must address it:

My sin of words, is not to be compared to the sins of the ministry of George Geftakys.  The fact that we all followed a Jezebel, and her adulterous husband, and on top of that acted like we were superior to all other Christians, is a sin of such greater magnitude than that of sarcastic and prideful writing that it is ludicrous to compare the two.

Am I repenting of my repentance?  In no way. However, I am not going to let the focus change from the fact that we were all idolators in Georges house, propping up a thoroughly evil man, shift to the fact that I used biting and hurtful language at times.

I have learned through all of this, but the fact that I wasn't perfect does not discount the message I brought.  Remember, the Lord used a donkey at one time.  I am a sinner, saved by grace.

Don't let the focus shift.  I am dead serious about this.  Check yourselves, and stop and think about what you are saying.

Yes, I am accountable to my pastor, and was long before last Saturday.  However, let's keep things in perspective here.  The Assembly was dark.  So dark that George's close associates were actually surprised to find out that he was an evil man.  Why is it that others could see it so clearly?

That is the question that you should be asking, and pondering.  

Here's a new topic for discussion:  What is idolatry?

In His love,  Brent Tr0ckman

Wonderful, Danny.   Very, very encouraging.  Lord Bless you Roberto, Ray & Jeff...

Chuck Vanasse
chuck@vanant.com

Idolatry! Yes! ....The adoration of George was Idolatry.  

Brent, you hit the peg square on its head, my friend!

I don't think anyone in or out of the assembly would disagree with you - now.  George was put on a pedastal.  I would submit that from this.."idolatry".. 99% of all problems the assembly ever had flowed from that pitiful wretch.  May God have mercy on that man.

We should pray that now that God has exposed this man as the fraud that he is -  that the gatherings formerly under his authority, as Danny has affirmed for SLO, will throw off his ways!

"Ding-dong the witch is dead...Everything has turned to color!"

A new days has dawned people!

As these dear folks attempt to get right with God and men, let's receive them as we would hope to be received by them!

May God Have Mercy On Us All !

I know some have questioned me in light of bringing up the topics I have brought up on my thread called, "I'm waiting for answers".  This is my 3rd day looking at this website and the first posting.  My brain has been exploding and my tears have been gushing.  For 19 years I was being used by a selfish man, and now I am reading about all this darkness that was called "holiness", "unity" and "being the faithful remnant".  Maybe I haven't said everything right, but please understand what I'm going through.  I don't want to be in bondage again to the Geftakys culture.

As I stated before, I do not know exactly know what I will do in light of fellowship.  I really don't.  Everything's up in the air.

Jack

I like the point that Brent made.  Please don't make the mistake of shifting the focus of what really is going on right now.  Yes there is sarcasm on the BB.  But, yes there was alot more sarcasm within the lodges for many, many years.  Sarcasm that ripped on other churches, sarcasm that ripped on those that left, and sarcasm towards anyone that disagreed with the head.

The focus should be on finding real Christianity.  The focus should be on a humbling of self.  The lodge humbled me and nearly destroyed me.  Let's be real.  It is the lodge mentality that would knit-pick a minor point and miss the major one.  

Many of my posts have been attacked.  And I have heard report of people within the lodge complaining of too much sarcasm.  Let's be real.  Why look at what is not important?  Why not face reality?  

Idolatry is exactly right.  Many will read this and not understand at first.  Because they will not be able to see God without reference to the assembly.  Yes, there were some good things there!  Mainly because you had a Bible and there was love between brethren.  But the "system" was sick.  And the "system" failed.  And if we would be honest, the "system" was unfruitful.  

So many tried so hard to explain all that.  It is a shame that it had to come down to this present situation.  People that loved God's people cried out with many tears (I am one of them!) and tried to get someone to listen.  But those who opened their mouths with truth were rebuked, treated SARCASTICALLY, called "accusers of the brethren", and some even excommunicated.  And now those people are once again accused of too much sarcasm.  

Let's get real.  

Couple of things:

1.  I'm not convinced that the problems were 99% from George.  There wouldn't be an assembly if it was just George, now would there be.  Where would George be if it weren't for the initial group of people that listened to him or the ones he hand-picked to be leaders.  "We are the Lord's servants" they said, "God put us in authority over you, you must listen to us."  See the articles by Steve Irons and others...oh sorry, I forgot, they're not on the website anymore.  Where would George be if it weren't for other men greedy for power rising through the ranks of doorkeeper, then leading brother, then elder?  After a few years in the Assembly, I came to realize that I probably would never be in leadership because I refused to give up my conscience and bow down to George like the leaders did.  (BTW, That is why these men must step down, if they truly are repentant.  Seeing as how they obtained their leadership by unjust means, and were not appointed by God, but by George!)
After I saw what a doorkeeper really was I wanted nothing to do with them.  

2.  Brent is right.  If one errs by going a bit overboard in speaking out against the assembly, its leaders, and its pracitses, that does not compare at all with sins of the assembly.  Maybe Noah got a little carried away when he was telling the wicked world at that time that they needed to repent.  Maybe he said, "You need to repent.  You're all wicked, and your dog too."  Ok, maybe the dog wasn't wicked.  Big deal.  The wicked world would have no leg to stand on before God saying, "He told us our dog was wicked too and we know that's not right, so that's why we wouldn't listen to him."  Um, no...and the flood came.

Arthur

Arthur

All of the articles are available on request.  Don't say they aren't on the website.  The main page states that they are.  I'll send the whole package to anyone who asks.

Because of the recent display of grace, we are now able to deal mano y mano.  We do not have to "tell the church," to the same extent as before.

Do you think that Rachel and Judy's stories are too creampuff?  Careful my friend.

Brent

kk, sorry about the articles comment, that was kinda low, forgive me bro.  I don't think every knows what articles were online, especially those who are just now leaving and who just now have the freedom to view the website.


I don't understand what you mean.  No, I think they are right on.  That's not what I was saying about the dog.  Is that what you are referring to?

Arthur

Am I just terribly clueless in all of this? The leading men in the SLO assembly who have done so much to hurt and mislead are still in power? Oh yea, you are subjecting yourselves to Calvary Chapel but wouldn't the wiser thing be to step down. You men have sinned. What is happening with Roberto and Jeff? Let me remind you that both of these men knew what was going on with spousal abuse and where were the shepherds. These men are unfit to watch the fold. Until I see fruit, I don't buy this......

Heide C. Johnson

Heide,

I stand with you.  I think people need to remember that forgiveness is a must, but it doesn't mean you have to set yourself up for more abuse.  It wouldn't be wise to submit to them!

My name is Phil Strangman. I was born and raised in St. Louis, and grew up in the assembly, and still go, along with my parents and younger brother, which make up the rest of my family.

This is a little nerve-wracking for me to write here. I've seen some messages of real care and love, and I've seen some posts where people have just chewed others up. Whatever happens happens...

As this stuff has been coming down, I've felt betrayed. You all have to understand, I am an "AK", a "mat boy", whatever you'd like to call me. I grew up watching video seminars with br. George on the big screen and just about every year we'd make the big trek to Champaign, IL to listen to seven long messages. The George Geftakys I saw seemed to be a man who had served the LORD for a really long time, who was very wise, who understood the Bible well, and so on. For nineteen years (that's how old I am), that's what I thought he was. I went on two teen teams, and I had several scattered brief conversations with George. He seemed like a really good guy. Once when he was in St. Louis he gave me a promise in John 12: 26- "If any man serve me , let him follow me: and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour." I saw a George who would travel more than half of each year to places like Nigeria, Kenya, Hong Kong, England, France, recently Hungary, and others. That was my perspective for my whole life.

But now, 2003 sure kicks off with a bang alright!! Br. George...excommunicated, a hypocrite. This is almost like being raised Catholic and then being told when you're 19 that your priest or even archibishop or even pope has been molesting little kids! This is something that is still sinking in. This is tough. It's tough adjusting to somethin I should have known already, almost like X-Files, you can't trust any man completely beyond the shadow of a doubt. Only God. Only, only God. Let that be stamped into my skull. When it comes to older, wise Christians, yes they are my brothers, yes I will listen to what they have to say, but when it just comes to straight up blind faith and trust, only, only God.

So now, all these revelations are coming down the wire. Br. George, an excommunicated, unrepentant man. David G., an wife-beater. So and so, and so and so...rumours fly all around like gunfire in a battle. My world is somewhere between upside down and sideways.

What I am going to do now? (Why is your article so long, you're probably wondering.) I'm just going to say why I'm staying. Let the flaming begin! Let the "you're just a pawn in the hands of those scoundrels you foolish little assembly rat!!"s begin!

Of course, everyone must make up in his or her mind whether to stay or go. I'm not here to tell you all what to do. Of course I'd love to see everyone stay, no one wants to see friends that you've seen frequently throughout the week suddenly appear less frequently, but "let every man be convinced in his own mind." No problem! That's exactly what needs to be done, for people to think on their own and not just blindly go where they're told.

The past couple of weeks I've had to make up my own mind. I understand too that as time goes on and things change, my decision could change as well. For now, by the grace of God this is what I'm doing.

Yes this post is long. Almost done hopefully. It's simple really why I'm still here. First is the obvious. I've grown up with these people! They are God's children and they are also my friends! I don't want to leave.
Second, the more important one. There is love here in St. Louis. They say it used to not be this way. I don't remember that time, I guess I was too young. There have been people who have voluntarily taken people into their homes, letting them borrow their cars (in the winter!), and who are traveling down to a nursing home in the middle of a lower-class neighborhood and preaching to people who most of the time may not even understand a word they're saying, going almost every week! The love can be seen in other ways, but those come to my mind.

What causes that? George? No way! He preached, he didn't go on outreach on Sunday afternoons. I'm not saying that he had to, but he preached, he set a kind of example of how to be wise or whatever. I can't think of anyone else who causes this! Can you? Do the "leading brothers" engineer this kind of thing? They all work and I'm sure they're tired every day they come home from work like any normal person with a job would. Is this happening to appease Br. George? He's excommunicated right now!! Yet this still goes on. Tonight, we didn't have a Bible Study like we normally do on Thursday nights because it was incredibly cold. No problem! One fella who's been coming out, it was his birthday, so we celebrate his birthday at the "brother's house"! Did we cower under our beds saying, "Must be still-no Bible Study!!"? No!!

Sorry, I got carried away. What I want to end this on is this: I've been reading the message board a lot the past few days, and I've read posts from other people who've felt betrayed just like I have. I see that some people here are frustrated, I just hope that there's no bitterness. I know I haven't had many of the experiences that others here have, and my purpose was not to supplant the credibility or witness of those people. I just wanted to encourage the ones who are hanging in there with this "Assembly" because I'm sure trying to hang in there too. I also wanted those who have left to hear the point of view of someone who's still "in fellowship", who has some of the same complaints, sadness, and such as them, and who is sticking around because he loves the people he's with and knows that, just like in other churches in St. Louis, God and His love are still "floating" around, in homes, cars, and schools.  I hope we realize that we all need each other- "in fellowship" and "not in fellowship". I hope the bitterness and deceit never comes in to these simple (and getting simpler every day) gatherings.I hope br. George realizes that he was deceived and really repents. I hope all those "in leadership" guard their hearts and repent if they haven't and still need too. I hope all those who aren't (like me) watch their hearts also. I hope God has mercy on all of us frail human beings.

As one sister wrote to me:
"Let start from the beginning...which is that we are both free now.  Clean slate, new faces, new believers , new journey, new beginning, new thoughts, and a renewed mind, and restored soul.  Can we start from there?  I would really like that!"

One of the complaints against the Assemblies has been the "controlling attitude" of not letting people make their own decisions.  Be careful of falling back into that.

Yes, seek godly counsel, but you can not live your life based on what others think, rather you must do what you know is right.

Whether you leave or stay you need to always ask the Lord what to do.  Trying to please people is a trap anyway.

I also feel like my very foundation has been shaken, and I am glad the Lord has given me two immutable things, His word and His person, as an anchor for my soul to cling to.

Hebrews 12: 26  whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven."
27  Now this, "Yet once more," indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.

Hebrews 6:17  Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath,
18  that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us.
19a  This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast

Phil, stand strong my Brother.

Jesusfreak:  I sense in your small response to Phil: "Phil, stand strong my brother", the former teaching of the assembly, I call it "the Us vs. Them teaching".  If this is not the case, please forgive me and bear with me as I share from my heart.  (If this doesn't apply to you, perhaps there are some on this board who can be edified by my thoughts.)

As Phil mentions in his post (thank you, Phil, for sharing so much with us) there is considered the "in fellowship" people and the "out of fellowship" people.  This is a sad way of looking at God's people.  There is no one true church.  There is no place where there is more "heavenly vision" as br. George puts it.  We see where this prideful, elitist attitude has led us to, haven't we?  One of the sins that God mentions he hates, is pride (see Proverbs 6:16-17.)   Please see NOTE.  

I am not saying that these gatherings cannot evolve into something that is pleasing to the Lord.  But it will only come by men who have been previously trained by George, humbling themselves and submitting themselves to a clearing of God's house.  There is dangerous teachings that have been indoctrinated in this place by this wicked man.  The one's who have stayed aren't even aware of what the teachings that are dangerous are!  That's why I am continually beating the drum, saying, bring in the local pastoral community to help with rebuilding.  Don't just take the teachings we have been indoctrinated with for decades and replace the old leadership with a new leadership but with the same teachings.

"And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.  But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved."  Luke 5:37-38

Heed the very next verse, verse 39, "No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new; for he saith The old is better."

The assembly, if it is to survive, needs to seek out the new wine.  If they will only say, we want the old wine, it will perish, most assuredly.


NOTE:  If anyone is going to say, ah, and yes the other sin God takes note of is sowing discord among brethren.  I want to respond even before you begin an argument with me.  This BB/website has never been about "sowing discord among brethren."  It has been about bringing to light the things of darkness, exposing the sins of men that were held in high esteem.  It is about men and women being able to make informed decisions on there own, not because they were told "the way it is" or "this is how to look at that."  

Keep dialogueing with us Jesusfreak, this is what is needed in this day, in this hour.

Phil:  Please imagine with me what those who have "left" feel like.  Many of us were "in fellowship" for more than a decade (I was in for 15 years, my husband for 20.)  Upon leaving, you lose all your friends.  No daily phone calls, no times of fellowship together, NOTHING.  You have no more friends, because the assembly was your life.  Your children are lucky if they have any friends because, they too have lost all their friends from the assembly.  You are called, divisive, a railer, the accuser of the brethren, etc.  

This is the reality for all those who have "left fellowship."   I understand your reasons for staying, partially being that of not wanting to lose all your friends, etc.   I've experienced it first hand.  But I am unwilling to stay with a system that has abused its members spiritually, causing scars that for some may never heal.  Perpetrating false teaching that is abhorrant to our Lord and savior.    Setting men up as god (which is idolatry) and if you are going to deny this, then how have we come to the place where one man falling has completely devastated the flock?

I meantioned this in one of my other posts, and i want to bring it up again.  Just because it was taught in "The Assembly" that we are to stand for and encourage our brethern, does not mean it is an exclusive teaching. Building up our brethern in Christ is a universal concept, and not based in any one gathering.   Please do not hold knee-jerk reactions to anything you see, but analyze and examine for meaning first, determine whether it is benificial or stumbling.  I am quite astounded that people get flamed on this forum for supporting each other.  Let the encouragments remain pure -- if you want healing to occur.

Verne, yes, my dad is still playing the banjo. I'll have to ask him if he still remembers you. What assembly did you used to be a part of?

Kimberley, a few things. I have to disagree with you about Jesusfreak's response to me. I think an "us vs. them" mentality would have been a post like, "Phil, stand strong and don't worry about what some of these other people here are telling you. You, you know how THEY are...." (i'm exaggerating a little)

Also, you have a good point about what is was like for you and your family to leave fellowship. I do want to ask you this, even if the saints immediately cut off all contact with you (which is not helpful), if you really had given up on the assembly, could not you and your family started making friends with saints at a different church and make the best out of a bad situation. If it was not that easy, though, let me know. Also, you seem to have had a much different attitude then Sue Xander did about leaving. I noticed on one of her posts that she did not want any communication with anybody from Lombard after three years and sounded angry when somebody tried to call her. You on the other hand sound like you wish somebody did tried to contact you. I think that's interesting. I think it shows something I've seen, that over the years, different "assemblys" became different in some ways, maybe even in going out to others in this case.

Also, Kimberley, many people here have commented about how there have been false teachings in the assembly "indoctrinated" by br. George, without actually saying what they are! I think I might know some of the things that people are disagreeing with, like inheritance or the 1 Cor. 11: "'don't say broken" deal, but could you and some of the other posters actually tell us what you're saying is false?

Peace,

Phil,  when I first came out of the assembly in October, 2002 I saw a several instances of false teaching being unrepented of.  Some originated with George and some with a local LB.  Since then I've seen much more, some are subtle and some are blatant.  I currently have 15 pages of documented false teaching.  This is in addition to what others have written.  The BB is not the place to post them.  I will briefly mention some here;

1.  The teaching of the Galatian Heresy is practiced in the assembly.  While we are taught it is all of grace, we are encouraged to strive to overcome (this contradicts I John 5:4-5).  Galatians 2:16 & James 2:14-26  are confused.  Because James refers to testifying justification.  Paul refers to once-for-all justification.  It is a testimony to do works, not to ensure our conditional salvation before God.  Man has nothing to boast about before God.  It is all of grace!

2.  "Making room for personal friendships in the house of God is not what God wants.  This is sin!"  This was taught often in the valley assembly.  I don't know if George taught this.  The scriptures mention David & Jonathan, Daniel & his friends, Jesus & his friends.

3.  II Thessalonians 1:8-9 “… because of our sin, there's the possibility that we will pay the penalty of eternal destruction away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power...”  This was shared through itinerant ministry from Fullerton.  This is putting fear in a believer’s heart by implying about missing out or not overcoming.  This is in clear violation of the scriptures.  In 1 John 5:5 it says, “And who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?”  By definition, all those who believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God, is an overcomer.  It’s not based upon anyone’s works or self-holiness to obtain a “full salvation”.  It’s based on the finished work of Jesus Christ.

4.  From I Corinthians 2:16 “…But we apostles, but we Corinthians, we have the mind of Christ.  Now that is a wonderful thing.  That’s the responsibility of leadership to ascertain and stand for the mind of the Lord.”  This scripture refers to all believers in the church and not to those in leadership only.  The Leading Brothers are not needed to confirm the will of God.  This is used for control, since “the only ones who know how to implement God’s will is the leadership.”

There are many more but this post is long enough.  I used quotes because there are some who will argue that I missed the point, etc.

If you would like, you can email me and I will send you what transpired from the time I first noticed the teaching and the abuses till one year before I left.  

Lord bless,

Eric
ebuchmann@msn.com

Roberto Sanchez and Jeff Lehmkuhl have known of the abuse for many, many years.  There's absolutely no excuse for them covering up sin.  Now they have "repented".  I agree with Heide-these men need to step down from leadership.  It is my prayer that the whole "SLO Assembly" would just go out and find healthy churches to fellowship in.

I copied and pasted this request from the SLO assembly:

*The main request was that the Lord would enable them to make things right with those they offended, and that they would be able to restore the reproach they brought on the name of Christ in the community.*

When does that start? I have recieved a few phone calls wanting to know if I have been contacted. Do I get that phone call that says "Hey, sorry we called you a liar, sorry we said you broke up Dave & Judy's marriage by writing that article or helping Judy leave, sorry we branded you as being bitter and weak, sorry we said you were wicked..." Or is there going to be a public meeting? I just want to know when it starts?
Heide

I'm waiting too Heide!  How about an apology that says, "Eulaha, we are sorry that we told you it would be sinful to leave the Assembly.  We are sorry for threatening me to stop talking to others about why you left the group."  I'm assuming that aplogy is in the works.  All I can do is assume.

I am curious, from whom are you looking for this?  Do they know you were offended?  Are you expecting people who have already failed you by offending you to *know* that they did?  I personally hope that when offend someone, they would come to me and tell me, otherwise i would have had no idea.  Granted, i do not know your personal situation in all this, nor do i know *everything* that has transpired, but be sure that they know you were offended, and that you are seeking a apology for the spite of pride.   God desires greater things for you than for you to remain bitter, find that peace.

Jesusfreak,

They know I was offended.  I've reminded many times.

Also, just because I am seeking an apology does not make me "bitter".

Hey JesusFreak,

I'm not sure who you are responding to in your email but let me ask you this. If you called someone a liar in a roomful of people and talked poorly about them, wouldn't that information be in your heart and whether or not anyone heard, wouldn't you just know in your heart that you needed to make it right with that person?

 In starting to apoligize a softness occurs in your heart and perhaps your conscience gets pricked and the light flows in. I would like to believe the best about Jeff, Roberto and Danny but the past keeps getting in the way.... These men that are so fondly called shepherds don't care about the flock. They have no shepherd qualities. How are the little sheep who need shepherds going to keep the shepherds in line? Sheep don't keep the shepherds accountable..... Little sheep need someone who honestly care about their welfare. The LB's of SLO have shown over and over there is no care. These men need to step down!

Heide

Hi all
My name is Gary Wilson.  I just wante to add my 2 cents to what Phil said.  Ok maybe my input is only worth 1 cent.  Nevertheless, here I go.
I came into the Fullerton assembly back in 1972.  I have NO doubt that God lead me.  NO DOUBT.  George was away.  I saw Christ and God confirmed my coming in my richly opening the scriptures to me.
What I saw was Christ.  
I have left and come back several times because I stopped walking with the Lord.  
Well, I am back now.  I believe that God can and will lead me.  I am here for now.  That could change.

What is on my heart is that everyone needs to make the decision to stay and leave before God.  
We are all brethern.  For you that are now in other places  "God bless you and lead you"
I am grieved that so many were offended and mistreated.
For us that are staying because we believe God has us here, please don't look at us as others have looked at you.
What am I saying - Haven't others looked down on you as deceived, less than, out of fellowship, etc. etc.
Please don't label all of us as mindless, spineless, lightless puppets.
We are brethern.  We are all seeking to determine what God's will for us is.
The church at Corith had countless problems.  Paul didn't gloss over them.  He addressed them 1 by 1.  Sometimes with great rebuke but always in love of Christ.
We in Fullerton are going through things 1 by 1 and hoping to come to uniamity in all matters.
Please pray for us.  The task is huge.  Their is much pain and much uncertainity.
What has left the greatest impression on my heart throughout the years.  Their have been ones that have loved me and came to me when I was totally discouraged and disgusted with my self.
Sounds like their are many that did not receive that.
Even so that is not the final reason why I am still here.  I still have the conviction that God wants me here.  I am praying for God to confirm this.  
Yes much radical change needs to take place.  But isn't possible that
the same Christ who took 11 men who denied Him in his greatest hour of need and then in Love instructed and empowered these same men to be his disciples, do the same for us.
We are all failures.  We all need Him.  We all need each other.
So I as one brother who for the moment am staying say to all of you
who have left we are brothers and sisters in Christ.
We need each other.  
I will pray for God's leading and blessing in your life, please pray for God's leading and blessing in ours.

Brokenhearted but hopeful
Gary Wilson
Gary Wilson

This is a small observation from someone who attended some Assembly meetings and a few other private gatherings and was exposed to members within the last few years.  

First, nobody owes me any apologies for anything (in my humble opinion).

Second, my observations are:

1.) That there was much talk of repenting, and submitting oneself to the church leaders for repentance and Christ.

2.) There was much mention of other churches not being "real" churches, and their paths not being the "true path" to Christ.

3.) There was not as much talk of the love and forgiveness Christ brought when he died for us.

4.) Many members I met had their entire lives tied up in the church and I rarely heard them mention anything else but the church, church activities, other church members etc.

5.) I experienced a similar attitude at the Mormon church a "cult" in some circles.

To sum this up, I met many kind, generous, loving people at the assembly.  I was and am only friends with one of them.
I never returned to the Assembly and would never do so.

I agree, Gary. We need each other. We need the "leading brothers" and the "leading brothers" need us. We need all Christians at other churches, and they need us who are not at those other churches. Everyone is learning that no human being is perfect, especially now.

I don't want to sound trite, uncaring, or anything. I understand that I have not had the experiences that others here have in the "Assembly". I was fortunate enough to grow up in a gathering where all the saints (the "leading brothers" too) were starting to learn to love each other.

My question is this: Is it not possible for Christ to help us overcome the past and our past memories and somehow, through His strength, forgive now and wait on God now?

Peace-

I apologize for not communicating my curiousity clearly, let me try again :)

I was thinking about the actual concept of an apology and it came to mind that it was a fruitless endevour to wait for such when the person who wronged you had no idea they did.  I just wanted to be sure that those who have been wronged know beyond a shadow of a doubt that their offender realizes the fruits of their actions.  If this person does not, than they would know no reason to apologize, and would not seek your pardon.


But even when offended, those little sheep need to be constantly aware of the sin of pride.  Once again, please to not take anything i say personally, but take them as items to meditate upon.  I know nothing about single events that happened in these various places, nor do i specifically desire to as they are not my business.  Whatever wrongs that have been committed are between the 2 parties and God, not a peanut gallery

Dear People -- Please don't take your eye off the ball.

The core issue is and always has been IDOLATRY.  

It's very, very simple.... Idolatry.

When we try to deal with an issue, we obviously have to deal with the symptoms...However, there is a better way.

That fraud got on the stage and hung around way, way too long for a discerning group of believers.  We should have let him dance by himself or we should of dragged him off the stage back in the 1970s when my Dad-in-law was calling him a fraud.  His speaking the truth cost him a familial split of 25 years involving 50 of us.  I'm not bitter anymore.  I forgive him, I really pity him.  I'm just stating the facts.

Folks the culpability is real we're guilty of idolatry.  Maybe there are some innocent folks out there...If so, they are blessed!

Let's repent - hard core right now - and make things right, and move forward.  Period.

I appreciate everyone who's contacting me and telling me nice things and how they appreciate all the stuff I'm doing. To be frank, it's getting under my skin and it bugs me.  You assembly folks always want to give SOMEONE credit. You've got a big problem.  It's like in or out of that place your wired to praise men.  Very scary, creepy & disgusting

I know for a fact that there is one recorded error in the Bible.  I know it.  It's where Paul says he's "the chiefest-of-sinners."

He's wrong, people.  I am, I know that for a fact.

And, if you don't know that fact about yourself...You still haven't been brought out to where you need to be - and I'm not talking about physical proximity, either.

Please, Please, Please!  Don't take your eye off the ball.

The core issue is and always has been IDOLATRY.  

It's very, very simple.

                                  I....D....O....L....A....T....R....Y

Blessings and Grace to all of you.

Chuck Vanasse
Chuck@vanant.com

Dear People -- Please don't take your eye off the ball.

The core issue is and always has been IDOLATRY.  

It's very, very simple.... Idolatry.

When we try to deal with an issue, we obviously have to deal with the symptoms...However, there is a better way.

That fraud got on the stage and hung around way, way too long for a discerning group of believers.  We should have let him dance by himself or we should of dragged him off the stage back in the 1970s when my Dad-in-law was calling him a fraud.  His speaking the truth cost him a familial split of 25 years involving 50 of us.  I'm not bitter anymore.  I forgive him, I really pity him.  I'm just stating the facts.

Folks the culpability is real we're guilty of idolatry.  Maybe there are some innocent folks out there...If so, they are blessed!

Let's repent - hard core right now - and make things right, and move forward.  Period.

I appreciate everyone who's contacting me and telling me nice things and how they appreciate all the stuff I'm doing. To be frank, it's getting under my skin and it bugs me.  You assembly folks always want to give SOMEONE credit. You've got a big problem.  It's like in or out of that place your wired to praise men.  Very scary, creepy & disgusting

I know for a fact that there is one recorded error in the Bible.  I know it.  It's where Paul says he's "the chiefest-of-sinners."

He's wrong, people.  I am, I know that for a fact.

And, if you don't know that fact about yourself...You still haven't been brought out to where you need to be - and I'm not talking about physical proximity, either.

Please, Please, Please!  Don't take your eye off the ball.

The core issue is and always has been IDOLATRY.  

It's very, very simple.

                                  I....D....O....L....A....T....R....Y

Blessings and Grace to all of you.

Chuck Vanasse
Chuck@vanant.com

Kimberley, I've already sent you a personal commendation on some of your other comments, but from what I'm reading, I should say on Phil's behalf that I think that by virtue of geography alone, St. Louis was spared some of the criminal dysfunction that went on in California.  The dysfunction was there, to be sure, and at times it was severe, but a lot of the doctrinal issues that I'm reading about on this site are new to me.  Phil hasn't been subjected to the things that you've seen.  He is now aware of them.  We have all been at the point where we honestly felt that we were sinning for even noticing a short-coming in another saint.  Absolutely no complaining allowed!  I'm shocked at some of the control issues that people endured.  

Many people are describing their difficulties in leaving the assembly.  Now many people are faced with the very real possibility of the assembly leaving them forever.  It will take time for the sheep to re-examine the shepherds and the pasture.  I hope for genuine and broad-reaching repentance on the part of the shepherds, but we need to bear in mind that in many cases, there was never malice, just procedure.  I'm sure that many in leadership are seeing all sorts of mental re-runs of earlier conflicts with countless individuals and I hope that they are going through their mental files from the 1970's to the present making lists of people they need to contact.  While they are doing this, what is their hope of getting an apologetic phone call from the Grand Poobah himself to reconcile for the control he exercised over them?  Zero.  The LB's have to apologize without receiving apologies themselves.  This means they need mercy and compassion from those they have wronged.  

The abuses among the assemblies range from issues that could easily involve the federal government to issues that are irrelevant.  The severely abused naturally have an urgency in communicating liberty to the captives.  Many of those already out of the "Lodge" still missed that old lodge for a while after their departure.  

Some have the task of exposing the darkness.  Others have the need to recognize just how evil that darkness was.  Just as our merciful Savior did not overwhelm us with the darkness of our own sin when we were first saved, we all have the charge of trusting our Faithful Shepherd to expose the Geftakys darkness to individuals as they are able to accept it.  Jesus will faithfully shepherd His flock.  

Dear Mr. Freak...

Mr. Freak (Since, we're being technical I'm not to use the Lord's name in vain and saluting you stumbles me...I admonish you, brother, to change your name)

Good point the core-of-core issues is Christ!  Always!

Many thanks...The core issue that has kept people from Christ in this movement over the the last 33 years is IDOLATRY...Extending the analogy --  Kind of like the rubber bands around the bouncey center of a golf ball.  How's that JF?

I stand corrected...Boy, you're a tough bunch.

Thanks Jesus...Oh, I mean Mr. Freak....sorry, took my eye off the ball.

Blessing, Chuck

Mr. Freak:

That George was ever a man that folks should follow without question - that view, philosophy was the assemblies creation, yes indeed.  It was wrong and it was idolatry.  Defiled...well history vouches for that, doesn't it?  "Man's view will only lead to destruction"...Yep, we've seen it. No matter how one cuts it...It's idolatry. If it walks like a duck and acts like a duck it isn't a toaster...Get my drift?  

"Idolatry is Man's creation, a creation of his philosophy and defiled nature.  Approaching what has happened from Man's view will only lead to destruction, follow the Lords view in how to act, he will make your paths straight."

Mr. Freak, we're in agreement.

Your Pal in Kansas, Chuck Vanasse (Chuck@Vanant.com)

In the middle of all this failure I am thankful for the need for me to get back deeply back into the word of God personally and also to keep more friends outside of my own church which balances my perspective.

In comment to the idolatry listed by everyone I couldn't agree more.

A good example from scripture that has been the perspective of this ministry is that if you left -- you're toast. I can't tell you how one of my friends who sense the Lord's leading..and he left, and guess what? He is now one of the main speakers at Campus Crusade for Christ!

**

The man, John the Baptist had a scriptural basis for all this.

John 1:33 Again, the next day, John stood with two of his disciples.
And looking at Jesus as He walked, he said, "Behold the Lamb of God."

The two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus.

**

John the Baptist had a ministry, but when the Lamb of God came, he pointed to Jesus. Jesus is the only one any man should give credit and John the Baptist didn't mind two disciples leaving him to follow Jesus.
That is the goal of ministry my friend, and for all my dear friends, our lives, and our ministry should be to get others to FOLLOW Jesus. May God get within all our lives that we INSPIRE A DEEP PASSION for Jesus alone. Thanks to Chuck, pointing out, I am too quick to give credit to a man, but I should more to Jesus.

May all of us during this time learn to inspire others...FOLLOW JESUS.
One of the great mistakes that has permeated this ministry is the subtle 'sayings' that if someone leaves for legitimate reasons, that they are 'out of the will of the will of God'. Only God knows what life He has planned for everyone. One of the biggest things I appreciated when i had to make a huge job transition, and I sought advice and this dear brother said, "I don't know the will of God for you." That's refreshing to hear, "I don't know. but you follow Jesus."

May our lives point to Jesus and inspire everyone here to say like
Anne Graham Lotz so eloquently expressed, "JUST GIVE ME JESUS."

Hey Eulaha,

I never forgot your work ethic in the kitchen
and you were a blessing in my life. I never stopped
to say that, but you were!!

I hope God brings all the healing that you need
and if I may make a suggestion --- read Fresh Wind, Fresh Fire
by Jim Cymbala. It's awesome! It will bring you to tears
as how God moves upon the humble and transforms
lives like gay male prostitutes, drug users and hookers and turns
them into part of the now Grammy Award winning Brooklyn Tabernacle. I DOUBLE dare you read the book and NOT
be encouraged. It's AWESOME!!!!

Love in Christ to all,

Gordon

I did not mean my post as an attack, only a comment.  My postings are made in a spirit of discussion, not upheaveal.  As for the name, it is the title of one of the most encouraging songs (and now a book) that i have heard/read.  A "jesus freak" is a person who found that worth living for, and gave their all (even their life).  This is to which i dedicated my life, and thus chose it as my avatar.

I agree Gordon.

The assembly here had some controlling vices that were instituted to keep ones in line.  Those vices were wrong.  I'm standing for ones to follow Christ, and not follow me or any"one" else.  I've made the mistake of presuming I knew God's will for a good friend of mine, and I was wrong.  I have since asked for his forgiveness, and you know what... God is restoring our friendship.

In our midst, I never want to see the presumtion of knowing God's will for someone else (unless there is gross sin, obviously).  But, I think we can learn to be sheppherds, and pray with each other, and seek God's will together.   These things empower ones to follow Christ, wherever he shall lead.

Corey,

PS, I've never met Phil Strangman (sp), but I'm so encouraged with your post.  At times like this, it's time to seek God.

Since you didn't clarify what you meant, all I could do was read into it,  it is not a knee-jerk reaction, it is in response to what Phil had written previously and you were standing with (I assume, it is hard to tell with one-liners.)  

Since you are young and perhaps do not recall how believers are treated (and in fact, probably aren't even aware how they are treated since you have never left) let me tell you.  When you leave, you are definately told that you have left "God's covering", you have "left fellowship", you are shunned by dear friends you considered very close to your family, you are told you did not leave properly, you have grudges and must make them right with people.  I could go on and on, this is simply a taste (and mild taste, it has been worse for some) of what it is like to "leave fellowship."  I am not straining at nats when I discuss these terms.  It is a symptom of the false teaching that permeates the assembly and you really need to address this kind of thinking.  This is not the way mainstream churches treat the believers who are not in their midst.  This is not godly or edifying, it is sin.

I am not sharing these thoughts to be critical or inflammatory.  I am sharing them to get those of you who are still under this system of thinking to do just that, THINK!  We who have left, truly love our brethren, we would not be involved and spend the HOURS on this BB if we didn't love you.  There are many more things I could be doing than sitting responding to these posts, I do it out of a love and care for my fellow believers.  Jesusfreak, I really do love you, I hope you will hear what I am trying to convey.

I am really sorry to see you so supporting these men in SLO, Jesusfreak.  I understand it is the assembly teaching, etc., however, let's not be stupid here.  The issue that was going on in SLO we have all read about.  These men KNOW who they called liars, slanderers, etc, etc, etc.  It is ridiculous to think that these women/men who were spoken of in these ways should go to these men and tell them they were offended.  

And for the rest of those in the assemblies:  You know who you are who spoke of those who have left in the past.  You don't have to have these ones come to you.  Let your conscience be your guide (not the conscience that has been recently taught about in the assembly.)  But that conscience that you are trying to suppress that is telling you over and over, humble yourself and make things right.

Kimberly,

Thank you for those words.  Yes, treating people who leave like that IS/WAS wrong.

I have been party to that in the past, but no more.  I have called many people who I did that too, and have asked for forgiveness.  I will do that no longer.

Also, please note, that I have been breaking away from doing that for quite some time.  I have a good friend in Seattle who left SLO that I'm in constant contact with (he left years ago).  I have several other friends who no longer come out to the meetings, and I'm in constant contact with them.  I pray with one man on a somewhat regular basis, and we get together for lunch quite often.  Another family that is no longer coming to our meetings, I have told them that I will not shun them, and that they are my friends.  I am supportive in their decision, and we still see each other quite often.

If this ever happens in SLO again, I want to know about it.  

Also, we have had fellowships in SLO a few times for people leaving and going into other ministries.  I believe the Lord was opening our eyes to this wrong long before the breakthrough last weekend.  I'm not saying it has not happened, but I am saying it is wrong, and should not happen again.

Thanks for your input Kimberly, it much appreciated.

Best regards,

Corey

I am standing for my brethern in Christ.  If they have fallen, what good would a brother be who would not be there to catch them and help them to their feet?  I pray that whatever sins have come between themeselves and God, they would repent and return to God.  Until than (and always) i pray that the Lord will guide them back to himself.

Do not mistake this caring for condolence toward whatever sins have occured.

A brother that watches while men of leadership who have sinned against the Lord's people and supports it by simply offering a word of encouragement or demanding that the one offended come forth before apologies are offered, is to me, complicit in their sin.  A brother who, when he knows there are things wrong in the doctrine and yet says, "I will just submit to the leadership, the Lord will honor me, as they know more than I do" is complicit in their sin.  The events that are unfolding provides a moment in time of grace.  An opportunity to cleanse God's house and makes things right.  The attitude of "I will stand by my brethren, whatever the cost" is foolishness.  This is the kind of foolishness that leads to men like Jim Jones.  Are you willing to go to your death for these men (regardless if this is God's will for your life?)  You might say that this is a bit far reaching, you are wrong.  Jim Jones began as a right on born again christian.  He evolved.  This is where this ministry is headed if they do not take this time of grace and cleanse God's house.

Hear Hear Kim!

JF:  Where I pulled this from?  Study cults.  Read Enroth's book, "Churchs that Abuse", the "Assembly" is in there.  Read books on spiritual abuse, there are others (there is suggested reading on the main page of this website.)  That is where I "pulled" this from.  The only "church" you have known, if I read your posts correctly, is the "assembly".  You need to do some reading, apart from the accepted "assembly" reading.  

There is some VERY WRONG doctrine and practices taught in the assembly.  I can see it through your posts.  I am not arguing with you.  I am contending for your soul.  I love you as your sister in Christ.  I am not Diabolos (this is not what you have called me, I want to make that clear, that is what is tauted in the assembly, as these events are unfolding, I know it is happening in the Assembly I was formerly a member in.)

You don't understand.  I have had the greatest of peace since I LEFT THE ASSEMBLY.  I am at complete peace.  I am distressed for those who unquestioningly follow after the teachings of a place like the "assembly".   You are young.  You don't see it.  Wait until you have a wife and children.  I hope it won't come to that.

May God lead you in His perfect will.

Your sister in Christ,

Kimberley

Hi there Jesus Freak!  Who are you?  Are you a leading brother?  Please identify yourself.....it might be easier to see where you are coming from!

Jesus Freak you could not be Tom Cruise.........could you?  ha ha ha! Do identify yourself..........

You might even remeber me, my name is Luke Sturnfield and I fellowship out of Chicago.  ;)

Not a leading brother, nor someone who has been around as long as some, but one who seeks the Lord in all things.

See I knew you were not Tom Cruise!  Thanks for identifying yourself!

I very much remember you LUKE!   ;D

Actually I have been praying for you!  Keep your eyes open! :o

Lord Bless You!

Sue

I remeber you too, and thanks a ton for the prayers, Heaven knows I need them  ;)

Hey I hear you are taller than me Luke!  ha ha ha  that must of took all but one day!  ha ha ha!  I know that you have made your parents very proud of you!  You should just put your name up and leave the Jesus Freak in ().  Be bold...put your name out there!    Ro. 8:1

Ya!!!!!!!!!

Hey Luke, do you still have your republican website up and running?  Your Dad told me about it.  You are a legend!!

Seriously, if you do, what is the address?

Garth

Yeah....I am taller than most people :) As for my parents, I think i have always made them proud, and I love them a lot (since they read this  :-*)

As for the name bit, I will most likely get around to updating my profile, but i like the term "Jesus Freak" (simply because of that one song).  I will put my given name in with my avatar name though, for those who do not like calling someone a "freak"  ::)

Hahahah  oh man!  Yeah, it is www.IllinoisTARS.org  (http://www.IllinoisTARS.org). That is me to the far right of the picture for those interested.

Luke, you are the man!

And from your picture, I think I would now be looking up to you! Ha!

Garth

And we will always love you as well  :-*

"No matter what you decide" -- I know we always only seem to "say that" when we disagree with your decisions, yet I sincerely mean "we will always love you".

Keep on "Seeking the Light", separating the wheat from the chaff.

Jeremiah 23:28  "The prophet who has a dream, let him tell a dream; And he who has My word, let him speak My word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat?" says the LORD.
29  "Is not My word like a fire?" says the LORD, "And like a hammer that breaks the rock in pieces?

Hey,  :o
I used to be in TARS.
A long time ago!  8)
Look where it got me.
Wher am I anyway.

Verne, I asked my Dad about you last night and he remembers you. He said you were "a killer bass player" if I quoted him correctly. Maybe we can establish contact sometime this year. Who knows what the future brings?

Do you all think that the Lord is causing all of these things to happen to now to prepare for us if something goes terribly wrong with the impending war in Iraq or something else tragic and monumental happens? Just a thought

2 Peter 3:8: "But beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

Peace-

I meant to say "prepare us", not "prepare for us."

*i guess that's what the preview button is for after all.

Hi Phil:
I'd be a little careful about assigning cosmic (apocalyptic) ramifications to the shakeup. Of course the believers and their lives and futures are important in the sight of God (please don't misunderstand me), but the Church is much bigger than our particular locale. We've had Hitler, Stalin, and Mao all in the same century and the gates of hell haven't prevailed. Neither will this. "Occupy till I return...."

Good point, Sebastien. I think I was thinking in terms of my personal walk with the Lord more than anything. In March, we may begin launching 300 to 400 cruise missiles a DAY in Iraq, and if something goes terribly wrong, God may have gotten me used to tragedy and reality through what is going on now so that if something incredibly chaotic happens this year, I (hopefully!) won't be a powderpuff melting in the heat of fear.

Peace

Hello Phil

In Waco, they were convinced that it was "The End."  Same with Jonestown.  Heaven's gate, same type of thing.  Solar Temple, ditto.

Concerned Christians (Monte-Kim Miller) same deal, eminent return of Christ.

What these groups have in common, is that the rank and file members were deluded into believeing and acting upon a total falacy.  Quite frightening indeed.

We don't know when Jesus is coming back. Period.

The Assembly is no more because God judged it.  Past tense.

Also, God does not get us ready and make us strong by getting us "used to tragedy."  The Joy of The Lord is our strength.

Assembly Childtraining teaches something like what you said, but that is not how God works. I advise you to abandon that sort of thinking.  Please don't think that the judgement that has befallen George's house has any significance in the cosmic sense, other than this very simple principle,

You reap what you sow.

The Assembly has never been at the cutting edge of God's purpose, and has never been a beacon of light in a community of darkness, blah blah.  It has always been a very dysfunctional group, full of broken people, egotistical people, and assorted others, most of whom only wanted to walk with the Lord, but found themselves ensnared by a false teacher.  Yes, George is a false teacher.  The same kind of false teacher we are warned about in the Bible.

God has now set the members free, and now they can do what they longed to do at the beginning, IF THEY GET OUT OF THE SYSTEM!  OR GET THE SYSTEM OUT OF THEM!

The latter is much harder, which is why I strongly advise the former.

Brent

For those of us who are still clueless, (like me!)  is there an assembly in SLO? I heard that they all went to Calvary Chapel on Sunday but are they still meeting on the side at the Sand's Motel? I hear they want to right wrongs but one week later I still haven't heard. I still think it is funny that I hear from the sheep not the shepherds who did the wrong.

Heide

Heide,

You're not alone. Just what in the blazes is going on there !
I'm sorry, but the whole thing just like, reeks of politics.

Brent,

I'm not convinced it's the end. War with Iraq doesn't mean the end. Tragedy doesn't mean it's the end. The Holocaust happened, and that wasn't the end. World War II happend, and it wasn't the end. Yet they were unbelievably tragic events! What could happen with Iraq may very well not be the end, yet be a very, very tragic event. You're right in that "getting used to tragedy" may have not been a good way to put it. God knows that trials of my faith are going to come my way. This could be one of them.

Does it not speak in 1 Peter 1:7,  about "the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ." If the United States does get attacked or whatever, is that not a trial of faith for a Christian, to be believing God as evil events swarm around us? Possible impending war with Iraq could happen, whether the Assembly ever existed or not. If I had grown up a Episcopalian, and my church started falling apart when I was 19, and this war with Iraq came up at the same time, I might be wondering too myself. People worry about the consequences of war whether they were soaked in Assembly Child Training or not.

Peace-

Hi Rudy,

It is politics! There was a cover-up. Still Roberto and Jeff stay in control, not repenting as far as I can see. No one has called.... Forgive me if I am wrong but didn't we get taught that if you have an issue with your brother you have to talk to them before you can worship the Lord? Wasn't pre-prayer on Sunday morning a time to get it right? I will count this down and it isn't that things aren't moving fast enough. It is to make everyone aware that Jeff and Roberto aren't doing anything.

Heide

I've had to think about the Lord's supper pre-req.
It's if you know that someone has something against you ...
not the other way around. The burden was shifted to the offended -
that's not in my bible or any of the other translations i have. The issue of
being offended, confrontation and forgiveness, of going to them was to
deal one on one. At the Lord's supper the burden of innocence is on them.
They eat and drink condemnation to themselves, it is their responsibility
not ours. This site is open to the whole planet and none of what is said
here is being done in a corner. People just need to be nice.

Otherwise it's, "meet the new boss, same as the old boss".

Yep!

 Right on Rudy.  The burden was shifted to the offended, which practically meant that as long as the leadership made sure to offend US, we remained at a spiritualy substandard level.  The more they offended, the more WE had to make right.

UPSIDE DOWN!  It has to go!  There can't be any more of this nonsense!

Brent

I've been frequenting this web site for the past few weeks and it has been a wonderful source of information. BUT NOW YOU HAVE GONE TOO FAR!!! YOU GIVE AWAY THE SUPRISE ENDING OF THE LORD OF THE RINGS! One of your messages outright comes out and spills the beans. After reading this incredible story and personally being flabbergasted by one of the greatest surprise endings of all time, and after holding my tongue on numerous occasions so as not to ruin the end for others who are laboriously pouring over its pages, all one has to do is casually come across this message and WHAM! there it is in a breath. I have a friend who after months of reading was but a few chapters away from finding out, in proper storytelling fashion, the final destiny of the ring and it's over-encumbered bearer. No longer.

For those who would rather come to this glorious ending by way of proper story alignment !PROCEED WITH CAUTION! when reading the January 20th entries of the "IT IS TRUE!" thread started by Danny Edwards (it's a great thread and worth reading). I don't want to point fingers, so I'll just say that it's not Brent Tr0ckman's entry of the same date that also mentions Lord of the Rings. But it's right near it! I do not want to offend the author, it's a great message and the Lord can definitely speak to you through it. But if you come across the line: "Remember the Lord of the Rings?" at the beginning of a paragraph. DO NOT READ THE NEXT SENTENCE! Skip over it and proceed. Tolkien didn't develop such an unestimated and momentous ending for nothing.  :)

"Better is the end of a thing than the beginning thereof." Ecclesiastes 7:8

Josh

We are sorry.  I'll tell my husband to shut this thing down.  This has gone too far... :-[

Suzie

Classic! LOL ;D

I need some help. I just got this note from Jeff and I can't make heads or tails if it is an apology or just run of the mill. I would like to respond but I feel myself getting angry.

**Heidi,

I am certain that you will look at this letter with great skepticism and perhaps disdain.  I understand.  I am aware of things that you have asked on the internet about why you haven't been called.  I have a number of things to say to you but first to address why now and not earlier.  I have looked long and hard at what you understand that we said about you.  I have reviewed what you sent to us and later posted on Rick Ross's site.  I have reviewed what was actually read to the assembly.  My difficulty in responding has been that you stated that we "have covered up wife abuse for 17 years".  I, and as far as I know, none of the others, with the exception of David,  covered up wife abuse.  So we stated simply to the saints that this statement was "absolutely false."  That has been a dilemna for my conscience in asking forgiveness of you.

I now see though, how wrong we were as leaders to allow David to continue in leadership and not to send him back to Fullerton in the mid 90's before there was any other incidents with David after the first incident we were made aware of in 1994. I see how terribly this hurt Judy and her family, and many others.  That is a tremendous grief to all of us.  I don't expect you, her, or any of the kids to forgive us for that.  We don't even want to put that on any of you at all.  I do ask you to forgive me for in any way communicating to anyone the things that you said that we have said about you.  You should never have been called a liar or anything else.  I have already told you what was publicly said.  Please respect that eventhough you knew the truth of the matter when we did not.  

For ever putting pressure on you to do anything or be anything contrary to God's will for your life which I do believe you can find on your own, forgive me.  That is totally wrong.  I know that I have done this to my shame and the shame of Christ's name.

Jeff Lehmkuhl**


I could use your insight Mr. Editor, please!

heidi,

it could be some time before the editor reads your post.
to me the letter isn't an apology since he claims no fault.
also, going on what you said, that you weren't allowed
into the Sands meeting place - it looks like they're
giving you the runaround. if you're angry, wait and cool
down and think of a good response to jeff.

Heide,

Per Jeff's letter to you - he quoted:
"I now see though, how wrong we were as leaders to allow David to continue in leadership and not to send him back to Fullerton in the mid 90's before there was any other incidents with David after the first incident we were made aware of in 1994."

As if Jeff had the power to send David back to Fullerton in the first place!  Who is kidding who here?  David was THE BOSS! His father was HEAD HONCHO - UNTOUCHABLE! What David said was gospel!  Jeff, open your eyes, you have been duped!

Amazing!  This is exactly how the catholic church covered up abuse - send the priest to another church.  Cover-up!  What good does that do?  The cycle continues.  

I know that when I was in fellowship in SLO (1985-1990) that part of that time Jeff & Nancy lived with David & Judy.  How could Jeff not see the abuse?  He lived in their house?    If you read Judy & Rachel's account, it was not one isolated account of abuse, it was ongoing.  If you read or listen to some of the counseling - the husband could do NO WRONG!

Heide,
I am with you, I can't see that Jeff admitted to any wrong-doing, only a continuing game of assembly cover-up.  Give it some time!  Jeff has been in the assembly for so long he doesn't even seem to know right from wrong!  He was trained by David!  He has literally sacrificed his families life to follow an evil man.  Can you imagine what Jeff must be going through right now?  He can't even admit it to himself yet!  He doesn't have very many sheep to lead, I mean mis-lead anymore!  The game is over!  The sheep are free!  

Lori

Just alittle heads up, thank you so much for the insight. I just couldn't get where this was coming from. I was thinking on the way home today how I probably shouldn't have posted Jeff's letter to this website but then got to thinking. It is the secrets and the darkness and I refuse to be part of that anymore. It is such assembly teaching.

So with your help this is what I came up with:
Hi Jeff,

I got your note and I don't understand it. I have five credible witnesses that say you yourself called me a liar. Can you own up to this for starters? I never said in my email who the couple was but you immediately knew. You said the email was full of lies and called and told people to delete it. You said I was a liar and slanderer.  If I have the years wrong, I apologize to you and anyone else. The bottom line is you knew about the abuse years before I ever knew. Once I found out my only objective was to remove Judy from the situation. That was 2000. By your own words you knew about the abuse before I did.

You need to own up to your actions Jeff. This thing that you said "I don't expect you, her, or any of the kids to forgive us for that. We don't even want to put that on any of you at all." Is a crock. If you don't believe in repenting and making things right then why did you write? For me it really is this little thing called fellowship in Christ.

Heide C. Johnson

So thanks again for your opinions. BTW, haven't heard back from Jeff.....

After your detailed analysis Arthur, no doubt it was a
runaround, get her off track letter. Me, just up too late  :P
and went on gut feeling and red flags.