AssemblyBoard

My family just met a new family in town.  They have only been here a few months.  When pressed on why they moved across country (grandma, grandpa, mom, dad and 4 kids) they said something about a bad church experience.  Wow!  That sounded familiar.  They went on to describe legalism, a one man show, a small no growth group and finally a sexual scandal that woke them up to leave.  Then after they left the church they were accussed of "being in the dark" and continually harassed by phone and visits.  So they decided to move 3,000 miles and start over.  Now they claim that they feel "so free". 

Sound familiar?  And they weren't assemblyites.  Their group was some pentecostal church but with almost all the same rules and standards we had.  And the same darkness.

They, of course, were shocked to find that we had had a similar experience.  We sat around for hours trading stories about the ridiculous standards we were under.  The wife said, "there was a competition as to who would return to the meetings the fastest after having a baby."  Sound familiar? and "you always had to have one family member at the meeting so they could pass on the message". 

I think it was healing for both families to be able to laugh together about our extremisms.  We also are in similar places in our distrust of local churches, pastors and even our own faith.

What is my point?  We assemblyites aren't the only people who fell in a hole unwittingly.  There are probably thousands of others like us.  And we and others are moving on.  Sharing a common experience helps to put things in perspective.  I think.

Me.

Hi Me.

I had a similar experience about a year ago. I got to know a mom who lived nearby and eventually we got to talking about churches. She ended up describing to me her church experience which had so many remarkable similarities, I couldn't believe it WASN'T the assembly. Legalism, one-upmanship, hypocrisy and topped off by sexual scandal...the same old story.

It was a truly affirming experience for me. There's something so healing about knowing you're not the only one who has experienced the same kind of spiritual shipwreck. What was remarkable about this mom was that her faith remained intact. She had been out a few more years than I had, so she'd had more time to "process." Meeting her gave me a strong shot of hope.

Here's the other similarity: her church was also a non-denominational church. Do you think non-denoms are more prone to this kind of break-up than the more traditionally organized denominations? Maybe there's no connection, I mean, the most organized church of all--the Roman Catholic church---has its fair share of scandals....

Maybe there is no such thing as fool-proof, scandal-proof church?  ???

E.

One night Caryl and I were sitting on a bench in downtown Fullerton, watching the squirting fountain they have installed in the patio area west of the museum.

A younger couple approached us and began to "witness" to us about being faithful to God and obeying his word by fellowshipping in the manner and place God desires us to.

Turned out it was the LA Church of Christ, which shares many of the Assembly ideas.

We told them that we had been there, done that, and were not interested.

Sure was weird being approached like that.  We got to hear how it sounds from the other end.

Thomas Maddux

Well I'm happy to know that I can laugh with almost strangers about it now.  I think it's healthy to be able to see your own deficit and laugh at yourself.  We were agreeing that our cult groups only stayed at about 300 people because the rest of the Christian world is smarter, more emotionally stable and more discerning than we were.  We were of the minority of people who actually NEEDED this kind of wacko group to meet some kind of need in our own lives.  But we've gotten smarter in the process.

The problem I have now is that I see threads of control and legalism in every church I've visited since.  I've become too cautious and suspicious of all the super-Chrisitans, homeschool fanatics, "serious" Christions etc. because they all smack of the narrowminded that we left behind.  On the other hand, I find Christian church goers who are gamblers, partiers etc. the rest of the time; therefore they aren't "real" enough for my limited judgment.  What does that leave?

Me

I had an interesting lunch with a pastor and his wife yesterday. He has been given a new position within his denomination as their go-to guy for healthy churches. Their congregations are large in urban areas, but many are small churches in rural areas (Indiana/Pennsilvania). I asked him what he looks for as the first warning signs that a church is unhealthy. He said a controlling leader and/or family.

He also said, "If you have a congregation that is 10 maybe 20 years old and it's been that long since they've seen someone come to Christ, or even a new person coming to the church, there's something wrong." He then quoted our pastor's Sunday message where he said, "Some people speak of quality and some of quantity. Both are important. If someone is over-much about quality and there is no quantity (no new growth) then something is wrong."

When we got to talking about my aberrant past he had heard of the assemblies and just said, "Wow, sorry!" Then asked tongue-in-cheek if we wouldn't mind being the poster family for what they are trying to avoid.

Just me, for finding "threads of control and legalism" in all the churches you've gone to, I hear ya. It's out there. That's one of the reasons we enjoy a big church. The leadership is unusually uncontrolling and the families that are are easy to avoid. They don't last long either.

Hi Jem. yeah, that is so true! Whenever I hear either quantity or quality being over-emphasized, I get a little squeamish. My measure is: is it balanced? I know there will always be a few overly zealous types in the mix, as long as it is just a FEW and as long as they are not in a controlling capacity. I like to see old folks, new growth young college kids, young families--basically I like to see diversity.

We also attend a big church and I like it that way because it's never once been intrusive. Sometimes you feel a little anonymous, but I'd rather be anonymous than be sucked in, ya know?

When I was in college, I used to get approached by LA Church of Christ people all the time. It was so creepy to be "witnessed" to in the same kind of way as the assembly method. One time I was walking to class and I kid you not, this girl comes up to me and says:

"Hey, I really like your shoes!"

I say, "Oh, thanks." And keep walking. Well, she kept up with me and that's how I knew something fishy was going on. Sure enough, she launched into the LA Church of Christ version of the one-minute gospel. Basically I wasn't saved unless I had been baptised into the LACC, Jesus wanted "real" disciples not luke-warm disciples, and it was "awesome" to be serving Jesus as a 100% sold-out disciple.

It was very surreal. She could have been me. I had done what she was doing countless times. Hopefully, with a better starting line! ;D But that was the first time I realized how I sounded to other people when I went witnessing. I felt this odd mixture of pity & revulsion for this poor girl who was witnessing to me. And then I became completely ashamed of myself. How haughty and patronizing I must have sounded when I went witnessing, how disgustingly know-it-all. UGH! I started avoiding Book Table and campus witnessing times after that. I just couldn't stomach it anymore.

That was one of many wake-up calls for me.

Ok.  So you guys say big church is the current solution.  So what do you do about the pastor or pastors who are THE MAN?  Everything revolves around THE PASTOR at big churches.  He gets the credit, attention, kudos, you name it.  We recently heard of paster so and so and how great it is that he is going down south to help Katrina victims.  What a guy!  But does bro. Jo in the back pew get the same noteriety for his service?  It just seems like it's all about THE MAN in big churches.  And then there is the talk about yielding to the authority of the pastor/s!!!  When I hear that, I'm out the door.

It's true you can disappear in big churches.  But I also find it hard to find a balance between clergy and laity in big churches.  Oh and they seem to have bigger programs too; if you know what I mean -- like huge choirs, symphony orchestras, 3 or 4 praise bands (which may or may not be any good), so you get a variety of strange entertainment on a Sunday.

Ok I know I'm being super picky.  But I really would like comments on how you handle these difficulties.

And the lady I met who was in the Pentecostal cult -- she was in for 45 years!  So those of you on other threads, stop getting after us for staying for 20+ years and not doing anything about it.  Sometimes it takes a scandal to wake you up to all of the other foul garbage.

my opinion only
me

Me,

I don't know if it's THE solution, but it's just one. My closest family and friends ask me all the time: "So, Elizabeth, what's your new religion-of-the-month?" After we left the Assembly, I went into a major experimental mode. I was reading books on the Amish, chatting on Mennonite message boards, attending Catholic Masses, I  did some yoga. Smorgasboard delight!

I was searching. I still am. No matter where I go, however, I do have the basic building blocks intact and they act as my filter. When I listen to preaching now I never take notes. I just keep my ears and mind open, letting it sift through. Some things I discard, other things I keep. I look for balance. I look for the Word & the Spirit.

Like this BB, sometimes you get a lot of nonsense, but sometimes, just sometimes there are flashes of genuine insight.

Did that help, or did I just make it more confusing?  :-\

Hey Me,

Yeah, that THE pastor stuff can be annoying, but I have found at our church that most of the blame for that falls on the people and not THE MAN. The pastors at our place go by their names not their titles, but some people insist on saying, "Pastor Mark..." In fact, last Sunday Mark was teaching, AGAIN, on the problems with that.

I was in Willowcreek in Chicago in the spring (well in April and it still looked a lot like winter) and some people there struggle with Bill Hybels worship, so he himself has to fight that all the time. One thing they do is have teaching pastors so Bill is just a guy in the rotation. But I think the clergy/laity thing is a sort of inbred American tradition that we have to rise above by good teaching.

I also think we need to rethink what the Bible teaches for ourselves. After the Fall, we easily shed some bad teaching we recieved, but we retain some "unawares" which is the difficult part of being decieved, eh? If we were in any leadership capacity in the assembly we also need to anaylize whether or not we don't appreciate THE MAN because he ain't us.

Liz, I can't really see you as an Amish wife. And if you reply to this feel free to call me 'honey' even though I am half you age;)

Thanks Jem.  I like that perspective.

Marcia

Liz,

Sorry, that should have read...ummm...ouch...twice your age!

Jem,
I appreciate your ability to look beyond all of the "stuff" and find the value in individuals and messages.  I still seem to evaluate the whole package.  It's true that there are sincere, decent, down-home pastors out there, but the package that is presented is hard to look beyond.  I'm sure I need to look beyond -- to the message and the individual.

I appreciate your point about wanting to be THE MAN.  Because I'm sure that my critical spirit (developed so well in the assembly) that finds fault with everything comes from a position of "knowing" better (ha).

I also think that part of my/our problem is the lack of variety of churches that are in our town.  We've tried baptist, John McArthurism, calvary offshoot, and nazarene.  The people in every group are like I described below: either extreme homeschoolers, or ladies with breast implants and mini skirts.  Maybe I need to move to a new town to find moderate but sincere Chrsitians?!

Elizabeth,
I can't believe you sampled all of those things post-assembly and still have a solid core belief!  Especially since you were fed assemblyism since birth.  How did your faith remain so balanced and intact?  Did you ever throw it all off and re-evaluate?  That's where I have found myself mostly: rejecting and trying to reestablish.  I'm still kind of sowing my wild oats though and enjoying it.  You know; clothes, alcohol, playing on Sundays -- my smorgasbord doesn't have much to do with church.

me

Lol, me. I totally know what you mean about the abundance of cleavage & visible thongs. It completely floored me at first. But then I got over it. Hey, at least they're in church, right? And also, if I'm going to be honest, some of these women looked really great! Tanned, in good shape, smiling. What's better: happy women with breast implants or dour, depressed, overly burdened women "rejoicing in the Lord." (other posters: I'm just horsin' around here, I know the two are not mutually exclusive, so don't start lecturing me!)

Living in SoCal we see a lot more plastic enhancements than in more conservative states, I suspect.

How did I maintain my faith? I'll pm you about that. In a nutshell: God held me up. Everything else failed, but God was still there. I had found Him long before the system crashed.

I tried alcohol when we first got out. I don't particularly like it. I haven't acquired the taste for it. Probably started drinking too late in life. Sometimes I can stomach a teeny, tiny glass of wine, but usually I just stick to coffee & other radically caffeinated drinks.  :)

But boy do I love clothes!! oh yeah! And hair color and lipstick and perfume, pierced ears and dangly earrings and don't get me started on shoes, glorious shoes!! wheeeeeeee!

I read this thread with great interest and enjoyment.  I too feel a lot like "just me".  I am going to a Lutheran church right now.  I am most definitely not Lutheran, because I still believe that one must repent and believe in order to be saved, wheras Lutheran doctrine teaches that faith comes from being baptized ... even if you're a baby when you are baptized.  Nevertheless, I like this Lutheran church because they don't have a praise band gyrating in front of the congregation and cranking out music at 100 decibels while we all sing, "Lord, I just wanna lift my hands..." over and over.  They don't have elderly women handing out "Christian Voter Guides" as you leave the sanctuary.  They don't have a bunch of loud, high-pressure programs to cram down my throat.  Their pastors aren't trying to sell their latest books, nor is the organist trying to hawk her latest CD.  Their liturgy seems as timeless to me as sunrise and sunset, the cycle of the seasons.  Even though I often feel like the odd man out even there, yet they are easy on my nerves. 

And right now, that's a big criterion for me when choosing a church.  I think one thing that's wrong with some of the evangelical churches out there is that they are driven solely by the desire to get as many members as possible.  So they will do anything they can to achieve this goal - even if it is pushy or not in good taste.  And I think that many evangelical churches are simply part of a big business.  I told one retired evangelical pastor about my assembly experience and my present attitude toward church, and he began to rebuke me, saying that I had "a trust problem."  Wrong move, buddy!  I tried another evangelical church where it seemed like the elders were almost ordering people to get into their "grace groups."  I don't order people anymore.  And no one is going to do it to me.

As far as feeling like the odd man out, I've just decided that I've got to be myself.  And rather than looking for "like-minded brethren" by trying to join "the right church", I've got to be open to good, quality friendships wherever I can find them.  This has been difficult...

Clarence Thompson

Clarence,

I found this to be difficult too.  People had made their friendships during the years I was devoting to the assembly, so I do feel like the odd man out sometimes.  Though everyone's really nice and all.  I also had to re-evaluate what 'friendship' is all about.  In the assembly it was like we were dependant on each other, but now I am dependant on the Lord and enjoy the fellowship of other believers.

Marcia

I agree, friendships are very difficult.  Everyone has their friends from High School, college, young marrieds bible study, family and they are all set in stone.  I, on the other hand, dissed everyone from High School.  My college friends were assembly people and those friendships failed.  I think it must take years now to establish good friendships -- I mean beyond acquaintances.  But then again, what do we expect from friendships?  Someone to make your dinner and clean your house on a moments notice 'cuz your sick?  Maybe that doesn't happen in the real word.

Ok.  What about controlling people.  Have you had your first run in (post assembly) with a real control freak?  We have had a coulple and man did it cause a reaction in us.  It was like a major hot button was pushed.  NO ONE IS EVER GOING TO CONTROL ME AGAIN.  I think that is what you were talking about, Clarence.

My husband has this guy at work.  This guy knows EVERYTHING!  He knows what decisions the boss should make on every level and continually tells him.  He has the boss' ear.  He tells the boss everything my husband is doing wrong from my husbands business to his secretary's business to the guy in the next office.  The boss listens.  My husband goes ballistic and starts calling this guy a sociopath like gg and is busy trying to defend himself to everyone in the company.  A bit of an overreaction.  My husband has calmed down but this guy keeps saying that he can't work under these conditions since my husband "hates him" (persecution complex) etc.  We're still waiting for the fall out.

You know who I react to?  Telemarketers and customer service people who tell me how I have to jump throiugh hoops for their service.  Weird.

You have got some nerve, trying to tell us who we should and shouldn't start lecturing!  This is an open forum, where freedom of expression is encouraged (or is it freedom of repression?  ...or regression?  I get those all mixed up).  Anyway, if you want to "horse around," you should do it on another thread-- this one is about cults!  See there, now you've gone and made me divert from the topic!
                    (the above message brought to you by the al Hartman iron(y) works)

---

About as near-perfect a statement as we have seen in awhile!

This morning I noticed this article on GA.com:

www.geftakysassembly.com/Articles/TeachingPractice/HealthyChurch.htm (http://www.geftakysassembly.com/Articles/TeachingPractice/HealthyChurch.htm)
www.geftakysassembly.com/Reflections/Home.htm#whatsnew (http://www.geftakysassembly.com/Reflections/Home.htm#whatsnew)

Marcia


Post-assembly, I have discovered that I have zero tolerance for hypocrisy, not just in churches, but also in families etc.  Families have these mini-cults, where they elevate one parent or individual, and disregard any criticism against that person.  So the one with the guts to actually speak up is alienated in the guise/desire to maintain the peace.  Sound familiar.

Marcia

Not sure which thread to comment on this one, but it seemed right here. We rented The Village and when it was over one of my teenagers said, "That creeped me out." And another one said, "Yeah, because that was a movie about the assembly."

Hi Everyone!


   Great thread and great discussion! :)

  I just love Clarence's attitude! And I am not trying to be cynical when I say that!  8)   Stick to your guns Clarence! 

   How about the verse that is always quoted to those not committed to a particular church:  "Forsake not the fellowship, etc"?

   How do you deal with the guilty feeling, either self induced or coming from a well-meaning exhorter, that in order to be loyal to God you must be "committed" to a particular church and "submit" yourself to those in spiritual authority?

  Do we have a "trust problem" that we have to work out, or is it that some may have a problem with the defintion of the word trust if it means an unqualified submission to the guy with the biggest bible? ???

   Great articles at the Assembly Reflections site.  Thank you Margaret and Steve for what you are doing there as I find the articles very relevant and helpful!!!

                                                       God Bless,  Mark C.

i just discovered a new cult! the Bush administration!  >:D

there's an article in TIME magazine this week about "political cronyism." Many presidents have filled vacant government jobs with political allies, but the Bush administration has apparently practiced this to an exponentially greater degree (witness the embarrassing resignation of FEMA director Browne: a man best known for his knowledge of Arabian horse breeding!).

there have also been White House sources who talk about how the White House is run like a tightly centralized monarchy, how information is tightly controlled, how the President doesn't read the paper, listen to opposing ideas or welcome debate. 

sound familiar?

Elizabeth,

Yeah, if you put it that way it sounds familiar, but what you described is politics as old as the two party system. Every administration runs like that. Clinton, Papa Bush, just keep going back. Politics is compromise. Politics is I-scratch-your-back-you-scratch-mine. When a man finally lands in the White House he has lots of promises and obligations to fulfill. TIME just reported it like it was new. It is a lousy system, but hard to fix. You'd be surprised at the number of Supreme Court justices who got into "the brethren" that way.

You want to see a fanatical, extremist, cultlike personality look at Barbara Boxer. Whoa, dude, there is something to be afraid of.

Folks,

As Winston Churchill said, Democracy is the worst form of government.....except for all the others.

Thomas Maddux

Hey Jem.

yeah, I agree with you. I was being sort of facetious in order to make a point. From what I can tell, group behavior and the cult of personality seems to spring up wherever "two or more are gathered"--whether this be in high school (cliques), in the office (favoritism/nepotism), even in such benign groups as Women's Bible Studies. In politics, both parties do this, I agree.

Do you watch the Daily Show with Jon Stewart? I love that show---with some exceptions; he can get unnecessarily crude and sometimes scarily irreverant, but I laugh so hard when watching that show. Because hypocrisy and contradictions exist on both sides of the aisle.

In fact, it would seem that being a hypocrite is a pre-requisite for being human. All of us at some point act/speak/behave hypocritically.

"Do I contradict myself? Very well, I contradict myself! I contain multitudes!" Walt Whitman.

 ;)

After I finished watching this movie I realized I had been chewing my fingernails the whole time. My poor fingers were completely battered. Understand that nail-biting is not something I ever do, just never been a habit of mine. But for some reason, this movie sent me straight into oral-fixation mode. Weird.

The Village? That reminds me of another great series from the 60's with Patrick McGoohan in a place called The Village. That's all the info he was given about where he had been brought. He is continually planning and attemping escapes, to no avail. The only happy ones there seem to have been brainwashed and react in a comical way to his questions.

The name of the series is THE PRISONER.

The comparison to assembly life is comical, tho the series is not a comedy. They are on tape and dvd and are worthwhile viewing even without the assembly comparisons.

I greatly enjoyed the Village.  In fact, I watched it twice the weekend I rented it.  I think it brings out two things.  For one, it shows folk's desire to create a world that is purer and better than the one they are in.  The desire for community is a very real one and it appeals to our heart.  I can see the attraction of the village.

On the other hand, in order to maintain this world, there had to be a certain measure of deception.  This deception was not to maintain a single person's selfish ambition (I think everyone in the movie had good, though perhaps misguided, motives) but to maintain the vision of the Village and to safeguard future generations.

Many of us spent much time in the Assembly because we saw it as a safe and pure village that protected us from the harsh world outside and was close to God's heart.  We were willing to do our part to maintain the vision (even if we suspected that it wasn't completly true) in order to safeguard the furtherance of our community for ourselves and our family. 

It was when we began to doubt the safety and integrity of the village and question how far we were willing to go to maintain its vision that our hearts began to move us towards the exit and back into the broader world.

I think the "Prisoner" series would appeal  more to the group of us who were pointing out the holes in the "dome" of the assembly and were hushed up or told that we were the problem and needed to change, and the experiences of those who left, than the group trying to maintain the "holiness" of the assembly.

There was no one whose support the prisoner could gain, no one that he could trust, and no one trusted him. His every move was monitored in every place and function he went, within the village, of course. He was suspect because of what the head honchos, who were protecting their organization, believed to be true, or because of the bogus information they had been fed from other #2 men.
 
Although it depicts life after leaving, or attempting to leave the organization, what goes on portrays the mentality of the mind set of the assembly.

This is from the jacket of the VHS: During production, McGoohan said that the purpose of THE PRISONER was "to create a feeling of unrest about life today. It was an abstract impression of the world we are living in and a warning of what would happen to us when gadgetry and gimmickry take over from creative people."

Rephrased it says: .....It was an abstract impression of the assembly bubble we were living in and a warning of what would happen to us when George and Betty take over.

It's a must see, really.

This series even has a cultish following..............hmmmmmm............maybe the annual worker's seminars involved watching these, for tips on maintaining GG's control  ;D

Oh, yes. And the Village Maxim: Questions are a burden to others; answers, a prison for oneself.   ;D

We saw The Village this weekend.  Okay -- it was spooky!  And the spooky stuff took a LONG time to resolve.  That was hard to take.  But the best line in the movie is when the girl talks to the young guy on the road as says something about his kindness and she wasn't expecting to find kindness on the outside. 

Isn't that the best expression of what we find when we come out from the deception?!  After the picture has been painted so bleak and scary for us for all those years, we find out that on the outside is freedom and kindness.  I remember my first year out from the assembly -- just feeling like I could breathe deeper and see more color in the world around me.  It felt sooooo good.

Yesterday my family and I decided that we would try church no. 6 (I think) in our locale, post assembly.  We decided to go to a Calvary Chapel (costa mesa offshoot).  We stayed 20 minutes.  We bolted for the door after the pastor did the following:  apparently there was a women's retreat going on.  He went on and on about how great it was that so many women were on the retreat, how great the retreat would be, how important it was for the women to be together for this etc.  He praised the families that were willing to make the sacrifice for the women to go.  They had sacrificed work, husbands had to get kids rallied and all.  Then he said he understood that there were women who wanted to go but couldn't for various reasons and God understood that and sympathized.  Then he said there were WOMEN WHO COULD GO BUT DIDN'T AND YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE AND WE ARE GOING TO TAKE THIS OPPORTUNITY TO PRAY THAT YOU WOULD CONFESS THIS AS SIN!!  He said that God wants bodylife not just church goers.  Then he proceeded to pray in that exact way.  So I guess this guy knows God's will for these women and can tell them.  Can you spell C-O-N-T-R-O-L?

Like I said, we bolted for the door at this point.  Am I being overly sensitive?  I couldn't imagine the rest of the congregation going along with this guy.  And if they do, then they must have the same belief/opinion as he does.  Those aren't the people that I want my family around.

Later in the day we got together with our friends from the pentecostal cult and boy did we have fun.  We spent 3 hours trading extreme stories about our cult backgrounds.  We thought they topped when they said the pastor of their church in California decided the church needed to move to Tennessee to avoid the judgment pending in California and 300 people upped and moved to Tennessee!  Without jobs, housing etc.  But they thought we won with our stories of stewardship charts and consequences. 

Boy it's good to be able to look back and laugh now.
Me

I could understand your sensitivity.  However, I would have to observe more to make a judgement.  Knowing Calvary Chapels, I doubt that he was trying to control to the same extent that control occurred in the Assembly.  In other words, I would guess that you could be at that church and respectfully disagree with the pastor's prayer (and even discuss it with him) and remain in good standing in fellowship.  Verbally disagreeing with George was not an option.  I don't know this for sure, of course, but that is my hunch based upon my experience with CC folks since 1976.

I think the pastor's prayer is indicitive of the discussion that went on and on about how we receive information from God.  That thought fell upon the pastor's heart, he took it as the voice of God and he prayed it.  In many circles, this is seen as being "led of the Spirit" and "hearing the voice of God" though it seems to me that the pastor's natural desire to motivate got wrapped up in the mix.  These type of concerns is why I (and I would guess Tom though I haven't discussed this with him) argue for more restraint, discernment, and objectivity in attributing a thought as coming from the very mouth of God.

Me,
We've had similar experiences at Calvary Chapel off-shoots. At one off-shoot that had just experienced a split (apparently a pastor had left suddenly and taken a bunch of people with him--which should have been our first clue, huh?), we heard that "leaving was unspiritual" and that "staying to work the problem out" was more Godly. They were also charging a $15 donation to attend their weekly Women's Bible Study. ???

It's been our experience that the younger the pastor, the more ambitious they are. And the younger the church (even calvary off-shoots), the more prone they are to what they euphemistically call "growing pains."   ::)

Because of our Assembly background, I'm just not able to go through a young church's "growing pains" and sit through prayers like the one you described.

Been there. Done that.

I just don't believe in THE CHURCH anymore. Maybe there's a place I can attend (for the time being and for the sake of my kids who absolutely LOVE sunday school), but I'm done searching for THEEE CHURCH.
 ;)

A couple of thoughts and I will be quiet for the rest of the day to allow for other thoughts.

1.  When we left in 1990, most folks went through the same problem of trying to find a church.  Most ended up at larger mega-churches because churches grew large for a reason - generally they are doing something right.  I know there are exceptions (and the exceptions are obvious).  The larger churches with an Evangelical statement of faith tend to be safer because no one person is going to drag the whole congregation off the deep end.  Further, if you avail yourself to smaller group opportunities (sunday school, mission team, home group, choir, etc.) you generally find some really godly people.  Yes, I know large churches also attract many pew-sitters, etc.  But, that is not everyone there as we were once led to believe.

2.  Smaller Bible studies often ask for a donation to pay for materials.  I was just in a group where we went through Every Man's Battle and I paid $10.00 for the book.  If I didn't have it, I'm sure they would have let me join anyway.  My wife does the same with her Beth Moore women's group.  It's not that unusual.

Hi Sondra,

Why do you persist?  It is evident that most of the remaining posters are not interested in your POV.  You have been "classified" as a deeper/higher life thinker, so anything you say will be viewed through those spectacles.

I must admit that I see your point, and agree with you for the most part.

The person who is full of the Spirit will want to study God's Word, and will/should be able to recognize when the teaching is aberrant or true.  Those who put too much emphasis on academics will sometimes fail to recognize what is staring them in the face, and will even use their academic training and education to shoot down any opposition.  This is where the similarity (with George) comes in, and the proof is what happened with the frank composite; an error in judgement was made by Tom and Joe (who happens to agree with Tom) because of TMI (too much information).

Plagiarism indicates that George had to resort to 'Chrisitianizing' his ministry without the leading of the Holy Spirit.  Also, the assemblies being similar to so many other aberrant groups further confirms that the natural man can intellectualize the Word without being sensitive to the Spirit and therefore end up with a false religious system akin to that of the Pharisees.  Yes the Word drew some, who were already involved in other groups, into the assembly, but it was the Word twisted to convince and lacking the message of grace.

An interesting comment from "just me":

If a pastor at my church preached or prayed that way, he'd be getting an immediate query from me.  Talk about putting on the pressure.  If it was my first visit, I'd be out the door too.

Re. paying for group attendance, I gave a lot more to the Geftakys ministry, so anything I dish out now is of no comparison.  $15/week does seem a bit high, but $15 per study(2,3,4 months) is a small amount considering the expense for coffee, and usage of the facilities and/or workbooks.

IMO, it is in the best interests for the sake of the children's future an one's own spiritual well-being, to become a regular attendee at a living growing church.  People have problems, so there is no such thing as a perfect church.  Here is an interesting quote from www.geftakysassembly.com/Articles/TeachingPractice/HealthyChurch.htm (http://www.geftakysassembly.com/Articles/TeachingPractice/HealthyChurch.htm)


Marcia

just me, (you gotta scroll way down to get back to the original topic of this thread).

We attend a Calvary Chapel that we have found quite healthy for us. One of the things that attracted us to it was their church value of adult to adult relationships. But what I have learned of Calvarys is that they can all be quite different. CCCM offshoots can really shoot off. Ours is a large one and, as Dave said, I think it is harder to suck a larger church down into the controlling, performance based vortex than a smaller one like you visited. If one of the pastors at our place had said what the pastor at the place you visited said, he would have a line of people to talk to afterward starting with the senior pastor (who is good friends with Ron Enroth and thought this Calvary was too controlling when he took the helm, so to speak).


P.S. I'm not trying to name call, belittle, or otherwise be nasty, so--as everyone says right before someone takes them wrong--don't get me wrong, but shouldn't this whole Jamison/Sperling back and forth be under the, um, headcovering thread? It seems all rabbit trails lead to the same place

hear, hear!

back to the topic at hand, if you will: Jem, we've tried several Calvary off-shoots as well and found just what you described. We also attended, as Clarence Thompson wrote about (like 3 pages ago!), a Lutheran church and found it very pleasant. For me, there was something safe in the denomination because I knew that no screw-ball guy was going to be able to drive the church off the cliff---there were over-seeing authorities keeping tabs on stuff. I liked that, I must say.

E.

When I left the Assembly, I went to a church called Creek Park Community Church in La Mirada.  About that time, there was someone who was leaving because they moved to Chino Hills.  The chuch gave a big pot luck for them and said many nice, affirming things about them.  (Much like the going away we got when we left the Assembly :'().

Seriously, it was a very nice going-away and I was very touched as the difference between that church and the Assembly was tremendously obvious.

But, getting to my point:  This family who was leaving said a few words.  The husband said that they were visiting an EV Free church in Chino Hills.  He said that instead of just attending Sunday morning, he attended the church's business meeting because he felt that it would give him a better understanding of how healthy the church was.

In retrospect, I can see the wisdom of this.  Is the church strong elders and weak pastor?  is the church strong pastor and rubber-stamp elder board?  Are they able to work well together and make thoughtful business, personell, and spiritual decisions?  As you get to know them do they seem to make compassionate yet reasonable decisions?  Are they generous in funds toward needs or are they stingy-hearted?  Do they tend to be feelers or thinkers? (Not saying one is better, but it is good to ask).  Is the emphasis doctrine or relationships or do they have a good mix of both?

Does their elder board (or deacons or whatever they happen to call them) represent a mix of good business people, good thinkers, those with a shepherds heart, and various age range?  For that matter, is the church a good mix or is it all young or all old?

Observe how they handle discipline cases.  Are the clueless?  Do they stick their head in the sand?  Or, on the other hand, are they defensive and harsh?  

Again, any group can find a compelling preacher and throw together a praise band (or litergy or whatever they do).  But a church that is managed well is central to that church's stability.

Selecting a church is a decision like buying a car.  Stay away from one that makes you feel uncomfortable and consider the one that you like.  But, don't expect any model to have every feature you are looking for.  After awhile, you are going to have to ask what is a "must have" and what is something you can accept.  For example, you may accept someone who isn't the greatest preacher if the church has a stable elder board and you feel that those in the church really care about you.  On the other hand, you may be interested in attending a church that is very missions-driven even though the driving distance means you will probably not have many friends there you can see mid-week.

Again, why are larger churches successful?  Because, often they do the basic stuff right.  They are able to manage the many people because they often have qualified leaders who manage things well.    Keep in mind that a larger church does not have to be 10,000 or more.  (These are mega-churches)  Those who study these things say that a church that breaks the 200 barrier (200 is about how many a single pastor can handle by himself without successfully working with others) and is around 500-1000 is considered a big church in many parts.

Every church I have been in has had some strengths that I admired and some things I was disappointed in.  I haven't been in a perfect, New-Testament church since the Assembly.   ::)

Sorry for the rambling post.

Demoninations, especially ones that have been around for quite some time, tend to stable, predictable and very hard to move into cultic practice.  Many mainline denominational churches can be quite vibrant and dynamic.  Others can be quite....consistent.  

While the average Lutheran church isn't going to start speaking in tongues and begin a month long study on submission to authority, if there does happen to be something evil in the closet, (usually sexual sin, or embezzlement) the very stability and organization that cult-proofs the church can be used to shelter the pastor and elder from exposure.

The great thing about church and churches is that we can put our cars into a different parking lot whenever we feel like it.  Calvary Chapels have their share of problems, like everyone else, but they also have many really great churches.  

Also, I'm sorry to have taken the thread off course.  I actually forgot what the original topic was!

bystander

I don't know precisely where this post belongs...anyway, here goes.  I really have enjoyed this particular thread, because it discusses the real-life experiences of those who are coming out of a cultic, abusive experience.  Now, some of you may feel somewhat offended by what I'm about to say, but please understand that I am not telling you what to do; I'm simply stating a personal preference.

First, right now, the thing I most enjoy reading is personal accounts of the post-abuse journeys we are all undertaking.  What I don't enjoy is seeing people with big Bibles, ranged against each other like knights with long lances, mounted on war-horses, battling each other to the death over points of doctrine.  My mind is made up regarding my Assembly experience, and my view of most of the former leaders of the Assembly.  In a nutshell, I think they were crooks, and that all that they did and taught was done deliberately to enable one corrupt man to wield control over us all.  I was very angry at the former leaders for a while, and very, very angry about what had been done to me.  Now I'm not nearly as angry.  All I want to do is learn how to move on from it all.

So I don't particularly enjoy the posts of some who, for motives I consider questionable, want us to try to see the good in our Assembly experience, or who say, "There was much good in the Assembly."  To me, that's like making a bowl of potato salad out of the finest ingredients, with the best of care, and then leaving it in the back of a hot car for three hours during the hottest day of the year, and asking people at a church picnic to "just try and eat around the bad parts."

And regarding the Bible, I have fired most of the experts who came along to say, "We'll be your one true source, your one-stop shop for Scripture interpretation."  It's not that I don't listen to teachers or read books.  Rather, it's that I don't listen to people who tell me that "this is the way it is, and there is no other way, and buddy, you'd better believe it", especially about things that are non-essential.  I don't really care about comparing the King James Bible to other translations, or the finer points of Calvinism, or Dr. Ridderbos' interpretation of amillenialism.

I am still a Christian, and I still want to live as a witness in the world.  But the thing I really need help with is getting past the issues which, I believe, are common to many of us.  For instance, I still have dreams about the Assembly - and I've been out for two and a half years!  In a recent dream I had I was yelling at the leaders.  How does one get past that?  Here's another one: As Christians, we are supposed to be in submission to the Scriptures.  Yet when I read certain passages, a flood of negative flashbacks washes over me.  Does anyone have experience in dealing with that?  Or how about this: the Bible says we are to forgive those who wrong us.  Has anyone been able to do that with former Assembly abusers?  I'm not talking about giving these people the title deed to your possessions.  But I am talking about releasing these people in such a way that you can get on with your life.  Here's another one: how to handle relationships, especially in church, in a post-Assembly world.  And here's a final question: What are we all doing now with our lives?

Thoughts, anyone?

Clarence Thompson

Clarence,


1. I had the "flashback" feelings come to me on many occassions.  Getting into relationships with godly men who cared enough to let me talk it out was a big help.  Even then, it took a few years before this stopped happening.  However, I worked my way out of the assembly over time, so I didn't get the big shockaroonie of the sudden revelations and fall of the assembly empire.

2. Regarding forgiveness, I was greatly helped by Charles Stanley's book, "Forgiveness".  Seems that if we don't forgive, (you never forget), the "ghosts" of the past have power over our emotional and thought lives in the present.  I refer to our rehashing of the things that were said and done to us, all the slights, injustices, lies, on and on that we all experienced.  When we do this, we cannot help but revisit the feelings those things caused and can still cause.

One technique he recommended helped me to get free from the power of the memory of a wound to my soul that far surpassed anything GG ever did.  I can say this, it really helped.  If you want to know more, e-mail me, or better, give me a ring.

3. This has received a lot of attention on the thread, "Wounded Pilgrims".  Mark Campbell has done a lot of thinking on this issue.

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

Wish I'd said that.   ;)

Thomas Maddux

Hi Clarence,

One reason I have participated on this thread is because the discussion is relevant to "today's" experiences.

I feel for the victims of abuse, especially when the effects of that abuse remain even today; I cannot say more without revealing confidentialities.  However, I find that I am angry at those unrepentant leaders, and those leaders who left the system when their local assembly crumbled but boast about how they saw right through George and never really participated in the abuse. ::)

I cannot change those leaders, and I cannot let the assembly continue to 'control' my life.  Tom's advise is good re. getting into relationships with godly men who have the time to let you talk it out.  In my case, my cell (small) group hosting family has become that "listening" ear for me, and I for her.

Many of the evangelical churches host "courses" like the Alpha program, or Networking(spiritual gifts) seminars, or small group studies, or... .  If time and priorities permit, then those are opportunities to connect with other Christians.

Marcia

P.S. I love listening to Newsboys Devotion and Adoration CDs.
MM

i appreciate you being willing to open up so candidly about this stuff, clarence. and you are asking some great questions. i still have assembly dreams as well, especially if i have been talking to someone about the assembly recently. for instance i was going though some old boxes this past weekend and came across a couple boxes full of notebooks - all of them cover-to-cover meticulous notes taken throughout my life being raised in the assembly. they chronicle my struggle to make believable sense out of the inherently flawed system of living i was presented with from childhood and sincerely believed in for much too long. i didn't open any of them, but i didn't throw them away either. i sweat blood to get all that documentation, i'm not about to just toss it all. maybe some day they will prove useful for writing a book or some such. but seeing them stirred up enough thoughts and memories to prompt an assembly dream. for me they are no longer nightmares - i just wake up feeling kind of oddly disoriented. going to church or reading the bible can really freak me out sometimes, but not always. i concentrate more on living life as well as i can than on making sure i'm submitting to all the right scriptures. and if anyone comes running up to me waving scriptures in my face telling me i need to submit to them, they will likely lose the hand thats waving them.

brian

Brian,
A couple months ago I, too, found some old meeting notebooks. I was appalled at how meticulous & psychotically detailed my notes were. I had carefully laid out complete outlines, indented with numbered and alphabetically categorized bullet points with the corresponding verses. My printing was impeccably neat, the letters formed perfectly and so absolutely tiny. Almost like a font. Penmanship became an art form (and a way to kill time during the meetings---couldn't be faulted for writing too many notes, right?).

Some of my current friends (non-Assembly) have often remarked on my beautiful penmanship. I just say, "Well, I practiced penmanship quite a bit growing up."  ;)

Now that I think about, my insanely impeccable notes must have been my way of excercising complete control over something in my life---all other areas were completely surrendered to the will of my parents, grandparents, the testimony, etc. etc.

I, too, will never throw the notebooks away.

E.

I remember something kind of funny. I was actually still in the Assembly when it happened,
but I still remember it. In one of the brother's houses we began to  meet in the living
room for 6:00 A.M. "morning time". We'd open in prayer and then all spread out to different
areas on couches, chairs, etc kneeling in front of our Bibles.

I decided one morning that I was going to re-study a Seminar, so I brought my detailed
notebook for the first meeting of the Seminar(I don't recall which Seminar it was now).
So, I was kneeling in front of the couch next to another brother, and began my study.

I began to hear the brother next to me making noises like he was upset about something(you
know, kind of like whining sounds of discontent). I heard this coming from a few of the other
brothers too. After the morning time, the head of the house asked me what I was doing during
the morning time, because I was making so much noise he couldn't concentrate.

What I hadn't realized is that by trying to follow the Seminar, I was constantly flipping back and
forth in my Bible to the verses George had referenced. While you're at the Seminar, everyone is
flipping to the same verses you are---but when you are in a quiet setting and do the same it has quite a different effect. It truly is amazing if you look at the notes from a Seminar, the amount of
references there are.

Now, when I watch a preacher on television(Charles Stanley, Greg Laurie, etc.) I notice how they
will take one verse and then literally feed you by expounding on that one subject. George's method of teaching was quite different, with so much flipping back and forth, that I understand now why
many times I felt confused and unsure of what he was trying to teach. But the notes I took were
meticulous---also the tiny notes I put throughout my Bible are extremely neat, and put together as though I were writing an essay.  I still have many of the notebooks after all of these years and would
never throw them away.

--Joe

I still have alot of my notes taken and recently I went thru some of them and I couldn't believe how detailed I was back then. I remember coming back from midwest seminars with pages and pages of notes. I wouldn't throw them out either. It took alot of work to take those notes and I still have the bible I was using back then with all the notes in it and pages falling out because I was contantly flipping pages back and forth.

Hi Clarence,

I'm running a few days behind on this thread & just read your excellent post.  Thanks for sharing your experiences.  Here are a few of mine, in response to your request for thoughts:


After being out for over 25 years, I still have an occasional assembly dream, but they have become pretty few and far between.  In my case, I think a key factor is something Tom touched on somewhere recently, when he pointed out that George appealed to weaknesses we already had.  George & my late father had many traits in common, even though dad was unreligious.  In my dreams they are actually sometimes interchangeable.

As for getting past such dreams, I have found a solution in prayer.  Whenever I have a troubling dream of any kind, I take it to the Lord:  I tell Him that I know it could only have come to me because He allowed it.  I ask Him to show me the dream's purpose, OR to help me simply get over it, AND to help me be satisfied with either result.  Sometimes I actually learn something from the dream, but most often I am able to simply let it go as I learn to trust Him with my mental well-being.


Initially, I had this reaction to the whole Bible; later with just certain passages or themes.  In recent years I have realized that I had to decide whether or not to recognize the Bible in its entirety as God's inspired Word.  Having made what I am certain is the right decision, I now deal with my reaction issues in a similar manner to the way I deal with the dreams.  I pray, asking Him to teach me to trust Him when I have these reactions, to help me differentiate between my emotional kneejerks and the influence of His Spirit.  He does.


This one has come much easier for me because of the scriptural perspective of Mt.5:44; Lk.6:27-28; Rom.12:14, 17-21; Jas.1:2-4; 1Pet.4:12-14; etc.  Now, I don't pretend that this came, or comes, easily-- it does not.  But, believing that if God instructs it, then it must be both possible and practicable, I pray for understanding and guidance as each situation arises. 

As for praying for those who abuse me, I am generally clueless as to what God wants to do in their lives, so it's pretty much a matter of just asking Him to do it (whatever it may be) and believing that He will take it from there & will convict me if more is required of me.


This one probably varies widely, according to our individual personalities.  For me, it has been the adoption of the X-Files theme: "Trust no one."  On its surface, this may sound very cold, skeptical and negative, but I see it more in light of the old familiar song, "...I dare not trust the sweetest frame, but wholly lean on Jesus' Name.  On Christ the solid Rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand..."  That is to say that I don't look suspiciously at everyone-- I'm simply learning (and praying to learn) that in every situation my only safety is in trusting and looking to Christ.  Unless I acknowledge Him as sovereign in every area of my life and commit all my relationships to Him, how can I expect to succeed in any kind of relationship?

 
As you may know, I am retired, but my wife is still working.  We have four grown children and four grandchildren, none of whom we see very often, chiefly due to distance & finances.  God has graciously placed us in a wonderful church, where we are growing and helping others to grow.  Nothing goes on in our lives that is likely to show up on the six o'clock news, but we find plenty to pray about and are learning to live what we consider "normal" (as opposed to "average") lives.

God bless,
al

Hi Clarence and eveyone else!

  I would have missed your great post Clarence if Al had not discovered it and brought it to my attention (thanks Al).

  To me Clarence has asked the questions that are the most important for former members to answer, though our particular needs may not include each and every question that Clarence asks.

 1.) I had nightmares when I first left on a regular basis for about a year or so.

 One I particularly remember and can describe:  I was on a hill over-looking the Valley and GG, the Full. leaders, and the Valley Bros. were all around me in a circle and all looking down at their bibles.

  There was total silence for a long time and then one of the bros.'s asked me, "why did you leave?"  I would then wake up in a very emotional state of both terror and anxiety (remember at this time GG's corruption, and the Assembly leaders complicity in his evil, had yet to be made public).

   It came to a day when I was reading a book on Christian liberty and realized that God was not the great despot in the sky---- intent on making me holy via destroying my personality.

   The Assembly had made me very aware of how sinful, weak, and generally unworthy of God that I was.  Decades of trying to produce inner purity, and failing, left me with the conclusion that God maybe loved me---- in some kind of general "spiritual sense"----- but he really didn't like me much ???!

  "huh?" some may be saying now, "loved you but didn't like you?!"  I know it sounds weird, but it was the difference between my doctrinal beliefs and how I really felt about God--- you know, the difference between what I knew was a correct teaching in the world of theological theory and how my faith affected my emotional state.

   Dreams are a direct result of our emotional state and fixing our inner lives cannot be accomplished by reason and will alone. 

  Now, and of course, it also included my reason and will, but when the problem is a broken heart,just fixing confused thinking is not the entire answer--- or least it wasn't in my case.

  Liberty from these bad dreams, as well as waking anxieties, came to me as I realized that God really did love me--- not in a general/non-specific, cold/un-feeling, distant/removed, kind of way, but in a very special, personal, intense, and yes--- emotional kind of way.

   God weeps when I'm in pain, and really cares about how I feel! God really does intend good and blessing for me---- He is not about to "break" me, in some kind of spiritual murder of my soul, in a effort to "save" me!!

  You see, in my Assembly experience I had a split personality; one part was good and the other part was bad. God "loved" the good, but hated the bad!  Since I never could completly get rid of the less than perfect part of me that was never really accepted by God, I was filled with great anxiety over my relationship with God!

   This great anxiety filled my soul for decades and at times made me physically ill, or just totally burned out emotionally.

   Anyway, after I had the revelatory event that I describe above I did have the dream one more time.  The bros. gathered around me, as stated above, but this time I started to answer them and one by one they all just disappeared and I was on the hill by myself. :)

  Now, I still am a sensitive soul, and can easily get back into my ol' Assembly soul searching melancholy false holiness anxieties, but these sessions are much less frequent and intense than the previous ones'.

  I liked to take a stab at answering the other very fine questions you asked, but this is getting too long as it is.  With your permission I will attempt the others later.  Thanks again for asking and for your entire post which imho is suitable for framing!

                                        God bless,  Mark C.

(red color change is mine)
Mark, were you #2?   ;D   In The Prisoner series, 2 was the number given to the man who left his organization and was constantly questioned, followed, and drugged after he was brought to a gimmicky little town, where everyone was a number, to try to determine why he left the organization. "Why did you leave?" was the constant question.

Too real.  ;D Thanks for sharing.

Moonflower2

Hi Moonflower!

  I am not familiar with the "Prisoner series" but it does sound very much like it was taken from some of my nightmares!

  My response to Clarence goes to his questions re. his continual struggles with how he feels (his honest questions re. his struggles provide very helpful insight into what many former members are still trying to grapple with) describe the point that I always make that doctrinal issues are not the only one's former members need to face after leaving.

  Jesus came to heal the "broken-hearted", and this means the restoration of the deeply disappointed and discouraged soul.

   Most Assembly members did not base their involvement with the group on the rational study of the Bible, but on the basis of their own emotional need to be accepted by the group.  It is dishonest to think that our decisions (even those we would call spiritual) do not have a very large emotional component to them.

  It is very true, however, that some of us tend to be more emotional than the next member, and consequently will feel more deeply hurt from our past participation in the group.

   The answer, imho, is not to seek to squelch/subdue these feelings of anger against injustice, of being badly used in the name of God, and of the lost years stolen from us.   

  One of Clarence's questions was about "forgiving these former leaders."  Some that answer such a question seem to suggest the idea that our feelings of loss and anger are just as bad as the actions of the former leaders in abusing their power.

  The idea put forward above tries to force a kind of moral equivalency where God makes both parties, abuser and abused, equally culpable for their behavior while in the Assembly.

  Thus, the argument goes, "one just needs to put aside their hurt feelings and love these individuals who:

  1.) Refuse to even talk with the former aggrieved member.

   2.) Do not admit to any specific wrong doing at all (they may offer a general kind of apology that states: "if, I have done anything, etc.")

   It is my opinion that God is very unhappy with the former leaders above, and understands why former members like Clarence feel the way they do!   Clarence's hurt feelings are a very reasonable and just response to the very unreasonable and unjust response of those that treated him poorly for decades!

  Does that mean that former members need to be buried in bitterness and that there is no place to find freedom from the turmoil they feel?

  If trying to bury my feelings doesn't work what am I suppose to do with them?  It doesn't help much to just tell me that it is normal to have these kinds of feelings and that eventually they will go away.

  I know, and I don't pretend to possess some kind of "holy grail" that will provide the answer for each and every former member suffering with this.  There are a few general kind of principles that I hope some will find helpful.

 1.) God is just and is passionately opposed to (even Christians) using God's name in the abuse of others.

  One only need read Jesus' words to the Pharisees (MT. 23, etc) to see how strong and passionate he was re. this.

  God promises to deal with these kind of folks in judgment peronsally, and this means none of these unrepentant abusers are going to escape unpunished---- even if they really are believers gone bad.

  This takes the load of vengence off of me and gives me place to lay all my feelings that "they're just going to get away with this" into the truly caring and just hands of God.

2.) It is wrong to suggest that my feelings of resentment are "sinful" when in truth they arise from the conduct of others against me--- and again, these wrongs were done by those claiming God's authority to do so.

  Much of the lack of success in dealing with "bitter feelings" is because we feel guilty for just having these feelings in the first place.  As Christians we are taught to "turn the other cheek", and this is sometimes interpretated as becoming  a door mat for whoever gets their jollies from controlling us.

  This becomes a vicious cycle when bad feelings against the Assembly arise, then guilt following---- which leaves us in a very heightened emotional state.   This constant churning within leads to the nightmares, more anxiety, and thus continues to control us even years after leaving! :'(

  I have found that this cycle stops when I undersstood that there is no guilt in realizing that those that abused me were wrong and that it is okay to face and denounce those who wronged me.  Also, that God fully understands why I feel the way I do and that I can freely pour out my heart to Him who seeks to mend my broken heart.

   There are some more, but this is too long already.

                                                God Bless,  Mark C.
     

   

   

Clarence et al.

I can't believe that you can stomach keeping your old meeting notes!  Why do you do it?  Evidence for years of wasted time?

The only things I save are things that I feel might be incriminating or delivering for some schmuck who still needs clarification on why it was so bad.  Like my notes on wife training and the cycle of child training and workers' characteristics. Any of those will make you really nauseated if you read them today.


So we are coming up on three years of deliverance -- for all of you who had to wait until the bitter end to leave.  And my spouse and I are finally thinking about going back to church.  He attended a church last week and it was the first time in three years that he didn't have anything negative to say about it.  Well he attended the adult Bible Study and it had music, ministry, fellowship and he liked it.  He doesn't want to go near the "sanctuary" service.  But isn't that an amazing step?  I was shocked.  7 churches and 3 years later and we are (maybe) healing.

We have come to realize, as most of you here, that there are cultic/strange tendencies in every group situation.  We are looking for the least offensive that we can blend into.

One final unrelated note. Does anyone still get angry thinking about the continued abuses of GG and company in existing assemblies?  I must admit that I have cooled considerably.  Every once in a while though I think about creepy people like GG, Jim McAllister, Scott Testa and company and their poor abused wives and families.  For a moment I feel like I should do something, then I realize I tried and failed and there is nothing left to do -- frustrated but finished fighting.

Me

Hi,
I keep my notes as a reminder of the hard work I put in. Once things for sure I sure have learned to be detailed as a result and know the value of time. Some of the notes I keep to remind me of how not to treat my wife and children. being a new husband and father The notes kind of give me a guide of what works and what doesn't(in the case of the notes maybe what doesn't) but then there is Gods word and prayer to help sort it out. I still get angry when i think about these men. I like what Mark C said in an earlier post "I have found that this cycle stops when I undersstood that there is no guilt in realizing that those that abused me were wrong and that it is okay to face and denounce those who wronged me.  Also, that God fully understands why I feel the way I do and that I can freely pour out my heart to Him who seeks to mend my broken heart." Sometimes I feel like I failed but then I realize that God delivered me from the assembly because He cares. I  have been out of the assembly 7 years and those 7 years I have seen healing. I couldn't go near a church until I met my wife.
Thats just what I think tho. Still got a long way to go 

It's taken a while for me to get back to your post.  In March or April of 2003, in a fit of anger, I trashed everything I could find in my house from the meetings and seminars.  The first thing to go was George's book of poetry (btw, calling it poetry was quite a stretch.  To me, on a technical level it was like sand, rocks and Portland cement poured into an excavation without adding water first).  I think I kept one notebook with notes from a seminar George gave back in 1981 called "The Fountain of Life."  I guess I kept it for forensic reasons, since during that seminar he painted such an unattainable picture of Christianity that many of us started doubting our salvation.  And during that time he was already forcing himself on other women!  Funny thing is, that notebook got wet during last year's rainy season, and got mildewed.

I no longer get mad about those in continuing assemblies.  For one, it is too exhausting.  There came a point where I just had to let go and let God be God.  One other note: at work, they're moving us around to different cubicles, so now we have to throw away all our accumulated junk.  Engineers tend to be pack rats - especially because we think, "Suppose someone wants to ask about Project X five years from now...?"  Anyway, I found an old copy of Tim G's tract, "The Christian and Christmas."  I looked at it for a few seconds, then tore it up with a vehemence that would have surprised anyone who was looking (fortunately, no one was).

Oh, and I think I still have notes from training junior high school students to be a good witness.  They were given to me by someone who used to be in the Placentia assembly.  If you want the Twilight Zone, try reading those...

Clarence Thompson

A couple years ago I discovered my old Cambridge wide margin KJV that I carried faithfully to every meeting, including seminars, and used in what passed for my daily devotions in those days.  I had long thought that I had discarded it, but it showed up in the bottom of a box of miscellany, smelling of mildew.

Inasmuch as that book represented an extensive investment of my time, I used Lysol & Febreeze to deodorize it, and began to examine it.  To my great surprise, the majority of my marginal scribblings make sense & are actually encouraging.  It appears that in the midst of all that was going on I was seeing some spiritual truths & jotting them down instead of following the "ministry."  I imagine that if anyone in authority had ever borrowed my Bible, I would have had some 'splainin' to do. :o

As for my notebooks, T&Ts, etc., I have no idea which landfill they ended up in... ::)

I was going thru some things in in a closet and came accross my old Cambridge. I didn't look thru it but I know that while many of the things I heard from GG were well you know. I made alot of notes during the meetings and daily reading that i still value. I put alot of time putting those notes in there if anything no one could say I wasnt listening ;D