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The front page of the times has an article written by a journalist who laments the fact that his nephew has joined the marines. He feels that his nephew has not made a "...well informed choice..." but has been "...manipulated..." by the President and recruitment officers. Along with this I found the nephew's own words very revealing. The nephew wrote the following to his uncle, "What I want for my life is to stand above the majority." "I believe in honor, discipline, courage....I wish to be bigger than myself, to be a part of something more-something important-something significant...." I think I wrote down these same words in my journal when I joined the Assembly.  I  am not going to take the time to match up all of the similarities between the military and the Assembly (Maybe someone else would like to?) but I can't help but think about it from time to time.

Dave,

You wrote:

I think that the nephew is simply stating a desire that is shared by a large percentage of young people, and many older ones as well.  The desire for purpose and signifigance, to devote oneself to a higher and worthy cause, to be part of a community of people of the same mind, is a common human characteristic.

This desire can be utilized by cults, political movements, environmentalist movements, whatever.  All it takes is a charismatic leader who can activate this facet of human personality and channel it into his particular cause. 

The basic desire is there in some degree in almost everyone.  It is the value of the particular cause it is channeled into that counts.  GG used it to recruit for his cult.  John F. Kennedy used it to recruit for the Peace Corps. 

Remember, "Ask not what your country can do for you, but ask what you can do for your country"?

Tom Maddux

I think that the nephew is simply stating a desire that is shared by a large percentage of young people,

 I think the military (just like cults) exploits this desire. This desire is associated to other things as well. Many young men join the service in order to break out of the subservient role between father and son.  I have actually seen commercials demonstrating this. The 'boy' has returned from boot camp but he is no longer "boy" he is "Man"  If it were that simple it would be nice.

btw One of the cable stations I watch is primarily for youth. It is surfing, skateboarding, snow-boarding, motocross, etc...  Guess who the main advertiser is?  "Be All You Can Be" "An Army of One" I wonder why the military isn't focussing on older guys like us? Is it because  "Older people have lost the vision!" or are we less apt to believe what they are really telling us? 

Dave,

  One of the guys who I work with was in the Army reserves and went over to serve in Iraq for a little more than a year.  I think he was about 45 when he went over there and he would have been able to get out of going but felt his involvement was a worthy effort.

  In talking with him I discovered that there were quite a few just like him who went over to Iraq or Afghanistan to serve.  You probably remember the football player who went to Afghanistan as an Army Ranger and was accidently killed by friendly fire.  He gave up a starting NFL job to participate and was inspired to do so by 9-11. 

  It is not having a desire "to be a part of something bigger than ones own self" that is automatically a cultish inclination.   It becomes cultish when that something bigger is meant only to serve the needs of the group leader and to further his selfish goals.

   If the goal is to oppose evil, as our forces did in opposing Hitler, than a WW 2 veteran can be proud that he was part of something bigger than himself that did a great good.   Some have argued that the distinctions between good and evil may have been less clear in Vietnam and therefore the military was not involved in a worthy goal.  The millions of Vietmanese that perished as a result of our leaving may not agree with this view.  Nor do I think that those millions from the "killing fields" in Cambodia who were slaughtered by the Khmer Rouge thought our leaving the region was good as well.  :'(

 The terrible evil that is radical Islam is worse than Nazism ever could be and if we allow these types to grow and flourish in the Mid East it most certainly will lead to a huge war of whose proportions would dwarf any previous encounter we've had.  These types only understand strong resistance and see talk as being cheap, and the actions of a weak enemy.

   Fighting against those that want to destroy us, take our liberty from us, force us to convert to their religion (or if we don't kill us) is a cause that is bigger than any one individual, but it is a very noble desire to be aligned with. 

                                                                  God Bless the USA and our military,  Mark C.

   

Marc, Tillman's death was manipulated by senior officers in order to premote Bush's failing agenda. His personal beliefs about God etc...were trashed by another senior official. I'm not sure he is someone you want to use as an example of NOT being used for someones selfish goals.

[edit]Controversy regarding Tillman's death

   This article documents a current event.
Information may change rapidly as the event progresses.
A report described in The Washington Post on May 4, 2005 (prepared upon the request of Tillman's family) by Brig. Gen. Gary M. Jones revealed that in the days immediately following Tillman's death, U.S. Army investigators were aware that Tillman was killed by friendly fire, shot three times to the head.[6] Jones reported that senior Army commanders, including Gen. John Abizaid, knew of this fact within days of the shooting but nevertheless approved the awarding of the Silver Star, Purple Heart, and a posthumous promotion. The citation report accompanying these awards said that Tillman was killed by enemy forces and contained a detailed account of the supposed battle—which Army leadership knew had never taken place.
Jones reported that members of Tillman's unit burned his body armor and uniform in an apparent attempt to hide the fact that he was killed by friendly fire. Several soldiers were subsequently punished for their actions by being removed from the United States Army Rangers.[7] Jones believed that Tillman should retain his medals and promotion, since, according to Jones, he intended to engage the enemy and, in Jones's opinion, behaved heroically.[7]
Tillman's family was not informed of the finding that he was killed by friendly fire until weeks after his memorial service, although at least some senior Army officers knew of that fact prior to the service.[7] Tillman's parents have sharply criticized the Army's handling of the incident; they charge that the Army was more concerned about protecting its image and its recruiting efforts than about telling the truth.[citation needed]
His mother Mary Tillman told The Washington Post, "The fact that he was the ultimate team player and he watched his own men kill him is absolutely heartbreaking and tragic. The fact that they lied about it afterward is disgusting." Tillman's father, Patrick Tillman, Sr., was incensed by the coverup of the cause of his son's death, which he attributed to a conscious decision by the leadership of the U.S. Army to protect the Army's image.
"After it happened, all the people in positions of authority went out of their way to script this. They purposely interfered with the investigation; they covered it up. I think they thought they could control it, and they realized that their recruiting efforts were going to go to hell in a handbasket if the truth about his death got out. They blew up their poster boy."[8]
He also blamed high-ranking Army officers for presenting "outright lies" to the family and to the public.[9]
Later, Tillman's father suggested in a letter to The Washington Post that the Army hierarchy's purported mistakes were part of a pattern of conscious misconduct:
With respect to the Army's reference to 'mistakes in reporting the circumstances of [my son's] death': those 'mistakes' were deliberate, calculated, ordered (repeatedly), and disgraceful—conduct well beneath the standard to which every soldier in the field is held.[10]
These complaints and allegations led the Pentagon's Inspector General to open a further inquiry into Tillman's death in August 2005.[11]
On March 4, 2006, the U.S. Defense Department Inspector General directed the Army to open a criminal investigation of Tillman's death. The Army's Criminal Investigative Division will determine if Tillman's death was the result of negligent homicide.[12]
On March 26, 2007, the Pentagon released their report on the events surrounding Tillman's death and coverup.
On April 24, 2007, his brother Kevin Tillman, testifying at a congressional hearing, stated, "The deception surrounding this case was an insult to the family: but more importantly, its primary purpose was to deceive a whole nation. We say these things with disappointment and sadness for our country. Once again, we have been used as props in a Pentagon public relations exercise."[13]
After Kevin's testimony Pete Geren, acting secretary of the Army stated to reporters, "We as an Army failed in our duty to the Tillman family, the duty we owe to all the families of our fallen soldiers: Give them the truth, the best we know it, as fast as we can."[13]
[edit]Political views

The September 25, 2005 edition of the San Francisco Chronicle newspaper reported that Tillman held views which were critical of the Iraq war and did not support President Bush's re-election. According to Tillman's mother, a friend of Tillman had arranged a meeting with Noam Chomsky, to take place after his return from Afghanistan. Chomsky has confirmed this. [14] The article also reported that Tillman urged a soldier in his platoon to vote for John Kerry in the 2004 U.S. Presidential election.[11]
[edit]Religious beliefs

According to speakers at his funeral, he was very well-read, having read a number of religious texts including the Bible, Quran and Book of Mormon as well as transcendentalist authors such as Ralph Waldo Emerson and Henry David Thoreau; his younger brother Rich stated that he "isn't with God... He wasn't religious."[15] Another article quotes him as having told then-general manager of the Seattle Seahawks Bob Ferguson in December 2003 that "you know I'm not religious".[16]
[edit]Controversial criticisms

Rest of article:
Lieutenant Colonel Ralph Kauzlarich, Regimental Executive Officer at Forward Operating Base Salerno on Khowst, Afghanistan under which Tillman was serving at the time of his death, has made critical statements about the Tillman family’s search for the truth based on Tillman's apparent agnosticism. In comments to ESPN, Kauzlarich said: "These people have a hard time letting it go. It may be because of their religious beliefs" and "When you die, I mean, there is supposedly a better life, right? Well, if you are an atheist and you don’t believe in anything, if you die, what is there to go to? Nothing. You are worm dirt. So for their son to die for nothing and now he is no more... I don't know how an atheist thinks, I can only imagine that would be pretty tough."[21] It has been alleged that these statements by Lt. Col. Kauzlarich, a conservative Christian, were made because the officer was trying to divert attention from the role he may have played in the alleged coverup.


This is a perfect example of how a cult operates!

   Fighting against those that want to destroy us, take our liberty from us, force us to convert to their religion (or if we don't kill us) is a cause that is bigger than any one individual, but it is a very noble desire to be aligned with.


                This is true but has nothing to do with Iraq!   O.K. before we go round and round on this one why don't we move it to the" Iraq a good idea" Let's save this thread for comparing the U.S. military to a Cult.

I posted this same topic on another BB Oh this made me laugh!!!

Brother Jeff

In the broadest sense of the word, yes, the military is a cult.

I joined the Army in 1996. I arrived at Ft. Benning, GA for Basic Training in August, and within five minutes of my arrival I realized that my recruiters had lied to me in more ways than one and that I had made a horrible mistake. Our drill sergeants lied to us on at least one occasion about what was going on in the real, outside world. It didn't take long at all for me to realize that I was NOT cut out for military life. I spent ten very long, incredibly miserable weeks there. I got sent home because I couldn't run very far because some *&*^%^$ came to Basic with bronchitis and I got a very bad case of it that left me with a lot of @#$! in my lungs. My vision also has never been all that great, and I couldn't fire a rifle to their satisfaction. Murderers on Death Row are treated better than recruits in basic training are. I got really tired of being treated like #@!$ - worse than a murderer!    - because I made the mistake of signing on the dotted line to serve my country. The happiest day of my life was November 4, 1996 - the day I got out of that !@#$hole and came home.

But yes, the military is a cult - obviously not a religious cult, but a cult nonetheless.

A diffrent viewpoint.

Hmmm, how do I approach this? I spent nearly a quarter of a century in the U.S. Air Force (24 years, 3 months and 7 days to be exact), so I guess I have a bit of an insight into what the military is or isn’t. A cult is basically described as -
1 : formal religious veneration
2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
So let me tell you, the closest the military gets to religion is the very colorful, original and non-repetitive “taking the Lord’s name in vain” that all military men and women are quite versed in!
The military and cults do have a few traits in common, but their reasons for these traits have nothing in common. Cults demand strict obedience of it’s members to the cult’s dogma, this is because control of the member’s insures the continued existence of the cult. The military demands strict obedience of its members to the orders of superiors because obedience of the individuals serves to insure the survival in combat of the unit and the individuals that make up the unit. Cults insure this obedience through fear of eternal damnation. The military insures this obedience through intense training. Cults train for death, the military trains for life. I could continue, but I think you see what I mean. Discouragement of individual thought does not make a cult, it is the reason for the discouragement that separates cults from other organizations. - Heimdal

And another!

Is the military a cult? In my opinion it is not. It does, however, harbor a couple cults and even encourages their growth. The military, as an extension of the government, is supposed to be non-religious. Having said that, chapel and religious conversation is not only supported, it's encouraged.

Now, naturally there are five branches of the U.S. Military and there are numerous job classifications within each branch so there is no way I can make a generalization that all branched condone religiosity but the MOSs that I held in the Army (11B and 31B) were both jobs where prayer and worship was advocated. Of course, most military religious services are incredibly watered down, generic versions of the true form of itself. There is little to no fundamentalism in the military.

Also, the "no atheists in foxholes" cliche is a rather unfair assumption. There are many of us who break that mold.

Another.

I served in the US Navy in the early '70s. I never at any time got the impression that it was a cult, but it is a different type of culture. Some of my compatriots hated the military life, some really liked it and determined to "ship over" and make a career of it, and most were like me. Served with pride and honor, accepted the military rules and regs, and the sometimes petty stuff that goes with it, but no wish to make a life work of it. Overall, I've always considered my years in uniform a good life experience.

Dave,

I spent four years in the USAF.  So...I know a little about the military.  To me, your attempt to lable the military a cult seems a tad over the top.

You point out that some military officers attempted to manipulate the news by supressing information about Pat Tillman's death.  If that makes the military a cult...then it also makes just about every organization there is a cult as well.  That would include political parties, campaign committees, every administration of every city, county, and state government in the nation, most businesses, advocacy organizations like the Sierra Club, most school districts, (ever seen a school district official "spin" anything?), on and on.

If everything is a cult, then the term is meaningless.

Thinking of some cult characteristics:

1. Information control-military personell watch the same media reports, read the same newspapers, books, magazines as the rest of us.

2. Infallable leaders-you have to do what they tell you, but you know they aren't infallable. 

3. Unlimited authority of leaders-There are several well known checks on authority in the Military.  The Uniform Code of Military Justice specifically states that no one has to obey any order meant to demean or degrade him.  You must obey all lawful orders, not just any order.  They can't make you murder, steal, rape, pillage, lie etc.

If a lower ranking person is being wronged in some way he can complain to the Inspector General if there is any legal wrongdoing.  If he just has a complaint about some condition of his living or work he can talk to a higher level officer than the one responsible for the situation.  Or he can talk to the Chaplain, or write his congressman.

4. Groupthink-The purpose of boot camp is to teach you a whole lot in a short time, accustom the boots to obeying orders and instill some espirit de corps into the them.  This is done through managing the people's lives very minutely, keeping them busy, making them compete as a group with other boot camp units.  It works.  This could be called cult like, but it only lasts 8-12 weeks.  After that military life is very different.

BTW, I think the guy who complained about boot camp simply did not have what it takes to succeed.  Literally millions of other guys have passed through this process successfully in the last 50 years or so.  A few thousand psychos or momma's boys have failed at it, but any average joe can succeed if he wants to.

Milieu control-In the Air Force, we had class A passes and could leave the base anytime we were not working.  We could stay away until the next time we had to report to work.  There was no pressure to agree with anyone else about politics or religion, and a variety opinions were held on these and other subjects.

Most guys who passed through the military will tell you that they are glad they did so...but they wouldn't want to do it again.  The vast majority would also tell you that if there was a real threat to their country and they were needed, they would willingly serve again.

The military...different?  For sure.  Cult?  No way.

Tom Maddux

If everything is a cult, then the term is meaningless.   I said this??????? :rofl:


   Notice I asked the question, "Is     

  After reading the different responses on the other BB I can see a variety of experiences. Yes Brother Jeff sounds like he just couldn't cut the mustard, however the fact that they lied to him is inexcusable. Although I was never in the military I think "boot-camp" is a place where they break you down psychologically. They start out by getting rid of your individuality. They shave your head. This makes you look pretty much like every other new arrival. You are no longer called by your real name. Instead they call you "private" or "maggot". Your weaknesses are constantly thrown back at you. 99% of what they are after is not your performance but your attitude. They want to know, Can this guy take an order? "Yes Sir!"  This reminds me of (some) of the brothers houses! 

No Tom I guess I don't think I can lump the whole military inside the term Cult but I do think it is an organization that does lie to and deceives and manipulates people. Last week I watched a program detailing the fact that people with college degrees were finding themselves "reassigned" before they left training. Whereas they went in thinking "I'm going to be working in communications."  They now found themselves driving in convoys!  This is total bait and switch! The soldier died on his first mission.


  Funny you should mention schools. At Beatty we say the pledge of allegiance then we say THE BEATTY PLEDGE. On my honor I will strive to demonstrate Beatty Pride.........   Makes me feel weird!

Dave,

You said:

Indirectly, yes you did.

You said:

The point of your post is that covering up a bad decision by raising questions about the motives of the critics is "a perfect example of how a cult operates."

Which, of course, it is!  But this event alone is waaaaaaaaaay below the threshold below which suspicions of a cult should arise.  All the other organizations I named, and many more, do this sort of thing, as do individuals.  If that alone is enough to label your organization a cult, then they are all cults.

In reality, this would have to be the normal way the military as a whole operates.  There would also need to be several other indicators before the cult suspicion should even be raised.

Regarding the fellow that said, "They lied to me".  Notice that he doesn't say what the lie was.  The real question is whether or not lying to their personell is a standard policy of the military.  If it is, I have never seen or heard of this.

Is there any young adult in America that does not know what they do in boot camp?  They yell at you...that is common knowledge.  For anyone who thinks, you know that they do it to weed out those who are going to break down in stressful situations.  These or not the guys you want your life to depend on.  These are also not the guys you want your nation's safety to depend on.

Remember Jessica Lange?  The girl captured by the Iraqis during the invasion and then recovered?  The press lionized her, saying that she had killed a whole bunch of the enemy.  When the true story came out the reality was that she hid on the floor of the truck and prayed while her friends took fire.

She claimed that her rifle had jammed so she couldn't do anything.  I will now disclose a great military secret.....they teach you how to clear a jam!!!   :o  IMHO, the only reason the press didn't attack her as a coward or worse was that that would raise the question of what in the world a young girl was doing in the middle of combat zone in the first place, which would bring criticism on the feminist agenda being worked out in the military these days.  Women don't belong in combat....period.

Anyhow, our boot camp dropout provides zero evidence that the military lied to him.  They sell you on enlisting by emphasizing the benefits and not mentioning the liabilities.  Any kid who ever saw a war movie or a combat video game knows to take it with a grain of salt.

Apparently our dropout was either too dumb, to sissified, or too sheltered to know this.

Tom Maaddux

Tom,

Just as an aside about the secrecy of boot-camp.

When Nathan was at boot camp in Great Lakes I came across a book called Honor, Courage, Commitment: Navy Boot Camp by J. F. Leahy.  Basically, a writer, with the Navy's permission, followed a group of trainees along through their boot camp and wrote about it - basically a day-by-day account.  As Nathan was working out a certain week, I would read the chapter and think about what he was doing.  In comparing notes with Nathan, the book was very accurate down to some of the exact exercises and drills.

He told me "We're not allowed to tell anyone what we did".  I laughed and said that it wasn't a very well-kept secret since I bought the book on Amazon.

-Dave

Lieutenant Colonel Ralph Kauzlarich, Regimental Executive Officer at Forward Operating Base Salerno on Khowst, Afghanistan under which Tillman was serving at the time of his death, has made critical statements about the Tillman family’s search for the truth based on Tillman's apparent agnosticism. In comments to ESPN, Kauzlarich said: "These people have a hard time letting it go. It may be because of their religious beliefs" and "When you die, I mean, there is supposedly a better life, right? Well, if you are an atheist and you don’t believe in anything, if you die, what is there to go to? Nothing. You are worm dirt. So for their son to die for nothing and now he is no more... I don't know how an atheist thinks, I can only imagine that would be pretty tough."[21] It has been alleged that these statements by Lt. Col. Kauzlarich, a conservative Christian, were made because the officer was trying to divert attention from the role he may have played in the alleged coverup.


This is a perfect example of how a cult operates!

  Yes I did say this!

If everything is a cult, then the term is meaningless.

No I didn't say this!

 :o

The front page of the times has an article written by a journalist who laments the fact that his nephew has joined the marines. He feels that his nephew has not made a "...well informed choice..." but has been "...manipulated..." by the President and recruitment officers. Along with this I found the nephew's own words very revealing. The nephew wrote the following to his uncle, "What I want for my life is to stand above the majority." "I believe in honor, discipline, courage....I wish to be bigger than myself, to be a part of something more-something important-something significant...." I think I wrote down these same words in my journal when I joined the Assembly.  I  am not going to take the time to match up all of the similarities between the military and the Assembly (Maybe someone else would like to?) but I can't help but think about it from time to time.


Tom here is where I started!  I started the question, "Is the military a Cult?"


     If I said, "The Military is a Cult" then I guess I would expect your responses as appropriate. Perhaps if you read the responses of others you might learn something about yourself. These responses aren't reacting to my question as if I am attacking them. They are just giving their opinions from their experiences. If you thought I said "The military is a cult" then I apologize. I was just opening up a discussion. 

Here's another I think is pretty interesting.

If I tried the officer's corps, I'm sure my experience might have been a bit different.


Oh, I don't know so much. I think (I'm only guessing here) that the US took a leaf out of the former Soviet Union's book here somewhere down the line. In the Red Army of WW2 an Infantryman was usually not even referred to as a "man" or a "soldier". Soviet Generals of Infantry would, if they were asked the strength of their Divisions, reply with the chilling phrase, "My Division has (so many) Bayonets". Veterans (some highly decorated) often remembered this with great bitterness, which is understandable. It may have been different for Guards Infantry Divisions; these were accorded a certain amount of extra privileges, but who knows?

The thinking was, of course, that where you have a large subservient population subject to conscription, it is not any great difficulty to procure more Infantry. If they cannot be had by turning out the common jail of the nearest city, they may be taken from the nearest gutter. Tanks and aircraft though, were a different story as these cost money and resources to manufacture. Thus it was cynically said in the Red Army at the time, "Tovarisch, if you lose Infantry you have lost nothing, but if you lose Tanks it means at least the Punishment Battalions .. or the salt mines!"

That's not of course the result so much of the military's being a cult as it is of its leadership thinking like Cheap Charlies. However, if this present war escalates, or, if Gawd forbid, the US resorts to conscription, who is to say it won't happen again?
Casey

Another,

Air Force here. I don't know about calling it a "cult" but there is some brainwashing that goes on to take you from civilian mindset to a military mindset. They don't drain your bank account like a cult though

On the other BB some people are taking jabs at each other!  What's the issue?  The rivalry between the branches! You know what I mean, Army vs Navy.  I was just thinking about this today. It is a tactic for a superior to "pit" subordinates against each other. This happens all the time in prisons, in factories etc... (I will support this if anyone wants) It is a great way to maintain the control for the leaders. This I would give as an example of "cult" like behaviors in the military!

This should be moved to the "Is the Military Gay?" thread!

I used to think that the Marines were pretty much a cult when I was in the AF. But there was nothing religious about it...

They had all sorts of um, shall we say traditions that they upheld in the dorms at DLI in Monterey such as the Sunday afternoon GI party (dorm cleaning) which always ended with up with one poor slob being carried by four other guys to the dumpster, throwing said poor slob into the dumpster, closing the lid and banging on said dumpster for a few minutes. I have photos of this fascinating ritual.   

They also had a funny little circle dance they'd do regularly at the NCO/EM club. Once, I even observed (through the dorm windows that they never seemed to close the curtains of   ) a sort of exercise where the Marines would hunt each other down and raid one another's rooms while in their underwear.

Plus, there was that habit they had of yelling "Semper Fi!!" at random intervals for what seemed like no good reason.