AssemblyBoard

   (Started on another thread)

    Singing in the Assembly was restricted to Hymns and Spiritual Songs! Other forms of music were discouraged!  (Yet many of the bretheren had their secret stash of Beatles CD's, Christian Rock CD's etc...)
One night (1982) Perry Minamide had a big fit over the fact that I was listening to U2.  His argument, "What if someone comes over and hears that music playing..." It would be 2001 before I attended my first U2 concert. "All You Can't Leave Behind" Elevation Tour. When the concert started the lights went off and for the next 2 hours I experienced my first pseudo Christian/ancient pagan ritual of "Dancing, jumping up and down with my eyes closed" It was awesome! This was the connection I was missing in the assembly! Along with 50,000 other people I was in a collective consciousness high! Now I can bet what you are thinking. But I will just open it up, What's wrong with it? Why are some Christians against this form of worship?     

David M.,

  Contained within your own post is the answer to your question regarding "pseudo Christian/ancient pagan ritual------" and, "Why are some Christians against this form of worship?":  No Christian would knowingly and willingly participate in "pseudo (fake) or "pagan" (non-Christian) rituals (dead works).

  Is your real question why some Christians don't want to get "high" via finding the kind of "connection" one gets at a rock concert?  I can only offer my own answer that is based on my personal experience.

 1.) Been there and done that.  I was on the West Coast for "The Summer of Love" and heard Jimmy Hendricks live, etc.  I was so stoned I didn't even know what was happening at these events. 

    2.) The results of this kind of paganism  Many of my friends who also worshipped the god of getting high are dead, in prison, etc.  A few have become Christians and now pursue values that find joy in knowing and serving God.

  I know, you did not mention drugs when talking about "getting high" and there is nothing immoral about closing ones eyes, singing and dancing, etc.  I enjoy music purely for it's emotional benefit all the time. I do believe music is a gift from God to man and that God does not disapprove of us having our souls soothed, uplifted, or even solemnized as a result of listening to it.

  However, there is a point where an emotional experience does become a high (even without drugs) and within the group context of a circumstance like a rock concert it is possible to "lose" yourself in a most harmful way.  People in such crowds can take on an animal like character where others are trampled, etc. and strangely nobody seems to care---eveyone is lost in their ecstasy and that is all that matters!

  The teachings of the bible are in contrast to paganism in that the values of morality are what we should strive for vs. seeking inner ectasy.  For this former hippie, and past ardent follower of Eastern religion, I tend to view the music of my past as something I wish to forget. 

                                                              God Bless,  Mark C.
 

My concern about the attitudes of today's worship is that the church drifts towards what Francis Schaeffer calls "content-less Religion". 

While I certainly don't condemn those who want to dance, wave and wiggle during worship, there is been such a move in the church towards the "worship experience", that many have come to believe that this is exclusively what it is all about. 

What can be lost in the dance is that the gospel has content.  It is based upon real, historical things that happened in space, time and history.  God is a person with attributes and attitudes in spite of how I may be feeling.  Yet the goal of contemporary worship seems to be the experience of how I feel.

In my little discussions with Pagans at the local University as well as a little reading, I have come to understand that the big draw to Paganism is that people can experience a deep, transcendent spiritual experience without any confining structure, morals, dogmas, or doctrines.  This isn't to say these people aren't moral.  Rather, they individually decide what moral is rather than an external Person named God who tells them how to live.  They figure out their morals based upon their upbringing, opinions, or environment - generally on a rather humanistic base or borrowing smorgasburg-style from moral precepts of other religions.  Then to find fulfillment, they hop over to the religious compartment of their lives to experience transcendence and spirituality through a ritual of their choosing.

So, yes, I've heard it a hundred times:  "David dance before the Lord with all his might."  Nevertheless, the church pendulum has been swinging so far in this direction that it is probably time to get the word out that worship also involves apprehension of some concrete things about God, what He has done in history, and how the church understands this as a body of truth.  Something a little more than merely wiggling and waggling to "Glory, glory He's my king!" if you will.

If not, we are quickly coming to the point where there really will be no discernable difference between us and the pagans.  Further, when we baby-boomers get too old and sick to dance, wave, and wiggle, we won't have anything meaningful left.


P.S.:  There will be an article posted next week on GA.com that gives a haunting account of someone who came to Christ through contentless-worship-experience-Christianity at a mega-church in Orange County.  This feeling he had when he received Christ was not enough to sustain his faith when he saw the dark under-belly of how people of religion sometimes behave.

 1.) Been there and done that.  I was on the West Coast for "The Summer of Love" and heard Jimmy Hendricks live, etc.  I was so stoned I didn't even know what was happening at these events.


   Dude if you could remember you weren't there!


I'm just having fun!

A couple years ago, Sheila and I took the kids up to Seattle to a Dare2Share Event.  The central theme of this organization is to mobilize young people to share Christ with others.  This is a noble enough cause, and I commend any organization for putting that goal right out in the forefront.  However, as the weekend progressed, after seminar lectures, activities, etc., etc., the big anticipation was for the big Sunday night concert.  A relatively big-name "christian" rock band was coming to play.  Big anticipation in the air.

Flash back two weeks:

While filling out the paperwork to register my kids for the event, I found myself being compelled to sign a release of liability.  Fair enough, I suppose... Practically everything requires a liability release these days.  But this one was a bit over the top.  In order for my kids to attend this event, I had to sign this document that held the proprietors harmless for any damage or injury that resulted from any and all actions, negligent or not, from any and all agents of the organization, or participants in the event.  I found myself thinking, "Do these 'Christians' have any sense of responsibility at all?"  I'm thinking, "Even the carnies at the fair carry insurance because they know that they are responsible in some way for the safety of the rides.  And they probably have some kind of rules about how intoxicated they are allowed to be while setting up structures and attaching cable stays..." So, what about these Christians..?

Flash forward:

The big concert begins.  It's loud.  I mean really loud.  It's disorienting.  But hey, kids like it that way, right?  What's wrong with loud?  After a while, they're really rockin'.  Now the lead singer lets everybody know it's time to really let loose and praise God.  Everybody's jumping, cheering, whatever.  There's a mosh pit forming down front.  The security guys are down there trying to keep order.  The kids start running down to the front in droves.  Security is able to keep order, but not before an injury takes place.  Now there's a kid writhing in pain in the front of the house.  The music continues.  The show must go on.  This kid basically had his leg bend 30 degrees the wrong way at the knee.  I guess someone must have landed on him wrong.  Tough break, huh?

I was assigned to security that night, so I watched it all unfold from the balcony, and heard it all on the wireless unit we each wore.  A little later I was out back as they loaded this kid up in the ambulance and took him to the hospital for repairs.  I hope his parents had insurance, because all I could think of was that this "christian" organization would be held harmless...

So all in all, what I already knew in my heart had now become first-hand experience for me.  This modern trend toward "pseudo Christian/ancient pagan ritual of 'Dancing, jumping up and down with my eyes closed'" is bad.  Period.  It has no place in God's house.  It does not honor God, exalt His Son, or please His Spirit.  Make no mistake about this stuff.  There is so much more behind it all than just its immediate appearance of simple, harmless frivolity.  It is fully representative of a general overriding attitude - a casting off of basic compassion, sense of responsibility, respect, and in the end, a total loss of dignity.  It is a degeneration of our humanity.  We become like animals.  We "cast off all restraint".  It is illustrative of a lack of vision.  Is it any wonder that Moses smashed the tablets in his indignant rage against this very portrayal of pagan partying and recklessness?

Now, if this were simply a "rock concert," I wouldn't have such a problem with it.  There are plenty of forms of recreation or entertainment (dirt bike riding, car racing, Skateboarding...) that carry with them some level of risk of injury.  That's fine.  I love a good concert.  I've played guitar on stage, and I've experienced - and enjoyed - a kind of "connection" that happens with others in certain settings.  I believe it is, on a basic level, spiritual.  But it has no eternal value if it is not directed toward and derived from the Spirit of God.  On the scale of eternity it is nothing.

So my beef here is not against a great U2 concert, or anyone's personal enjoyment of said event.  What I emphatically proclaim as wrong and bad, is for Christians to arbitrarily "sanctify" this kind of activity by calling it worship!  They think that just because they all agree it's good, therefore God must agree with them.  Then they have the gall to label it "worship".  I am indignant.  I have heard sounds coming forth from supposed "christian" bands that make me shudder.  It sounds like something coming up out of the pit!  Yet you cannot make the listeners understand that these sounds are NOT pleasing to God.  The Holy Spirit does NOT make these kinds of sounds.  These are the sounds of demons.  But no, the modern Christian has already sanctified this tripe (I'm being kind) in his own mind, with all its attendant attitudes, modes of thought, and twisted ideas of what pleases God.  These people should read the Bible.  And that's all I have to say about that.

*steps off soapbox*

Respectfully,
Eric

   Eric, thanks for responding, I'm not sure what to think about the Mosh Pit stuff.  I can't say that the Mosh Pit is something you would see at a u2 concert. So I can see your point but on the other hand I think that the extremes can go both ways. Constantly preaching to people, (youth) to suppress their desires for violence and sex isn't the answer either. (I think you have conceded this) There should be some avenue where people can get out their frustrations/tensions that can be considered socially appropriate and acceptable. Standing in a room crowded with extremely reserved people and calling out, "Can we please sing Hymn number 326!" just doesn't do it! Today is there a "growing" church that hasn't accepted "new music" as part of their format?


 

I find this question to be perhaps THE big question.  And the implications of its probable answer run deep.

But I have another question: Today is there a "growing" church in which the majority of "worshipers" have any real depth of understanding of what worship really is?  Is there a "growing" church in which most participants have engaged in a thoughtful study of worship from a purely scriptural perspective?

I have no problem with the "new music" per se, but no one can reasonably argue that the "new music" succeeds in the same kind of aspiration to holiness or proclamation of God's attributes, to which the "old music" does. The lyrics just aren't there. These songs lack the deep spiritual insight befitting of words to be sung to the infinite God of all creation. I find the modern idea of worship itself disappointingly shallow.

I have come to the conclusion that unfortunately most people come to worship seeking entertainment. As Dave Sable has so aptly put it,
Now please don't be offended here, but I perceive a very fundamental difference in the way you and I think, or in the way we view the world, or life in general, or something... I don't know.  But I must say that I don't fully understand where you're coming from.

Anyway, you say, Huh?
Does this have something to do with worship?
Yet you have juxtaposed this question with,I guess my question to you is, what exactly are your expectations for worship?  What does it mean to you?  What's it all about?  Please elaborate.

But I have another question: Today is there a "growing" church in which the majority of "worshipers" have any real depth of understanding of what worship really is?  Is there a "growing" church in which most participants have engaged in a thoughtful study of worship from a purely scriptural perspective?  Eric

Eric I'm sure you can give a good definition as to what "worship really is" again I would ask the question, "How is it meeting the need of the current generation?" I'm sure you would agree when parents tell their children something there has to be a life to back it up. If parents tell their kids "Worship should fit into these boundaries." etc... then their own lives should demonstrate the joy and vibrancy of their experience. The fact is their lives don't. Kids just see their parents sour and somber expressions at church and say to themselves, "This sucks!" O.K. maybe I'm being too hard on the traditionalist. But I ask you where is a traditional church that is growing today? Where?  The fact is all growing churches have seen the writing on the wall, if they don't replenish their congregations with young people then it will quickly deteriorate. A bunch of old people sitting around saying things like "We are faithfull to what the Lord wants and we don't worry about numbers!" or "Young people don't care about the things of God anymore!" "I guess the rapture is coming soon!"

Eric:  Very good points made clearly via a perfect example!  Please continue to contribute often here.

David M.:  Glad you had a nice hike, but if I were to do this one I would wait for a cooler time of the year  8).

  "Traditional vs. Different" music argument:  Trying to follow this discussion I believe David M. thinks that worship has to do with an individuals need to find emotional release.  D.M., it seems, may believe that "traditional" forms are too staid and boring.  Also, young people seek "vibrancy" in their worship and are abandoning their parents style.

  I am not going to try and judge someones sincerity in worship based on which style they choose, however Eric's example of this concert has to do with behavior---- not on the motives of the persons involved.  The evidence shows-- without a doubt--- that the activity Eric describes did not bring "glory to God," which worship is supposed to do.

  What part do emotions play in worship?

  If I'm caught up in ecstasy where I enjoy a sense that I am in the presence of God and then after leaving the service go home and beat my wife what is really going on?  My behavior tells me that something is wrong and it becomes the means whereby I can be instructed as to what true worship is.

  Rm. 12: 1--- describes true "worship" as the offering of our bodies (behavior) to God's service.  Here's aother verse below that might better make the distinction I'm trying to make here:

"Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery.  Instead, be filled with the Spirit.  Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs.  Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord, always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ."      Eph. 5:18-20.

    It seems to me that there's a whole lot of emotion going on in the above vs., but the positive joy of the heart is contrasted with the feeding of my emotional needs via the "drunk on wine" method.  "Spirit filling" here involves the use of music that is designated as having specific content, for it is the wonderful message of the gospel understood that has the ability to minister grace to the hearers and this brings forth a song from our hearts' unto God (Worship?  I think so).

  With the "drunk on wine" option there is an emotional experience, but instead of leading to worship it leads to an immoral lifestyle (debauchery).  Likewise, being all caught up in the wonderful feeling of ecstasy via any kind of musical inspiration by itself will only give us a temporary thrill, but alone lacks anything we can call spiritual, nor will it by itself lead to godly behavior.

  Nothing wrong with enjoying music (whether traditional or otherwise) but to call it "worship" the bible seems to make at least the distinctions I describe above.  Making "music in your heart" unto the Lord doesn't seem to mean what tune/rhythm/style I pick, but it's beauty is discovered in knowing God's love for me.  This in turn inspires a song from my heart of grateful affection to God.

                                                                          God Bless,  Mark C. 

                                                 
 

I agree that Eric was talking about behavior. Yet a mosh pit is an extreme example of worship just like worship in the Assembly was extreme. It was completely controled by the leaders. They were dictating what was appropriate/acceptable to God. (The Catholic Priesthood) Ever see someone get cut off for giving out the wrong hymn? This was done purely for the controle and manipulation of peoples lives. (o.k. this should be another thread) My point is this. The direction of worship today is moving towards our pagen roots simply because this meets a basic human need! If traditional worship did this then you would see these churches growing. O.K. I'll stop.




The world is too much with us; late and soon,
Getting and spending, we lay waste our powers;
Little we see in Nature that is ours;
We have given our hearts away, a sordid boon!
This Sea that bares her bosom to the moon,
The winds that will be howling at all hours,
And are up-gathered now like sleeping flowers,
For this, for everything, we are out of tune;
It moves us not.--Great God! I'd rather be
A Pagan suckled in a creed outworn;
So might I, standing on this pleasant lea,
Have glimpses that would make me less forlorn;
Have sight of Proteus rising from the sea;
Or hear old Triton blow his wreathed horn.

          William Wordsworth

David M:
I would like to address your response in reverse order...

You make a most excellent point here.  Our lives must reflect the joy and vibrancy that we claim Christ has given us, else we are made to be liars.  This calls for a bit of healthy introspection on the part of all of us, whether we worship in the classic "staid, traditionalist mode" or in the "new, lively mode."  But these modern lively worshipers are largely guilty of an equally destructive lie, in that their claim of purity imparted unto them by Christ's work is not seen in their daily lives.  The modern church is filled with immorality (unmarried couples living together, divorce and remarriage, etc.), uncertainty of truth (is abortion wrong, or is it acceptable? -kids don't know today. Ask them!), and of course the BIG one: materialism (the modern church is not only in the world, it is very much of the world as well).

My bottom line is that this is really what I am objecting to - worldliness in the church.  And the reason this thread got me going is that from where I sit, I see a very prevalent and insidious underlying element of worldliness contained within the "pseudo Christian/ancient pagan ritual of 'Dancing, jumping up and down with my eyes closed.'" Not only is it not inspired by the Holy Spirit, but it furthermore leads people down the wrong path, the path to destruction.

Since when does worship need to meet our needs?  Show some scripture here.  Worship is from us to God.  True, we receive a great many blessings as a result of worshiping God, but what is the motivation?  This is a key point at which the church has erred and strayed from God's plan.  Church leaders believe that worship must meet someone's need, so they set out to design their worship service.  Where in the Bible are we told to put any effort into this design activity?  No, the goal of worship must be purely to honor and please God, else it's not really worship, is it?

<edit: I slightly modified the last sentence, because upon re-reading it, I thought it had a kind of snide, patronizing tone, which I do not wish to convey.>

Eric,

You said:

I think you would be on safer ground if you said that "these sounds are not pleasing to me".  Since "man looks on the outward appearance but God tries the heart" I think it is wiser to wait until God tells us exactly what he thinks of the music before we call it demonic.

I happen to be one who strongly prefers the traditional hymns.  I can take the Baby Boomer praise choruses, but they almost never move my heart/feelings.  However, I know some very godly folks that are younger than I that sincerely prefer the contemporary stuff.  I attended some college meetings where they spent over 30 minutes just singing what they considered worship music before the Lord.

Although I prefer hymns for worship, I am pretty eclectic in my tastes in recreational music.  I like music, but am not a "fan" of anyone in particular.  Once I let it slip that I had listened to some rock music and enjoyed it.  This was during the 80's. 

This fact was duly reported to the Great Geftakys.  A few days later Steve Irons told me that "brother George wants to talk to you".  The next day I stopped at his house on my way home from work.

El Supremo curtly informed me that "missionaries have reported that natives worship demons using the same rhythms that Rock Music does. What's this I hear that you like Rock Music?"

I had heard this nonsense dozens of times.  It is true of course.  There are only a few actual rhythms, maybe 10 or 12, and all music uses them.  4/4, 2/4, 6/8 and so on. So, although true it is without significance.  Our wonderful hymns use exactly the same rhythms.

I told GG this, and then pointed out that the Bach music he claimed would be played in heaven used the same cadences that the natives used to worship demons.  El Supremo did not like that, but what could he say.   :rofl:  (I must admit I took some carnal pleasure in pointing out his ignorance and prejudice though.)

I never heard another word about it.

Anyhow, I decided a long time ago to let God decide what he likes and doesn't like.

Blessings,

Tom Maddux

Okay, Tom, point well taken.

And within the context of whence you speak, I agree completely.

However...

We all must agree that there are things that we know for sure that God takes no pleasure in.  Some of them He lists explicitly in His word, in lists. Others we know from the general discussion or commentary of the scriptures, and some we know by simple extrapolation from what the scriptures teach explicitly.  This extrapolation is part of what we are called to do as men in pursuit of the knowledge of God.  The NIV uses the word, "discernment," among others.

Now, in my previous rant, I sort of diverged into realms of my own experience that go beyond the simple enjoyment of a good rock concert - though specifically with respect to what I have seen Christians label "worship."  That's my beef.  These demonic sounds I'm talking about: Dude! This stuff was horrendous! I cannot describe it here, for the required language would be too graphic.  Yet it was being played in a church during a church function by musicians who simultaneously encouraged the audience to "worship."  The audience consisted of kids, ages 12 to 17, a couple of teen ministry leaders who like the modern sounds and lack discernment, and the band was made up of kids.  No other adults (eg, parents) were in attendance.

I believe the stuff I'm describing would be labeled "christian punk", and I sincerely doubt that this type of sound would be presented during a Sunday morning worship service in any of the mainstream "growing" churches that we're talking about - at least I sincerely hope not!  My purpose in bringing it up is to point out that as Christians, we cannot just say, "Well, the music you enjoy is just a matter of personal taste, that's all." To this, I say NO. YOU'RE WRONG. There is stuff out there called music that God hates!

As Christians, are we at liberty to say, "The types of movies you enjoy are just a matter of personal preference."?  See, we all know that there are, in fact, some hard boundaries there. Proof? The word "pornography" is already in your mind. You thought of it immediately, because you know that God hates it.  But can you show the verse that says God hates pornography?  God created the female form, and every male knows how exquisitely beautiful it is.  Is there something inherently wrong with admiring it?  Our old born-again friend, Larry Flint used this argument to justify his porn publications as moral.  We know he was wrong, but we also know that there is nothing inherently wrong with admiring the female form.

So why do we know that God hates pornography?  Some answers:

• It is a perversion of God's intended context for sexual enjoyment.
• When we look at all the things that go with it, we find nothing of redeeming value.
• It has a destructive effect on those who enjoy it.

Now the first item, we can only know with some knowledge a priori of the scriptures, the second and third, we know from direct observation. So let us look into our modern musical popular culture...
I'm talking about the punk/grunge, emo, goth stuff - it's pretty prevalent in the high schools today.  What's the stuff that goes with it?  Skulls, devils, pentagrams; tattoos of skulls, devils, pentagrams; drugs; smoking; parties, drinking, raves; clothing designed specifically to look poor, ugly, outcast; hairstyles designed specifically to look ugly. This is the stuff that goes with the music.  Stylish, yes.  Good? you decide.

Does it enhance the life of the listener?  Does it soothe one's soul, help one to find inner peace?  I think not. Really.  People may say that punk music relaxes them. But it's not generally relaxing.  Some people play Doom or Halo to relax.  that doesn't make it relaxing.  The end result is that these people don't relax.  Contrast the stories about the individual who listens to an acid/metal album, then commits a violent crime, with the fact that we've never heard about the guy who did the same thing, only it was after listening to bluegrass or Barry Manilow.

Now I know that anyone may object, saying that plenty of jazz lovers are violent. Plenty of people never relax, regardless of their musical tastes.  True, but this is just a dodge.  It's a dodge around my assertion that all this stuff taken together - it all goes together - is bad.  It's not good, because it doesn't lead to anything good.  It's logical conclusion will will lead you into the company of Kurt Cobain or Syd Barrett.  Have you listened to the lyrics?  By the way, plenty of men give in to lust, commit adultery, and ruin their marriage without watching porn.  Does this mean pornography isn't bad?

My conclusion about the most extreme, demonic sounding punk music:

• It has a destructive effect on those who enjoy it.
• When we look at all the things that go with it, we find nothing of redeeming value.
• It is a perversion of God's intended context for musical enjoyment.

IF these are true, then I don't even have to hear it in order to conclude that God hates it.  Should we now use it in worship?

Eric,

A well argued response!

I am not close enough to the music scene to distinguish between styles that have developed since the 70's or early 80's.  Sounds like you have teen age kids yourself.

The 50's rock and roll music of my youth, viewed from afar now, was just plain silly.  Sloppy sentiments, thinly veiled sexual innuendos, teenage angst, lots of plain old racket. We thought it was "way cool". I doubt if I ever learned anything useful from it.

Yet, "when I became a man I put away childish things".  It doesn't seem to have produced lasting harm.  I just hope today's racket gets put away as well.

I enjoy reading your posts.

Tom Maddux

I have to confess I am just having a lot of fun here!  Truthfully if I had kids the last thing I would want them to do is have an opportunity to throw off all constraints!  Believe me as a schoolteacher the most difficult part of my job has do do with control! Most Hispanic kids (boys) have no control/discipline! Yes this is politically incorrect!  So I don't give them any unnecessary opportunities like listening to rock and roll etc...! I was just having fun with you!

Well, David, you have played the part with true excellence!  And thank you for giving me the opportunity to more fully compose my arguments.  This is far from the first time I've had this conversation, And I'm sure it won't be the last.  It seems that moral ground is a lot like inflation of the dollar: it's easy to let it go, but next to impossible to gain back.

What I am constantly bucking against in our post-modern, multi-cultural, enlightened society is this almost knee-jerk reaction of acceptance of anything that comes along.  My kids have this pre-programmed verbal response that kicks into gear whenever they sense any vestige of an objection from me.  "Dad, it's not that bad."

They've learned, though, what they'll hear me say next.  "Yes, but... Is it good?"

Kids do not learn to think this way at school (no offense intended, David), or by watching TV.  So I've pretty much taken on the task of teaching it myself.  Maybe that shows, I don't know...