AssemblyBoard

I have a positive experience to share.

Some of you know the issues Toni and I have gone through in the past few years -- if you aren't familiar, suffice it to say we've had some extremely rough times but are doing FANTASTIC these days.

I went through a time of gross sin, to where I was excommunicated and for good reason.  Through this time the saints were very supportive of Toni and there for me.  It was a dark situation that I would have expected total rejection, but was very touched by the compassion of the saints through this.

I returned, repentant before the brethren and the saints.  For some time we remained in fellowship, tyring to get our family back on the right track.

Over the course of 6 months there was no growth in our lives.  Having literally left fellowship, it was difficult for me to come back because there was absolutely no desire for that work.

Toni and I very carefully and over a course of time switched places of fellowship.

Upon exiting, I wrote an open letter to the brethren stating there are no particular issues, that I'm not "leaving fellowship" and promising to do everything on my part possible to keep the doors of fellowship open.

Which we both have.  Toni and I have been very careful in what we have said.  All we say publically is that it wasn't a healthy place for our family at that time.

Since leaving we have maintained a few friendships.  For the most part, saints haven't called or contacted us but some we've kept in touch with.  

But we are now GROWING and actively involved in a place of worship.  The kids enjoy it (we were literally dragging them to meetings before).  
I have found if nothing else a desire I've never had to be involved in God's things.
We give more than we ever have -- WILLINGLY -- because we are drawn into the work by seeing what is done and where the money goes.

Missionaries are sent out, families are involved, it IS a healthy atmosphere, in spite of those that may fear otherwise for our spiritual health.

I recently ran across a brother who told me how glad he was to see me because he had "such a misconception about why we left".  That surprised me.

I have no clue what was said about our departure.  I have no clue if my letter was read, or if it was stated in someone else's words.

But ... I've done all I can do.  Toni and I have maintained a good witness and not spoken evil of the brethren or the work (we really had no reason to).

For any saints in St Louis reading this that haven't spoken with us, rest assured we are doing well.  And feel free to call or write  us anytime.

Hey Ken,

Its Galati- Great to hear from you via this website. What a vehicle God has given us to re-unite before we all do in Heaven.  I honestly did not know of any of these things. I guess for good reason.  I was not around.  I left as you know in 1994.  I am glad you have not let a root of bitterness grow within you.  I admit it has been tempting for me.  I felt all along I was walking with the Lord, but could never understand the brothers harsh response.  Now I see what was in place.  Very glad to be past all that.  Sounds like a healthy place you are in now.  Where is it?  I am living in St Charles and attending Harvester Christian Church.  I am married with a family also.  Greet Toni for me- so good to hear from you- God Bless- VPG

Are only Assembly Rejects allowed to post here??  Then this must be where I belong...  

I hope to drive to St. Charles this Saturday to spend a few days and would love to see both of you clowns!  I'll have my cell phone with me:  817-808-7750.  

During my visit, I will attend meetings at The Church Formerly Known as The Assembly.  There has been so much hurt and so much loneliness in so many lives over the years.  I sincerely hope that there is genuine honesty at a time like this.  In 1997, the Lord took me to Ezekiel 34; it had "assembly" written all over it.  I spoke with Danny Edwards; he had prepared a message for that very day on the same chapter.  I know Becky James was also stuck on that chapter at the same time.  If the corporate expression in that place is to die, we have a faithful Shepherd who promises to care for His sheep.  I'm praying for the leadership and for the flock.  Even though I'm not seeing postings from St. Louis saints, I know that they are secretly all over this website and that there is great healing taking place.  I look forward to hearing of God's mercy during next week's visit!  

"Then I will make up to you for the years that the swarming locust has eaten, the creeping locust, the stripping locust and the gnawing locust, My great army which I sent among you."  Joel 2:25  

St. Louis!  You have permission to use this forum to speak of the Lord's goodness and faithfulness!  Don't be afraid of Ken and Vince!  Jesus associates with these wretches!  

Roger  :o

Roger,

okay forgive me I hit the wrong button.
Yes Roger the Lord is doing a new thing.  I am very excited about the new possibilities for growth here in St. Louie.  I hope you will be able to join us for worship on Sunday morning and see and hear for yourself the great things God is doing.  There is a lot that has happened these past few weeks.  Well I got to fly but Lord bless you and hope to see you soon.

St. Louisans,

Forgive me for posting although I was not involved in your group.  I am looking for information on an old friend of mine who I lost touch with once he joined The Assembly.  During the time he joined I was very very concerned about what I learned about the organization, and expressed my doubts, to no avail.

Have you all heard from him?  It's Mike Pasatieri.  Is he okay?  

If you have any information - just if he's okay or whatever - would you let me know?  I'd appreciate it.  I pray for him a lot.

My e-mail address is realityfuel@hotmail.com.  

Thanks,
Michelle

Ahh! Yes, Mike is going awesomely, and is in fact a dear friend of mine.  His roommate posed earlier on this site, Daniel Teater.  I am sorry that i do not have his contact information, but i can say that he is going well.  Next time i see him, i will meantion that you seek to contact him.

Hey, Freak,

Teater as in Ken?

JesusFreak, my heart just burst and I started to cry.  Thank you.  

Is he still involved with The Assembly?  

I'll admit I didn't realize the full extent of what went on within the confines of this organization until reading several of the threads on this site just now.  You see, Mike led me to the Lord and let God use him to save my life.  Then Mike introduced me to my wonderful church where GRACE is preached - consistently.  My heart breaks for anyone involved in the legalism found in these pages.  I am so, so incredibly sorry stories like this even exist.

Thank you for your reply.  Mike was such a sweet person.  I'm so glad he's doing well.  Praise God!!

-michelle

Freak, eh? Love the maturity.

And yes, it was a misspelling.

While i wince when i assume by your comments that your only interaction with the assembly is through the loaded nature of this website, i am glad that i could help.  When i chatted with him last (about a week ago) he was still praying about what to do, and to the best of my knowledge, the Lord has led him to stay.  

Wince away.  

When he first started telling me about this group, every comment he made gave me 10 more questions and a million warning bells.  Each thing he told me SCREAMED of legalism and it was horrible to hear.  Let's just say that what I've read within these pages is even worse than I thought - and what I suspected *wasn't* good.  

Legalism smacks in the face of Jesus' sacrifice.  I can't condone it.  Peace is not found in licentiousness nor legalism.   It is found in grace.

Grace and peace to you, brother mine.  I've prayed for the Lord's intervention in this for a long time.  

Your Sister,
michelle

Wow
There is so much going on right now.  A lot of hurt, a lot of old scars, but a lot of rejoicing, too.  God is doing an awesome work here in St. Louis.  He is getting rejuvination, healing, and breakthrough in the lives of everyone.  There have been a few tears, but many smiles.  Michelle, Mike is a great guy and he is doing great.  God is using him mightily.  Everyone else, you have all been a big part in my life and I thank you for all your help.  We all have our problems with one another, but we need to daily see through the eyes of God, and love as such.  The light is brightening and a new day is dawning.  We can't get stuck in tradition and religion but we must realize that it is important to have a daily walk with Jesus Christ, and there is when the rivers of life begin to flow.  Lord Bless,

Luke

Luke Robinson

Scott, are you wondering if Daniel Teater is offspring of Ken Teater?  Yes, he is.  And a fine young man he is, I should say.  

Hey Roger, good to see your post & hear about your trip to St. louis this weekend.  My wife & I still have that lunch waiting for you---How about Sunday.   We usually don't know when your coming until your here and by that time your schedule is booked :'(.  Email me or call us @ (314)504-5060.

And to you. Inquire of the Lord and He will guide, ask and he will give you strength :)

I know I don't usually announce my visits in advance, but those saints perusing this website are the first to know that I'm coming to town for a week.  At this point, my schedule is mostly open.  I plan to be on the road tomorrow so either e-mail me TODAY or call the cell phone number posted earlier to schedule something!  I will gladly work in as many visits as I possibly can!  

Joe, I look forward to seeing you and April again!  

Michelle --

I know Mike is a great influence for my sons (they are 11 and 13).  
We left the assembly (on good terms) well over a year ago.   They still call him up and want to spend time with him.
He takes em out and does things with them and is a VERY positive influence.

Roger -- I'll call you sometime tomorrow.  I was trying to remember -- did you Vince and I ever live together at the same time?

Man .... that goes back years (remember the king size bed you moved into Rudy's small bedroom -- we literally had to climb over furniture to get to the small open square in the room)  Felix and Oscar -- that's how I always thought of you and I living together.

Oscar, I don't think I brought a bed with me to that garage room; it came with the place.  And it wasn't king-sized; it was court-jester-sized.  After the initial trauma wore off, I loved having you as a roommate.  Remember how our "quiet times" never coincided and neither of us ever had any silence, so we just called them "mellow times"?  

Vince lived with the Robinsons.  And I happen to know that both of you will soon complete your 40th lap around the sun...  

Michelle --

I saw that you were contacting Mike P.  Well yes he is my roomie and I am acutally using his computer to type this post.  If you are worried about Mike let me put some of your doubts to rest.  Mike is a man with a healthy set of personal convictions.  I can assure you that both of us have taken a long hard look at what has taken place as a result of the Geftakys ministry.  However, let me encourge you to write Mike yourself and find out how he is doing.  (He just got engaged and I am one hundred percent sure that he would be rejoicing if he could tell you about it.)  I know Mike (and everyone in St. Louis) is (are) looking ahead to what God has for us.  Nothing is out of the question and we all our humbly seeking His Will. Remember all of us in your prayers. I will tell Mike that there is someone who wants to talk with Him and if you want when I nail down his e-mail I can send it to you.  I think its teiri_76@yahoo.com, but don't quote me.

Oh by the way I am Ken Teater's son.

Oh yeah Felix, I had forgotten about our "mellow times".
I guess we were a rebellious pair from the beginning, weren't we?

As for the 40th lap -- well, just don't forget my 10-year-older twin brother Gus.  He always helps overshadow my milestone birthdays.

Daniel - Thanks for the info!  That's great that he's engaged - I'm not heartbroken in the least!  (::sniffle::)

But seriously, let him know that I'm a broker with EJones up on Dunn Road at New Florissant.  Sounds like he's living near there (Florissant phone and all).  He's welcome to stop by anytime.

God bless you all!
-michelle

p.s. If anyone is looking for a church, check out Covenant Pres on Ballas Rd.  Talk about a grace-filled church!   :)

Michelle,

You are correct and I applaud your boldness. Unfortunately, the legalism you suspect in the St. Louis group can be confirmed by myself, a regular for 11 years.  I was there when Luke and Daniel were newborns. I stayed till 1994. I want the best for their walks with the Lord;  that is why I am hesitant in confirming your thoughts. I fear that the pat answer will now be we are not associating with the "Geftakys Ministry" any longer. What??? You are the Geftakys ministry. I guess George could say the same comment and all is better. All of the control, abuse and mishandling to  so many lives and wounded souls can now be open summarily discounted and vanish. The issue is " Who controls Me?"  Man or God. LB's or the Holy Spirit. If that lesson is not supremely burned on the hearts and minds of all in St. Louis, God help them. Say goodbye to George- even though for years, he was the ultimate authority- Go find out what Bro. George thinks and we will wait to hear from on high.  Now he is discounted after years of covering up sin and we cast him away as a fallen man within weeks.  Can they honestly and with a pure heart do that? Who will they now turn to for authority? This is the problem my friends; you do not need Bro. Geroge's. You never did. You do not need LB's. You have what you need. You lack nothing.
That was what God so gloriously showed me back in 1994, thanks to the ministry of Bob George. I read his book entitled Classic Christianity. It is autobiographical. He came to a crisis point in his life. He was burned out. This Christian life was not working. He started over and let the Lord show him the problem. " You shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free". Not you shall know the word, but the truth. The assembly knows alot about the word, but little about the truth.  Bob George's ministry taught me I was (past tense) completely forgiven. Not I will be if I ask. But I was totally forgiven of all my sins when I received Christ. There is no more any offering for sin. What a thought. Consider that. You can not be more forgiven than you are right now. You never will be. It is not conditional. If you can get that one revelation, you can unlock the Grace of God and begin to truly understand the New Covenant for the first time in your life. The assembly is ignorant of these things. The book of Hebrews spells out the New Covenant, but I was blind to it for so many years. You can be set free.
That is exactly what happened to me in 1994. I was overjoyed, but naive. I went to the LB's in St. Louis with this gospel. I tried to share this cool water with the beleagured saints. But to no avail. I was met with only resistance, which got progressively worse.  I was publicly humiliated by brother George on a video seminar one Sunday afternoon. I was shocked he was talking about me.  I was not allowed to share this with the saints in ministry. Then it went further. I was told not to share these things "in private conversations" with the saints. Like what we are doing right now.  This would not be allowed. THIS conversation would be stifled and controlled. Shame on them!   I tell you this was the final straw. It was then that the Holy Spirit said to me it is time to go. I thought of the verse: "Is it better to obey men or God"  I could not hold back such a liberating message of freedom. Gal 5:1 Stand therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ has set us free.    Rom: There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus".  Eph 1:7: "In HIM, we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins"  My friend, answer me this- are you In Him? YES, you are. What do you then possess- the forgiveness of sins. This is not some future tense verse. This is not "if" we ask. Do you ask to be redeemed each day? Why not?  Because He saved you once for all. Even the assembly acknowledges this truth. The same is true of our forgiveness. We stand in forgiveness. We are his sons and daughter. To hell with this nonsense of "inheriting the kingdom" being some conditional blessing. This is the rotten core of the "Geftakys Ministry" lie. If that not be banished, put up another straw man in George's place, and the assembly will continue to rot in its legalism.
Believe it or not, I say all these things in love. I was there 11 years, not as an outsider. Please consider these things. For my stand on these things, I was put out essentially.  But I was put out into the palms of the Good Shepherd. Thank God- He will never leave you or forsake you.  I felt alone and tossed out by man, but undergirded by my Savior. This is what I hope the men of the assembly can really put there eyes, hearts and arms around.  This is no way to treat a saint of God.  Not to get any sympathy. Because I knew all along why they were doing this. They were and many still are blind. They had no clue. This was all done "in defense of the faith". They were protecting the saints from false doctrine like the New Covenant of Grace, so that they could drink in the poison of legalism. A little leaven leavens the whole lump. After you unlock the grace of God in your life, this charade this ministry has built up comes crashing down. You see you are free. You are loved. You are accepted. It doesn't get any better than this. You don't get better in God's eyes.  That was Satans great problem with me staying. Satan knew it, but I don't think the LB's knew it. They just knew I couldn't be allowed to share those things. What would happen to the saints? What would control their behavior. If we are totally forgiven, then can we do as we please?  Is not that the same question the apostly Paul was always confronted with: "Shall we sin that grace may abound?"  Why were they asking him this. Because he was teaching the unconditonal love of God seen through the New Covenant. Jesus said at the Cross: "It is finished"  My freinds, He completed the work. I rest in His finished work. Thank God- I belong to HIM.  God Bless all and I invite your responses, questions and challenges. VPG

Michelle, brevity never was one of Vince's strengths...  
He just got all full o' the Holy Ghost there for a minute and got to preachin'.  

Yes, he was sent away and we were told not to talk to him because he had taken hold of a teaching that said once you get your fire insurance you can do whatever you want.  

Evidently, he's doing okay.  

Ok, I just need clarification.  ???  Are you (Vince) saying that if we sin, we don't need to repent?  Do you believe there will be consequenses to our sins?  The bible says that if I do something to my brother is the same as doing it to God.  Now if I was to hit my brother, I believe the bible calls me to ask forgivness from my brother, AND since it is against God too, I must ask His forgivness.  I was just a little confused and would just like you to clear this up for me, please.

I would also like to whole heartedly agree with what Luke wrote below:
God IS working in St. Louis,  and may He continue to do this work. ;D
 -Mark Teater
(Also a son of Ken Teater)

Vince, show mercy.  Be brief.  

Mark, I think this issue is going to be re-examined pretty thoroughly in the coming months.  Yes, if you sin against your brother, you absolutely need to seek his forgiveness.  The bigger doctrine is what effect it will have on your eternal destiny if you don't reconcile with him.  

By the way, be sure to check the kid's page.  There's a reunion in the making.  

Errr.....    Hmmmm.

Sinning requires repentance, but then you must accept God's forgiveness.  No repentance because of "fire insurance" is licentiousness.  No acceptance because you're "not a good person" and would prefer to beat yourself to death with a Bible is legalism.

Okay, in a really, really small nutshell, that is.

Although he may argue with me, I had a really good teacher when I first came to faith.  (We all make mistakes, but ... ooh, grace!)  I was also blessed with a wonderful church, good friends and leadership I could count on.  They accepted questions and challenges gracefully, and worked hard to see the flock grow in the Lord.  

Brief example: One night I had an appt with my asst pastor.  I was mad - furious - at him, and very hurt by a gross injustice that had occurred within both my church and a sister church.  I confronted him about it, honestly and straight out, without pulling any punches.  Much painful, heartfelt discussion ensued, and he apologized for his part in the wrongs and asked for my forgiveness.  

Grace is so foreign, it never fails to amaze me.  However, because I have been the recipient of such grace, anything that flies in the face of that grace revolts me, nearly automatically.  By reflex.

Thanks, Vince, for the confirmation that my original assumptions were correct.  But it was so easy to spot from the first time I heard about it, even though I was a "baby Christian" at the time, that really I already knew.  I knew from the outset that something was just not right.  What I read in the Bible didn't mesh with what I was hearing about the group.  It made no sense.  And trying to refute it was futile, which in turn was heartbreaking.  What I've heard of this system is not grace, and someone would have to work extra-super-hard to convince me otherwise.  Like I said before, the Lord's intervention in this is answered prayer.

Ooooh...  Okay, I'm on completely foreign turf here.  The outsider who jumped into the middle of something she isn't involved with.  I'm not even logged in, nor will I be!  Yikes.  Typical big-mouthed me!

Thanks for the info on Mike.  I wish him, and all of you, well.  If anyone wants to talk, or wants an objective(-ish) ear, feel free to contact me at realityfuel@hotmail.com.  I don't break confidentiality.  

In Him,
-m.

<><  
proving that God can use the strangest people since May 17, 1998

Vince,

Let's save the doctrinal arguments for another place and another time.  There are forums on this board for that.   And there are certainly better times for that.

All I know now is -- whether he is saved or not -- george has some SERIOUS repenting to do

But I'll also add that I am a recipient of grace that God forbid most people should have to experience.  And much of that grace is seen in the saints here in St Louis.

Yes, we were SOG (servants of george) in many many ways.  But there is a love and true concern amongst some of the brethren here that I'm beginning to see wasn't known in many of the assemblies.

I honestly have no grudges or bitterness in any way against any of the saints here.  Yes, I could "judge" different people, but I refuse to.  God can do that.

I know the ones who poured there hearts and souls out to Toni and myself.  I saw the tears, and painful horror in people's faces as they watched me absolutely turn my back and run out on God.

I know the ones that truly were concerned.  Sure, everyone had their "advice" and "opinions" for both Toni and myself.  But it was the sincerity amongst those that were truly heartbroken and concerned that in many ways preserved my soul from total shipwreck.  

I guess having been forgiven much, I'm learning to forgive (learning)

Ken, I am so glad that you had a good experience there in St. Louis when you needed it the most.   I know though it was not all hugs and kisses there for you either.  But as you said you can choose to judge or to forgive.  That is indeed yourchoice.  There have been a lot of wounded people from these lodges.  A lot of hurts.  A lot of haunts.  A lot of damage.  Yes good times too don't get me wrong.  I experienced a lot of those with you as a matter of fact.  But you cannot erase them even if you forgive them.  People have to work through them.  Everyone does it differently.  Some do it quicker than others, some do it slower.  Sounds like you have quickly healed.  But there are big problems with legalism, etc... in these lodges.  This is not peoples imagination.  These bad and aweful things have gone on.  For some they have gone on at their local lodges.  All the bad is not just in Fullerton.  This I know you know too.  We can't walk in each others shoes.  I can't walk in yours and you can't walk in mine, etc.....   These issues need to be aired.  People need to know that there is life outside of that lodge life.  It is the Christ life.  That is the only life that is worth living.

Vince,

You wrote:
"this nonsense of "inheriting the kingdom" being some conditional blessing. This is the rotten core of the "Geftakys Ministry" lie. If that not be banished, put up another straw man in George's place, and the assembly will continue to rot in its legalism."


This is the workshop of spiritual abuse!  Once a simple believer took hold of that, they were sucked onto a godless treadmill with no slowing down.  Yes there are rewards for faithfulness, but scaring folks with the loss of inheritance is another story (bad story).  I Cor 3 speaks of the believers "works" being judged.  Are we saved by works?  No!  Our works will be judged as to whether they are "in Christ" or of the "flesh".  Fleshly works will burn and the works done "in Christ" will remain, acompanied with reward.  But our inheritance is secured!  We have the downpayment of the Holy Spirit!  And Abraham received the inheritance by promise (so will we!)!  Folks don't want to discuss doctrine but it is as important as repentance.  How else will anyone know what to repent of??  It is easy to say "I repent."   Not as easy to say "I repent for hurting you".  I guess it is even harder to say "I repent for using the Scripture to get you to do the will of men."  That is a hard pill to swallow, but that is reality!

Vince, you are correct!
Garth

Michelle,

I would like to private message you, but since you signed on only as a guest, this is impossible.  I have been out of the assembly for 3+ months.

I would like to help you.

Private message me.

Kimberley

Garth, I say yes to what you say about the workshop, but with some allowance for individual exceptions.  I did go for the conditional inheritance teaching, but I wasn't sucked onto the treadmill with no slowing down.  It was more like around 1986 I started to see some things that kept me from getting on it.  (Specifically, I saw the lust for control and I got a brief but painfully clear look at George's arrogance.)  Of course, this means that I wasn't really "on board", "fully committed to what the Lord wants to do in this place", a straggler.  Others would sometimes ask me, "Why aren't you running?"  My response would be, "Where are you going?"  (I was just enjoying the breeze.)  
I am grateful for my time in the assembly.  I'm a little different from most posters in that I left the assembly without ever really leaving; I just moved to Dallas for other pursuits.  (That was an interesting story in itself.)  But my self-imposed distance even while in the system kept me from much of the abuse of power under which others have suffered.  Most of my grieving in all of this is on behalf of others who were crushed.  And I've cried for some.  
I can't express how deeply I long for HONESTY and genuine repentance on behalf of the offenders, but I think Danny Edwards' experience yesterday makes it clear that this is not a safe forum for LBs to apologize.  If the LBs know that tar and feathers await them here, they won't come.  I would entreat ALL involved here to show mercy and patience.  Many of the offenders are just beginning to realize their crimes against God's people.  Yes, many throughout the various assemblies, especially in CA, are worthy of a beating.  Let's be outraged, but let's keep our outrage in check lest we be found like the servant in Matthew 18.  Yes, we are owed a debt, but what debt did we owe our Father?  We need to be inviting them to confess and assuring them that we won't bite them when they do.  

Roger,

I agree somewhat.  

I do regret, however that this entire BB has become just like the lodges.  No liberty to speak the truth or your mind.  

Why must my every statement be challenged?

I will very soon quit posting as this whole thing is becoming a farce.

Garth

I know I also felt that the attacks would make it harder for other brethren to come forward. Like why are they attacking the one that is repenting rather than those that are silent?

One problem with posting as "guest" is that no one can "go and tell him his fault between you and him alone".

If LB's desires to use this forum to help "realize their crimes against God's people", they should register with or without hiding their e-mail address.  They can then get "private posts" automatically forwarded to the e-mail address that they entered.

To have your IM (people posting privately to you on ga.com) automatically forwarded to your e-mail, so you will know if someone is trying to contact you without having to check the bb:
 
Simply log into the bb, click the "you have xxx messages" at the top of the page. This brings up your "In Box"
 
Next click "preferences" at the top of the in box.  This brings up the Ignore List
 
Change Notify by email to "yes" and click "Save Preferences"
 
All private posts will be automatically e-mailed to the address you provided


2 Corinthians 8:21  providing honorable things, not only in the sight of the Lord, but also in the sight of men.

St. Louis....Gateway to the West (Fullerton?)

The stated goal of this website is to expose darkness.  It was intended as an outreach to those in bondage (shepherd or sheep).  This includes a goal of putting an end to the Geftakian regime's pattern of abusing the weak and the vulnerable.  

Rather than ending the pattern of abuse, shall we, the peasantry, instead seize the opportunity to spit upon the gentry as they're paraded past us?  Do we demand instant and full proof of complete restitution for 30 years of bad doctrine and abuse of power?  Might we attempt some pretense of compassion for the fallen taskmaster who comes crawling into the website acknowledging his sin?  

Danny made a respectable attempt at apologizing; the response was gladiatorial.  Of course, he still has a lot to learn, and his wording was evidence that old habits die hard.  HE'S MAKING A START.  This whole empire has been cancerous for a long time.  Some found out long ago.  Some have just days ago received the terminal diagnosis.  Some are still in denial.  None are more eaten up by this cancer than those in leadership.  But besides the bolus of truth that was shot down their throats last Sunday, they're going to need on-going treatment.  Now, I'm all for juicing, but let's not be so eager to administer the full Gerson on 'em.  

It seems some of us want no part in reconciliation.  We just want to get a few good licks in.  Isn't this the lodge pattern we're trying to kill?  

"Why must my every statement be challenged?"  If that doesn't smack of the old leadership mentality, what does?  Now that we're liberated from oppression, we still can't question?  This is Orwellian.  Have the pigs delivered us from the evil farmer?  Can we expect to see the pigs playing cards with the farmer soon?  God deliver us from our thirst for vengeance.  

I recommend the establishment of two new websites:  1) tohellwiththeassembly.com, which would serve as an arena for the free flow of venom against all who ever promoted the assembly lifestyle, including former doork-keepers; no restraint, no mercy; and 2) brokenleadership.com, in which former doork-keepers and other repentant oppressors can post statements of failure and repentance; no commentaries, just letters from leadership.  

This website has a sector that is longing for the return to pre-January 18th days.  God forbid.  

Roger writes:
"Why must my every statement be challenged?"  If that doesn't smack of the old leadership mentality, what does?  Now that we're liberated from oppression, we still can't question?  This is Orwellian.  Have the pigs delivered us from the evil farmer?  Can we expect to see the pigs playing cards with the farmer soon?  God deliver us from our thirst for vengeance.  


Does the truth offend you?  If I speak the truth in love in order to free people from the pig farmer, why would you question me.  Are you one of the pig farmers?

Again Roger writes:
1) tohellwiththeassembly.com, which would serve as an arena for the free flow of venom against all who ever promoted the assembly lifestyle, including former doork-keepers; no restraint, no mercy;

I detect a bit of anger and vitriole (don't be a copy-cat)

Jeremiah 21:12  O house of David, thus saith the LORD; Execute judgment in the morning, and deliver him that is spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor, lest my fury go out like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

Garth, Thanks for the liberty to repy and to speak my mind.

Ken- Forgive me, its only been 9 years of stifling and being told not to have conversations with the saints. Maybe some of that is coming out. I felt like I died and no longer existed in the saints minds for years after I left.

Roger- I hope you didn't mean that I believe I have my fire insurance and that is all that matters. Certainly not, the issue now is to live responsibly as a believer because I want to, not out of fear of condemnation. I believe that is what you were saying, but thought I could speak best on what I believe. I have been misquoted by many for a while. So if any saints do have need of clarification, I sure would appreciate them coming forward in this forum for that. I will gladly respond. Thanks (it just may take a couple of days)

Mark and Michelle- To that end, I do owe you guys clarification.  Mark,  thank you for your questions. I respect the way you came to me for clarification.  I can't help but remembering you growing up in the assembly. You were always so full of energy and spunk. You must be involved in sports today. No wait- Ken is your dad. Nevermind. Just joking, say hi to him for me. I will get to your questions.

Michelle- Your quoted response was "accept God's forgiveness".  I agree wholeheartedly. This is different than asking for God's forgiveness. You may think I am nit-picking, but I am not. To ask means it is not yet done or granted. To accept means you receive what is rightfully yours. I do want to say emphatically I do not believe in some kind of licentiousness or cheap grace-whatever that is.  The price was horrific that Christ paid. But the point is, To Him be all the glory. I can add nothing to His finished work of forgiveness but to accept it. I do not get forgiven because I  ask. I am already forgiven for all my sins-past , present and future. I walk in forgiveness. I will elaborate more, but do not want to lay out a 2 page post (just for you Roger).  I must go for now. Mark, I have not forgotten your questions, but I have to go to my brother Chris' for the Superbowl.  
God bless you guys- sorry for the lengthy post. VPG

I suppose I should have been clearer.  What I see a lot of times is the "cheap grace" you mention - which is "technically" thinking that because you are forgiven you do not need to repent.  However, on the other side of the coin, many believers are on the treadmill of a performance-based life.  My hope is that both of these types of believers will pray to be shown what true grace really is.

Those who suffer from a performance-based lifestyle generally won't accept the forgiveness and grace already handed to them.  That's what I meant by accepting the forgiveness.

Those living in the midst of cheap grace need to learn to bend the knee and repent.  They must remember that they will still be held accountable for the actions that follow their justification.  This isn't a "get out of jail free card" that allows them to hurt and harm at will.

::nods to all::  Just joined the boards to be "official."  I felt creepy leaving messages as a "guest."

Amen and amen to what both of you are saying.  Vince, your reason for leaving the assembly was basically condensed into those words for me when you departed.  I will not "ask your forgiveness" but rather "accept your forgiveness" for not staying in touch.  (Oh, wait.  Am I misapplying grace here?  I'm so confused!)  It was always fun to run into you occasionally...  like Westport Playhouse.  (Was that Margaret Becker?)  

I drove to St. Charles Saturday.  I'm here for a week, which isn't a lot of time to assess the status here.  Here's to openness, honesty, humility, and wisdom for all God's people!  

michele,

thanx for logging in. i remember reading the post
where you said that you wouldn't. Good for you  :D

Mark- thanks for your questions from the other day. I apologize about the jock joke, no harm intended. It was a joke. The truth is, your dad always could run circles around me on the basketball court- now I'm sure more than ever.

Anyway, as to some of your questions, I did post the topic in a general way under "Bible"- then go topic- "did Jesus die for our sins". I couldnt figure out how to bring it over here.  
What I am saying is first of all we do sin and offend our brother in many ways. Yes, we do need to go to him and ask forgiveness for offending him. That is walking in love as a responsible believer. The issue is between the brother and me. Not between God and me. We have been reconciled to God through the cross. That is what the finished work of Christ was for. I can not add to that work by my asking for forgiveness, by my contrition, by my sorrow. No, that is all hogwash. What can wash away my sins- nothing but the blood. And it is not the blood + my "repentance". That is adding to His work no matter how you slice it.
I would challenge you to find one verse or reference where the apostle Paul tell the Christian to ask God for forgiveness after being saved. You won't. You will read many verses that say we are "to forgive each other even as Christ Jesus our Lord has forgiven us".  This is stated numerous times. Reference Eph4:31,32 and Col 3:13, and Eph 1:7. Each time the apostle Paul references our forgiveness it is in the past tense. Why? Because it is already done for you. It really is great news. This is half of what makes the gospel such great news.  This is not licentiousness though. Many misunderstand this point. Does this mean I can do whatever I want then? No, I am now free. Paul does say "all things are lawful for me, but not all things edify".  Did he really mean what he said? All things.... except. No all things.  The key though is the gospel does not stop with forgiveness. Three days later He rose from the dead in order to give us His very Life through the Holy Spirit. Jn 10:10- I have come that they might have life, and have it more abundantly.  Obviously if He came to give us life, we did not have it. Now, when I get saved I get both. First forgiven, second Christs life. You don't just get forgiven and then do as you please. Now I have one that I can depend on, that can control me (not a LB or an assembly).  I hope that is making some sense. I do not want to make books out of this BB, but this is what God began to show me back in 1994 that set me free.  Mark, again I say search the Scripture for yourself. Look for references concerning forgiveness of sins. Once a person gets a hold of this, he can begin to understand the New Covenant for the first time in his life and walk in the grace of God. "He gave His life for us, so that He could give His Life to us, so that He could live His life through us".  This is the meaning of the Christian life. This is not cheap grace. This is walking as a mature son before God, no longer needing to be treated as a slave under the law. Free from the law, O happy condition!
Feel free to come back to this post and ask further questions or challenge me on this. I will be glad to respond.  Thanks, VPG

Ok, I got most of what you were saying except for the first part of the second paragraph. Are you saying we never need to ask God's forgiveness. Just curious.

How about John?  1 John 1:9   If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


1 John was written to believers.  John includes himself in the verse,  "if we confess"
Here's other verses that reveal who John was writing to.
1 John 2:27  But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you.
1John 3:13  Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.

Lord Bless you,
Joel

One more point on this...

Vince, (Hi, by the way)

If we sin fellowship is broken between us and the Lord...how do you then explain renewing that which was seperated by our sin?  Does it just get better over time or what? Something has to be done to restore us and remove our transgressions or did you have something else in mind? Thanks...


Oh, and Michelle...I love the FREEDOM FIGHTER signature...go CREED!

Darn, Joel, you beat me to it!   ;)

And thanks Paul.

"I'm just a freedom fighter -
No remorse
Raging on in holy war
Soon there'll come a day when you're face to face with me"

(I'm a bit of a music nut, too.)

Hey saints,

   Sorry for the delay in response to questions from many for some clarification and  explanation of additional verses.   I will attempt to umbrella answer questions & comments from Paul R, Mark T, Michelle, JS (is this Jerry Starr), Scott, and Laura.  Man if you miss a day on this BB, you will fall behind. I do appreciate this discourse and again welcome feedback.

   My challenge was to find a verse Paul tells the Christian to ask for forgiveness from God after his/her salvation. No one has brought one forth. Do you not find that most curious?  Such an important doctrine as this, yet we can find several references Paul tells us to forgive each other as Christ forgave us or that Paul concludes the forgiveness issue is over. Col 2:13-14,  Acts 26:17-18, 10:43,  1Jn 2:12, 2Cor 5:18-19- I could go on and on with references.
The only one that deals with forgiveness in context of confession is 1Jn1:9.  This is the Word of God, so where does it fit?  Is forgiveness the result of confession? This is what most Christians believe. If we don't confess then we must conclude He does not forgive.  This sounds right to our human way of thinking.  But what about all the other passages I just mentioned. How is it that you can be totally forgiven and then insist you must confess to get forgiven?  That's all this will do is make you preoccupied with one thing- Your Sin!  How can you ever rest in His finished work?  So now instead of slaughtering a bull or goat, we just need to confess. That is a lot cleaner way to deal with my sin. But is that all the New Covenant is? Cleaner? How can we build an entire theological doctrine on one verse?  If true, it would be all over the New Testament.  Paul knew we were forgiven once for all, that is why he never tied the two (confession and forgiveness) together.
1John 1:9 is an invitation to the unbelievers (gnosics) who had crept in and infiltrated the believers to come into true fellowship. These heretics denied that Christ came in the flesh, hence the context of 1Jn 1:1-4 (we have seen Him, our hands have handled Him, etc...)  These heretics also denied we could sin, hence John says when we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us.  Do you see this is a plea for these people to acknowledge their gross error and face the truth about their sin.  Read verse 8 and verse 10 (context). " If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us ".   My friends, if you are a believer, the truth is in you. He is the truth. How can a believer not have the truth in Him? This is not a believer. Then go to 1Jn2:1- John makes a transition to talk to the believer. My little children...and then look at verse 12: "I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for His name's sake".  Could he be any clearer?
 
     I hope this helps clear up this one passage. Even if you do not agree with my interpretation of 1John, I will challenge you.  Let's agree to disagree about this one verse.  Now, let us look at this subject using the rest of the entire New Testament.  Show me your reasoning from Paul's writings, from the book of Hebrews, from anywhere else in the N.T.
Think of Heb 8:12. Here the writer is defining the New Coveant and what does he say: "...their sins and iniquities will I remember no more."  That is exactly what He does. We are forgiven once and for all.  God Bless- VPG

Vince, if you're saying we only need to confess our sin after we're saved and not ask God's forgiveness, do you than agree with everyone on this board saying that George needs to repent (I understand repentance to be different from confession)?

It's those kinds of things which make me not understand what you're saying. I John 2:1-2 says "if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And he is the propitiation for our not sins: and for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

Why do WE need an advocate and why do WE need propitiation now? I John 1:9 says "he IS faithful and just to forgive us..." Doesn't IS indicate the present, that He is faithful to forgive us in this present time? Why didn't that verse say "he WAS faithful and just to forgive us" referring to when Jesus died and paid the penalty for our sins? Why does the Bible say that us Christians who live now have an advocate? Why have an advocate if God doesn't forgive us now?

Peace

Phil, you're lucky. I just did a lengthy reply to your questions and somehow lost it while posting. So here go again. And thanks for the question.

George has offended many- he needs to acknowledge what he has done and make it right with those he offended.  This is the responsibility of walking in love toward our brother/sister.  We see an excellent example of this given in Eph 4:28-32 "Let him who steals steal no more:...And be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.  Notice Paul is dealing with a serious offense (sin). What does he tell the brother involved in stealing to do? Does he say that he should first confess his sin to God and ask for forgiveness? No, he tells him to STOP IT- Steal no more.  And notice in verse 32:  "forgiving each other (present tense), just as God in Christ also has forgiven you (past tense).  Why did Paul change tenses? Was it an oversite on his part. Every time he references a believers forgiveness it is in the past tense. See also Eph 1:7, Col 1:14, Col 3:13, et al.  I hope you see the distinction here. We are definately to ask one another for forgiveness, but we already have been forgiven before our Father. We acknowledge this forgiveness, but we do not need to ask for it. That would really mean His work was not enough.  The Christian world has misapplied this one verse in 1John1:9 and thereby negated the primary message of the New Covenant. The finished work of the cross. Think of 2Cor 5:19 "God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself not counting their sins against them. "   The gospel is better news than you could ever imagine. Totally forgiven. Phil, search the Scriptures to see if these things are so. I asked you in my last post to agree to disagree about 1John1:9. Look at the rest of the New Testament. You come back to me with a response using this very verse for prooftext.  Thats okay, I have no problem clarifying my position, but remember- we must get the big picture first. If  you don't understand the New Covenant first, you will be tripped up all over this passage. How can you reconcile your interpretation with the rest of the New Testament. It will leave you double-minded.  This whole subject of being in and out of fellowship with God is another assembly taught fallacy. It all ties into a performance based outlook. Gaining favor with God by what I am doing, rather than resting in His finished work on my behalf. Maybe I will get the inheritance.  I kind of doubt if this post is going to clear you up on your question. I started to see these things in 1994. I struggled and searched the Word to prove what I was seeing was wrong. I was taught under the assembly mindset. But to my dismay, I could not convince myself from the Word. The Spirit of God showed me.  I challenge any to prove from the Word what I am saying is false. I can add nothing to a finished work. Here's an assembly stumper verse: Heb 10:10 "By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."  Have been sanctified? What? 2Cor 6:11 "And such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.."  Think of the context and who he was telling this too. I don't know how I read that verse in the assembly for 11 years and did not see that. I have been sanctified.  At salvation, I got it all! Rejoice, this is good news.  Anyway Phil, I will stop now. This was the short version. I am sure we will be continuing this thread- I hope so anyway.  But do not let one verse negate the truth of the whole New Testament. God Bless- VPG

Vince,

Isn't acknowledging the same as confessing? What's the difference?

You are right in that Colossians 3:13 says, "...as Christ forgave you." He sure did! What He did on the cross was so amazing! I do not deny, Vince, that what Christ did was once and for all! However, Ephesians 1:7 and Colossians 1:14 say we have the forgiveness. You are also right in that we must look at a verse and relate to the Bible. So when I relate 1 John 1:9 to those verses that say we have forgiveness of sins, what does this culminate to? We have forgiveness of sins...and if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. That seems to suggest that we need to confess our sins when we realize we've done wrong because we have the forgiveness of sins (we still have it, it didn't run out). The blood of Jesus Christ never fails! But if we don't address our sin because we don't need to confess our sin because we've already been forgiven...I don't know, that makes it easy to ignore things we've done wrong to me...If we don't need to confess, why even worry about righteousness then?

It's not performance based (although I've done it that way before), it's because we love God and His commandments.

Peace

So Phil,

   Let's follow your logic. I have a question. What happens if I don't confess my sin to God then?  Am I not forgiven?

   The verse does say If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins.  Would that mean the opposite would have to be true also.  If we do not confess our sins, He does not forgive us?

    Then, what state does that leave us in?  What about the verse in Hebrews. "Without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness".   Is Christ going to shed His blood over in order for you to be forgiven. Do you see the break-down logically here. Do you see the contradiction?

      If not Phil, its okay. I really mean that.  We can differ on this point. You keep asking God to forgive you each time you sin. I will walk in the forgiveness He has given me.  But we can still be brethren in fellowship with one another and with the Lord. Another question-why did the brothers in St. Louis have to brand that way of looking at the Scriptures heretical and barr it from discussion with the saints. You see how the control of man can stifle the Spirit of God?  Anyway Phil, we are covering many points here. We should stick to my first question.  According to your understanding and interpretation of this verse, what happens if I don't confess my sins?

Okay, hang on.  

"This, then, is how you should pray:
   " 'Our Father in heaven,
   hallowed be your name,
     your kingdom come,
   your will be done
       on earth as it is in heaven.
    Give us today our daily bread.
    Forgive us our debts,
       as we also have forgiven our debtors.
    And lead us not into temptation,
   but deliver us from the evil one. ' For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."

Isn't Jesus teaching us to pray here?  And doesn't He call us to confess our sins to God?  So.......  Call me crazy, but I'm going to stick with Him.

Michelle,

Thanks for the verse. When I introduced the topic and the challenge to find  New Testament verses, I knew the two that would come up. 1Jn1:9 and this passage in Matthew.  Both texts that can be understood in context. This is the wonderful thing about getting the big picture of the difference between the two Covenants-Old and New. If you would of kept on quoting that passage you would see where the Lord goes with the very next statements: "For if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your heavenly Father forgive you"  Matt 6:15.  I would ask you to consider this. Under which covenant was Christ when He was on the earth? A covenant or will requires one thing. Death must take place. When does a will go into effect? Upon the death of the testator right? That is right out of Hebrews. Heb 9:16-17 "For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator"  What is the writer talking about? Have you ever thought about it? He is talking about the differences between the Old and New Covenant. You see Christ came to first bury men under the demands of the Law.  In effect, He was showing men the utter helpless condition we were in to be holy and righteous by trying to uphold the law.  That is the context of this verse.  

To further illustrate, let's say you are sharing the gospel with someone. You tell them Christ has paid the full price for their redemption. They must only believe and their sins will be forgiven and they will receive eternal life. They ask if they can receive this gift by faith.   But wait, there is a catch. You stop them and ask first- Have you forgiven everyone for every sin committed against you?  If not, you can not be forgiven.  Of course you don't;  you see this is in the same vein as calling your brother fool or lusting in your heart. If you do these things, you have committed murder and adultery.  These are the stringent demands of the law, meant to drive people to the question: Who then can be saved?  
I hope I did not lose you, but again it becomes vital to see the big picture. Not just take one verse out of context and build doctrine upon it.  
Please do not misunderstand my point here. I do not argue for some licentious, anything goes lifestyle. God forbid!  God has called us to share in His very Life.  What a privilege and calling.  The first step though, is to see the sin issue between us and God has been dealt with once and for all- never to be dealt with again. We can never go on to truly understand His grace until this occurs in our spiritual journey.   Now the issue is one of responsiblity- a noble, mature calling.  How am I treating my brother or sister. Am I walking in love?  Not walking any longer in fear or condemnation. God might punish me. It's time we once and for all grow up and move from that childish way of thinking.  Gal 4:24-26 "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.  But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.  For ye are all children of God by faith in Christ Jesus".   A noble calling indeed!
I hope this helps shed some light on the Matthew verse. VPG  (open to responses and questions)

Because I'm not the end-all and be-all of Scripture, I seek wise teachers as well.   ;)  John MacArthur has this to say on 1Jn1:7-9.

A genuine Christian walks habitually in the light (truth and holiness) not in darkness (falsehood and sin).  Their walk also results in cleansing from sin as the Lord continually forgives His own.  Since those walking in the light share the character of God, they will be habitually characterized by His holiness, indicating their true fellowship with Him.  A genuine Christian does not walk in darkness but only in light, and cleansing from sin continually occurs.

Not only did the false teachers walk in darkness but went so far as to deny totally the existence of a sin nature in their lives.  If someone never admits to being a sinner, salvation cannot result.  Not only did the false teachers make false claims to fellowship and disregard sin, they are also characterized by deceit regarding sinlessness.

Continual confession of sin is an indication of genuine salvation.  While the false teachers would not admit their sin, the genuine Christian admitted and forsook it.  The term "confess" means to say the same thing about sin as God does; to acknowledge His perspective about sin.  While v7 is from God's perspective, v9 is from the Christian's perspective.  Confession of sin characterizes genuine Christians, and God continually cleanses those who are confessing.  Rather than focusing on confession for every single sin as necessary, John has especially in mind here a settled recognition and acknowledgment that one is a sinner in need of cleansing and forgiveness.

(From "The MacArthur Study Bible")

Thanks Michelle,

I agree with that synopsis of the passage. It is very similar to what I was sharing. A believer walks in light, not darkness. He/she walks in continual forgiveness because they are in Christ. The gnostics had come into the group and were denying the sin nature. John was exposing this heresy.  Here is the point I want to get across and MacArthur makes it as well- Rather than focusing on confession for every single sin... Confession and forgiveness are not integrally linked together. This is unfortunately what keeps many Christians focusing only on their sins and constant need for forgiveness. This issue has been dealt with once and for all. Praise God for that. If you have not struggled in this way, that's great. I guess I am attempting to reach the believer in that frame of mind so as to set him/her free.  I believe we are on the same sheet of music though. Thanks, VPG

 

Luke 16:16  The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Matthew 28:19-20  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, (Gentiles) baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:   Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

What Jesus taught applies to us as Christians.  


Exactly.  So why would John tell unbelievers  " If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."   That's not how you get saved.  John 3:16 is how you get saved.  John is preaching another gospel if he is refering to unbelievers in 1 John 1:9

Why would Jesus tell unbelievers "For if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your heavenly Father forgive you"  So as an unbeliever, all I need to do is forgive others and God will forgive me?  Again, that is not how someone gets saved.

1 John is written to believers, the question in 1 John  is not "are you saved?"  the question is "are you abiding?"
When we abide we are in the light.  It is possible for a child of God to be in  darkness.
 I John 2:7a,9-10 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you
He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.  He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

Is it possible for a believer to hate his brother? Yes, when I do fall into this sin I need to cofess my sin and by faith, allow the Lord to bring me back in the light.

1 John 2:28  And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

Why would John encourage believers to do something that they are already doing, or something that is automatic?  

Vince, I believe that Jesus Christ accomplished for us a full salvation on the cross.  God has pronounced us righteous and holy.  Now He is in the process of making us holy.  He wants to make us more like Christ in our thoughts, words, and actions.  I know I have a ways to go.  It's not by me trying to be more like Christ, but it is by allowing Him to live through me.

On the most part we agree, but I think on a few point you are mistaken.

God Bless You,
Joel

In Board Speak, this is what we call a "hijacked topic."

However...

I don't want you to miss a particular sentence in what MacArthur wrote:

"Continual confession of sin is an indication of genuine salvation."

This seems to be missing from the general argument.

I'm going to ask a VERY serious and straightforward question to the brothers in St. Louis.

I have to ask -- because it was mentioned in a post, and because I have heard specific details elsewhere ....

ARE THERE BROTHERS IN ST. LOUIS WHO HAVE AT SOME TIME WITNESSED DAVID PHYSICALLY ABUSING JUDY???

This question NEEDS to be answered -- those of you in St. Louis discussing the future of this work here -- ASK -- DEMAND FROM -- THE BROTHERS FOR AN UPFRONT HONEST ANSWER

Dear Mark

What you said is not exactly true.  I don't know if the men who witnessed David smothering Judy with a pillow were in leadership at the time, as they were only 19 years old.  

However, there are brothers there who did witness this.  I have signed statements from them in my possesion.

Brent

I don't need it "cleared up for me".

It needs to be cleared up for those who are trying to decide what men are "leaders".

I can just think back, when I was 19 and single and 'naive' -- living in saint's homes -- if I EVER would have walked in and seen a brother forecefully holding his wife down and smothering her with a pillow -- HOW COULD YOU NOT IMMEDIATELY PACK YOUR THINGS AND MOVE OUT -- that's a marriage to emulate???  That's a brother who can form the mindset of a local church??????  

WAKE UP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Whoever witnessed this, PLEASE DON'T NOW LOOK YOUR BRETHREN IN THE EYES AND DENY IT!!!!

If there was ever a time for the truth, ever an opportunity for clarity, EVER A TIME TO BE HONEST WITH YOUR FAMILY AND YOUR BRETHREN == YOOOOOOOOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOOOOOO   NOW IS THE TIME !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I wasn't there.  I don't know who.  All I know is what I've heard -- but I have heard it from some RELIABLE witnesses -- who have nothing to gain by lying.

Dear Mark, not that it's going to make a difference, but there have been many things happen is many assy's thru the years that haven't been owned up to. Maybe the brothers have forgotten about the incident due to the majorly lame excuse they were given for the reason it was happening.  I can only say that it did happen and I won't betry how I found out.

Dear Ken and Toni

I cannot remain silent anymore.  Ken and Toni you know who I am and have no need of explanation.  Verne, in case you don't know I am the son of an elder here in St. Louis. He and another brother were the first ones appointed as "leading brothers" many moons ago.  

I am not sure what you have heard or who you have talked to, but the alleged person who "witnessed" the abuse is my father.  He recently wrote a letter to Judy and apologized and told here what he saw.  What he saw is as follows:

He heard some noise. He and another brother were in their room.  They proceeded to run to the source of the noise which came from David and Judy's room.  When he arrived on the scene David was on top of her holding her down. (Not smothering her with a pillow.  Herein lies a great descrepancy.  My father never saw this take place.  I know Rachel eludes to this taking place at one point in St. Louis, but he was not and eyewitness of that behavior.)  David turned to him and angerly yelled at him to get out!  Later David explained that sometimes it is neccesary to restrain your wife if she throws something at you or trys to hit you.

This is the story that has been told to me, and I simply relay it to all who view this BB. Ken and Toni if you have any questions you have my fathers phone number...give him a call.  If you want to see the letter my father would be more than willing to sit down with you and go over what he wrote and why he wrote it.  

Lord Bless

Honestly, I didn't have a clue who the 'witness(es)' were, or even if it really happened.

All I was trying to say (and sorry if I got a bit emotional about it) was that it needs to get out in the open.  This is definitely a time to bring things to light and hide NOTHING.

It is very encouraging to see things like this brought to light and dealt with.  What a relief actually!!

It's relieving to know that at least there weren't coverups and gross evil deeds known here in St. Louis.

And Daniel, yes I know your father well and trust him.  He has been a positive influence in my life many times, some of which were very key times when no one else was able to go out to me.

The particulars of this incident I don't need to know or be assured of anything.  I'm just glad to see it open and dealt with.

Happy Birthday to Ken Teater!    :)

Love in Christ,
H

Hello Verne,

I remember you well from Champaign.  I left the assy. in '94 thanks to the grace of God.  I do keep in touch with some of the saints. What I understand is that each of the leadership has stepped down. A letter to that effect was read to the saints on Tuesday Feb 18th.  4 of the leading brothers stepped down then. Paul Martin stepped down 2 weeks prior to that. He always was a brother willing to step out and go in a different direction. The other 4 followed each others lead. This is information coming from an outsider (me).  I stay in semi-regular contact with Joe Babor and Gus Dodorico from the assembly.  If anyone else has information more current or more correct, please feel free to communicate that here.  I wish them all the best. Their are very dear saints in St. Louis that have given allegiance and loyalty to the group for decades.  I hope none lose their faith over this, but it needs to be redirected anyway in most cases.

Dear Mr. Robinson:

I do believe the disappointment is that the Chicago and St. Louis assemblies have not disbanded.  

Paul:
I am not attempting to answer for Verne.  The disappointment is one that many of us feel about gatherings that are still trying to carry on.  For me, knowing that the weekly meetings are continuing means that people are still blinded to the core issues that are deeply rooted in each place.  

Paul,
What Verne and Nancy are trying to say is that they are disappointed that there are still those who are upholding the system that George Geftakys began. They are not saying that these people are necessarily "in sin", etc...only God knows the heart. Verne Carty knows many of the people involved and has the right to express his disappointment in them. This hardly makes him some kind of "assembly police" as you put it.  Frankly, I have heard many sad stories of saints who think this website is a pack of lies, who don't think GG was an immoral man, etc. and they continue to meet in the "old" way. This is alarming and tragic. I was involved with the Geftakys' for 27 years and can easily understand the disappointment of those who see saints wanting to continue that unhealthy system with little or no change.  At the same time, I praise God for those who sincerely desire change because God will lead them.
If these opinions turn you into a PatMathewsFan so be it. I'ma TinaRobinsonFan....so there!
Blessings.

I will say it outloud. If you follow a man who is in sin and allow him into your home (George G) then don't you become defiled in the process? No offense folks but Brinda McCumbers story says George knew about the abuse between Dave and Judy as early as the 1970's. This is a man that you want to follow and emulate? George is an evil man and his sons are evil yet you say how wonderful and good they are. If this is true, Why were Dave & Judy moved so often? Was it because somebody might notice a pattern of abuse?

So your wife throws something at you and you can't duck? You have to wrestle with her to the ground, physically restraining her and you don't find this odd? I can't think of any reason why, if your wife was possibly hysterical that you would have to restrain her forcefully and when someone comes into the room, you yell at them to get out? This is not normal behavior.

C'mon people, catch a clue. Leaders are apologizing for their actions, something happened.

These men that you hold onto so dearly are corrupt. The corruption comes directly from George and filters down. Take the 6 week challenge! What are you afraid of?

Heide

Dear Paul

I don't know if anyone has ever told you this, but you come off as an arrogant moron when you post.  Case in point: the way you belittle Verne and Nancy.

Verne is dissapointed, because he is a man of God, who has a concern for people that are blind to how they have been mislead by a fraud.  (George Geftakys and his servants)  Verne prays for all of you, and expects God to work a great deliverance, so when he sees that people are hardening their hearts, and holding on to darkness, he is dissapointed.

Before you go off and say, "How can say they are hardening their hearts!  Are you there?"  Let me say that from my point of view, you people are in bondage, and are deceived, blind, naked and wretched.  You may react to this, and again become a BrentTr0ckmanfan, actually I am honored by this.

However, you would do well to learn something from this, so you don't make the same mistake that we all made, later on in your life.  Trust me, I am not alone in saying that you need to be warned.

You might find that if you actually attempt to write substantive things, and think with the brain God gave you, you could learn something from people who have been involved much longer than you have.

Now, in spite of the fact that I have attempted to knock you off you hobby horse, I do hope you will continue to keep your eyes and ears open, and that you will continue on here in a mature fashion.  You can actually lift the tone considerably merely by ceasing some of the silly attacks and jabs.

Brent

Brent

Alright, alright...

Dear Brent,

First of all, yes, I agree...I do come off as an arrogant moron...I'm not attempting to come off as any more than that...Nothing more, nothing less... ;)
Second of all, you keep responding to me as though I am in the assembly...I have not been at an assembly meeting for two months and will never go in the future...I have moved on...I will not participate in the foolishness that is continuing in the gatherings...I think it should disband also...but I DO NOT THINK having a Bible Study or a time of worship in someone's home is wrong or unBiblical...
Let me tell you, I am dissapointed also, along with Mr. Carty...the only thing that I did not understand with his post was that he has no idea what has transpired in any given gathering, yet he is dissapointed???  How can you be disappointed in what you do not know?  Likewise, how can anyone who has not been directly involved with the assembly in St. Louis place any judgment on motives, actions, or anything for that matter...
Brent (and whoever else it may concern), you know plenty about the assembly that gathered in SLO and maybe even the assembly in Fullerton and all I knew about those places was what I got from you and your site...I have no idea how much of George's doctrine was used in these places, but what I do know is that St. Louis, while having its faults was a very different assembly with very different people, different personalities, different cultures, different Christian walks, different outreaches, different "meetings", different leaders, etc. etc...I cannot judge how a person is reacting in California because I cannot witness anything, and I especially cannot judge if I have no details at all...Not only does the whole "assembly" thing continue to frustrate me, but also the nerve that people have in judging motives, character, etc. etc. with little or no information...it's better to wait than speak and put your foot in your mouth, if you will...(case in point: speaking to me like I'm in the assembly when in fact I had been out for two months...I had waited to say that I had left for this very reason...) I hate to respond to Mr. Carty's post speaking of him in third person but there needed to be some clearing up...
Though I do stick some serious things on here every once in a while, I try to keep everything pretty tongue-in-cheek...
This post however has been completely tongue-in-cheek-free...

Oh, Pat...NO FAN FOR YOU...ONE YEAR!!!!

FanVoidofDirection HA!

P.S. Brent, am I more off or more on?????   :D

Verne and Nancy,

I apologize for my posts to both of you...Please forgive me...

I kind of see your points now...I hope you see mine...

Fan

Ditto for me - all is forgiven

Heide,

To whom are you speaking??

Fan