AssemblyBoard

In my readings over the last few years I have been led to compile some of my favorite quotes.  They have both challenged and encouraged me. Here goes  :)

"The great thing about serving the poor is that there is no competition."
                                                                     -Eugene Rivers

"Preach the gospel at all times. If necessary, use words."
                                                                     _Francis of Assisi

"If change is to come, it will come from the margins...It was the desert, not the temple, that gave us the prophets."
                                                          -Wendell Berry

"Love in action is a harsh and dreadful thing compared with love in dreams.  Love in dreams is greedy for immediate action, rapidly performed and in sight of all.  Men will give their lives if only the ordeal does not last long but is soon over, with all looking on and applauding as if on the stage.  But active love is labor and fortitude."
                                                             -Fyodor Dostoyevsky

"Parents who are excessively strict may end up teaching their children nothing about decency and everything about deceit." :o
                                                                 -Nancy Tuckerman

"Teamwork reflects leadership"
                                       
Remember the Titans  (movie)

"Go RAMS"

(oh wait, it's too late for that)

"I still hope for victory, but not by arms...yet it is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who love after may have clean earth to till." (Gandalf)
                                               -from the chapter "The Last Debate"
                                                Lord of the Rings series

"The difference between Western culture and other cultures is that in the West human beings exploit other human beings, whereas elsewhere in the world, it is the other way around."
 :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
                                                              -source unknown

"Here is revelation as bright as the evening star: Jesus comes for sinners, for those as outcast as tax collectors and for those caught up in squalid choices and failed dreams.  He comes for corporate executives, street people, superstars, farmers, hookers, addicts, IRS agents, AIDS victims, and even used car salesmen.  Jesus not only talks with these people but dines with them--fully aware that His table fellowship with sinners will raise the eyebrows of religious bureaucrats who hold up their robes and insignia of their authority to justify their condemnation of the truth and their rejection of the gospel of grace."

Brennan Manning
The Ragamuffin Gospel

"These are free individuals with certain legal and moral rights, including the right to engage in insurrection against those who would enslave them."  

Amistad

"In a world of fugitives the person taking the opposite direction will appear to run away."     T.S. Eliot

The reserve of modern assertions is sometimes pushed to extremes, in which the fear of being contradicted leads the writer to strip himself of almost all sense and meaning.

Sir Winston Churchill

(you can go against the OLD-lodge thinking)

"I ...realized I had always devoted my time and attention to people who fascinated me and were pleasant, who engaged my sympathy, and that as a result I was seeing society like the moon, always from one side."
                                                  -Alexsandr Solzhenitsyn

This struck a nerve in my soul. :(

Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened.

Sir Winston Churchill

   'There was never anything by the wit of man so well devised, or so sure established, which in continuance of time has not been corrupted.'

             The Common Book of Prayer

You can't make chicken salad out of chicken ____(scata). ::)

My Dad

"One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore."    Andre Gire

"Do all the good you can.
    By all the means you can.
In all the ways you can.
     At all the times you can.
   To all the people you can.
As long as ever you can."
                                John Wesley

Hey, Pat it's me your sis!

Annie-Bannie!

Annie,
How is my cute little seester? Welcome aboard! ::)

Hi Ann!!!!!!!!!

Welcome to the bb.  Don't our men "ROCK" !! I want to meet you.  I hear you're pretty wonderful ( and funny).  Now who do you think might have spread that rumor?
Suzie
Ooops!  Brent didn't write this.  Did you know that I am blonde?

Dear Pat,
how do you put that smiley face thing on there?

I am good.  I am more than ever appreciating my husband.  I am also telling him to tone it down.  He is a scary person when you don't know him.  I think these people are so used to dumbly following, I don't know if they will live long enough to get truley free of all of Georgrimma Wormtongue Geftakys's influence.

I am not sure I really like this format for discussion.  I have way more to say than I care to take the time to type.  

For anyone who cares, I am the youngest sister of Pat Mathews, Becky Cohen, Chris Sjogren, Nancy Lehmkuhl, and Mike Miller.  My husband is Chuck Vanasse.  I left the Assembly about 25 years ago after being part of it for 3+ years.  My dad is Chuck Miller.  I love my family.  There are also three younger brothers who are as much victims of the assembly farce as anyone.  They all have an aversion to christianity because of all the unchristian things they have observed over these long years.

DD - call me.

blessings,
Ann Vanasse

Annie,
Email me privately. Click on my name. A box will come up. Scroll down and then send me a private email. A better way for your personal and most illuminative thoughts, my dear. :) :) :)
Just click on the smilies you want and they will appear :o :o :o :o :o :o
Love you,
Pat

Dear Suyzi,
I have also been accused of being blonde, although some of my relatives remember me as a redhead.  I am a faithful follower of MC (Ms. Clairol)  My sympathies to you for your haircolor plight.

Did you hear about the blonde who took a ruler with her to bed?  She wanted to know how long she slept.  

Yes, our men are definitely amazing.  

Let's do lunch.  When are you coming to Kansas?

blessings,
Ann

PS - I prefer to communicate by phone or through my e-mail.  Please write me at annvanasse@yahoo.com or call me - 816-591-5447

Ladies, ladies. This thread is for quotes to ponder not blonde to blonder!
PLEASE :o
Let me help:
"Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and not tried."  G.K. Chesterton

Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.  That way, when you DO criticize them, you'll be a mile away and you have their shoes. ;D
                                           
                                         --Author Unknown(at least to me)

Not to say that I agree with the whole criticizing part.  I just think this quote is pretty funny.

By the way, hello, Miss Pat, I like how yall've come up wit dis swell lil' place to put sum quotes.  I'll be using this a lot.  
Also, if you could, Sister, could you remind your sons to write me.  I'd love to hear from them and keep in close contact.  My e-mail is m2tall4real@msn.com.  Thanks a lot.  
God bless you.

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson

Do you feel that something is missing in your soul.
You want something more?

There is only One you need.

Hey, I'm reading the posts and listening to a CD.
R.St.James - Transform; On my new P4-2.4 Gig  ;)

The early bird gets the worm, but who really wants to eat a worm?
            -Anon (he has red hair though)


   

Go to bed, Ben. You're tired.

Don't try your Assembly mind tricks on me dear mother! ;D ;D

I'm not a yes-man. When Senator Dodge says 'no,' I say 'no.'
- Thomas Jefferson Johnson, "The Distinguished Gentleman."

"Untilled ground, however rich, will bring forth thistles and thorns, so also the mind of man."   Teresa of Avila  (1515-1582)

p.s. this is not an editorial comment on previous posts here :)

I'm going to go way out on a limb and say ...

LUKE ROBINSON is THE MAN.  Great advice from a great guy.  Just remember Luke, walk tall and carry a big stick.

PS>  "Lets just plop them in front of the TV. I was raised in front of the TV and I turned out TV"
Homer Simpson

I'm going to go way out on a limb and say ...

LUKE ROBINSON is THE MAN.  Great advice from a great guy.  Just remember Luke, walk tall and carry a big stick.

PS>  "Lets just plop them in front of the TV. I was raised in front of the TV and I turned out TV"
Homer Simpson

"...I could not 'make' you  -- except by force, which would break your mind."

Gandalf, The Fellowship of the Ring, Chapter 2.

Sad but true that George through the assembly has "broken" many minds.

None of these quotes have anything to do with anything but I figured, what the heck, we can all use a good laugh or a deep thought every now and again.

I have just about had all I can take of myself.
                                            -SN Berhman (whoever he is)

The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits.
                                            -Unknown(if you get this you won't be offended by it) (the same with the next one)

The only reason people get lost in thought is because it's unfarmiliar territory.
                                            -Paul Fix

I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just.
                                           -Thomas Jefferson (As true as it was then, as it is now)

Things have never been more like they are today in history.
                                           -Eisenhower

I'm in a phone booth at the corner of walk and don't walk.
                                           -Unknown

Talk is cheap because supply exceeds demand.
                                           -Unknown

I would continue with more but you all seem nice enough that I won't burden you with more disjointed mumbo jumbo. ;D

The optimist sees opportunity in every danger; the pessimist sees danger in every opportunity. -- Winston Churchill

Patience with others is Love,
Patience with self is Hope,
Patience with God is Faith.
-- Adel Bestavros

Never express yourself more clearly than you are able to think. -- Niels Bohr

Sometimes paranoia's just having all the facts. -- William S. Burroughs

We are drowning in information, but starved for knowledge. -- John Naisbilt

Whatever you are, be a good one-- Abraham Lincoln  ;)

"Well, I think I'm going to go to the dentist."
       "What?  Now?"
"Yeah, after being in the assembly, nothing hurts"

The old man critics on the Muppets.  Some modifications made :)

"We must be the change we wish to see in the world."  Gandhi

" Relationships, not achievements or the acquisition of things, are what matters most in life.  So why do we allow our relationships to get the short end of the stick?  When our schedules become overloaded, we start skimming relationally, cutting back on giving the time, energy, and attention that loving relationships require.  What's most important to God is displaced by what's urgent.
     Busyness is a great enemy of relationships.  We become preoccupied with making a living, doing our work, paying bills and accomplishing goals as if these tasks are the point of life.  They are not.  The point of life is learning to love - God and people.  Life minus love equals zero."
Rick Warren

Here are some of my favorites

There are three kinds of people in this world, people who can count, and those who can't. ;)

Good judgement comes from experience.  Unfortunately, much of that comes as a result of bad judgement. ::)

The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese..... ;D

Giving money to politicians is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys.

Brent

Every day I break my own personal record for number of consecutive days I've been alive!!

"If people listened to themselves more often, they would talk less." -- Anonymous

My addition!

 I AM THANKFUL
 FOR THE WIFE
 WHO SAYS IT'S HOT DOGS TONIGHT,
 BECAUSE SHE IS HOME WITH ME,
 AND NOT OUT WITH SOMEONE ELSE.
 
 
 FOR THE HUSBAND
 WHO IS ON THE SOFA
 BEING A COUCH POTATO,
 BECAUSE HE IS HOME WITH ME
 AND NOT OUT AT THE BARS.
 
 
 FOR THE TEENAGER
 WHO IS COMPLAINING ABOUT DOING DISHES
 BECAUSE THAT MEANS SHE IS AT HOME,
 NOT ON THE STREETS.

 
 
 FOR THE TAXES
 THAT I PAY
 BECAUSE IT MEANS THAT
 I AM EMPLOYED.
 
 
 FOR THE MESS
 TO CLEAN AFTER A PARTY
 BECAUSE IT MEANS THAT I HAVE
 BEEN SURROUNDED BY FRIENDS.
 
 
 
 FOR THE CLOTHES
 THAT FIT A LITTLE TOO SNUG
 BECAUSE IT MEANS
 I HAVE ENOUGH TO EAT.
 
 
 FOR MY SHADOW
 THAT WATCHES ME WORK
 BECAUSE IT MEANS
 I AM OUT IN THE SUNSHINE.
 
 
 FOR A LAWN
 THAT NEEDS MOWING,
 WINDOWS THAT NEED CLEANING,
 AND GUTTERS THAT NEED FIXING
 BECAUSE IT MEANS I HAVE A HOME.
 
 
 FOR ALL THE COMPLAINING
 I HEAR ABOUT THE GOVERNMENT
 BECAUSE IT MEANS THAT
 WE HAVE FREEDOM OF SPEECH.
 
 
 
 FOR THE PARKING SPOT
 I FIND AT THE FAR END OF THE PARKING LOT
 BECAUSE IT MEANS I AM CAPABLE OF WALKING
 AND THAT I HAVE BEEN
 BLESSED WITH TRANSPORTATION.
 

 
 FOR MY HUGE HEATING BILL
 BECAUSE IT MEANS
 I AM WARM.
 
 
 
 FOR THE LADY
 BEHIND ME IN CHURCH
 THAT SINGS OFF KEY
 BECAUSE IT MEANS
 THAT I CAN HEAR.
 
 
 
 FOR THE PILE
 OF LAUNDRY AND IRONING
 BECAUSE IT MEANS
 I HAVE CLOTHES TO WEAR.



 FOR WEARINESS
 AND ACHING MUSCLES
 AT THE END OF THE DAY
 BECAUSE IT MEANS
 I HAVE BEEN
 CAPABLE OF WORKING HARD.
 
 

 
 AND FINALLY...
 
 FOR TOO MUCH E-MAIL
 BECAUSE IT MEANS I HAVE
 FRIENDS WHO ARE THINKING OF ME.
 

Hmmm...well, I have a fan.  Very strange.  Oh well.  But on to the poe--er--quote.  This is one of my favorite poems.  Hope the rest of you like it.  But if you don't, well, tough tomatoes.

Luke Robinson

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Charge of the Light Brigade
Alfred, Lord Tennyson
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1.
Half a league, half a league,
 Half a league onward,
All in the valley of Death
 Rode the six hundred.
"Forward, the Light Brigade!
"Charge for the guns!" he said:
Into the valley of Death
 Rode the six hundred.
2.
"Forward, the Light Brigade!"
Was there a man dismay'd?
Not tho' the soldier knew
 Someone had blunder'd:
Their's not to make reply,
Their's not to reason why,
Their's but to do and die:
Into the valley of Death
 Rode the six hundred.
3.
Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon in front of them
 Volley'd and thunder'd;
Storm'd at with shot and shell,
Boldly they rode and well,
Into the jaws of Death,
Into the mouth of Hell
 Rode the six hundred.
4.
Flash'd all their sabres bare,
Flash'd as they turn'd in air,
Sabring the gunners there,
Charging an army, while
 All the world wonder'd:
Plunged in the battery-smoke
Right thro' the line they broke;
Cossack and Russian
Reel'd from the sabre stroke
 Shatter'd and sunder'd.
Then they rode back, but not
 Not the six hundred.
5.
Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon behind them
 Volley'd and thunder'd;
Storm'd at with shot and shell,
While horse and hero fell,
They that had fought so well
Came thro' the jaws of Death
Back from the mouth of Hell,
All that was left of them,
 Left of six hundred.
6.
When can their glory fade?
O the wild charge they made!
 All the world wondered.
Honor the charge they made,
Honor the Light Brigade,
 Noble six hundred.
 

Dedicated to the men and women in the arena:

"The credit belongs to the man who is actually In The Arena, whose face is marred by dust and blood;who strives valiantly;who errs, who comes up short again and again...who at best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and at worst, if he fails, fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold, timid souls who know neither victory or defeat."
Theodore Roosevelt

'The only easy day was yesterday.'

U.S. NAVY SEAL Motto
Hooyah

"Walk tall and carry an armored tank division..."

 - Jack Nicholson

"He who permits himself to tell a lie once, finds it much easier to do it a second and third time, till at length it becomes habitual; he tells lies without attending to it, and truths without the world's believing him" -

Thomas Jefferson

Here's some of my fav's:

The leading brothers need to learn how to carry a double yoke.  To earn living and labor in the word.

New Living Paraphrase - George Geftakys

================================

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Take MY yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find REST unto your souls.
For MY yoke is easy, and my burden is light

JESUS

==================================

Galatians 5:1
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

PAUL

Lisa, vampires are make-believe, like elves, gremlins, and eskimos
Homer Simpson
 
I'm normally not a praying man, but if you're up there, please save me Superman
Homer Simpson

From a wise man in China:

:

 1) No matter how hard you try, you can't baptize cats.
 2) When your Mom is mad at your Dad, don't let her brush your hair.
 3) If your sister hits you, don't hit her back. They always catch
the second person.
 4) Never ask your 3-year old brother to hold a tomato.
 5) You can't trust dogs to watch your food.
 6) Don't sneeze when someone is cutting your hair.
 7) Never hold a Dust-Buster and a cat at the same time.
 8) You can't hide a piece of broccoli in a glass of milk.
 9) Don't wear polka-dot underwear under white shorts.
 10) The best place to be when you're sad is Grandma's lap.

DEAR LUKEROBINSONFAN:

Alright, may I ask who is so kindly using my name as their sign in?  That would be nice.  Thank you.

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson

"We can live fully only by making ourselves as answerable to the claims of eternity as to those of time."  Wendell Berry

I saw this on a church sign on the way to the prayer meeting tonight:

"Forbidden Fruits get you into a lot of jams." ;D

Here's some more:

"Be ye fishers of men; you catch em, He'll clean em."

"Give the devil an inch, and he'll be a ruler."

Anyone else have some interesting church sign quotes?

Feel Free.

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson

Church sign on Super Bowl Sunday

Let's all meet at My house before the game!

"Of all the Doctrines of the Bible, none is so offensive to human nature as the doctrine of GOD'S SOVEREIGNTY."  
 
— J. C. RYLE          
 

DEAR LUKE ROBINSON

You may. I am "so kindly," as you put it, using a concatenated form of your name as a PORTION of my sign in.  Please note that I am not technically using "your name," as you put it, as my sign in.  Please refer to the following equation for help in this matter:

For the following string variables:
X - "Your FIRST Name"
Y - "Your LAST Name"  
Z - "A Word"    
signin - "my sign in"
       
      signin = "X" + "Y" + "Z"

my sign looks like this: LUKEROBINSONFAN = "LUKE" + "ROBINSON" + "FAN"

in this case I chose "FAN" as my Z Variable.  In english fan may be used as a noun or a verb.  I chose to use it as a noun.

As a noun FAN may refer to one of the following:

1. An ardent devotee; an enthusiast. Short for fanatic.
2. A device for creating a current of air or a breeze, especially:
  A machine using an electric motor to rotate thin, rigid vanes in order to move air, as for cooling.
  A collapsible, usually wedge-shaped device made of a light material such as silk, paper, or plastic.
3. A machine for winnowing.
4. Something resembling an open fan in shape: a peacock's fan.

I used FAN in this case with definition number 1,  an ardent devotee.  I could have chosen to use the full word "fanatic".  That would have looked like this:

LUKEROBINSONFANATIC = "LUKE" + "ROBINSON" + "FANATIC"

In this case I did not want your name associated directly with the word "fanatic," because fanatic tends to have a negative connotation in our society.
Its' shortened form "fan," on the other hand is generally well received in most social circles, depending of course, on what you are a "fan" of.
For instance if you were a "fan" of Saddam Hussein, you would probably be castigated in some manner, even publicly shunned by family and friends.  However if you were a fan of Sideshow Bob, you would probably meet with general approval.

You can see of course by the singin equation I have carefully chosen, that I have wide latitude in the sign in names I could have created.

Some possible sign-in names I coud have chosen include, but are not limited to:
LUKEROBINSONBANKROBBER
LUKEROBINSONDRESS
LUKEROBINSONWONDERWOMAN
LUKEROBINSONMONKEY
LUKEROBINSONALKDLKJAOEIRJFKLJDLKJFOIEIOOSDJFLKJLKSFOIEUALALK
LUKEROBINSONSMURF
LUKEROBINSONPAPASMURF
LUKEROBINSONDUKESOFHAZARD
LUKEROBINSONSHORTPERSON

I hope this was helpful.

Thanks,

LUKEROBINSONFAN

"Americans are a free people, who know that freedom is the right of every person and the future of every nation. The liberty we prize is not America’s gift to the world, it is God’s gift to humanity."

President George W. Bush

"To educate a man in mind and not in morals is to educate a menace to society."
-Theodore Roosevelt

"It depends on what the meaning of 'is' is."
-Bill Clinton

 ;D

"If anything is hated bitterly, it is the out-and-out gospel of the grace of God, especially if that hateful word "SOVEREIGNTY" is mentioned with it.

Dare to say "He will have mercy on whom he will have mercy, and he will have compassion on whom he will have compassion" [Romans 9:15], and furious critics will revile you without stint.

The modern religionist not only hates the doctrine of sovereign grace, but he raves & rages at the mention of it. He would sooner hear you blaspheme than preach election by the Father, atonement by the Son, or regeneration by the Spirit. If you want to see a man worked up till the Satanic is clearly uppermost, let some of the new divines hear you preach a free-grace sermon.

A gospel which is after men will be welcomed by men; but it needs a divine operation upon the heart and mind to make a man willing to receive into his inmost soul this distasteful gospel of the grace of God."

C.H. Spurgeon

"A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both."

       - Dwight D. Eisenhower (1890-1969), Inaugural Address, January 20, 1953


"Happiness and moral duty are inseparably connected."

       - George Washington

Dear LukeRobinsonFan,

Thank you.  That was quite ensightful and enlightening.  Thank you for that.  But I would still like to know who you are.  Please feel free to let me know at your convenience.  
But if you don't...sigh...I guess I can live with that too.  But whatever floats your boat.

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson

"Man's entire apostasy and death in sin, so that he cannot save himself;  
and God's entire supremacy, so that He saves whom He will;  
are doctrines exceedingly distasteful to human pride."

Horatius Bonar

Luke
I think LukeRobinsonFan should reveal his/her identity. They should be proud to be YOUR fan. ;)

Now back to Quotes to Ponder:
"If you think of this world as a place intended simply for our happiness, you will find it quite intolerable: think of it as a place of training and correction and it's not so bad."     C.S. Lewis

FAITH IS TRUST

For we walk by faith, not by sight (2 Corinthians 5:7)


The nature of faith is to trust in the dark, when all appearances are against it; to trust that a calm will come, though the storm be overhead; to trust that God will appear, though nothing but evil be felt. It is tender, child-like, and therefore is an implicit confidence, a yielding submission, a looking unto the Lord. There is something filial in this; something heavenly and spiritual; not the bold presumption of the daring, nor the despairing fears of the desponding; but something beyond both the one and the other -- equally remote from the rashness of presumption, and from the horror of despair. There is a mingling of holy affection connected with this trust, springing out of a reception of past favours, insuring favours to come; and all linked with a simple hanging and depending of the soul upon the Lord, because He is what He is. There is a looking to, and relying upon the Lord, because we have felt the Lord; and because we have no other refuge.


And why have we no other refuge? Because poverty has driven us out of false refuges. It is a safe spot, though not a comfortable one, to be where David was, 'refuge failed me; no man cared for my soul' (Psalm 142:4). And until refuge fails us in man, in self, in the world, in the church, there is no looking to Christ as a divine refuge. But when we come to this spot, 'Thou art my refuge and my portion in the land of the living' (Psalm 142:5) -- 'if I perish I will perish at thy feet -- my faith centres in thee -- all I have and all I expect to have, flows from thy bounty, I have nothing but what thou freely givest to me, the vilest of the vile' -- this is trust. And where this trust is, there will be a whole army of desires at times pouring themselves into the bosom of the Lord; there will be a whole array of pantings and longings venting themselves into the bosom of 'Immanuel, God with us'.

[From J C Philpot (1802-1869), 'Ears from Harvested Sheaves; or, Daily Portions', reading for December 27th]

"I am reminded that one old saint was asked, 'which is the more important: reading God's word or praying?' To which he replied, 'which is more important to a bird: the right wing or the left.'"    A.W. Tozer

"Two things fill the mind with ever increasing wonder and awe- the starry heavens above me and the moral law with in me."

Immanuel Kant

Dear Luke Robinson, so you want to know who I am.

Let's play a game.  It's called "The FACT game” or “The FAT game” for short.

I'll give you some irrefutable, undeniable facts - you carefully weigh these facts and tell me who I am.

Let’s begin:
====================================
FACT:  I am shorter than you.
FACT:  I am a mammal.
FACT:  I’m from America.
FACT:  I speak American.
FACT:  I have a face.
FACT:  I have superpowers.
FACT:  I always use my superpowers to fight the forces of evil.
FACT:  I am very funny.
FACT:  I am very smart.
FACT:  I can writing really smart.
FACT:  I am well known about many subjects.
FACT:  I am not Michael Jackson.
FACT:  I am not a crook.
FACT:  I am not an Eskimo.
FACT:  I know where you live.
=====================================

Please let me know if these “15 Facts!” have been helpful for you in your personal quest for truth.

LUKEROBINSONFAN aka “The American Mammal”

"Election is God's choosing us in Christ before the world was made. Redemption is God purchasing his elect out of the hands of his own law by the blood of Christ. Regeneration is God giving dead sinners life in Christ, and Christ living in us. Forgiveness is God pardoning our sins through the blood of Christ. Justification is God clothing us with and imputing to us the righteousness of Christ. Sanctification is God forming Christ in us, imparting his righteousness to us. Resurrection is God raising us up by the power of Christ. Glorification is God conforming us to the image of Christ, to which end we were predestinated in the eternal purpose of his grace."

Don Fortner

Roger Daltry (the Who)

Lukerobinsonfan,

Let's examine your "facts":

You do not speak American. There is no such language.

You are not particularly funny.

You are not nearly as smart as you believe you are.

I don't know what, "I can writing really smart" means except that it means you cannot write (or at least type) well.

I don't know what, "I am well known about many subjects" means, either.

So since we're playing guessing games, here's my guess: You're a 12 year old dork from the St. Louis assembly.

Close?

Scott McCumber,

Let's examine your poor judgement:

In AMERICA we have something called "humor."  One definition of humor in the American language is: "the trait of appreciating (and being able to express) the humorous."  Since you don't have a sense of humor you should probably ignore my post.

If you HAD a sense of humor you'd realize my post is very good natured.

ALSO you failed to notice it was NOT addressed to you, like for example THIS POST is.  You can pretty much tell right away who a post is addressed to by the NAME at the TOP of the post.  Please note that my previous post started like this: "Dear Luke Robinson."

I hope this is helpful to you.  

"English…who needs that, I'm never going to England." Homer Simpson

"Me Fail English? That's Unpossible!" Homer Simpson

DOH! Back at ya, bro! ::)

Actually, I figured you were one of Luke's friends giving him a hard time.

Kind of the ol' dish it out, but . . . .  Well, you know!

Scott

PS - I know you are "very smart" but you do realize this is a Bulletin Board and not an email or instant message, right?

we're gonna need a bigger boat  - Jaws

We're on a mission from God  - Blues Brothers

lord, give me the serenity to accept the things i cannot change, courage to change the things i can, and wisdom to know the difference  - anon

I believe in God like I believe in the sun rise. Not because I can see it, but because I can see all that it touches.

A God. The God. One word can make all the difference in the world.

Now that I am a Christian I do not have moods in which the whole thing looks very improbable: but when I was an atheist I had moods in which Christianity looked terribly probable.

C. S. Lewis


In case you were wondering, i just found my "favorite qoute" file   ;D

OK, so what's the speed of dark ?  - Stephen Wright

"Without a due sense of Predestination, we shall want the surest and the most powerful inducement to patience, resignation, and dependence on God under every spiritual and temporal affliction. How sweet must the following consideration be to a distressed believer!


(1) There most certainly exists an almighty, allwise and infinitely gracious God. (2) He has given me in times past and is giving me at present (if I but had eyes to see it) many signal intimations of His love to me, both in a way of providence and grace. (3) This love of His is immutable; He never repents of it nor withdraws it. (4) Whatever comes to pass in time is the result of His will from everlasting; consequently, (5) my afflictions were a part of His original plan and are all ordered in number, weight, and measure.


(6) The very hairs of my head are everyone counted by Him, nor can a single hair fall to the ground but in consequence of His determination. Hence, (7) my distresses are not the result of chance, accident, or a fortuitous combination of circumstances, but (8) the providential accomplishment of God's purpose and (9) designed to answer some wise and gracious ends; nor (10) shall my afflications continue a moment longer than God sees meet.


(11) He who brought me to it has promised to support me under it and to carry me through it. (12) All shall, most assuredly, work together for His glory and my good: therefore, (13) "The cup which my heavenly Father hath given me to drink, shall I not drink it?" Yes, I will, in the strength He imparts, even rejoice in tribulation; and using the means of possible redress which He hath or may hereafter put into my hands, I will commit myself and the event to Him, whose purpose cannot be overthrown, whose plan cannot be disconcerted, and who, whether I am resigned or not, will still go on to work all things after the counsel of His own Will."

Jerome Zanchius (1516-1590)

"You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villany"  -- Ben Kanobi, re: Mos Eisley Spaceport

(I think that was before he witnessed the Geftakys scandal)

"Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good."

Lord help us.  Amen.

I have long since come to believe that people never mean half of what they say, and that it is best to disregard their talk and judge only their actions.
Dorothy Day, The Long Loneliness, 1952

Is anyone on here familiar with Dorothy Day or the Catholic Worker movement? if so email me!
 
                                     Nate

'The spirit of freedom is marching with rapid strides and causing tyrants to tremble.'
James Forten, African-American Revolutionary War Hero

'I would never be of service to anyone as a slave.'
Nat Turner

'You shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free.'
King Jesus

"Give me liberty...or give me death."
 -Patrick Henry

"Happy were it, if Christians, in perplexity and distress, would turn their eyes from the defects in their obedience, to the fulness of Christ, and see themselves complete in Him."

-John Flavel


"Some wish to live within the sound
of church or chapel bell,
I want to run a Rescue Shop
within a yard of hell."

-C.T. Studd

The Sound of Silence (P. Simon, 1964)

Hello darkness, my old friend,
I've come to talk with you again,
Because a vision softly creeping,
Left its seeds while I was sleeping,
And the vision that was planted in my brain
Still remains
Within the sound of silence.

In restless dreams I walked alone
Narrow streets of cobblestone,
'Neath the halo of a street lamp,
I turned my collar to the cold and damp
When my eyes were stabbed by the flash of a neon light
That split the night
And touched the sound of silence.

And in the naked light I saw
Ten thousand people, maybe more.
People talking without speaking,
People hearing without listening,
People writing songs that voices never share
And no one dare
Disturb the sound of silence.

"Fools" said I, "You do not know
Silence like a cancer grows.
Hear my words that I might teach you,
Take my arms that I might reach you."
But my words like silent raindrops fell,
And echoed
In the wells of silence

And the people bowed and prayed
To the neon god they made.
And the sign flashed out its warning,
In the words that it was forming.
And the sign said, "The words of the prophets
 are written on the subway walls
And tenement halls."
And whisper'd in the sounds of silence.

When machines and computers, profit motives and property rights, are considered more important than people, the giant triplets of racism, extreme materialism, and militarism are incapable of being conquered.

                        Martin Luther King "Beyond Vietnam" (thanks dad. and I like your quotes!)

"Many divines say that Christ did something when he died that enabled God to be just, and yet the Justifier of the ungodly. What that something is they do not tell us. They believe in an atonement made for everybody; but then, their atonement is just this. They believe that Judas was atoned for just as much as Peter; they believe that the damned in hell were as much an object of Jesus Christ’s satisfaction as the saved in heaven; and though they do not say it in proper words, yet they must mean it, for it is a fair inference, that in the case of multitudes, Christ died in vain, for he died for them all, they say; and yet so ineffectual was his dying for them, that though he died for them they are damned afterwards. Now, such an atonement I despise — I reject it."

C.H. Spurgeon

"You can't handle the truth!"

Jack Nicholson

"We are often told that we limit the atonement of Christ, because we say that Christ has not made a satisfaction for all men, or all men would be saved. Now, our reply to this is, that, on the other hand, our opponents limit it: we do not. The Arminians say, Christ died for all men. Ask them what they mean by it. Did Christ die so as to secure the salvation of all men? They say, "No, certainly not." We ask them the next question - Did Christ die so as to secure the salvation of any man in particular? They answer " No." They are obliged to admit this if they are consistent. They say "No, Christ has died that any man may be saved if" - and then follow certain conditions of salvation. We say, then, we will just go back to the old statement - Christ did not die so as beyond a doubt to secure the salvation of anybody, did he? You must say "No;" you are obliged to say so, for you believe that even after a man has been pardoned, he may yet fall from grace, and perish. Now, who is it that limits the death of Christ? Why, you. You say that Christ did not die so as to infallibly secure the salvation of anybody, We beg your pardon, when you say we limit Christ's death; we say, "No, my dear sir, it is you that do it. We say Christ so died that he infallibly secured the salvation of a multitude that no man can number, who through Christ's death not only may be saved, but are saved, must be saved, and cannot by any possibility run the hazard of being anything but saved. You are welcome to your atonement; you may keep it. We will never renounce ours for the sake of it. Now, beloved, when you hear any one laughing or jeering at a limited atonement, you may tell him this. General atonement is like a great wide bridge with only half an arch; it does not go across the stream: it only professes to go half way, it does not secure the salvation of anybody. Now, I had rather put my foot upon a bridge as narrow as Hungerford, which went all the way across, than on a bridge that was as wide as the world, if it did not go all the way across the stream."

C.H. Spurgeon

Treasonous Prayer
Jim Wallis

As long as we do not pray for our enemies, we
continue to see only our own point of view - our
own righteousness - and to ignore their
perspective. Prayer breaks down the distinctions
between us and them. To do violence to others,
you must make them enemies. Prayer, on the
other hand, makes enemies into friends.
 
When we have brought our enemies into our
hearts in prayer, it becomes difficult to maintain
the hostility necessary for violence. In bringing
them close to us, prayer even serves to protect
our enemies. Thus prayer undermines the
propaganda and policies designed to make us
hate and fear our enemies. By softening our
hearts towards our adversaries, prayer can
even become treasonous. Fervent prayer for
our enemies is a great obstacle to war and the
feelings that lead to war.

"If...you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning."     Catherine Aird

"Some people's purpose in this world is simply to serve as a warning to others." ??? ???

Anon

Brent

Brent,
That quote is from a poster from despair.com.  If you have never been to the site, you need to go there.  Very funny stuff.

Andrea Denner

"The devil has driven the pendulum far beyond its proper point of rest, and when he has carried it to the utmost length that he can, and it begins by its own weight to swing back, he probably will set in, and drive it with the utmost fury the other way; and so give us no rest; and if possible prevent our settling in a proper medium.  What a poor, blind, weak and miserable creature is man, at his best estate!  We are like poor helpless sheep; the devil is too subtle for us.  What is our strength! What is our wisdom!  How ready are we to go astray!  How easily are we drawn aside into innumerable snares, while in the meantime we are bold and confident, and doubt not but we are right and safe!  We are foolish sheep in the midst of subtle serpents and cruel wolves, and do not know it.  Oh how unfit are we to be left to ourselves!  And how much do we stand in need of the wisdom, the power, the condescension, patience, forgiveness, and gentleness of our good Shepherd! (pg. 246 - Iain Murray Jonathan Edwards, a new biography)

"who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the
salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time"   1 Peter 1 : 5  (NIV)

"I have always believed that Christ was punished instead of men. Now, if he were punished in the stead of all men, I could see no justice in God punishing men again after having punished Christ for them. I hold and believe — and, I think, on Scriptural authority, that Jesus Christ died for all those who believe or will believe; and he was punished in the stead of all those who feel their need of a Saviour, and lay hold on him. The rest reject him, despise him, sin against God, and are punished for their sins. But those who are redeemed, having been blood-bought, shall not be lost. Christ’s blood is too precious to have been shed for men who are damned. It is too awful a thing to think of the Saviour standing in a sinner’s stead, and then that sinner after all having to bear his own iniquities; I can never indulge a thought which appears to be so unrighteous to God, and so unsafe to men. All that the Saviour bought he shall have, all that his heavenly Father hath given him, he says, shall come unto him."

C.H. Spurgeon

Twenty years ago I knew everything there was to know but half of it I forgot and the other half was wrong.

"The last experience of God is frequently the greatest obstacle to the next experience of God.  We make an absolute out of it....All great spirituality is about letting go."  Richard Rohr

"Lord bring in your elect.  And Lord bring in some more."
C. Spurgeon

"A fresh encounter with God may be the new beginning you need."  :)
A Touch of His Joy
by Charles Stanley

"If we could read the secret history of our enemies we should find in each person's life sorrow and suffering enough to disarm all hostility."
                                              Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

"I do not feel any pity for Gollum. He deserves death." (Frodo)
"Deserves death! I daresay he does.  Many that live deserve death.  And some die that deserve life.  Can you give that to them?  Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice...even the wise cannot see all ends."  (Gandalf)

"Christianity preaches the unending worth of the apparently worthless and the unending worthlessness of what is apparently so valuable."  Dietrich Bonhoeffer

"Of all bad men religious bad men are the worst. Of all created beings the wickedest is one who originally stood in the immediate presence of God."

Reflections On The Psalms
C.S. Lewis

"Be courteous to all, but intimate with few; and let those few be well tried before you give them your confidence".

GEORGE WASHINGTON  1732 - 1799

"Don't insert a question mark where God has placed a period"

(church sign this past weekend)

"The quality of mercy is not strained.  
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven...
And earthly power doth then show likest God's
When mercy seasons justice."
                              William Shakespeare, from the
                             The Merchant of Venice

"Characteristic of the cult (from Hare Krishna to the "Moonies" to EST to Scientology to the Manson Family) is the dominance of the guru, or Maximum Leader, who is also the creator and ultimate interpreter of a given creed to which the acolyte must be unswervingly loyal. The major if not the only qualification for membership and advancement in the cult is absolute loyalty to and adoration of the guru, and absolute and unquestioning obedience to his commands. The lives of the members are dominated by the guru’s influence and presence. If the cult grows beyond a few members, it naturally becomes hierarchically structured, if only because the guru cannot spend his time indoctrinating and watching over every disciple. Top positions in the hierarchy are generally filled by the original handful of disciples, who come to assume these positions by virtue of their longer stint of loyal and devoted service. Sometimes the top leadership may be related to each other, a useful occurrence which can strengthen intra-cult loyalty through the familial bond.

The goals of the cult leadership are money and power. Power is achieved over the minds of the disciples through inducing them to accept without question the guru and his creed. This devotion is enforced through psychological sanctions. For once the acolyte is imbued with the view that approval of, and communication with, the guru are essential to his life, then the implicit and explicit threat of excommunication – of removal from the direct or indirect presence of the guru – creates a powerful psychological sanction for the "enforcement" of loyalty and obedience. Money flows upward from the members through the hierarchy, either in the form of volunteer labor service contributed by the members, or through cash payments."

Taken from "The Sociology of the Ayn Rand Cult" by Murray Rothbard

http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard23.html (http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard23.html)

"He who commits injustice is ever made more wretched than he who suffers it."    Plato

"The art of leadership...consists in consolidating the attention of the people against a single adversary and taking care that nothing will split up that attention."    Adolf Hitler

This is especially for gracetruth:
"The surest way to be deceived is to think oneself more clever than others.   French proverb

"Let no man deceive you with vain words."  Eph. 5:6

"Some disguised deceits counterfeit truth so perfectly that not to be taken in by them would be an error of judgment.   La Rochefoucauld

Be careful, gracetruth. If you are still defending George after what has transpired, you are in a very dangerous position. Whole assemblies have shut down, many leaders have stepped down and/or out...this is fact, not delusion. These people accepted the hard and difficult-to-swallow truth. They came face to face with their "errors of judgment" and it has changed their lives. Can you face the hard questions and the even harder answers? I hope so.
Your spiritual health depends on it.
Pat

1Co 1:11  For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brothers, by those of Fullerton, that there are contentions among you.
1Co 1:12  But I say this, that every one of you says, I am of Geftakyan, and I of Tr0ckman, and I of Zach, and I of Christ.
1Co 1:13  Is Christ divided? Was George crucified for you, or were you baptized in the name of George?

Eph 4:20  But you have not so learned Christ

Mat 16:23  for thy mind is not on the things that are of God, but on the things that are of men.

Col 3:1  If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is sitting at the right hand of God.

Eph 6:10  Finally, my brothers, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might.

WOW!  I don't think we're in the KJV anymore.

"I wouldn't join any club that would have me as a member"

--Groucho Marx

"Please cut that pizza into 4 slices 'cause I don't
think I can eat eight"

--Yogi Berra

"I have known a vast quantity of nonsense talked about bad men not looking you in the face.  Don't trust that conventional idea.  Dishonesty will stare honesty out of countenance, any day in the week, if there is anything to be got by it."   Charles Dickens

"This is the final test of a gentleman (or woman): his respect for those who can be of no possible value to him."   William Lyon Phelps  

"...those who have been playing God, manipulating situations or people, need to abdicate their man-made kingdoms--whether one individual or many persons are involved. Jesus said, 'The rulers of the Gentiles [pagans] lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them.⁹'--but His people are not to be like that.' "

--Florence Bulle, from her book, The Many Faces of Deception (p. 98)

⁹-Mt 20:25(NASB)

I should not base my conduct toward you on how valuable you are to me, nor on any intrinsic value found in our humanity, but on--HOW BELOVED YOU ARE TO  GOD!               (UNKNOWN)

Let it not be said that I have separated someone from the love of God by my actions and attitudes toward that person.    (UNKNOWN)

"There are two ways of spreading light:
  to be the candles or the mirror that reflects it."
Gerhard Tersteegen    
"A Mother's Heart"

"I am the captain of my ship. I know, because my wife,
The Admiral, told me so"

Never give a woman something that needs to be plugged in.  ;D ;D ;D
Jill (Tim Allen's "wife") on TV's Home Improvement.


Actually, this belongs on on Pat's "Women and the Lord Jesus" thread but I promised I would try to put a serious post there (for a change).  ;)

"It's what you learn after you know it all that counts."  John Wooden

"From the silence which prevails I conclude Lauderdale (or Souther!) has been making a joke".   R.B. Sheridan

       
  :) :D ;) ;D

"Educate a man and you educate an individual--educate a woman and you educate a family.  Agnes Cripps

     Testing... testing, one two three...

     Can you hear me out there?  Testing... testing...

     Hey, is this thing on?  testing...

               --al Hartman (1942-      )
               Christian in training

Don't spit in a man's face unless his moustache is on fire.

I'm so proud that I am humble enough to admit my pride.

"Dictators ride to and fro upon tigers which they dare not dismount. And the tigers are getting hungry."  Winston Churchill

I guess George's tigers were hungry too. :o

"If God's people can't behave like "Christians" in a (church) business meeting then they're just a bunch of fakes anyway."

Pastor of church in Springfield, IL
(while announcing the upcoming annual church business meeting)*



*BTW - He was emphasizing that guests could learn a lot about the church by attending the business meeting.

"They are over here because we are over there!"
   Pat Buchanan

This is dedicated to all those who are still struggling with leaving an assembly gathering.

"When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us."    Helen Keller

"Passive resistance is an all-sided sword; it can be used anyhow; it blesses him who uses it and him against whom it is used without drawing a drop of blood; it produces far-reaching results. It never rusts and cannot be stolen. Competition between passive resisters does not exhaust them. The sword of passive resistance does not require a scabbard and one cannot be forcibly dispossessed of it."    Mahatma Gandhi

With regard to Ghandi:

"India is the most conquered nation on earth.  Every major empire has rolled through India in short order, and the nation has never failed to fall quickly to an invading enemy."

anon from a history book.

I am not trying to point out the fallacy of Ghandi's quote below, as it does have merit.  I am merely trying to point out some of the consequences for following it.

Brent Tr0ckman

Gandhi's nonviolent stance was one of the forces behind Martin Luther Kings, Jr.'s nonviolent protests during the Civil Rights Movement. It has great merit, indeed.

There were also other forces at play during that time.

"Laws serve to deter crime and protect the weak from the strong in civilized society. Where there is a breakdown of law, where is the force of deterrent? Only highly civilized and moral individuals respect the rights of others. The southern brute respects only force. Nonviolence is a very potent weapon when the opponent is civilized, but nonviolence is no repellent for a sadist.

I have great respect for the pacifist, that is for the pure pacifist. I am not a pacifist and I am sure I may safely say most of my people are not. Passive resistance is a powerful weapon in gaining concessions from oppressors, but I venture to say that if Mack Parker (a black man lynched in 1959) had had an automatic shotgun at his disposal, he could have served as a great deterrent against lynching." - Robert F. Williams, Liberation Magazine (September 1959)

Robert F. Williams was a very influential black activist during the time of the Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. nonviolent protests as well as a NAACP leader.  However, Robert Williams made use of of machine guns and explosives to defend his rights.  He eventually ended up fleeing to Cuba. I believe that he died of natural causes a few years ago.

"We don't know the millionth part of one percent about anything.  We don't know what water is.  We don't know what light is.  We don't know what heat is.  We have a lot of hypotheses about these things, but that is all.  But we do not let our ignorance about these thngs deprive us of their use."
Thomas Edison
This quote was used in a lesson on prayer I attened last Sunday.
 :) :) :)

     For general consideration among all who post on the BB, beginning with moi:

          Honest criticism is hard to take, particularly from
      a relative, a friend, an acquaintance, or a stranger.
             -- Franklin P. Jones, businessman (1887-1929)

     "Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
     But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil:
     but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
     And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
     And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
     Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
     Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
     But I say unto you, Love your enemies,
     bless them that curse you,
     do good to them that hate you,
     and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
     That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven:
     for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good,
     and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
     For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye?
     do not even the publicans the same?
     And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others?
     do not even the publicans so?
     Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."  - Jesus

 


 "Never attribute to malice that which   can                      
        be adequately explained by stupidity.
                --Hanlon's Razor

from:
   A Word A Day<<<http://wordsmith.org/awad/gift.html>>>

"What one sees depends on where one sets up one's shop.  Mine is at the entrance of the empty tomb."
                                              W. Paul Jones

"Only a fool buys his own tomatoes!"   African Proverb!

"The Bible without the Holy Spirit is a sundial by moonlight."
 
"The Lord sends no one away empty except those who are full of themselves."
                                           Dwight L. Moody

"When I've heard all I need to make a decision, I don't take a vote. I make a decision."
                                         RONALD REAGAN

"Trust, but verify."

- PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN regarding how the US should treat the USSR after having signed nuclear arms treaties during the cold war.

 "By the yard it's hard, but by the inch, it's a cinch. "
                                                   

                                                   SOME CONSTRUCTION GUY

          In taking revenge a man is equal to his enemy,

     But in passing it over he is superior.

                                                                  -- Bacon

"There may be times when we are powerless to prevent injustice, but there must never be a time when we fail to protest."
               ELIE WIESEL
              Holocaust survivor and 1986 winner of the          
          Nobel Peace Prize

 "You can't control the wind, but you can adjust your sails"

                                                                      Ripples

In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

In the old days villains had moustaches and kicked the dog. Audiences are smarter today. They don't want their villain to be thrown at them with green limelight on his face. They want an ordinary human being with failings.





What is it you want George to be?  How much of a villain is he?  

"America's health care system is second only to Japan... Canada, Sweden, Great Britain, ... well all of Europe. But you can thank your lucky stars we don't live in Paraguay!"  - Homer Simpson

Homer (to brain): "Uh, oh. It's time you told Marge your secret."
Homer : "Marge, I ate those fancy soaps you bought for the bathroom."
Marge : "Oh, my gosh!"
Brain : "No, the other secret."

And my all time favorite: "No Tv and beer make Homer something something"
Who can finish this quotation for me? I'll send you a free blockbuster rental certificate if you can. (not really)

          Whatever you are, be a good one.

                                        Abraham Lincoln

     It is paradoxical that many educators and parents still differentiate between a time for learning and a time for play without seeing the vital connection between them.

            --Leo Buscaglia, author (1924-1998)

    Compare and Contrast:

      It is better that ten guilty persons escape than one innocent suffer.
                                   --William Blackstone (1723-1780), English jurist

       God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them...  For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin;  that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
                                     Ephesians 5:19, 21

"There's a difference between keeping an open mind and believing something to be true simply because you want it to be."  - the Vulcan lady from Star Trek Enterprise.

"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter."
-Martin Luther King Jr.

Another MLK Jr. goodie:
"Don't look down on someone unless you're willing to help him up."

     Kindness is in our power, even when fondness is not.    

            --Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784)

"Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle."
                                             Philo of Alexandria

 8) 8) 8) 8) " " THE LEADER IS GOOD, THE LEADER IS GREAT! WE SURRENDER OUR WILL AS OF THIS DATE! "...................... The Simpson T.V cartoon  The episode when the family was in a cult.

"Any man worth his salt will stick up for what he believes right, but it takes a slightly better man to acknowledge instantly and without reservation that he is in error."
-Andrew Jackson

Experience is the worst teacher.  It gives the test first and the instruction afterwards.
                                   -- ???

Military justice is to justice what military music is to music.
                                   -- Groucho Marx

The hardest thing in the world to understand is the income tax.
                                   -- Albert Einstein

A year spent in artificial intelligence is enough to make one believe in God.
                                   -- ???

Take my word for it, the silliest woman can manage a clever man, but it needs a very clever woman to manage a fool.
                                   -- Kipling

Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time to reform.
                                   -- Mark Twain

Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen.
                                   -- Albert Einstein

Whenever people agree with me, I always feel I must be wrong.
                                   -- Oscar Wilde

The illegal we do immediately.  The unconstitutional takes a bit longer.
                                   -- Henry Kissinger

Be careful of reading health books, you might die of a misprint.
                                   -- Mark Twain

Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.
                                   -- Abraham Lincoln

A countryman between two lawyers is like a fish between two cats.
                                   -- Ben Franklin

I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.
                                   -- Albert Einstein

Stephen,

     Thank you for that delightful & thought provoking collection...

     This one just came to me yesterday:

     A large hat size and a high forehead do not compensate for a thick skull and a weak mind.

"I quite agree with you," said the Duchess; "and the moral of that is -- 'Be what you would seem to be' -- or, if you'd like it put more simply -- 'Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise.'"
                                  -- Lewis Carrol, "Alice in Wonderland"


Albert Einstein, when asked to describe radio, replied: "You see, wire telegraph is a kind of a very, very long cat.  You pull his tail in New York and his head is meowing in Los Angeles.  Do you understand this?  And radio operates exactly the same way: you send signals here, they receive them there.  The only difference is that there is no cat."


                A Plan for the Improvement of English Spelling
                                  by Mark Twain

For example, in Year 1 that useless letter "c" would be dropped to be replased either by "k" or "s", and likewise "x" would no longer be part of the alphabet.  The only kase in which "c" would be retained would be the "ch" formation, which will be dealt with later.  Year 2 might reform "w" spelling, so that "which" and "one" would take the same konsonant, wile Year 3 might well abolish "y" replasing it with "i" and Iear 4 might fiks the "g/j" anomali wonse and for all.

Jenerally, then, the improvement would kontinue iear bi iear with Iear 5 doing awai with useless double konsonants, and Iears 6 - 12 or so modifaiing vowlz and the rimeining voist and unvoist konsonants.  Bai Iear 15 or sou, it wud fainali bi posibl tu meik ius ov thi ridandant letez "c", "x" and "y" -- bai now jast a memori in the maindz ov ould doderez -- tu riplais "ch", "sh" and "th" rispektivli.

Fainali, yen, aafte sam 20 iers ov oryogrefkl riform, wi wud hev a lojikl, kohirnt speling in ius yrewawt ye Inglix-spiking werld.

I once saw a sign on a dairy that said, "Our cows are outstanding in their field."

Another sign I saw in a Jewish deli said, "Our tongue is so fresh it speaks for itself."

I saw a sign outside an Econo-lube that said

"We'll shock, tire and brake you"

Preach the Gospel at all times and, when necessary, use words.

Francis of Assisi

MGov, I LOVE YOU!

En boca cerrada no entran moscas.

(Flies don't enter a closed mouth.)

"Good judgement comes from years of experience.  Unfortunately, experience often comes from years of bad judgement."

"The ealy bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese."

"There is no such thing as a stupid question, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."

Yesli bih vo rtu rosli bobih, to bihl bih nye rot a ogorod.

(If beans were to grow in the mouth, then it would be, not a mouth, but a vegetable garden.)

"Be careful that nobody spoils your faith through intellectualism or high-sounding nonsense."

Col. 2:8, J. B. Phillips translation

---

"He who can no longer listen to his brother will soon be no longer listening to God either, ... Christians have forgotten that the ministry of listening has been committed to them by Him who is Himself the great listener and whose work they should share."

Dietrich Bonhoeffer

---

Our life is like the dial of a clock
The hands are God's hands passing o'er and o'er,
The short hand is the hand of Discipline;
The long, the Hand of Mercy evermore.

Slowly and surely discipline must pass,
And God speaks at each stroke His Word of Grace,
But ever on the hand of mercy moves,
With blessing sixty-fold the trials efface.

Each moment counts a blessing from our God,
Each hour a lesson in the school of love,
Both hands are fastened to a pivot sure,
That great unchanging heart of God above.
S.M. Zwener (Dynamic Spiritual Leadership)

 " If you never take any shots, you never will score any Goals"
 Wayne Gretzky

Islam is a religion in which God requires you to send your son to die for him.
Christianity is a faith in which God sent his Son to die for you.
                                   -- John Ashcroft, Attorney General of the United States

The danger with us is that we want to water down the things that Jesus says and make them mean something in accordance with common sense;  if it were only common sense, it was not worthwhile for Him to say it.  The things Jesus says... are supernatural revelations.

     Oswald Chambers--  My Utmost for His Highest

" A true and safe leader is likely to be one who has not desired to lead, but is forced into a position of leadership by inward pressure of the Holy Spirit and the press of external situation."
                                 A.W. Tozer

"Sometimes the wisest tactic is to get out of the Holy Spirits's way."
                         Judith Couchman

"People ask the difference between a leader and a boss...
The leader works in the open, and the boss in covert.  The leader leads, and the boss drives."

-Theodore Roosevelt

I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my telephone.
My wish has come true.  I no longer know how to use my telephone.
                    -- Bjarne Stroustrup, computer science professor, designer of C++ programming language (1950- )

"Let Jesus use you without consulting you."
                              Mother Teresa

If you don't like the taco, try the enchilada.  
--Taco Bell

"It's not denial.  I'm just very selective about what I accept as reality."
                                   -- Calvin ("Calvin and Hobbes")

Of all things, good sense is the most fairly distributed: everyone thinks he is so well supplied with it that even those who are the hardest to satisfy in every other respect never desire more of it than they already have.
                                   -- Descartes, René (1596-1650)

1.Can you cry under water?
2.How important does a person have to be before he is considered assassinated, instead of just murdered?
3 If money doesn't grow on tree$, then why do bank$ have branches$?
4.Since bread is square, then why is sandwich meat round?
5.Why do you have to "put your two cents in"...but it's only a "penny for your thoughts"? Where's that extra penny going to?
6 Once you're in heaven, do you get stuck wearing the clothes you were buried in, for eternity?
7.Why does a round pizza come in a square box?
8.What did cured ham actually have?
9.How is it that we put man on the moon before we figured out it would be a good idea to put wheels on luggage?
10.Why is it that people say they "slept like a baby" when babies wake up like every two hours?
11.If a deaf person has to go to court, is it still called a hearing?
12.If you drink Pepsi at work in the Coke factory, will they fire you?
13.Why are you IN a movie, but you're ON TV?
14.Why do people pay to go up tall buildings and then put money in binoculars to look at things on the ground?
15.How come we choose from just two people for President and fifty for Miss America?
16.Why do doctors leave the room while you change? They're going to see you naked anyway.
17.If a 911 operator has a heart attack, whom does he/she call?

Marcia,

This is Caryl Maddux posting for her husband Tom.

Tom was reading your list and digging through books trying to find the answers.  When he got to number 9 he began alternatively laughing and crying and singing "SUPERCALIFRAGILISTICEXBIALIDOCIOUS" backwards.

I had to call the county to come and take him away.

Caryl Maddux  ;)

So let me get this straight.
Brent Tr0ckman: pseudo-intellectual.  :-\
Verne Carty: probable intellectual.  ;)
Thomas Maddux: Verifiable intellectual. :)

Caryl Maddux: GENIUS (she does know how to spell supercalifragilis . . . . whatever).

Conclusion: We need more input from Mrs. Maddux. ;D ;D ;D

But, it isn't spelled correctly.

You're right. I didn't catch it.

OK, Dave that means you take the Genius title from Mrs. M! :)

S

"I'm not afraid to die, I just don't want to be there"
Woody Allen

" My Wife confessed  that she would never  consider commiting adultery against me, murder maybe, but never adultery"
                                   Billy Graham

I do not think that all who choose wrong roads perish; but their rescue consists in being put back on the right road.  A wrong sum can be put right: but only by going back till you find the error and working it afresh from that point, never by simply going on.

                     C. S. Lewis, in his preface to The Great Divorce

"What is the extent of Christ’s death? The nature of a ransom is such that when paid and accepted it automatically frees the person for whom it was intended. Justice demands that those for whom the ransom is paid shall be freed from any further obligation; it cannot demand the penalty twice.

Some teach that Christ died conditionally for all but absolutely for none. This is a God-dishonoring view of redemption; it makes Christ the purchaser of a redemption that is left to the power of man to render it effectual. By the obedience of Christ, the gift of grace abounds to many; and by this One, Jesus Christ, righteousness reigns (Rom. 5:15-19). Man, therefore, has no part in this righteousness which reigns in life by One, Jesus Christ; it is not by two, Christ and man. Christ’s suretyship and sufferings are of the same extent; His sacrifice and intercession are related to the same persons.

The Father’s election, the Son’s redemption, and the Spirit’s regeneration are all of equal extent. Universal redemption would mean universal salvation. The fact is the Son redeems no more than the Father elects, and the Spirit regenerates no more than the Son redeems. “...the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many” (Matt. 20:28).

Many religionists are horrified by the term “limited redemption.” However, everyone limits redemption. It is limited either in its extent or in its quality. Those who say Christ died for every one without exception limit its quality (character), since the Bible states that many have and will die in their sins. The extent is limited by those who have a Biblical view of redemption. They dare not limit its character, but do admit that many die without experiencing salvation. Since every one limits redemption, the instructed Christian limits its extent and would never limit its character."

from Chapter 20 of "The Impeccable Christ" by W.E Best
http://www.webbmt.org/EngHTML2/Studies%20In%20The%20Person%20And%20Work%20of%20Jesus%20Christ.htm

Thanks so much for sharing this H, my old friend. This work is in my view  peerless among those produced on Christology. What a glorious Saviour He is!!!!
Verne
p.s I must say that this subject matter is strong wine for those of full age as it were...don't be too discouraged by some that might find it difficult to imbibe... :)

Dear H,

Your quotation from brother Best says,

"Some teach that Christ died conditionally for all but absolutely for none. This is a God-dishonoring view of redemption; it makes Christ the purchaser of a redemption that is left to the power of man to render it effectual. "

This is a common argument used by some folks of Calvinist persuasion to argue against such verses as I John 2:2.

It is actually an informal logical fallacy called argumentum ad misericordium.  This simply means that Best is using language calculated to arouse negative feelings in the hearers.  It offers no information about what God can or cannot do.

Seems to me that God can set up the terms of his dealings with men in whatever way he wishes.  After all, the Calvinists have a lot to say about God's "soveriegn majesty"...or maybe that His "majestic sovereignty".  

God bless,

Thomas Maddux
Virulant Dog 1st Class

Say H,

By the way, the first time I ever heard of this teaching was in the 70's.  One Sunday morning G Geftakys was preaching on the death of Christ.

He yelled, "Not one drop of that precious blood fell to the ground in vain!"

Although I did not know that name of the fallacy at the time, I remember that I thought, "that is more about his feelings than about Christ's blood".

Thomas Maddux
Virulant Dog 1st Class

The Bible itself offers far more cogent commentary on whether 1 John 2:2 teaches universalism. In fariness to H, he has done a pretty decent job elsewhere giving exegetcial and hermeneutical reasons why this is not necessarily the case Tom. eg

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Few who make the argument you do would argue that Peter is teaching universalism in the above verse.
Best's contention that a  redemption that is conditional for all but absolute for none is dishonoring to God has to do with far more than just an appeal to emotion. It has to do with the fundamental question of whether the atonement was efficacious enough to deal with the sin of unbelief- that is after-all the sin that sends men to hell. Think about it...

Verne

 Isaiah 29
20  For the terrible one is brought to nought, and the scorner is consumed, and all that watch for iniquity are cut off:
21  That make a man an offender for a word, and lay a snare for him that reproveth in the gate, and turn aside the just for a thing of nought.
22  Therefore thus saith the LORD, who redeemed Abraham, concerning the house of Jacob, Jacob shall not now be ashamed, neither shall his face now wax pale.
23  But when he seeth his children, the work of mine hands, in the midst of him, they shall sanctify my name, and sanctify the Holy One of Jacob, and shall fear the God of Israel.
24  They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine.

     "In discussing the design or extent of the atonement, there are three key doctrinal terms which are related to the priestly sacrifice of Christ on earth, that is, to the finished work of Christ. These terms are redemption, propitiation and reconciliation. Evangelical Arminians and Calvinistic "four point" universalists or modified Calvinists hold that there is a universal design of the atonement which provides salvation for all mankind without exception or which places all of Adam's posterity in a savable state. They contend that there is a twofold application of these three doctrinal terms — an actual application for those who believe, a provisional application for those who die in unbelief. The historic "five point" or consistent Calvinist asserts that these terms have no substitutionary reference with respect to the non-elect. In contrast to the former who hold to an indefinite atonement, the consistent Calvinist, who holds to a definite atonement, sees no purpose, benefit or comfort in a redemption that does not redeem, a propitiation that does not propitiate or a reconciliation that does not reconcile, which would be the case if these terms were applicable to the non-elect.
     For those who have wrestled with the extent of the atonement, they are acutely aware that there are three problem verses which the five point Calvinist must scripturally answer if he is to consistently sustain a biblical position before the modified Calvinist that the saving design of the atonement is intended by the triune God only for the elect. These verses are II Peter 2:1, which pertains to redemption; I John 2:2, which pertains to propitiation; and II Corinthians 5:19, which pertains to reconciliation. If the particular redemptionist can scripturally establish in any of these verses that God's design of the atonement does not extend to the non-elect, then the theological case for the unlimited redemptionist crumples. In summary, if universal propitiation in I John 2:2 cannot be biblically established, then what purpose does a universal redemption in II Peter 2:1 or a universal reconciliation in II Corinthians 5:19 serve? Can it be true that God the Son redeemed the non-elect for whom God the Father's wrath will never be propitiated (satisfied or appeased) by virtue of Christ's death or that God the Father has been reconciled by virtue of Christ's death to the non-elect upon whom His condemning wrath eternally abides (John 3:36)?"

Taken from "PROPITIATION IN I JOHN 2:2 (A Doctrinal Study on the Extent of the Atonement)" by  Dr. Gary D. Long
http://www.the-highway.com/1Jh2.2.html

P.S. Dear Tom, I would like to challenge you to click on the above link and read the whole article, and then point out any weaknesses you see in his arguments. (But maybe start a new thread rather than continuing on this one.)

Thank you H. This is a tour 'de force!
Verne

H,

Long wrote,

" Can it be true that God the Son redeemed the non-elect for whom God the Father's wrath will never be propitiated (satisfied or appeased) by virtue of Christ's death or that God the Father has been reconciled by virtue of Christ's death to the non-elect upon whom His condemning wrath eternally abides (John 3:36)?"

I'll have to get back to you on your linked artcile later, but in case you didn't notice, Long does exactly the same thing that best does.  It is another example of a logical fallacy.

When Long says "can it be true" what he really means is something like, "since God would never do that, it can't be true."  

This is the fallacy of petitio principii or "begging the question".  It means that the person arguing a point has sneaked what he is trying to prove, (his point),  into his premesis.

What Long is saying is "since God would never do that, we know that he would never do that".  

If at any point a fallacy occurs in a logical chain...the conclusion is invalidated.   Now, the conclusion could possible by true for another reason, but the argument in which the fallacy ocurred is invalid.

I have a lot more to say about Old John C and his ideas, but they will have to wait.

God bless,
Thomas Maddux
Virulent Dog 1st Class

On the contrary, he is inviting us to examine such a proposition on its merits. Furthermore the "since God would never do that, it can't be true"  statement is not really that far-fetched a logical vehicle for arguing a point and most certainly not necessarily always a logical fallacy as you suggest. If any proposition involves God telling a lie, or denying Himself, for example, the above statement would be clearly valid.  :)


I take it then Tom that the proposition that:

...God the Son redeemed the non-elect for whom God the Father's wrath will never be propitiated (satisfied or appeased) by virtue of Christ's death  AND that God the Father has been reconciled by virtue of Christ's death to the non-elect upon whom His condemning wrath eternally abides (John 3:36)".

you consider to be true? You must if you disagree with Lang.

It seems to me that you are focusing on how the argument is being made and not what is being said.
If you agree with the above proposition as stated why don't you simply say so instead of attacking the style in which the argument is presented? The proposition is either true or false. Make your case either way... :)
A defense of the above proposition as true, presents formidable logical and theological obstacles ergo the interrogative "could it be true?". Simply put, Long is saying if it could, go ahead and prove it to me. I agree that the way he frames the issue suggests that he considers the fallacy of the proposition to be self-evident and certainly not because he is begging the question. The man was a very able thinker! We would of course have to follow his development of his position. It would be a good excercise to take it apart piece  by piece... :)
Verne

Verne,

You are correct in stating that Long is appealing to what he considers to be self evident truth in his argument.  The problem is that he hasn't demonstrated that it is self evident.  Therefore his argument DOES beg the question.

A self evident truth is a proposition who's opposite is inconceivable.  For example "All circles are round".  If a circle had any other shape, it wouldn't be a circle at all.  It would be something else.  Therefore the proposition, "all circles are round" is self evident.
(I wonder if the proposition, "George G. is a nice man" is self evident?  Is its opposite inconceivable?)   ;)

Long is arguing on the basis of two things; The Calvinist teachings on election, and the forensic, (legal) theory of the atonement.

However, there are other theories concerning the atonement.  For example the satisfaction theory.

The Greek Orthodox have another, very ancient, theory of how the atonement works but I can't think of the name for it right now.

So, Long's question is referring the reader to a "truth" which is disputed.  Therefore, it hasn't been established as self evident.  

I will go to another post to describe some problems I see with Calvinism.

God bless,
Thomas Maddux
Virulent Dog 1st Class

Verne,

Here are some thoughts on Calvinism.

The fundamental problem I have with Johnny C and friends is that they pontificate at great length about things that no man can know.  They seem to think that they do, in fact, understand that which cannot be understood.

Let's look, for example, at their ideas on election.  They claim that God does not take into account what people do in electing them.

Now, notice I said what people do, not what they will do.

That is because God has revealed Himself as an omnicient, omnipresent being.  He does not exist in the time plane of the universe.  He is transcendant over all space, matter, energy and time.  All time is present to Him.  He was, is, and will be...from OUR perspective...but He is all these things at once!  So He knows all things, as present.

Now, according to Calvinists, He does not take into account the actions of people when He elects.  First of all, remember that I said elects, not elected.  To us, it is elected. Because we live in linear time.
But, to God, He elects, because all time is present to Him.

Now, how does God's "time" if such a concept even applies to God, inersect with ours?

NO ONE KNOWS!

We have pretty good evidence that our universe was created with 9 spatial dimensions and one of time.
In order to create something so complex, God has to be even more complex.

Now, how much more?  NO ONE KNOWS!   Therefore any theory founded in a supposed understanding God's mind and ways is stumbling out of  the starting gate.

Why do I believe we don't know God's ways?  The Bible very clearly says so!

Romans 11:33 "Oh, the depth of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how UNSEARCHEABLE are His judgements and UNFATHOMABLE His ways."

Calvinistic ideas about election are based on an "understanding" of God's unfathomable ways.

Isaiah 55:9.  "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts higher than your thoughts."

We don't understand how God thinks.

Deuteronomy 29:29 "The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children."

We understand some of what has been revealed to us, but we don't even have absolute knowledge of that!  In addition, there is a realm of knowledge that is "secret" from our viewpoint.

Now, I am well aware that many Calvinists would take this as a challenge and weigh in with tome after tome of arguments.

So, I just hold up a question to be answered first.

How does a being that is all-knowing, all-present, all-powerful, all time transcending, and all-creating, think and do things?

If you don't know the answer to that question, you really don't have much to say about issues that fall into that category.

When I say "you" Verne, I don't mean you personally.  I mean anyone that attempts to expound these subjects.

So, I remain very skeptical of anyone of any theological persuasion who claims to understand what divine revelation clearly states is not understandable.

God bless,
Thomas Maddux

Virulent Dog 1st Class (a term used for people like me by John Calvin. Well, I did promote myself to first class.  I got tired of being just a run-of-th-mill virulent dog.)

I hope we can move this to new thread like H suggests. I have never subscribed to any system of "name" philosophy  Tom Calvinistic or Armenian. The best I can do is look at the propositions  of each and see whether my feeble mind can establish whether or not it comports with Scripture. Take your statement above for example. I did not know that it was in particular a tenet of Calvinism. I can however look at my Bible and see if there is anything there that comments on the stated proposition. I then look at the book of Romans that seems to indeed speak quite pointedly to what you have presented as an example. I guess I am just too simple to do anything but read and believe.

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.  

Unless I completely miss Paul's meaning here Tom, the truth of the proposition you presented is not left to our speculation but is explicitly stated here.
I agree that there are depths that we cannot know. In fact I think this is the key to understanding these kinds of debates. We are given to an either or mentality when the fact is that both sovreignty and accountability are taught by God's Word. The imagined antagonism is entirely man- made and due to mortal limitations. Good points though Tom.
Verne
p.s Virulent??!! I have been called similar things but Calvin could not have had you in mind my friend... :)

1.Without knowledge of self there is no knowledge of God

Our wisdom, in so far as it ought to be deemed true and solid Wisdom, consists almost entirely of two parts: the knowledge of God and of ourselves. But as these are connected together by many ties, it is not easy to determine which of the two precedes and gives birth to the other. For, in the first place, no man can survey himself without forthwith turning his thoughts towards the God in whom he lives and moves; because it is perfectly obvious, that the endowments which we possess cannot possibly be from ourselves; nay, that our very being is nothing else than subsistence in God alone. In the second place, those blessings which unceasingly distil to us from heaven, are like streams conducting us to the fountain. Here, again, the infinitude of good which resides in God becomes more apparent from our poverty. In particular, the miserable ruin into which the revolt of the first man has plunged us, compels us to turn our eyes upwards; not only that while hungry and famishing we may thence ask what we want, but being aroused by fear may learn humility. For as there exists in man something like a world of misery, and ever since we were stript of the divine attire our naked shame discloses an immense series of disgraceful properties every man, being stung by the consciousness of his own unhappiness, in this way necessarily obtains at least some knowledge of God. Thus, our feeling of ignorance, vanity, want, weakness, in short, depravity and corruption, reminds us, that in the Lord, and none but He, dwell the true light of wisdom, solid virtue, exuberant goodness. We are accordingly urged by our own evil things to consider the good things of God; and, indeed, we cannot aspire to Him in earnest until we have begun to be displeased with ourselves. For what man is not disposed to rest in himself? Who, in fact, does not thus rest, so long as he is unknown to himself; that is, so long as he is contented with his own endowments, and unconscious or unmindful of his misery? Every person, therefore, on coming to the knowledge of himself, is not only urged to seek God, but is also led as by the hand to find him.

2.Without knowledge of God there is no knowledge of self

On the other hand, it is evident that man never attains to a true self-knowledge until he have previously contemplated the face of God, and come down after such contemplation to look into himself. For (such is our innate pride) we always seem to ourselves just, and upright, and wise, and holy, until we are convinced, by clear evidence, of our injustice, vileness, folly, and impurity. Convinced, however, we are not, if we look to ourselves only, and not to the Lord also - He being the only standard by the application of which this conviction can be produced. For, since we are all naturally prone to hypocrisy, any empty semblance of righteousness is quite enough to satisfy us instead of righteousness itself. And since nothing appears within us or around us that is not tainted with very great impurity, so long as we keep our mind within the confines of human pollution, anything which is in some small degree less defiled delights us as if it were most pure just as an eye, to which nothing but black had been previously presented, deems an object of a whitish, or even of a brownish hue, to be perfectly white. Nay, the bodily sense may furnish a still stronger illustration of the extent to which we are deluded in estimating the powers of the mind. If, at mid-day, we either look down to the ground, or on the surrounding objects which lie open to our view, we think ourselves endued with a very strong and piercing eyesight; but when we look up to the sun, and gaze at it unveiled, the sight which did excellently well for the earth is instantly so dazzled and confounded by the refulgence, as to oblige us to confess that our acuteness in discerning terrestrial objects is mere dimness when applied to the sun. Thus too, it happens in estimating our spiritual qualities. So long as we do not look beyond the earth, we are quite pleased with our own righteousness, wisdom, and virtue; we address ourselves in the most flattering terms, and seem only less than demigods. But should we once begin to raise our thoughts to God, and reflect what kind of Being he is, and how absolute the perfection of that righteousness, and wisdom, and virtue, to which, as a standard, we are bound to be conformed, what formerly delighted us by its false show of righteousness will become polluted with the greatest iniquity; what strangely imposed upon us under the name of wisdom will disgust by its extreme folly; and what presented the appearance of virtuous energy will be condemned as the most miserable impotence. So far are those qualities in us, which seem most perfect, from corresponding to the divine purity.

John Calvin (in Book 1, Chapter 1 of "Institutes of the Christian Religion")
http://www.smartlink.net/~douglas/calvin/bk1ch01.html

P.S. This thread is called "Quotes to Ponder". I am simply posting this here as a quote to ponder. I suggest that those who want to discuss/debate Calvin or Calvinism do so on the "Calvin and Calvinism" thread in the Bible section of the Board. I will repost this quote there to make it easier for those who want to respond to quote it.

Verne me lad,

You said,
"I guess I am just too simple to do anything but read and believe.

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.  

Unless I completely miss Paul's meaning here Tom, the truth of the proposition you presented is not left to our speculation but is explicitly stated here."

You have the believing part just fine, its the reading part that needs a little work.

1. This passage is dealing with national histories and peoples, not individuals.

In Romans 9 Paul talks about the Jews, the Gentiles, Jacob and Esau, and Pharaoh.

2. Well, aren't those guys individuals?

Check your references.  Verse 12 quotes Genesis 25:23.

That verse says,
"The Lord said to her, Two NATIONS are in your womb, And two PEOPLES are separated from your body; and one PEOPLE shall be stronger than the other; and the older shall serve the younger.

Now,  as far as I remember the Bible doesn't mention any acts of service to Jacob by Esau.

However, David conquered Edom, (Esau's descendants) and made them a tributary state to the United Kingdom.  They rebelled after the division into Israel and Judah.

They were an idolatrous, wicked people.  They stabbed Judah in the back, (read Obadiah) and were cursed by God.

2. Now as to the "Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated" verse, that comes from Malachi 1:2 which was written in the 5th century BC.  That was AFTER all the above events happened.

3. What about Pharaoh?  God hardened him didn't He?

Check Exodus 10:1-2.

"The the Lord said to Moses, "God to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants that I may perform these signs of Mine among them,
and that you may tell in the hearing of your son and of your grandson, how I made a mockery of the Egyptians and how I performed My signs among them, that you may know that I am the Lord."

Pharaoh, was the man in the saddle, but the nation (and its gods) was the purpose.

By the way, to be pharaoh, you first had to commit all the abominations of Romans 1, PLUS claim to be the son of Ra.

That was Pharaoh's spiritual condition BEFORE he was hardened by God.

Notice also that individual Egyptians could escape the judgements if they feared Yahweh.  Gen. 9:18-21.

Verne, do not misunderstand me.  I am not denying divine election and predestination.  

What I am saying is that NO MAN understands what goes on in God's mind, therefore we don't know what he thinks about when he does things.

God bless,
Thomas Maddux
Virulent Dog 1st class-with bronze leaf.

1. The law of the Lord is perfect. It is perfectly free from all corruption, perfectly filled with all good, and perfectly fitted for the end for which it is designed; and it will make the man of God perfect, 2Ti 3:17. Nothing is to be added to it nor taken from it. It is of use to convert the soul, to bring us back to ourselves, to our God, to our duty; for it shows us our sinfulness and misery in our departures from God and the indispensable necessity of our return to him.

Matthew Henry (1662 - 1714)
(from Matthew Henry’s Commentary on the Whole Bible, Psalm 19:7)

2. The testimony of the Lord (which witnesses for him to us) is sure, incontestably and inviolably sure, what we may give credit to, may rely upon, and may be confident it will not deceive us. It is a sure discovery of the divine truth, a sure direction in the way of duty. It is a sure foundation of living comforts and a sure foundation of lasting hopes. It is of use to make us wise, wise to salvation, 2 Tim. 3:15. It will give us an insight into things divine and a foresight of things to come. It will employ us in the best work and secure to us our true interests. It will make even the simple (poor contrivers as they may be for the present world) wise for their souls and eternity. Those that are humbly simple, sensible of their own folly and willing to be taught, shall be made wise by the word of God, Ps. 25:9.

Matthew Henry (1662 - 1714)
(from Matthew Henry’s Commentary on the Whole Bible, Psalm 19:7)

3. The statutes of the Lord (enacted by his authority, and binding on all wherever they come) are right, exactly agreeing with the eternal rules and principles of good and evil, that is, with the right reason of man and the right counsels of God. All God’s precepts, concerning all things, are right (Ps. 119:128), just as they should be; and they will set us to rights if we receive them and submit to them; and, because they are right, they rejoice the heart. The law, as we see it in the hands of Christ, gives cause for joy; and, when it is written in our hearts, it lays a foundation for everlasting joy, by restoring us to our right mind.

Matthew Henry (1662 - 1714)
(from Matthew Henry’s Commentary on the Whole Bible, Psalm 19:8)

4. The commandment of the Lord is pure; it is clear, without darkness; it is clean, without dross and defilement. It is itself purified from all alloy, and is purifying to those that receive and embrace it. It is the ordinary means which the Spirit uses in enlightening the eyes; it brings us to a sight and sense of our sin and misery, and directs us in the way of duty.

Matthew Henry (1662 - 1714)
(from Matthew Henry’s Commentary on the Whole Bible, Psalm 19:8)

From Your God is Too Small by J. B. Phillips:

"Now if it is true that God is both Truth and Love it will readily be seen that the greatest sins will be unreality, hypocrisy, deceit, lying, or whatever else we choose to call sins against truth, and self-love, which makes fellowship with other people and their proper treatment impossible.  Forgiveness must then consist in a restoration to Reality, i.e. Truth and Love."

From a book about sayings on church signs:

"Lord, make me the kind of man my dog thinks I am."

5. The fear of the Lord (true religion and godliness prescribed in the word, reigning in the heart, and practised in the life) is clean, clean itself, and will make us clean (Joh_15:3); it will cleanse our way, Psa_119:9. And it endureth for ever; it is of perpetual obligation and can never be repealed. The ceremonial law is long since done away, but the law concerning the fear of God is ever the same. Time will not alter the nature of moral good and evil.

Matthew Henry (1662 - 1714)
(from Matthew Henry’s Commentary on the Whole Bible, Psalm 19:9)

6. The judgments of the Lord (all his precepts, which are framed in infinite wisdom) are true; they are grounded upon the most sacred and unquestionable truths; they are righteous, all consonant to natural equity; and they are so altogether: there is no unrighteousness in any of them, but they are all of a piece.

Matthew Henry (1662 - 1714)
(from Matthew Henry’s Commentary on the Whole Bible, Psalm 19:9)

And now for a quote that is quite different from the ones that I have previously posted:

"If you're following the news, you know that the major religions differ in their interpretation of the holy books. For example, one way to interpret God's will is that you should love your neighbor. An alternate reading of the holy books might lead you to rig a donkey cart with small mortar rockets and aim it at a hotel full of infidels."

                          Scott Adams (in "Dilbert Newsletter 52.0")

During the famous Galileo episode with the four cardinals of the Established Roman Catholic Church the following occurred. The cardinals believed in the mistaken world view generally and dogmatically held by the Establishment of those times. Their mistaken view was not based on false facts so much as on false interpretation of the facts. Galileo's instruments showed the facts in such a new light that Galileo invited the cardinals just to take a look at the four moons of Jupiter through his telescope and convince themselves.

If those cardinals had taken that peep at the four moons of Jupiter they would have had to modify all their beliefs about the nature of reality and the universe. So they took the obvious way out of the dilemma. They refused firmly to soil themselves and their eyes by looking through the infernal telescope. They remained blind to the new truth, simply because they refused to see and to recognise new evidence.

    ---- A.E. Wilder Smith - God: To be or not to be? - Epilogue pg 111

After the reading of Scripture, which I strenuously inculcate, and more than any other ... I recommend that the Commentaries of Calvin be read ...For I affirm that in the interpretation of the Scriptures Calvin is incomparable, and that his Commentaries are more to be valued than anything that is handed down to us in the writings of the Fathers -- so much that I concede to him a certain spirit of prophecy in which he stands distinguished above others, above most, indeed, above all. --

Jacobus Arminius (c.1559-1609)

H,

Arminius was trained as a Calvinist under Beza at Geneva.  However, he also was widely read and continued his studies after leaving Geneva. At the time of his death he was a professor of theology at Leiden University, a Calvinist institution.

 Apparently, he read the works of Luis Molina, since his teachings are very similar.  By the time of his death in 1609 he no longer agreed with Calvin on the issue of predestination.

So, Verne and H, there is even hope for you guys!   ;)

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

Calvin's Institutes, in spite of its imperfections, is, on the whole, one of the noblest edifices ever erected by the mind of man, and one of the mightiest codes of moral law which ever guided him. -- Francois Pierre Guizot

He that will not honor the memory, and respect the influence of Calvin, knows but little of the origin of American independence. -- George Bancroft

"Faith, therefore, from its beginning to its perfection is the gift of God. And that this gift is bestowed on some and not on others, who will deny but he who would fight against the most manifest testimonies of the Scripture? But why faith is not given to all ought not to concern the believer, who knows that all men by the sin of one came into most just condemnation. But why God delivers one from condemnation and not another belongs to His inscrutable judgments. And 'His ways are past finding out.' And if it be investigated and inquired how it is that each receiver of faith is deemed of God worthy to receive such a gift, there are not wanting those who will say, 'It is by their human will.' But we say that it is by grace, or Divine predestination."

                  Augustine (354-420)

H,

Since you don't give the source of this quote, I would guess that this is an example of the type of statements that Augustine made later in life when he was disputing with the Pelagians.

The problem with it is that he doesn't give any reason why he believes that faith is a gift of God.

Reformed theologians frequently quote Augustine as if that is the final word on the subject.  However, one must keep in mind that Augustine's logic led him to Romanism.  He believed it was ok to use force to compel religious faith!

The quote you have given merely states Augustine's opinion.  If  "Augustine said so" is enough to establish an ideas correctness, we'll see you at Mass this Sunday.

Thomas Maddux

"All the streams of mercy that flow down to us must be traced up to the fountain of God’s lovingkindness. It is not owing to any merit of ours, but purely to his mercy, and the peculiar favour he bears to his people. This therefore we must think of with delight, think of frequently and fixedly. What subject can we dwell upon more noble, more pleasant, more profitable?"

Matthew Henry (1662 - 1714)
(from Matthew Henry’s Commentary on the Whole Bible, Psalm 48)

H,

Oh, yes...a lovely thought.  However notice that it contains the phrase, "and the peculiar favour he bears to his people."


There's the rub.  His lovingkindness is only for "his people".   Apparently, according to Johnny C. and his cohorts, God could care less about all the infants that he fries eternally for his "good pleasure".  

If my comment seems a little extreme, H, remember that I am only commenting on the teachings of Calvin!!!   And...a lot of Calvininsts.

When your premises lead you to absurd conclusions, it is time to take a look at your premeses.  Not time to hunker down and start mumbling "soveriegn majesty", "majestic sovereignty" ect.

BTW, Matthew Henry was the first commentary I ever owned...back in 1962.

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

"Throughout, Scripture teaches that election is not conditioned upon any work or act of man. Acts 13:48 states, "For as many as were ordained to eternal life, believed." Now, which is first: belief or ordination? Plainly the latter. Or we read in John 15:16: "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you and ordained you, that you should go forth and bring forth fruit...." And in I John 4:10: "Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins." Election is surely unconditional according to all the teachings of Scripture."

Gise J. Van Baren (http://www.prca.org/pamphlets/pamphlet_43.html)

"Clinical studies show that, if you take these products as recommended, your cold will be gone in two to three weeks; whereas if you don't take these products, your cold could linger for as long as two, or even three, weeks. In other words, these products have no effect whatsoever, but you should buy them anyway, because otherwise the multi-billion-dollar cold-and-flu-remedy industry will collapse, and there will be nothing propping up the economy except telemarketers.

But your best plan is to not get a cold or flu in the first place. According to the American Society of Medical Doctors Who Cannot See You Now, you should take these basic precautions during cold and flu season:

1. Drink plenty of fluids (''fluids'' is the medical term for ''beer'').

2. Remove all doorknobs from your home and office.

3. If you have children -- especially small children who attend preschool with other small children -- ship them to New Zealand."

Dave Barry (http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/living/columnists/dave_barry/7268536.htm)

"We are so close now to achieving a 21st-century version of Martin Luther King's vision for America," said an unnamed ACLU spokesman. "We are speeding up that day when all people -- homosexuals and heterosexuals...singles, couples and small groups...sentient beings and non-sentient beings -- can join hands, paws or flippers in civil matrimony and sing in the words of that old African-American spiritual 'Free at last...Free at last. Thank our lucky stars we are free at last'."

- from www.scrappleface.com, a satire site  :D.

Little crusty nose, a grade two boy, is chewing, opened mouthed and smiling at me.

"You afraid of a man this big?" he says, measuring an inch with his thumb and index finger.

"I am if you're gonna poke it in my eye." I tell him.

Crusty continues to chew, opened mouthed, grinning at me.
"Oh, you're good!" he tells me
drj

"End of Construction.  Thank You for Your Patience."

                                Ruth Bell Graham's proposed epitaph,
                   
 from a book about her called
Celebrating An Extraordinary Life
                    by Stephen Griffith

"Wounded vanity knows when it is mortally hurt; and limps off the field, piteous, all disguises thrown away.  But pride carries its banner to the last; and fast as it is driven from one field unfurls it in another."
           ___Helen Hunt Jackson, American author (1831-1885)

Applied to George and assembly leadership, this quote really comes to life!  :o

     Ansel Adams was a pioneer of black & white scenic photography, illustrating the depth and vastness of nature in ways that had never been done before.  This morning I saw this quote by him:

     To the complaint,
      'There are no people in these photographs,'
      I respond,
      'There are always two people: the photographer and the viewer.'
     --Ansel Adams, photographer (1902-1984)

     I submit this to you because it illustrates a point that the Lord has been teaching me for a long time (because I have a slow learning curve):

     There are always two people:  The Lord, Who is teaching, showing, illustrating, demonstrating; and the one to whom the lesson is directed.  My natural tendency, upon seeing any "new" truth, is to immediately consider who among my acquaintances needs to learn it.  I am ever so anxious to run to them, to see how they will receive this latest revelation the Lord has given me to share with them.
     It somehow doesn't naturally occur to me that if the Lord had wanted to show this truth to them, He could have done so as simply and directly as He did to me.  He doesn't require my go-between...  He is GOD!  He can manage it without my help.
     So, then, there are only two people involved:  The Lord and the one to whom He is speaking.  Me.

     Now, you may wonder, "Why, al, if this is true, are you telling me this?"  An excellent question; I'm glad you asked :D!
     God does use us as vessels of communication when He so chooses; He simply doesn't need to do so.  He seldom delivers a message through someone who hasn't first learned it himself.  So when someone assays to tell you that God wants you to know something, take a look to see:
     **Is that person an example of the principle he is instructing?
     **Is that person speaking downward, laterally, or upward to you?
         (hint: downward should be a red flag)
     **Are you able to disregard the person who brought you the idea,
         and receive the message as having come from the Lord Himself?

     I think there is not yet any final word on how the Lord may choose to instruct us or by what means we may learn.

al Hartman

    Fools make fun of guilt, but the godly
   acknowledge it and seek reconciliation.
      Prov 14:9

"(Lewis was grieving the death of his wife:) Not that I am (I think) in much danger of ceasing to believe in God. The real danger is of coming to believe such dreadful things about Him. The conclusion I dread is not 'So there's no God after all,' but 'So this is what God's really like. Decieve yourself no longer.' " From a Grief Observed. C.S. Lewis.

" If my soldiers began to think, not one of them would remain in the ranks"....Frederick the Great (1712-1786).

Sometime we reap kindness because we sowed a little of it.
I like  the way one poet put it.

I  have wept in the night
For the shortness of sight
That to somebody's need made me blind
But I never have yet
Felt a twinge of regret
For being a little too kind.

From: the tales of the tardy oxcart

Newspapers are in trouble because the public perceives journalists as being more liberal than the average American.  This view is based on a survey showing that in the 2000 presidential election between Al Gore and George W. Bush, 86 percent of newspaper journalists - a much higher percentage than the general population - voted for Stalin.

-Dave Barry

"Would you reach out your hand, to save a dying man, if you thought he might pull you in ?" from Masked and Anonymous..Bob Dylan.

We all want progress, but if you're on the wrong road, progress means doing an about-turn and walking back to the right road; in that case, the man who turns back soonest is the most progressive.

C. S. Lewis

This can't be right!

If this quote were true, it would mean that people in a Geftakys-lite assembly shouldn't be there....

They have repented I tell ya!  How much more do they have to repent?

Why shouldn't ex-leaders be able to lead a "new work?"  They've repented, I tell ya.

C.S. Lewis must be wrong.

Brent

The Providence of God is our fortress, our shield and our very great reward.  It is what provides courage and perseverance for His saints.  If we understand the providence of God and love the God of providence, we are able to worship Him with the sacrifice of praise He inherently deserves when things occur that bring pain, sorrow, and affliction into our lives.

--R.C.Sproul

"I have to realize that whatever I do has meaning only if I ask that it serves His purpose, I believe that in my present undertaking, whatever the outcome, it will be His doing. I will pray for understanding of what it is He would have me do."

RONALD REAGAN 1976

" Character is what a man is in the dark"
D.L.Moody

They can't score if they don't have the puck.
                                         Wayne Gretzky

'When we played it was, " How lucky we are to be here "
With players today it's, " How lucky you are to have us."

BOB PLAGER  1967-1978 St Louis Blues

" Within the covers of this Bible are all the answers for all the problems that men face. The  Bible can touch hearts, order minds and refresh souls"

RONALD REAGAN

" It was the Lord who put it [the discovery of America] in my mind. I could feel His hand upon me. There's  no question that the inspiration was from the Holy Spirit because He comforted me with rays of marvelous inspiration through the Holy Scripture."

Christopher Columbus

Without commonly shared and widely entrenched moral values and obligations, neither the law,
nor the democratic government, nor even the market economy will function properly.
Vaclav Havel

This also was a common saying in Romania , under communism. "NO GOOD DEED WILL GO UNPUNISHED"

Quotes From RONALD REAGAN

" No arsonal, or no weapon in the arsonals of the world, is so formidable as the will and moral courage of free men and women. "


" The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant: It's just that they know so much that is'nt so. "

" The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help."

"We somewhere got the insane notion that the only faithful way to relate to a non-Christian is either ignoring her, persecuting her, or converting her.  That's absurd.  How about befriending her?  How about showing hospitality to her?  How about getting to know her, seeking to understand her, seeking to be a blessing to her?  We're afraid that by accepting people, we're giving tacit approval to everything they believe and do...Beyond love, it seems simple respect is missing in a lot of the rhetoric one hears, especially from some of the extreme conservatives...."  Brian D. McLaren

An interesting quote.  I am not familiar with McLaren or his work, and a look at his bio http://www.anewkindofchristian.com/biography.html (http://www.anewkindofchristian.com/biography.html) has done nothing to alleviate that.  Some of his book titles are alarming, but it's tricky to judge them by their covers...  I'm curious as to who he refers to as "we" in the above quote?

Glad to hear from you, Mercy4Me.  Perhaps you'd care to share with us your own opinions on this or another thread?  Whether so or not, welcome aboard...

al

Under "Articles", "An Open Letter to Chuck Colson" and "Chuck Colson's Response" seem to be the quickest route to where McLaren is coming from.

It all sounds so very reasonable, except for its subtle deceptiveness.  He calls himself a Christian and yet ever so subtilely denies that truth exists.  This reminds me of "The Silver Chair" by C.S. Lewis.  The Emerald Witch was burning incence and quietly suggesting to Prince Rilian that there was no such land as Narnia, that it was all a figment of his imagination.

Brian McLaren is a big name in what is called "the emerging church" or "the post-modern church"movement.  Unlike Colson, who sees postmodernism as a negative thing - relivitism at its worse - McLaren sees Postmodernism as a natural historical movement similar to moving from the dark ages to modernism.

The book A New Kind if Christian is a poorly written but somewhat decent introduction to their thought.  It is about an evangelical pastor in a time of crisis who meets a progressive-thinking former-pastor-turned-history teacher who becomes an answer-man like mentor.  He teaches the pastor things like:

o  Modernists see the Bible as an "answer book" and use the Bible to prove something while postmodernists see that the Bible does not always resolve and strugging with the question often brings us closer to God.

o  Modernists see things as either/or - you are either in the kingdom or out of the kingdom.  Those who are out are seen as "outsiders" and those in are seen as "insiders".  Postmodernists see evangelism much different.  They would be less inclined to emphasize the differences of other religions (as a modernist) and more inclined to emphasize the similarities thus joining the person on their spiritual journey and discovering Christ together.

o  More emphasis is put on community, artistic expression, religious symbolism.  They rightly see that the evangelical church too often follows the corporate business model with the pastor as CEO.  They argue that the church-growth "gather to a big meeting and then try to break out and disciple individuals" model needs to be examined.  Though there are postmodern churches (McLaren pastors one in the Baltimore area), I don't know if they really came up with an alternative.  

o  Postmodernists would see someone as a function of his or her environment and culture and would be more inclined to celebrate a native American dance to Jesus in worship.

o  They see evangelicalism as having been hyjacked by right-leaning conservatives.  They argue that abortion and homosexuality has too long been the prime issue without regard to a practical response to poverty, homelessness, affordable housing, racism, and the morality of war.  It is my personal observation as I read their literature that when they say "God is not Republican or Democrat", they tend to think of God in terms of politically liberal causes.  While I think the church needs to do more in some areas such a HIV/AIDS I think they merely shift the pendulum to the other extreme and ignore abortion in favor of feeding the homeless and protesting the killing of war.

The problem with the whole concept of postmodernism is, by their own admission, there are really no established definitions.  What makes it worse is that postmodernism tends to see definitions as modern constructs and therefore deny the validity of definitions themselves (thinks should be understood by their context, not by absolute definitions, some argue).

From a practical standpoint, here are those I observed in the Postmodern church movement:
o  Those who are disillusioned with Evangelism and is reacting against it (much like the Jesus movement or the Plymouth Brethren had a dissatisfaction with the church of their day).
o  Those who are really into postmodern philosophy and half the time you can't understand what they are talking about.
o  Those who want to tie Christianity with politically liberal causes and who feel the church has aligned themselves too closely to the politics of Falwell, Dobson and Bush.  It amazes me how often they (like liberals) make Falwell the "evangelical spokesman" as opposed to other capable thinkers such as J.I. Packer, John Piper and even Rick Warren (who did a great job on Larry King).

I personally don't care for McLaren both having heard him speak and read his book but others have liked his stuff.  I object to his simplisitic critisizm of the evangelical church and he comes across as someone who wants to be a big fish in the emerging church movement.  I personally (having grown up a modernist) have a difficult time not seeing postmodernism as an extreme form of relativism that fuels the diversity and tolerance (all views are tolerated, but some are more tolerated than others) movement as opposed to a simple and natural paradeigm shift in our understanding of the world.

I think a much better and thought provoking book is Blue Like Jazz by Martin who writes a very honest book and, for the most part, hasn't departed so far that I get completely disguisted.

Another place to investigate this further is www.theooze.com.  It will help you understand a bit where they are coming from.

Dave,

You said,

1. You might just feel this way because post-modernism IS an extreme, and dishonest, form of relativism.

2. What is the paradigm shift of which you speak?  Most paradigm shifts are neither simple or natural.  

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

Mercy,

I guess our friend Brian D. McLaren has never read the popular book, "Lifestyle Evangelism" by Joseph Aldrich.  In one chapter he makes the following points:

1. Get acquainted with your neighbors.
2. Establish a growing relationship.
3. Extend an invitation to your home.
4. Cultivate common interests.
5. Be available for the hurting.
6. Be a giver of books.
7. Find an appropriate harvest vehicle.  By this he means things like home Bible studies, church sports programs, fishing trips with your unsaved friends, things like that.

He says more, but as you can see McLaren is reacting to what is done in SOME churches.  Certainly not all.

My adult sunday school class wanted to reach out to our neighbors in a non-threatening way, with the goal that they would become interested in trying out some of the programs we have.  The method?

A free car wash on Saturday morning.  Big sign out front, "Free Car Wash, no donations accepted".

They just washed their cars.  While they waited there was a literature table that THEY could walk over to and take church packet, which contains, among other things, a tract.  

There were also some cold drinks available, (free), and people who could answer questions.  Many did.  Some asked, "What do you folks believe?"  The question was answered.  But if they didn't ask, they just got a free car wash.

McLaren should have driven by.

Thomas Maddux

1.  Yes, I agree.  I cut my postmodernism teeth on Ravi Zacharis, Os Guinnis and Francis Shaeffer (who didn't call it that but he certainly saw it coming) and I see it as a teaching that says truth is a function of your environment and culture and that everyone's truth needs to be equally affirmed (at least the truths they happen to like).   Truth, after all, is a power grab and exaulting American Christian truth to be a meta-truth (all encompassing truth) would be dishonoring the American Indian who is berated because he doesn't have as powerful of a voice to celebrate his truth.

2.  Here is McLaren's argument the best I understand and remember it:

Once upon a time, there was a medieval church.  People went to church and related to God in a much different way than we do today.  They probably didn’t hear the same type of pulpit ministry as we do, they didn’t see the Bible as an answer book, nor did they reason with the same sort of apologetics.  They related to God based upon the artistic structure of the cathedral, through sight and smell and other means not found in our churches today.  Suddenly, the Renaissance came along and the beginning of modernism arose.  

We began to form logic, a scientific methods and the thesis/anti-thesis governed our thinking.  We began to understand our world using categories and absolute definitions.  This constitutes a shift in the way people thought and related in previous times.  It formed a new “grid”.  Modernism was not a requirement to know God (after all, people knew God before modernism came along).  It just became the context through which people viewed Him.

Just as there was a paradigm shift from medieval to modern, we are currently in a thought shift from modern to post-modern.  Since this is where our culture is heading, we Christians need to learn how to relate to God within this new post-modern “grid” so that we can remain relevant in this new context.

That is his position.  I know you can poke holes in it as well as I – not the least of which to point out that the move from Medieval to modern was forced upon us by such facts as “the Earth really rotates around the sun and not the other way around”.  I’m not confident that postmodernism brings similar truths to the table.  

I personally think that the movement is a  reactionary movement by those who don’t like the way church is done.

One of my objections as I read their literature, listened to their sermons, etc. is their reactionary tone.  One would think that Jerry Falwell was the only spokesman for Christianity and the only thing Franklin Graham ever said in his life is "Islam is an evil religion".  I think some in their rank have some great ideas (Tom Sine, for instance, had some excellent ideas of Christian community as a response to the need for affordable housing and Martin in Blue Like Jazz did some really cool things in reaching unbelievers in a very secular university).  But as long as they take their "tolerant and understanding of everyone except evangelicals" approach, I think they will only attract the disgruntled.

Of course, I can think of another church that attracted those disgruntled with the established church back in the 1970's . . .

Can you guess who wrote this:
"I am a democrat because I believe that no man or group of men is good enough to be trusted with uncontrolled power over others.  And the higher the pretensions of such power, the more dangerous I think it both to the rulers and to the subjects.  Hence Theocracy is the worst of all governments."

Mercy,

It was C.S.Lewis, and his reference to Theocracy was regarding the kind of government that gave birth to the crusades and the Spanish Inquisition, i.e. a government run by religious clerics who claim to be acting on behalf of God, but ultimately act in their own selfish interests.  (Something like that 1970s church that Dave is referring to...)

There is coming a day in which the true government of God will be made visible to all of earth and heaven, reigned over by the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.  In that day, all the deeds of men will be set right.

Was that your point?

al

He certainly did. As far back as the sixties he was contending that the notion that we were living in a post-Christian society was gravely mistaken.
He was then of the opinion that we were seeing the emergence of an anti-Christian society.
In this he was right on the money as the evidence today confirms.
It seems as if believers today have no stomach for contending for the faith.
It is truly startling what supposedly Bible -believing folk will accept today with nary a whisper of challenge.
Verne


 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Hi Mercy,

I'm going to go out on a limb here and prophecy that you are undergoing a "post Assembly Political Re-evaluation." (PAPR)

I was a member of God's party, (GOP) for my entire life.  Afterall, they are the party with Christian values, right?

Wrong!  There are some things the democrats stand for that are Christian as well.

"Should I be a democrat?" I asked myself.  No!  They have too much other stuff that is really, really bad.

Anyways, I am now a Libertarian.  The fastest growing aspect of the party is from Evangelical Christians.

Kudos on accurately discerning the hypocrisy of the religious right!  Please steer clear of the socially conscious left, and embrace the concepts of freedom.

(I may be way off base here, in which case forgive my assumptions!)

Brent

"America is great because America is good."  Alexis deToqueville in Democracy in America

Liberty and freedom are the best vehicles for spreading the gospel, and the gospel is the only hope we have here, regardless of who is in office.

Just to set the record straight...I'm neither a republican, a democrat, or a libertarian. I vote for whoever I think the best candidate is, which is a challenge in this day and age.

I don't think C.S. Lewis was referring to the American democratic party and several people have referenced the quote quite well. I just thought it was interesting.

I certainly am post-assembly and probably pretty "anti" any form of Christianity that is smugly arrogant about their form of rightness complete with chapter and verse. It shows up on this website sometimes and makes me cringe. I am drawn to humility in Christian gatherings not their doctrinal perfection. Humility is the odor of Christ for me.

I was aware that CS Lewis wasn't talking about American politics.  I was just going out on a limb, assuming that you had been re-evaluating your own political leanings.  I was merely trying to draw you into conversation about it.

I agree with you that it is an interesting quote.

It's pretty obvious that alot of people need a good dose of humility here on the website.

My personal goal is to be humble enough to enjoy the company of smug, arrogant Christians.  The church I attend now has parts that smell really good, and others not so good, at least that's how it seems to me.  This helps me grow in my ability to bear with arrogant brethren.  I can relate to them, because I used to be arrogant too.  Now that I've been out of The Assembly for 4 years, I'm way more humble than I used to be.

I'm happy that Jesus loves the ones that seem smug, as well as the ones who are humble.  When I think of how messed up the people are on this website, I take comfort in that.

As for me, I'm of the same opinion as you.  I'm anti pride, and pro-humility.  Doctrine should always be secondary to real, Christ-like humility.  People who have it the other way 'round are really missing the boat.

Anyways, I like talking about all kinds of stuff, and some of my current favorites are sailing, poker, politics and the movie, Napolean Dynamite.

I was just hoping you had some interesting revelations regarding your political beliefs to share.

Brent

One would think this is true-- it certainly seems reasonable; makes sense.  And yet, 200+ years of the greatest liberty and freedom the world has ever known have brought America to the present burgeoning anti-christian society that surrounds us, seeking to, and seeming to succeed at, watering down and shutting down the preaching of the gospel.

Historically, God appears to have used persecution to promote furtherance of the gospel-- certainly Christians have shined brightest when persecuted for their faith.  (Perhaps one of our resident historians would elaborate on this point, or correct me if I'm mistaken.)  It is entirely possible that the present hostile conditions may give birth to a revival of Christianity in western society.



Amen, Brother!  "We here," and anyone else anywhere.  How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation...

Brent,

You said,

Libertarianism grew out of Ayn Rand's philosophy of "Objectivism".  Its fundamental assumptions are materialism and atheism.  Most of the folks that you hear referred to as "Neo-Cons" (neo-conservatives) are of this ilk.

Rand claimed that she could deduce moral values on the basis of reason alone.  Although there are still Randians claiming this, such as Leonard Peikoff, it is a bogus claim.

When I talk to libertarians I just listen until they make an assertion such as "everyone owns themselves" or "there should be no social wellfare system", and then I ask them "How do you know that is true?"

The answer is usually, "what?", or perhaps another assertion of unsupported "fact".  In other words, these folks ascribe to a set of values that they have created themselves.

I don't mean to say that they are never right.  What I am saying is that they are basing their political philosophy on a foundation nothing more than "X is true because I say it is true."

One example is the libertarian belief that drugs like heroin and cocain should be legal.  The libertarians support this idea on the basis that "everyone owns his own body and has the right to do with it as he wishes".  However, as a Christian I have always believed that God owns everyone's body. And that everyone is responsible to God for the stewardship of their body.  

I furthur believe that human societies should reflect the will of the sovereign of the universe.  The reason that they don't is that man is fallen and usually in rebellion against God.  So, when I see a law regulating drug use, I agree with it at least in principle, if not in every detail, because it promotes a true moral value.

I am well aware that many Evangelicals are disappointed that they cannot control the Republican party and have advocated a third party approach.  Libertarians, at first glance, look a lot like Conservatives due to their many shared values.  So, many conservative Evangelicals are attracted to them.

I am not.  This is for two reasons; First, I believe that morality must be grounded in belief in God. The founders of the philosophy and party frequently do not share that belief.  Second, I detect a strong nihilistic vein in their thought that would lead to a very different America from the one we and our ancestors lived in.  I'm not sure at all that that America would be a nice place.

A political party, to be successful, must appeal to a broad range of people. Third parties never do that.  When they have some success, it is usually because of a popular candidate, like Teddy Roosevelt, who ran for a third term as a "Bull Moose", or Ross Perot.

 I have been a Democrat, an Independent, and a Republican. For now, I will remain a Republican since they reflect my values better than the others.  But, as Churchill said, "Politics is the art of the possible."  No political party will ever perfectly reflect Biblical morality, or good sense either.

Thomas Maddux

I know you feel that way.  No problem.

Anyhow, this isn't the place to discuss it.  This is about quotes to ponder!

Just to steer us away from massive thread drift, Ill say one thing, and if you wish to discuss it, start a new thread.

Most Libertarians advocate exactly the same thing that the founding fathers did, freedom.  We are not nihilistic at all, although we have our share of kooks, which have been the focus for a long time.  

The best way to keep us down, if you are a republican or democrat, is to mis-represent what we stand for, and make sure that it sticks.

BTW, did you know that the first law concerning Marijuana was a legal mandate to make sure that farmers produced a certain amount every year?  

Drugs and alchohol were legal in George Washington's day.

Brent

Brent,
Thanks for your comments. I agree that having left the assembly behind has helped me also to see the arrogance and pigheaded ways that I thought were so positively biblically correct. It's embarrassing, but the result is that I have a newfound appreciation for men and women of God who are not like that and I hope more patience with people like myself, or least the person I was awhile ago!
I have always appreciated the balance you lend to this board. I will probably not share too many personal opinions here. It has been pretty obvious that when someone shares opinions that  ________(fill in the blank) doesn't agree with he becomes insulting and/or demeaning...not always, but enough of the time that it makes sharing seem pretty pointless.
Anyway, I just saw Napoleon Dynamite - pretty hysterical.
M4M

Hi M,

Much of my post was slightly tongue in cheek, but not the part about Napoloean Dynamite.

What I was getting at, in an obtuse way, was that I used to be arrogant, as you described, then I got arrogantly humble, basically looking down on the arrogant assembly types, with my newly aquired humility.

I used to arrogantly despise the humble for not being serious, or not being real students of the Word, or for not going the way of the cross, etc.

Then, I saw the folly of my ways and began to despise those who were like I was, a few years earlier...same problem, different viewpoint.

Now, I am beginning to see that there are all types of people in the church, and I don't want to despise any of them.  

Humble, proud, doctrinal, experiential, ignorant, happy, serious....Jesus loves them all.

In my own life, there was a large pendulum swing from arrogant to "humble" to humbly arrogant, etc.  This is, I think rather common to people who went through what we did.

We need to eventually find balance, which will take time.

Brent

Brent,

OK, no problem.  Here are some "Quotes to Ponder."  As you can see, I am not misrepresenting anyone.  


Here, for example, is the Libertarian Party's position on welfare reform:

.
"End Welfare
None of the proposals currently being advanced by either conservatives or liberals is likely to fix the fundamental problems with our welfare system. Current proposals for welfare reform, including block grants, job training, and "workfare" represent mere tinkering with a failed system.
It is time to recognize that welfare cannot be reformed: it should be ended.
We should eliminate the entire social welfare system. This includes eliminating AFDC, food stamps, subsidized housing, and all the rest. Individuals who are unable to fully support themselves and their families through the job market must, once again, learn to rely on supportive family, church, community, or private charity to bridge the gap. "

Here is their view on drug legalization:

"It's time to re-legalize drugs and let people take responsibility for themselves. Drug abuse is a tragedy and a sickness. Criminal laws only drive the problem underground and put money in the pockets of the criminal class. With drugs legal, compassionate people could do more to educate and rehabilitate drug users who seek help. Drugs should be legal. Individuals have the right to decide for themselves what to put in their bodies, so long as they take responsibility for their actions."

Here are their ideas on immigration:

"he Libertarian Party has long recognized the importance of allowing free and open immigration, understanding that this leads to a growing and more prosperous America. We condemn the xenophobic immigrant bashing that would build a wall around the United States. At the same time, we recognize that the right to enter the United States does not include the right to economic entitlements such as welfare. The freedom to immigrate is a freedom of opportunity, not a guarantee of a handout. "

If you really believe that this represents the position of the founding fathers, you are mistaken.

Thomas Maddux

I agree wholeheartedly with all three of those positions!

Let's discuss it on another thread.

Brent

Tom (or anyone else):

We moved from postmodern churches to libertarians.  That's OK - it's the nature of the BB beast.  However, any thoughts on my postmodern comments below?  

-Dave

Dave,

IMHO much of the postmodern yak is nothing more than folks who don't know what they are talking about trying to sound sophisticated, or worse, trying to justify their evil acts.

I have read a couple of articles by post-modernist "theologians" blabbing about how God is known through cultural grids.  Like many "new" ideas this has some truth in it.  The problem is when one makes it the great interpretive principle by which all else is understood.  I haven't pursued this though.

When I was in my final years of teaching I began to encounter young teachers who had been taught to believe that we construct our own reality in our heads, and no one else's reality is any more "real" than the one my crowd likes.

I used to ask them, "If that is true, why do you always head for the same hole in the wall, (door), I do when it is time to go to class?"  They usually would answer with "huh?"  It wouldn't be long before they would have to admit that we do not create the physical world that we live in.  

But, as true believers they would always go on to a bunch of David Mauldin style preaching about what is wrong with anyone who disagrees with their politics and (lack of) morality.  All post-modernism is in this area is an extreme form of moral relativism...nothing really new.

So, I would always ask them what makes things right or wrong.  When they answered that the community "story" is determinative, I would always ask if the other guy's community had the right to make up its own "story".  They have to admit this, or deny their own position. (btw, this would also mean that all church practices are equally legitimate).

So, it was always quite easy to show them that their position was self-contradictory and self-refuting.  Never made much difference though...they went right on preaching about what was wrong with moral people and why abortion, homosexualtiy, etc. was OK.

Their beliefs are grounded in antithapy towards God, not rationality.

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

Actually Tom, the problem is much worse than mere antipathy.
People who deliberately reject God's revealed truth become incapable of rational thought. The examples you provided clearly attest to that fact.





We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.  2 Cor 5:8

Verne

p.s. the unsaved are another matter...the story of Lazarus and the rich man may be probative ( Luke 16:19-31).

I think this is true for a true postmodernist (someone who truly believes that truth is merely a power grab).  However, I think the emerging church movement has a mismash of people.

1.  Those who are missionary minded and feel they can figure out how to reach these people in a "postmodern context"  (much like those in the church growth movement wanted to reach baby boomers).

2.  Those who feel that mainstream churches are not doing it for them and would are hoping they will find answers in this new movement (been there, done that).

3.  Those who feel the inhumanity of war and poverty are greater issues than abortion and family values and found in the movement Christians who think like they do.

4.  True postmodernists who go to church but if pagan sex rituals are your thing, that's OK too.

I was easdropping into their conversations to see if they came up with any solutions to the problems they were trying to solve.  So far, I haven't heard of anything that impressed me as they still speak with many voices.  I think, like the church growth movement, they will have their stars that rise to the top, ride the wave and have some influence on the American church as a whole and then turn into another church fossel.

One speaker (it may have even been McLaren) said that he was looking forward to them completing a book of postmodern theology but they are still trying to figure out what it is.  Personally, I think it will look less like a book volume and more like a computer game where each person can select options as to where they are coming from. ;)

"To have peace with this peculiar life, to accept what we do not understand, to wait calmly for what awaits us, you have to be wiser than I am."
                                   -- M. C. Escher

     As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place.
 
 --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz

Relations between pure and applied mathematicians are based on trust and understanding.  Namely, pure mathematicians do not trust applied mathematicians, and applied mathematicians do not understand pure mathematicians.

    Perhaps never before in the history of the church have the people of God been so apathetic to the reality of the resurrection, ascension, intercession, and second coming of Christ.  Nevertheless, we are called to celebrate Christ's resurrection, ascension, and intercession, and we are called to proclaim boldly His second coming, not merely through a personal testimony, but by the preaching of the Good News of Jesus Christ so that the lost might believe and so that we might rightly live coram Deo, before the face of God.

                 --Burk Parsons

If you judge people, you have no time to love them.

-Mother Teresa

                       Every cask smells of the wine it contains.

                       - -Spanish proverb

This isn't really a quote, and I'm not sure who the author is, but I'll paraphrase something I read the other day that I thought was quite good.

A girl begins complaining about her lot in life to her mother. Her mother says "Have you ever heard the story about the carrot, the egg and the coffee beans?" "No" she says. "We'll put all three of them in separate pots of boiling water and sea what happens". Twenty minutes later the mother says "Look at the carrot--it used to be hard and firm, but once in the boling water it became soft and easily broken. Look at the egg--it faced the boiling water and became hard inside--it has the same outer shell, but it has lost it's fluidity and softness. But now look at the coffee bean--it faced the boling water---and it changed the water into a smooth tasting drink. Daughter, are you the carrot, the egg or the coffee bean? When you face the boiling water of life do you give up and become soft? Or do you like the egg, become hardened inside and firm? Or, do you like the coffee bean, actually change the situation around you when faced with turmoil?"

When we were born, we came into the world crying--and everyone around us was smiling. May we live our lives so that when we die everyone around us is crying, and we are the one who is smiling.

--Joe

               I never desire to converse with a man who has written more than he has read.

                   -Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784)

A man is like a fraction whose numerator is what he is and whose denominator is what he thinks of himself.  The larger the denominator the smaller the fraction.
                                   -- Count Lev Nikolgevich Tolstoy

I know, indeed, and can conceive of no pursuit so antagonistic to the cultivation of the oratorical faculty ... as the study of Mathematics.  An eloquent mathematician must, from the nature of things, ever remain as rare a phenomenon as a talking fish, and it is certain that the more anyone gives himself up to the study of oratorical effect the less will he find himself in a fit state to mathematicize.
                                   -- J.J. Sylvester

Men who are unhappy, like men who sleep badly, are always proud of the fact.
                                   -- Bertrand Russell

Work is of two kinds: first, altering the position of matter at or near the earth's surface relatively to other such matter; second, telling other people to do so.  The first kind is unpleasant and ill paid; the second is pleasant and highly paid.
                                   -- Bertrand Russell

Those who are accustomed to judge by feeling do not understand the process of reasoning, because they want to comprehend at a glance and are not used to seeking for first principles.  Those, on the other hand, who are accustomed to reason from first principles do not understand matters of feeling at all, because they look for first principles and are unable to comprehend at a glance.
                                   -- Blaise Pascal

A sign is not the same thing as proof.  A sign is merely a marker for someone who is looking in the right direction.
...
With hard evidence of a spectacular miracle walking free in the person of Lazarus, they[the chief priests] balefully conspired to destroy that evidence.  In no event did the miracles bowl people over and "steamroller" them into belief.  Otherwise there would be no room for faith.

pgs. 178,180-181 The Jesus I Never Knew  by  Philip Yancey

Soon silence will have passed into legend. Man has turned his back on
silence. Day after day he invents machines and devices that increase noise
and distract humanity from the essence of life, contemplation, meditation.
Tooting, howling, screeching, booming, crashing, whistling, grinding, and
trilling bolster his ego.

     -Jean Arp, artist and poet (1887-1948)

I know of no more poignant contrast between two human destinies than that of Peter and Judas.  Both assumed leadership within the group of Jesus' disciples.  Both saw and heard wondrous things.  Both went through the same dithery cycle of hope, fear, and disillusionment.  As the stakes increased, both denied their Master.  There, the similarity breaks off.  Judas, remorseful but apparently unrepentant, accepted the logical consequences of his deed, took his own life, and went down as the greatest traitor in history.  He died unwilling to receive what Jesus had come to offer him.  Peter, humiliated but still open to Jesus' message of grace and forgiveness, went on to lead a revival in Jerusalem and did not stop until he had reached Rome.

Pg. 194 from The Jesus I Never Knew by Philip Yancey

Yancey did not get it quite right. Judas' conditon at his death was far more tragic than  his being unwilling to receive what Christ had come to offer...he was at that point unable...
Verne

p.s. the reason is that after his betrayal of Christ, there were no longer any viable options left in this life;
scripture says it would have been better for him not to have been born!

God is not a Republican.  He just votes that way. ;)

I know you said this in jest Dave.
People who actually think like this I find a bit frightening...
Verne

It was definately in jest.  A friend of mine said this in an e-mail and I laughed into my computer.

From A.Word.A.Day, on-line newsletter:

Every act of conscious learning requires the willingness to suffer an
injury to one's self-esteem. That is why young children, before they are
aware of their own self-importance, learn so easily; and why older persons,
especially if vain or important, cannot learn at all.

          -Thomas Szasz,
          author, professor of psychiatry (1920- )

---

     (This guy has almost grasped why the natural man
   doesn't receive and cannot understand the things of God...)

al

(also) From A.Word.A.Day, on-line newsletter:


Nothing so completely baffles one who is full of trick and duplicity
himself, than straightforward and simple integrity in another.

     --CharlesCaleb Colton (1780-1832),
          author and clergyman

" With fame I become more and more stupid, which of course is a very common phenomenon"

Albert Einstein


" The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cock sure and the intelligent are full of doubt."

Bertrand Russell

" Never underestimate the power of very stupid people in large groups."

John Galbraith

    In faith there is enough light for those who want to
    believe and enough shadows to blind those who don't.
    - Blaise Pascal

"The greatest leader is not necesarily the one who does the greatest things...He's the one who gets the people to do the greatest things"

RONALD REAGAN

Our Greatest Fear

Marianne Williamson from her book "A Return to Love"
 

Our greatest fear is not that we are inadequate,
but that we are powerful beyond measure.

It is our light, not our darkness, that frightens us.
We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant,
gorgeous, handsome, talented and fabulous?

Actually, who are you not to be?
You are a child of God.

Your playing small does not serve the world.
There is nothing enlightened about shrinking
so that other people won't feel insecure around you.

We were born to make manifest the glory of God within us.
It is not just in some; it is in everyone.

And, as we let our own light shine, we consciously give
other people permission to do the same.
As we are liberated from our fear,
our presence automatically liberates others.

     Personally, I have not always had so much difficulty with the formulations of correct doctrine.  It is making sure that this doctrine helps me to obey God and to love others that is the hard part.  I suspect that is true for many others as well.  We can manage knowledge far better than we can manage our own lives.  We can control our thinking, but we cannot make others more lovable.

     ...As we seek to be true to Scripture, we must never cease asking God to conform us to His Word.  ...let us never think that right thinking alone will lead us to self-sacrificial acts of love and obedience.  Let us endeavor to build Christian fellowship with believers who differ with us on non-essential matters of the faith.  Let us seek to obey Scripture so that we are not only passionate about doctrinal precision but passionate about love and obedience as well.

     --Robert Rothwell
     Tabletalk, September, 2005

Great thoughts.  Thanks.

Can we? I am not so sure. If fact, a cogent case could be made that all wrong conduct is the result of wrong thinking. This would cause me to question whether someone who is bahaving wrongly, is in fact thinking rightly. This is why the gospel message involves the renewing of our minds.
I am of course equating your concept of "control" of our thinking with "right" thinking.
Verne

If I understand Rothwell's point, it is not that everyone does control his thoughts, nor that the unregenrate are capable of right thinking.  Rather, he is stating that the redeemed can be renewed in the spirit of our minds, thereby directing our thoughts toward Christ in love and obedience.  Maybe I'm reading too much into his words...  What impressed me most from what he wrote was this:


al

www.geftakysassembly.com/Reflections/Home.htm#whatsnew (http://www.geftakysassembly.com/Reflections/Home.htm#whatsnew)
home.datawest.net/esn-recovery/default.htm (http://home.datawest.net/esn-recovery/default.htm)

The deadliest counterfeit is the one that most closely resembles the truth.
~ Anonymous

Deception of any kind is a terrible thing, but spiritual deception is a monstrous evil.  ~ Gordon Sears

Deception works because it appears as something it is not. ~ Greg Reid

... for sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, deceived me, and through it killed me..  ~ Romans 7:11 NASB

"Do not be too quick to assume that your enemy is an enemy of God just because he is your enemy. Perhaps he is your enemy precisely because he can find nothing in you that gives glory to God. Perhaps he fears you because he can find nothing in you of God's love and God's kindness and God's patience and mercy and understanding of the weakness of men.

Do not be too quick to condemn the man who no longer believes in God, for it is perhaps your own coldness and avarice, your mediocrity and materialism, your sensuality and selfishness that have killed his faith."

---Thomas Merton

"Do not be too quick to assume that your enemy is an enemy of God just because she is your enemy. Perhaps she is your enemy precisely because she can find nothing in you that gives glory to God. Perhaps she fears you because she can find nothing in you of God's love and God's kindness and God's patience and mercy and understanding of the weakness of men.

Do not be too quick to condemn the woman who no longer believes in God, for it is perhaps your own coldness and avarice, your mediocrity and materialism, your sensuality and selfishness that have killed her faith."

---Thomas Merton


For the women on the board.   I like this version even better.  ;D 

This sounded like a good quote at first, and I love Thomas Merton, but the more I read it, I thought, this isn't true and this offers a lot of guilt and condemnation toward the believer.  I cannot think of a scripture that says this or even a passage.  So I have to conclude - this is not God's perspective.  This perspective seems to drive the Lord's people out of guilt to take the sins of others on themselves.  The fact is we can do nothing/very little about the sins and wrong thinking of others much less our own selves.  Past making the best choices daily for Christ that we can, we are God's responsibility and heaven's.  So are all others. 

The Word says to preach the Word...share with others, love them, go out to them.  It doesn't say that if they lose faith that it was because you didn't do it right....essentially "you were a bad example." I think the human soul has enough sin nature that it is condemned already.  Yes, there are those who can trip up or cause others' faith to shipwreck, but I dare say that this is the case with most believers.  Most of God's people try very hard to win others to Christ. 

This is surprising for Thomas Merton.  Perhaps it was taken out of context which changed the intended meaning.

Respectfully, Elizabeth, IMO, there is something about this quote that is inconsistent with the Spirit of the Lord.  No offense intended - after all, you didn't write it.

sj

 

I like this quote, Elizabeth. What it says simply, IMO, is what the scriptures say about complaining about the speck in your brother's eye when you have a beam in your own.

"You" can be taken to be plural and applied the the church as a whole. What kind of picture have we left to the unsaved world? Something that would draw them to Christ or to turn them away, hopeless and bitter?

Sure, GG would find fault with it! He didn't say it first.
The above sentence in italics was a response to SJ's reference to how GG would have interpreted Elizabeth's quote. SJ has deleted that part of her post.

"Then said He unto the disciples. It is impossible but that offences will come; but woe unto him, through whom they come! It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones."

       Political freedom cannot exist in any land where religion controls the
       state, and religious freedom cannot exist in any land where the state
       controls religion.

               --Samuel James Ervin Jr.,
                 lawyer, judge, and senator(1896-1985)

          To bless him who gives is easy, but to cling to him who
          takes away is a work of grace.

          --Spurgeon

       ...The bent and bias of the soul in all its internal workings must be toward God--the serving of Him in all we do and the enjoying of Him in all we have.  This is principally intended in the commands given us to "pray always" (Luke 21:36), to "pray without ceasing" (1 Thess. 5:17), to "continue in prayer" (Col. 4:2).  Even when we are not making actual addresses to God, we must have habitual inclinations toward Him.  A man in health, though he is not always eating, always has a disposition in him toward the nourishment and delights of the body.  In this way we must always be waiting on God, as our chief good, and moving toward Him.

     --Matthew Henry

   ...refuse to speculate beyond Scripture and insist on proclaiming the whole counsel of God, not simply the passages that seem to reinforce one-sided emphases.  It is not a question of where the logic should lead us but where the Scriptures do lead us.  It might be easier to resolve the mystery in simple, either-or solutions, but such a course would certainly not be safer.

                  -- Michael S. Horton

Al,

What a strange thing for Michael Horton to say!!  He is a staunch Calvinist, and ascribes to a theological system that is derived from the application of the very methodology that he is exhorting us to avoid.   :o

What is the context of the quote??

Tom

Tom,

The article is entitled "Reformed Theology Vs. Hyper-Calvinism," and is one of a series of articles by various Reformed authors on the general topic "No Strings Attached -- What Reformed Theology Is Not."  The articles appear in the Nov. issue of Tabletalk, a publication of Ligonier Ministries.  Their overall point is to use "the way of negation" to demonstrate that true Reformation Theology, or Calvinism, is neither what non-Calvinists teach it to be,  nor is it exemplified by extremists who choose to call themselves Calvinists.


Here's another gem from the same series: 

"...God's sovereign grace is the basis for the life of prayer, which is the very heart of personal piety.  Prayer is not a way of getting something that God has no intention of giving -- of persuading Him to do something He doesn't want to do.  Rather, it is a way of surrendering our own will to God's sovereign purpose.  We pray according to the promises of God, asking Him to do what only He can do, and then waiting for Him to answer.  We are all Calvinists when we pray, because in prayer we submit to the sovereignty of God, trusting His gracious plan for our lives."

                -- Phillip Graham Ryken


I'm sure you have read Calvin-- Have you studied "Calvinism" as taught by current theologians of the Reformed perspective?


It is my personal opinion that Calvin would find utterly abhorrent the use of his name attached to Reformation theology as the label of a movement, but that is a separate matter.

al

Al,


1. It sure seems strange to me that R. C. Sproul's magazine would call someone else a hyper-Calvinist.  I have a tape by him in my study.  In it he claims that Charles Ryrie, editor of the "Ryrie Study Bible" preaches "another gospel" and is under God's curse.  When I first heard it I backed it up and listened again, questioning whether or not I had heared him correctly.  Unfortunately, I had.   :'(

Since Ryrie's gospel is pretty much what is taught in most evangelical churches, it made me wonder if he thinks that all of us, or all preachers at least, are equally accursed.  He didn't say so outright. 

As to Horton, I have read one of his books, "Made In America", and some of his articles.  In the book he claims that evangelical Christianity is a big mistake, and not "real" Christianity.

2. To me, it is funny/pathetic for Calvinists to refer to their (semi) Reformed theology as "Reformation Theology".  Calvinism was influential, but was only a small part of the Magisterial Reformation, (the part led by magistrates).  The Lutherans and Anglicans were the majority crowd.  Calvinism took hold in Switzerland and Scotland, and was pretty big in France before it was suppressed.  But to call their part, "Reformation Theology" seems to smack of hubris to me.

Most evangelical churches can trace their descent back to the larger, "Radical Reformation".  That produced all the Baptist/Methodist/Ev. Free/Pentecostal/Bretheren (of various stripes)/Campbellite and so on churches that we know today.  It took place among people who rejected priestcraft in all its forms, and also rejected the power of the state over the church.

3. Most of my professors at Talbot were Calvinists.  I got quite a bit of Calvinist teaching from them.  As you know, I read a lot as well.  I had one professor who called himself an Arminian.  He was such an admirer of Calvin, (not necessarily Calvinism) that he taught seminars on Calvin's Institutes.

Blessings,

Tom

Tom,

Good enough for me.  So where does that leave you on the original quote by Horton and the one by Ryken?  I gather that by your saying that Horton's words seem "strange" coming from him that you are saying that a man with bad theology actually said something right?

al

One of Ronald Reagans favorite stories was one about the parents with the overly optimistic son. In an effort to make a realist out of the boy, they placed him in a stable full of horse manure and ordered him to shovel it out. When they came back to check his progress, the parents expected him to be miserable, tired, and cured of his optimism. Instead, they found him whistling cheerfully as he happily shoveled his way through the mountain of manure. "Why,"  they asked the boy, "are you so happy?"
"Well, with all this manure around," the boy replied, "there's gotta be a pony in here somewhere!"

According to Dianne Feinstein, Roe v. Wade is critically important because "women all over America have come to depend on it." At its most majestic, this precious right that women "have come to depend on" is the right to have sex with men they don't want to have children with.

There's a stirring principle! Leave aside the part of this precious constitutional right that involves (1) not allowing Americans to vote on the matter, and (2) suctioning brains out of half-born babies. The right to have sex with men you don't want to have children with is not exactly "Give me liberty, or give me death."

-Ann Coulter

http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/anncoulter/2006/01/12/182062.html

Admire those who seek the truth, question those who say thay found it.

Paraphrased: Feign joy that there is truth to be sought :D, but never, ever, allow it to be defined >:D.

"More tears have been shed as the result of answered prayers then unanswered"

                                                                                          Truman Capote


                                                 This quote appears at the end of "Capote" A great film!!!!

"Open Letter to Jane Ordinary"
Dear Jane:
     I am writing to help you shake this feeling of uselessness that has overtaken you. Several times you've said that you don't see how Christ can possibly use you. The church must bear part of the responsibility for making you feel as you do. I have in mind the success-story mentality of the church. Our church periodicals tell the story of John J. Moneybags who uses his influential position to witness for Christ. At the church youth banquet, we have a testimony from All-American football star, Ox Kickoffsky, who commands the respect of his teammates when he witnesses for Christ. We are led to think that if you don't have the leverage of stardom or a big position in the business world, you might as well keep your mouth shut. Nobody cares what Christ has done for you.
     We've forgotten an elementary fact about Christian witness, something that should encourage you: God has chosen what the world calls foolish to shame the wise. He has chosen what the world calls weak to shame the strong. He has chosen things of little strength and of small repute, yes, and even things which have no real existence to explode the pretensions of the things that are, that no man may boast in the presence of God.
     When Jesus Christ chose His disciples, He didn't choose Olympic champs or Roman senators. He chose simple people like you. Some were fishermen, one was a political extremist, another was a publican, a nobody in that society. But these men turned the Roman world upside down for Christ. How did they do it? Through their popularity? They had none. Their position? They had none. Their power was the power of Christ through the Holy Spirit.
     Jane, don't forget that we still need the ordinary in the hands of Christ to turn the world upside down.

     –Letter from a pastor in Arlington, Virginia, published in a church bulletin

"What one starts, one must complete. The man who begins and does
not finish is no better than


---Oswald P. Olsen, from his unfinished memoirs

Thus speaketh Christ our Lord to us:
Ye call Me Master and obey Me not.
Ye call Me Light and see Me not.
Ye call Me Way and walk Me not.
Ye call Me Life and choose Me not.
Ye call Me Wise and follow Me not.
Ye call Me Fair and love Me not.
Ye call Me Rich and ask me not.
Ye call Me Eternal and seek Me not.
Ye call Me Noble and serve Me not.
Ye call Me Gracious and trust Me not.
Ye call Me Might and honor Me not.
Ye call Me Just and fear Me not.
If I condemn you, blame Me not.
     –Inscription on the cathedral in Lübeck, Germany

His name was Fleming, and he was a poor Scottish farmer. One day, while trying to make a living for his family, he heard a cry for help coming from a nearby bog. He dropped his tools and ran to the bog.

There, mired to his waist in black muck, was a terrified boy, screaming and struggling to free himself. Farmer Fleming saved the lad from what could have been a slow and terrifying death.

The next day, a fancy carriage pulled up to the Scotsman's sparse surroundings. An elegantly dressed nobleman stepped out and introduced himself as the father of the boy Farmer Fleming had saved.

"I want to repay you," said the nobleman. "You saved my son's life."

"No, I can't accept payment for what I did," the Scottish farmer replied waving off the offer. At that moment, the farmer's own son came to the door of the family hovel.

"Is that your son?" the nobleman asked.

"Yes," the farmer replied proudly.

"I'll make you a deal. Let me provide him with th! e level of education my own son will enjoy. If the lad is anything like his father, he'll no doubt grow to be a man we both will be proud of." And that he did.

Farmer Fleming's son attended the very best schools and in time, graduated from St. Mary's Hospital Medical School in London, and went on to become known throughout the world as the noted Sir Alexander Fleming, the discoverer of Penicillin.

Years afterward, the same nobleman's son who was saved from the bog was stricken with pneumonia.

What saved his life this time? Penicillin.

The name of the nobleman? Lord Randolph Churchill. His son's name?

Sir Winston Churchill.

When You Read the Bible Through

I supposed I knew my Bible,
Reading piecemeal, hit or miss,
Now a bit of John or Matthew,
Now a snatch of Genesis,
Certain chapters of Isaiah,
Certain psalms (the twenty-third),
Twelfth of Romans, First of Proverbs,
Yes, I thought I knew the Word!
But I found that thorough reading
Was a different thing to do,
And the way was unfamiliar
When I read the Bible through.
You who like to play at Bible,
Dip and dabble, here and there,
Just before you kneel, aweary,
And yawn through a hurried prayer;
You who treat the Crown of Writings
As you treat no other book–
Just a paragraph disjointed,
Just a crude impatient look–
Try a worthier procedure,
Try a broad and steady view;
You will kneel in very rapture
When you read the Bible through!
     –Amos R. Wells

To John,
I try to remember the things that are precious to you, and I'd give you money if that would do. But money won't do it, that's not your way. Your money's been for givin' away. Now if you precede me and go to your grave, and the angels knock the clouds about when Jesus comes to save, I'll be standing there to rise with you and go up as you do. And I'll always love you, you'll always be mine. Forever and always, till the end of time. Till the mountains split open with the weight of the sun. We'll rise up together....as one.

 

So I'll let my hair down 'cause that's the way you like it. And I'll keep myself neat and nice for you, and I'll have good food on your table, and I will keep your house in order. And I'll always love you and you'll always be mine. Forever and always, till the end of time. Till the mountains split open with the weight of the sun. We'll rise up together....as one.

 

And I'll pray for you, for your wisdom and understanding and your charity. And even if you've been wrong, and I've known it, you've always been right, because that's God's order. And I'll always love you and you'll always be mine. Forever and always, till the end of time. Till the mountains split open with the weight of the sun. We'll rise up together....as one.

 

And I will smile for you and I'll be kind, and I'll love your babies just as I have loved mine. And when I could give you nothing, God blessed me and gave you a son. And I'll always love you and you'll always be mine. Forever and always, till the end of time. Till the mountains split open with the weight of the sun. We'll rise up together....as one.

 

June Carter Cash

Sometime, Somewhere

Unanswered yet? Faith cannot be unanswered.
Her feet were firmly planted on the rock.
Amid the wildest storm she stands undaunted.
Nor quails before the loudest thunder shock.
She knows Omnipotence has heard her prayer
And cries, It shall be done sometime, somewhere.
Unanswered yet? Nay, do not say ungranted.
Perhaps your part is not yet wholly done.
The work began when your first prayer was uttered,
And God will finish what He has begun.
If you will keep the incense burning there,
His glory you will see, sometime, somewhere.
     –Ophelia Guyon Browning

When I quit this mortal shore
And wander 'round this earth no more,
Don't weep, don't sigh, don't sob.
Maybe I've struck a better job.
And don't go and buy a large bouquet
In which you'll find it hard to pay.
Don't mope around and feel all blue.
I may be better off than you.
If you've got roses, bless your soul,
Just pin one on my button hole
While I'm alive and here today,
Don't wait until I've gone away.
     –Author unknown

"Be careful that nobody spoils your faith through intellectualism or high-sounding nonsense."

Col. 2:8, J. B. Phillips translation

BILLY GRAHAM: IN MY OPINION
A harmless lie? There's no such thing.

Q. When is it wrong to tell a lie, and when is it OK to shade the truth a little? I admit I don't always tell the truth but it's usually about things that don't make any difference.

A.  A lie might not seem important to us -- but in God's eyes there is no such thing as a harmless lie. In the Old Testament, one of the Ten Commandments declares, "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor" (Exodus 20:16). The New Testament says, "Each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor" (Ephesians 4:25).
Why is this? Let me answer by asking you another question: Have you ever asked yourself why you lie -- even when it seems unimportant? One reason may be to build yourself up in the eyes of others -- to make yourself seem more important, for example, or to get them to like you. Or perhaps you lie to get yourself out of some difficulty -- a difficulty you've gotten into because you failed to do something you should have done.
But whatever the reason, have you ever asked yourself what really happens when other people realize you're lying to them? The answer is obvious. Instead of thinking well of you, they look down on you and realize you can't be trusted. Instead of winning their love and respect, you end up with their scorn. The Bible says, "What a man desires is unfailing love; better to be poor than a liar" (Proverbs 19:22).
Begin a new life today

"Neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord"
Romans 8:38-39

Reach out to Him.
He'll be there and He'll see you through.
He will help you grin as you rest in Him.
He will help you speak when you're feeling weak.
He will strengthen you when there's work to do.
He will cast out fear as you persevere.
He will direct your day as you continue to pray.
Reflect on the battle that was won.
You're dead to sin, alive to win.
Let's claim the victory.
Christ Jesus set us free to proclaim
His wondrous story
And give Him all the glory.
     –Author unknown

"The Lord has more truth yet to break forth from His Holy Word…Luther and Calvin were great shining lights in their times, yet they penetrated not the whole counsel of God…Be ready to receive whatever truth shall be made known to you from the written Word of God."
     –Pastor at Leyden to the Pilgrims when they sailed to America

THE CONQUERORS
 
Jesus and Alexander died at thirty-three.
One lived and died for self; one died for you and me;
The Greek died on a throne; the Jew died on a cross;
One's life a triumph seemed; the other but a loss.
One led vast armies forth; the other walked alone.
One shed a whole world's blood; the other gave His own.
One won the world in life and lost it all in death;
The other lost His life to win the whole world's faith.
 
Jesus and Alexander died at thirty-three.
One died in Babylon, and one on Calvary.
One gained all for himself; and one Himself He gave,
One conquered every throne; the other every grave.
The one made himself God, the God made Himself less,
The one lived but to blast, the other but to bless.
When died the Greek, forever fell his throne of swords;
But Jesus died to live forever Lord of lords.
 
Jesus and Alexander died at thirty-three.
The Greek made all men slaves; the Jew made all men free.
One built a throne on blood; the other built on love.
The one was born of earth; the other from above.
One won all this earth, to lose all earth and heaven.
The other gave up all, that all to Him be given.
The Greek forever died; the Jew forever lives.
He loses all who gets, and wins all things who gives.
 
     –Charles Ross Weede

 

HIGHER EDUCATION                                   
                                                                             
I don't have a Ph.D., or credits from Purdue,
But, I have learned a lot in life as I've been passing through.
I have a course of study, perhaps of it you've heard.
A Book known as the Bible, God's own Holy Word.
It teaches how God sent His Son, redeeming sinful man.
In Him believe, by faith receive; not, "Do the best you can."
You'll never need a credit card, because salvation's free.
Accept Christ as your Saviour. How happy you will be.
I'm in my last semester, and I can hardly wait
To wear my brand new cap and gown at Baccalaureate.
When on my graduation day I leave this world of strife,
I'll read on my diploma, "Received Eternal Life!"

     –Author unknown

I NEEDED THE QUIET

I needed the quiet so He drew me aside,
Into the shadows where we could confide,
Away from the bustle where all the day long
I hurried and worried when active and strong.

I needed the quiet though at first I rebelled.
But gently, so gently, my cross He upheld
And whispered so sweetly of spiritual things.
Though weakened in body, my spirit took wings
To heights never dreamed of when active and gay.
He loved me so greatly He drew me away.

I needed the quiet. No prison my bed,
But a beautiful valley of blessings instead–
A place to grow richer in Jesus to hide,
I needed the quiet so He drew me aside.

     –Alice Hansche Mortenson

"The boneless tongue, so small and weak,
      Can crush and kill," declared the Greek.
"The tongue destroys a greater horde,"
      The Turk asserts, "than does the sword."
The Persian proverb wisely saith,
      "A lengthy tongue, an early death."
Or sometimes takes this form instead,
      "Don't let your tongue cut off your head."
"The tongue can speak a word whose speed,"
      say the Chinese, "outstrips the steed."
While Arab sages this impart;
      "The tongue's great storehouse is the heart."
From Hebrew wit the maxim sprung,
      "Though feet should slip, ne'er let the tongue."
The sacred writer crowns the whole,
      "Who keeps the tongue, doth keep his soul."
                                                                               
     –From Charles Spurgeon's "Salt Cellars"

THE BIBLE AND THE TV GUIDE                                       
                                                                             
On the table side by side,
      The Holy Bible and the TV Guide.
One is well-worn but cherished with pride,
      Not the Bible, but the TV Guide.
One is used daily to help folks decide.
      No, it isn't the Bible; it's the TV Guide.
As pages are turned, what shall they see?
      Or what does it matter?  Turn on the TV!
Then confusion reigns and they can't all agree
      On what they shall watch on the old TV.
So they open the book in which they confide,
      No, not the Bible....It's the TV Guide.
The Word of God is seldom read,
     Ere maybe a verse as they fall into bed.
Exhausted and sleepy and tired as can be,
      Not from reading the Bible, but from watching TV.
Then back to the table side by side
      Is the Holy Bible and the TV Guide.
No time for prayer, No time for the Word.
      The plan of salvation is seldom heard.
Forgiveness of sin so full and free
      Is found in the Bible, not TV.

     –Author unknown

IT'S NOBODY'S BUSINESS

It's nobody's business what I drink;
I care not what my neighbors think
Or how many laws they choose to pass,
I'll tell the world I'll have my glass!
Here's one man's freedom cannot be curbed;
My right to drink is undisturbed.

So he drank in spite of law or man,
Then got into his old tin can,
Stepped on the gas and let it go
Down the highway to and fro.
He took the curves at fifty miles
With bleary eyes and a drunken smile.

Not long 'til a car he tried to pass;
Then a crash, a scream and breaking glass.
The other car was upside down
About two miles from the nearest town.

The man was clear, but his wife was caught,
And he needed the help of that drunken sot
Who sat in a maudlin, drunken daze,
And heard the scream and saw the blaze,
But too far gone to save a life
By helping the car from off the wife.

The car was burned, and a mother died,
While a husband wept and a baby cried
And a drunk sat by–and still some think
It's nobody's business what they drink.

     –George Y. Hammond

Reading the Bible

It's one thing to read the Bible through;
Another thing to read to learn and do.
Some read it as their duty once a week,
But no instruction from the Bible seek.
Some read to bring themselves into repute
By showing others how they can dispute.
While others read, because their neighbors do
To see how long 'twill take to read it through.
Some read it for the wonders that are there;
How David killed a lion and a bear.
While others read it with uncommon care,
Hoping to find some contradiction there.
But, read it prayerfully and you will see,
Although men contradict, God's words agree.
For what the early Bible prophets wrote,
We find that Christ and His apostles quote.
So trust no creed that trembles to recall
What has been penned by one and verified by all.
     –Author unknown

He that has light within his own clear breast,
May sit in the centre, and enjoy bright day;
But he that hides a dark soul, and foul thoughts
Benighted walks under the midday sun;
Himself is his own dungeon.
     –John Milton

I asked for strength that I might achieve–
He made me weak that I might obey.
I asked for health that I might do greater things–
I was given grace that I might do better things.
I asked for riches that I might be happy–
I was given poverty that I might be wise.
I asked for power that I might have the praise of men–
I was given weakness that I might feel the need of God.
I asked for all things that I might enjoy life–
I was given life that I might enjoy all things.
I received nothing that I asked for-
All that I hoped for.
My prayer was answered.
     –Author unknown

“If I had only served my God like I served my king!”

     –Cardinal Woolsey on his deathbed

"When wealth is lost, nothing is lost; when health is lost, something is lost; when character is lost, all is lost."

Billy Graham

You can not put one little star in motion,
You can not shape one single forest leaf,
Nor fling a mountain up, nor sink an ocean,
Presumptuous pigmy, large with unbelief!

You can not bring one dawn of regal splendor,
Nor bid the day to shadowy twilight fall,
Nor send the pale moon forth with radiance tender,
And dare you doubt the One who has done all?

     –Ella Wheeler Wilcox

"Courage is contagious. When a brave man takes a stand, the spines of others are stiffened"

Billy Graham

Our Little Lord

Our little Lord, we give thee praise,
     that Thou hast deigned to take our ways.
Born of Mary, a man to be,
     and all the angels sing to thee.
The eternal Father's Son He lay,
     cradled in a crib of hay.
The everlasting God appears
     in our frail flesh and blood and tears.
What the globe could not enwrap,
     nestled lies in Mary's lap.
Just a baby, very wee,
     yet the Lord of all the world is He.
     –Martin Luther

"That crowd that followed Him, that said, 'Hosanna,' they never thought of Him as the Son of God, the Saviour of the world. But that same crowd that said, 'Hosanna,' one day, said 'Crucify Him' the next day."
     –Bishop Rule

You're Writing a Gospel, Someone Has Said…

You're writing a gospel, a chapter a day
By deeds that you do and words that you say.
Men read what you write, whether false or true.
What is the gospel according to you?

     –Author unknown

Marcus Aurelius: Famous Quotes on Character
Waste no more time arguing what a good man should be, be one.

Author Unknown: Famous Quotes on Character
Watch your thoughts; they become words. Watch your words; they become actions. Watch your actions; they become habits. Watch your habits; they become character. Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.

Johann Wolfgang von Goethe: Famous Quotes on Character
We are shaped and fashioned by what we love.

Aristotle: Famous Quotes on Character
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence then, is not an act, but a habit.

Francois Fenelon: Famous Quotes on Character
We can often do more for other men by trying to correct our own faults than by trying to correct theirs.

John Dryden: Famous Quotes on Character
We first make our habits, and then our habits make us.

Arthur Schopenhauer: Famous Quotes on Character
We forfeit three-fourths of ourselves in order to be like other people.

Winston Churchill: Famous Quotes on Character
We make a living by what we get, but we make a life by what we give.

Abraham Lincoln: Famous Quotes on Character
We should be too big to take offense and too noble to give it.

Unknown Author: Famous Quotes on Character
We teach what we live

"I am more afraid of the profanity of the sanctuary than I am of the profanity of the street."

     –Dr. G. Campbell Morgan 

What is the filling of the Holy Spirit?

In order for the Holy Spirit to teach us, guide us, and give assurance, we must walk by means of the Spirit; that is, be
filled with the Spirit (Galatians 5:16).

Walking by the Spirit means to be in fellowship with God. In other words, our relationship with God is not to be hindered by sin.

a.  We are not to grieve the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:30) by having sin in our lives.
b.  We need to have all sins confessed (1 John 1:9).
c.  We are not to quench the Holy Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19). Literally, this means that we are not to resist His leading.

When we are thus in fellowship, God can then accomplish His purpose in our lives.

We are baptized into Christ once (1 Corinthians 12:13) but may be filled many, many times.

Dr. McGee stated that to be filled with the Spirit  "is not an excessvie emotionalism, but that which furnishes the dynamic for living and for accomplishing something for God. When we are filled by the Holy Spirit, it means that we are controlled by the Holy Spirit." Ephesians 5:18 tells us to be filled with the Spirit; Romans 8:14 and Galatians 5:18 talk about being led of
the Spirit; Galatians 5:16 and 25 talk about walking in the Spirit. These are different ways of saying the same thing: a
Christian needs to live in close fellowship with God through His Word and prayer so that He can direct our thoughts, words, and actions.

For more information on this subject, see Dr. McGee's book Through His Spirit: The Person and Unique Work of the Holy Spirit.

"An Atheist Looking for God is like a thief looking for a policeman"

Wyatt Allen

“When a man prays for a corn crop, God expects him to say Amen with a hoe.”
     Bishop Mooson

“The science to which I pinned my faith has failed, and you are beholding an atheist who has lost his faith.”
     –George Bernard Shaw

Interesting note: After debating the great apologist, G. K. Chesterton, for several decades....Shaw called for a priest and requested baptism into the Catholic church at the end of his life.

Thomas Maddux

I had no idea!! (shows my abysmal ignorance of history, I guess). Can you recommend a book or article that references the debate? (I'm hoping to begin a new section of ga.com that is dedicated to apologetics to help former Assembly people who are struggling with faith.)

Margaret, I learned about it from a bunch of atheists at work back in the 70's.  They were complaining about Shaw "losing his nerve".  Later, I read about it in a biography of
G. K. Chesterton.  He was a truly great apologist in the intellectual climate of 1920's and 1930's England.  I don't know that he had formal, moderated debates with Shaw.  Seems to me that they were friends and ran in the same circles, wrote articles for the same magazines, etc..

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

Years ago a lady who prided herself on belonging to the intelligentsia said to me, "I have no use for the Bible, for Christian superstition, and religious dogma. It is enough for me to know that God is love."

"Well," I said, "do you know it?"

"Why of course I do," she said. "We all know that, and that is religion enough for me. I do not need the dogmas of the Bible."

"How did you find out that God is love?" I asked.

"Why," she said, "everybody knows that."

"Do they know it yonder in India?" I asked. "That poor mother in her distress throwing her little babe into the holy Ganges to be eaten by filthy and repulsive crocodiles for her sins–does she know that God is love?"

"Oh well, she is ignorant and superstitious," she replied.

"Those poor wretched negroes in the jungles of Africa, bowing down to gods of wood and stone, and in constant fear of their fetishes, the poor heathen in other countries, do they know that God is love?"

"Perhaps not," she said, "but in a civilized land we all know it."

"But how is it that we know it? Who told us so? Where did we find it out?"

"I do not understand what you mean," she said, "for I’ve always known it."

"Let me tell you this," I answered, "no one in the world ever knew it until it was revealed from heaven and recorded in the Word of God. It is here and nowhere else. It is not found in all the literature of the ancients."

     –From The Epistles of John by Dr. H. A. Ironside

“I wanted to be that man, but it is still true that the world has yet to see what God can do with the man who is fully yielded to Him.”
     –D.L. Moody

I am still determined to be cheerful and happy, in whatever situation I may be; for I have also learned from experience that the greater part of our happiness or misery depends upon our dispositions, and not upon our circumstances.

Martha Washington

From http://www.theologica.blogspot.com/ (http://www.theologica.blogspot.com/)


Commenting on the phrase "What more can you say than to you he has said" in the hymn "How Firm A Foundation".  The quotes if from an upcoming book Suffering and the Sovereignty of God that John Piper and others are editing.  This is from the chapter by David Powlison.

-Dave

---

“What more can he say than to you he has said?" Let that rattle around a minute. I don’t know how you read Scripture. But there is a way to read Scripture that leaves you wishing God had said a whole lot more. How did Satan become evil? Why does Chronicles add zeros to the numbers in Samuel and Kings? How did Jonah avoid asphyxiation? Who wrote the book of Hebrews? And those aren’t even the questions that most often divide and perplex the church. Wouldn’t it have been great if the Lord had slipped in one killer verse that pinned down the eschatological timetable? That resolved once and for all every question about baptism? That specifically told us how to organize church leadership and government? That told us exactly what sort of music to use in worship? That explained how God’s absolute sovereignty neatly dovetails with full human responsibility? Only one more verse! And think what he could have told us with an extra paragraph or chapter! If only the Lord had shortened the genealogies, omitted mention of a few villages in the land distribution, and condensed the spec sheet for the temple’s dimensions, dishware, décor, and duties. Our Bible would be exactly the same length—even shorter—but a hundred of our questions could have been anticipated and definitively answered. Somehow, God in his providence didn’t choose to do that.

It comes down to what you are looking for as you read and listen. When you get to what most matters, to life-and-death issues, what more can he say than to you he has said? Betrayal by someone you trusted? Aggressive, incurable cancer? Your most persistent sin? A disfiguring disability? The meaning and purpose of your life? Good and evil? Love and hate? Truth and lie? Hope in the face of death? Mercy in the face of sin? Justice in the face of unfairness? The character of God? The dynamics of the human heart? What more can he say than to you he has said? Listen well. There is nothing more that he needed to say.

"Your first 40 years you have the face God gave you...the next 40 years you wear the face you gave yourself"

Author Unknown

THE HOUND OF HEAVEN

I fled Him, down the nights and down the days;
I fled Him, down the arches of the years;
I fled Him, down the labyrinthine ways
   Of my own mind; and in the mist of tears
I hid from Him, and under running laughter.
            Up vistaed hopes I sped;
            And shot, precipitated,
Adown Titanic glooms of chasmèd fears,
From those strong Feet that followed, followed after.
           But with unhurrying chase,
           And unperturbéd pace,
       Deliberate speed, majestic instancy,
           They beat–and a Voice beat
           More instant than the Feet–
       "All things betray thee, who betrayest Me."

   I pleaded, outlaw-wise,
By many a hearted casement, curtained red,
    Trellised with intertwining charities;
(For, though I knew His love Who followèd,
            Yet was I sore adread
Lest, having Him, I must have naught beside.)
But, if one little casement parted wide,
    The gust of His approach would clash it to:
    Fear wist not to evade, as Love wist to pursue.
Across the margent of the world I fled,
    And troubled the gold gateways of the stars,
    Smiting for shelter on their clangèd bars:
            Fretted to dulcet jars
And silvern chatter the pale ports o' the moon.
I said to Dawn: Be sudden–to Eve: Be soon;
    With thy young skiey blossoms heap me over
            From this tremendous Lover–
Float thy vague veil about me, lest He see!
   I tempted all His servitors, but to find
My own betrayal in their constancy,
In faith to Him their fickleness to me,
    Their traitorous trueness, and their loyal deceit.
To all swift things for swiftness did I sue;
    Clung to the whistling mane of every wind.
          But whether they swept, smoothly fleet,
        The long savannahs of the blue;
            Or whether, Thunder-driven,
          They clanged his chariot 'thwart a heaven,
Plashy with flying lightnings round the spurn o' their feet:–
    Fear wist not to evade as Love wist to pursue.
            Still with unhurrying chase,
            And unperturbéd pace,
        Deliberate speed, majestic instancy,
            Came on the following Feet,
            And a Voice above their beat–
        "Naught shelters thee, who wilt not shelter Me."

CONTINUED

CONTINUED

I sought no more that after which I strayed
            In face of man or maid;
But still within the little children's eyes
            Seems something, something that replies,
They at least are for me, surely for me!
I turned me to them very wistfully;
But just as their young eyes grew sudden fair
            With dawning answers there,
Their angel plucked them from me by the hair.
"Come then, ye other children, Nature's–share
With me" (said I) "your delicate fellowship;
            Let me greet you lip to lip,
            Let me twine you with caresses,
                Wantoning
            With our Lady-Mother's vagrant tresses,
                Banqueting
            With her in her wind-walled palace,
            Underneath her azured dais,
            Quaffing, as your taintless way is,
                From a chalice
Lucent-weeping out of the dayspring."
                So it was done:
I in their delicate fellowship was one–
Drew the bolt of Nature's secrecies.
            I knew all the swift importings
            On the wilful face of skies;
            I knew how the clouds arise
            Spuméd of the wild sea-snortings;
                All that's born or dies
            Rose and drooped with; made them shapers
Of mine own moods, or wailful or divine;
            With them joyed and was bereaven.
            I was heavy with the even,
            When she lit her glimmering tapers
            Round the day's dead sanctities.
            I laughed in the morning's eyes.
I triumphed and I saddened with all weather,
            Heaven and I wept together,
And its sweet tears were salt with mortal mine;
Against the red throb of its sunset-heart
            I laid my own to beat,
            And share commingling heat;
But not by that, by that, was eased my human smart.
In vain my tears were wet on Heaven's grey cheek.
For ah! we know not what each other says,
            These things and I; in sound I speak–
Their sound is but their stir, they speak by silences.
Nature, poor stepdame, cannot slake my drouth;
            Let her, if she would owe me,
Drop yon blue bosom-veil of sky, and show me
            The breasts o' her tenderness:
Never did any milk of hers once bless
                My thirsting mouth.
                Nigh and nigh draws the chase,
                With unperturbèd pace,
            Deliberate speed, majestic instancy;
                And past those noised Feet
                A voice comes yet more fleet–
            "Lo! naught contents thee, who content'st not Me."

CONTINUED

CONTINUED

Naked I wait Thy love's uplifted stroke!
My harness piece by piece Thou hast hewn from me,
                And smitten me to my knee;
            I am defenceless utterly.
            I slept, methinks, and woke,
And, slowly gazing, find me stripped in sleep.
In the rash lustihead of my young powers,
            I shook the pillaring hours
And pulled my life upon me; grimed with smears,
I stand amid the dust o' the mounded years–
My mangled youth lies dead beneath the heap.
My days have crackled and gone up in smoke,
Have puffed and burst as sun-starts on a stream.
            Yea, faileth now even dream
The dreamer, and the lute the lutanist.
Even the linked fantasies, in whose blossomy twist
I swung the earth a trinket at my wrist,
Are yielding; cords of all too weak account
For earth with heavy griefs so overplussed.
            Ah! is Thy love indeed
A weed, albeit an amaranthine weed,
Suffering no flowers except its own to mount?
            Ah! must–
            Designer infinite!–
Ah! must Thou char the wood ere Thou can'st limn with it?
My freshness spent its wavering shower i' the dust;
And now my heart is as a broken fount,
Wherein tear-drippings stagnate, spilt down ever
            From the dank thoughts that shiver
Upon the sighful branches of my mind.
            Such is; what is to be?
The pulp so bitter, how shall taste the rind?
I dimly guess what Time in mists confounds;
Yet ever and anon a trumpet sounds
From the hid battlements of Eternity;
Those shaken mists a space unsettle, then
Round the half-glimpséd turrets slowly wash again.
            But not ere him who summoneth
            I first have seen, enwound
With glooming robes purpureal, cypress-crowned;
His name I know, and what his trumpet saith.
Whether man's heart or life it be which yields
            Thee harvest, must Thy harvest-fields
            Be dunged with rotten death?

                Now of that long pursuit
                Comes on at hand the bruit;
            That Voice is round me like a bursting sea:
               "And is thy earth so marred,
                Shattered in shard on shard?
            Lo, all things fly thee, for thou fliest Me!
            Strange, piteous, futile thing!
Wherefore should any set thee love apart?
Seeing none but I makes much of naught" (He said),
"And human love needs human meriting:
            How hast thou merited–
Of all man's clotted clay the dingiest clot?
            Alack, thou knowest not
How little worthy of any love thou art!
Whom wilt thou find to love ignoble thee,
            Save Me, save only Me?
All which I took from thee I did but take,
            Not for thy harms,
But just that thou might'st seek it in My arms.
            All which thy child's mistake
Fancies as lost, I have stored for thee at home:
            Rise, clasp My hand, and come!"
    Halts by me that footfall:
    Is my gloom, after all,
Shade of His hand, outstretched caressingly?
    "Ah, fondest, blindest, weakest,
    I am He Whom thou seekest!
Thou dravest love from thee, who dravest Me."

     –Francis Thompson

"The following notice appeared in a recent addition of the Sunday bulletin of St. Thomas the Apostle Church.
 Now here it is:

To make it possible for everyone to attend church next Sunday,

 Cots will be placed in the vestibule for those who say that Sunday is the only day they can sleep in.

 We will have steel helmets for those who say the roof would cave in if they ever came to church.

 Blankets will be furnished for those who think the church is too cold and fans for those who think it's too hot.

We will have hearing aids for those who say the pastor speaks too softly and cotton for those who say he preaches too loudly.
 
Score cards will be available for those who wish to list the hypocrites present.

 Some relatives will be in attendance for those who like to go visiting on Sundays.

 There will be TV dinners for those who can't go to church and cook dinner too.

 One section will be devoted to trees and grass for those who like to seek God in nature.
 
And finally, the sanctuary will be decorated with both Christmas poinsettias and Easter lilies for those who have never seen the church without them."

     –B.E. Fitzgerald

Our thoughts lie open to Thy sight;
And naked to Thy glance;
Our secret sins are in the light
Of Thy pure countenance.

     –John G. Whittier

“Secret sin down here is open scandal in heaven.”
     –Dr. Lewis Chafer

WHY?
 
Why must God's children suffer?
Why must we feel pain?
Why must we keep on fighting
When it seems, we fight in vain?
 
Why do the ones who do not choose
To follow where He's led
Seem to walk an easy road
When a hard path we must tread?
 
Why does He give the riches here
To those who never heed?
Doesn't He see His own dear ones
Who really are in need?
 
So when they seem to sneer at us
When we speak of life above,
Remember, precious child, God chastens
those He loves.
 
God only sends these trials
To those He really loves.
His children will get their rewards
In Heaven up above.
 
So, though for now I'm tested,
Though I'm sick as I can be,
I know my Father really loves,
Because He chastens me.
 
     –By a 17-year-old girl from Grand Haven, Michigan
 

It's easier to preach than to practice;
It's easier to say than to do.
Most sermons are heard by the many,
But taken to heart by the few.

     –Author unknown

He made the forests whence there sprung
The tree on which His body hung;

He died upon a cross of wood
Yet made the hill on which it stood!

The sky which darkened o’er His head
By Him above the earth was spread;

The sun which hid from Him its face
By His decree was poised in space!

     –Author unknown

"I have a little bit of–I don't suppose you'd call it a poem–but someone has refined the statement that Matthew Henry made concerning the creation of Eve. And since we're talking now about Sarah, the wife of Abraham, why I think it's proper to read this at this particular time. Will you listen?

 'Not from his head, that she might rule over him,
 not from his feet that she might trample on him,
 but from his side that she might be equal to him,
from under his arm that he might protect her,
 and from under his heart that he might love her.

' And that may I say is the true marriage relationship as given in the creation of Eve and now we see it exemplified in the life of Sarah."

     –J. Vernon McGee

I'm Not Growing Old
They say that I am growing old.
I've heard them tell it times untold,
In language plain and bold–
But I'm NOT growing old.
This frail old shell in which I dwell
Is growing old, I know full well–
But I am not the shell.
What if my hair is turning grey?
Grey hairs are honorable, they say.
What if my eyesight's growing dim?
I still can see to follow Him
Who sacrificed His life for me
Upon the Cross of Calvary.
What should I care if Time's old plow
Has left its furrows on my brow?
Another house not made by hand,
Awaits me in the Glory Land.
What though I falter in my walk?
I still can tread the Narrow Way,
I still can watch and praise and pray.
My hearing may not be so keen
As in the past it may have been,
Still, I can hear my Saviour say
In whispers soft, "This is the way."
The outward man–do what I can
To lengthen out his life's short span–
Shall perish, and return to dust,
As everything in nature must.
The inward man, the Scriptures say,
Is growing stronger every day.
Then how can I be growing old
When safe within my Saviour's fold?
Ere long my soul shall fly away,
And leave this tenement of clay.
"This robe of flesh I'll drop, and rise
To seize the everlasting prize"–
I'll meet you on the Streets of Gold,
And PROVE that I'm not growing old.

     –John E. Roberts

WOULD YOU HIRE THIS PREACHER?

"One of the toughest tasks a church faces is choosing a good minister. A member of an official Board undergoing this painful process finally lost his patience. He watched the Pastoral Relations Committee reject applicant after applicant for some fault, alleged or otherwise. It was time for a bit of soul searching on the part of the committee. So he stood up and read a letter purporting to be from another applicant and this is the letter:

'Gentlemen: Understanding your pulpit is vacant, I would like to apply for the position. I have many qualifications. I’ve been a preacher with much success and also had some success as a writer. Some say I’m a good organizer. I’ve been a leader most places I’ve been. I’m over 50 years of age. I have never preached in one place for more than three years. In some places I’ve left town after my work has caused a riot and disturbances. I must admit that I’ve been in jail three or four times, but not because of any real wrongdoing. My health is not good, though I still get a great deal done. The churches I’ve preached in have been small, though located in several large cities. I’ve not got along well with religious leaders in towns where I’ve preached. In fact, some have threatened me and even attacked me physically. I am not too good at keeping records.  I’ve been known to forget whom I have baptized. However, if you can use me, I shall do my best for you.'

"The Board member looked over to the committee. 'Well, what do you think? Shall we call him?'

"The good church folk were aghast. Call an unhealthy, trouble-making, absent-minded, ex-jailbird? Was the Board member crazy? Who signed the application? Who had such colossal nerve?

"The Board member eyed them all keenly before he answered. 'It’s signed, The Apostle Paul.' And may I say to you, friends, it does have a message in it, does it not?"

     –Author unknown

 "The most important thing about a man is what he thinks about God." Jesus Christ is my God, I live my life trying to serve him, though I often fall so short. But no matter how far I fall, I never fall out of His grace, and He always takes me back with open arms. That's my life in a nut shell. "

A.W. Tozar

Tell God

Tell God all that is in your heart, as one unloads one's heart, its pleasures and its pains, to a dear friend. Tell Him your troubles, that He may comfort you; tell Him your joys, that He may sober them; tell Him your longings, that He may purify them; tell Him your dislikes, that He may help you to conquer them; talk to Him of your temptations, that He may shield you from them; show Him the wounds of your heart, that He may heal them; lay bare your indifference to good, your depraved tastes for evil, your instability. Tell Him how self-love makes you unjust to others, how vanity tempts you to be insincere, how pride disguises you to yourself as to others.
 
If you thus pour out all your weaknesses, needs, troubles, there will be no lack of what to say. You will never exhaust the subject. It is continually being renewed. People who have no secrets from each other never want for subjects of conversation. They do not weigh their words, for there is nothing to be held back; neither do they seek for something to say. They talk out of the abundance of the heart, without consideration, just what they think. Blessed are they who attain to such familiar, unreserved intercourse with God.

     –Fenelon

May I Say
 
His Only Son
And they came to the place which God had told them of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood. And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me….And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, and said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son. (Genesis 22:9-12, 15, 16)

I have a question to ask: Did Abraham do it? No, he did not offer his son, but God says to him, "Because you have done this thing…." You see, Abraham believed God, and he went far enough to let you and me know–God already knew–and to let the created universe know that he was willing to give his son. And so God counted it to him that he had done it. Abraham is justified by faith, but he is also justified before men by his works. He demonstrated that he had that faith.

And "hast not withheld thy son, thine only son." Notice how God plays upon that–because He gave His only Son.

Through this incident, God is making it clear that there will have to be a Man to stand in the gap, there will have to be a Man capable of becoming the Savior of the race if anyone is to be saved. That is a great lesson given to us in this chapter. Abraham said that God would provide Himself a Lamb, and they found a ram and offered it. But God did provide a Lamb nineteen hundred years later in Christ. God stayed Abraham's hand and did not let him go through with the sacrifice of Isaac because it would have been wrong. God spared Abraham's son, but God did not spare His own Son but gave Him up freely for us all.

From Edited Messages on Genesis by J. Vernon McGee
 

“Prayer is not overcoming God’s reluctance. It is laying hold of His willingness.”
     –George Muller

Do not worry about your difficulties in Mathematics. I can assure you mine are still greater.
Albert Einstein

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.
Albert Einstein,

The ideals which have lighted my way, and time after time have given me new courage to face life cheerfully, have been Kindness, Beauty, and Truth. The trite subjects of human efforts, possessions, outward success, luxury have always seemed to me contemptible.
Albert Einstein

"One of the paradoxes of this age is that it is the age of pacifism, but not the age of peace."
      –G. K. Chesterton

"The Antichrist will come disguised as the great humanitarian. He will talk peace, prosperity, and plenty, not as a means to lead us to God, but as ends in themselves. He will explain guilt away psychologically, make men shrink in shame if their fellowmen say they are not broad-minded and liberal. He will spread the lie that men will never be better until they make society better."
     –Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

If the rapture had occurred in the first century preceding the tribulation which the book of Revelation describes, they were assured of deliverance. By contrast, those sealed out of the twelve tribes of Israel in 7:4 clearly go through the time of trouble. This implies the rapture of the church before the time of trouble referred to as the great tribulation. Such a promise of deliverance to them would seemingly have been impossible if the rapture of the church were delayed until the end of the tribulation prior to the second coming of Christ and the establishment of the kingdom."
     –From The Revelation of Jesus Christ by Dr. John Walvoord

um, so the antichrist will be an open-minded liberal? where does the bible teach that?

here is another quote that clarifies what the good bishop thinks about the evils of being broad-minded and liberal:


if we could just get back to those good ole book burning days, we wouldn't have all these pesky liberals around who weaken the political power of the catholic church :)

i hope i'm not coming off as overly antagonistic. i just want to challenge the idea that 'real christians' must march in political lock-step with conservative republicans. and that psychology is the tool of the anti-christ  ::)

brian

( i just want to challenge the idea that 'real christians' must march in political lock-step with conservative republicans. and that psychology is the tool of the anti-christ  ::)

brian

I think assigning Christianity exclusively to any political party is dangerous.

Psychology / Reasoning can be used for great good and it can be used for great evil...just depends on who is the main influence of your life.

Buck

It was (Charles) Spurgeon who noticed a weather vane that a farmer had on his barn. It was an unusual weather vane, for on it the farmer had the words, GOD IS LOVE. Mr. Spurgeon asked him, ‘Do you mean by this that God’s love is as changeable as the wind?’ The farmer shook his head. ‘No,’ he said, ‘I do not mean that God’s love changes like that. I mean that whichever way the wind blows, God is love.'”
     –Dr. J. Vernon McGee,

Brian and Buck,

I heartily agree that the "all Christians should be Republicans" idea is seriously flawed.  Political parties, after all, are huge conglomerations of people with different ideas and agendas.  The Republican party includes at least:

1. Millions of Christians who feel it is the closest party to their more traditional moral values.

 2. Neo-Cons who are very secular but are pretty close to Ayn Rand's Libertarian ideas.

3. Real Libertarians who vote Republican because they know that Libertarians very rarely win elections, so they vote for the lesser of two evils.

 4. Rockefeller, (big bucks) Republicans who feel that the Republicans create a better legal/economic environment for doing business.

 5. Lincoln Club Republicans. These folks are homosexuals that understand that right now the Republicans are more likely to keep taxes down and defend the country against terrorists.

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

A Detestable Young Drunk
George Mueller had not always lived a life of faith. As a young man in Prussia (in today's Germany) he was busy pursuing his own pleasures. When he was fourteen and his mother lay dying, he was out partying and getting drunk with his friends. By sixteen he was a liar, a thief, a swindler, a drunkard, and in jail. Yet, God worked in the young man's soul and brought him to Himself. While at the University of Halle in 1825, he left behind the profligacy and self-seeking of his old life and became totally devoted to serving his Lord. Humility came to mark Mueller's life, for he depended on God for everything, viewing himself as a tool in the hands of the Master Workman.

By 1829, Mueller had left his native Prussia and gone to London to train as a missionary to the Jews. However, in England the Lord directed him along other paths, and by 1832 he was pastoring a Brethren congregation in Bristol, England. Bristol would be the center of his ministry for the next sixty-six years.


Influenced by Pietism
At Bristol, Mueller began reading a biography of a great leader of the "Pietism" movement, A. H. . Francke, who had founded an orphan house at Halle in 1696. Francke's orphanage became the largest enterprise for orphans then existing in the world, and he had trusted in God for every provision. As Mueller began to work with the poor in Bristol, he too wanted to trust the Lord and bring every need to Him in prayer.

A year after coming to Bristol, Mueller had established two Sunday Schools, two adult schools, and six day schools. In 1834 he founded the Scriptural Knowledge Institute. Debts were not allowed for this work of the Lord, and the "patronage of the World" was not to be accepted. The Lord prospered the work. By 1880 the S.K.I. was responsible for 72 day schools with 7000 students in Bristol as well as in Italy, Spain, and South America.

Homes for Orphans
As work among the poor in Bristol grew, Mueller believed he should open an orphan house. Within a year, one hundred orphans were being cared for; by 1870, the orphanges had multiplied and two thousand children were being cared for.

It's God's Concern
The history of the Bristol orphanges is page after page of answered prayer. Nothing was too small to bring to the Lord in prayer, for nothing was too small to be under God's care. In his prayers, Mueller would confidently set his need and his case before God: He is their Father, and therefore has pledged Himself, as it were, to provide for them; and I have only to remind Him of the need of these poor children in order to have it supplied.

An Unfailing Faith
It was this unshakable faith in God's providing hand which made the Bristol orphanages so unique. Some leaders visiting the orphanage asked the matron of the home, "Of course you cannot carry these institutions without a good stock of funds. . . Have you a good stock?" The matron quietly replied, "Our funds are deposited in a bank which cannot break." Tears came to the eyes of the visitors, who gave a donation to the work -- a very timely gift because at the moment there were no funds on hand! The orphanage never accumulated a surplus of funds, but daily relied on the Lord for their provisions.

When he was seventy, George Mueller turned over the management of the orphanages to his son-in-law and began a series of worldwide missionary tours. From 1875 to 1892 he traveled 250,000 miles and addressed 3 million people in forty-two countries. He died in Bristol at the age of 93. Though much money had passed through his hands he did not accumulate wealth for himself. His life demonstrated what extraordinary ministry can be accomplished through the combination of tender compassion for hungry and homeless children, unshakable faith in God, and practical action to meet need.

Robbing Factories
The homes emphasized education and the development of Christian character. The quality of education was so high that Mueller was accused of educating the poor beyond their station and robbing the factories and mines of their labor. Boys were kept in their homes until they were fourteen and girls until they were seventeen. All were trained in some work so they had jobs when they left the orphanage. Boys were often apprenticed to some trade, and the girls were prepared for domestic service, nursing, or teaching.

 

This was a particularly refreshing article, especially noting the bolded sentences.

If your lips would keep from slips,
Five things to observe with care:
To whom you speak, of whom you speak,
And how, and when, and where.

     –Author unknown

It is encouraging to see what God can do.

If God gives you a watch, are you honoring Him more by asking Him what time it is or by simply consulting the watch?
A. W. Tozer

One hundred religious persons knit into a unity by careful organizations do not constitute a church any more than eleven dead men make a football team. The first requisite is life, always.
A. W. Tozer

Refuse to be average. Let your heart soar as high as it will.
A. W. Tozer

The devil is a better theologian than any of us and is a devil still.
A. W. Tozer

The vague and tenuous hope that God is too kind to punish the ungodly has become a deadly opiate for the consciences of millions.
A. W. Tozer

The Word of God well understood and religiously obeyed is the shortest route to spiritual perfection. And we must not select a few favorite passages to the exclusion of others. Nothing less than a whole Bible can make a whole Christian
A.W. Tozer

Tozer seems to be implying that "whole Christians" should be able to do this. In reality, Jesus is the only one who was able to. By His perfect obedience he accomplished a perfect righteousness for all believers and the Father accepts it on our behalf as "spiritual perfection"--thanks be to God!

My take on it is that Tozer is implying that spiritual perfection is something that we should be striving for.
I agree with you...Jesus did it for us.
I have read that President Lincoln used to attend church services unannounced because he did not want any preacher to patronize him. One time an aid asked Lincoln what he really thought of a particular church service. Lincoln expressed dissappointment and stated that the preached word of God will inspire a man to acts greater than himself.
IMO I think this is what Tozer was talking about.

 Hi Brian!

   This is in response to your comments on the above quote:

  I disagree with Bishop Sheen's prediction above that the "Anti-Christ" will be some kind of humanistic liberal, though he most likely will use such to gain his ends.

  The Anti-Christ is described as a "Beast" and this gives a clear indication that he will be the exact opposite of a humanist.  History shows what his character will be like in guys like Nero, Alexander, Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc.

  These modern "Beasts" used liberal/humanistic atheistic philosophy (Nietzche, Marx, Mao) as a philosophical basis for advancing their murderous regimes.  Now, this is far to the left of the likes of Ted Kennedy, but guys like Kennedy faciliate their farther to the left cousins via their pursuit of the appeasment of evil.

   Chamberlain of England during Hitler's rise is a perfect example of how liberalism/humanism can actually help Beast like leaders.  He tried to appease Hilter, as Kennedy did (liberals in the West)  with the Soviet Union later on.  It took a conservative Churchill and Ronald Reagan to bring these respective anti-christ nations down.

  It is my belief that humanism/psychology without a basic biblical understanding of evil and the need for redemption of mankind will be a useful tool for the Anti-Christ, and eventually will be a rude awakening to those so used (Chamberlain eventually realized Hiter had used him).

  The other hand, a conservative kind of Christian religion that only values theological orthodoxy without any care for an individual human needs is not the proper response to "Godless humanism."  The Pharisee is a good example of this kind of "conservative (defender of traditional values) because rigid  belief without honest reflection re. my own human experience leads to all kinds of hypocrisy and "anti-christ" behaviors.

  One of our newest beast types, Ahmadinejad of Iran, has a "conservative/fundamentalist" religious bent, but his philosophy is absent any kind of concern for humanity at all.  If he gets his nuclear bomb it will be because of liberal appeasers in Europe who think one can negoiate with such evil types.  These liberals are well intentioned, but their rejection of biblical moral judgments  (read the axis of evil) will think they can persuade this nut.

                                                         God Bless,  Mark C.

Mark,

By now I suppose you have heard that our Iranian friend has signed a law that:

1. Imposes "Islamic dress" on the people of Iran next year.

2. Imposes the requirement that each minority religion in Iran wear an identifying badge.  The one for Jews is to be yellow...reminiscent of the Yellow star of David imposed by the Nazis.

I would not be surprised if the Israeli's nuke they guy if this goes into effect.  The article I read said it would be next year.

This is scary.

Thomas Maddux

Hi Tom!

  Yes, I did hear about that.  Very scary indeed  >:D!  Fortunately I've read the book and know the ending or I would be very frightened indeed!

  I'm presently reading "The Rise And Fall Of The Third Reich" and this why the analogy between Nazism and this kook came to mind so readily.  Nobody took the ramblings of Hitler very seriously when he got started, but you can bet that Israel has learned from history that pacifism in the face of this kind of evil is suicidal.

                                                                 God Bless,  Mark C.

 

      “The less we read the Word of God, the less we desire to read it, and the less we pray, the less we desire to pray.”
 George Muller quote
 

Thank you Uncle Buck for this quote:  It is so TRUE...

Continue on with this idea: The less we desire to read it, the more likely we slide further back into our sinful nature. With that vacuum needing to be filled, more prodigal we become.

“The probability of life originating from accident is comparable to the unabridged dictionary resulting from an explosion in a printing shop.”
     –Dr. Edwin Conklin

Never hold discussions with the monkey when the organ grinder is in the room.

The price of greatness is responsibility.


We make a living by what we get, we make a life by what we give.


Never, never, never believe any war will be smooth and easy, or that anyone who embarks on the strange voyage can measure the tides and hurricanes he will encounter. The statesman who yields to war fever must realize that once the signal is given, he is no longer the master of policy but the slave of unforeseeable and uncontrollable events.
 
Sir Winston Churchill

There are three things that are true in Dan Brown's book The Da Vinci Code that Christians need to reckon with:

1.  Paris is in France.
2.  London is in England.
3.  Leonardo da Vinci painted a bunch of pictures.

(heard on the radio so I didn't catch the attribution).

Thanks to RS for spelling correction.

WHAT GOD HATH PROMISED
 
God hath not promised skies always blue,
Flower-strewn pathways all our lives through;
God hath not promised sun without rain,
Joy without sorrow, peace without pain.

God hath not promised we shall not know
Toil and temptation, trouble and woe;
He hath not told us we shall not bear
Many a burden, many a care.

God hath not promised smooth roads and wide,
Swift, easy travel, needing no guide;
Never a mountain, rocky and steep,
Never a river, turbid and deep.

But God hath promised strength for the day,
Rest for the laborer, light for the way,
Grace for the trials, help from above,
Unfailing sympathy, undying love.

     –Annie Johnson Flint

The debate sparked by the Iraq war over American rashness vs. European escapism is dwarfed by what the world now faces ... the common danger of a wider war merging into a war of civilizations against the backdrop of a nuclear-armed Middle East. ... We now know that we face the imperative of building a new world order or potential global catastrophe.

-Henry Kissinger

"The demagogue is usually sly,
a detractor of others,
a professor of humility and disinterestedness,
who acts in corners and avoids open and manly expositions of his course,
appeals to passions and prejudices rather than to reason,
and is in all respects a man of intrigue and deception,
of sly and cunning and management."

James Fenimore Cooper

Jesus, Savior, pilot me
Over life's tempestuous sea:
Unknown waves before me roll,
Hiding rocks and treach'rous shoal;
Chart and compass came from Thee–
Jesus, Savior, pilot me!

     –Edward Hopper

Folks,

Here is a quote from Steve Hassan's, Realeasing the Bonds:

"In any case, when a leader with a questional background organizes a group so that power is totally centralized, you can assume that a destructive cult is being formed.  World-renowned Christian apologist Norman Geisler puts it this way: 'Whenever you have an individual who claims a direct pipeline with God and has no accountability, if you don't have a cult today, you will have one tomorrow'."

Tom

People who pray consistently freeze to death, too.

Though I assume any story involving Saint Peter at the gates of heaven is intended for humor, not sound theological thinking.

Thanks Yakamoto. Here's one more:

The woodworker accidentally sat down on his automatic sander and got a little behind in his work.

Also, there was the optician who fell into the lensmaking machine and made a spectacle of himself.

Thanks for the quotes theyre very funny. I got a real laugh out ot the one with the 3yr old resisting a rest. For some reason my daughter has been resisting a rest for the last couple days :rofl:

OK, the lessons, I came away from this story are these:

1.  Make broad, sweeping generalization judgments against those who make minor infractions.  Never mind, that the person may not have counted the change he got back, if he didn't correct it assume he is a crook and have nothing to do with him.

2.  If you make such an infraction, such as keeping a quarter that isn't yours, be sure to condemn yourself for all the people your stumbled, won't go to your church, and may even refuse to come to Christ.  The gospel is so fragile, any little slip-up might turn folks away.


To me, a better principle of life might be this:  Try to live upright in all of your dealings.  If you screw up, try to make amends the best you can.  If you can't make amends, move on.  Trust God that He can work in spite of your weakness and daily failures.

Yes, that quote I made would turn folks from the BB and Christianity if they didn't realize that I was making it all toungue-in-cheek.  I don't think the gospel is so fragile that any little slip-up would turn folks away.  That is one of the exceptions I take with this story.

This story reminds me of the one I heard a few times in the Assembly:  sin is like nails in the soul.  God can forgive you by pulling the nails out but the holes will always be there.  Stories like this never helped me with my moral defects.  It only condemned me and made me feel excessively guilty for having them.

  Bingo Dave!

     Guilt and fear, as a method of motivating Christians to "overcome" their normal human weakness, is a poor means to producing good character.  Continual homilies that stress good moral choices (or all will be lost) from those who first came to Christ as helpless sinners seems to suggest that once a person gets saved by grace that somehow the new child of God must complete his own salvation----- in other words, there still is a large gap in my relationship with God that can only be filled in the perfection of my own character.

   Even when you add to the message of Christians fearfully taking responsibility for their own weak humanity the phrase, "but God has the grace to help you make the right choice", the full weight of gaining "the Victory" still rests with the believer in the final analysis of this kind of thinking.

   I agree with Dave that it makes the Gospel appear to be fragile and weak (as indeed it would be) if it is based on how good a Christian I can be.  The Gospel is about what God has done in Christ for a very needy and weak humanity.  The Gospel is about how God loves me inspite of all of my liabilities and failings, and that never changes for the whole duration of my Christian life!

   What the super achiever believer message can produce is an Assm. like GG, or a Ted Haggard, where their own desperate inner failings (becoming outer failings), really make a stink as the world judges Christians and their faith as a bunch of baloney.

   Yes, Christian character is important, and it does have an impact in our world, but guilt/fear motivational messages are a poor substitute for a firm foundation in the facts of my completed salvation.  The "fruit of the Holy Spirit is love, joy, peace, etc.", and it is these that spring from the removal of guilt and fear via the Gospel that really impact the world around us.   

 Any Mormon or JW might feel the guilty need to give the quarter back to the bus driver (this contrived story, btw, would never, ever, happen in the real world) and thus win the driver over to their religion, but it would never point to the message of eternal life.

                                                     He Is Risen!                   Mark C.

Hi Yakomoto,

  I agree with your statement re. the "reconciliation of the two"----- the two being our lives and the full free gospel.  The bible does tell us that the truly saved should live holy lives.

  Very few bible believing Christians would ever try to deny the importance of free salvation or godliness, but as you say, the issue is how to "reconcile" these two and really understsand this issue.

  Those who try and solve this difficulty by stressing the believers need to "pursue sanctification" by a different means than God's grace find themselves using the age old method of heaping guilt, as did your rather contrived story re. the Preacher and the Bus Driver.

   There are some basic concepts that must be grasped if we are going to experience joy and peace in our lives, but our self determinations all fired up via guilt producing "you oughtta" messages is a poor substitute.

 1.) God has already reconciled us in Christ Jesus, and yet a full agreement between our actual lives and that salvation must wait until Heaven.       We could never make peace with God or make holiness "real in our lives" on our very best day of making good choices. 

   2.)  When I, like the new preacher in town, am all concerned with how much others see in me true holiness for--- "we are the only bible some will ever read"---- the focus is on "me" not the Gospel of grace that saves sinners.   We share the human failings of all those around us---- the only difference between saint and sinner is the Gospel, not my ability to perfect my character.

  3.) Guilt laced homilies create self introspection, even when you try to add in the idea that "God helps those that try harder" by giving his "provision."   Failure to perfect ones character in this theology can only be the "fault" of the believer due to the fact that God has promised "the victory".

   4.)  The above method produces the very opposite of what God's grace intends in our lives.   As I John 4:18 says, "The one who fears is not made perfect in love."  "Fear has to do with punishment", as in always trying to live up to standards of conduct to earn a sanctified life.  It produces anxiety, and depression (vs peace and joy) if I live in the constant awareness of my character flaws and that souls will be lost if I don't fix these flaws.  Why? because we are so far from expressing the perfect love of God in our day to day lives.

   I hope this leads to some helpful conversation.            God Bless,  Mark C.

                 BTW, Yakomoto:  With this name I imagine you are of Japanese descent?  Are you possibly now living in Japan?  Did you see the start of the Baseball season in Japan with the game between Boston and Oakland?

     

There are some threads on this bb that always give me a good chuckle. There is one thread in particular that I read when I need a good laugh. It is called "The Great Carob Deception". It was started by paul hohulin on April 24, 2003. It is about the 9th last page under “Any and All Topics”. So if any of you want a good chuckle, I recommend reading the entire thread. Below is the quote of the first posting:

"The Great Carob Deception"

Dictionary Definitions

Carob-1.an evergreen tree of the Mediterranean area. 2. its long, edible, fleshy seed pod, used especially as fodder.

Fodder-coarse food for cattle, horses, sheep, etc., as cornstalks, hay, and straw.

Chocolate-a paste, powder, sirup, or bar made from cacao seeds that have been ground and roasted.


One of the deceptions perpetrated in brothers and sisters houses is what I call the great carob deception.  This is one deception that I didn't buy for one minute.  It took just one bite of a piece of a piece of carob and I knew instantly that it defininitely was not a chocolate substitute.  We were told that chocolate was poisonous and that carob could replace our cravings for chocolate.

It was quite entertaining to see the different concoctions that the leaders would come up with to make this substance more palatable.  The final recipe involved putting orange rinds, a lot of honey, a lot of lemon, and two cups of sawdust into a finished product that was basically carob particle board.  I actually saw people eat these bars.  Somehow eating things that tasted incredibly bad was a mark of some kind of spiritual attainment.  The worst part of the deal was that people that were trying to learn how to serve others would actually stick these things in your lunch whether you wanted them to or not.
It was very difficult explaining to other teachers at the lunch table at school, what the various substances in my lunch sack were.  The would watch with great incredulity as I would pull these nasty things out of my lunch sack.
"Are you going to eat that?" they would ask.  "No," I would say, "I have been trying to invent a fireproof coaster in case my coffee cup catches on fire."
I think the equation that some of these trainers operated on was that    more fiber = more spirituality
I remember worker's conferences where visitors from France or Africa would be in incredible pain because of all the fiber in the food.  One brother told me, "Paul it really hurts here," he pointed to his distended abdomen which was swollen from gas.  "Get used to it guy, your intestines will hurt all the time if you stay around here very long."
The Lord made animals like cows with five stomachs so that they could eat the fiber.  Then we can eat the cows and get the healthy benefits without the pain.  A lot of people used to say "No pain no gain."  My wise younger brother told me once "No pain no pain."

Conclusion
The Lord indentifies carob as pig food.
Luke 15:15-17 And he went and attached himself to one of the citizens of that country, and he sent him into his fields to feed swine. And he was longing to fill his stomach with the pods(I.e. of the carob tree, marginal reading NAS) that the swine were eating, and no one was giving anything to him.  But when he came to his senses, he said, he said,"How many of my father's hired men have more than enough bread, but I am dying here with hunger!

We know the rest of the story that Christ told, the prodigal son came to his senses, came back to the Father, and in celebration of his return they killed the fatted calf.(Red meat)

1.Carob is not a chocolate substitute, The Creator identifies it as pig food.
2.You can come to your senses and eat red meat
3.Be set free and eat chocolate.

Paul Hohulin

Flora---

Thanks-----I'm not sure I have ever read that thread before.  That post is very funny!   ;D

"No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible"  --Voltaire

"When one door of happiness closes, another opens, but often we look so
long at the closed door that we do not see the one that has been opened
for us"   --Helen Keller