AssemblyBoard

My advise to the those still clinging to the assembly (leader and layman)--Just walk away.  I have an elderly uncle back in Kentucky who helped liberate Buchenwald concentration camp.  When I visited him 2 summers ago he showed me pictures of the vacant-eyed prisoners whom he liberated.  Many were unsure of where to go.  All they had known for the past many months had been destroyed by the Allied Liberation.  What they did not know was the joy, peace, full meals, and liberty were waiting for them just outside the gates.

It's the same with those still in the assembly.  The pastureland of Christianity isn't some barren, salt marsh as George Geftakys has so long maintained.  It's wide open, frutiful, and pleasant.  This isn't to say that one leaving Buchenwald shouldn't be wary of rattlesnakes, poison mushrooms, and used car salesmen.  The point is that--with God's help and direction--the merits of the pleasant places exceed the perils of the dangerous ones.  My words to those which tremble in assemblies are Caleb's words to the Children of Israel--"Let us go up at once, and possess it; for we are well able to overcome it" (Numbers 13:30).  Sure "there be giants in the land."  But "if God be for us, who can be against us?"  

The leadership in SLO only accepted the dissolution of the Assembly after it was impossible to do otherwise.  I am glad that they have done so.  But is this praiseworthy?

After World War 2, after the fall of the Axis Powers, it became clear that there needed to be a regime change in Germany.  That the former Nazis accepted the Allied occupation of their country was not a testimony to their repentance.  It was their acceptance of a settled fact.
The new changes were not protested by either the German people or the failed Nazi leadership.  Both of these groups agreed with the Allies that it was time for a change.  All realized that this was what was meant by "unconditional surrender."  It seemed unlikey then that those who had remained loyal to the Fuhrer until the end could be counted in the future.  Their "repentance" in many cases was de facto and a mere acknowledgement of the unavoidable.  Depending on their culpability, former National Socialists were hanged, imprisoned, or allowed to quietly blend back into society.  

I am highly suspect of assembly leadership.  There seems to be an inverse relationship to one's suitability to lead and one's willingness to do so.   In SLO, the man who was most courageous--Kirk Cesaretti--is the most self-reproachful and least willing to lead the flock.  I told Jeff and Roberto on many occasions that Christ was not the focus of the assembly but that the assembly was the focus.  I used the example of Dagon on at least one occasion.  The assembly was continually propped, despite its failures.  Now that Dagon is in a thousand pieces, it's time to stop defending him.
 
(Perhaps we should get a discussion thread going about the MANIFOLD ERRORS taught by the assembly.  That might help to extinguish the mythology that George and David are the only problem.)  

Greg Holder has been named as complicit in Judy's abuse.  Let me also name him as pointing our to me that there is a book called the Bible and that it should teach Christians how to live.  I still love him, as I do the other saints still in the assembly.

But I love the truth more.  Today could be the day when the leaders begin to look afresh at their Bibles and their God--as sheep.  And today could be the day when the last sheep leave the prison house, bleary eyed but alive.  Read in John 10 about the Great Shepherd waiting to bring you into his pasture.  Don't be afraid.  The razor wire is down and the gun turrets are all silent.

You're free.

Bravo!  Amen!  Awesome!  (Kimberley just about started crying :'()

I hope this speaks volumes to those who will honestly look back at their involvement with this place and realize that there is deliverance on "the other side" of the assembly.

Greg & Kimberley Tobin

Rudy,

I think Verne logged off, but I can answer your question. Verne was from Champaign (via the Virgin Islands) and he began fellowship in Tuscola. Not too many years later they were "allowed" to break bread in Champaign.

If I remember correctly Verne was a student at the U of I. Don't know about the Kansas connection.

Verne, if you read this, hope it's OK I answered for you? Are you really 51? That means that you were younger than I am now when I knew you! Wow.

Scott

To put it in the words of yoda, "You must unlearn what you have learned."
 ;D

Excuse me Arthur, you have misquoted Yoda.  It should read, "Unlearn you must, things you have learned...mmmm."  Editor


(http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/2435/yoda-1.jpg)

Disclaimer for the hypersensitive :P:  I do not actually believe in Yoda, nor do I suggest that anyone else believe in him.  He is just a fictional character, and this particular quote seems fitting and caused a chuckle or two;)   Enjoy :)  

Hey Big Aaron !!

Excellent insight.  Hammer to Nail on Head.  Now that the Fuhrer is dead, will anyone now rationalize following Himmler (organizer of gestapo and SS)?  How 'bout Gering?  Now in no way is George to be equated to Hitler.  However, anyone with a rational mind must agree the same principles apply when it comes to assembly leadership.

Nail on Head.

Rob K

Hi.

  I'm new here, and I haven't read all the articles yet, so forgive me if I'm inaccurate as far as what's happened. With that said, I was apalled by the letters between the Tr0ckmans and the SLO leadership. For one thing, it is not enough for the SLO leadership to admit they were wrong and say they're sorry. As has been pointed out, they were basically doing it at gunpoint with George being excommunicated over his failure to repent. If they're really sorry, they should step down. They could advise people with sound biblical training as they attempt to heal the flock, but they should not lead because they are fully indoctrinated into Geoge's twisted teachings and because they let such horrible things continue so long.
  As to Brent's letter to SLO, it seems to me that the "joy of the Lord" is at work again here. I, for one, was taught to repent every time I had an emotion that wasn't "the joy of the Lord." To express anger, fear or sarcasm was sin. THIS IS NOT BIBLICAL!
  "He [John the Baptist] therefore began saying to the multitudes who were going out to be baptized by him, 'You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Therefore bring forth fruits in keeping with repentance. . . " Luke 3:7-8
  "And He [Jesus] said to them, 'Go and tell that fox. . . ." Luke 13:32
  The Bible doesn't record Jesus or John the Baptist repenting of sarcasm, bitterness or anger. I have never read anything from Brent that was inappropriate or not justified. I understand the desire to be reunited with your friends in the Assembly and the desire to be humble, but I don't think Brent should have repented in this case.

  Sincerely,
  Heather Fryling

Amen!

Um..left it in actually.
For some reason that yoda picture doesn't show sometimes.  Here it is again.

(http://www.icebanana.de/fun/pics/fotos/pics/GatesGef.jpg)

Ooops...sorry, that was the darker side of the Microsoft founder.  Here it is..

(http://www.icebanana.de/fun/pics/fotos/pics/yoda.jpg)

No wait, that's not it either...ah, here it is

(http://johncscifisite.com/julypics/yoda.jpg)

Heather,

Brent's humility laid a great foundation in encouraging goodwill and trust in SLO.

Clearly an "attitude" problem and gross sinful behavior are NOT EQUAL.  However, since Brent was willing to scrub his elbows a bit, it went a long way in getting some thoroughly filthy folks into the tub.

Those folks "coming clean" or at least "starting the process" to come clean set in motion the falling of multiple dominos through-out the assemblies 32 or so gathering around the country and perhaps a dozen more around the world.

A little humility went a very long way...Don't underestimate the power of grace in one man's life and what kind of storm it can unleash.

Blessings To You Heather, Chuck

"...since Brent was willing to scrub his elbows a bit, it went a long way in getting some thoroughly filthy folks into the tub. "

Heheh, Chuck, you have a way with words.


"The mug shot was you in 1977."


Rudy,  was only two years old in '77.  And no, he's not my father either (Art, I am your father).  Course, if he was, I'd be heir to the evil empire   :o
Interesting that Star Wars came out the same year Bill had his pict. taken.

"The next two are the Sears photo
studio shots of you. Man, you are
not, and i mean not, aging like a
good vintage."
Heheh.  Hey, if you can't say something nice...
Actually, you should have seen me before the face lift :)

So...that mug shot kind of looks like Bill Gates.  Am I right?  That must have come from thesmokinggun.com.

Strangely enough, his arrest (or at least his photo) was on the day I CAME INTO THIS WORLD-- 12/13/1977.  At least someone had a reason to celebrate that day.

Wha?  Born the same day...eerrriee   :o

Maybe you have some kind of bond with him.  Do you own a Microsoft product?  Another piece of evidence -- all pointing to it.  Eerrieeee :o

Arthur--are you ready for this?

I OWN Microsoft products.  I OWN Microsoft stock.  I have personal friends who work at Microsoft and have even seen Bill.

Bill and I both drive our OWN selves to work.

We both dropped out of college on more than one occasion.

Bill once visited California, where I was born.

It is possible that we have dined in the same restaurants at different times.  I've heard he likes Kidd Valley Hamburgers.

AND...drumroll...both Bill and I live in the Seattle Metro area!!!!

This is just too much.

Aliens?  Psychic Friends?  Government Conspiracy?  Vast Right Wing Conspiracy?  Past Life Regression Experiences?  (I'm not sure what that last one means, but I heard it somewhere and it sounded cool).  

This should be on the humor thread.  ;D

  You're right Chuck. Brent did do the right thing in order to make things happen. We are dealing with people here, and people need patience and help. If Brent had an attitude problem, he has the right to repent of it--it did help in a lot of ways. My post wasn't meant to be mainly about Brent, though; it was about the SLO leadership. My prayer is that those who've done wrong will recognize it and show the fruit of repentance. The time for lip service is over. :'( Too many people have been hurt.

  Heather

Aaron I totally agree!  There is no way the leaders can just smooth this over.  I suspect they are attempting to salvage whatever they can.  Interesting the parrallels that have taken place over the past 6 months to those in Bunyons "Holy War"

The leaders are not Nazis or communists.  What I was questioning in my post was their willingness to cling to error, be man worshippers, and "kick against the pricks" of their consciences.

Of course we all did that--not just the leaders.  

I heard David teach that "God did not become a man" and allowed Jeff to explain this away.  I am guilty.

One of the early teachings that I encountered in the Assembly was that lying for leadership and the saints is OK.  I allowed the Scriptures concering Rahab, the Hebrew Midwives, and David among the Phillistines to be twisted to facilitate sin.  I was wicked in so doing.

I saw Judy and David's brusies and didn't dig deeply.  I am guilty.

I heard George teach that there is a separate Glory (one with Jesus and one with The Father) and that the Overcomers got to be with The Father and that the lesser saints had to settle for Jesus.  GOD HAVE MERCY.  I didn't kick.  I am guilty.

I didn't much fight the Assembly's non-purgatory Purgatory.  (Non-Overcoming Christian may find themselves in "outer darkness" where there will be gnashing of teeth.)  I am guilty.

I was a brute to my wife.  I am guilty.

There are scores of areas in which Assembly leaders taught lies and covered for lies.  And yet none of this would have been possible without the complicity of the membership.

To continue with my (perhaps unfortunate) earlier post--If the Assembly leaders could be likened to Nazis whose alligience to their leader eclipsed their consciences, then we the flock were the German people who enabled the deception.

We are all guilty.  May God have mercy on us.

"Turn your eyes upon Jesus/Look full in His wonderful face/And the things of earth will grow strangely dim/In the light of His glory and grace.

Aaron my friend:

That is a beautiful confession.  I can't tell you how much I am blessed by it.  It also points out a stark contrast with regard to the leader's repentance.

I will have a story about this on the main page in an hour or two.

As far as commies and Nazi's go,  perhaps people would like to read this:

http://www.geftakysassembly.com/glasnost.html (http://www.geftakysassembly.com/glasnost.html)

The battle is not yet over, but the captives who wish to go free are now able to do so.  There are others who perhaps do not want freedom in Christ, for whatever reason.

Brent

Could you really blame the German people after that "insane Treaty of Versailles" ?  :-\

Brent,
"The battle is not yet over, but the captives who wish to go free are now able to do so.  There are others who perhaps do not want freedom in Christ, for whatever reason."

What is the battle of which you speak?  
What is the particular freedom in Christ that you are talking about here?

I want to be clear.  I believe you have aimed to do so as well.
(added) I also want to thank you wholeheartedly for this site, and for this bulliten board.
Your brother in Christ,
Joseph

OPEN QUESTION HERE....forgive me if I am a bit late to the party...but the issue jumps out at me...

I am wondering out loud...but is it possible, even probable that GOD did start a work through George...and somewhere along the way...GG stepped up to take the credit and GOD quietly moved on? It would seem so, as many owe their initial salvation experience to the Assembly.

The repeated historical danger of leadership is the lack of ACCOUNTABILITY....hundreds, probably thousands of GG minestries have been spawned and corrupted over church history. My belief is that GG was a gifted, intellegent man who at one time was used of GOD. That time has passed and now, hopefully those who experienced such an example of pride and apostolic arrogance will NEVER allow our minds to be ensnared again.

Verne, I guess I am postulating the theory that GG was at some point in the very beginning a man used of GOD...who fell and no one was there to correct, exhort and replace. Satan is the culprit here, but so is man...blinded by our need for importance and personal gain.  Blinded by sin and delusion...GG plodded along creating a larger and larger morass of screwed up lives and abused christians until finally the bubble burst and the past sins overtook him and his hand picked "yes" men.

That is a far different situation than a purely evil movement initiated by and with a pre-acknowledged allegiance with Lucifer. I know that at times in my experience at Fullerton and in the midwest that truly GOD spoke and influenced my life. After all, we were lead to leave by the SPIRIT of GOD.  ???

Unless others have first hand knowledge or evidence of a "pre-concieved"  intent to decieve or  the premeditated creation of a Christian Counterfiet Assembly way back in 1967-69....I would continue to suggest this was at one time a genuine movement of GOD spawned by the JESUPUSA movement. ( Jesus people USA  movement occured in southern CA during the drug and counter culture revolution that has been recorded by prudent and recognized church historians the country over.)

It does perplex the mind though...? Does anyone out there have any further insights into this matter. Brent....hmmmm? It is a rather important point to clarify...

Peace...

God's use of talking asses isn't limited to Balaam's time.  

Brad,

No details, but I'm positive your dad knows: George was disciplined by the group he sprang from (Brethren, maybe), for being unentreatable among other things. He was told he was not ready for his own ministry.

I would put forth the opposite theory: That George was attracted to religion because it satisfied his need to dominate and control. I imagine that early on he did not consciously realize this (maybe he did), but using his gifts of oration (yes they eroded considerably over time!) and intellect he was able to satisfy the cravings of control that he needed to validate himself. Over time this developed . . . well, you know the rest!

Scott

Ok Scooter you get a big huge A+ in psychology from me. Sounds most probable.  It really does bug ya though to think about how much we all believed in him and the Assembly at one point...makes me feel kinda slow...ya know?

The talking Asses thing I wont comment on... ;D

Seriously though...the point that could and should be remembered is that obvious gifts are NOT signs of GODS blessing.

Peace.

OK, I originally addressed that post to "Buford" and then backspaced and typed "Brad!" And here you are bringing up the Scooter thing!

By the way - my daughter is "Scooter" these days!

yes mr. Scotty. You get a cookie for thinking your theory through logically. it sounds like somethin i would say actually

Aaron's post closely parallels my own perspective of my own complicity in this evil.  This is why I harbor no bitterness toward the "perpetrators" and will not withdraw into the victims box/coffin.  When we see this, and turn, we can begin to live in the true liberty Christ has already provided for us.

Something I've always been curious about and wondering if anyone knows any details.

George ALWAYS, nearly every time he spoke, mentioned how he didn't get his PHD because God somehow told him "I never asked you to do this and I don't want it"

It always came across to me that he was bitter over it.  It seemed like he was trying to let us know he COULD have had it, boasting in his 'spiritutality', that he gave it up for God.

But I always thought he seemed bitter over it to this day.

Just curious if anybody has any insight how "God told him he didn't want it"

Hi John,
I was led to think that GG had a Masters and was in a PhD program. A close relative of mine was in a PhD Philosophy track at the University that GG claims he went to. They were the same age. I asked GG if he knew my relative I got a strange vague shrug......hmmmm now I know why.

I tried to find out about G.G and his supposed high faluten education.  He did attend Biola yet it took him quite a long time just to get his B.A. (He may have decided to join the marines and came back after getting injured in an accident-at least this is what he told people at BIOLA) As for the Phd?  Brent knows something about this! He may have taken a few classes at U.S.C. but never amounted to anything. Do you think George would have any accademic weakness?  I don't yet I can see him having major social skill problems that would probably keep him from acheiving a Phd. I am under the impression that Brent is going to put out a Bio on George that will expose his dealings throughout his Biola/baptist/Plymouth Brethren years.

Friends I have run into Tim G (on one occassion) and Dan N  this week (Starbucks)on another both yimes I have been under the impression that they wanted to talk but I hesitate because I am unsure where they stand?  Does anyone know?  Are they still "assembly" people or have they completely left?

Brad Just read your post My take on George is that George is functionally  Scizo.  Part of Geogre is  a sincere man (In the will of God if you want to see it that way) Thus the good things that took place in his ministry may have been genuine. Yet George  has no real discernment between his own Superego and God. George gets excited about "The Vision" This work that God is doing has George himself at the center. For example I remember George quoting the apostle Paul in the first person "Let a man consider (me) as steward of the mysteries of God"  as if God had given the Apostles charges to George himself. Also I noticed a  part of George as being terribly insecure/paranoid. The George that new who he really was a manipulator etc... (The human George if you want to see it that way)   (I know this sounds strange but looking at David Koresh and Jim Jones  These guys were at the same time frauds and yet totally sincere! (They darnk the coolaid too!)I think in the back of his mind he feard this day would come. Yet Brad what I think you are getting at is the same thing I have struggled with for so long.  How can God have been so evidently working in our lives yet we see we were taken? Can people like Jim Heyman stand up and give their testimony? "Let me tell you how God has so evidently honored nmy sincere devotion to Him His word His people etc..."  This has caused me to question if God can truely be known?  can anyone eplain the fact that we confessed "God spoke to me!"  yet had we walked away from the assembly as so many dicerning people did,  we would have made a better choice. Now today what do we do?  read the Bible and hear Gods voice again?  ie all the influences and interpretations we are subjected to as seekers of Gods will.  Can any of us say in confidence "Now I know for sure that I am not decieved?

David,
All I know is that God is greater than all the GG's. Even in our situations (that we entered by faith) God used it for good.
There were parts of the Lodge system that met a need I had when I first started. My childhood family was very difficult. As I grew up, I no longer needed the lodge as I did when I was younger. I stayed in the Lodge a lot longer even  after I realized how weird, strange and controlling it was.
A good thing about the BB is we're seeking these answers together.

David, interesting thoughts for sure. Bottom line for me...GOD confirms his will via a combination of factors...including but certainly not limited to:the convergence of respected Chrisitian counsel, accountability to our peers, a thorough search of established evangelical scriptural theology taken "in context" and finally through a practical expression of real life evidence of our fruit...JOY, PEACE and LOVE etc. I find this is best reflected in our marriages. I cherish my wifes opinion and support as a MAJOR sign from GOD that I am not off on a tangent. Godly spouses I am convinced are a significant part of this process and often the basic buillding block formed in unity of opinion in the home is ignored at our peril. ( i apologize for the terrible syntax used...in a hurry today, please be kind and look at the general thought here)

I am encouraged that the very awareness that we should be concerned of the potential for deciet  is a sign of GOD's spirit flowing freely. This is a natural and powerful byproduct out of a real christian lifestyle both corporate and private. It's when we stop our vigilence and assume our view is "exclusive" that we come to the proverbial "fall".

 I am further convinced we will never "arrive" at a point of complete spiritual wisdom or awareness... in fact the opposite is true in my life and in the life of every Godly person I know. We become more and more aware of our complete weakness, dependence on Grace and utter depravity of our souls compared to the beauty of our GOD and his Holy presence. Our religious confidence fades as our awareness of the mystifying exisitence of GRACE overrides every facet of our theology...(*my personal experience)

This is not to paralyze us from ever fellowshipping again or trusting...rather we can go forward  confidently in Faith...for our salvation, for our life path and for divine wisdom to lead our families.  

Just my personal take on these rather weighty matters of leadership. Practically, it will take a major effort to communicate between the "factions" within the Assembly. Both sides will need to have "outside" monitoring and accountability as a process is set up to make decisions for the future. I have my own opinions as to what would be appropriate, but frankly I have no right to voice them openly...as I am not a member of the previous Assembly church in Fullerton.

My comments are meant to encourage and reinforce the "truth" of GOD's faithfullness and ability to work out these matters to his GLORY.

Peace....