AssemblyBoard

Where in scripture does it say the bread and the cup is worship?
Or, that the offering is a part of our worship?
Or, only leading brothers can give the ministry before the Lords Supper?

Hi,
The way I understand the Lord's Supper being a part of worship, is that it is a remembrance of what the Lord Jesus accomplished on the cross for us.  Remembering what He has done for us can be considered worship.

Our offering is a part of worship
Deuteronomy 26:4,10 And the priest shall take the basket out of thine hand, and set it down before the altar of the LORD thy God.
And now, behold, I have brought the firstfruits of the land, which thou, O LORD, hast given me. And thou shalt set it before the LORD thy God, and worship before the LORD thy God:

As for only leading brother's giving the word before the Lord's supper, I think it depends on which "assembly."  I've done it many times in different places and I'm not a LB.

Joel

Good questions.

I agree with Joel on his third point.  I have been involved in two different assemblies and in both places there were non-LB's who were not only allowed, but who were also encouraged to share something before the Lord's Supper.


Joe

Thank you Joe and Joel. :)

Hi saints,

Say, I've been reading your posts, and I would like to say a few things on this subject.

First, let me say that there is no such thing as "the worship".

The Bible teaches that our entire lives are to be an offering, an act of worship.  Romans 12:1-2.  It teaches in Hebrews that we can worship God with prayer, songs, and giving.

Now, of course we can come together to worship God, in song and prayer.  But the idea that there is some pattern of worship that all Christians are supposed to follow is not taught in the New Testament.  That idea was for the old testament.

In the assemblies we were always taught that we were to "come together on the first day of the week to break bread".  This comes from Acts 20: 7-11.

Did you ever notice what they actually did?  
1. They came together to break bread.
2. Paul started preaching.
3. Paul preached until midnight.
4 Eutychus fell out the window
5. Paul restored him to life.
6. Paul gave thanks for the bread and they ate it.  (This took place on MONDAY morning, not Sunday).
7. Paul talked until daybreak.
8. Paul left.

There it is.  No mention of a time of prayer, blessing and drinking the cup, singing of hymns, or anything else. The breaking of bread in this case, was a meal. Just like in Luke 24:30.

Whatever you want to call this, it is difficult, (impossible in my opinion), to see a Plymouth Brethren breaking of bread meeting here.  Yet, this is the flagship verse for the "New Testament pattern of worship".

Now, in saying this, I am NOT saying we can not or should not worship God during the Lord's Supper. I have absolutely no objection to the prayers and hymns.   What I am saying is that it is not necessarily the Plymouth Brethren Mass that GG learned from them and established in his assemblies.  And the idea that God will abandon His people if they don't do it just right, is pagan.
God bless,
Thomas Maddux

I know that this is not "a major point" to what you are saying about worship, but the Sabbath ended at sundown.

Yes, I am aware that the word "day" is not in the original and the word "week" is actually sabbath, but the phrase "first of sabbath" referred to the start of a new week or "Saturday evening".

So, Paul started preaching sometime on what we would call "Saturday evening".

The breaking of bread was sometime just after midnight on Sunday morning.

The question about the Lords Supper being worship was put forth because Tim G made a statement in a Sunday meeting (in Springfield a few years ago) that the Lords Supper was worship.  That statment seemed to imply the Lords Supper was the only real essential part of worship.
I do believe it is apart of worship and that it is as the scripture says, "to be done in rememberence of Him."
I put the question out because it has stayed so clear in my mind.

My family and I worshipped with another fellowship of Christians this morning. It was wonderfully refreshing. God has His people everywhere who are worshipping in spirit and in truth. PTL

Bob,

You could be right.  IF 30 years after the crucifixion, 25 or so years after Paul's conversion, in a Greek speaking city, far from Palestine, with Greek brothers, Luke is reckoning time according to Jewish law.

Nevertheless, it sure isn't what was called "the worship" in GG's assemblies.

God bless,
Tom Maddux

At least what I remember reading, the Jewish Sabbath started what we would call Friday evening at sunset.  The "first day of the week" would be what we call Saturday night, at sunset.

This is not what I was expecting to be my first post. :)

Excellent post, Tom! As you so well point out, there is no NT equivalent of the book of Leviticus. Instead, "where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." (2 Corinthians 3:17) Keep up the good work!
Love in Christ,
H

Nowhere in the scripture does it say that the bread and the cup is worship.  However, there is a reason why Christians eat the bread and drink the wine.  

And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

In Luke 22:19-20, Jesus is with his disciples just before he was about to give his life -his body and blood- to redeem them, and he has a meal with them.  (Note that this was at the time of the Passover (ref Exo 12), a remembrance of God's deliverance that involved a lamb's blood being shed and put over the doorposts.)
This is a very precious time with his followers.  Jesus said, "With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer."  He loved them; he was going to die for them, and now it was their last meal together.  A meal is a time of fellowship, a time to be with your friends and share food and drink--that which sustains us and gives us life.  It meant something to Jesus and to his disciples.  Jesus said, "I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."  This was what he was looking forward to.  This was why he came.  He was about to give his life for these that were there at the table, and all who would believe on him through their word, to redeem them, and then they would be with him forever in His Father's kingdom.  How wonderful!  
So you see, the Lord's Supper isn't some formal whatever.  It is a time for us who also believe in Jesus to remember him and what he did for us.  We share the bread and remember his body that was broken for us.  We share the cup and remember his blood that was shed for us.  It's almost as if he is right there with us, just as he was with those first disciples on that day.  In this time of remembrance (at least this is what it is for me), there is sadness because of his death, but great joy because we know that he is risen!  
May we never forget and may our love for him always be new and strong and vital.  

In I Cor 11:17-25, we see that the Lord directly revealed and/or instructed Paul what he had previously told in person to the disciples there in that upper room just before his death. Paul wasn't there at the time.  He says of his being an apostle, that he is as one abnormally born.  So the Lord revealed it to him later.  And this is what Paul then in turn told the churches that they also should do.
Paul chastised this church because what they were doing was not celebrating the Lord's Supper (as maybe some of them thought they were doing). It obviously wasn't a time of remembering the Lord because they were being selfish and disorderly.  Then he gives them instruction as to what they should do.  He wasn't chastising them for not doing it on a certain day or with certain frequency.  He was chastising them for their behavior during it.

I think from this passage and from Acts 2:42-47, it can be inferred that it was custom for the believers to come together to partake of the Lord's Supper.   Others have already explained in this thread that there is no pattern for when or how, other than what was given by the Lord and reaffirmed by Paul, that it is to include the bread and the wine for the purpose of remembering Him.  

17 Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. 18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. 19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. 20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper. 21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. 22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? what shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. 23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: 24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. 25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. 27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

Um..ok.  But it was custom then and is custom now for believers to partake in the Lord's Supper, right?   I understand about that the book of Acts was meant more as a historical document then to set precedents or policies for believers.  Note that I didn't say that we should follow some precedent now, I just meant that they seemed to be having the Lord's Supper every once in a while back then, and probably regularly, wouldn't you agree?  And I dunno why you focused on what was really just a side point to the main point of my post, which was how wonderful the Lord Supper's is when you think about Jesus.   ;D

Ah, ok, that's cool.  I do the same thing, there are so many posts :)

Excellent post, Arthur! I especially liked this part (it's worth repeating):


P.S. I would like to respectfully suggest that John and Dave continue their exchange via PMs rather than posting to this thread (or post on the new "John Malone" thread). The topic of this thread is "worship", remember? I would further like to suggest that they delete their last few off-topic posts (or at least move them to the "John Malone" thread).

"Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:"
1 Peter 3:8  

"Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if ther be any praise, think on these things."  Philippians 4:8

I agree H, Dave and John needs to take their post somewhere ealse and let this thread remain "worship".

Hello Everyone

This thread is for serious bible discussion.  The topic is Worship.

I am going to have to delete posts here, because I can't move individual posts.  I won't have to do this unless the thread keeps getting off track.

There are other area of the board where the recent discussion can take place, but this thread is for serious discussion about worship.

Brent

Greetings everyone:
I hope this poem/song doesn't violate the purpose of this thread.
                       The Maker of the universe
                       As Man, for man, was made a curse
                       The claims of Law which He had made
                       To the uttermost-He paid
       
                       His holy fingers made the bough
                       Which grew the thorns that crowned His brow
                       The nails that pierced His hands were mined
                       In secret places He designed

                       He made the forest whence there sprung
                       The tree on which His body hung
                       He died upon the cross of wood
                       Yet made the hill on which it stood

                       The sky that darkened o'er His head
                       By Him above the earth was spread
                       The sun that hid from Him its face
                       By His decree was poised in space
                   
                       The spear that spilled His precious blood
                       Was tempered in the fires of God
                       The grave in which His form was laid
                       Was hewed in rocks His hands had made

                       The throne on which He now appears
                       Was His from everlasting years
                       But a new glory crowns His brow
                       And every knee to Him shall bow

                       The Maker of the universe
                       The Maker of the universe
                       The Maker of the universe.


Arr. by P. Keaggy
Author I believe anonymous

Dear Sebastian!

  If that poem doesn't belong here it belongs no where else!

     Thank you so much for posting such a beautiful thought.  

      WHAT A WONDERFUL SAVIOR IS JESUS MY JESUS


          God has blessed us in Christ!   Mark C.

Thank you for sharing that Sebastian!  That is a beautiful poem.

Arthur

I am a little curious about "Corporate Worship"  Is there such a thing in the NT?  From what I've been hearing, no.  (Although I havent investigated myself).  I know that some very dear friends of mine are "revising" their anchors to exclude "the corporate worship anchor".  Also on a side note, i would recommend anyone still involved with discipling on a campus to review the anchors and re-examine certain things, i.e.  Lords Treasury, etc.  

The church I currently attend also uses the "four pillars"
http://www.harvestbible.org/html/fourpillars.html (http://www.harvestbible.org/html/fourpillars.html)
However they view "fellowship" as working together in the Lord's service.

I notice that their verse selection also does not specify corporate worship (I guess I'll have to order the tapes).

Verses I would consider using are:

Eph 5:18  And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit,
19  speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord,
20  giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,

Colossians 3:15  And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful.
16  Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

Hello Bob and Jim

Here is something to chew on.  George's idea of "corporate" this and that is pure bunk.  When two or three people are together, by definition it is corporate!  

"Corporate fellowship" belongs in the department of redundancy department.
Fellowhip implies 2 or more, thus it is corporate by definition. Solitary comes from the latin, SOLO, which means alone.  Seems pretty simple. Fellowship is not alone, but with one's fellow.

"Corporate gathering" belongs in the frequent check out line at the department of redundancy deparment which is a subsidiary of the first department of redundancy department.

How can you have a "gathering," and not have it corporate? Hmmmm?  ??? ???

George used the phrase corporate, to mean US, the Assembly, the elite church who did things right, in a day when everyone else did them wrong.  Hogwash!!

We are to worship in spirit and truth.  If we do this solo, we are still worshipping. If we do it in fellowship with others, we are also worshipping.  Church is corporate, as long as there are 2 or more.

I like the idea of freedom in worship, which is why home groups are important.  There, you can have much more freedom to worship than on a Sunday morning when there are 600 people there.

I hope this helps.  
by the way, I am an avid sailor.  A boat likes to lie to one anchor, not four.  Sometimes two, but never four.  Also, the worst place to anchor is on the "solid rock."  You will either drag anchor, or not be able to get your anchor back!  Sand is the best, every time.  We always look for sand to anchor in.

Brent

Can someone worship the Lord when they are having a sin problem?

Yes.

Getting right with God is the highest form of worship.  Repentance is the highest form of worship.

Confession happens as a prelude to repentance and is a prerequisite to repentance....Confession is agreeing with God about ourselves - that we're guilty of sin - not were guilty, but ARE guilty now - "having a sin problem."  This is not possible without grace.  Realizing grace - give and receive from God - is a form of worship.

Look at many of David's "worship" Psalms...He was worshipping while HAVING a sin problem.  It was THROUGH worship that God was able to deal with it.

A better question might be - "Can a person worship God while knowingly being indifferent to his or her sin?" ...For that question - I think not.

Another question - Is anyone EVER not having a sin problem?  If anyone says "Me, I don't struggle or have problems with sin."  I'd say that person is a liar.

So, if you can only worship when you aren't having a problem with sin...then no one could worship.

Chuck Vanasse
chuck@vanant.com

Brent,
what are your thoughts on the corporate anchors?  I sensed a hint of sarcasm torwards all the anchors...just wondering what your clear cut opinions are.  

Hi Jim

Although the thread is actually supposed to be about worship, I will divert just a little and mention a few ideas about the "corporate" anchors, since one of them is "corporate" worship.

Let me first de-bunk some Assembly error with regard to how we view Acts 2:42.  This passage is highly illustrative of some PRINCIPLES at work in the early church meetings.  There is no talk here about boats, or anchoring/mooring techniques!  (I am a novice when it comes to the Bible, but I consider myself a real expert when it comes to anchoring/mooring.  In fact, I do much of the splicing and advising on ground tackle for several of the guys who actually use their boats in my marina.)

First of all, the imagery of a "ship needing four anchors, lest it drift," is way off.  Ideally, a vessel wants to lie to one properly sized anchor so it can pivot about when the wind changes direction.  (look at all the boats tied up to mooring floats in the harbor sometime.  One line at the bow, not four!) Sometimes a tidal current necessitates two anchors, one for the incoming tide, and one for the outgoing tide, set 180 degrees from eachother.  Using four anchors is never done, and is a good way to get one of the rodes (anchor line) wrapped around your propeller!

Now, in a slip, a yacht might want to use 4 or more lines to tie up, but these aren't anchors!  

Also, only a fool anchors on rock!  It's the absolute worst way to anchor.  Either the anchor just drags, doing no good whatsoever, or, if the rocks have a bunch of nooks and holes, the anchor gets swallowed in one of these, never to be seen again by the foolish yachtsman who lowered his anchor in this kind of bottom!  Sand is the absolute best medium to anchor in, bar none.  That song we sang,  "your anchor holds, and grips the solid rock,"  is just the result of a poor, misinformed, hymnwriter.  It should say, "your anchor holds, and digs in to the sand."  That makes me feel much better, and infinitely more secure.

Point?  We bought into an idea that every week, we must be practicing the Anchors of the Faith, otherwise, we would drift away!

Nonsense!  This was merely twisted so that we saw how we must go to all the weekly meetings, because each one was an Anchor of the faith.  the early church did it, and so we must also.  To miss one of the anchors, habitually, would result in loss and drift in my Christian life, ultimately meaning that I only got second best from the Lord.  (Performance based salvation)

Let's take Sunday at my church for example.  We pray, worship, fellowship, and hear teaching from  God's Word.  But this happens before, during, and after the "Service."  This is an example of the principles of Acts 2:42 in practice.

Other churches have Sunday school, where they pray, fellowship and hear teaching.  Then after Sunday school, they go into the sanctuary and worship.  Again, the principles are at work.  Not anchors, principles.

So, most church meetings follow these principles.

The other thing that was twisted in the Assembly, which I have mentioned earlier, is the idea of "Individual" and "Corporate" anchors.  

This is easily dispatched.  How is it possible to have individual fellowship?  Can you fellowship with yourself?  No, you need a "fellow" to fellowship.  

How is "corporate" fellowship different from another type of fellowship?  If ten people get together and sing hymns between number 1 and 128 for an hour, praying in between songs, is this somehow "corporate?"  If two or more people are there, isn't it already corporate?  If another group of ten people sing songs to a guitar player, is this NOT corporate?  What gives?

The idea of "corporate" this and that, was merely double speak to somehow lead us to believe that what we were doing was really special.  We had a "vision" for the pattern, that was somehow deeper and better than what others had.  Furthermore,  this "corporate" mentality creeped in to the way we interpreted parables and such.  Everything pertained to the group, not to us as individuals.  The group became all important, and our individual worth was entirely contingent on how much we did for the cause.  This should be quite clear to everyone now.  Christians are not to serve meetings, meetings are to serve Christians!  We don't commit ourselves to His church, we ARE His Church.  We commit ourselves to Jesus Christ!  The body holds fast to The Head, not to itself!  

Now,  many ex-Assembly folks say, "I am just going to have fellowship with God.  I'm never going to another church!"  

Is this going to cause them to drift away?  I submit they have already drifted up on the reef and are in danger of shipwreck by the time this occurrs.  Funny thing is, when people say this sort of thing, it is usually the RESULT of too many "corporate" anchors, not the lack thereof!

We practice the New Testament Pattern on Wednesday nites in my home.  We pray, fellowship, worship and hear teaching from the Bible.  Chairs are set up in a 3-sided rectangular fashion, so we are amiss on that point, but God still visits us!

I guess that since Jesus is present, we have "corporate" meetings.

Brent

hello: Brent:

I just was surfing you site:
I am new: want to learning:
QUESTIONS: WHAT WAS YOUR PURPOSE FOR THIS POST?
Is it a discussion whether we are to worship.
Is is a discussion what is worship , with different view points,in a civil debate.
Is is a place were we can come to share our worshipping to God.
Is is a place were come to place a poem, song, or special lesson learned  , and we want to give thanks in worship, with other fellow believers.
Before I step  head first into this one.
Could I have some answers please:

If I am not off the wall Can I share a song of worship:

BLEST BE THE TIE THAT BINDS
by: John Fawcett:
Blest bet he tie that binds, Our hearts in Christian love
The fellowship of kindred minds. Is like to that above.
Before our Father's throne, We pour our ardent prayers.
Our fears, our hopes, our aims are one. Our comforts and our cares
We share our mutual woes, OUr mutual burdens bear,
And often for each other flows, The sympathizing tear.
When we asunder part, It gives us inward pain;
But we shall still be joined in heart, And hope to meet again.    AMEN.

THANK YOU FOR ALLOWING ME TO SHARE THIS HYMN ON THIS SITE.
I will await your answers.

The posts that Brent was talking about have already been deleted.  That's why you can't figure out why Brent's post is there.

The deleted posts were some heated arguing about unrelated things.

 :D: JULY 12/ 9:14 PM
From: the Tales of the Tardy Oxcart:

Topic: Worship:

"""Consider this when it comes to worship:

- Draw near and listen well,
because  God is communicating.

- Be quiet and stay calm,
because God hears the inaudible and see the invisible.

- Made a commitment and keep it;
because God doesn't forget

- Don't decide now and deny later;
because God doesn't ignore decisions.