AssemblyBoard

As I read the accounts of Judy and Rachel's abuse, I became sick to my stomach, as I have witnessed and experienced first-hand the demeaning treatment of women in the assembly.

I feel that God's Spirit is telling me to tell my story- not to be dramatic, not to shame the memory of my beloved husband Tom (who died in a plane crash in 1990) or to gather sympathy.  The truth needs to be told so that  marriages and families may be spared the trauma of living in an abusive cycle, and those that have been broken (spiritually, emotionally, socially, and physically) can receive healing for their wounds.  Some are so sick and deceived, they may not even realize yet that they are the walking wounded!!  We need to pray.....

My husband Tom was good friends with David Geftakys because they shared a love of surfing and fixing up old cars.  David always made a point to spend time with Tom when he and Judy visited Santa Barbara.  Tom often went to David for counsel on family matters.  Once Tom and David tracked sand into the house from the ocean where they had been surfing all morning.  I made a mild comment about having to get a broom again.  David said, "You are lucky to even have a husband to sweep up after."  In one way these words were prophetic, for Tom passed away 6 months after we left fellowship and I truly did repent of any complaints I had made about serving my husband prior. But I was bothered by the severity of David's comments.

I do believe that Betty is in competition with most women for the brothers' admiration and despises the sisters, using them to fix her juices and do her housework.  I never heard her say a kind word about any of the Santa Barbara wives, especially those who were allowed to work or had aspirations to go back to school.  In fact, when Tom died, Betty told Melany Miners that it was a positive change for me because I always wanted to be a career woman anyways.  

There were rumors after Tom died that God took him because we left fellowship and the "protection of the camp."  

Tom and I had quietly left fellowship in 1989 after he was counseled to quit his job and he disagreed with the brethren.  Tom never spoke poorly of the brethren in public but refused to meet with them to discuss his situation.  He knew it would be pointless and cause more damage.  In retrospect, I am so thankful to Tom for the way he handled this, as so many others have suffered condemnation and ex-communication for disagreeing with the leading brothers of the assembly.

The fun-loving, compassionate and ethical man I married learned how to be abusive and controlling from the attitudes and behavior propogated by the Geftakys family, especially Betty and David.

Because there was no sound teaching on healthy marriages in the assembly, but only examples of control, stern looks, public humiliation, and severe consequences, Tom got the idea that is was okay to hit his wife, too, and "she" deserved it for holding a different opinion than him or for "disobeying."

The abuse started with punching a hole in the closet, slamming doors, barring entrance to the home, threatening to take away the children - and hitting inanimate objects- all the while hurling accusations and character assassinations at me when he was frustrated or angry.  At first I did not know what to do and sincerely questioned my own motives, words, and behaviors.  I was afraid and learned over time to keep my opinions, for the most part, to myself.

When I did not respond to the furniture flying, but cowered in the corner, Tom began to get his point across with slaps to my face, pulling my hair, shoving me on the bed, demanding sex even when I was throwing up, and controlling every decision I made, down to what I could order in restaurants or buy at a store.  The abuse escalated when I returned home from my parents' home in the Bay Area, and I had trimmed my long hair without getting his permission first.

Tom yanked my wedding ring off of my finger, and said I was not worthy to be called his wife for my rebellious act.  He threatened to throw my ring down the toilet and slapped me hard across the face as I cried.  With this, I waited until he went to work, gathered my 3 babies and loaded up the car with our clothes and essential belongings.  We drove up to San Luis Obispo and stayed in a hotel overnight.  I did not contact David Geftakys while in town because I already knew what his response would be.

My parents called Tom in Santa Barbara that evening and pleaded with him to work out our marital problems without violence.  I was 5' 7" and 108 pounds- emaciated, exhausted and scared.  Tom coaxed me into coming home and for awhile this incident was put behind us.  I told Tom I wanted to talk to the brothers about our marital problems and he forbid me to do so.  He said he would kick me out of the house if I breathed a word of the abuse.  I obeyed him.

A month or two later Tom and I were at a Goleta Beach outreach for the 4th of July and it was very hot.  Everyone was in short-sleeved tops and shorts except for me.  I was wearing pants and a long-sleeved top.  Why?  Because Tom had repeatedly socked my upper arm that morning and I had black and blue bruises all over one side of my body.  I debated whether or not to show another married sister, but decided against it.  After all, the few conversations I had with them about my concerns on the controlling and abusive behavior of the men was met with denial and admonitions such as, "Well, you shouldn't talk back.  Pride goeth before a fall.  You always were too independent.  In what ways have you displeased Tom?  etc."

I never told anyone about this but just brought it to the Lord, asking for his forgiveness for anything I might have done to incite Tom's anger.  I was lonely, depressed, and frightened.  Most of all, sick with guilt and fear inside that I could never be a good enough person to gain his favor.

The last straw was when we were living in a brothers' house and Tom pushed me violently onto the bed, (and it was unprovoked behavior).  It was a Saturday night and the house was quiet because everyone was preparing for Sunday worship.  I knew George and Betty were staying over at Wes and Becky Cohen's home, so I called over there in desperation while Tom was out of our bedroom.  I reported the abusive behavior to her, and Betty's reply was, "Well, what did you do to make him so mad?  Then she quoted Proverbs 18:17 to me that says, "The first to plead his case seems just, until another comes and examines him."  She told me to get down on my hands and knees and apologize to Tom for my lack of submission.  I was devastated by this counsel.

As a couple we disagreed with many of the legalistic practices of the assembly, which caused Tom and I to move out of this brother's home and live by ourselves.  We began attending another local Baptist church on altering Sundays.  Over the course of a few months, Tom and I sought marital counseling as we were now making friends with healthy couples and families.  The last time Tom tried to strike me I threatened to call the police, the brethren, his boss, and everyone under the sun.  The physical abuse stopped then, but the scars remained.  

 am thankful to say that the last year of his life and our marriage was the happiest - we began to heal from the negative teaching and behavior of the brethren, and I have long since forgiven my husband for his violent acts.  I know that he loved me but was misguided in his attempt to have a perfect assembly family.

But now I say to the men who have cruelly and egotistically controlled their wives and the vulnerable single sisters in fellowship- shame on you! The Lord Jesus never treated women this way.  He honored and cherished them.  Dogs have been treated better than assembly wives.

(Note:   I have spent the last 7 years of my career as a vice president of human resources and haven't seen near the abuse and shameful behavior from "worldly" men and women as I have from supposed holy and devout men in the assembly.)

And to you women who have turned your hearts, ears, and eyes from the pain of your sisters in fellowship- shame on you!  Our bruises, pulled hair, nightmares and bloody faces might as well have been inflicted by you!  How dare you cover your own insecurity by judging us as being less godly and submissive than yourselves.

Oh, may God bring miraculous healing as we open our hearts to admit wrongdoing, seek forgiveness, change our wicked opinions and ways, and love one another as Christ our Husband loves His Bride.

Dear Susan,

Thank you, thank you, thank you for being willing to tell your story.  There are so many out there.  I never knew that you had been through that but looking back, I am able to fill pieces that were missing for me when you and Tom left and the little I had known you.  I am so glad you and Tom were able to find healing before his death.  You are so right that there are so many still to decieved to realize how bizarre their life really is.  I hope that the light will continue to expand and people will be freed.

Thank you again.

Dear Susan

Yes, I also know what David's response would have been, and I quote, verbatim,

"Put a padlock on the door."  People said, "Amen," when he said this in a couples meeting he was leading, but I don't think anyone is saying amen now.

I am so glad to be free, and I am glad you are too.

Brent

Susan,

I have been hoping that more married women would come out with their stories of abuse by their husbands.  I am convinced that abuse is the norm for the assembly wives.  It was what opened my eyes in 1990 and allowed me to escape the assembly.  

The leading brothers give sick counsel.  The husband can do NO WRONG, did you hear that NO WRONG, NO WRONG, NO WRONG in their marriage.  The wife is no more than a slave to her husband.

I wish it were possible for other wives to come forth without the fear of abuse by their husbands.  

You said things got better after you left the assembly.  There is hope for married couples in the assembly.  That hope comes in the form of leaving the assembly.  

Lori
(SLO Assembly 1985-1990)

Susan,
   
    Thanks for your courage in coming out with your difficult story. I work in an Emergency Room and come face to face with your story day after day. The truth is that domestic violence is more prevelent than we are led to believe: more women are killed by it than rapes, muggings, and motor vehicle accidents combined! It is the #1 cause of injury in females, with a lifetime prevalence of about 25% of women.  We routinely screen every female in the ER now.
    What disturbs me is that there have been enablers of DV in this ministry over the years, and even more so, a pernicious teaching about women which has reinforced it. Of course, since not all men and couples were affected in the same way, we are reluctant to attribute cause and effect, but many men have had abusing fathers and family patterns which set them up to be enabled by such teachings.
    The church should be a safe place for abused people, a place of healing not a place of enabling such pathology. Any ministry which emphasizes the wife's subjection BEFORE the priority of the husband loving his wife is to be suspect.  This is an issue of fellowship, not an option.  Defend the oppressed, the widow, and the fatherless: those are God's priorities. Prov. 31:8-9
Wayne Mathews

Wayne...well said.

You and I both know the legal status of DV...we have to report it. Someone I trust is doing just that in SLO? If not, it must be done. This not simply a spiritual matter but one of legality and moral responsibility.

THIS HAS TO BE REPORTED.

Dr. Brad Mathias

Susan, I just want to thank you for being brave and telling your story.

What makes me the sickest about all of these types of situations is the OTHER WOMEN involved...those who know but do nothing.  Every woman can imagine what it would be like to suffer this type of abuse at the hands of her husband, and how horrifying it would be.  To know that this is happening to a sister and do nothing for her, is tantamount to BEATING HER YOURSELF.  

WAKE UP!!!

Brad's post made me think of something that came to me recently.  Public school teachers are among those legally required to report suspicions of abuse to minors within forty-eight hours of their first hunch or indicator.  It sounds as though an LB who was also my high school teacher may have had reason to believe that Rachel was being abused at home.  We know that nothing was done about this.

Susan, I am really happy for you that you are free of the Assembly mentality and for what sounds like a blessed career.  I am also glad that your last precious time with your husband was positive, so you have those memories.  I know that scars stay on hearts forever, and I pray for the Lord to always comfort you.  :)

Karen Bauer Sanford

Susan, I just want to thank you for being brave and telling your story.

What makes me the sickest about all of these types of situations is the OTHER WOMEN involved...those who know but do nothing.  Every woman can imagine what it would be like to suffer this type of abuse at the hands of her husband, and how horrifying it would be.  To know that this is happening to a sister and do nothing for her, is tantamount to BEATING HER YOURSELF.  

WAKE UP!!!

Brad's post made me think of something that came to me recently.  Public school teachers are among those legally required to report suspicions of abuse to minors within forty-eight hours of their first hunch or indicator.  It sounds as though an LB who was also my high school teacher may have had reason to believe that Rachel was being abused at home.  We know that nothing was done about this.

Susan, I am really happy for you that you are free of the Assembly mentality and for what sounds like a blessed career.  I am also glad that your last precious time with your husband was positive, so you have those memories.  I know that scars stay on hearts forever, and I pray for the Lord to always comfort you.  :)

Karen Bauer Sanford

Karen,

It is my understanding that the man you are referring to has recently been questioned by the authorities and has some serious explaining ahead of him.

It is also my understanding that this particular man was guilty of more than covering up the abuse of Judy Geftakys, he is guilty of physcially abusing her himself.

I don't know if the above info can be proven by Brent's biblical standard of "two or three witnesses" so he must for now remain nameless, but it is outrageous that this same man is resisting all attempts to convince him to step down from leadership!

His arrogance is chilling. I almost pity this fool who will one day face a judgement more severe than any we can lay on him here.

Scott

Scott,

The thing that kills me about this guy is that I used to stick up for him to the other kids (in HS) who didn't like him.  I saw him as my brother and figured I should.  It's very sad to see how people are not as they once seemed--and I wasn't even ever in the Assembly.

Thank you for your contribution to the board, Scott!!

Susan:

I'm so sorry for the pain you suffered, and I am thankful that you are sharing your story.  Shout it from the rooftop!

God bless you,

Anne Marie Garisek (former HB)

I think that it's "easier" to tell a story after one is out of the abusive
and dangerous situation. Wives and children still in those situations
risk allot to tell their stories. They're probably reading these posts
and wishing they could do something, but are focused on surviving
themselves.  :-\

Michelle - I think if you read John's post carefully, you will see that he doesn't minimize brutalization of wives by their husbands. At least that's not how I read it.
Pat

Susan:

I'm so sorry for the pain you suffered, and I am thankful that you are sharing your story.  Shout it from the rooftop!

God bless you,

Anne Marie Garisek (former HB)

Susan,

I greatly appreciate your courage and I'm sorry our families couldn't have spent more good times together.  I remember having fellowship (in the truest sense) with Tom. If we'd lived closer we could have been best friends I think.

However, there was a time when I saw something in his behavior which I couldn't relate to and I guess now I know what it was.  I think it was after you cut your hair. How blind we were (I was). I apologize sincerely to you for that.

While in HB we never had the misfortune to have DG visit. AM and I did meet with Dave & Judy several times and experienced the totalitarian dictates of David and some very strange degrading and infantile conduct from Judy while in his presence. We were always delighted to get away from them (him) and felt like we had slipped through a crack into a kind of liberty afterwards. I'm sorry you had to experience such regular intrusion and domination.

I was deeply saddened hearing the news of the accident and it was very disconcerting later when I was with a group of ATV'ers and one leading brother was with us. He stated the same fallacious reference to Tom being out from under the covering and seemed so incredibly cold hearted and matter of fact. This leading brother is hopefully examining some of the many things he said like this over the years through different eyes. I don't mention his name because I'm hoping to talk to him personally tonight.  I also hope that if anyone has anything against me they come forward as well. These things need to be exposed and examined. It's now or never as far as I'm concerned. I don't think we can afford to wait until judgment day.

I hope your sorrow has and will turn to joy.

Tony Garisek (former Fullerton and HB - out for 10+ years)

are you really making the claim that physical abuse should not be reported to the authorities, based on the idea that the resulting inroads on the freedom of the general population (of abusers!) is a greater evil? your extravagant style of humor and exaggerated phrasing really cloud your meaning, especially for people who don't find this topic humorous.


anyone who extracted that interpretation from this thread would not be someone who had enough mental capacity to use a computer in the first place, so i think our freedoms are safe for another day. btw, when was the last time a brown-shirted social worker tried to enter your house, and how could you tell she was a lesbian? perhaps she was merely ups.


you're paranoid.


i think it needs to be more than said. it needs to be enforced.


this is also a tragedy, and i am sorry your friend had to go through this terrible ordeal. however, this is an extremely unique situation that occurs far less than true cries for help, which in turn occurs far less than unreported abuse. realize that an abused woman or child is far less likely to say something to anyone about it than they are to be silent or even work actively to cover it up. so by the time she is talking, you can be a solid 95% sure that she is telling you far less than actually occured, and she is very desparate. the absolute worst possible thing she could hear at that point is "it is your fault, keep quiet, its your duty to take this punishment without complaint, and i don't believe you anyway." that someone like betty could repeatedly hand down this advice for so many years was a chilling and horrifying discovery for me.

susan: you are clearly a very strong and intelligent woman. you have done a very brave thing by putting your story here, and i applaud you for it. it is so wonderful that you were able to have your marriage healed. i am so impressed by the balance in what you recounted between respectful tenderness towards your husband and determination to tell the truth that might set others free, and i applaud you for it.

brian

ps john, your lack of any response to susan's story, yet strong reaction to the suggestion that abuse should be reported to authorities, is quite tellin'.

could you please clarify this extremely general statement? i don't see its relevence in the context of this thread. you must have been responding to something you read, but i can't figure out exactly what.

Wow do you ever sound like my father David, the arrogance, the name calling, the paranoia.  Like my husband says, if you have done nothing wrong, you should have nothing to worry about.  Fear is usually born of a guilty conscience.


Aw, the conspiracy theory strikes again.  Maybe it is just that the state intends to require those that they give recognition to, as being influencial and as being authorities in people's minds and lives, take the responsiblity to be ethical and not cover up immoral actions like WIFE AND CHILD BEATING.  They wanted the people who others turn to for advice and help to be required to make sure real help came to the victims, and if they didn't the state wanted there to be legal recourse for compensation for the victims in the form of a lawsuit.  Of course, a lawsuit can never make right the damage of the abuse.  The law recognizes that and so gives the only thing it can, money.  What a thought!


If this is true, it is to bad and there will always be ones who take advantage of and use the flaws in the system.  That does not make the system or the police, the bad guys, it would make the liar the bad guy.  There was obviously a need for those kinds of laws.  Probably prompted by situations like my family's in which, those who we went to for help made the situation worse by covering up the abuse.  What if my mother had died as a result of the abuse?  All of those who knew of the ongoing abuse and did nothing would be accessories to the fact.  Do you know John how many women die each year as a result of domestic violence, how many children?  Do you think the cops should be kept out of it?  That is what we were told.  "Let "God's government" handle it", "a Christian doesn't take another to court".  Well, what happened to the protection from God's government.  A pathetic, "You can't do that again." Then send us all home, with an abuser now angry at being caught.  Recipe for disaster.  For to long in history, it has been unbalanced on the side of the abuser.  Maybe if you care so much, work on legislation that will better protect the guy being lied against while still protecting the abused instead of making up stupid ditties and puting them on a board where people are really spilling out their hearts about real hurts that happened to them and discussing responsiblities.  

ah, another extremely general observation. i don't suppose you have a point behind these random observations that might in some remote way tie into your reason for posting them in this thread? do you think someone posting in this thread is sinning as a result of someone else's sin? why are you being deliberately opaque?


well, thats very sweet of you, john, i never knew you thought of me as pretty. is that also relevant in some way? is it a clue?  ???

Many thanks to everyone who has posted a compassionate and insightful response to my story.  I never thought I would feel comfortable in bringing this to the light- but I am very thankful that 13 years later I have experienced healing in telling the truth.  I didn't even know this was still a "live" issue for me until I read Judy's account.  This healng in my heart was an unexpected gift!  Thank you for providing a forum for honest dialogue on this website.

I am still a widow under God's excellent watch and care, and doing well!  My daughters witnessed the abuse and have a few scattered memories, but as a family we have had many opportunities as they've become teenagers (Hannah is now 20, Rachel-18 and Abigail-15) to talk about relationships, dating, healthy boundaries, etc.  We've put their father's behavior in perspective, and everything is working out for good according to God's plan.  We attend Calvary Chapel in Santa Barbara.

I do have a couple of points to add....

First, the rumors that Tom died because he left fellowship are grievous to me because the morning of his death, he was having his quiet time, going to work as usual, and treating the children and I very lovingly.  Was everything just "fixed" when we left fellowship?  No, it was not.  But we were on our way to recovery as a family.  God does take evil and turn it into good for His glory!

So, if you are an abused sister reading this, take courage and report your situation! There are compassionate brothers and sisters ready to help you in the healing process.  There are legal actions that can protect you.  Email me privately if you wish... you do not have to go through this alone, thinking if you were only worthy enough, your spouse would treat you better.  I love what some of these wonderful married brothers are writing about accountability and their own indignation at the
poor treatment of women in the assembly.

The fear of judgment for leaving fellowship and the use of Tom's death in promoting this is deplorable to me.  It was a subtle rumor, but one that struck at the hearts of every family in fellowship at the time.  We had no life insurance and had a new mortgage.  The help the LB offered was for me to move back in with the brethren- who would guide me in raising my children as a single parent.  No thank you!

Second, I've struggled with a very strong fear that if I ever publically denounced the assembly's oppressive practices, or brought to light the spousal abuse as an ex-member, my story would be minimized, my character questioned, and no one would believe me.  At the very least, I would be criticized for making Tom look bad, and that was something I did not want to do, for my kids' sakes, especially.  At the very extreme, I would not only lose my inheritance for leaving fellowship and taking "the easy way out," I would be punished by God in this lifetime.  It was a horrible mental agony to wrestle with whether or not his death and my new circumstances were a result of our disobedience to God via the LBs.  (Despite our peace from God about leaving fellowship.) This is baggage that no one, whether they are sick or dying, should have to bear.

In retrospect, I wish I had spoken up about all these things earlier, and if I had been aware of Judy's situation (and maybe others), I would have responded immediately and not hesitated to come to their aid.  

It is very sad that lives that had become so enmeshed, living together, spending long hours in meetings together, spending every holiday together, could not be more transparent.  We were hiding dark secrets behind our "Are you rejoicing today?" masks.  The church is for sick sinners and Christ is our doctor and healer.  When will Christians stop killing their wounded and show the true testimony of grace and mercy towards the victimized??  Only then will the world find us honest, genuine, sincere, and an attractive choice among many alternatives.  

I am praising God for all of you who love the Lord, who are either in the assembly or not and are seeking God's direction for your lives, marriages and families.  GOD IS FAITHFUL!!

Rachel,

I sent you and your mom a PM.  

First of all, I want to 'weigh in' in concordance with John Malone's comments on the societal response to the issue of domestic violence.  Let us not mistake that a secular society, a world without Christ, will provide a thoroughly secular and oppressive response to the problem, resulting in the erosion and loss of God-given rights. As Pres. Bush said today, people do not have rights and freedoms because America says so, but because God ordains 'certain inalienable' rights to human beings.  In a society dealing with everything from terrorism to violence, the secular answer is the erosion of freedoms.  Folks, John has demonstrated most of us suffer from serious ignorance of both Scripture and our own Constitution. By law, as a health care provider, I am a 'mandated reporter', but i am first a Christian who owes my primary allegiance to God, not Caesar.  We are too filled with the fables of modern thinking in our outlook.  Yes, I abhor violence to women and children, but I also abhor the biased conclusions of a court system which can be bought by the rich, which little esteems fatherhood.  I know something of John Malone's experience and perspective, and it is a simplistic error to characterize him as a narrow misogynist and thus write his conclusions off as invalid. Would be happy to dialog more on this...
Wayne

Good reading from a balanced biblical perspective:

Headship with a Heart | How biblical patriarchy actually prevents abuse. by Steven Tracy
Feb. issue of Christianity Today

Part 3


The woman's mind is made in such a way that, your earlier comments and paranoia where among many of the reasons we have not previously done any court proceedings other then the restraining order.  There is a thinking so pounded into a victim's brain of self doubt, thinking no one will believe you or even care, and an intense fear of the abuser on more then a physical level, that it takes time not to be completely paralyzed with fear at the intimidating prospect of facing your abuser in court.  The thought that maybe the abuser will get away with it, again, makes a victim physically ill.  Also, my mother was constantly told to just "trust God" to make the situation right and not to "take another Christian to court".  We were taught that as women we must submit to our husbands in all things and that meant always obeying.  My father was not about to tell us to go to the police where he may have had real accountability.    


The problem is there can be the temptation for the church leadership (and this was the case in my situation) to not report any of the abuse and to prevent the woman from doing so in order to maintain a "pure" image.  That is why there is a law that church leadership must report physical abuse within 48 hours.  The law wants to make sure that the violence is stopped even if the victim is afraid to go to an impersonal authority like the police.  The law wants the church leadership to take this seriously and realize the very real danger in those situations.  

Mr. Malone, maybe because you have never been the victim of this kind of long standing abuse, or maybe because you are a not a woman, you cannot understand all of the levels that this sort of abuse damages.  When you say the sorts of things that you said above, it hurts so badly.  I held my tongue for so long because of the kind of fear you have of the system.  Unless you can guarantee that you will be there to stop the abuse don't prevent the only real help out there for those victims in the form of the flawed protective services and the police, by using your words to reinforce a suppressing teaching.  Don't reinforce the thinking that it is some how the victim's fault when they are abused.  You said in your own post, "Once again, I have experience tempering my conclusions," and my own experience tempers my conclusions.  When I come on the bb and read your words it is very upsetting and painful.  It brings back in a rush, all the fears, teachings, and pain; I had to overcome to write my paper in the first place to expose the problems in the assemblies.  It is so upsetting that it affects the rest of my day.  That is how deep the pain run, which is reawaken by your words.  If I am confident compared to most of the people who have suffered abuses, I can only imagine the women that could further expose the abuses of the assembly yet are further intimidated by your responses.  I hope you will keep in mind what is the point and intended effect of the things you write and the goal you have in doing so.  My goal and hope is to expose the abuses and the problems that they stem from in the assembly. What is your goal and point?  Also realize that after reading your post, I have to try to go on with my day and it is hard.  I hope you will be considerate of where some of us are coming from.  

Sincerely,
Rachel Steepleton

Part 2


Couldn't your God make sure that a false witness does not falsely convict you?  A lot of people in the system do believe in God and respect their oath.  Not everyone or even "Most” of them are false witnesses.  I have been in court for a "domestic squabble", and went as a victim telling the truth.  I was scared to death; I was so scared of having to prove something that had happened in a closed room with no one else there.  I was so scared that I might not have met my burden of proof.  After all, no one else I had ever told, the leadership who I viewed as God's government, had ever cared enough to do anything.  I did not even have reason to believe they would come as a witness on my behalf to testify to my injuries.  I knew that the man who was willing to defy God and abuse me would be more then willing to lie, and he claimed to fear God.  Most people who will abuse another will have no qualms about lying.  I was so scared and I was only telling a part of all that had happened in my home.  It was that fear that was in the minds of most the women who sat beside me that day.  It was a fear that had kept some of them silent for years.  By the time I as a victim was desperate enough to do something I was so afraid, and felt so worthless and had been blamed for the abuse so many times by the abuser.  I could not see how anyone would ever believe me or want to help me.  This is the case for most victims.  Usually, as the victim, you are only there because you have no other option.  I know I was.  That is what it was in my case and in a numerous others I have heard or seen.  The worst cases of abuse are the quietest ones.



What statistics are those?  That exact reason was the reason my dad and Betty and George used to place the blame for the abuse on my mother.  The abuser always blames the abuse on the actions of the victim over and over, until the victim begins to believe that it really is their fault and that if they could just be better it would all be ok.  It is a sick reasoning and is the reason why so much abuse goes un-reported and un-dealt with.  


What Betty said, can be read in my paper and my mother's.  She said it to both of us.  That should be enough for you under the biblical standard of two or three witnesses.  If a third is needed, my husband was also there when Betty told it to me but he has allowed me to tell the story since it is primarily my story.


No matter how we tell our story, someone always thinks it is wrong.  If Susan had told her story in the third person, the question would have been raised about authenticity, now she tells it in the first person and you come down on her because of her husband being dead.  I think she was very equitable and honored her husband in how she told her story.  She also told her story in a way that allowed her to get her point across.  A point you seem to have missed.  Her point was that her husband, a " fun-loving, compassionate and ethical man" was changed by the influence of the assembly's (or lodge's) ideas and teachings that promote an attitude that propagates the abuse of women.  Her point was not to just tell of the abuse itself but to point out that this is a pattern of behavior in that ministry that shows a deeper problem.  Both Susan and I wish to encourage women and others who suffered abuse, physical, emotional, sexual, and spiritual, to come forward to clearly show that it is not just a problem of an isolated few but the abuse is symptomatic of a larger problem that has corrupted and has eaten away all but the shell of that ministry.

End of part 2

Part 1

Mr. Malone,

I am writing you privately and then will post this publicly.  I do not intend to respond to you any longer in the future if you are completely unentreatable regarding what I am about to say.

There is a psychology and a line of thinking regarding the physical abuse of vulnerable people, such as woman and children, that perpetuates that abuse and further binds the victims.  I speak from first hand experience as to how this works.


If there are the occasional mistakes that does not out weigh the need for help to the victims in life threatening situations.  Usually there is no investigation without real concerns repeated over a period of time.  People are really much more likely not to want to get involved.  Here are some facts:

Prevalence of Domestic Violence

Estimates range from 960,000 incidents of violence against a current or former spouse, boyfriend, or girlfriend per year1 to three million women who are physically abused by their husband or boyfriend per year.2
Around the world, at least one in every three women has been beaten, coerced into sex or otherwise abused during her lifetime.3
Nearly one-third of American women (31 percent) report being physically or sexually abused by a husband or boyfriend at some point in their lives, according to a 1998 Commonwealth Fund survey.4
Nearly 25 percent of American women report being raped and/or physically assaulted by a current or former spouse, cohabiting partner, or date at some time in their lifetime, according to the National Violence Against Women Survey, conducted from November 1995 to May 1996.5
Thirty percent of Americans say they know a woman who has been physically abused by her husband or boyfriend in the past year.6
Intimate partner violence is primarily a crime against women. In 1999, women accounted for 85 percent of the victims of intimate partner violence (671,110 total) and men accounted for 15 percent of the victims (120,100 total).7
While women are less likely than men to be victims of violent crimes overall, women are five to eight times more likely than men to be victimized by an intimate partner.8 From 1993 to 1998, victimization by an intimate accounted for 22 percent of the violence experienced by females. It accounted for three percent of the violent crime sustained by males.9
Women of all races are about equally vulnerable to violence by an intimate.10
The most rapid growth in domestic relations caseloads is occurring in domestic violence filings. Between 1993 and 1995, 18 of 32 states with three year filing figures reported an increase of 20 percent or more.12
Domestic Homicides

On average, more than three women are murdered by their husbands or boyfriends in this country every day. In 1999, 1, 642 murders were attributed to intimates; 74 percent of the murder victims (1,218 total) were women.14
Male murder victims are substantially less likely than female murder victims to be killed by an intimate partner. In 1999, intimate partner homicides accounted for 32 percent of the murders of women and approximately four percent of the murders of men.15
Health Issues

About half of all female victims of intimate violence report an injury of some type, and about 20 percent of them seek medical assistance.16
Thirty-seven percent of women who sought treatment in emergency rooms for violence-related injuries in 1994 were injured by a current or former spouse, boyfriend or girlfriend.17
Domestic Violence and Children

In a national survey of more than 6,000 American families, 50 percent of the men who frequently assaulted their wives also frequently abused their children.22
Slightly more than half of female victims of intimate violence live in households with children under age 12.23


It was this thinking, that just having a bible would be enough to get your kids taken away, that it was all about persecution for our faith, that was pounded into our heads over and over and driven by this fear we not only did not report the violence going on in our family, we lied to cover it.


While I do not always agree with the actions in the Child Protection Services, I do not think that their problems justify leaving victims in an abusive home (one in which they are being physically hurt).  It was those problems in the system that so many people used to justify, ignoring my situation and just staying out of it.  However staying out of it did not solve the very real problems.  I was still abused and so was my mother.  Maybe instead of preaching the ills of the system, give an alternative, a way to protect those being abused.  A lot of times the kids will be sent to another family member's home where they will be safe.  Or make sure when you know of a situation like this that prompts you to make some kind of criminal report, that you stay involved to make sure the kids are not further victimized by the system.  Again, you throw out the baby with the bath water.  While there are problems in the system, does the fact that sometimes people are falsely accused or falsely convicted mean that we should not ever tell the government, that we should stay out of it?  Well, if this is what you decide then it is on your head what happens to the victims after that.  

End of part 1

Being a Christian who owes ones "primary allegiance to God, not Caesar" actually supports reporting suspicions of child abuse or domestic violence.  As a Christian, I would think it would be your primary goal to protect the victim, not the perpetrators, of such abuse.  This line of reasoning makes no sense.

I think Dr. Mathias' stance is the biblically supported role.

Being a Christian who owes ones "primary allegiance to God, not Caesar" actually supports reporting suspicions of child abuse or domestic violence.  As a Christian, I would think it would be your primary goal to protect the victim, not the perpetrators, of such abuse.  This line of reasoning makes no sense.

The biblical mandate to protect the victim and oppressed is undeniable, whether it comes to reporting domestic violence or protecting the unborn. However, I do not hold the state as a perfect model of justice or mercy. All I am saying is that in the name of 'mandated reporting', innocent people have had children taken away, reputations besmirched, etc. I am not for one moment denying the need for the state's responsibility to protect its citizens, only reminding that the state also has the potential, historically demonstrated, of oppressing almost any group, whether by gender, race, age, etc.
NONE of this argument is meant to downplay the awful seriousness of the horrific abuse suffered by Judy, Rachel, and others on this BB. Please read my first post on my conviction of the churches' role in all this.  The church must be a safe place for the abused and victimized, not a haven for perpetrators.

Once again, I am not debating the merits of the governments system.  I am simply saying, if the church want to be "God's Government" as I was taught they were to be, as I grew up, they need to have a viable alternative to the State or Federal Government's solutions.  The church's solution needs to give adequate protection and be accountable for it.  If it can't or feels it shouldn't then the secular government needs to be called in to protect the victims of abuse and hold the abusers accountable in a real way.

so you are now making some kind of link between faith and intelligence? what is your link exactly? that the more intelligent someone is the more likely they are to believe exactly what you do? or the more someone believes exactly what you believe the more intelligent they become?

do not presume to understand a part of myself that carries my deepest suffering, that is, the area of my faith. yes, i have some confusions, but i am working through them as best i can, with a desperate and heartfelt desire to know and believe in the Truth. as you evidently recall, i confided a small part of that desperate journey i have been on for the past few years to you in a private chat. what you did here is bring up a very personal and private struggle i have been having that i shared with you in a moment of genuine trust. you published my private struggle to the world, painting it in harsh and vulgar colors. you did this in an attempt to discredit me on a public bulletin board because you could not refute my arguments directly. this shows that you have a weak and petty character.


by your own words david mauldin and i are the only ones on the board that you know of who do not measure up to your standard of 'christian'. so on a public bb that is read by a vast majority of folks you would call christian, you will not explain youself, because you are so worried that little ole david and i won't understand??


interesting. the state has never attempted to enter my house. nor have they ever attempted to enter the house of anyone in my family. nor have they attempted to enter the house of any of my friends, nor the houses of their families. i do know someone whose house they entered. it was after a little girl died of neglect. the state came to take away the other daughter.

so why exactly did the state try to enter your house, in their terms? did one of their teachers see something that made them think there might be a problem?


i always thought this cliche was humorous in the way it clearly shows the basic futility of trying to reason with someone who is paranoid. your use of it is equivalent to hitting yourself on the head with a frying pan.


yeah, i saw a special on 20/20 the other day about all those thousands of christians in nebraska who had their kids taken away because of all the bibles in their house. ummmmmm, right.

i emphasized the 'if's in your statement to point out that this is the beginning of a very long and drawn out 'what if' statement. note: none of the following events actually occured. any resembleance to actual persons living or deceased or any real-life events is merely coincidential.


thanks so much for clearing up that point about the paranoia.
*smiling reassuringly*
*edging slowly towards the door*


someone who is paranoid is unqualified to say who is unqualified to say who is paranoid.



you're saying that talking in a christian forum about what christians should do and say in an abusive situation is equivalent to doing math in math class? even blind ole me would agree with this.


you are enemies with a "brother"?


easily verifiable statistics. rachel threw a bunch at you so i am not going to take the time right now.


this is a really disturbing mythical statistic that you made up here. john, have you ever hit your wife, or any other woman, or any child, because you thought they were out of line?


no its not. its not even close. that was a horrible and scary thing to say.


yeah, thats really sad and very wrong too. so?


well, i have all the years of experience that the first-hand witnesses i've talked to have had for tempering their conclusions to rely on. do i need to find witnesses older than you are for you to be able to wonder if they are telling the truth? or did you believe rachel and judy's account of dark abuse, but not the parts about what betty said?


leave susan and rachel alone. i mean it.
*frantically waving red flag in front of bull*


john had an insight! he can be taught!
theres hope for you yet, my friend.


it cracks me up that you keep going on about innuendo, yet whenever i ask you to clarify just one of the many innuendos you have left lying about (note: one sin leads to another) you back up so fast you almost lose your train of thought.  ;D

have a nice weekend all,

brian

Rachel, you hit the 'nail on the head'.  It is a pathetic distortion of 'God's government' to justify any of the horror you endured. The mixing up of roles of church and state is a fundamental flaw in both sides of the issue.  I agree with you completely.
Wayne

Dear Susan,
  What a powerful and clear presentation of abusive Assembly relationship's.  Thank you so much for sharing it as I'm sure it was helpful to many.
  The axe is laid to the root of the Assembly tree and just a pruning job won't do the trick!
                                 God Bless,  Mark C.

Greetings Brent:

Any of your principles being violated now?

Malone.
One Alone.
Now please leave US alone!!!

John, until you have been beaten down (emotionally and physically) to the point where you can't cry anymore and don't know who you are as a person, you cannot begin to understand the fear, guilt, self-loathing, depression, and confusion that accompanies domestic violence.  

My intent in sharing my story was not to cause a debate (although I realize that this bulletin board is a forum for honest and respectful discussion and even disagreement), but to expose the heartbreak caused by legitimizing and ignoring the symptoms of abuse in the family.  There was a direct connection between the counsel given to us as a young, impressionable couple and the destructive behaviors that ensued.  I give God the glory for delivering both Tom and I from our mistakes and sins concerning this.

I also want to reiterate to anyone who hasn't read my first two postings on this matter, that I carefully weighed the possible embarrassment of sharing this story against the hope that someone might be helped, someone who might otherwise suffer terribly in silence, denial, or worse yet, be killed.  The lambs are hurting.  Please have compassion.

I have been gone for two days on business and find myself deeply concerned about the harsh and very long drawn out discussion on this matter of abuse...

Mr. Malone...whatever your situation is or was...you are definitely acting with a rare form of  harsh arrogance and misplaced intellect. I find your repeated angry postings...strongly offensive to even myself who has no personal or emotional attachment to this thread.  It seems you cannot refrain yourself from picking at the wounds...repeatedly arguing for the sake of argument...a rather bitter and frustrated personality trait for sure.

My profound apologies to Brian who I have known since his birth in Tuscola IL... and I still remember the days when my father lead his father and mother to a saving knowledge of Christ...in our home....in front of me. I lived with a young  Brian and his family when he was in Charleston IL...while I attended undergraduate school in pre-medicine. Rest assured Mr. Malone...Brian is safe in his salvation and understanding of Christ. Whatever personal struggles he has identified...certainly does not affect the ridiculous discussion of abuse of your civil rights. Sin has been committed, abuse is wrong. You need to back off and get a grip. Whatever brian's personal demons...you have no right to demand his removal from this BB. I personally couldn't disagree with your suggestion more vehemently than I do.

I apolgize to all who have been exposed to this pointless and painful banter....attacking anyone not supporting your (Mr. Malone's) view of these matters.  Mr. Malone you disappoint me at your age of 51, I would expect some patience and tact would be within your grasp. I challenge you to pause and maybe you should reflect on why you would even visit this site let alone participate...

My father always taught me self control  combined with simple courtesy and respect was the greatest sign of maturity and honor.....in a gentleman.

For the record:

I do not know how to look at people's Private messages.  If I did, I would not do it.

I don't know if Brian can do this or not, he is far more adept at computer stuff than I, so it is possible he may be able to snoop.  However,  I do not believe for one second that this is the case!

If I found out that Brian, or anyone else, was violating someone's privacy, I would boot them immediately. From the outset, I have been careful to maintain complete control over this website.  I can lock Brian out at any time, should the need arise.  I do have the ability to boot Brian,  however, I trust him completely.  He is doing work for me with regard to this website, for which I am thankful.  I would be happy indeed to find another employee with  work ethic and honesty that Brian exhibits.

I am solely responsible for the main webpage, including the very poor decoration.  I am an amature.  Brian is responsible for setting up the bulletin board,  which I am not able to do, because I don't know enough about MYSQL, etc.

He has done a great job, and has not once violated our working agreement.  I could not ask for a better webmaster.

Brian has no say when it comes to content on the website, but he is free to post his thoughts on the bulletin board as is everyone else.

He does not delete posts, or make executive decisions, without consulting me.

The other moderator, Mark Campbell, does delete posts, etc.  He does not have the ability to read anyone's mail, etc.

We delete posts for the following reasons only:

1.)Blasphemy
2.) Profanity
3.) Impersonation
4.) Foolish redundancy (recent example of 14 pages of posts with the letter "A" only on every post.)

Also, regarding Brian's spiritual status,  ask him yourselves.  I know where he stands, and it is NOT where I stand, but I do not believe, at this time, that it is a hinderance to the gospel going forth.  I have not asked Brian to preach, teach, or counsel me concerning spiritual matters, nor has he attempted to do so.  People on this website are allowed to have differing views, but as long as I am involved, the official view will be that of giving glory to Jesus Christ.

I do pray for Brian daily, and I suppose the rest of you could do this as well.

Brian is staying on as my tech support, and I am happy to have him.

Brent Tr0ckman,
editor, owner, head honcho, GeftakysAssembly.com

Brad,

Your rebuttal was impeccable.

Brent,

Your stance is above reproach.

Neither should have been necessary, but I'm sure Brian will be pleased to know others stood up for him in his absence. Though I thought he has done a pretty good job for himself so far!

I suggest this issue be put to rest completely.

John,

Yes, it is a tough subject to deal with when you are talking about someone who has died.  However, I for one did not see Susan as disgracing Tom’s memory at all. Sure, there are lots of details of sin that I do not care to hear about, but I was able to appreciate her story.  Remember, she also said how he ended his journey here on Earth:


This sounds like a thankful woman to me.  Thankful for where God had brought her husband.

True, maybe we should be careful about some facts that we bring up about those that are no longer with us.  But, some details are helpful.  After all, I am sure that you wouldn’t want to have your Bible edited, to remove things such as David’s sin of adultery and having Uriah put in to battle where he would die.  Maybe I shouldn’t mention this because it may disgrace the memory of David (a man after God’s own heart, who would fulfil his will).  Just a thought…

If I am wrong, please feel free to correct me.

Can we get this thread back to the theme it is addressing?

Every time Mr Malone posts a comment, on any thread, it diverges into an argument over his intellect, anger and hatred towards the brethren.

Perhaps if we would quit responding to his posts and continue with the themes we are talking about, he would begin to post useful comments (or just go away).

There are deeper and more useful things to discuss than Malone's superior intelligence.

Susan, I am grateful for your post and being willing to come out with your story.  Hopefully it can help others to not be fearful in speaking the truth.

I know it was a difficult thing for you, and I'm grieved how someone could post such flaming insults at you because of it.

My advice -- for Brian, Brent, retread and anyone else being drawn into his folly is just let him be ...... there are more important, serious and efifying discussions to get into on this board.

Ken,

Excellent point made. Susan, Thank you for your effort to reveal some of your past...I am grateful for your information and I know it has had a strong and immediate reaction from the SLO leadership...despite what you might feel from this BB and its posters.

God bless you and the others who have shared in your misery...we care and we want to help.

Again Susan,

Thank you for being willing to share your story.  There is a teaching and interraction promoted by the teaching in the assembly that places victims in bondage and helps to perpetuate abuse.  

I do not care what anyone else thinks or believes about the dynamics of abuse or the age old question of why the victim does not have the abuser arrested.  I have learned about those things first hand and it was a hard lesson.  I can not expect those who have not gone through it to always understand it, I would not wish the experiences that teach those lessons on anyone.  I do not need the understanding of everyone in order to be firm in what I know.  

I think an interesting discussion along this line might be a discussion of what kinds of teachings have helped facilitate and proprogate the abusive treatment and the teachings that refute that.

To get the ball roling.  There was the teaching of what it means to submit as a wife to your husband.  We were taught that meant we had to obey my father always and submit to even his abuse.  We were to just trust that if God wanted it differently God would change the situation.  We were also to trust that God would protect us.  That may be true in word but the practice was to just do nothing except try harder not to make our abuser angry.(I will preventatively ask that we all please ignore John Malone's response to this as it is guaranteed to be aggrivating.  He has privately responded to me regarding the letter I wrote to him and posted here but only under the aggreement that I would not post anything he said to me.  It was all to be under strict confidence.)

Thanks to all who are re-directing this discussion to 1) what teachings and attitudes and scriptures were used to propogate this view of women; 2) what scriptures (and their applications) can be shared to encourage us to love one another and prevent this type of destructive behavior in the future; and 3) testimonies from healthy couples on how they have balanced the submission issue with mutual love, trust, and respect.

The last thing I will say in defense of sharing my story is that I waited 13 years to bring this to the light.  If I were angry or bitter and wanted to disgrace my husband, I would have told the story in a different spirit a long time ago.

I could not live with my conscience to think that mere criticism and disgrace should stop me from helping the defenseless.  How many other sisters out there have either witnessed abuse or been victims?  You may not wish to post your story details here, but I entreat you to get help!

I brought this to the Lord in prayer again last night, and He assured me that I was doing the right thing.  Tom is in heaven, and he does not need to be defended- he is safe in the arms of Jesus.  I will stand before God for my own reputation.  And if I know this dead  brother's heart, as I think I do, he would not be opposed to having our story shared, because beneath the layers of assembly dogma, he loved the brothers and sisters and me- God's grace and mercy can overcome anything.  Yes, I am thankful!!

Umm? Maybe not so quiet, but persistent and engaging? Hay, that's my wife you're talking about!

Wonder no more!

Mr. Malone's quote:  "What if more sisters over the years had with quiet, Godly persistence, engaged their husbands over the clearly unsavory and unkind things going on and held them to account? I wonder".

Mr. Malone, that is where we started, and we were silenced.

Here is something ironic, in light of the thread.

My writings definitely got the snowball rolling, but it didn't get really big until some women helped.

Rachel and Judy were Hiroshima

the women who George abused were Nagasaki

I am sad to say that precious few men did much.  Oh yes, there were some to be sure, but it was the women, who did what they men wouldn't-couldn't.

Thanks Ladies.

Brent

Now you're stating, "I don't have a grudge against Gerald: I scarcely know him. You are making up an issue that's not there. You jumped in the middle of this, and are WAY off base."

Please reconcile these two statements.

Scott

Verne, thank you for clarifying your quote.  The whole issue is cause for introspection before God on my part.  Again, I look to God's amazing grace and how he turns evil for good in His perfect time.

Yes, sister, Mr. Malone is correct when he mentions "twisting of scriptures by misguided Calvinists", and I am taking it out of the context in which he originally intended it to be, but you have no idea of the confusion that some of Calvin's teachings can do to the spiritual life of a believer.  This includes infant baptism. I'm assuming that because you are a member of the Presbyterian Church, that you believe this teaching is correct. There are hurting, vulnerable people here and no one needs to be lead down the blind alley of discussing something that does not have a scriptural basis.  So, yes, save it for "one day".

Dear MichelleDJ

"Christians are the only army I know of who shoots bullets at each other."

first of all, that isn't true.  Chiropractors, attorneys, political parties, teachers, camp counselors and many other people "circle the wagons and shoot inward."

Be careful maligning the Body of Christ as a whole.  Again, this is not meant to be a harsh reprimand, just a gentle reminder.  Most Christians I know are amazing people.  What we are all about here on the website is not attacking Christianity, but setting Christians free from bondage and false teaching.

It is especially hard, because many of the people are deceived.

Brent

Folks,
   With all due respects, we have digressed from the serious issue of spouse abuse in a Christian family to the merits/demerits of Calvinism. Let's get back on track. Anyone have a chance to read this month's Christianity Today article, "Headship with a Heart"?

Amen dad!
 
   The ability to strain at a gnat and swallow a camel is unfortunately all too easy for those of us raised in the assembly
     
                      Nate

oh and I forgot one thing,
 
   Dear John Malone,
 
        If you're interested, I can give you the names of some excellent militia groups in North Montana. You seem to be on the same page with them psychologically.
        Oh, and to quote someone else (out of context): The USA: love it or leave it.  (wait a minute, thats the assembly's motto!)

                                                            Nate

I stand corrected rudy,
  but the only way I know how to respond to that kind of vitrole (correct spelling?) is through humor-- it was a joke and I apologize if it ws conveyed as anything more than that.
                 Nate

For a wonderful, godly book about abuse (especially for abuse victims of any kind) please peruse The Wounded Heart by Dan Allender.  This book really got to the wounds I'd been hiding from in my own sexually abused past.  It was the most painful book I've ever read - because I generally avoid pain like the plague, and it helped me face it, in a godly manner.

Rudy,
  it was not my intention to joke about such a serious matter, believe me it is the last thing i want to joke about. It takes some serious courage to tell a story like that and I have only compassion and regret that stories like this are far too common...the theology behind it is why I left the assembly.
  That said, the posts from John Malone merit some sort of response, and rather than ranting and throwing doctrine back in his face, I chose to use a little humor, because if there is one thing me and other assembly folks are guilty of, it is excessive seriousness. On the other hand too, John's posts saddened me deeply, and so, to borrow a phrase, I laughed to keep from crying. If it came across as a little caustic for the particular topic, I again apologize and invite the web administrator to remove my comments.

                    waiting for justice and mercy to embrace,
                                                   Nate

Thank you, Susan, for sharing your story and for all your postings on this subject.  You have shown a spirit of graciousness and courage that increases my faith in God's ability to make things right.

Many blessings to you and your family.

I am really saddened by Susan's account, but not surprised.  The sisters in fellowship often look exhausted, sickly, withdrawn, submissive to the point of being non-persons.  This is really WRONG, and I wonder if the brothers reading this are recognizing their OWN WIVES AND SISTERS in the fellowship.

Can't give my real name and address at this point, but Judy and Susan's experiences are probably just the ugly tip of the iceberg.  

Thank you guest.  I know from private accounts told to me that you are right.  I really hope these women will get the courage to come forward with their stories.  Being a woman who has suffered abuse and come forward, and the daughter of a woman who suffered abuse and came forward, I can say that telling your story will not be easy but freedom and safety are on the other side.  

No man has the right to push, shove, slap, hit, grab, bruise, pull, pick up and move, punch inademant objects in order to intimidate, scream at, call obcenities, or physically force a woman to do anything.  They have no right to dismiss you, humiliate you, threaten you with any kind of abandonment, including leaving you in the middle of no where when they are your ride home or locking you out of the house or place you are staying (ie hotel), act cruelly towards, demand sex from or intimidate you into anything.  That is abuse.  Just because you may think, I was never put in the hospital, or bruised that bad, doesn't make it a lesser problem or ok.  Your husband promised in his wedding vows to Cherish you.  None of the above would or could happen if the wife is being cherished.  Nothing the wife could do, should justify any of the above behavior, including being mouthy or nagging, or "not submitting".

I hope there are more women out there who will be as brave as my mother and Susan have been.  There is help for you and a life with love and no fear on the other side.

Again the "system" and it's horrendous effects.

The sisters should be able to fix their hair, wear make up and even, can I say it, color their toe nails! There, I've said it. But it looks good. It's hygienic and maybe even a little alluring. Whoa! Now I've gone too far!

But the system (especially Betty's influences) has all kinds of terrible effects and the sisters have a lot of unlearning to do. With the help of bold, courageous ones like you, Rachel, and brothers who are real men,  it'll happen however slowly.

Rachel,

A few years ago I was involved with a group that established a shelter for abused women and children in my home town.

One of the most important things they did was to be available to women who needed to get out of their situation but were afraid to leave.

It is one thing to encourage an abused woman to leave her situation and another to help her - as you are more aware than most of us.

I propose something along these lines: That several of the women who post on this board, particularly on the west coast, who have left fellowship and are NOT in an abusive situation, make it well known through this board and other mediums that they will, at the drop of a hat, come to any woman who needs help.

That help could run the gamut from just being willing to listen or to actually go to the woman and help her leave her situation.

Just a thought that might be worth fleshing out. Any takers?

Scott

I have two relatives who are rape and abuse counselors as well as other friends who are agents of the State of California in a variety of occupations.  I will get all the information I possibly can by Thursday and make it available in the meeting as well as posting here.

Toni (it's Toni, right?),

Thank you for getting the ball rolling. Love is a verb, right? Love needs feet to get moving!

I don't know most of the women who are posting here as I "left fellowship" long ago and am from the Midwest, but maybe you know them well enough to contact them via email or message.

I think practical applications of Christ's love are more important than a lot of the things we posters do here. And I'm sure there is at least one sister out there in a bad situation who is just waiting for practical help.

Anyway, as this takes shape, I am more and more out of my depth and will step aside and let you sisters take over.

I will fly out from Florida though if you REALLY need me! ;D

Scott

While on any given day it would give me great joy to fly the flag of a sister in Christ, alas I'm a brother, spelled Tony - Anthony!

Just the same I'm getting the information and won't be embarassed doing it!

DOH! :-[

You go, girl! I mean, you go . . .

Shoot. You know what I mean, bro!

Scott, any sister who is hurting can email me and I will call them at my expense at their convenience, as well as assist in any way I can.  Thank you, dear brothers, who are taking an active role in praying, posting, and offering practical help!

I am looking forward to reading the information on professional help/shelters for abused women.  Thanks-

I also encourage people to contact Connie Wellik in Ventura, (an ex-assembly member) who posted on this website just this week. She has done this sort of counseling for years.  She has offered to help. Connie is a godly and compassionate person (and happily married) who will give practical and God-honoring counsel.

If fear is an issue for you (as it was for me), post as a guest just so we can pray for you and encourage you.  You are not alone.  

And now, I have to sign off and paint my toenails!  :-)

Any woman that feels in danger but doesn't know what to do is more then welcome to email me.  I check my mail very regularily. (Several times a day.)  I am willing to call them at my expense to just talk, if that is what they want or direct them to where they can go and what they can do if they need safety.  I know of a number of reasources in LA and a couple nation wide, because of research I have done on the behalf of my mother.  I am willing to be of any help I can.  Just contact me and we can go from there.  Or contact Susan or Connie.  There is real help and safety for any in danger.  There is real help in healing.  There is hope for the future no matter where you are now.

Added type of abuse:  preventing or dismissing the need for medical care of any kind including regular gyn/ob visits or prenatal visits.  No one should ever be more then a couple weeks into a pregnancy without getting to a doctor.  Money is not a legitimate excuse as there are free services.  Lack of symptoms of a problem, is not a legitmate excuse for not seeing the doctor.  Number of previous pregnancies is actually a reason to see a doctor earlier as anything over 3 - 5 pregnancies (depending on the age of the mother) is considered of higher risk for problems both the mother and the baby.  Actually there is no legitimate excuse for not seeing a doctor by the first or second month of pregnancy or within 6 weeks postpartum.  

I didn't know if it was necessary to post this, but I thought, "just in case..."

Any woman in the Seattle area who needs help may contact me, twenty four hours a day.  I drive all over the region daily and can talk with you on your terms and at my expense.  I have no children and can easily accommodate you in my home until more permanent help can be secured.  

My email is available with my profile and my private contact numbers can be obtained from Brent and Suzie Tr0ckman.

Life is too short and too beautiful to live in fear!

I am also available to anybody.  I am home all day.  e-mail me for contact phone numbers.  There is no reason NOT to get help!  There are many of us available.  I am in the Los Angeles area.

Okay, my two cents as well - If there are any women in StL who need an outside shoulder to cry on, I'm available as well.  I would also be willing to walk through any of the books I recommended with you if you'd like.  I'm no counselor, that's for sure, but I'm a sister!

::smooches::

Unfortunately, I do not think many of the abused are allowed to read this web-site, but we can pray....

For those in the Seattle area, another good resource is the Center For the Prevention of Sexual and Domestic Violence-- I believe its run by a woman named Marie Fortune.
       
                                            peace,
                                                Nate

I think it is a shame that so many of us, because of our "assembly speak and our assembly protocol", failed to ask the right questions in the right way with the right spirit to ascertain the abuse that was going on- not only with these sisters, but with the young people as well.

WHAT IS THIS ABOUT?

Yeah, what is it about?

  peace and love,

         Nate

Dear Chuck, John and Rachel

I have to agree with Chuck on this one.  My kids were born in the living room, 2 of em have never seen an MD, the other 3 haven't more than once or twice.

Suzie had midwives for all pregnancies, no MD..

I do not abuse her.  Rachel, I know you very well, and I know you don't mean exactly what your post seemed to say, but I am saying this just to make sure that people do not misunderstand your position, based on your words, which perhaps were not carefully chosen.

I am with Chuck on this one.

Brent

I would never go a couple of weeks into a pregnancy without seeing the chiropractor!!

Segue...

I wore a brown shirt yesterday.  ???

I was going to add this after re-reading what Rachel wrote.

Living here in hippie-mecca, I know a lot of midwives and natural medicine types in general.  Shoot, my in-laws are still hippies.  I have asked several of them, esp. the midwives, about home birthing and "natural" (read: non-traditional) pregnancy care.  Every one of them has stressed that they feel that first and foremost the woman should choose the method that she is most comfortable with so that she might have the best success.  If she feels the most comfortable in the hospital, she should be in the hospital.  One of them stated to me just last week that she felt that if a woman was really worried and stressed about having her baby at home, she was not as likely to have the most successful pregnancy that she could, because of her stress.  

So....I was thinking that Rachel may have been referring to women who WANT to go to the doctor, and those husbands who will not "allow" it.  Certainly if a woman, or any other adult, wishes to see a doctor, they should be free to do so.

If they don't want to, more power to 'em.

PS-I will vouch for the home-birthed, non-MD'ed Tr0ckman children as five of the most delightful, healthy, and well-adjusted children I have ever known.  
                       **Can I get some overcomer points for this?**

Ok. to clear this up.  I meant lack of medical attention.  Midwife, Nurse Practitioner, any of the above would constitute fine medical attention.  Also, I meant that the lack of medical care in combination with other "red flag" warnings of abusive behavior.  If you have a personal philosophy on medical care that would not have you going to a doctor regularily and both spouses agree, fine.  I meant that it is wrong to, as a pregnant woman, be prevented from medical care because the husband thinks it is not a priority, financially or otherwise.  My own parents had two of their three kids at home, I think home birth can be a wonderful way to have your kids.  I think Mid-wives are great.  I also think that if a woman is being cared for and cherished by her husband, this whole medical issue will be moot.  He will die making sure she is ok.  I meant that the lack of medical care in combination with other abusive behavior.

Ok, this isn't sticking with the abuse topic but I've always wondered why anyone, in this day and age, would risk having a child at home. I question the ability of anyone to sanitize a home environment. And, I don't think the standard household has emergency medical equipment available in case of complications. I am not on "Little House on the Prairie" and I don't have an aversion to most medical professionals.

There's a family I know that has nine children.  The first three were born in a hospital. The next one or two were born on the grade (the highway mountain pass on the way to the hospital).  The next ones were born at home :)  I see that as a good reason.

Another one:  I don't really trust doctors.  I've heard a statistic that, while the average life expectancy of americans is around 70 years old, the average life expecatancy of medical doctors is 58.  
And their so-called science (knowledge)--changes every year.  Breast feed, no don't breast-feed, ok breast-feed again.  Lay baby on back, no lay baby on stomach, no lay baby on back again. etc.

Another one (more directed to the brown shirts): If the government wants to have a say in how to catch crooks.  I say, "Ok.".  If the governement wants to have a say in how to defend the nation, I say "Ok."  But if the governments to have a say in how I raise my own child.  I say "Nuh uh."  

     Can you tell that we have just had a baby?  It seems that there are so many "well intentioned" individuals out there and it seems that when you have a baby they come out of the woodwork!  By the time our baby was a week old I felt like telling all those "well intentioned" individuals that they could just go and jump off a bridge.
     I'm beginning to wonder what happened to the "listen to your mother" concept.  I mean people have been having babies for centuries - don't you think that the generation before has ANYTHING good to say?  Mankind would survive if we all lived in log cabins in the Great White North and had no govt., no lawyers, no grocery stores, no MDs, etc. (but then again a lot of us would be dead, but hey that's just a side note  ;)).
     Also - sometimes I think people don't really have much of a choice when it comes to where they have their babies.  Like Arthur said about the family with nine kids - they didn't have much of a choice where they had their kids - they just came SO fast that there wasn't time to call a midwife - go to a hospital - or anything.  

Ok,
Again, maybe if I give you a little background or example of what I am talking about people will better understand me.

The woman who has had 7 or 8 kids and she is now having in her late forties and is having one miscarriage after another, hemoraging with each one to the point that she is having to go to the hospital.  The doctor tells her and her husband that her body is just worn out and can't handle these pregnancies any more and if she keeps miscarrying and hemoraging like that she may die.  The options: use birth control or abstain from sex, there is nothing medically they can do to prevent these early miscarriages.  Her husband doesn't believe in birth control, and doesn't want to have to go without sex, so.... they just role the dice and keep on going and now just stay away from the doctor.  

So you all decide where the line is.....

Sorry Rachel, my post wasn't intended as a negative response to your posts.  You made it clear from your followup post what you meant to say, and I totally agree that if a woman wants medical care for her pregnancy, she should get it, and her husband should by any and all means see to it that she gets the proper care.  I was just speaking my mind on the general issue.  And I should qualify what I said by saying that our stay in the hospital had some plusses to it.  Some of the nurses were very helpful and kind to us.  It was overall a good experience.  It was a couple things that happened later that were somewhat unpleasant--namely dealing with a particular home health nurse...

Dear Chuck,

Thanks for your thoughtful analysis on this subject.  I think you made some very important points.  From my standpoint, Judy and Rachel's stories point to blatant cover-up of obvious and serious sins.  The witnesses and participants are being called into account as they should be.

Several brothers from the SB Assembly called me this past week to apologize because they said they didn't notice anything was wrong while Tom and I were in fellowship. (i.e., they were unaware of the physical abuse).   And my reply was gracious to them, because I suffered in silence while examining myself (as I was instructed to via Betty's counsel), and I did not specifically go to them with my complaints- they didn't know the dynamics in my home and did not witness what was going on.  I can honestly say that I have no hard feelings toward any of them personally.  

But, had they seen my bruises and confronted Tom, I am not confident that the outcome would have been positive for me or our marriage for the following reasons:

1.  I may have been blamed by the brothers and/or Tom for being a bad wife and deserving to be harshly disciplined.    It is one thing to disagree with your spouse about your relationship patterns; quite another thing to let the dirty laundry out of the closet and risk being ganged up on by people who spoke as God's authority over you and your family.

2.  The universal prescription for these types of personal problems was more Bible reading, shallow admonitions to just trust the Lord and to obey the advice of the leaders (no matter that some of them advising had unhealthy marriages and disfunctional situations themselves- or on the childrearing issues- they weren't even married and didn't even have their own kids! - But of course, they were authorities on the subject because they had been trained by George and Betty as their "surrogate children"), etc.

3.  "Brother, get your home in order or you can't be a doorkeeper... "  Throughout the years I heard leading brothers brag about how they had put their wives in their places, or they were condenscending when they spoke of the women, "Oh, you know, sisters are more emotional and more easily deceived.... remember Eve.  You've got to be strong and lay down the law."  and,

"Sister, you need to be completely obedient   Your resistance shows a rebellious spirit.  When you married, you gave up that right to  (fill in the blank)."

3.  The prohibition against seeing psychologists, psychiatrists and other mental health counselors outside the fellowship not only prevented common sense and legal rights from entering the picture, but the hurting couple was left to their own attempts to fix the problem (with the counsel of the leadership prescribing the solution).

4.  The code of silence makes it unsafe for both men and women to tell the truth.  All churches and organizations have this dilemma (it is human nature to avoid embarassment and to downplay our wrong actions), but the way people are confronted in the assembly made it especially hard to "come clean."  Would you be kicked out?  Publically ostracized?  Have privileges taken away?  Lose your chance to move up the leadership ladder?  Have to endure more lectures about how bad a Christian you were, how you weren't overcoming, how you weren't capable of making decisions for yourself, etc.?  And if you were a wife, would you have to do your "consequences" and your husbands if he told you to, even if he was in the wrong?  
No wonder both men and women were afraid to speak up;
the culture of the assembly propogated this insidious problem.

The issue of how far to get involved in one another's lives, especially when relationships seem to exhibit unhealthy symptoms, is a complex and difficult one.  We could start by "speaking the truth in love" and there are many other Bible verses that would give us wisdom and boundaries to follow.  

What is clear is that the leadership's practice of playing Holy Spirit in other's lives, is in direct opposition to the way Jesus exposed and treated sins.  If the only prayer and effort made on my behalf was to exhort me to conform to the "assembly's standard", I do not feel individually respected, "heard" or for that matter, loved.

One of the greatest opportunities we have through this website is to be reconciled to one another and to Christ.  It takes tremendous courage and humility to avoid the prescribing judgments so characteristic of Christian groups and give room for the real Holy Spirit to move, correct, and heal in the individual's life.

Amy Grant - Heart in Motion

Ask Me

I see her as a little girl hiding in her room
She takes another bath and she sprays her momma's perfume
To try and wipe away the scent he left behind
But it haunts her mind

You see she's just his little rag, nothing more than just a waif
And he's mopping up his need, she is tired and afraid
Maybe she'll find a way through these awful years to disappear

Ask me if I think there's a God up in the heaven
Where did He go in the middle of her shame?
Ask me if I think there's a God up in the heavens
I see no mercy and no one down here is naming names
Nobody's naming names

Now she's looking in the mirror at a lovely woman face
No more frightened little girl, like she's gone without a trace
Still she leaves the light burning in the hall
It's hard to sleep at all

Till she crawls up in her bed acting quiet as a mouse
Deep inside she's listening for a creaking in the house
But no one's left to harm her, she's finally safe and sound
There's a peace she has found

Ask her how she knows there's a God up in the heaven
Where did He go in the middle of her shame?
Ask her how she knows there's a God up in the heavens
She said His mercy is bringing her life again

She's coming to life again
He's in the middle of her pain
In the middle of her shame
Mercy brings life
He's in the middle
Mercy in the middle

Susan, Rachel, Others who have survived this and are gracious enough to come foward to tell their stories:

Thanks for your accounts.  I appreciate the honesty.

I, as a husband and a father, am sickened to death to hear of this kind of behavior.  It makes those of us men who actually try to to the best we can for and with our wives and children look bad, to put it mildly.

the quote from Mr. Malone that says "Statistics show that MOST women who get hit mouth off to men in ways that, if men did it to one another, they would realize it's going to come to blows." shows that he has little regard for women and how important they are in our lives.  I believe that God created each one of us in a wonderful way to fill a special place in his kingdom,  and if we really took the time to look and see the ways in which our spouses and children are "fearfully and wonderfully made", we might have less of the "superior" attitude that Mr. Malone seems to be so willing to spout off about.  Your attitude, Mr. Malone, warrents no respect in my book.

God has been wonderfully gracious to have put men in my life who, while I was growing up, modeled behavior towards their wives and children that was above reproach - first and formost that being my father, and I thank God for my parents who, to this day, show love and respect for each other, their children, and grandchildren.




Rachel, I totally agree with you.  I have to say that, although it seems that it happens less often, the opposite can also happen as well.  Please don't get me wrong - I'm not talking about a woman being just "mouthy" or "nagging" - I'm talking about the hitting, humiliation, slapping, hitting, cutting, etc., that so tipifys abuse.  Those of you that know me know that I will never condone any kind of abusive behavior at all, and, in fact, do my best, with God's help, to treat my wife and children with dignity, courtesy, and the utmost of respect - but I also have seen how the abuse described by Rachel but carried out by a woman can have a devestating effect on the man in the relationship, especially if he is trying to be the best husband and father God would want him to be.

Once again, those of you have shared, thanks for recofirming for me the way I never want to become towards my wife and kids and encouraging me to be a blessing to my family.  

Robb,

John Malone was on this BB for a couple of months at the beginning.  He demeaned, insulted and raged at just about everyone that would communicated with him.  

Thankfully, after it reached the point where no one would engage him in debate, he took his cookies and went home.

Thomas Maddux

Tom -

Thanks for the update.  I appreciate it, and apologize if I've said something out of line.  I'll keep more close watch on what happens to the best of my ability.

Robb,
     You've said nothing "out of line."  To the contrary, your contribution has been a blessing, and your continuation here will be most welcome.
In Christ,
al Hartman

Al-

Thanks for the vote of support.

Although I was unaware of John Malone's leaving when I posted my original message on this thread, the statement I posted still holds true.  Those who are abusive towards spouses, children, whomever in the way that has been described, and those who think along the lines that John did are lacking the basic respect that Jesus demonstrated to those women, children (and men) whom he encountered - like the Samaritan woman at the well, the children that Paul chided to get away from Jesus, etc, and so on.  

I could go on, as this subject is one that I am passionate about, being a man who does the best he can with his God given talents to care for and love my wife and children.  Yes, my wife and I have had heated arguments and times when we disagree.  But in the end, God gave me the privelege of having a beautiful and wonderful wife who loves me and whom I love, and three lovely boys who keep me young (and awake more often than I like!)  

Again to all, thanks for keeping me posted.

I thank God that I wasn't married in the Assembly.  Even so, my husband has had to work very hard to convince me I'm an equal.

One of the Huntington Beach brothers whose walk with the Lord was very vibrant and who I greatly admired (it was genuine, not the phoniness of the Assembly) married.  He was then convinced after a year in a leading brother's house that his wife was totally inferior to him.  When they first got married, he treated her kindly (according to what she told me) and in a relaxed manner.  After indoctrination and finding out I had married, he went so far as to send me "The Other Side of the Garden."  He was totally brainwashed.  He embraced these Assembly ideas as completely as he had once accepted Jesus.  I thought it was very sad.

I am SOOOOOO sorry your husband beat you.  What a church, if they teach husbands to beat their wives.  What a testimony, had to be the REAL house of God, right?

*sigh*

God bless,
Amy

I never saw abuse (I was single during my years in the Assembly) but I did see totally ridiculous things between married couples, things I even recognized AT THE TIME as weird.

A couple pulls up in their car.  The wife opens the door and says, "Honey, can I get out of the car?"   Mmmm -- I don't know, can you?  <sarcasm>

Another married woman explains this "funny" story about how she was in bed with her husband one night freezing because her husband wanted the window open.  A normal woman would have either overriden her husband and closed the window or, if she didn't want to do that, gotten an extra blanket so she wouldn't be so cold.  This woman did neither.  She just lay there, freezing, and "trusted the Lord" that all this was somehow His will.  Ha ha.

I heard a lot, a lot of married sisters talking about "trusting the Lord" for their husbands.  What they really meant is, he's an idiot and I am bravely putting up with him.  Me, I TALK to my husband and we tend to make decisions together.  Novel idea.

Again, you have my deepest sympathies.

God bless,
Amy

Rachel --

I asked Margaret Irons to pass on a website to your mother through you.  Did you get that okay?

Please let your mother know I am thinking about her even though I've never met her.  I grieve for the horrors she suffered.

I relate to this sentence very, very well.  In my case, a certain type of abuse happened and I doubted FOREVER that it was really abuse, because I pretty much thought it was my fault.  I exposed the abuse a month after it happened because I felt the person who did it would harm someone else.  I paid very dearly for it.  In the end, the Lord vindicated me.  But still, it plagued me.  Was I abused?  Was it my fault?

Very recently, about 10 years later, I realized that my abuser had admitted to me that he had abused me.  MY ABUSER THOUGHT IT WAS ABUSE.  Wow!  Can it get much clearer than that??? It took me TEN YEARS to see it.  

The victim mentality is strong.

Door of Hope by Jan Frank really helped me.  The only thing she recommends that I think is totally wrong is deliberately re-traumatizing yourself to get through the gunk.  I think you should let things come up when they are ready to.  Otherwise, good book!

This is for you, Susan.  And Judy.  And Rachel  With my deepest sympathies.  If you like the lyrics, it's on her "Little Earthquakes" CD.

God bless,
Amy



Tori Amos -- Silent All These Years

Excuse me but can I be you for awhile
My DOG won't bite if you sit real still
I got the Anti-Christ in the kitchen yellin' at me again
Yeah, I can hear that
Been saved again by the garbage truck
I got something to say you know but NOTHING comes
Yes, I know what you think of me
You never shut up
Yeah, I can hear that

Refrain
But what if I'm a mermaid
In these jeans of his with her name still on it
Hey, but I don't care 'cause sometimes
I said sometimes I hear my voice
And it's been HERE
Silent all these years.

So you found a girl who thinks really deep thoughts
What's so amazing about really deep thoughts
Boy, you best pray that I bleed real soon
How's that thought for you?
My scream got lost in a paper cup
You think there's a heaven
Where some screams have gone
I got 25 bucks and a cracker
Do you think it's enough to get us there
(Refrain)

Bridge
Years go by
Will I still be waiting
For somebody else to understand
Years go by
If I'm stripped of my beauty
And the orange clouds raining in my head
Years go by
Will I choke on my tears
'Til finally there is nothing left
One more casualty
You know we're too easy EASY easy easy

Well I love the way we communicate
Your eyes focus on my funny lip shape
Let's hear what you think of me now
But baby don't look up
The sky is falling
Your MOTHER shows up in a nasty dress
It's your turn now to stand where I stand
Everybody lookin' at you
Here take hold of my hand
Yeah, I can hear them
(Refrain)