AssemblyBoard

Wow, what a one side biased site.  All the accusations flying and very limited amount of people posting.

Hi Gues

Is that a French name? ;)

We know the traffic around here is really slow.  We have been up for over 2 months now, and we only have 211 members.  It is really pathetic. :'(

There aren't even 2000 posts! (oops, there are 3000, still, really sad.) :-[
Most days, we only have 15,000-17,000 or so page views.  Not too impressive.

All of us are biased, we can't help it.  We use our brains, and sometimes have our own thoughts.  Sadly, our thoughts are our own.  Corporate thinking is less biased, I suppose.

Please sign on, and help us out. :D

Brent

(Please, this was NOT biting sarcasm, but playful wittiness.  I did not sin with this post...)

Keep looking - you'll find some on the "other" side

Dear Guest2

I used to have a friend with the same name!  The family was named "Guest," and the kids were all 1, 2, 3, 4 and baby 5.  Are you the Guests from Kahala Hawaii?  If so, I am so glad to hear from you again!

If you will see what our French brother Gues posted below, you will see that there is no "other" side here.  We are one-sided and biased.  :-[

If you want the truth, call Betty or George.  I can give you their number, but they may not pick up the phone. ;) :-X

Brent

So, you agree that those who post here are biased. Interesting.  May I recommend to all of the users on this board to take a six week vacation from this web site and take a walk on the beach. Perhaps your mind will clear of this biased one sided perspective and find out that what you have been involved in for these many years indeed is what the Lord wants you to be involved in.!
Brent, I have read most of your stuff. It is very biased and leaves out a lot.

Hi Gues!

I have read most of your stuff too.  All two posts.

The reason my stuff is biased is because I wrote it.  Do you understand what bias is?

Your stuff is also biased, because you wrote it.  I left a lot out, because I didn't want to write an encyclopedia.

Why don't you write the parts I left out and share it with everyone?

BTW,  you are free to take Six Weeks off from this website!  
You are also free to stay on it and post.  We need more French brethren! ;)

The six weeks off was meant as a suggestion, (that's why I used the words challenge and suggestion in bold) and it was for people who have been totally immersed in the assembly.  It is good advice.

I look forward to reading your stuff.

Brent

Brent,

the French one would be Guest-taun (remember Beuty & the Beast?)

btw - what does this face :-X mean?

also - George & Betty who?

Gues,

It doesn't take a genious to figure out that you're still in the assembly.
For that I'm grateful - that it doesn't take a genious. It is understandable
that you don't take our position. We have already taken our "Six Weeks"
in one form or another. That's why we are out and sharing the truth w/
one another.

Sorry, but you're not the first guest to feel offended by visiting this site.

Hi #2!  ;D

This  :-X face means, "lips sealed, not talking."

George and Betty refer to George and Betty Olive Geftakys, formerly(or soon to be) of:

2007 Calle Serena
Fullerton, CA 92833 USA

Brent

Hello to the guests who choose to remain anonymous.

As one who was as defensive as any for 15  years (1982 to 1997) I understand your bias. Certainly there are differing perspectives - and opinions - but don't the facts remain the same? By the way if you are saying there are a lot of 'flying accusations', why not put them to bed with some facts of your own?  :D

...the 'lurking to posting' ratio appears to be about 5:1, which is a lot lower than the norm for internet bulletin boards. (It is usually about 150 or 200:1 pageviews/posts from my own experience.)

I'll go back to lurking.

Gues,
This sight has taken the mystery out of why people have left the assembly.  

By far the best part of this sight has been to find our old friends/roomates that we lost contact with.

Perhaps you can give a specific example of the bias that you see and fill in the part that has been left out.
Lori

Oh yeah,

ALOHA!

make that 'Beauty', not 'Beuty', I'm at a loss w/o spell checks

why did you write 'formerly' relative to the Geftakys residence?

Look up the word formerly and you will know why I wrote it.

It communicates the idea of something that used to be....

Words have meanings.  Ideas have consequences.

Brent

That wouldn't happen to be sarcasm I'm detecting is it, bro? ;D

Dear #2

Remember what "Pilau" means in Hawaiian?  ;)

With regard to Geftakys,  Kapu!

Mahalo

Brent

Or is the proper spelling:  "Betty and the Beast" ????

Dear Scott

No, it was not sarcasm.  He asked me why I used the word "formerly," and I answered him in a precise, direct manner.

The nature of some questions lead to answers that seem sarcastic, but in reality are not.  The nature of the question is more at fault in this case.

Here is an example:

"Why did George Keep the money secret?"

Answer, "Because he didn't want anyone to know what he did with it."

It is simple, direct, and unimpeachable logic.  It seems sarcastic, because it is a manner of speech that we are not accustomed to.  Simple, direct language is offensive to some people.  I am not trying to be humerous, I am responding to these people, using their names, and with dry, simple language.

It makes people chuckle, not because of the tone, but because of the content.

However, I am willing to be entreated.  If you sense that I am sinning, by going to far into sarcasm,  (a terrible sin) than I will repent, publicly, in front of all.

You can't go wrong with that policy.

Brent

Saying that this site is biased is simply stating the obvious.  George's seminars were biased too as it reflected a certain mindset and was a result of certain assumptions.  The advantage of this bulliten board format is that, unlike communication in the Assembly, one who disagrees has the opportunity to post as well as anyone else.  You have the opportunity to change the biase if you can present your facts.

For years, there had been talk of the "vast network of disgrunteled people who left" who were out there to pick off weak ones and steal them out of the Assembly.  But that is nonsense.  The truth is is that many of us who left discovered to our surprise that there were others who left for similar reasons.  We found a commonality in the fact that what we experienced was not isolated mistakes and misunderstandings but the result of a dysfunctional system that permiated everything George and Betty touched.

This site is not the rantings of a few who wanted to spin accusations against George Geftakys.  Rather, it is a collection of many people who independently experienced the SAME KIND OF WRONG at different times and at different places and now have a place where they can discuss it.

Feel free to add your thoughts.  I will respect your opinion if you really have something to say.

err uhh hmmmm

Pilau = evangelist

Kapu = small explosion

Mahalo = what some tink zgonna be on der hed in hebbin

how did I do?

Seriously -- I do have a sincere question and I'm hoping someone can answer it truthfully (someone still "in" the lodge)

Why are there very very few posts from people still remaining in the x-assemblies?

Sincerely, I'm curious.  Yes, on one hand it gives this website the impression of "bias".

On the other hand it gives the impression of an even now greater divide between "us" (those with the light and vision) and "them" (those who are settling for 2-nd class Chrisitianity outside of George's -- ooops, I mean God's -- work.

It APPEARS (to those of us on the outside) to be another unspoken rule.  Have the brothers instructed their wives to not reply?  Has their been instruction, whether spoken or indirect -- to stay out of the conversations?

WE KNOW YOU'RE READING !!!!   WHY DON'T YOU REPLY?????

I just find it curious how 'universal' it is for current members to be so quiet.

OK. Brent describes in several pages on Rick Ross' site about the meetings. Let us just look at the worship times.  He says that we have specific times that we meet and follow pretty much the same pattern in various assemblies throughout the US.
This is true, but what he leaves out is:
1) No one knows in advance (except the Lord)who will start the worship, any brother may lead the worship out (not just deacons or elders,)
2) No one knows in advance who will pray, what songs will be given during worship (sisters and brothers involved here)
3) No one knows in advance who will end the time of worship and partake of the Lord's Supper. Again, not necessarily deacons or elders do this either.
4) No one knows in advance who will share and what will be shared during the morning ministry.  

So in this, the Lord leads.  The meetings pretty much go like any Bible based gathering:
1) Worship
2)  Lord's Supper
3) Preaching the word

This is one example...don't have time to get into every page Brent has posted.

See,
Brent does it again.  The money was not secret. Tsk Tsk. Why don't you just ask the folks in Fullerton what exactly was done with the money, if it so important to you.  It is impeachable logic because you answer the question for the accused.

_______________________________________
The nature of some questions lead to answers that seem sarcastic, but in reality are not.  The nature of the question is more at fault in this case.

Here is an example:

"Why did George Keep the money secret?"

Answer, "Because he didn't want anyone to know what he did with it."

It is simple, direct, and unimpeachable logic.  It seems sarcastic, because it is a manner of speech that we are not accustomed to.  Simple, direct language is offensive to some people.  I am not trying to be humerous, I am responding to these people, using their names, and with dry, simple language.

Brent,

Actually, I don't think there is enough sarcasm on this board! Though I have been called to task a couple times for my share of it.

Scott

Dear #2

Pilau= sewage
Kapu=Keep out! (Or your face stay broke!)
Mahalo=the idea of thankfulness and acknowledging a service performed.

Example:  Here is you lau-lau sir.   "Mahalo."

#2, ey brah, no go making A on da website!
Brent

Um, yes we were told that the money was used for the work of the Lord, not that it was used to support a wife beater.  I guess that part was a secret then, but not any more.

Yes, we DO know who would pray in worship -- if the LBs and doorkeepers (deacons???) didn't pray they would get "spoken to" -- so it was obvious they would pray whether it was truly on their heart or not.

How many times would gg address the LB's publically for not praying in pre-prayer?  How often at seminars would the worship get rebuked for not being 'spiritual' as GEORGE thought it should be???  That wasn't the leading of the spirit -- it was the leading of George!!!!!

How many times would we get told we're "singing too many songs and not enough prayers"??  Is that spontenaity??

At one time in St Louis we actually kept records!!  (I know because it was my future-wife who was doing it).  Every prayer, every song was recorded in a notebood along with who led it out.  I'm curious now if that was a St Louis thing, or how universal that was ?????

Yes, that was the 'early days' -- but THAT is the mentality that has propigated down to a very controlled 'spontaneity'.

It's the way we think brother, it's the way we were trained.  It's the way the leaders (ie, the ones involved early -- the ones here that were hand-trained by David) are TRAINED to think.

Ey numba 2!

Try look!
In Fullerton, dey get NO accounting for money!  Dey get no idea whea George keep it, or whea it stay!

You ask dem?  Dey can't say.  ey Brah, you talk story, wit no facts.  

You making A big time wit da last post.

Brent

You are correct in that during worship there was a certain amount of freedom.  I could come and offer a hymn (out of my choice of hymnbooks) or offer a prayer or read a Psalm and I could do it any time that I had opportunity within the hour.

I could give ministry as 1st or 2nd brother (not 3rd).  And I do appreciate the fact that I could participate.

The problem in my opinion is that these freedoms were in the context of larger stringent rules.  If an Assembly in the midwest decided to, say, cancel the afternoon meeting in favor of a picnic or do chapter summary in small groups instead of in a larger group, you can be sure that if it got back to Fullerton, they would hear about it and be corrected.

Further, as it was stated by others, the freedom in worship had to line up with a series of unwritten rules as to who can preach when, who can finish last, etc.

I guess I don't understand, Gues, what you are taking exception with.  Is it that you feel that there is more freedom in the Assembly than people on this BB are giving credit for?  Are you saying that these rules are no longer utilized (I have been out for 12 years so things may have changed)?  How can you help me think more correctly about the situation?

Hey Brent.  Ask them and then post it, they will tell you.  Sure, they have no specific accounting, but they basically know where and who received what.

Anyway, Why don't you take six weeks off of this site, it may do you some good.

Gues, somebody's confused and I know it ain't me!

1) No one knows in advance (except the Lord)who will start the worship, any brother may lead the worship out (not just deacons or elders,)


In Fullerton, it was a leading brother 90+% of the time, mostly Steve or Mark if George wasn't there and when I was in HB as a leading brother if Earl didn't start the worship then certainly I did or John or Wes or Chris - all leading brothers and if someone else did then the LB meeting at the end of the incredibly long day was just another admonition. What you're saying sounds so lovely but it ain't true! Were you a worker?

2) No one knows in advance who will pray, what songs will be given during worship (sisters and brothers involved here)


True. But songs may be interrupted and were - I remember! Also if you search this sight you'll notice some corrective guidance that was given by Betty (the old crone) about a certain hymn and how it should be sung. It was never sung the "wrong" way again! And of course, there is always the axiom that George's super sensitivity to the leading of the Holy Spirit enabled him to stop a hymn and say, let's pray more and sing less or let's not sing that one just yet, sister or brother! Who's spirit was leading the worship?

Regarding the prayers, if you aren't a sister than you may not be aware of the "instruction" afforded to long-winded sisters. It was made all too evident where their place really was in the meetings - zip it!

3) No one knows in advance who will end the time of worship and partake of the Lord's Supper. Again, not necessarily deacons or elders do this either.


True. But if a sister were to do this - all H would break loose.  Also if anyone other than a LB ended the worship, the afore-mentioned LB meeting at the end of the incredibly long day would not be pretty - admonition, no exhortation may be more apt.

4) No one knows in advance who will share and what will be shared during the morning ministry.

Again a very lovely altruistic view. However, were you ever asked by George after pre-prayer, during the post-pre-prayer LB meeting or at the door keeper's meeting, "Are you exercised, brother?"  Like my daughter mentioned in one of her posts that she was and still can be shy because she was reserved about prarying out loud, I was deathly afraid of speaking in public (not unusual seeing that psychologists say that it's a greater fear than dying). Sorry,  not a choice brother. We want to see you get up more often, Tony!  Is that spiritual leading? I trow not!

BTW, this might be another topic but I'll throw you handfulls on purpose here! You know the LB meetings at the end of the incredibly long day?  We were told things in those meetings about people you wouldn't believe and told NOT to share with our wives!  Of course, this is just one of the directives I decided to disobey! Staying up late, regardless of the day or lateness of the hour and discussing many, many things with my wife has been my(our) salvation and it was discouraged by "This ministry".

Brent:

It sounds like some are beginning to squirm.  Don't worry, this is common when sin is exposed (people don't like having their sins brought to the light).  It is sort of like turning on the light in a room with cockroaches in it, they don’t like to be exposed and they immediately try to conceal themselves.
 
Thanks for not taking time off from the work you have done in exposing the truth being the Geftakys system, so that God's people could be delivered from bondage.  Thanks for being bold, and standing for what is right even in the voice of criticism.

1) No one knows in advance (except the Lord)who will start the worship, any brother may lead the worship out (not just deacons or elders,)
2) No one knows in advance who will pray, what songs will be given during worship (sisters and brothers involved here)
3) No one knows in advance who will end the time of worship and partake of the Lord's Supper. Again, not necessarily deacons or elders do this either.
4) No one knows in advance who will share and what will be shared during the morning ministry.  


Well, I don't know what it's like in too many other assemblies but I can share my perceptions of how things were done in my locality.
1) It was always a LB who stood up to start worship and almost always with a "call to worship" from the word.  It was usually the same two brothers praying at the beginning and leading out the "opening hymns"
2&3)This is partly true...but if some unenlightened brother or sister requested a hymn not found in the "worship" section of the hymnal it was put on hold or we read one verse etc...
And it was a very uncomfortable feeling.  Another aspect of this is,I can't tell you how many times I held back in worship to let the Spirit lead so that others (like my kids who are all baptized and able to participate) could enter in...only to have a LB(and in the 14 years I've been here it's ALWAYS been the LB's who start, stop and regulate the flow of every meeting) who couldn't tolerate a minutes silence or "lag" in the worship shut things down...to me this was not Spirit led worship...it was keeping to the timetable and schedule.
4)This is partly true too...but in my locality...again, it was hard for certain brothers to sit on their hands for a minute and not get up...so invariably for months on end the same two or three brothers would stand to speak...and often I would go away with the thought..."What did they say?"  

There are other things I could add but as it is I've probably said enough...and others have made similar points I would make,about the money...if you seriously think that GG and others could tell you where all the money has gone over the course of 30 years....then they have better memories than most 75 year olds I know...

Gues...who are you? and why do you sling accusations while hiding behind a pen-name???  Come into the light and join us in  open and honest communication...that leaves room for a difference of opinion.  I may not agree with what you say but I will defend your right to say it...for further details see the Constitution and Bill of Rights!

Dear Gues,
This is coming from someone still semi-in.  (meaning that we disassociated from the ministry at the end of Dec. and are doing things a whole lot differently, but still considering exactly what God wants for our family).  I had a HUGE post written about the liturgy that we have practiced.
I will just give a little here.

9:20  saints are seated, some reading their Bibles
9:30  worship starts with a brother giving a word on worship
Prayers and songs commence.  Perhaps the prayers and songs are spirit led, but I must say that I have seen people with written out prayers more than once.  {I'll put a little note in here addressing what Ken said....have you ever heard George stop worship because 1. Not enough sisters praying  2. singing is too fast or too slow or not loud enough  3.  George singing ahead of everyone else  ?  I have heard all of the above.  IMO this is not spirit led}  Anyway, worship goes until about 10:30 to which a brother says "Saints, may we all be seated?"
10:30 Lord's supper.  Brother gives a word on the Lord's supper usually ending with I Cor. 11.  Bread and cup passed with songs (There is a Fountain,  etc.)  
10:45  Next comes 10 min brother, 20 min brother, 40 min brother.  If someone is in town, they may take the whole time.  It is painful for us when a 10 min brother gets up for the 40 min slot.  And woe to the brother who does not land the plane by 12:00.

OK, now am I saying that this is a heinous crime?  NO.  I am just pointing out that we have severely lacked autonomy, and we have done just what we said that we didn't want to do which was to have religiosity instead of worship in spirit and truth.  There is nothing wrong with some structure, but for crying out loud it has been almost exactly like this for 30 years.  Where is the autonomy in that??

I know I'll probably take some heat for this post, but I know that Joe has also been preaching this tune of lack of autonomy for a long time now.  Anyway, for those of you who are still in and truly considering these things, I would hope that you would consider that we can't put God in a box like this!  Worshipping in spirit and truth can't be nailed down like this.  FREEDOM IN CHRIST is the tune we need to be singing!!

Andrea

Gues, my dear french friend:

If you think that anyone in Fullerton knows where the money is, then you are totally naive.  Also, if you think that they have the courage to actually let me post it, you are even totallier totally naive.

Most current assembly folk email me, telling me how the Lord has delivered them, and how the website was used of God, etc.  But then tell me not to post their email, or let anyone know they emailed me!!

There is no way anyone in Fullerton, who knows about the part of money that George let them know, would post on this site.  

WHERE ARE THEY!!  NO LEADER(EX) FROM FULLERTON IS ON THIS WEBSITE!!

You, Gues, if you are not just trying to play devil's advocate, are ripe material to continue to follow Geoge on the path to WACO.  I am not kidding.

Please, I implore you, do not take six weeks off from this website.

Brent

This is my last post. It is quit evident that this is not a discussion since minds are made up in one direction only.  Good luck in finding a perfect church with no issues or problems.  I am sure there many other groups that meet in simplicity.  But after a while, you will pick them to pieces also and when will the cycle end?

PS - Brent - take 6 weeks off of this site for your families sake, I have only been here one day, and have seen enough.  

I have every reason to believe that Gues is a young man. Reminds me of a little boy stomping off to his room when told he can't watch a TV program. The site (any BB) affords individuals the opportunity to express their opinion but when confronted in what they may deem an unreasonable majority opinion, easily escape into the opiate of their closed environment and fantasy world. I'm afraid Gues hasn't seen much of the truth of what has been aired here... yet.  Additionally, the French are not easily corrected by English speaking peoples. I wouldn't be surprised if he lives in Paris!

Dear Gues,

The questions I posed in my post are genuine and would I would listen to your answer.  If you don't like the BB format, feel free to e-mail me directly.

Dave Sable
outdeep@yahoo.com

Regarding "Gues"...

This board is open - and YES! - everyone has the right to exercise their freedom of speech and thought here.  

However, it also true that there is nothing wrong with many of us hoping that Gues will exercise his freedom to go somewhere else.

Nothing wrong with wrong opinions, however, uninfomed opinions are really tough to swallow.  This is one of the infinite applications of God's grace, I guess Gues.

God's grace to you Gues!

I would hope that in addition to your apparent bad-will and pejorative demeanor toward Brent and the people who post on this site, you will at a minimum be a man of your word and not post here again.

Many thanks for this assurance and your integrity for honoring your commitment!  

And, All the best to you!

Chuck Vanasse

This is exactly the kind of thing I am talking about. You say I am from France and the French aren't easily corrected by English speaking people.  How lame.  Now a new rumor will spread on this board based on your false assumption.

gues or guesnot,
What exactly did you not like about this thread besides the joking about who you are?

Here is the crux of the matter: There is very little fact on this board and a lot of opinion on what and what not should be done.  WOW startling revelation. People have wasted weeks on this site and found out rumors, whispers and etc...just like the previous person said about me.  Well, she is wrong.

I would encourage all of you ...just as Brent recommended, to take six weeks off....but I would add , six weeks off of this board.

Gues not,
You had given your opinion on what you thought about the Sunday morning worship time, and then I gave mine.  How is that a rumor?

I would encourage you to challenge those who are just putting up rumors and whisperings if you know the truth of the matter.  They want to know the truth!

Also,  why won't you put your name on here?

A

You want facts:

1 - My dad kept track of all the LT money in a red book in his desk drawer.  When at the end of the month he took the remaining money to Fullerton to give to his mother, he tore out the page and burned it.  

2 - Most Churches, you can walk into the Entrance  of the church and see pinned on a board an accounting of how much money came in, where it went, and what the budget was.  Most Churches are VERY CLEAR on how much money comes in and where the money goes.  That way anyone who can add and subtract can know if all the money is accounted for.

3 - Betty taught we should be faithful in the little things.  She also taught that money was a little thing.  So you would conclude they had been detailed in their faithfulness of the money and yet, no one can tell you were it went except generally. ie - to rental of a hall, paying the fulltime workers, etc.  But how much if any was left over after all that?  Do you know?

Anyone who knows, please send it to me.  I would love to see what has been done over the years.  

4 - They tracked in Fullerton what hymns were asked for and who prayed.  

What are the facts that you know or want to know, or are you just bugged that there are some out here that are no longer fooled and may burst the bubble the assembly has been exisiting in.

Why not put up a name?  Maybe "Gues Not" is a real name. ;D

But seriously, I have seen many sincere posters here with aliases who have brought real insight into the whole assembly situation. I guess that there could be many reasons for aliases.  Here's a few that I can think of.

1)  Perhaps "Gues Not" and others don't want to appear prideful by identifying themselves with providing us with valuable information such as"PS - Brent - take 6 weeks off of this site for your families sake, I have only been here one day, and have seen enough."
2) Perhaps "Gues Not" and others may have some great insight that if their true identity was known, would cause some of the victims identities to be made known against their desires (or perhaps some of the identities of the guilty as well)
3) Perhaps "Gues Not" and others don't want to make others feel bad who have some need to use an alias.
4)  Perhaps "Gues Not" and others really have the last name of Geftakys, or some other name in the Geftakys leadership structure.
5) Perhaps I don't have a clue what I am talking about.

Wow Gues

You have really changed my opinion of the French.  I always thought they were rude, but you are so compassionate in your brave use of an alias.

Keep it up.  It really helps many of us out to hear you explain things.

brent

Gues,

I apologize to you for the "French" comment. I apologize because you apparently were hurt by it and in the context of this conversation it was not appropriate.  I do not apologize for still believing it.

Everything else I said is right on the money. You can call it rumor if you like. You apparently have not spent 20 plus years "under the thumb" of a real autocrat and the indoctrinees (of which I was one) watching your every move. There is so much more all of us could share. After all decades of indoctrination provide us with a wealth of experiences. Some of it would be so redundant and hurtful to bring up it would not even compare with that "French" backhand. What is rumor about 2 or 3 witnesses (and there are more - I know) coming forward about the philanderer? What is rumor about very, very dear sisters pouring out their hearts in such eloquence and sensitivity regarding spousal and familial abuses? Please explain this to me!

Tony Garisek - not a sister, BTW

Hi Gues, I sent this to another person earlier, but thought that you might need to see it as well.  Like I told him, I mean not ill, but you still need to stop complaining about not getting your way in the wrong site.

This web site has a focus, it is a focus that you and others may not like, just like the car company does not like the problem website talking about it car(s).

Have respect for where you are at, what you read, and where you visit, especially if you do not have to go there (i.e.,  the old saying no one is putting a gun to your head).  You are grown enough to take accountablity for you actions, this web site deals with real issues, if you wish to not deal with it, then do not, but have respect and be grown enough to know where you are at.

Lord Bless,
George

BTW; being an African American, black, colored (whatever you want to call me this decade).  I would like to give another example of having respect/knowing where you are at on a web site.

If I go to a skin head site, I am going to not like it, but I am grown enough to know that I am now in their domain.  Maybe they are right, and all blacks, jews, etc. are second class citizens deserving of death, thank God they are wrong, but I still know where I am at, so I do the one thing I will always be able to do until I die PRAY for them.  PRAY FOR US Gues, that we may Grow in the Grace and knowledge or our Lord Jesus Christ.

G

Gues Not,

#6 on your post should read:

Perhaps people use an alias because they are fearful.

I am being serious here.

Who knows what evil lies in the hearts of men? - and don't say the shadow knows :)

Psalm 140:1
Rescue me, O LORD, from evil men;
protect me from men of violence

Psam 25:21
May integrity and uprightness protect me,
because my hope is in you.

I guess I should elaborate on the last post.

At times I have wanted to post under an alias.  I can see that this stemmed from some bondage I have struggled and currently struggle with.  This bondage is fear, and more specifically the "fear of man".  It manifests itself in the fear of rejection,fear of what people will think of me, and also longing for approval.  

I understand and must say that when I first registered, I felt like I didn't want to be known. My wife, dear lady, signed on as herself and helped me to quickly dispell any concerns. I was never outspoken, ever! Now, I find that rather than being afraid of saying something too sarcastic or possibly a little subjective I have decided to err on the side of outspokenness! Please forgive the sarcasm and/or subjectivity when it meanders into my posts!

Brent,
brah, i bus laugh at yo posts.  I tot you goin' say George one pilau buggah.  you too funny brah; dis coming from one katonk.

Randall

I was born in Hawaii, and spent my summers and Christmases there until I was twenty.

I was a Kahala boy, and a Waikiki yacht club brat.  Are you a local boy?

Brent

Wow, now this is quite a lovely page.  It started off on the wrong foot, though, with the whole "biased" comment.  Everything you say will be biased, unless you are some kind of computer.  But not too advanced, the HAL 9000 was kind of biased.  

But on to the important "thangs".  First of all, I like how this website promotes an open forum where anyone can pretty much say anything they want about the assembly.  But my, when one man(Gues) says a few things that he has seen in the assembly, a couple of people start tearing him apart, such as Garisek, who equaled him to a little boy stomping of to his room, into a world of fantasy and make-believe, while Brent said that this guy is on the "golden-brick road" to WACO.  And retread said that since Gues came up with a different idea to take six weeks off from the website instead, Gues was squirming because he was having his sin exposed, like cockroaches when the light is turned on.  That is all quite lovely.  You know, It must be easy to be in the majority and say cunning, slick things to a person who would like to remain anonymous.  But are you trying to win people, or humiliate them, or undermine them, or just enlighten them?  I fail to see the point where clever, little antidotes are used to totally mess up the point that some guy is trying to make.  Yes, I disagree with him on some things, but you know, he does make a few good points.  You know, everyone is quick to say "Ichabod" over the assemblies, and say that God left a long time ago.  That we should take the six week challenge(hopefully we'll find a different church to go to in that time) and get out as fast as you can.  Now Gues has come up with the idea that you should take six weeks off of the website.  Well, I think that if you plan to take six weeks out of the assembly, take six weeks out of the website, too.  Just take a step back totally and let God fill you.  Put everything aside for a little while and just ponder what God wants.  I, personally, am not going to stop either(unless God tells me otherwise).   Friends, Brothers and Sisters in Christ, don't make this a website where those with a different vision, get pummeled and made fun of.  We need more Dave Sables and Brad Mathias' who are willing to listen as well as speak out.  You know, this website is becoming more and more like a gladiator battle.  Sometimes one side has more warriors, sometimes the other.  But always, it is a war.  A humiliation battle, where one can only express the same views of those in power.  Does this remind you of something?  You are telling Gues to find another website to talk on.  And Chuck, you said something about there being "apparent bad-will" from Gues.  Oh, there's lots of that to go around.  This website is just loaded with it.  It reminds me of the Civil war.  Brother against brother, father against son, man against man.  Let the man speak!  He might bring up a point that you had no idea about!  I am just amazed at this poor example of Christian unity.  Yes, the assembly is a Godless place, that has been said hundreds of times already.  Yes, you need to take the six week challenge.  Everyone is praising it.  Yes, you need to get out of that place and never put another dime in the Lord's Treasury.  Many times.  Yes, every brother is guilty and we all want apoligizes because we were all wronged in some way or another.  Thousands more.  But a long comes Gues.  He spells his name different.  He doesn't register.  God forbid.  And he is chewed on and spit out.  He has a new idea that everyone should take a break from the website.  God forbid.  We have a system here, that cannot allow for other views.  WOW! De ja vu! (speaking of French).  Let us learn to show love and give people some room.  He did say some mean things about the people that run this assembly.  And you all gave it back to him ten times over.  Just lovely.  God must smile.  Feel free to disagree.  

A Brother in Christ and soon to be the next Gladiator victim,

Luke Robinson  :(

Speaking of $$$, in my last few months in the assembly I was very displeased by an expenditure of about $25,000 dollars of assembly funds for a member of the Geftakys family.  I told them so.  They didn't like it much but no one gave me an explanation at all.

I was just told that I was a bad boy for thinking that.

So, one day I decided to ask to see the "records".  I drove over to George's house, and went in.

I spoke to George a while, he was a little embarrassed because Paul Martin was there from St. Louis, installing a bay window in GG's living room while we were talking about how the money was handled.

I asked to see the financial records.  The answer was "Don't you trust us?"  "Our records are open to trustworthy men who have a reason to see them."  I wish I remembered what I said to him.

 Anyway, seems I was not a "trustworthy man".  After all, I had only been in fellowship for 18 years and in the leading brother's meeting since the day it started.  I guess I needed a little more time to prove myself.

A couple of months later I said sayonara.

God bless,
Thomas Maddux

Luke, you're reacting to a reaction...Don't become what you don't want to be.  When folks shoot from the hip they rarely hit the heart.  

This site has lots of problems.  Why? cause it's made up of people - hurting people, injured lambs...On balance the Grace exceeds the disgrace.  

Chill Buddy...Love and peace to you.

Chuck Vanasse

Hey Luke, while I do not agree with personal attacks toward Gues, I don't think it is wrong to rip Gues's "arguments" to shreds.  That is the beauty of an open forum, stupidity is likely to be pointed out.  I personally have experienced this in my own posts to a much lesser extent.  If you come onto this site spouting all kinds of ignorance and simple-mindedness, people are going to call you on it.  This is a healthy thing, if one is able to humble themselves and learn from it.  Also, I think it is worth noting that Gues is not prohibited in any way from defending his "arguments."  He is not a helpless victim of his fellow posters on this site.  It's just that some "arguments" are harder to defend than others. ;)  

Yes, Ben, but it all depends how you react.  He might have acted out of ignorance or stupidity, as you say, but how you speak to him has got to be pleasing to the Lord.  Have grace.  If he's wrong, through your kindness, you can bring him around.  Have your speech seasoned with grace.  But if you think this is a good idea, one day, you will screw up or say something stupid, and you will be humiliated.  Treat others as Christ treated you.  I know I haven't been doing this all the time, but Lord willing, I can start right now.

God Bless.  You can learn through kindness.

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson

I feel it IS the kind thing to attempt to show someone the folly of their "arguments."  Heck, isn't that one way the Holy Spirit works within us?  I don't, however, agree with personal attacks.

Ben, you and Luke are both right...Luke - "as iron sharpens iron" Ben - "A wise man makes knowledge acceptable."  

Hey, Luke!  You're a great Nephew! You punk!

Uncle Chuck

Uncle Chuck, that's the wrong Luke.  He's not your nephew, but I suppose he is your brother in Christ.

Ben, I was talking to you...

Yo Unk...Your Mom know you're still up?

Sorry, your brother Luke flashed through my mind...I meant you BEN.

Oh well, humility is good...Your Unk.

I remember one new brother asking why we did not follow the "New Testament Pattern" in handling the Lord's treasury?  The LB's told him it was none of his business.

Acts 6:1-6 The apostles would not touch the money, but appointed 7 men.

1 Corinthians 16: 1-4 Paul refused to touch the money, but asked the church to appoint ones to carry it.

2 Corinthians 8:19 One accompanied Paul to carry "riches of their liberality"
20  avoiding this: that anyone should blame us in this lavish gift which is administered by us——
21  providing honorable things, not only in the sight of the Lord, but also in the sight of men.

So, why we did not follow the "New Testament Pattern" in handling the Lord's treasury?

Brent,
No, not a local boy.  My dad is from Maui and my mom is from Oahu.  I am just a sansei born and reared in the Valley.

Randal

Hi Tom, great to hear from ya.  :D

Was there any idea what the $25k was for? Also since I've read that the money was usually handled by GG alone after being sent to Fullerton, why was it brought up as a topic?

Just curious.
Dale

Hi Dale

The money has been used for lots of things.  David Geftakys received fetal tissue implants in a diabetes experiment, to the tune of 40K plus a few years back...

Abortion is really good, because without it, David would not have been "almost cured from diabetes."  That last phrase is exactly what David explained to those who voiced concern.

Brent

Luke R,

Your post was sincere, but it reminded me of that famous quote,"Can we all just get along?"

Sometimes hard things must be said.  I wonder how Peter must have felt when Jesus spoke to him,"Get behind me Satan."

interestingly enough this thread in one day has become one of the most read, wonder why that is?  perhaps the thought of being biased on this site is a concern to all.

Gues, don't flatter yourself...Vanity is a dangerous thing.

This board is an open board, and someone who seems to be deliberately poking-others-in-the-eye is obtuse enough to draw attention.

Kind of like a roadside fender-bender...You're seeing a some rubber-necking.  So, don't flatter yourself

Hey, didn't you say you were done posting yesterday...what happened to that commitment?

Another thing, I think folks are just drawn to the fall-out of your meeting your just desserts.

Grace to you, Gues

Chuck Vanasse

Can't...stop...overwhelming...desire...to...state...obvious...

This is a BB.  

That means that people post their opinions and with that their bias.  It is the truth as the poster views things (got that insight from a good friend).  None of us have perfect knowledge and even if we did, we couldn't use it right anyways.  Most of the posters have no idea who you are and what your world view is, so they can't take that into account when you post (especially if you don't leave any clues as to who you are).

This BB was started by people who wanted to expose sin in the ministry started by GG.  (God has used it.)  Many (perhaps most) of the people that are posting here have been hurt in varying degrees by the sin.  They have a bone to pick and rightly so.  This is not an uncommon dynamic on a BB.  Another common dynamic is that this can be an 'out' for people.  A place where they can vent a bit.  I'm not saying that everyone is overstating things at all.  I am saying:

Don't take yourself to seriously.  
Check your pride at the door.
Read with a filter (this is a learned skill).  
Understand that your ideas maybe shot down.  (Even this one.)  
See how other people are viewing things.  
Have a bit of fun.
O yeah, and think before you post.

Welcome to the world of BB.

Signed,  
A member of the body of Christ who currently meets with Christians in an 'assembly'.

Hi Tim

You are absolutely correct.  Hey everyone!  What Tim said!

All of this is really quite insane.  
The real focus should be on trying to figure out what was wrong with us to allow us to get totally hoodwinked by GG, DG, BG and others.

Upon discovering this, we need to turn to Jesus Christ.

It all starts with Idolatry.  Here is my bias coming out again.

Everyone, take Tim's advice!

Brent

Saying this BB is biased is a rather biased point of view don't you think? I know I'm being biased by pointing out your biasness(?) but your bias is really quite biased and I just had to point that out.   --Joe

Joe, you are right!!  :o

That was a very biased statement that I made.  Thanks for pointing that out, I'll try to do it again.

Tim, Joe & Brent,  I'm gonna throw in my bias.  I'm glad for thie BB.  I'm really ashamed that I let myself be hoodwinked for sooooo long and didn't take a firmer stand for others who experienced horrific "consequences" under the guise of being God's will.  Give me a break for all of the times I've seen ones come and go only to be warned and cautioned about not being in God's will and etc. etc. etc.   Just had to add my 2cents   :o

Dear Luke,

Just to make sure that you understand what I am saying. I have no idea what sins Gues may have personally. I was referring to the obvious sins that have occurred under the structure of the assembly, and how this makes the members of the assembly uncomfortable and defensive.  I have absolutely no idea who Gues is (how could I?), or what his sins may be (how could I?), nor do I think that he is on the level of a cockroach (how could I?). My example of a cockroach was only illustrating how we sometimes react when sin is exposed (there is sometimes an immediate defensive response and this type of defensiveness can sometimes cloud our vision).  I used a cockroach in my example because it was the only creature that I could think of that has such a drastic reaction to light (after having being a recent witness to this - it is quite amazing to observe - especially with a whole room full of those cute little guys).

Anyway the whole point of the message was to let Brent know that just because people get defensive when dealing with him, that he shouldn't let this get to him, and that I didn't agree that he needed to take six weeks off from this web site.  Brent has both assembly experience, and post assembly experience.  Taking six weeks off from the assembly may open the eyes of some who are still there, but I don't see how Brent taking six weeks off this web site would help him gain any new perspective.  In my "opinion", I thought that the response that Gues had was very defensive, sort of a "you are asking me to take six weeks off, why don't you take six weeks off yourself".

I in no way want to discourage Gues from using this bulletin board.  At least Gues and others (this includes you Luke), are reading what is posted here (even if some of it may appear offensive), so even if six weeks are not taken off, I guess you are at least getting "another point of view". It would be great if even more assembly members would participate in this bulletin board as well.

Sometimes the truth is an ugly thing to face and we don't want to accept it.  I know that there are may in the assembly who are sincerely trying to follow the Lord.  I simply ask, that you don't just try to ignore the gross sins of the leadership, and how this has affected God's dear children.

One other point.  Whether or not it is easy to be in the majority is not the point.  What is the truth, is the point!  If for some reason you are concerned with not being in the majority, remember Brent's early attempts to get the assembly leadership to deal with the sin within the camp. He was not in the majority in that case, and they were the so called "leadership", but he made a stand.  God has honored this and it appears that at least one person in leadership (Danny E) in now on the right track (by the way this is a great thing that has happened with Danny).  We have a great God, and I am so encouraged over what he is doing with Danny, and the opportunity that he has to make things right (Danny: I have tears of joy flowing this very moment as I think of you. Danny: God is good!!)

And Gues (if you are still here), I am sorry if you think that I thought that you were a cockroach, or had any specific sin in your life that would place you on the same level as a cockroach.  Nothing could be further from the truth. I have absolutely no idea who you are, or what your sins may be. Zero. Zilch. End of story!

The way I look at it, we already have taken 20-30 YEARS away from this website (yes, I understand Al Gore hadn't even invented the internet 30 years ago)

But we have gone 30 years without listening to people who have left.  We have gone 30 years close-minded, listening only to those "inside" the circle, believing everything "outside" to be evil, devilish, carnal, 'less than' what we have, DANGEROUS.

We have gone 30 years slamming, tainting, damaging people who have left the circle.

We have gone 30 years with our EYES AND EARS AND MINDS SHUT to what's on the "outside"

We have gone 2 months giving people a chance to speak.

And what are we finding??  People have left AND STILL GROWN WITH GOD !!!!!

People aren't witches and warlocks.  They aren't evil, devious servants of satan, twisting and stealing God's sheep from his "little flocks".

Those that are still in the circle, it would do you good to listen to those that are out.  Surely, after all these years of deep profound teaching, you are able to listen open mindedly and think for yourselves, right?

We already have taken 30 years off from the website.  

What would it hurt for some of you to take the blinders off for even a week?????

Hi Dale,

The $25,000 was for a brand new Chevrolet Suburban FWD, tow package, all the bells and whistles.  I got the figure by calling the local chev. agency, describing the car, and asking what it was worth. So, they might have paid $23,500 or whatever.

The problem was that we were told it was for "Cornerstone".
It was at the Worker's Meeting in Fullerton and we were asked to go outside and "dedicate Cornerstone's new car".  

I remember thinking, "what's the fwd for, to take the kids to school through Orange County blizzards?"

I was around behind it looking at the receiver hitch when Tim G. came up.  I said, "It has a tow package."  He replied, "Yes, I want to do some towing."  

The lights went on.   I kicked up a small fuss with Steve Irons the next day.  My words, of course, were reported to headquarters.
I was "appropriately rebuked".  

The visit to GG took place a few months later.

Tom Maddux

Hi Tom, I do remember that Suburban, in particular the summer of 1990 on the Seattle summer team and travelling all over the Pacific Northwest in it.

If I remember correctly, the team spent more money on gas than on food. Rent was the third major expense. Of course we were to be 'self-sufficient', and I remember working long days in a laboratory (the project was a real dead-end one too) feeling so 'spiritual' that all my efforts and $ were going to the 'cause'. Looking back on it now, it's ironic how so much of that $ was simply burned up travelling all over for whatever reason. (I remember driving to some really far-off places for 'fellowships' and such. Tim really enjoyed driving around, it must run in the family or something. David G's midnight drives don't surprise me although here is the first time I've ever heard of that.)

I seem to remember that Tim had a 'folding kayak' of some sort where he actually didn't need to tow anything. Perhaps a boat on a trailer would appear to be too ostentatious, or maybe the Cornerstone driveway wasn't big enough to keep the trailer and boat out of public view.  ;)

(/sarcasm mode on)
I sure am glad we didn't lose any of those Cornerstone kids to those notorious Orange County blizzards. The brothers would really give a 'talking to' to Tim if he ever made such a big mistake!
(/sarcasm mode off)

Dale (who spends most of his money on a mortgage, then food, then gas....)

/sarcasm on/@

do single/married brothers in the assembly
know what a mortgage is ?

/sarcasm off/@