AssemblyBoard

It is my understanding that the saints in Nebraska have been hearing the following: the people who leave the assembly will not be able to stand in the persecution.
This is not only unscriptural, but it is propaganda and crowd control.  Dear people in Nebraska, read your bibles.  The assembly is not the only place where Christians stand, overcome, love God, believe in His word. Beware of leaders who subtly or blatantly tell you different. The pressure you feel should be from the Holy Spirit not from assembly leadership.

Some think or thought so, but in light of what's been happening, I think it is fairly obvious that he is just "company man".  What did he know about David and Judy? Nebraska saints, ask him. Then ask him again.

Simple reminder
   - get it from the mouth of 2 or 3 or more
   - don't take your news as fact from an anonymous source (including me!)
   - I would guess there's enuff intelligence in NE, that if that's being said, MANY will bolt (these aren't little children)
   - I would encourage any: inquire personally

Wow, if this is true, it is very scary. It appears that their leadership feels that they are backed into a corner, and may do anything to protect themselves.  The "anything" part is what I worry about.  Hopefully the saints in Nebraska are not so brainwashed into following a man, that they would see what is happening through the obvious actions of the leadership.  Look at what these men are saying, and look at what these men are doing, and ask yourself if you want to be followers of these "men".

Yup...."If this is true"....is the key to the rest of your opinion..better call the folks in NE to find out..,..oh but can't do that, anyone who still there is involved in a cover up!

The best advice on this thread is to get 2 or 3 witnesses.

Well, that has been my modus operandi for two years.  What follows is true:

This is exactly what is being said in Nebraska,  "The way we respond to this is the way we will respond in the great persecution."  This is a direct quote from  Mike Zach.

HOGWASH!  "This" is not persecution, but judgement!  George and his house are reaping what they have sown.  Sow to the flesh and reap corruption.  Simple.

"Mike, has any of this gone on in Omaha?"  "No it hasn't."  Zach turns to Sjogren, "Has it?" Sjogren shakes his head, "Nope."

Testa, "These are the last days, many are falling away."  (That's all of you)

David Koresh,  "The Lord told me we are all going to go out in a blaze of glory.  This is the end, the great persecution has come."

Dear Friends....Think for Yourselves!  Don't let these men, who are so wise they couldn't see what kind of man George was(or perhaps they could?) have any control over your lives!  Let Jesus Christ have the pre-eminece in everything!

Brent

Amen!  Think for Yourselves!  Let Jesus Christ have the pre-eminence in everything!  Trust Him for all things!

Regarding this statement below - what is the context?  What is the "this" in "The way we respond to this..."?

Is it the despicable evil that was hidden in our midst?  Or is it implying that this web site is completely evil & all postings on it are wrong?  To the first I say, "amen - purge out evil, distance yourself, stay pure, seek justice, etc."; but to the second I say: "no way!”  What’s happening today is not persecution; it is judgment.  But when persecution or judgment happens, should we run away from "bad men" or from "church"?  Obviously, bad men, false prophets, etc.

Does that make sense?  Not a Clinton-like what is "is".  But the statements can be interpreted 2 ways without the complete context.

I've spoken with Mike Zach.  He owes me nothing & I get nothing from him.  He is glad for the purifying & strengthening of believers.  He is also mad at the sin & distress (mild word) that’s been caused.  Please understand for MANY people, communicating on the web, not just viewing, goes very much against their grain & they can't do it.  I've shown older people how to use PCs & the web.  Some take right to it, others smile & say "thanks" & walk away.  That's not right or wrong, just different.  Not every one believes they can or should communicate this way.  Let 'em be.  Write or call 'em up instead.  

Keep on truckin' brethren!  He wins in the end!

Clarification! I am not the poster marked "guest".  My email is listed under my name as a member on this forum: mathewpa51@msn.com.  Thanks.

vernecarty,

why don't you quit slinging your misguided anger around?

if YOU are man enough, write him or call him & find out an explanation for yourself

1 Samuel 2:9
He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness

Mike Z and others, I am sure that there may be those here who would just as soon see you fade away into darkness.  There is so much in the leadership that appears to be hidden in darkness.  Where do you stand?

Why is the leadership so quiet?  Why don't they post on this BB to let us know where they stand. Mike Z, Tim G, Dan N, Roger G, and others, will anyone stop this hiding in darkness and come to the light. If you are on the Lord's side he will not forsake you.  Sure, you may get a real grilling by some here, but remember Job's words:

But he knoweth the way that I take: when he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold. (Job 23:10)

And you know what he had to go through, so what's a little grilling from those on this BB?

Now of course if your deeds are evil...

Don't hide in the darkness, and let bitterness brew.  Be open (these folks here sure are).

Amen, brother!

-

sorry

RE: Mike Zach

A few weeks after I had left the One True Church of Fullerton I got a call from my next door neighbor, Steve Irons.  Seems Mike Zach was at his house and wanted to talk to me.  I guess he couldn't find my house, it was at least 80 feet from Steve's door to mine.  But, I said OK and walked over.

Mike tried to convince me not to leave on the basis of my having said I believed  GG was a servant of God at a worker's seminar a few years earlier.   I said I didn't believe it any more.

Now here's what stands out in my memory.  When he decided to give up he said, "OK Tom".  We walked to the door and he said "Goodbye Tom".  Now to most people this wouldn't mean anything, but remember all the "spiritual" talk and cliches used in the assemblies.

I distinctly remember realizing, "He didn't say 'God bless you' because he doesn't want God to bless me, he wants God to hurt me."  

Well, God doesn't seem to have wanted to hurt me, because I think of my life as having a new entrance into blessing and joy the day I left the house of bondage.

God bless,
Thomas Maddux

would someone clarify things for me? i thought the Zach's (all of them) had left too. at least, tha's what i heard. do correct me if i'm wrong. thanks.

btw, our Lord WILL judge all. so keep your cool!

I find it interesting that for real, things are proceeding as usual.  I just found out that the teen conference is going on as scheduled with Roger Grant & Mike Zach at the helm.  What's with that???

Nancy,  dear friend of mine,  I welcome your 2 cents and I understand that it will be a great time of fellowship with each other.  My other 2 cents are that how can in such a brief time, 2 men who like the rest of us have had such influence and deception be fit to lead young people in a new way??  From what I've seen there has been more talk seen than response from several places.  It's going to take much time for the GG influence to be cleared away from people's minds and thoughts, esp. for those who'be been influenced for over the past 20 yrs.  Just my opinion and everyone is entitled to their own....Thank GOD !!  :)  

Nancy,

No your teens are not stupid.  However, they have grown up with the assembly indoctrination as their only reference point.  Like a child that grows up being beaten, they don't know any different.  They have no healthy situation with which to compare.  "Business as usual" is the comfortable place for your teen because it is what they have always known.  

All they have now is emotional response of fear of losing friends.  We all know that teens will do a lot to keep from losing friends.  Look at teens who use drugs or drink just because, "their friends are".  

To say you have faith that they are not being brainwashed is niave to say the least.  To say that you believe Mike Zach has been moved to real humility and repentance is also wishful thinking.  Here is a man who witnessed first hand what had been happening in my family's home.  Heard my mother's first hand account three years ago.  He promised help and then none came from him.  He was a full time worker.  I wonder how much his paycheck influenced his decision to remain silent, protected by the geographical distance of his Omaha location.  Also if he has truely repented, how come he has not written to my mother asking forgiveness like so many others who knew have done after being involved in her situation.  You are saying you are believing the best about him until you have hard proof.  Well you have hard proof of his involvement and no hard proof of his repentance.  Are you going to take the word of a man who has been complicit in the abandonement of an abused woman?  The lack of a letter of any sort to a woman who he counseled, promised help to and then did not follow through on that promise should be proof enough for any concerned parent to ask some serious and hard questions.  Also here are men who were in leadership and were totally fooled by a self proclaimed "Servant of God" who was living an immoral life.  If as a leader they cannot even see that, how can they be arrogant enough to believe they are still qualified to lead.  Why would they expect the sheep to trust them with their lambs, just because that was business as usual in the past?

Yes your kids need to be able to be honest with out fear of punishment.  Why would you trust that to happen with men who have been leaders in an organization that has supressed  honesty.  Yes, your kids need to have open and life changing comunication.  Maybe it could be with their parents, and as a family, to build the relationships that have been so strained by the assembly's training.  Maybe instead of spending the money on the T&T you could go for a weekend away as a family and enjoy connecting with each other and discussing your family's thoughts and struggles through this whole time.  I wonder why they haven't encouraged the families to do something like this instead of the T&T.  It would do the families well to have time to enjoy each other and decide as a family, with the teens imput, what they believe, and what they think God wants.  Instead the teens are sent off to be talked to about this by a suspect leadership?  Kind of like sex ed being taught in school instead of by the parents, in an open discussion.

I have been to the T&T as well as the TT and I know the emotional and social pressures brought to bear during those times.  It is a pump up time, emtionally to help the teens feel like they really are involved despite the realities they are faced with every day.

You are making excuses for Roger and Mike because it is hard to say to your teen, I don't trust those men and yet I continue to recognize them as leaders.  The truth is they are not worthy of your trust and yet you continue to give it.  And now you send off your impressionable teen to spend an intense couple of days being given the revised party line.  Really scary if you ask me.  

If I had teens old enough to go, I would not let them.

I think the bowling alley is a more healthy spiritual environment that a conference led my Mike Zach.

I am afraid that he might impart his "wizdom" on the youths.  Remember, Mike didn't know about George's character.  How come I did?  Do you want you teens coming to my house and being taught by me?? I at least figured out that George was a wicked man, and I didn't serve him when I found out.

You should send your teens somewhere else, or better yet, send Zach somewhere.

Brent

Hello Everyone

The website is not ending.  It will change of course.
Much of the posting right now will change, and we will all once again return to a more sane frame of mind.  The sad thing is that very many excellent posts get buried in flames.  It'll all work out.

In the mean time, what think you of this?

Dear Friends:

I would like to ask all of you to take 10 steps back from this whole thing, in your mind's eye.  Remove yourself from it, and pretend that a broken confused Christian, who is experiencing all of the events at the Assembly, but at another church, has come to you for counsel.  You can see that this person is sincere, but also confused and hurt.  As a strong, mature believer, who has advanced insight into the truth of God's word, you want this person to break free from any sort of bondage, and have joy and liberty in Christ.

This broken, confused brother has told you:

• The leader of his group is an adulterer and an immoral man
• All of the money is kept secret and is handled only by the immoral leader
• The leader's son is a wife beater and has his own, very dysfunctional life
• The leadership was all handpicked by the immoral, money loving leader
• Hundreds of former members of the group have identical stories about abuse and control
• 2 best-selling books and numerous articles by a Christian author called the group "Abusive"
• Every other Evangelical church in town counsels people to stay away from the group
• A national cult expert, and several leading Christian Cult awareness groups have called the group a cult, and former members have actually been de-programmed.
• There is a website about this dear confused brother's group, that has thousands of pages of testimonies that all point to the fact that something is seriously wrong

How would you counsel this person?

If this person turned out to be you, would you take your own counsel?

Take Six Weeks Off!

Brent

My name is Chuck Vanasse, my Father-In-Law is Chuck Miller father of Becky Cohen, Nancy Lehmkuhl, Patty Mathews, Chris Sjogren, Mike Miller as well as my wife Ann Vanasse and three other sons.

The little church in Omaha began in Chuck Miller's home and was merged or taken over by George Giftakys in the late '70s. Chuck Miller was severely sinned against by Mike Zach and Jim Hayman 25 years ago in dividing Chuck's family in two.  

One example for now...

Chuck Miller was told when he decided to leave the Assembly by Jim Hayman - "Chuck, if you leave the assembly you're leaving God."

Witnesses include my wife who was then 17 years-old and Chuck's wife Mary Ann Miller.

This and many other evil deeds need to be repented of immediately.

I call upon Mike Zach as well as Jim Hayman to repent of their evil deeds in the sight of God and men concerning Chuck Miller or your deeds will be published.

If anyone would like to locate witnesses to these two mens divisive deeds please write Chuck Miller chuckfmiller@hotmail.com

Chuck Vanasse

One of many witnesses to the evil deeds of Mike Zach and Jim Hayman in deeds of divisiveness toward Chuck Miller and his family.

"Dear Chuck & Mary Ann,  

This is ***** *****.It's seems like so long ago, during those early days in the assembly. A lot has happened since then, but I'll make a long story short. I moved to ****** and was married in **** in the assembly. In *****, my ******* and I left the assembly and were branded as deceivers. I always saw myself and others in the assembly as victims, not as willing participants in the sins of the assembly. Through the website that Brent Tr0ckman has started I have come to see my part in the wrongdoing that destroyed so many families, including yours. As I sat by and even cooperated with the Omaha leadership, your name and your home was being attacked. I didn't bother finding out the facts, I just took my stand against you while they split your familiy apart. For all of this I repent and ask your forgiveness. I know you have endured many years of pain because of all this. I only pray that now that things are really being brought into the open that your family will be restored. I have only fond memories of your love and graciousness and I thank you for your example to me as a young Christian.  

Trusting His Mercy, *****"

I implore Mike Zach and Jim Hayman by the Mercies of God to repent of their evil deeds against Chuck and Mary Ann Miller

If the point of the 6 weeks was to distance yourself from the assembly in every way possible to allow you to clear your head and help you see clearly from the less intense viewpoint of being *right there* and looking out, would it not also follow that this board should not be read?  It seems like it would be a hinderance to one's goal of seperation otherwise.  Just a thought

We are prepared to bring forth witnesses


If Jim Hayman and Mike Zach refuse to repent we are prepared to bring forth witnesses with respect to the specifity of times, parties and other particulars.  

Mike Zach and Jim Hayman by the fear of God and His infinite mercies will you repent?

Mike Zach has been complicit in the destruction of two families...



Mike Zach is a man that is not above reproach...

Rachel, I know this is a bit late-- I'm reading all of this a bit late, and am strangely drawn to it and every other bit of information i can get my hands on. anyway, just wanted to say, thank you so much for the post, it was right on in so many ways, esp enlight of the social pressures of the teen team and teen conference. I used to dread those things because of how uncool i was and because most of the spiritual stuff seems manufactured.
Also, big up Uncle chuck this is your nephew Nate! How are you?
                              peace,
                                  Nate

COLD WEATHER:  After the 30 degrees below zero weather, it warmed up to 4 above freezing.  Our phone lines froze and then someone stole the copper wires to sell.  So we have been without the internet off and on for three weeks.  If you wrote and haven't heard from us, maybe the message didn't go thru.  Please write again.  For those who sent money to buy food, wood, and warm clothing and are sending material help....."thank you" seems so inadequate.  If you were here, these poor people would kiss your hand. (that is a custom here in Romania) with tears of joy and gratitude.  
 
The weather has turned really cold again.  When you go to bed tonight and every night, thank God for giving you warmth and.  pray for those that have none.  Eat every meal and every bite with thanksgiving and pray for those who have none or little.  Give every person you meet a smile - and pray for those who have no reason to smile.  Give God praise for every flower and every beautiful thing - and pray for those who cannot see.  Lift up praises for singing and beautiful music - and pray for those who cannot hear.  Read your Bible daily with joy in your heart - and pray for those who have no Bible or joy in their hearts.  Thank God you can worship in peace - and pray for those who cannot.  When you turn on the water - thank God for every drop - and pray for those who have none.  When you walk freely in the sunshine - pray for those who have no freedom and haven't seen daylight in years.  Pray for those who cannot walk.  Thank God for your children - and pray for those who have no parents.  Thank God for your salvation and reconcilliation to Him and humanity - and pray for those who have never heard this Good News.  Psalm 107 "O give thanks unto the Lord, for He is good, for His mercy endureth for ever.  Let the redeemed of the Lord say so whom He hath redeemed from the hand of the enemy."
 
Your rewards will be great for helping the poor and outcasts of society.  And that number is growing by leaps and bounds in most of the world.  Surely we are in the last days when the God of Peace will descend and bring His peace and prosperity to the world.  
 
THE ANGELS PRAYER:  Luke 2:14   "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth, peace, good will toward men."  Pray for peace.
 
A GREAT TRAGEDY IN ROMANIA:  
 
How many Romanian children will not live through the year 2003 because of what was discussed in the article below::  "Poor nutrition compounded by other problems burden pupils in Romanian schools with a broad range of signs and symptoms: dizziness, headaches and abdominal aches, vomiting and not once, prolonged fainting....lack of proper and emergency medical care, etc,etc,etc."

The article appeared in "Nine O'Clock"
(http://www.nineoclock.ro/index.php?show=politics&issue=2846&id=20030129-212227)

There are 3 stages of starvation......these kids are in the first stage.  Two children died in their classrooms last week. This is a national crisis. Romania used to be the "Little Paris of Europe" and the "Breadbasket of Europe" and now, their society is crumbling.
 

THE POINT IS THIS:   It is difficult for someone to respond to an invitation to Christ if they have an empty belly and not enough clothing to stay warm and no proper place to live....and we do.  It is difficult to share the gospel with someone who sees that the person who speaks of our loving God has their needs met.....and ignores their suffering.  James says it is of no profit to have faith without works.  James 2:15-17 "If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?  Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."  We are not saved by works, but we earn the right to speak to another if we show we care about them. They will then listen. God cares through us.  The gifts you send here and elsewhere for the poor are an invitation to accept God's greatest gift - His only begotten Son.  Pray that God will make us more willing workers together.
 
With MUCH love,    Ron and Sue   inasmuch@fx.ro   www.inasmuch.ro
 
Address:  Ron Bates,  C.P.  53--55,  Bucharest 4, Romania  tel:  313-5465 or 456-3224

Where's this post from Nancy Bellinger?  I can't seem to find it.  

Also, I have something to say about the social pressures felt at the T&T and TT.  Why and how did you feel these social pressures?  Why, Nate, did you feel 'uncool'?  It's my understanding that with *any* large group of people (especially teenagers) there are natural social pressures to fit in and find a suitable clique.


david

hey, that last post was actually from me rather than my brother, sorry for the confusion.  I was accidently logged in under his name.


david

Mike Zach has been complicit in the destruction of two families...

Below please note two of the many witnesses to the evil deeds of Mike Zach in deeds of faithlessness and deeds of divisiveness.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
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Quote from: Rachel on February 01, 2003, 06:37:37 PM
   

"Mike Zach is a man who witnessed first hand what had been happening in my family's home.  He heard my mother's first hand account three years ago.  He promised help and then none came from him...a man who has been complicit in the abandonement of an abused woman"


--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
February 02, 2003, 08:28:36 PM    

"Dear Chuck & Mary Ann,  

This is ***** *****.It's seems like so long ago, during those early days in the assembly. A lot has happened since then, but I'll make a long story short. I moved to ****** and was married in **** in the assembly. In *****, my ******* and I left the assembly and were branded as deceivers. I always saw myself and others in the assembly as victims, not as willing participants in the sins of the assembly. Through the website that Brent Tr0ckman has started I have come to see my part in the wrongdoing that destroyed so many families, including yours. As I sat by and even cooperated with the Omaha leadership, your name and your home was being attacked. I didn't bother finding out the facts, I just took my stand against you while they split your familiy apart. For all of this I repent and ask your forgiveness. I know you have endured many years of pain because of all this. I only pray that now that things are really being brought into the open that your family will be restored. I have only fond memories of your love and graciousness and I thank you for your example to me as a young Christian.  

Trusting His Mercy, *****"
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
 

Mike Zach is a man that is not above reproach...Protect your families from this destructive man.

I implore Mike Zach by the Mercies of God to repent of his evil deeds against Chuck & Mary Ann Miller in 1978 and to repent of evil deeds against Judy Geftakys in 1999-2000.

My name is Chuck Vanasse, my Father-In-Law is Chuck Miller father of Becky Cohen, Nancy Lehmkuhl, Patty Mathews, Chris Sjogren, Mike Miller as well as my wife Ann Vanasse and three other sons.

The little church in Omaha began in Chuck Miller's home and was taken over by George Giftakys with the help of Mike Zach and Jim Hayman in the late '70s.

Chuck Miller was severely sinned against by Mike Zach and Jim Hayman 25 years ago in dividing Chuck's family in two.  

An example...

Chuck Miller was told when he decided to leave the Assembly by Jim Hayman - "Chuck, if you leave the assembly you're leaving God."

Witnesses include my wife who was then 17 years-old and Chuck's wife Mary Ann Miller.

This and many other evil deeds need to be repented of immediately.

I call upon Mike Zach as well as Jim Hayman to repent of their evil deeds in the sight of God and men concerning Chuck and Mary Ann Miller or your deeds will continue to be published.

If anyone would like to participate as witnesses against these two mens' destructive deeds please write me - Chuck Vanasse chuck@vanant.com.  

Mike Zach is not a man that is above reproach

I call upon Mike Zach to step down from leadership effective immediately.

Another thing, in the Christian life, we're not called to be "cool".  I sometimes have felt left out of the "popular group", but sometimes I have been in the "popular group" and I know I have left other people out.  And that is definitely wrong.  But God has grace, and I hope that he keeps illuminating me on who I might have hurt over the years, and I want to get things right.

And furthermore, I don't think there should be "cliques" at all in the house of God.  We should all be friends and if we are being cruel to others, we should repent.  

Luke Robinson

Luke,
I agree with you. Unfortunately, cliques have been a very real part of the Teen Team and Teen Conference, just as they are "in the world". I saw it first hand at many a Teen Conference. There were the "in" group tables and the other kind :-[ You could see it on the faces of the kids who were left out that it was a very difficult thing. Indeed, if you were in any way different from the more popular assembly teens, you felt it painfully. In talking to teens who have attended both activites, I would say that the teens in the assembly were often no different than their peers "in the world" except for a lot of bible talk and knowledge. Does that mean that many of the teens were not sincerely seeking God. No. They were often just acting their age. What has distressed me the most over the years though, is the prideful attitude in the teens - something they, no doubt, got from their elders, me included. Enough for now.
Take care, Luke.
Pat

i think dave needs a clarification on the word "clique".  It means snobbishly exclusive, and that's not what dave was trying to get at.  (i was watching him post).  I think what he meant by clique was simply a group of people with similar interests, that is not purposely exclusive.  

jim

I don't know why this is being talked about in the Nebraska thread... well, ok, I guess I do - but I was wondering how many teens who are reading this website think that the teen team and T&T conferences were some of the best times of your life.  And I'm talking about learning and fellowship both.
They were for me.
Joseph R

*raised hand* right here!

another raised hand - and I was a teacher!

Guest,
There are probably a lot of raised hands, teens and teachers both.  I enjoyed the teacher part of the conference very much. Roger was a skillful teacher and I learned a lot. My experience or yours, though, does not change the fact that there were those, (I saw them and knew some of them), who looked or were truly miserable. They were most definitely left out of the loop by their fellow Christian peers because they were different - whether it was their looks, their way of thinking, where they were at spiritually, emotionally, whatever...As in any group of teens there was peer pressure and those who didn't conform (ie. didn't like to play volleyball, silly as that is) suffered, some more than others. So, while I am glad for all of you who have wonderful memories, just be aware that there are those who do not.
Pat

Thanks for your insight, Pat.  You are very much on the mark.  This, as I see it is pretty much an extension of the assemblies as a whole.  Generally, workers/leadership are the "ins" (overcomers) and everyone else the "outs" (carnal).  For the most part, the teen/young adult posters who have, by-and-large, been defending "the good'ol days", are the "ins".  The outs are pretty much, well, out.  Could be that the latter decided they were not to going to put up w/the abuse/rejection and the former have never really had to face it.

During the 17 years I was in the Assembly I had the best times of my life, as it was then.

Now, being out, I have had some best times of my life.  No matter where you are, you are there!  If all you know is T&T and TT, then they will be the best times of your life, unless you didn't like them.  None of this proves anything.

The real question is, "What is the value/danger of being under the ministry?"

Here is another one, Does a little leaven really leaven the whole lump, or was Paul just using hyperbole?

The concern I have with people going to the T&T conference is valid.  Who is teaching it and what is their motivation?  It seems to me, with the house on fire, that leaders should be paying much more attention to the very sober issues at hand, than indoctrinating kids.  Of course, there may be another reason for doing the T&T as well.

Brent

thanks for the clarification, james.  yea, i meant groups rather than exclusive cliques.  but anywho, i'm still wondering where the post from nancy bellinger went.  was it deleted?  


david
ps.  If you ever find a *teenage* christian conference or summer "team" without cliques or 'popular groups' let me know.  

Dear John

As you mention above, there is an even more sly and dangerous "George" out there.  Lives in your neck of the woods I believe.

Brent

To Joseph Reisinger I would have to respond with a  resounding chorus of definitely no. The Teen Conf. was a a mostly miserable experience of feeling left out. The spiritual teaching that went on their for the teens was of the: you are not perfect enough self is still on the  throne variety. It is a rotten and damaging theology.
One thing I remember too, is how I wasn't good at sports. Since this was the only sanctioned social activity by the assembly (the irony is that we were competing with each other, while talking about self not being on the throne. Yeah, sure.) I was left on the margins where I mostly read thick books which made people think I was wierd.
Whew! some repressed memories coming up there!!!
     
                                    Nate

No, the variety of teaching that went on was the importance of a Christ centered life.  As for sports, I too am not athletic but at least i made the effort to have a good time.  These times are included in the best times of my life.

Also,
 
 hello to Paul Robinson, Dave Haan, Jim Haan, Joseph, my mom, my bro   Ben, and my bro Luke. Also to tim souther for some insightful posting.

             Paul,
 
              when you say christians are not called to be "cool" or shouldn't be mean to each other, I wholeheartedly agree. but Christians are not "called" to  play sports. they are not called to do a lot of things. but the sad reality of the social situation was, as Tim souther put it: you were in or out. I expect thats why your brother steven left, Tim, because people persecuted him into the ground for being wierd. (Tim, if you see your brother please ask for his forgiveness from me. i perpetuated this warped social system too)  
Another thing, which I may have already  talked about in other posts: friendship between men and women who were AKs. I would submit that  this is probably one of the top five "taboos if you were an AK. Does anyone else have input into other taboos. Actually I should be posting this on the AK BB, but oh well.
                                                       Nate

Nate, Steve is Tim's first son.

Dave, what is your point?  That because its common for teens (Christian or no) to be cliquish, that makes it right? ??? ??? ???

I think he meant it to point out that the cliquish behavior found at the assembly's Teen functions are not exclusively in place there, not to make any statement as to the virtue of such phenomena.

I had both the best times of my life and the worst times of my life while on trips with the assembly (teen teacher conference, teen team, nebraska canoe trips, camp, etc)

did the good outweigh the bad? probably not. I was miserable at camp up until this past year, and over teen team, i did find it cliquish. i dont know about the guys in the assembly, but the girls are VERY cliquish. and i was the kid everyone made fun of at camp and stuff, because i was different. I hated going to camp. i had some fun, true. and i made some friends. but i was put through alot of ridicule,  because i wasnt pretty, funny, or "cool" enough.

one year, a group of girls made fun of me the entire week of camp. my own best friend didnt stick up for me, and the only person who went out to me at all was Danielle Starr. She was the most awesome counselor I have EVER had and if anything could outweigh the agony i went through, it would be meeting her. There were 2 other good things that have happened at Camp though: the year after that year, one of the girls came back at the end of the week and apologized in tears for treating me so badly. we've been good friends since. and the year before this year, another girl came back and apologized for basically everything. we've been friends since as well.

One of the reasons why I've had a hard time with teen team, camp, and the conferences is that I've always been ridiculed for being different no matter where i was. And as a kid i felt like..."these are christians, don't christians love each other and treat each other better then this?" and i've realized since that many of the people who had treated me badly didnt have a real walk with the Lord. that doesnt make it hurt less but understanding is the first step towards healing. I became very depressed because of how i was treated by people, not just those in the assembly. but depression is a choice. And i don't blame my depression on the people who treated me badly, but they sure didn't help much.

I had a hard time on teen team, partially because im anti-social, partially because i found it to be cliquish, and partially because of my house. but i am glad i went, it was a good experience. and mammoth was really pretty. plus, i got alot of time to work on my sketching. and even though i havent stayed in touch very well, i made alot of friends and met alot of people i would have NEVER had a chance at meeting if i hadnt gone.

Brent,
I wouldn't call the teens that still fellowship in the assemblies "kids".  I think, if anyone is attuned to the winds of change, it is them.  
I would not be so worried about "indoctrinating kids" at the T&T conf.  I think you will find many who will be rather asking questions and standing for fellow teenagers.  When was the last time you were at a T&T conf here in the midwest?  Do you know many of the teens out here?
I, for one, have decided to go to the conference.  There are several reasons why I will go.
 
1.  God has spoken to me very powerfully through a discussion on "The seven laws of the teacher"  which I find very useful, and all about grace. (this is in the teachers section) I believe God will speak there, contrary to what you may believe.
2.  I have many friends who I wish to stand with, and encourage, and discuss these (current events) things with - considering what God wants to do.
3.  I always have fun.  While I have not been camps, retreats, etc. hosted by other christian groups (I will though, I'm sure.)  I do know the experiences I have had - and it has always been worth it.
4.  I want to see what things are taught to the teens - and if, as you would imply, this would be a brainwashing time - or rather, the teens will be encouraged to seek God's will for themselves - and live by his grace.

So.. that's where I'm coming from.  I hope you see that it is an expression of my liberty in Christ that I can go to this conference - and walk before the Lord.

Your brother in Christ,
Joseph Reisinger

Nate,
I'm sorry to hear your experience - not that you weren't good at sports - because as you have said, God doesn't call us to be good at them; but rather, that you felt left out or even looked down upon.  I think I was probably insensitive to such feelings because I personally love sports so much.  I do have one question though...


It seemed this was said in jest, but it made me wonder if you consider competitive sports to be wrong?
Anyway, I was wondering what you think about the whole issue of "self on the throne/ Christ on the throne" - do you believe that there is no such thing?  Or rather that there was just too much emphasis on it?
Your brother in Christ,
Joseph Reisinger

Dear Joseph

I have never been to an Assembly T&T.  I have been to numerous campus conferences, etc.  I have also been to many non-assembly teen functions.  

I do know this, teenagers are easily influenced.  Peer pressure, hero worship, pretty much everyone can influence them, with the possible exception of their own parents!

What I am going to say, next, is quite radical, but at the same time sober and serious:

The spirit behind the Geftakys ministry is not wholesome, but dangerous.

I think it is totally unwise to send adults or teenagers away for a retreat, led by a man who has been literally bought and paid for by Geftakys.  It just isn't a good idea.

Brent

Dear Joseph,

   No, I do not believe there is a clear moral imperative for or against sports. I am simply pointing out an irony that competitive sports (at least in  the assembly context where they had social value) were vehicles for self-fulfillment apart from God. I do have major problems with the self on the throne/Christ on the throne model, as it has led to some pretty major blocks in my spiritual life. The interesting thing is that we are taught at those times to prostrate self, to deny self, to supress self, to purge self...and yet we play sports in which "self" and "self" expression played a major if not primary role.

                                                   in love and struggle,
                                                            Nate

Nate,
thanks - that helps.

Brent,
I think you might be making a few assumptions - at least by my reckoning.
1.  all assemblies are similar - you said that you had been to several campus conferences and teen functions, etc.  I am taking this to mean that you had been to many on the west coast... (which I myself haven't been to - and therefore have no ground to comment on them)  All I know is what I see here in the midwest and what I have seen on teen teams in Cali.  We would all do well to speak of what we know.


2.  You assume that the spirit behind the geftakys ministry is the same spirit behind the current assemblies or gatherings... (if you assume different, you don't seem to make that distiction)  I agree, by the way, that the Geftakys ministry is dangerous.. that's why I don't want to be involved with it anymore - That does not change the fact that I want to be involved with the people here in Forest Park, and all those that attend the T&T conf... etc.  I don't believe it is the same thing.

3.  You assume that adults and teens are being "sent" to this conf.  when in reality, I believe most are going there because they want to... there is a difference.

4.  You assume that Mike was "literally bought and paid for by Geftakys"  I think in order to assume such.. there would need to be more evidence than that which has been presented.

That being said.. I appreciate your concern.. and if I see any of this dangerous Geftakys ministry running around.. I will be sure to stand against it.
Your brother in Christ,
Joseph Reisinger

AMEN!

Dear Joseph

I visited 12 Assemblies.  They were all totally similiar.
The assumptions I made were based on what I saw.  I am biased. (so is everyone else)

If what I say is untrue, I always correct it.  However, the vast majority of the things I have written have rung true for many, many people.  I don't claim that I see everything, how could I?

I do see something, and have spoken up about it, as I am commanded to do by The Lord Jesus.  The results of obeying Him speak for themselves.


Yes I most definitely do assume that the unwholesome, demonic spirit of George Geftakys still lingers in the Assemblies.  Some have gone to greater lengths than others to purge out the old leaven, but thirty years of deceit doesn't go away overnight.

Dear Joseph,  please don't give the demons a clean and swept house.  I am being totally serious.  Purge out the old leaven. New wine goes in new wineskins!

As to children/teens going to a conference, your parents are allowing you to go.  You could not go if your folks didn't want you to. You are being "sent."  I think it's a bad idea.  You are free to disagree.

Brent

Brent,
which ones.. this might help me have a clearer perspective.. and how were they the same?
thanks,
Joseph

I would like to add another request to this: what years?

OK Gentleman!  Now we're talking!

I have visited the following Assemblies:

SLO
San Francisco
Sacramento
Fullerton
Placentia
Santa Barbara
Hastings
Lincoln
Champaign
Annondale
Providence
Spokane

The ones in bold were places I stayed for some time. I lived there, put up posters, preached, prayed, cooked and other things.  I am quite familiar with the places in bold, and I think they are a fair sampling of the ministry.  The years for most were between 1994 and 2000, although I was first in the Assembly in the summer of 1983.

What was similar in all these gatherings was:
manner of speech, books, themes in ministry, style of prayer, dress code, chair set up, liturgy and times meetings stopped and started, the fact that each one of them read the same letter from Bro. George, prayer requests, training homes, single sisters, Lord's supper, Lord's treasury (always cash, no accounting), childtraining,
cohesiveness with other assemblies, smallness and exclusive nature of the group, all followed the same few leaders, (Geftakys's, Zach, Hayman, Notti, Edwards,)

and so on and so on.

The different assemblies were absolute clones of eachother, with the following exceptions.

In Providence, everyone in fellowship was a leading brother and worker, except one sister, Yvonne, who was neither.  That was different, everything else was the same.

In the midwest, the saints knew way WAY more about BBQ and food for fellowships.  The hospitality at the Matthews' house in Champaign was really great.

The further away from Cali, the more the Assemblies were "substandard" according to the "vision" communicated by George and Tim.  The exception to this was Omaha, which seemed to be doing real good (according to Geftakys ideas)

I only spent one night in Omaha, but got to know several saints from there very well.

The most striking difference I have noticed over the years, is that in SLO we were taught that getting a mortgage was sin, and that in every other place, except San Francisco, it was OK.  I have not made a big deal about this, or even mentioned it in any of my writings.

The long list of similarities, in my opinion, in unassailable.  However, I will quickly correct any mistakes, but you must convince me!

Brent

Thanks, Brent,

   Always knew we made a mean BBQ here in Champaign....I tell ya its the wood out here!  Seriously, I remember the team visit here and it is a positive memory among many, in spite of the horrendous events of late. Y'all come out here, we'll show y'all our secret BBQ formula!
Wayne and Pat

Dear Wayne

Be advised, Suzie is reading over my shoulder, and she really loves the Midwest.  You are putting yourself at risk for a Tr0ckman visit.  ;D

Wayne, was I accurate in my description of Midwest hospitality?  Do I need to correct anything?  I did not want to insinuate that the Midwest saints were better at BBQ than the East coast, or West coast if it isn't true.

Please help me out, I want to be accurate in everything I post here.   :D

Brent

Brent and Suzie,
Wasn't it raining cats and dogs that evening? All I can remember is the steamy, rainy weather.  Visit in the Fall, it is beautiful.
Pat

                             

                                     "The assembly way of doing things"...


George took over the little church in Omaha where several families and singles had been meeting in the Miller home.  Chuck Miller said the first tip he had that George-the-Fraud-Monster was a wolf was that George-the-Fraud-Monster said that their little gathering should "stop breaking bread" until he arrived and "showed them how."

So, I guess the Monster showed all the assemblies how, right?

What a tragedy! ...Chuck Miller was a faithful witness in 1978, but he was opposed by Zach and by Hayman.  Both men were being led into idolatry by the terrible Fraud-Monster Geftakys.

So, Fraud-Monster spread idolatry throughout the land.

Brent,
I'm Wayne's son and I was wondering if you stayed with us when we had meetings in our house or when we lived in the brick house. And I must admit that we here in the Midwest just have BBQ skills. It's a Midwest Thang.

Chuck,  How was it that the some of the Miller progeny got whisked away to Fullerton shortly after the debacle that you described?  Was the evil so dominate as to turn children against their own parents?

Yes.

I've heard much about this supposed Midwest BBQ skill.  Hard for a die-hard West Coast BBQ artist to believe.  So far, most Midwest BBQ chef's I've talked to shamefully cook with GAS BBQ's.  Oh the shame of it!  To be found outdoor cooking with GAS.  Everyone on the West coast knows that real overcomers ONLY cook on hardwood fires....OK, maybe charcoal in a pinch....

No, we Kansas city folk do our BBQ in a pit, buddy.  

Stick to your surf'n, sunny-bunny.   :D

Chuck

Gee....gosh....I guess you really put me in my place....Here on the West Coast we tend to eat our BBQ kinda rare, cuz it burns our arms to hold the stuff over the fire for so long...

Absolutely.  The whole premise of the leadership, which was all picked by GG.  The teaching of the pre-eminence of the "testimony", the false teaching regarding "overcomers", the continued secrecy, ad infinitumnauseum.

Joseph,
Until just a few days ago*, I saw this T&T Conf. like that (fun time w/friends, etc.) and was going to allow my teens to go.  But what is the purpose behind it?  And, who is conducting it?  First Q: To instruct/indoctrinate.  2nd Q: Mike Zach & Roger Grant.  As much as I love them, they were still two of GG's closest confidantes in the MW.  And especially MZ, who has some very serious documented problems regarding the DG/JG abuse, as well as the Chuck Miller situation and others over the years in Omaha.

*Why just a few days ago?  It's going to take some time for me to see everything clearly. (John Malone & Brent Tr0ckman, you were right again!)  :P :-*

 ...George-the-Fraud-Monster was a wolf...  
 ...Sock-Puppet Zach...
 ...Shameful Hayman...

Wow!  This is swell!  Do we all get special names?  So is George a fraud-monster or a wolf?  Are they the same thing?
I'm confused.  Wow.  

So Mr. Vanasse, what is your title?
Is it quite lovely like these other ones?  

I'm glad there is such a renewed love of the amazing English language.  Wow.  There is a thousand different ways to brighten up someone's name!  Did I say "brighten"?  Sorry.  

Good luck with picking out fun names for everyone else.  It might take a while but in a few months, I think everyone will be covered.

Ciao.

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson  
 

Luke,

Fraud-Monster and Wolf, perhaps, they're redundant...

Well, it's like you - you're Luke or Mr. Robinson or Luke Robinson.

Let's pray for these men - The Fraud-Monster, the ----- one as well as the -------.  Loves covers a multitude of sins and their repentance will cover their shame as well.

The tradegy is that currently there shame is on parade.

I appreciate your input.  I've been wondering about the name calling..."brood of vipers,"  "that fox,"... etc

Bless You, Luke...

Perspective, Lets keep this whole thing in perspective.

The only reason there has been repentance of the leadership is because of exposure.  Sad, but true.  They would have done as always, like they have many times in the years prior, and simply denied and carried on, pretending.

Exposure is sad, but necessary.  Pro-active (real) repentance is much better, but the leaders who repented that way left long ago, and were slandered by the current bunch.

Again, the goal is not hurt and harm, but repentance.  Unfortunately, many of them won't change, let alone repent, unless forced to do so.  So, we do what we must, expose the infuitful workds of darkness, and have no fellowship with them.

The people go free, and the unrepentant leaders will suffer, due to their own ways.

Sow wind.......reap whirlwind.


Brent

Luke,

   I think what you are seeing here is a lot of anger about the fact that George and Mike Zach and the "leadership" split MY family so horrendously that I didnt even meet Uncle Chuck, Aunt Ann, or my grandparents on my mom's side for over almost 15 years!

   You are being sarcastic, I realize, but until you know what it feels like to experience that degree of alienation from family because of a ridiculious "spiritual" standard, you have NO idea what its like.

  Perhaps your experience in the assembly has generally been positive, and I certainly appreciate your willingness to dialogue with those of us who are out of the Assembly. But you MUST realize that your good experience was ATYPICAL. You can no longer assume that everyone on this website has a "grudge" against the assembly (if you were not assuming that I apologize. It just seemed so from your posts)In the future, please show a little more respect for the immense amount of pain, hurt and anger coming out on this site.
 
                                       peace and blessings,
                                                        Nate  

This message is also addressed to Luke Robinson

Luke, I guarantee that you have been damaged spiritually by your association with Geftakys's of all shapes and sizes, including their servants.

You don't realize this yet, but you will.  Do not suppose that you are somehow immune to the leavening that took place.  That assumption is based on pride, which is the #1 ingredient in a leavened loaf.

Pride blinds.  It has blinded me, and it has blinded you.  

If you view yourself as "walking with Christ," and others, who recognize they have been hurt by a false teacher as "less than walking with Christ,"  you are a pharisee.
Yep, I am judging you.  I am passing judgement on you, based on reading your posts, and your own words.

It is not unusual for young men to be proud.  I was far worse than you, guaranteed.
However, if you couple youthful pride with exclusive Geftakys leaven, and then mix in the temptations that come from spiritual elitism, you have a recipe for disaster.

If you don't deal with this, I promise you will reap bitter consequences in the future.

Take from someone who has been there and done that.  Again, I was worse than you, but I know what I am talking about.

Brent

This message is also addressed to Luke Robinson

Luke,

I don't even know who you are anymore...

BrentTr0ckmanFan

Dear Brent,

Thank you for your lovely post.  I DID NOT SAY THAT I WAS IMMUNE TO THE LEAVENING THAT TOOK PLACE.

You, sir, are putting words in my mouth and assumptions in my head.  

And I never said that those that changed gatherings are not walking with Christ, such as the colonel of the GA.com army.  I did not say this in the least.  

Mr. Tr0ckman, please stop these ideas of me being so blind and prideful.  You don't know me.  You have never met me.  

And now I am expected to take this and repent openly or Brent will send fire from SLO and burn me(or from the Keeper of the Flames).

OR, I will have to defend myself to faulty judgement.  

Dear Mr. Tr0ckman, I know who I am in Christ.  I know what I think, and sometimes it might come out the wrong way, but in no way, do I think you or others are not walking with Christ.  In fact, last Wednesday night, I went to a different youth group, and you know what?  I had a great time and made a lot of friends who are walking with the Lord!

You are the one assuming here, my friend.  But thank you again, for your delightful post.  

By the way, is this all about the name-calling episode?  I see that I am "in the back, under discipline."  At least, I go to the ANOP(all night of posting)!  Just kidding.

Sir, cut me some slack and give me a real title like "Little Egotistical AK with No Mind of His Own and Won't Stop Foolishly Posting".  I mean, is this what you think I am?  
Well, do as you please, it is your website, and you are the top guy.  

Luke Robinson  

Do it!!!  Do it!!!!  Change his title to his suggestion!!!

BrentTr0ckmanFan

Dear Luke,
 
  Your 'stick at it-ness' (can I still say that word?) is admirable. You have been caught in the cross-fire which peacemaking always brings. I know you and will defend you from being thrown to the Keeper of the Flames. I think we should recreate the LukeRobinson Fan Club at least.    
  Seriously, I am encouraged at your candor and desire to walk with God.  At this time, I have been encouraged in reading the book of Isaiah and also the Sermon on the Mount.  Hang in there, friend, winning is the objective, losing may be accepted, but quitting is not an option!

    Your friend,
    Wayne (VP Ben's dad)

Chuck V. posted...
                "The assembly way of doing things"...


"George took over the little church in Omaha where several families and singles had been meeting in the Miller home.  Chuck Miller said the first tip he had that George-the-Fraud-Monster was a wolf was that George-the-Fraud-Monster said that their little gathering should "stop breaking bread" until he arrived and "showed them how."

So, I guess the Monster showed all the assemblies how, right?

What a tragedy! ...Chuck Miller was a faithful witness in 1978, but he was opposed by Sock-Puppet Zach and by the Shameful Hayman.  Both men were being led into idolatry by the terrible Fraud-Monster Geftakys.

So, Fraud-Monster spread idolatry throughout the land."

Chuck,

Let me say up front that I agree with you that what GG did regarding the Miller family was unexcuseable, reprehensable, downright evil.  No question of that.

I have a slightly different take on this.  Here it is.

It is one thing to influence a group of young, ignorant kids against their parents.  That is what GG did.  He used lies and character assassination to build up a wall between Mike, Nancy, Becky and whatever other Miller "kids" followed GG's lead in shunning their own father and mother.

It is quite another for 30 to 40+ year old adults to continue to do so.  Literally hundreds of GG's victims have worked their way through the GG deception and gotten on with their lives elsewhere.  I know that Nancy was about 30 when she married JL in the 80's.
I think Mike and Becky are older than she is???

I know they started out as victims, but I think that with the years, some of the responsibility has shifted to their shoulders.  We all will give account for our own lives, and "the Devil made me do it" doesn't count for much.

Have they begun to reconcile since the "fall" of GG?  I hope so.

God bless,
Thomas Maddux

You should do this, that would be amusing.  

I was kidding...but whatever floats your boat.

<sarcasm>use sarcasm tags next time bud  ;)</sarcasm>

make life easier for everyone

ps - love ya luke  ::)

Tom, yes, the Miller extended family klan is starting to be reconciled - grace is flowing or as my good Bro-In-Law Wayne Mathews says "Aslan is on the move"...

You know the Miller kids 51 down to 45 have been involved in the assembly for practically their WHOLE adult lives...Some of them don't quite have their land legs, yet.  It's going to take a while.  

Yes, being held captive under an evil man is a two way thing.  To have idolatry you need two - the idol and the idolator.  

Tom, we're talking about individual sin and we're talking about community sin that spanned decades.

Serious and awesome.

 ;) ;) ;)


 ;);) ;)  

I’ve seen my name being bantered about on the site for some time now, so maybe it’s time I entered the diuscussion.  Tom, you’re quite right in talking about responsibility.  I also have to bear a lot of the blame, since I as much as anyone stood and watched George take over the group that was meeting in our home.

 I had just finished writing some thoughts I have had and was ready to post, when I saw your’s and Chuck’s comments, so I’ll go ahead and post it. It covers the area of individual responsibility

    *******************************************


I have been reading on the site, some of the accounts about the abuses that have been inflicted  by the leadership in the Assembly on the saints in the Assemblies around the country.  I would like to offer a few comments
 
SOMEONE WROTE : Shame on these abusers!

Maybe it’s  time for less of  “shame on the abusers” and a little more of  “shame on me.”    To those who have allowed themselves to be subjected to such ungodly treatment  I would like to say, it’s time to put this behind and get on with your life.  That has to begin with prayer and getting into the word of God.   How many of you have studied Hebrews 13:17?   Now, please notice that I didn’t ask, “How many of you have READ Hebrews 13:17, or “How many of you have read the ASSEMBLY (GEORGE GEFTAKYS) POSITION on Hebrews 13:17?”   Rather, I asked,  “How many of you have STUDIED Hebrews 13:17?”  I  saw the question posed on the website  “What does this verse mean to the people?”  Very unwisely, and perhaps somewhat pridefully, I couldn’t wait to give my answer.   I think now that it would have been better to have said to the inquirer:

 “Dear brother, shut down your computer, go get yourself a Vines Expository Dictionary, an Interlinear Greek-English New Testament, a Strong’s Concordance and a NASB Bible and ASV version to go along with you KJV  –– and start digging.”   Study the word “obey” in the scriptures and in the reference material.  Read Mark 10 :42 and  determine how  Hebrews 13:17 can be reconciled with it.  Resolve not to give up until you do.  When you get finished you will have built a solid conviction based upon ‘rightfully dividing the word of truth’ and you won’t be fooled by the next one who comes along with their perverted concept of  ‘authority.’”

I believe the brother would have been diligent in doing so, and would have experienced the joy of  discovering for himself, a truth upon which to build a solid conviction.

I can certainly empathise with those who have suffered abuse and heartache because of the scripturally unwarranted authority exercised by the leaders in the Assembly.  But there is no excuse for continuing in ignorance as to what Jesus commanded.   It’s time recover that first love that they lost and move on in Him.

And ledt me add this:  Don’t be afraid to read commentaries, especially those that are in opposition to your own beliefs.   It will only do one of two things –– cause you to rethink what you believe  (for some of it could be wrong) and possibly even change your thinking, or ––  make your conviction even stronger in what you do believe.  

SOMEONE WROTE : "We as Christians have every right to expect that everyone who names the name of Christ would depart from iniquity, that they would indeed live a life that adorns the doctrine of Christ and God, our Saviour. We have a right to expect it!  We particularly have a right to expect it from our spiritual leaders. We had a right to expect it from George Geftakys."

Without advocating cynicism or negativism, I would say that we have no right to put our trust in men.  Understand that we can trust someone, without “putting our trust in them.” Be suspicious of those who adulate themselves, or allow themselves to be adulated or placed above others in a gathering of God’s people.  Run from those who would claim to have authority over  you by virtue of a title or office.  Test what they say by the Word of God.  Evil men will eventually betray themselves by saying or teaching things that run counter to the word of God or the instruction of Christ.   That is why it is essential to be grounded in the Word.  Much heartache and suffering could have been avoided if someone would have just asked,  “Isn’t your teaching,  and what you practice iincompatible with Jesus’ instruction concerning leaders in His church?”  They probably wouldn’t have let you stay around for long, but  wouldn’t that have been the best thing that could have happened?

SOMEONE WROTE:   “When you make friends with someone, you don’t do a background check. Same with spiritual leaders--you have goodwill and believe the best. Shame on them for breaking that trust.”

MY RESPONSE :  Love “believes all things,”  but love does not condone our unquestioning obedience to those who would lord over us.  Yes, “shame on them” for breaking that trust, but shame on us for giving it so willingly.  

SOMEONE WROTE:  Now, I am older and I can’t say that I am looking too much for guidance anymore. I have almost (almost but not entirely) given up on the possibility that I’ll find anything of value from anyone else.

MY RESPONSE :   We never stop looking for guidance because we must be constantly studying to show ourselves approved unto God (2 Tim 2:15).   Many have been deceived because they, like myself, failed to check the scriptures to determine if the teaching was scripturally correct (Acts 17:11; 1 Thess 5:21).  To  discontinue seeking guidance would preclude availing ourselves of the teachings of those whom Christ has given to the church (Eph 4:11).  Although we have the Spirit of God and need no one to teach us  (1 John 3:20, 27) we don’t disdain men who teach from the word of God.    Although none are infallible,  error or questionable teaching will become apparent upon careful scrutiny.  God is faithful and will protect those whose hearts are seeking him.   I doubt if anyone who has been deceived, didn’t  somewhere along the way, receive a conviction from the Lord that there was something “rotten in Denmark”  concerning the abusive, authoritarian conduct of the “leaders in the Assembly.   But many, like myself,  were reticent to speak out.  Shame on us.  To those who are still in the Assembly and haven’t been convinced of their deadly doctrine, I would  suggest that they openly ask the leaders how they reconcile  Hebrews 13:17 with Mark 10:42.  To anyone who is contemplating entering into fellowship  with any group of believers I would advise them to avoid like deadly  poison, any church that would elevate any one believer above another or any teacher or leader to a status of guru, whereby his teaching becomes a substitute for careful study of the word of God.

SOMEONE WROTE:  “For the most part, all I see is treachery, hidden motives, and hypocrisy. I still ask now as I did before joining the group, "Is there anyone who does what is right?" But now, even if I find such a one, I probably wouldn’t know it because I’d be suspicious. My heart was tender and open, but now it’s hard, having grown calluses from rough handling. This makes me sad. But still my hope in Jesus, the Righteous One.”

MY RESPONSE : Many are going to experience the same skepticism, while others will bask in self pity and/or bitterness and have a difficult time getting adjusted  to post Assembly life.   I’ve been there and it’s a waste of time.   Admit to and repent of your lack of diligence and your inability to discern false doctrine and ask God to forgive you for your having opened yourself up to deception.  Then see to it that you get well grounded in the word of God so that it doesn’t happen again.

Chuck Miller

Thank you Chuck!

I would also add that if someone is in an Assembly, as sees the things mentioned below taking place, they must say something.

Silence is a guilty accomplice.  If a person doesn't have the courage to say something (I do mean  out loud so people can hear you, not just privately to "leaders" so no one will hear what you said)  then get out of the group now.

Again, thank you Chuck.

Brent

Dear Brent,

I left the Omaha Assembly 25 years ago after having been in fellowship for about 2 1/2 years.  After stepping down as a leading brother because of what I considered to be a double standard and an abuse of authority by the leading brothers, I was subjected to unusual harrassment and  decided to leave.  Unfortunately, five of our children remained in Assemblies, and to date, only one has come out.  We're praying for the rest.

In Him,

Chuck Miller

Bill, this is Chuck Miller...Chuck, this is Bill Gillespie from Omaha.  Bill, is a good friend of John Malone's.

Bill, suspects me of a lot of evil, including dark ambitions according to John Malone.  

Chuck, John is as vicious and as unedifying as I've ever seen him.  You WARNED me to keep him out of it.  Well, you might say he put himself in the middle of this whole thing - Big time.  The hatred and vindictive bile coming from John is unprecedented.  He is perhaps the greatest obstacle for your kids to EVER come out of the assembly.  He's a poster-boy to their fears concerning what's on the outside.

I see no Jesus Christ in that man.

Bill, you wanted to interact with Chuck, here you go.
===================================================================================
Bill, publish, this whole thing...Be my guest.  

That's why - I gave the quote back to you.  Sorry, for mistaking you for Garth.  Your words reveal the true you, Bill.  Good or bad, right?  Your words speak of that which fills the heart.  Check me out...I'm the son-in-law of Chuck Miller.  We spent two years in Cost Rica together and have traveled many places sharing the gospel.  Oh, and BTW - He has more concerns than I do with John Malone.  Do you want me to "cut and paste" you his warnings to me about John.

Write him yourself at chuckfmiller@hotmail.com ...And, then publish what he says.  ;D

You're right we're not Pals, I'm praying for you, Bill.

Chuck, here's my most recent exchange with Bill.

C- Very cool...Now that's the ticket with Nate!  

B - you should make that a public statement

C - BTW, you can write Chuck Miller at chuckfmiller@hotmail.com.  He and I are best friends, I'm his son-in-law...We've lived together for several years and yes his Bible has only gotten better.  He's in Costa Rica but will be back in the country on April 1st.

B - I'll know soon enough about this best friend business. Your posts make claim to a lot of things that are suspect.

C - You and I have some differences, however, I think you're a kindred spirit.

B - The only Spirit worth considering is the Holy Spirit. If we are both walking in him we will have fellowship one with the other.

C - BTW, Chuck Miller and I both have concerns concerning abrasive ways of communicating...This traditionally has been our concern with folks trying to get at the bottom of something.  I think it is also why it's taken 25 years for him to start getting reconciled with his family - there was until very recently always an undercurrent of bitterness going on.

B - Mr. Miller just wrote he still has four children in the assemblies, only one is out. I do know his children (and their spouses) have treated him wickedly and put him though much pain. I'll find out where you fit in with all this.

C - We've got to imitate the great Physician

B - You're talking about the God/man. He is one of a kind. I prefer looking at other bible examples to follow, such as the apostle Paul
...

C - You're Garth Xander, right?...I think I used to see you over at AssemblyLodge.com

B- I'm Bill Gillespie

C - I'd like to bury the hatchet and move forward together.  Truce?  You're right I am full of "crap" sometimes, be careful though most people react to being cursed at.

B - You bury hatchet's in the back of those who tell the truth. You behave as my enemy, though as a brother you are not, and I don't trust you.

C - Can we chat?

B- The public forum is where I'll stay with you. In fact, in the future I'll publish any private messages you send me.

C - Your Pal in Kansas, Chuck

B -You have called way too many people your pal.


Chuck Vanasse
913.488.1046

Hello to all- good to see some of these names of old!  My name is Ginny Beers (Franzese) and I grew up with my mom (Patty- the greatest mom in the world, not to mention the strongest Chritian I know) and two brothers (Bobby and John) in the Assembly in Omaha.  My dad was not 'in fellowship' so our situation was a little different than most and we weren't subjected to quite as much of the abuse and control as others.  So, having left about nine years ago and not having the horrific, life-consuming experiences of most of the kids I grew up with, you may wonder why I am posting or why I care.  As my mom shared with me the developments of late and my brother shared with me the geftakysassembly website, I found myself, like Nate Mattews, strangely drawn to the information and I began to question why...(by the way, I was completely an 'outsider who never measured up' partly b/c of my strong will and partly b/c my dad was not in fellowship and I absolutely dreaded the plays, the teen times, the seminars, the alternatives, etc b/c I always felt as though I was being scrutinized and I couldn't play volleyball.  Subsequently, I have always despised favoritism which was so prevelent in the Assembly).  

Let me copy some of an e-mail that I recently sent to Bill and Joyce Hines (this may seem a little choppy b/c some of the e-mail was specifically written to Joyce and Bill and I have thus negated it...):


"Let me preface this e-mail by stating that I have certainly gone through periods of darkness in my life and at times been so far from the Lord that I wondered if I had really ever known Him.  There have been plenty of times when I knowingly chose a life of sin.  My sinful behavior and time spent living in darkness cannot be blamed on my involvement with the Assembly.  We are each responsible and accountable to the Lord for our own behavior.  However, those who misused and abused or are misusing and abusing positions of power must take public responsibility for their actions b/c people's lives, ability to trust, and ability to enter into a true relationship with the Lord have been devastatingly altered.  

As Christians, we believe that the Lord is our one and only true refuge and strength and we trust that when we are in His house with His people we are in a safe and Godly environment.  Therefore, when we seek counsel from our brothers and sisters in Christ, we believe that we are seeking wise counsel, not worldly / wicked counsel.  To then find out that the one place that we felt safe, the one people that we trusted and confided in is using their spiritual positions to work evil can be nearly equated to being spiritually and emotionally raped.  While I do not feel that I personally experienced this while in the Assembly, others do.  In my opinion, there is little worse you can do to someone than to rob them of the ability to trust in the Lord and be able to confide in and cherish His people.  

I am so saddened by the state of the Assembly.  As you may be aware, I left many years ago, am married, and my husband and I have a strong faith.  My primary reason for disassociating myself as a "member" of the Assembly was b/c of their intolerant stance on so many issues, including their lack of willingness to accept other Christians as being just as Christian as they were (are).   This does not mean, however, that I do not love many of the people there.  As Rachel states in her testimonial, I believe that most people in the Assembly have good hearts and want to walk with the Lord.  I have even worshipped with them in recent months.  I love many of the 'saints' and I pray diligently that they will truly seek the Lord with regard to where and how he would have them continue their relationship with Him.  

There are so many wonderful Christian people and Churches out there.  It's encouraging that you both and many others who have left have found or are finding healthy church homes, a place to learn and grow in Christ.  However, in seeking to assist others you may want to consider that much information that is now coming out is being taken with a grain of salt.  People who appear to be jumping on the band wagon will not be taken seriously by those of us who are looking for answers.  Even those of us who left many years ago still deal with issues regarding trusting people in positions of leadership in the church, and, analyzing the information that is now being made public will help as the Lord continues to heal each of us and guide us as to what His will truly is for our lives."


In my response to Bill's response I wrote the following:

"I feel that anyone who was involved with children or teens (the most formative years of a persons' life) should be held in a sense more accountable for the negative impact they had in the lives of those young, defenseless people- b/c believe me, that impact is still present in our lives today.    I simply want some people to start being honest and start taking some accountability, especially those who are speaking out publicly.

I left when I was still young (in high school more or less) and I have struggled ever since with my walk with the Lord (not that I didn't struggle while I was in the Assembly).  It is only in very recent months that I have, for the first time in my life, begun to find the freedom to truly walk with the Lord.  However, as I have been keeping up with what is going on, I am learning that much of the reason I haven't been able to "stick at it" is b/c for so many years I equated the Assembly way with walking with God.  That whole "their way is the only way or better way" ideology has stuck with me.  I have a really hard time trusting people who claim to be Christians.  How do I know what is true and right when everything that I learned from the time I was born to the time I was about 17 has been tainted?  How do I know that anyone who writes on that board or submits articles is being honest?  These are the things I have been struggling with and yet they are things that should be addressed b/c I believe with all my heart that anyone who was ever involved with the Assembly has a lot of healing to do and I know that God will be instrumental in that process.  But, honesty from those by whom we have been hurt will immensely help us to make sense of this whole mess.  Does that make sense?

I want to reiterate that I do not agree with most of the teachings of the Assembly and haven't for years.  I absolutely do not agree with their intolerance for Christians who do it different than they do.  I do not believe that people should be shunned for their sin or difficulty.  I believe that Christians are commanded to love one another and that when people are having a hard time Christians should simply love on them and not pass judgement.  The Lord deals with people's sin in His time and in His way.  Isn't that what being part of a family is all about?  But just for kicks (as if my little opinion carries a whole lot of weight), I'll tell you that I think their method of chapter summary is an effective way to study the Bible and I employ it even today in my daily devotions.  Being able to critically analyze the Bible from a young age has probably also helped in the development of my critical thinking abilities...just a theory.  On another note, I think that some of their beliefs about child rearing make a whole lot of sense (of course the ones that I agree with are also those taught by many healthy and normal Christians such as Dr. Dobson- parent-centered families, not letting children be the adults in the family, etc).  

Like I said, I love some of those people (but I have a pretty big heart and a huge capacity to forgive so I love just about everyone).  Then again, some of them simply stump me.  I don't get them.  I don't know why, even after all this has come out, they would not get out and away from people such as Mike and Cheryl and Tim Geftakys, etc.  

For what it's worth, I am about to begin work on my Masters Thesis and I think that I will write it on abusive churches and the long-term sociological affects these organizations have on their members.  Should be interesting!

This e-mail has now become a hodgepodge of my thoughts...sorry about that.  But, it's helpful to be able to finally conceptualize some things that have haunted me and so many others for years.  I believe that the Lord has used and will continue to use this devastating chain of events in healing many people and reconciling them to Him.

I do not think Brother George would appreciate the fact that your married name is "Beers".  I think he would find it very Ungodly that your last name now represents an alcoholic beverage.

I hereby call on you to change your last name!!! If you do not, I will suggest that you have a consequence.
 

o my.  you are so right.  i pray for forgiveness and hereby change proclaim my last name changed to magicmikeknowsall.  

my last post was inappropriate.  i apologize.

This just came from a brother in Omaha...This information is still being verified.

"Mike Zach & Mark Sjogren stepped down completely, and read individual letters of repentance...."

He also says, "I hope they take some kind of initiative to make that public."

The same brother says that one of the leading brothers reported to him..."that Mike repented of pride, superiority, control and manipulation. ----- didn't remember anything about lying and that's all I know about Mike Zach. ----- said Mark's seemed especially genuine. I did not ask for details on Mark."

Pray for these men that they will have the courage to make their repenteance public so that healing and reconciliation with their many victims may commence.

Chuck Vanasse
chuck@vanant.com

WONDERFUL, WONDERFUL NEWS. GOD IS ANSWERING PRAYER. THE GOOD SHEPHERD STRIKES AGAIN!
We must keep praying! This confirms things I have heard as well.
Pat