AssemblyBoard

Greetings everyone:
I have a question. Perhaps this subject in general could really be expanded on by others better than I. Here's the question:
    What does-(or do they?)- the Geftakys family teach concerning contraception, family size, and related issues?
Would you say that their position is one of personal freedom according to individual conscience, or do they dictate in this area in terms of members personal lives?
Yours,
Sebastian Andrew

Very good question:

Because we are talking about the Assembly here, there are a few things to consider.

1.) There is no comprehensive policy regarding families per se, everything is by suggestion, couples' meetings, perspective of bro. so and so, etc.  Certain books are highly esteemed, The Perles, Fugate and others.
2.) It was taught explicitly by Betty Geftakys, and many of her adherents, that birth control is sin, because it violates the first command ever given to man by God, "be fruitful and multiply."
3.) This teaching has been blunted and softened by Tim Geftakys, who teaches that contraception and sterilization is OK for several reasons, one of which is financial.  Tim tends to be much more balanced in many of his views.  Nevertheless, the majority of "saints" have larger families than the average american.  I really can't say this is a bad thing, or a good thing, it is merely a fact. My wife and I have 5 children, and we don't regret it for a minute.  However, it is hard for some. I have also spoken to the children of several families who have 8 or 9 kids and these kids say that it is too many.
4.) Truly godly women don't work outside the home according to The Assembly. Again, this has softened a little bit over the years, but Ginger, Tim's wife, has worked outside the home since before 1983, which was when I got involved.  She was totally unique in this regard.  Many women gave up careers and have unused diploma's due to getting married in the Assembly.
5.) Childtraining was a major focus for years. This included mat training, no-fussing, teaching first time obedience, etc.  In the 80's and 90's the average Assembly kid got more than a dozen spankings a week, some much more.  Again, all I am telling you is my own first hand account.  This is totally accurate info.  I don't know if they have mellowed out on childtraining lately, but I wouldn't be surprised.  Over the years, some of the saints, even leaders, have had their kids taken away for a time by DSS.  Again, I am not saying that the kids should be taken away, I am only stating a fact.  One woman, who grew up in The Assembly, told me this recently:

 "When I think that there are 3 year old girls out there, being treated like that, I just can't stop crying."

This woman has vivid memories of angry parents and spankings before bed etc.  I think this is more the norm in the Assembly than the exception.  There are some exemplary parents in the Assembly as well, but they are few and far between.
6.) There is tremendous pressure to conform.  Very little, if anything was left to individual conscience, at least up until 2000, when I left.  If it wasn't dictated outright from the pulpit, it was dictated via "suggestions" in times of discipling.  Dress, hairlength, diet, manner of speech, and much more was quite regimented.  Again, these are my direct observations over 17 years. I visited from coast to coast and had my eyes wide open the whole time.

I don't think anyone would contradict what I have just said, and I know many out there could add a great deal to it.  I have decided not to go into detail about some of the childtraining techniques in my writing, because I don't want the authorities to use my words to remove the children from their homes.  I do not think that is right at all.

Interestingly, here in SLO several leader's and other families had their kids taken out of school and interogated by DSS about 2 years ago.  They took the opportunity to blame me for it, telling everyone I had accused them.  I did no such thing, and abhor the idea.

However, someone did report them for child abuse, and I hope they have toned it down.  The simple fact is that their kids are not happy. Everyone in town knows it, except the Assembly parents.

Be careful what you say about the kids. They are innocent and don't need any more trauma, especially from our government.  What they do need is God's Grace.

The saddest thing about the Assembly is that innocent people, like the kids, are damaged spiritually and emotionally.  There is physical abuse as well, but let's be fair, it doesn't just happen in the Assembly.  The tragedy is that if an abused kid from the "world," can find comfort in Christ, by getting involved in a church youth group, etc.  An Abused Assembly kid has no such resource in the Assembly.  They only get legalism, deception, and a pharisaic influence. Being a normal child is not allowed in the Assembly.  Oh, sure there are a few that seem OK, but history has shown, beyond any doubt that this group is not growing and thriving, and for good reason.

On a postive note, the Omaha based band Remedy, seems to me to be a bright spot. More on them later.

Brent

Greetings Brent and everyone:
Thank you for the response, it was wisely done. I agree. The State will never be a good parent, and even at their best are not a substitute for a poor parent-except, of course, in the case of serious (beyond spanking) physical abuse or the child's life is in danger. Even this is fraught with difficulty and danger-some believe spanking to be abuse....and on it goes.
  I have personally seen a woman at least in the mental sense be very cruel to her daughter. I am not aware of any "beating up," but the frequency of the disciplining is what I took issue with. Here is the rub in all of this for the assembly member: they are propogandized to emulate leaders' behavior as if everything that they do is God's way, or at least the wisest way. Surely the child internalizes some horrible picture of God through this training, nothing more than a caricature to be disposed of when they reach adulthood, if not before. If anyone else could weigh in on this it would be great. I brought the topic up because of its priority/importance in the scheme of things. Just be wise in how we write on it-no names or places, generalizations.
Yours,
Sebastian Andrew

Here is some additional information in response to the question about contraception.  The irony is that when the assembly first began George and Betty promoted small families with only one or two children.  The idea was that your children would distract from serving God so you should keep that distraction to a minimum by limiting the number of children.  That has changed, however to what Brent was describing.  It also explains why older saints such as Tim and Ginger, and David and Judy, etc. have smaller families then the families started in the last 12 or so years.

Regarding abuse.  I have witnessed physical abuse first hand.  The tragedy is as a child you are told that not only is this way of being treated normal but godly, holy and spiritually superior.    

There is a hard decision.  Is a foster home better?  The abuses that occur in foster homes and in the Children’s Services make it difficult to justify them as a viable alternative.  Ultimately, the best scenario is that families get out of that place while their children are young and get help.  Better yet never get involved.

I can say from first hand knowledge (my own experience) that the “Assembly” way of child training does not produce fruit in your children’s lives.  It produces one of two things: 1) angry, rebellious children or 2) twice the Pharisee of the parent.  Thank God we got out when we did and did not really train our two younger children with the zeal we trained my first daughter.  My older daughter, who is 16, thank God, has not thrown out the baby with the bath water.  She thankfully had some godly examples in her life (she attends a Christian private school and for about a year prior to our leaving the Assembly, she had begun attending a youth ministry at a wonderful EV Free church-this is where we are all now attending church!)  The pastors at these churches began to give my daughter some wonderful insight prior to our leaving and since leaving has done a wonderful job of ministering healing to our whole family.  I believe the extreme pressure (especially as the child grows into the teen years) placed on these kids is so unhealthy, it is no wonder that the kids are leaving in droves and those who are staying are growing up to be worse than their parents (they look down at other Christian kids, believing that they are not as spiritual, etc.) and they certainly aren’t winning believers to the kingdom by their hypocrisy.  I could write a novel, but this is not the place!

Thank God we have been delivered!

Ahhh....uh hmmmmm.....ehhh....err.... ::)

Kim? This is the place for your novel.  Unless you know of another?
I would love to hear more from you about this.

Brent

A few years back, I was doing the simple task of dusting my house.  I had always used cleaning products, but decided I would try something different.  I knew that someone else in the gathering used some different methods for cleaning.  She ran one of the homes that Betty Geftakys stayed in.  In order to help with Betty's many ailments,  they would dust with water, disinfect with vodka, etc.  I called her and got her advice.

I decided I would try it.  As I was cleaning, I had a little time to think.  I thought about my mom, who is Betty's age, she has always kept a beautiful home, even with seven kids.  To this day, she pushes a vacuum cleaner, shops, cooks and dusts.  

Then, as I was dusting with water, I started thinking about Betty.  I wondered when was the last time she did any housework.  I immediately stopped that train of thought, because I was being critical.  But I couldn't help realizing that she essentially had a vacation home, here in SLO that was set up entirely for her visits.  Not only was a room available, but they bought all the right cookware, cleaning products, water filters, air filters, organic food, etc.  This they did all   yearlong!  The girls that ran and paid for her vacation home would ask for time off work in order to "serve" Betty when she would visit.  

As I realized what I had known for years, and began to consider it, I couldn't help think of the Queen of England and the royal vacation home of Balmoral.  I mean here is Betty, she does nothing, she has a private nurse, chef, secretary, servant, driver, etc.  As if that isn't enough, she has people willing to make their homes revolve around a possible visit from Betty, at their expense.  I remember being asked to go over this house one time and cleaning a bathroom for the girl who rented Betty's vacation home, because she couldn't get time off work and Betty was in the car!  I did this for her, even though I had my own bathrooms to clean.

So all this was rattling around in my mind, I felt so guilty and confused.  How could I be thinking these things about a godly woman like Betty?  Yet, I knew that everything I was thinking was as true as the water dampened rag I was using to dust.  I needed help with my perspective, so I called my husband.

When I explained all this to him, he said, "Why don't you call Judy?" (Betty's ex-daughter in law)

When I called Judy, I was prepared to get chewed out for daring top think like this, which is what I thought I deserved.  But I needed help, so i was willing to put my neck out and walk in the light, not trying to hide my shameful thoughts in the dark.

Judy laughed!  She then said, "Betty will have to give account before the Lord for all the lives she has consumed."  I was shocked, yet I knew that I had just heard the truth, perhaps for the first time in years.  There was no other possible explanation.  No one else in the ministry has the privileges that George and Betty have.  We all existed for their use.  It was OUR privilege to serve them in our homes, whereas all they did in return was talk to us about something, or accept our money. Many times, when they blessed us with their opinions, they would just place a heavy burden on us, while they never lifted a finger!

The lights went on, and our family was gone 6 months later.

Suzie

Hey Suzie Q--I'm with you all the way on this one!  For the benefit of those who don't know me (I have always been an "outsider" from a compromised church), I worked for Brent for a few years, along with another girl who was from the Assembly.  There were CONSTANTLY issues with her needing me to cover for her AT THE LAST MINUTE so she could take time off to "prepare for houseguests", including instances where I was very ill.  At first, I just figured she meant ordinary friends visiting, but as I learned more about the Assembly, I realized that it was in fact Mrs. Geftakys.  I guess I should say Betty to clarify.  I did think it was weird that she needed extra time just to get ready--just throw some clean sheets on the guest bed, right?  Now I realize the extent to which she lived her life in constant awareness and preparation for her "visits".  How sad that everyone's life had to be turned upside down for this woman (BG).  >:(  Worse yet was the fact that the sister mentioned had her own health problems, leading her to be extremely tired and fatigued quite often.  Yet she was still expected to be a servant.

For those lurkers who may be reading this who still feel that catering to "The Visitor" is a normal way of life: IT'S NOT.  My husband and I have houseguests frequently.  Most of them are gracious enough to forgive any overlooked housecleaning, to eat off of the dishes that we happen to have, eat whatever food we provide, and sometimes even voluntarily wash their own sheets and towels when they leave.  None of them expect us to take time off to so much as take them to the city (though we try to), let alone to wait on them hand and foot.  THIS IS THE NORMAL WAY OF DOING THINGS.   ::)

I have made a LOT of observations like this from my onlooking perspective.  

Suzie,
I used to live in a home in SLO that was all geared towards serving Betty.  One sister there told me she was zapping herself with a cow zapper to rid herself of worms, so she could have the honor of cooking for Betty.  That was so weird, and I still remember to this day that conversation with her.  Weird, huh?

Hi Everyone,
  Rachel, I talked with my 2 daughters, Deborah & Rebekah, and they remember you well and send you greetings.  You are quite right that GG and Betty encouraged small families at the beginning for exactly the reason you mentioned (kids get in the way of "The Work").
  My children have children now and because of their "Assembly child training" have difficulty in any kind of discipline.  When we left the Assembly I put a stop to spanking of any kind with our children.  I think it was hard on the kids to go from a very strict environment to one where they had liberty to choose a path for themselves.
   Assembly parents never really grow up as Christians, as they are never allowed to choose on their own to follow the Lord.  The same scenario is played out with the kids in their raising as with the parents in their Assembly "raising".
   Also, in the Assembly everyone takes a hand in the parenting of your children.  It is almost like Hillary Clinton's book, "It Takes A Village"; however in this case "It Takes A Assembly"!  This creates a herd mentality that punishes individual creative thought as rebellion, and rewards quiet compliance to the dictatorial Assembly rule.  Kim is quite right in observing the 2 different results of such child training: hypocrisy, or "rebellion" to the taskmasker view of God the Assembly posits.    God Bless,  Mark

Greetings everyone:
Thanks to all for sharing, although I don't doubt that the half has yet been told.
   Once I joined a couple for conversation in the kitchen. We began to laugh and joke around when their daughter-probably about 9 or 10 years at this time-came up to her Mum and hopped into her arms. Betty G. happened to enter the kitchen at the same time and very nastily said "this is going to stop right now!" I simply walked away.
   First of all, it was a refreshing change to see this family so playful together, rather than hearing the mother berate her daughter as so often happened and then the inevitable swats and crying.
  Secondly, I had great hopes that this wasn't somehow staged for Betty G.'s sake. The father, a leading brother, had spoken of BG's visit in an almost ecstatic fashion-i.e. the Lord's going to set things right. I gathered that Betty must have been giving them family counseling, although he didn't put it to me that way directly. As near as I can figure, Betty didn't approve of that kind of display of affection.
   It was hinted to me strongly that I should take advantage of God's servant and get counseling while she was there. After seeing what I thought then(and do now) to be an arrogant attitude I wasn't interested.
Yours,
Sebastian Andrew

 

This topic is probably one of the sadder aspects of the assemblies.  The teaching that was being given was to begin discipline at 4 months old.  :'(  Those who rejected the "teaching" were told:  "Well that's not the Assembly way.  At what time do you expect to get first-time obedience."  It's interesting that the leadership was excluded from the "fruit of the teaching".  The burden was placed on others to obtain first-time obedience but their own children were anything but obedient.

Eric

Eric

Commenting on your last post,  Some of the leaders were excluded from having to have perfect children, but the pressure they put on their children to be perfect was tremendous. Like any "pastor's kid," LB's children were under the worst sort of pressure to play the part.  No one's children were exempt.  Perfect example: David G. He can still be a leader, even though his kids were out of line, but don't think for a second that his kids weren't under pressure!

On the other hand, some of the LB's have amazing, straight A, outreach attending kids.  These came out of the pressure looking good.  Some of them even stick around for al while.  This is what Kim was mentioning:

The fruit of all this is either discouragement, or Pharisee.

Of course, there are a few who are actually pretty neat kids.  That is where the hope for the future lies,  should the ministry continue.

Brent

Greetings:
   I do hope that Karen Sanford will continue to share her observations. Her objectivity as an outsider ( outsider only in the sense of not having been an assembly member- and as a believer near and dear) who to a degree witnessed the "assembly way" is especially valuable in my estimation, at least.
   I would almost pay-but I have no money- to get more observations from Rachel S., S. Tr0ckman, KIMBERLEY Tobin, Ex-Assembly member(Guest), and others.
Yours,
Sebastian Andrew  

Sebastian:

How refreshing coming from a brother that he would like to hear the sisters’ perspective.  And let me tell you, we have a lot to say (if my life is any judge!)  Over time, at least I will share as the Lord leads.  Having been in the Assembly for fifteen years, and one of the few single mothers (for six and a half years), I think I have a rather interesting contribution to shed some light on the Assembly and it’s teachings.  Please pray for us that our contributions would be such that it would open up the eyes of those who are questioning and answer some nagging doubts and questions of others.  Thank you for your encouragement Sebastian, as I am sure it will motivate some to contribute more.

Sebastian:

I too am glad to have my input appreciated.  I am willing to give insight whenever I can and anticipate my contribution to increase.  My problem is I don't know where to start.  (Brent - I know you know were I should start but I am refering to the BB).  I usually share when I can add information or insight on questions or comments of other.  

For all ex-assembly kids out there or just assembly kids.  It would be great to hear from you regarding your experiences and observations.  As a child growing up in the assembly, there are a lot of things I just know went on.  I may not be able to give the exact day someone told me, "this is how we do it." but I just knew that was how it was done.  It is the same way with any child.  We learn from example and we pick up on the motivations and actions more then the words.  I think that gives us a unique view point.

By the way, Rachel is the same person as Rachel S.  I logged in under Rachel but when I was having trouble staying logged in I was forced to post under Rachel S.  Now I can stay logged in so I always post under Rachel

Thank you Sebastian, you are very kind.  I have sort of a weird feeling about sharing on this board--Kind of like it's not "mine" to post on because I am not a surviving Assembly member.  I read everyone's entries with interest and I will definitely post where I feel like I have a good contribution to make.  As Brent, Suzie, Rachel, and many others know, I have NEVER in my life been at a loss for words.  ;D

If you have anything specific to ask me, please do!  

Hi Everyone,

Karen, I would like to reiterate what Sebastian said.  Your posts are needed and appreciated.  What you saw as a witness in varying degrees can be of great value.  Sometimes it was the observation of an outsider that made me think in the first place.  I could argue with a former assembly member ("He's in sin!"), but often I struggled with questions and input from outside christians (and sometimes unbelievers).

Lord bless you,
Eric

Greetings Karen Sanford:
What tipped you off as you mingled with assembly members that something was amiss? I understand that this will be a long article since you are "not at a loss for words"-great.
Yours,
Sebastian Andrew