AssemblyBoard

Hi! This is my first post. I have known the Lord since I was 17 and am worshiping with believers in the UK (not an "Assembly")Two very dear friends of ours have joined themselves to "an Assembly" in the UK and I am concerned for them. From their conversations with me I sensed they were involved with "loose cannons" Am I right or wrong? I have longed for them to know Christ and with their welfare in mind I sought more info on the web. What I`ve found disturbs me. Should I be disturbed? I am open to talk with folks re whats going on in your group and the need for honest communication to my friends about the consequences of joining you.

Dear HH

You should do everything you can to get your friends out of there, if for no other reason than they would be much better off in a church with more than a dozen people!

England is somewhat far removed from George, and is far less abusive, to the point of maybe being benign, but God has not ever blessed the group there.

Plenty of other churches around, why attend that one!

Brent

Can you fill me in on who you guys are? Is the site you run an official "Assembly" site ie.you are members in fellowship? Or are you ex-members in fellowship via this forum? I am glad of the advice you are giving and would be glad of any more info to give me a better insight.

Dear HH,  many of us who post here are ex-members, not all.  My advice for you is to let your friends read this web site and see the havoc & things that have taken place over the past 30 yrs and keep hidden in the closet.  I'm sure they have questions too, let them come here and ask for themselves.  I'm glad to see you're concerned and very well should be!!

Dear Brent,

Just a few observations.

So you are saying that these people would be better off in another church, because other churches have more than a dozen people.  So the Chinese Christians in China meeting in homes, should stop and join the Three Self Church, because their gathering only has six or seven people.  The mormon church has more people than we do!  Should I go join them?  That should definetly not be a reason why you leave one place and go to another.

So your gathering is blessed by the number of people that you have.  

Deuteronomy 7:7-8
The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because you were in more number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

God picked Israel, not because of how many people they had, or because how powerful they were.  GOD DOES NOT DEAL WITH NUMBERS.  I heard someone say,"One man with God is a majority."  So even if the gathering in England has only two people who want to serve God, He will use it and bless it.  If the Lord is there, he will bless it.  Just because it doesn't have three thousand members, and a huge cathedral, and a ten thousand dollar offering every Sunday, doesn't mean that God isn't blessing.  
"Guys, you gotta leave that place, because it only has twelve people!"

Dear HH, you should in no way be disturbed.  There is still a God in heaven and He knows all of the problems in every gathering.  When you talk to your friends in the assembly, speak with wisdom, and try the teachings whether they be true or not.  That is where you'll find your answer.  In the word of God.

A Concerned Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson

Define "we" - there are 1.9 billion Christians in the world, of which 4.4 million are Mormon (if you want to call them Christians, that is.)

Luke, are you purposely twisting Brent's words?  Because nit-picking really doesn't do much besides cause distraction in threads.  What Brent seemed to be saying is that a church with more than a few congregants is less dangerous than one with a more limited number.  There is less accountability in smaller groups.  (If you don't believe me, explain where all that cash went in Fullerton!)

I've experienced a hurt, frustrated lashing-out when it comes to seeing with your own eyes that an organization that you put all your faith in is not what it was supposed to be.  (Even I have experience with that.)  Be careful here, brothers, not to sling that hurt and frustration around to slap out at other people.  You won't feel any better, and neither will they.  God doesn't work that way.

HH, be disturbed.  I have never been exposed to an organization like this one.  In conversations and e-mails and posts, I've yet to read/hear anything about the organization that brings joy and freedom to someone's life.  

My recommendation to you:  Ask your friends to explain the gospel to you, as clearly as they can.  

Listen carefully.  Then gently explain the freedom in the gospel message to them.  Sadly, though, be prepared to meet a brick wall when you do.  But fear not!  God uses the most interesting ways to get messages through.

Dear Michelle and Brent,

Alright.  I did go a little far with the Mormon comment.  But when we are talking about numbers, you could take that a whole lot of ways.  I was using it in a specific aspect to say the gathering that I go to, and the Mormon Temple down the street.  They have hundreds of people.  The reason I said this is because I don't want HH to get the idea that you can see God blessing in a gathering by the amount of people that they have because that is not what the Bible teaches.

Secondly, I do not put my faith in an organization in a group.  I put my faith in God, in the word and in the servants that He chooses.

Lastly, how do you know that maybe the gospels will agree?  And maybe, this gathering is going by God's word?
You just don't know what God can do in a situation like that.

As I said before, HH, try the teachings.  When you hear all what is being taught, go to the word and let God show you the truth.  

Again, what is there to be disturbed about?  There is a God in heaven.  Our human resources can do nothing.  We must trust Him to lead us and not go by the seat of our pants.

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson  

True dat, Luke.  I don't "know" anything.  But, upon an educated guess, I'll wager on the gospels being different.  Because if the true gospel were being preached and taught, it would be next to impossible for them (or anyone) to be ensnared in this organization for any length of time.

God is good, though!  Look what he's done so far!   ;D

Dear Brent, Michelle, and Everyone reading this,

I am really sorry how I have been treating everyone tonight.  There has been a lot of sarcasm.  A lot of disrespect.  A lot of downright nastiness.(if that is a word)  And I would like to just stop it.  Right here and now.  
It does not help what is going on here, it is just pushing it the opposite way.  I would like to repent, like Brent, for being sarcastic.  I know that I have spoken about how badly people treat others on this website and here I am doing the same thing!!  Pray for me.  That I would have my speech seasoned with grace.  Thank you to all those that have brought my foolishness to my attention.  He is able.  

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson

Having heard all you have said I get the impression that many of you are smitten with  the "churchianity" bug as I was in the past. Let me explain. I read in a book called "New Wineskins" that individuals in the early church spent 95% of their time in the world.They were going about their daily work,socialising,playing sports,buying and selling etc. etc.. But through all of that they were being a testimony to the life and death of Christ.They were salt in a rotting world.They were returning to the church building and to friends with a need of prayer and to worship. If God didn`t answer who was going to supply their need. Certainly not the state. Thats what was done plus other stuff in the other 5% of their time as believers. I have also experienced what happens to believers when we live in each others pockets.To day those percentages are reversed. It`s not healthy. We are the church whether in the building or not. I am the church in my neighbourhood along with my family. I am no longer obsessed with, "full time ministry", "my ministry", impressing other believers and so on. They are all things and more that we are into when we live in eachothers pockets. We have invented "church speak". A language no one out there understands. God intends that I "get a life" and He`s offering one. Forgive me for preaching. I do hope all of you find healing for your hearts and hope for tommorrow. I will join my friends soon on a visit to their "assembly" and see for myself what gives. The last thing I want to do is shatter their faith and disillusion them. I want to see them grow. I`ll keep you posted.

Never, ever shatter someone's faith.  We're called to speak the truth in LOVE, and I believe that means gentle, gentle conversations.  I hope your comment wasn't directed at me re: shattering faith.  I didn't mean "go debate them."  I meant, have open communication with them, see where they stand because of what they've been taught.  Then let God use you to reach out to them with the gentle and forgiving gospel.

I agree wholeheartedly re: speaking like no one else in the world does.  To converse on this site, I've had to dredge up what I used to call PCA-speak.  (The Presbyterian Church in America has many extremely intellectual churches in StL, along with Covenant Seminary.  Words like "grace" and "justification" and "sanctification" et al become common, and it took a wonderful guy, covered in tattoos and earrings and holding a huge heart for God, to show me how silly that was.)  We are never called to throw ourselves into church buildings and hide.  I am not a Christian school teacher, I do not homeschool my son, I do not work in a church - I am out in the big bad world of finance.  And I try every single day to be a testimony to Jesus.  But do I mention Him?  No.  It's through my actions, not words.  Have I touched people's lives?  Yes.  Do they wonder why I do the things I do for them?  Yes.  And that's the groundwork.

I am a believer 100% of the time.  And I spend about 4 hours a week, at best, inside my church.  "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations..."  Those desperately in need of Jesus don't generally come to church.  They are found in book stores and coffee shops and on the street and in my office - looking for financial advice!   ;D  And that's where I meet them - where they're at.

If I go back to sounding like myself, without KJV and pompous churchspeak, can we still be friends, all?   ;)

HH, LOVE ON your friends.  That's the best thing in the world you can do.  And tell them that Jesus wants them to "Love God, love others."  If they can live up to that challenge, they have God's heart!

Luke:

((((HUGS))))

-m.

Hey hh, God will honor your labor of love.  

Lord Bless,
G

First, you say that you are putting your faith in the "servants that He (God) chooses".  It wasn't God who chose these leaders, it was George.  George put these men in power and if they did not agree with George, they were removed from power.  That is not God putting these men in power.  We all know who George has been proven to be; a wicked, evil man.  What scriptural principal applies here?  Math 7:15-20; 15 ¶ Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16  Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17  Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18  A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19  Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20  Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

George could only produce evil fruit, this is a scriptural principal.  These mens teachings are corrupt (ask any pastor to thoroughly research the teachings of the assembly, they will tell you it is heretical.)

Secondly, George was an expert at twisting God's word.  Just because the gatherings go by "God's word" doesn't make it doctrinally sound.  (see my first point.)

Thirdly, how much more information do you want God to give you regarding the assembly in order for you to acknowledge you are in a cult?  Yes, God is leading you, to acknowledge what those brothers and sisters have been shouting from the rooftops: GET OUT WHILE THERE IS STILL TIME, GOD IS NOT IN THIS, IT IS WICKED FROM THE ROOT.  Request Brian Steele's written critique of the assembly after he was successfully deprogrammed out of the assembly.

Begin to use critical thinking and do some research (not the written material provided you by the assembly booktable - but research regarding cults - it will be eye opening.)  Then talk with people, not just bb, but on the phone, in person, speak with people and find out their perspective.  

We love you!  That's why we're here.

Dear Kimberly,

Thank you for your advice, but I think we are coming at this the wrong way.  You like to use verses like "false teacher",  "wicked", "evil", and "corrupt".  I thank you for your opinion.  
You are thorougly convinced that George and all the teachings can be described by those four lovely adjectives above.  Let us not be so hasty in what we call others.  You will stand for what you say.  And if they are untruthful, God will know.  

George has fallen.  He is only human.  But beware as it says in I Corinthians 10:2-
Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Now I don't agree with everything with what George has said over the past years, but I believe that many of the things he said, of which he might have gotten from other people and the Bible, should still be used and in no way should be thrown out.  It is what God has shown to me.  

So God has been leading me to acknowledge what everyone has been saying here on this web site?  No doubt.  But the thing is, HE HAS LED ME HERE TO THIS GATHERING.  In this "God-forsaken place".  Why do I have total peace about being in this gathering but you cannot?  We have our own lives to live before God, and if we seperate on where God leads us, then so be it.  But it would be quite unwise to just jump out because of all those lovely adjectives that you used in your letter.  

No doubt I am seeking guidance.  Of course I am using critical thinking.  Have all the things I've been saying just utterly foolish and ungodly?  

THE THING IS: IF GOD WANTS ME TO MOVE SOMEWHERE ELSE, I WILL GO RIGHT NOW.  IF HE WANTS ME TO MOVE TO THE BAPTIST CHURCH DOWN THE STREET, THEN SO BE IT.  THE QUESTION IS NOT WHETHER I AM WILLING OR NOT, BUT WHERE GOD HAS CALLED ME.  

To some, this is a den of demons.  To others, it is a corrupt, god-forsaken cult.  But to me, it is the Lord's house.  And every time I go there, He speaks to me.

And you might say, Luke, you're being decieved.  I know where I stand, and it is on the foundation of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.  And frankly, you can say anything you would like, but until I lose God's peace at the place where I am at, I am not going anywhere.  I thank you for respecting my ability to get God's mind.

I am very happy right now.  I have total peace in what the Lord is doing.  Maybe some others should too.

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson

Luke,
I appreciate your sincerity and the stand you are taking very much. May I suggest  if you haven't done so already, that you read the thread called "Assembly History" by the Irons. I would also recommend the thread about assembly history that other people have started. I think it is incumbant on you to know the beginnings of "this ministry", which after all is what you are involved with. I am gratified to see what a serious young man you are. I have no doubt that God will lead you.
Guest

I would like to repeat my offer to send anybody an analysis of Robert Lifton's 8 criteria of a cult and how it relates to the Assemblies.  Decide for yourself.  I would be more than willing to keep your identity in confidence if you don't want others to know that you're being sent this material.  The document is about 12 pages long.  If the Assemblies truly do share common ground and practices as other acknowledged cults, wouldn't you like to know?

Please contact me if you're interested.

Brian Steele
dirtsqueezer@hotmail.com

Dear Brian

Your analysis is going to be posted on the main webpage soon.  Of course, that doesn't mean that people can't get it from you,  :) :)

Brent

Luke:

I appreciate your sincerity.  That is one of the refreshing things about youth.  Isn't it interesting that our Lord said we would need to become like children (I am not referring to you as a child - young adults, generally still hold childlike qualities-a good thing) to enter into the Kingdom?  

However, your warning me about my statements regarding George.  The Lord Jesus said some pretty harsh things about the pharisees, didn't he.  He called them hypocrites, fools, blind guides, serpents, vipers.  How did Paul counsel the church in Corinth, (1Cor 5:11-13) "11  But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12  For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13  But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person."

Paul called a brother  in George's condition "that wicked person".  He is simply calling a spade a spade.  I am sorry if it offends.  I am not trying to offend.  I am trying (like what Rick Ross did for Brian Steele) to present you simply with the facts in order for you to think through clearly your decisions.  

I understand I will stand for what I say.  You aren't even aware that what you stated there  is an assembly tactic to put the burden back on me for the truth I am giving you, rather than for you to look at the information I am presenting undistracted.  These accusations against George, yes God knows they are truthful, are you questioning as to the veracity of the accusations?  I am not being "hasty".  George has been allowed to deceive hundreds (if not thousands) for 30 years.  This is not "hasty", this is God patiently waiting on George to repent.  He has given this man plenty of time.  This is God's judgement on the man and his ministry.  

Why did Jesus warn us of false prophets?  He did that, so when they came (and he said they would) we would be able to know them.  It is by their fruit that you will know them, that is what we are to judge.  And yes, we are to judge their fruit.  It is not a lack of compassion I have, in fact it is the compassion I have for my brothers and sisters that keeps me involved here.  I am nothing.  Believe me, I am not the person to come to, to find out all the doctrine that is wrong with what George has taught.  I have stated that over and over in my posts.  Get with men who have been trained in seminary.  I don't think I am anything.  But just as when God told Jonah to go to Ninevah and tell them to repent, that is what I am doing.  I am obeying God in my involvement here.

If you don't know what is false and what is "good" (as you put it) how will you know what to keep and what to throw out?  Scripture is not to be of any private interpretation (see 2 Peter 1:20.)  

We all at one time had "total peace" about being involved in this gathering.  Why, you ask, do I not have peace about men and women being involved in this place?  You (I believe I am correct in saying this, correct me if I am wrong) do not have a wife and children yet.  Although the teaching is dangerous for single men and women, I believe it is EXTREMELY dangerous for married men and women and their children.  Talk with numerous individuals in this situation who have left.  I know the fruit in my own family.  AWFUL!  Thank God, He is redeeming our lives and repairing the damage.  Of course I leave you in God's hands to make the decision you feel is right.  I'm just shocked that with the MASSIVE amounts of information presented thus far, anyone in their right mind would stick around.

Why don't you take Brian up on his offer of his analysis of Robert Lifton's 8 criteria of a cult and how it relates to the assembly?  Just because you don't see the correlation yet, I hope you don't have to wait 10 years, with a wife and children to see what those of us who have come out have seen.

Try going to other churches.  Get in a bible study there and see what the doctrinal differances are.  If you don't have all the information how can you make an informed decision?

Kimberley

Dear Kimberly,

No doubt that George has done some very wicked things.  We are getting off on the right foot.  I know that Jesus called different people things to yield a response in them.  Brent has told me that.  John Malone has told me that.  That is not what I am saying though.  I am not saying that George is innocent or should be allowed to preach.  I am not saying that he isn't wicked or that it is a light thing of what he has done over the years.  

But especially on the point of "false teacher".  Yes, he might have said some things that I and others have totally unagreement with.  But I don't believe he was a false teacher, because he went along with the word of God.  And that is one good thing that he has continued to drive home whenever he spoke.  TO READ GOD'S WORD.  To label people a false teacher is very serious.

I am not offended by what you are saying.  Far from it.  But you say that you are simply just presenting the facts and letting me decide accordingly.  Please read your post again.  Read the one before that.  You have said that it is "wicked from the root."  That "God is not in this place."  So if you are just presenting the facts...why does it seem like you are trying to heartily convince me to leave?

I IN NO WAY AM TRYING TO USE "ASSEMBLY TACTICS".  I AM NOT TRYING TO PUT BLAME BACK ON YOU.  IN NO WAY.  I AM VERY AWARE OF WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING AND HAVE READING THIS WEBSITE INSIDE AND OUT.  I HAVE READ BOOKS AND PAMPHLETS AND ALL KINDS OF DIFFERENT INFO.  I AM NOT TALKING OUT OF IGNORANCE HERE, MA'AM.  

The point of my writing is not to put blame back on you.  I just want to remind you of your responsibility in what you are saying.  

I am just saying that I don't think "false teacher" is right.  Do you know of examples of where Geoge said things totally contradictary to the Bible?  I don't want personal differences, just things where what he says totally interferes with the work of God in your life and in others?

I know that he was exclusive.  Very wrong for him to do.  I know he was proud and overbearing.  Very wrong.  

But you're saying that he is a false teacher and a false prophet.  So what did he say that contradicted the Bible?  Did he say that Christ never died on the cross?  Did he say that there is no such thing as the Trinity?  Did he say there is no God?  Did he say we don't have to confess our sins?  Did he say that you can lose your salvation?  Did he say that Jesus Christ was only a prophet?  Did he say that only Jews have the opportunity to come to God?  Did he say that God is dead?  What has he been saying that was against the Bible?  I have never heard him say anything that I just listed but if you have or you have any more things, I would like to know.

Do you think I am just sitting around writting on this website with out any insight at all?  If I didn't, I would go to a different web site, such as ignorance-is-bliss.com.  (just made that up).  But, ma'am, I have been reading my Bible every day and have been consulting other people about what they think about certain things that George has said over the years.  No, I am not brainwashed or a "slave to assembly tactics".  You are getting the wrong idea about me.  

But I want to say, that one day, I would like to meet many of you.  Face to face.  Where we can get to know each other and talk about these things.  The web site seems cold and the written word sometimes conveys wrong feelings and emotions.  

I thank you for your compassion and love.  But I want you to know that I am walking with the Lord and if he wants me to move to the church down the street, or to your church, or to a church in northern Thailand, I will move there.  I will not just stamp my feet, and say,"No, Lord, I am staying here!"  I am willing for whatever.  This is not a topic worth discussing.

As soon as we establish whether George is a "false teacher" or not, then we can talk about whether it is a dangerous place for everyone to be here.  I have talked to people.  Married people.  Single people.  But you are blaming the teachings of George and the assembly for the problems in your family.  What did he teach that was utterly wrong?  Think about it.  You could be in the Baptist Church, the Methodist Church, the nondenominational church, in fact, you could be in the statistically most holiest gathering in the U.S.  But what makes a person right before God, is having a personal relationship with Him, confessing sins and many more things.  I don't know all the details about your family, and I am not acting as if I do.  I would like to see your reasoning behind this argument.

I see that all the people that went to another church must be in their right mind and those sticking around must not be.  Or is that just the impression I get from paragraph seven?

I will never have all the information.  It is just not humanly possible.  And also, I can't be sure if what you are saying is absolutely sure.  And I am not sitting around just taking your word for it, just like I didn't take George's word for it.

God doesn't move by majority vote and therefore until he shows me to get going, I guess I will just have to be one of those "wrong-minded" individuals and stick around.  

I want to thank you for your time and may God bless you.  Maybe some day, we can meet on different terms.

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson  

Dear Luke

I'm sure Kimberley will answer as well.

The most recent example I know of is where george taught that man was created on the seventh day.  He did this several times, and was quite emphatic about it.  This is contradictory to the Bible.

The most serious example that I know of is George's teaching on the inheritance.  His doctrine creates a marriage of Grace and a merit based system of salvation.  This is known as the Galatian Heresy.  Christ plus something.  In  George's case it was Christ plus obedience, yielding, the heavenly vision, being trained, being faithful, etc.

In other words, everyone understood that if they wanted to "get on with the Lord," and "Not miss out on God's best,"  it meant living in a training home and submitting to the leadership, attending meetings etc.  

I know, it was almost never said, "In order to Inherit God's best, you must live in a training home."  However, I guarantee it was taught, by suggestion, unclear ministry, George's books, and most importantly, by practice and example.

Also, George clearly taught a division in the Body of Christ.  There were the overcomers, and then those "merely saved."  In practice, he taught that the Assemblies were exclusive and superior to other churches.  The sole exception to this was when he mentioned churches that were long gone, and how great they were.  Certainly there was no church around as good as the Assembly in this century, only in the last.

As has been stated ad nauseum,  the main problem with the Assembly is practice, not doctrine.  Nevertheless, there is plenty of false doctrine, and a false teacher to go with it.

Brent

Brent et al,

I can concur with your Galatian heresy claim.  I lived in St. Louis and was involved in the work there for 11 years. From 1984-1994.  I will not bore you with all the details but I will wholeheartedly agree with the mixing of law and grace. With a teaching that put you on a treadmill to be acceptable in God's eyes by what you do and not by your identity in Christ.  I lived in training homes, was sent to Jersualem (I mean Fullerton) to be trained in 1986-1987 at Dan Notti's home. I came back and lived in a training home and was involved in the campus work at UMSL for a few years.  I started to see the reality of the New Covenant for the first time in my life in late '93 through a Bible teacher/counselor/author named Bob George (He wrote Classic Christianity) My eyes were opened to my total forgiveness as a believer and Christs unconditional acceptance of me.  I was so excited I began to share these things with the saints in St. Louis.  I was from the get-go met with extreme resistance and harassment. I was told that I could not share these things with the saints in the ministry. Then, I was told by the leadership there (not by Geroge) that I could not share these things even in private conversations with the saints. That is when I knew it was time for me to go. "Is it better to obey God or men". About 1 month after I left, I attended a volleyball fellowship the saints were having as an outreach. To my surprise I was surrounded by the leadership. They said: What are you doing here Vince?  I was very naive and said, honestly, "I was here to say Hi to the saints".  They told me I had to leave because I had unresolved issues in my life and could not be around the saints until I met with the leadership first. I knew this would be a Royal BBQ, so I never did.  That was my last corporate contact with the saints. People I spent 4-5 days/week with for 11 years.  Needless to say, I was hurt and offended. I am past it now. I only share it to respond to the question- What is not biblical about what Geroge taught. This is another testimony and witness in the real world of the effects of George Geftakys Christianity. God Bless- if anyone wants to know more, write me and I will be glad to clarify more of what Bob George's ministry taught me and how my eyes were opened. VPG

Dear Vince,

First of all, I want to thank you for being a close friend to me for a long time.  I remember the days when you stayed in our home, and I had a lot of fun.  

Just one thing.  Didn't George teach that you had to confess your sins daily?  Is that what you disagreed with?  

I am just wondering, why am I still here at my gathering?  Or at any gathering?  Why don't I just pack my bags and move to Las Vegas, and live in sin and squalor for the rest of my days, but be totally confident that my sins are forgiven?  Would I still be rewarded?  Would God say,"Well done, my good and faithful servant?"  There is no point to living a holy life.  I am just as bad as the athiest who doesn't believe in God.

Please clarify at your disposal.  Thank you.

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson

LUKE, YOUR MOTHER WILL NOT LET YOU MOVE TO LAS VEGAS! I'M CALLING HER RIGHT NOW. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

EVERYTHING IS SO UNFAIR!!

Ha! My mom let me go to Vegas this summer  ;D

granted, she didnt exactly know all the details of us driving to california, but whatever  ;)

Luke,

That has been the problem from the get go. I have been misquoted on what I do believe. I do not teach "don't confess your sins". I have been brandished with this since I left. You obviously have followed in this thinking. I do not want to monopolize this post with this doctrinal issue, but Mark I thank you for your last posting.
Suffice it to say We are not forgiven because we confess our sins. We are forgiven because of Christ's finished work. I now walk in forgivness. I am forgiven. This is not, is not, is not, is not to say "don't confess your sins".  The question is: How many times does God forgive a believer. Over and over and over or when we come to faith.  Eph 1:7 In Him we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins".  We are to forgive others, even as Christ forgave us. Notice the tense of the verse- forgave.
Like I said, this is really for another post. I only wanted to share it in light of how everything unraveled in my assembly experience as a result. Many I am sure will disagree with me. That is okay and healthy. I do not believe many will brandish me a heretic and refuse me from talking to Christians. This is the difference.  I will be glad to have this discussion though. I just did not think this was the right context. You were asking about where the Geftakys teaching was off base and unbiblical. I was responding with a concrete example of what I consider spiritual abuse.  Thanks Luke,  VPG

This is a redu of the last posting that was botched.
I have always heard GG preach about how salvation was "Christ plus nothing".
As far as the believer's inheritance, scripture makes a difference between children and sons.  A child wouldn't receive an inheritance, only a son would.  There isn't any striving involved to become a son, it's the natural process of growing. But not all Christians grow or continue to walk the path.  
I'm not saying that these ideas didn't become legalistic to the point where no one but a chosen few would be "entering in" , but to say that what he preached was heretical? I don't think so.  (except the 7th day creation bit)

Dear Luke:

I was going to respond to your first post to me and then I came across this post.  I will say for now, that both Brent and Vinnie did a very good job of responding to the false teaching/false prophet question, and if I feel so led, I will add at a later time additional comments.

However, in response to what you have just stated, this actually is quintessential "assembly" gobbledegook (sp? ;))  And you don't even realize it!  To think that there is only one extreme; either I am living a holy life i.e. the way the assembly tells me to live, or I am in living in complete debauchery is ludicrous!  You don't need the assembly (or it's teaching on holiness) to keep you from living a sinful life.   Living in the liberality that is apart from "the law" and all about "grace" enables the believer to walk with Christ in true freedom!  Christ is the one who "constrains" me.  I do not indulge in a completely sinfilled life just because I walk away from the "assembly".   You don't have to be "accountable" to other believers in order to live a holy life.   Christ is the one who motivates you to live a holy life.  HE DOES IT!  I get out of the way and let HIM live my life.  I don't have to have a brother or sister "entreat" me how to live holy.  I don't have to be in a training home to fabricate situations that teach me how to live holy.  Just by trusting in Christ and His work on the cross, he will perfect that which concerns me, drawing me closer to Him, sanctifying me, cleansing me, washing me.  Not because I AM DOING ANYTHING, but simply trusting in HIM and HIS WORK.  THIS IS FAITH AND GRACE ALONE!

I can't even convey what I want through the written word.  It is sooooooooo difficult.  My heart breaks for the bondage that is "the assembly".  I lived it for 15 years.  It didn't produce the fruit of the spirit.  It produced depression, bondage and a lack of fruit in my family.  What I have experienced since being away from the assembly and it's teachings is not a release to sin, but a freedom that is producing the fruit of the spirit and a closer walk with Christ (better felt than telt)

More later.

Dear Moonflower

I must disagree with you.  George said, "Christ plus nothing," in one breath, then in the next, "so many of God's people settle for mere salvation!?!" ???

Furthermore, the bible makes no distinction about Christians who don't follow the path and remain children, etc.

In the book of Galatians, Paul addresses the legalists, who taught that Salvation began with faith, (Christ alone) but continued(to higher life, perfection, sanctification) through keeping the law.

Paul said to these poor bewitched, joyless, unfruitful brethren,  "...concerning whom again I am striving with intense effort and anguish until Christ be outwardly expressed in you."  Gal 4:19

They thought they were getting perfected, and even more holy by their legalism, (Faith plus obedience to the law) but Paul said they had no outward manifestation of Christ!  They had entered a second childhood.  He is clear, that at the beginning, before they were bewitched, they were doing just fine.

George's theology is Galatianism.  Other Christians=merely saved   Good, faithful Assembly member=trained to be sons of the house.

Also, here is another fallacy.  George teaches that the House of God is the Schoolroom of the believer.  Christ + Assembly equals growth and godliness.  There ya go!

I can go on for pages and pages, quoting George's literature ad nauseum.  In fact I have done this and will send you stuff if you want.

On the main webpage, check out the former practice section and there is an article there.

Brent

Andrea,
Please send us the email.
Pat

Pat,
I did, but I will send it to the email that you have listed here.
Andrea

I moved my large post to a different thread.

REPLY TO B. Tr0ckman:

So what you are saying is that GG made his own laws that, if they could be followed, would get you the inheritance (or get you the money  ;) ) bad joke. He had a lot of people convinced of that, too. But when he preached "mere salvation" I took it to mean Christians who are not walking in the spirit, they are living like they did before they got saved. They know of Christ's death, but not His life.  Are you sure you aren't a Calvinist?  ;D  
I know that GG didn't live what he preached and really deserves the emmy of emmys, but I never heard him preach heaven by works.  

Pat,
so did you get the email, and did you get it twice?
Andrea

ps.sorry I guess I should pm this next time

Dear Andrea

Your last post, the long one, is absolutely right on and excellent.  Dear sister, your eyes are open!  Praise God.

Dear moonflower:

The Judaizers of Galatia at least used the Old Testament Law to lend crediblility to their heresy.  George used his own half-baked, borrowed and stolen, Heavenly Vision.  The law he would have us follow is far worse than the law of Moses, but the end result is the same:

Galatians 5:  You have fallen from Grace!!

I am not a Calvinist, but you may be a Galatian and not even realize it!  I certainly was.

Ironically, what helped me in seeing this was listening to a 5-pointer named Sinclair Ferguson, teaching on the Morrow controversy, which was....the problem of mixing Grace and works!

5 Pointers can preach the Grace of God better than anyone.  I am a 3.5 pointer.  I am NOT a Geftakysite.  There is a reason the evangelical world does not believe what was "revealed" to Mr. Geftakys.  The Bible does not teach it.

Now, here is the difficulty.  Not everything George said was bad, or wrong.
A little leaven leavens the whole lump.  I submit that in time, even the good things he taught were confused and perverted by his false doctrine.

Salvation is not "mere."  The death, burial and ressurection of the Lord Jesus Christ is the wonder of wonders, the great mystery of God.  Nothing could be more profound.  How can someone washed in His blood, and saved from the penalty of sin, and the wrath to come be called "merely saved?"

If they are living in sin, let's call it that.  However, George was referring to Christians who were not living in sin, but who didn't have the Heavenly Vision, and didn't go to the Assembly when he said "merely saved."

Again, it's all in his books.  Ever read one?

Brent

While I'm on the topic, here is something I dug up from a previous post on this thread:

"I put my faith in God, and the leaders that He chooses."  by Luke Robinson.

This is a great example of George's false teaching about church government.  Where does it ever say to put faith in men?

Let God be true and every man a liar!  Romans 3

Putting faith in men, especially if you give these men control over your life, is Idolatry!
That's how the whole scam is foisted.  Submission to leaders becomes a virtue, even when the leaders are debauched, immoral men!

Have faith in God alone, test all things, do not believe every spirit, because many false prophets have gone into the world.

Brent

Here is one article, there are others:


http://geftakysassembly.com/Geftakys.htm (http://geftakysassembly.com/Geftakys.htm)

Brent

Brent,

George not only plagiarized Lang, Panton, Govett, Dillow, Chitwood, et. al....But, he did a lousy job teaching these great authors.

The overcomers promises all come down "to running the race" - with and by grace - to win the prize - by grace...All the conditional promises and rewards have to do with proximity to Christ not inclusion/exclusion.

Like my days as a little kid playing ball was all for my Dad's commendation "Good Job, Chuck...Way to Go!"  So, now the race is "to lay hold of that for which Christ laid hold of me" to be glorified with Him and hear "Well done, Chuck!  You're a good and faithful servant."  Of course, I'm right with God and I've got God's grace - Just like the boy has the bat and ball.  Now I want to swing and hit the ball and show my Dad above that I can employ his Grace.  It's all Grace, it's all Him.

Oh, Lord, I didn't do anything it WAS ALL BY YOUR GRACE!

George distorted some wonderful writings...I can see something things are ready to go under the ban, that really shouldn't go there.

Sometime, Brent, when I come to SLO...I would love to debate you on these issues.  Perhaps, our only audience would be our wives, cause like I said yesterday the "teaching" itself doesn't seem to change the result one way or another for most people.  

By the way, yesterday you were a 3.7 point Calvanist...Now you're a 3.5 point Calvanist today...Did our conversation back you off of 2/10 of a percent? :)

This is exactly what I believe. It is what I thought that GG preached.

Hi chuck

I am an unstable man!  My Calvinmeter fluctuates!  Today I am a 3.5, but i could go all the way to 3.675 by morning!

I would love to debate sometime on these things.  Seeing as how you read my book, and know where I am coming from, I think it would be great.

I suggest using my yacht as the debate forum,  beam reaching at 5 or 6 knots, on a smooth sea.  that's the proper place to discuss topics of that nature.

Brent

BTW, I am quite serious.

Dear Moonflower

I am glad that you may believe "this" but it is NOT what George preached.  Neither is it what most of the Assembly practiced.

Good for you, nevertheless.

Brent

Um, perhaps he means not faith in them as in for eternal salvation or as in trusting for every need or as in for every decision in life, but to trust them as the guides they should be, that God gives to us, right?

I'd still like an answer to my question a long, long ago in a thread far away,

"Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. "

In an earlier post you said that "obey" means to be persuaded by.  Ok, I looked it up and sure enough.  But there is more to the verse.  "Obey...and submit yourselves..."  I looked that one up too, but I want to hear your take on it.  (And while your at it, how bout all those verses about elders in my story that Rod brought up.)

Arthur

The quotes that Brent has from George, that I saw at the link he provided, are twisted Kingdom teachings and applications...My point - don't throw the baby out with the bathwater....However, since the bathwater was killing people in the assembly by the toxic droppings of the baby (twisted applications...usurping grace)...Perhaps, we need to quarantine the baby, too (put the Kingdom teachings under a quisi-ban).  But, that's too bad.  

Moreover, most ex-assembly folk will be attending a one man clerical pastor church in a few years; where 90% of the folks are primarily observers...with lots of denominational stuff...That too is perhaps a necessary thing as well since the "Brethren" example they had was so distorted.  But, again, this is sad to me.

I never was in the assembly and am leading a very simple,  functional, non-legalistic/non-Galatian home church...Like the assembly in many ways without the rigorous structure, and without having a monster...tons of liberty and freedom, sweet and we KNOW we're not God's "special people" on planet earth.  But, we sure like the simplicity and purity of a little gathering where everyone participates and no one is anonymous.

However, lots of ex-assembly folk will probably need some anonymity for a while - to get lost in the crowd.  Some will never want to see a "Brethren" type church again...Sad, but I totally understand.

Hey Brent...

A debate would be great!   I'd love it...You know, I'd enter as a learner.  

I couldn't lose...Cause if you were right and I'm wrong - I win!  cause I'd learn something about the Lord and His ways that makes what is already a wonderful, incredible thing even more wonderful, incredible and now marvelous!

If I'm right and you're wrong...Well, hopefully you'll put up a couple of decent arguments that will cause me to delve more deeply into these marvels of God's ways concerning His mysterious Kingdom...And since the Lord says seek first His Kingdom and His righteousness, which is what this debate is all about....Getting a better map on finding His Kingdom way would be a super benefit.

I lose - I win...I win - I win.  I like that kind of deal.

First question - Is it possible you could be wrong?  My answer to that question is:  Yes!  I could be wrong, you could be wrong, or we both could be wrong.

What's your answer to that question?

Last - Yep, a sailboat would be a perfect setting for such a debate!

And, since you're not in the assembly anymore, I'll bring the red wine...You know you shouldn't just have water exclusively, you should really have a little wine for your stomach (I knew all my scripture memorization was going to come in handy)  ;)

Dear Chuck

I drink beer, and only rarely red wine, but Suzie loves a good Zinfandel (not white zin, real zin!)

I guarantee that I am "wrong."  I don't pretend to understand it all, but this one thing,

Keep your eyes on Christ.  And if in anything we disagree, He will make even that known to us!

Seekeing the kingdom:  the shortest distance is to follow Jesus, the king.  Can't miss!

I took the long way, followed the House of God and its goverment, pattern etc.

May the Lord give me balance and clarity!

Brent

This thread began with some advice about whether a person should flee the assembly or not.  

For me, that issue reached its critical mass during the summer of 2000.  I realized that even though I might be able to safely walk the minefield of assembly abuses and errors, my infant children might not.  It became clear that I had to take my "little flock" out into greener pastures.

Two weeks ago, our pastor (Tom Ferrell, Atascadero Bible Church) addressed the congregation about the confirmation of some elders.  He read from Titus.  My wife very brilliantly remarked that this is exactly appropriate regarding the assembly.  I challenge all to read the following.  What does the Word of God say about assembly leadership?  Let that guide your decision to stay or leave (or to advise others to stay or leave).

For those still clinging to the assembly (and I spoke with a brother in this group just yesterday): Read Titus 1:5-16.  This is a list of requirements for elders.  One need not progress beyond THE FIRST REQUIREMENT (vs. 6) to realize that the assembly leaders are disqualified.  In a host of ways they are not "blameless."  There are many others verses here that touch on their disapprobation.  Let the first suffice.

5: For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
6: If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
7: For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
8: But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
9: Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
10: For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
11: Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
12: One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are always liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
13: This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
14: Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
15: Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
16: They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

In light of that, consider the following:

It is clear from Scripture that Christians are to worship with others.  It is also clear that the church is to be governed and led.  If the men of the assembly are unfit (and I think Titus is the end of that debate) then it is a matter of logic that God's people need to flee the assembly.

(Sidebar: I disagree with Brent about his 6 Weeks Off call, if that means 6 Weeks away from church.  I'd say 6 Weeks away from the assembly...I'd also support 6 decades...When my wife and I left, we tried to treat it like honeymoon time with God...We Looked at how various Christians worship.  My wife and I asked a Christian lady for a list of 10 Bible-based churches and then visited them all.  Some places were weird for us...But most were great.)  

A friend yesterday asked me if God could "raise up something new" in SLO.  Of course.  He could also astralproject Saddam Hussein to Venus or cause my freshmen to like John Milton.  It's axiomatic that God can do as He chooses.  

But here we're dealing in hypotheticals.  God has shown the current assembly leaders to be unfit.  There might be leaders in the future who are fit.  If such a day ever dawns, then perhaps saints may consider returning to assemblies.  I might consider returning.

But that seems to be a distant hope.  It seems silly to trade the plain teaching of the Bible for a "maybe."

As I am prone to error, I submit the preceeding for comments.  I would especially like to hear from those who think saints should stay in their various assemblies.

Aaron Cantrell



 

1 John 3:24
And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us

Proverbs 20:1
Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Galations 6:7
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

He abides in us, wine is a mocker, and God is not mocked. Hmm...

Retread:

For those of us who are willing to admit we are a little dense, what is your point?

Dear retread

I assume that your last post was meant to poke fun?

Aaron:

six weeks off, clearly means six weeks away from the Assembly, and everything in its sphere.

Your last post was quite excellent,  and I agree with it.  In fact, I find it very difficult to disagree with.

The only thing I would add, is that after Suzie and I left, remember how you pleaded with me to stay and "preach Christ?"  It took you a little time to get things figured out.  About a month to six weeks to be precise....these folks will get it, soon enough, execpt for the ones who are proud and who suppress the truth.

Brent

Point? You mean I have to have a point. ;D  All I was doing, was quoting three entirely different scripture verses saying that:

1) Wine is a mocker.
2) God is not mocked.
3) God lives in is.

The missing step from here being that how could we allow wine to be in us if God lives in us (as God is not mocked).  This was intended as a "cute" response to Chuck's "cute" reason of "a little wine for the stomach".
Oh, do I have to admit this. Err, Umm. Okay, Okay, I was poking fun of the "little wine for the stomach" reason.  Brent, you should know that I am not above poking a little fun here and there. :o Do I need to repent? ;) ;D

Dear retread

If you continue in this manner, I will demote you.  You will no longer be a full-time poster!  ;) ;) ;D >:( >:( :o :o 8) 8) ;) ;) ;) ;)

I don't have the time for it, but there are many verses that describe the proper use of wine, and it isn't only for the stomach!  Your division of the word of God in your post was not quite a straight line.  Jesus made great wine for His first miracle, and He was perfectly OK with people drinking it!

There is also a verse that mentions the proper use of strong drink, and it is for those who mourn.

If I debate Chuck, he will probably start drinking scotch, straight up, because he will soon mourn the error of his ways.
 ;)

The proper use of beer is to drink it sparingly, no more than one per day, (for me).  An unpasteurized beer, like Newcastle, is best.  It should be imbibed, on the boat, on a comfortable reach, with the auto-pilot steering, and a warm breeze blowing across the beam.

That is the proper use of beer, my friends.

Now, just to make it clear,  Drunkeness is sin.  It is not what goes in to a man that defiles him, but what comes out of his heart.  Drunkeness is a heart problem.  I do not get drunk, ever.

Brent

I'll drink to that!  ;D ;D ;D

Is it possible the disciples had a hard time waking up in the garden because they had too much wine with their dinner?

(just something I've always wondered about)

Maybe that explains why it was always difficult to stay awake for sunday morning ministry!!!!!!  It's SCRIPTURAL to snooze after the Lord's supper!!!!!!!!!!

Doctor Brent Tr0ckman:

This letter is to inform you that:

It is alright to fall asleep before the Sunday
afternoon meeting since it is all rehash anyway.

It is also medically advisable to drink scotch
straight up considering the "stuff" going on.
Timothy needed wine for his stomach - but
Hoo boy, this stuff requires the medication
for those that mourn. Selah.

R. Kristavcnik

Thanks Rudy

I myself, do not drink scotch, or smoke cigars.  but if I did, I would.  But I have no desire to.

I do have a couple friends who do the former, and it doesn't bother me, but I don't know how I could drink a glass of single malt, and not feel it.  I guess you get used to it, but I really don't want to!

The cigar thing makes no sense at all to me.  A pipe has been tempting, but I have never done so, and probably won't.

So, I'm stuck with beer and fresh, hand caught(mine) lobster.
I do often BBQ the lobster with a champaign/butter sauce.  MMMMMMmmmm

Also, cooking shrimp in tequila or triple-sec is amazing!  Then, I make a sauce with 1/2 orange marmalade and 1/2 thai chili sauce, and put the shrimp inside a won-ton wrapper, topped with the sauce, and a good pinch of orange and lemon zest!

Let me tell you, it is amazing!  You don't need scotch when you cook like that!

I sail, and cook.  I also do both at the same time!

Brent

I feel totally sorry for you. The tugboat thing sounds
nice, but i'm land locked. Except for when I was in
Port Angeles, WA. The best seafood was the stuff i
got from the indians coming through - 3 lbs. salmon
for about 10 bucks.; a couple of Dungeonous crabs
for $10 and even one time got some shrimp for free.
Hey and you know what - the "fresh" salmon i bought
at Albertson's - i got food poisoning of of that "stuff".
Love "Rockzillas" though w/ some turf.

Dear Rudy

If you call a sailboat a.....gasp.....tugboat again, I'll boot you right off this forum!

Do you hear me!  Sit up here's where I can see you.  I'm talking to all of you, see?  We've never had that in this place before, and we're not going to start now.

If you hear your brethren talking like Rudy here, please help them to stop it. AMEN?

A sailboat is NOT a tugboat.  That's what the world calls it, but that's not what we stand for in this place. AMEN?

editor...servant of the GM.  GM appointed and clothed in the GM's authority.

Wow,

The head cheese is hyper-sensitive, eh  ::)

Your tugboat does have a motor in it if the
winds fail doesn't it. If it does, and I suspect
it does, it doesn't qualify as a true sailing vessel.
Sorry, but the lobster bisque and such couldn't
be as good as what the indians dropped off
for me at my house, eh  ;D

Besides, I'm beyond "help"  :D

Well,this is my final posting after stiring up what seems like a hornets nest of heartache and selfjustification. I know from experience that written communicatin can land you in a whole lot of trouble with the recipients depending upon their relationship with you(or lack of one). I do know that Paul teaches us that, "The letter kills but its the Spirit that gives life." I sense many are using God`s word to beat a brother or sister over the head and/or justify themselves. I am gratefull to those of you who have advised me regarding my friends joining an "Assembly". I commend you all unto Him who is able to keep you from falling and present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy. To the only wise God,our Savior, be glory and majesty,dominion and power, now and forever. Amen!

Oh yes,

You have definitely been buried in the chatter.
As far as being involved or getting someone else involved:

The facts are that the geftakys ministry is self-serving.

Dear HH,

If the leader in the group where your friend attends is named Les Roberts, please forward my warmest greetings to him and his dear wife, Sally.  I would love to hear from them. ;D

Margaret Irons