AssemblyBoard

I wanted to start this thread for thoughts about Margaret Irons postings on ASSEMBLY HISTORY. Brent was right to lock out replies as it is an important stand-alone article.

There has long been a question as to whether this ministry began as the work of God and was led astray as George began to fall away, or whether it was George's invention from the very beginning.

I believe Margaret's testimony clearly answers that question. This "ministry" was a calculated, planned invention of George Geftakys to satisfy his ego and need to dominate and control as well as to line his pocketbook. It turned into a cottage industry that supported his entire family (we all know the sad exceptions) and select group of underlings. GEFTAKYS CULT, INC.!

It underscores why I believe the fundamental doctrines of this organization are not only flawed but deliberately designed so that a few select men can control large groups of people.

I would like to hear your thoughts and expansions.

Thanks,

Scott

I have been curious for awhile as to the orgins of GG, and what all transpired.  I would love to talk to the brethern at that church to ask them what they thought about this current situation with the assemblies.  Anyway, i am glad that this history was given.

Even given the orgins of how this was all started, I will still give testify to how the assembly (the meetings, the people in it, ect) have led me to my current reality with the Lord.  Although i am grieved that even I was decieved with this man (GG), I still firmly believe that the Lord used this deception of a man for His Work.

Steve and Margaret's article is excellent and it certainly has filled in many gaps in my understanding as to how the Assembly came about.

The history of the Assembly was always kept as "it's so wonderful I couldn't begin to explain it."  There was one time I remember where we met at a gym in Fullerton for a potluck (I think Valencia park, but my memory of landmarks is fading).  It was exciting as George was going to give the "history of the Assembly".  To no one's surprise, he gave a few vaugue facts and taunted the Lord's faithfulness in raising things up.

If I can give a few suggestions for this thread to keep the discusson on task:

Steve and Margaret's article does not address what George's personal motive was.  Was he intending to deceive a bunch of people so that he could start a cult and line his pockets?  Or was he really seeing himself as doing God's work through the fog of personal baggage and a warped perception of God and himself?  In other words, was he a throughly evil man or was he a deluded man?  I would tremble at trying to discuss or acertain this as God alone will judge George's motive of heart.  I would encourage the discussion not to go too far down that line.

What I think the distinction that the article makes - an excellent one - is this:  was this a work that was raised up supernaturally by God (as was always claimed) or can we look at the historical facts and see that the the church was merely a function of good connections worked by an ambitious, chararismatic leader that happened to bless people in spite of itself?

I think the historic facts clearly speak for themselves.

Thanks, Steve and Margaret!

Hi Dave, well put.  We do not know what this MAN's motives were, and need to stay away from that type of judgement

May we all learn from this history, for as it has been said time and time again, those that refuse to learn from the past are doomed to repeat it!

Lord Bless,
G

Oh man!  I wish I would have known about this sooner.   How could such a man preach from the Bible?  The two are at odds with each other.  It all becomes clear now.  
A thought came to me that maybe George was just ignorant and so didn't know that these statues were evil, or that sign.  But, he was a Christian for what, 25 years by then, as well as a preacher, and went to seminary.  He knew what he was doing.  Scary  :o




Yes, that's it.  It was never about "the work" after all. The only reason there was any blessing at all was because of God in the sincere Christians, not because of George's vision.  The latter actually being contrary to the former.  
If there was ever any movement of God it was in spite of George, not because of him or his "vision".  

kk, will do soon.  Thanks Rudy.  Man, the possibility (probability, fact?) that there were satanic influences in the assembly is a trip!   :o  But it does fit and make it all clear.

Anyone interrested in "Plymouth Bretheren" feelings about George can contact Fred Kaiser Elder while George was at Grace Bible Chapel  714 538-8418 or Max Krieger (Elder and former good friend of George) at Ave 54 bible Chapel 323 478-9881

Thanks to Steve and Margaret for their article. I have often asked the question of whether God had started the ministry in Fullerton or if George did. I recently was in contact with an Assembly member who made the statement:"Things are messed up here--the Lord may have removed his candlestick." I E-mailed back that maybe he was looking at it all wrong and that God was really PLACING a candlestick where one had not been before. A MAN had been leading the church there and not God, and God in his time was removing this person and taking over the place he should have had in the first place. I've often wondered whether God led me to the Assembly--at the time I started going to meetings I was under horrible legalistic beliefs about God and felt condemned. In this context I first attended a meeting at Pierce College which was led by George. He was teaching the Minor Prophets, and was in Hosea "Return oh backsliding Israel and I will return to you". I felt at the time God had led me to that meeting because of that one verse. But a work that God starts should not lead to further condemnation and legalism, it should lead to liberty. And I definitely was not lead into liberty, but into works of the flesh. So many warning signs were there but I chose to ignore them--or was blinded by my own ignorance. A work of God should bless the church but also be a HUGE blessing to the community around it, the poor and the suffering. The Assembly served the Assembly--at least when I was there it was totally ingrown and served itself. It's funny that the Buddha was mentioned, because I visited Georhge's house once for dinner and saw a Buddha----I thought it was on the fireplace but my memory may have failed. I also saw books on his book shelf that I was a little amazed to see.
Ever since I've left though I've always had that suspicion that God was not the author of the work, but a man was.

--Joe

Joe and others, how do you see it now?  I've been wondering the same thing.  It seemed so clear at the time, and even now the circumstances seem too arranged to be coincidence -- that God led me into the group.
Was it all in our heads?

Regarding George and his satanic bible and other books, I remember something that George said during the summer school of '99.  He was preaching and had us to turn to Acts 19.  

He read this text, And many that believed came, and confessed, and shewed their deeds. Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver.

He then told us that he was reading this very passage at a brother's meeting or something like that in his house.  He said something to the effect of, "As I was reading this passage I suddenly stopped.  The Holy Spirit convicted my heart that very moment. He said, 'Yes, that, you know that doesn't belong in your house.'  So I went upstairs and into my study.  I took that book off of the shelf, went downstairs and threw it into the fire in the presence of all that were there."

He didn't tell us what book it was.  Now we have a better idea of what that might have been.  How 'bout them apples?   Do you think after 40+ years of being a Christian, he finally repented of owning a satanic bible?
I don't know what to make of it.

Was George just a "Flim-Flam-Man" from day one?  can anyone remember a sincerely genuine moment where he behaved like Jesus would? I did notice him ask Rand Bates "if my car is too worldly?"  But I really can't recall anything else!

I think a question that people are wrestling with now is "Even though this ministry was not begun by God,  Did God lead me into it?  Did God speek to me?  Did God say "I want you to fellowship here?"  I would like to read your responses!

Ok how bout this.  Let's list it:

Is the following the fruit of a false prophet or of a saint?

1. He prayed with and for people.
2. He preached from the Bible.  Saying things such as, Jesus is Lord, we need to follow Jesus, I am a wretched man were it not for the grace of God.  
3. He went on missionary trips around the world.
4. Some people got saved through his ministry.
5. He invited people over to his home for lunch at the seminars.
6. He allowed people to stay at his home.
7...others?  u add to the list

If we didn't know anything else, we'd say that the above person is probably a godly man.  Ah, but now enter the satanic bible, adultery, money, etc. and now the list is viewed as:

1. "And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward...
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation."
Prayers just for show?

2. "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction...And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you."  
"These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage."
"Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:  The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely"
Yes, he said that it is by grace through faith, but that is just "bare bones" salvation, or mere initial salvation.  Inheritance, or full salvation, comes by obedience (more specifically, if you are going to reign with Christ then, you need to learn to submit to George now.)  

3. "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves."
Yeah, scary huh?

4.  "Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:  The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:  But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.  What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice."  
"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."
"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
The word of God stands on its own.  George just happened to be reading out of the right book.  The Holy Spirit by the word of God is who saved people, not George.

5 and 6. "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess...Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness."
Yes we ate at George's house, but was George ever there to say "hi"?  Rather his servants (those "guests" in his home) were the people who showed hospitatlity, not George.

Topsy-turvy isn't it?  The only thing I have a problem with is that for points 3 and 4, from what I remember, most of what George said was good.  How could he even say one good thing if he was so messed up?  Maybe I was messed up in my perception of what he said?  I dunno, I'd like to hear some lectures again and see if they were as good as I thought or in error and I didn't see it.  

I don't understand it, and maybe I am so far gone that I don't see it clearly--I dunno, how would I know if I was?--but I'd have to say, "Yes."  What about you?

Huh?

Just thought I'd add my 2 cents worth.  Many good questions, but as messed up as it is now, I can look back and I spent much time before I moved out of my parents home into a sisters apt. and this was 20+yrs ago.  I spent time away from mtgs. on my knees with the word of God open and the Lord gave me a specific promise.  Maybe where He lead me wasn't the best, but it was better than what I was getting at the Catholic church....nothing.  I was lost, confused, etc. and I made many dear friends over the years in many places.  I'm out now and wouldn't go back, yet I know that God used this ministry IN SPITE OF GEORGE.  Let's face it, God used Baalam's donkey!!!

After we left the Assembly in 1990, we went to Creek Park Community Church in La Mirada, CA.  There, I met a godly man who was an elder named Lenny.

Lenny had a successful manufacturing business, treated his employees well and was a POW in WWII.   You never had a short conversation with Lenny as he always had a gracious word about the how the Lord was sovereignly using you for His glory.  He was one of the most affirming and gracious man I had ever met.

I remember one of the first time I saw Lenny.  He was pushing a dust mop around the cafeteria after a Sunday night fellowship.  I watched in awe thinking "I would never see an elder in the Assembly, let alone George, pushing a mop after a fellowship."

Over the course of time, I found out that Lenny had met George.  Lenny, who is from and lives in Whitter, had talked to him before.  When I asked him how he knew George he said,  "well, a few of us from the Whittier church went over to talk to him.  We told him to get a job."

Lenny never mentioned to me the added element of George's extra-curricular activities with his Whittier neighbor.  I think that was part of Lenny's gracious character.  (Though it is possible that he just didn't know about it).

It's rather enlightening to compare the behavior of these two different elders (George and Lenny).  Lenny helped me see in the flesh that not everyone is like George.  God indeed forms those who are truly His gracious servants.

Find people who are truly godly, gracious, compassionate, and kind.  Imitate their faith.

Dear Dave

Your story of Lenny is shockingly similiar to one of my own.  

In the Assembly, you know who the leaders are the very first meeting you attend.  After every meeting they announce their names and let everyone know they are "available to pray with, or ask questions."  Also, praying for the leaders, who are mentioned by name, is always the number one prayer request for each Assembly.

In contrast, at Calvary, we didn't know who the other pastors were for over a month.
There was this one guy though, he always smiled, and made everyone feel totally welcome.  He was always carrying something, pushing a broom, helping to carry a wheelchair up the stairs, driving someone to or from the meeting, making coffee, filling water bottles, carting sound equipment, etc.

This man, Chris, was the Assistant Pastor, and I have yet to meet a person more humble, and full of joy.  As we got to know Chris, we found him to be totally transparent.  He would ask us to pray for him, and would tell us how he was struggling in some area of his life.  He always had time for us, and always, always, was praying for someone.

Chris was intrumental in getting Kirk Cesaretti out of the SLO gathering, as well as Eulaha.

It was he, that restored my trust in Christian leaders.

I am convinced that a healthy church has Lenny's and Chris's amongst the leadership/eldership.

Brent

That would be a nice find, but, I am sad to say, I am suspicious of all pastors and elders.   :'(
Heh, I take the promise John 2:24-25
"But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,  And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man. "
I wish Jesus were here on earth, I think he's about the only person I could totally trust.
I suppose you'd say to me that the life and spirit of Jesus is here on earth.  As Bonhoffer said, "The life of Jesus Christ on the earth has not ended, but is continued on in his disciples." At one time, I thought I saw that, but it turned out to be a hoax.  Could it really be so?  It would be nice.

Arther,  I do not believe God spoke to me.  I believe I was guided into fellowship by a group of people who were just  exercising the same ideation that was constantly being thrown at them.  example:  a visitor starts attending more and more meetings at the assembly.  A leading brother takes notice.  He approaches the visitor, "What would you think about "praying" about Gods will concerning your life living in a brothers house?"  "O.K. "  thinks the visitor,  "Praying" sounds pretty reasonable"  "It's not like anyone is telling me what to do with my life"  " The visitor is under the impression, "I am asking Gods to tell me"  Yet unbenown to the visitor is thta the same leading brother has an agenda,  he has gone to another individual and said, "i want you to ask that (Visitor) if he would like to move into your home!"  By the next Bible Study  the visitor is amazed at how God is leading in his life .  WoW! he exclaims "I was just praying that God would show me if it was his will that I move into a brothers house"

Never once did God speak to you while with those people?  Did he speak to you any other times?
No doubt that deceit occurred, but there were some things that could not have been arranged by the leading bro's.  
I still believe in God and in Jesus Christ.  I'm not turning from him.  Its just men that are suspect.  Jesus was the only one who always did that which pleased the Father and who died for my sins.  

Author,

Brother, not every one is George.  I pray for you that God will help you trust again.  There are good people out there.  Really.  Get involved in a small group or a men's breakfast or a Sunday school and give it time.  Stay away from controllers, but watch the habits and conducts of those who truly have a shepherds heart.

Others:

I'm still not clear on what people mean by whether or not God called you.  I have often heard Christians talk like this:

"I was riding down street and God spoke to me to go to McDonalds.  Then I go, 'Lord, I want to go to Burger King', but the Lord said, 'no McDonalds'.  So then I said, 'OK, God' and went the McDonalds and then - Praise the Lord - there was brother Mel and we had this awesome time of fellowship so I go, 'Thank you God'"

I personally never had, to my knowledge, God speak to me directly and consciously.  He never appeared physically to me.  I never received direction in a dream.  I have had impressions on my heart, but none were trustworthy (though at the time, I might have thought they were).  After all, if the person above went to Burger King, he might have found sister Susan and had an even greater time of fellowship.

Bottom line:  I came into fellowship because in my 18 year old mind, I wanted to get on with Jesus.  I wanted to be with some energetic Christians who were serious about God.  I wanted God's best.  I wanted out of my parents house and wanted to be a part of Jesus' great commission.  I thought this was what I was getting from the group so I decided to cast my lot in with them.

Over time, I grew and got some new information.  Based on this new information, I decided I did not want to be with this group anymore.

I don't know if you call this God's call, but he certainly allowed it to happen, used the experience in my growth and it helped make me the person  I am today.

As David Jeremiah said, "God's will is like the Hebrew Bible.  It only makes sense when you read it backwards."  Thus, in my opinion, God's Providential hand only makes sense when we look back on our lives and see how God used the difficult circumstances to form us -  not when we try to ascertain what to do in the future.

Can you help me understand exactly what you mean by God calling you(or not calling you) into the Assembly?  Is God's mystical calling even a something we should be seeking?  If so, how do I know when I really got it?

Thanks,

-Dave

Thank you verne, that was encouraging.  I want to be clear on one thing, should we put our trust in men?  I don't mean, put our trust in as in eternal salvation, but should we listen to men, be taught by men, follow similar practise as other men? That'd be hard for me to do.  

Yes, exactly the same for me! Except I was 19 and just moved out of the house to tranfer to Cal Poly.  I also never got this voice from heaven, I just figured this is best and this is what the Bible says and these guys are great to be with and earnestly seeking God, which is the very thing that I wanted to do.



That gives me some hope.  How long did it take before you could think normally again?  It's been almost two years now for me.


All the circumstances around meeting the group and my first few months with the group seemed to indicate that God was leading.  But these were secondary to the reasons that I listed above.

Thanks verne. I hope so too.  :'(

Concerning the comments below about God calling one
to go to McDonald's instead of Burger King I just have to say
that that would be unscriptural. He would be far more likely to call one to Wendy's because the Burgers are foursquare and not round. I thought I would just point that out.

Thanks, Joe

What about In-N-Out Burger, at least they have scripture references on their packaging:

Soda Cup: John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Shake Cup: Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Water Cup: John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Hamburger: Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Double-Double: Nahum 1:7
The LORD is good, a strong hold in the day of trouble; and he knoweth them that trust in him.

Has anybody found any others?

My name is Marcia Marinier aka MGov aka M2(MM). I have been involved with the assembly in Ottawa, Canada since January 1982.

I am thinking along these lines with regards to assembly matters.

quote--
George's life is a quintessential lie.  He postured as if he had advanced degrees and knowledge, when in fact he merely completed a four year bachelor's degree in just over 6 years.

He pretended to be a great servant of Jesus Christ, when in fact he was disciplined in several churches for adultery, prior to being led to start his "ministry."

No lie is of the truth.  We know who the father of lies is; Jesus identified him as Satan.
--end-quote

This state effected his ministry in the broad sense, ie his preaching, his counsel, his direction, his demeanor, his example. That which he preached had enough of the truth to convince us that what we were getting from George was actually 'meat'. "Like so much of what he taught, the grain of truth it sometimes contained made it doubly lethal."(quote)

quote--
The most striking example of George's demonic energy is the fact that we actually thought we were following a godly man, even Christ.  The fact is, we were deceived and God delivered us from George, even though many were not willing for it.  God did it out of mercy.
--end-quote

On January 1st, 2003 we were convinced that George's leadership was from the Lord, and then the moment after reading the letter of excommunication we were convinced otherwise. The question arises as to how much spiritual discernment do we possess after being subject to George Geftakys' ministry for the past 20+ years. I would even go so far as to say that we have grieved the Holy Spirit by subjecting ourselves to the deception of George's teaching, such that our spritual judgement is clouded. I am speaking in general terms here, because there will always be individual instances of exceptions to the rule.

George Geftakys has had his hand in the assemblies to such a degree that the testimonies have been tainted by his influence. When I was saved and came out to the meetings I knew the Lord's presence in our midst, but I cannot say that anymore. George's influence has slowly but surely lead us to the condition we are in today.

If we humbly accept the Lord's correction in our lives then He can work. Otherwise, He will have to take drastic action to bring us to our senses, OR allow us to continue in our deception.

Though many of us were 'sincerely' deceived, we still run the risk of this:
"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.' Mat 7:22-23

Lord bless,
Marcia Marinier

I found out something very interesting while reading
last night. I was reading a small book by Kenneth Wuest,
who actually has a Bible translation that is very good--
he was scholar and theologian. The book I was reading was
a Greek word study in 2 Peter.

When it speaks of the false teachers it says they will "secretly bring in damnable heresies". It was interesting because when you read that you think of some extreme heresy. But Wuest says the translation literally means they will "come up alongside the truth". In other words they will preach much of the truth, but bring in error in a "secret, covered" way. Their error will be intermingled with the truth, making it harder to discern what is really wrong. When you think of it, Paul says "from among yourselves they will arise". Now how would that be possible amongst true Christians unless it was brought in
"secretly"? At first almost unrecognizable, but then after time a full blown heresy.

George taught much of the truth. Much of what he said was "right on" according to what we all accept as Christian doctrine. That would hold you in place. "Well, George teaches the Trinity, Jesus is God, The virgin birth, etc.--he must be a true preacher of God." But what if he could bring in enough falsity and error mixed with the truth to stumble many believers? What if the enemy used him in this way?

The same passage speaks of these teachers "entrapping" people who have "just escaped the evil in the world ". It's as if he grabs them before they have truly been instructed in the ways of Grace, and deceives them with a truth that isn't quite the truth. It looks like it enough to fool a new believer, but it is mixed with error.
this is exactly what happened to me. I was saved, and really pretty stupid, saw a sign for a Bible Study and started going to Assembly meetings. I always knew inside something "wasn't quite right" and wanted to escape it, but the truth that was there held me as I fought against the error. There was just enough truth to fool me, but enough error to throw on the warning light.

Many of these teachers make themselves known fairly quickly and veer way away from the truth. Many of them
are not Christians at all. I believe George is a Christian and
is saved. But I do believe that he allowed himself to be instructed in error. He veered into the error mentioned in Galatians, "having begun in the Spirit, are you now perfected in the flesh?" And by doing so he "enslaved"  many people in his legalistic system. His "heresy" damaged many lives as is seen by the testimonies on this Bulletin Board and in other places.

And I feel when he was "excommunicated" many in the Assemblies were made to realize that what they had suspected all along was true. There WAS something wrong with the place. I think this was an Exodus of freedom for many---actually relieved that they could finally go. They had been deceived into believing the Assembly was God's "only will for them" and to leave was to disobey God. For others a deep feeling of being "ripped off" immediately set in. And for the few a feeling of  sadness that their positions of authority were now jeopardized.

And I believe that is how people could believe something was "God's will" up to the time of the "excommunication". Manipulation through deceit, and a counterfeit system that "looked" very much like what is real, but shrouding error. This system kept many in bondage even up to the very end.

What is a shame are the one's who want to continue this system. It's like someone who has been in Federal prison for twenty years. They get out and don't know what to do. They are so used to prison life they almost prefer it. They are "taken care of", don't have to think for themselves, and are slaves to the system. Many of them commit crimes right away so they can return. Inside they feel "safe" and can be heads of gangs and have some authority. They actually prefer the "cell" to the freedom "outside". And such are those who seek to continue a system that is filled with legalism and control. Thank God for what he has done in revealing the Assembly for what it really is.

-Joe

Joe,

An excellent post about error being intermingled with the truth, making it harder to discern what is really wrong.

However, if one is deceived how does one 'realize' his/her condition of deception?

MM

MM---

That's a good question. I really think it takes time. The Holy Spirit is giving you warning, thus the sense that "something isn't quite right". The Spirit teaches us what is true, so as falsehood is placed before us, a red flag goes up. Many I think begin to realize the deception when they read other books from great Bible teachers(again, lead to read these books by the Spirit) and begin to see the error.

I think you will be led there if you are a true child of God because you are "hungry and thirsty" and you are just not being fed by the false teacher you are sitting under. And the more we read the Word itself and compare what we read to what's being taught, the more we have doubts. But it seems in a lot of cases there is an "event" or series of "events" that lead you to know you are being deceived.
"How can I be treated this way if this place is truly of the Lord? Did Jesus treat people this way?" Your "warning light" has gone from yellow, to orange, and now to a flashing red, and you KNOW something is wrong. Then the road to recovery begins.

Perhaps somone else has better insight on this, or can explain it better---but I feel we have ALL gone through the "wake-up" call in our lives that we indeed have been deceived, and sadder still, that we allowed ourselves to be deceived in the first place.

--Joe

I would agree with all of this...However, let me pose a question...What about the children who were forced to grow up in this envrioment and had all of the practices of the assembly engrained into their way of thinking?  They obviously had no choice in the matter, and were disciplined if they did not conform to the ways of assembly life.  

Curious to hear peoples thoughts

Uh-oh---

I don't know if you knew Steve Irons or not. But he was an elder in the Assembly for quite a while. What actually led to his leaving the Assembly dealt with his son. His son had been raised and brought up in the Assembly.

He entered College and was led to read books by the Old Puritans and others which opened his eyes to the errors in George's teachings. And of course, once you have begun to see the light it's hard to suppress it. He was eventually excommunicated. This led to Steve Irons leaving the Assembly also. I believe Steve's testimony concerning this can be found at the www.geftakysassembly.com website.

So, even though this child was brought up his whole life under George's teachings, the Holy Spirit was still able to reach him. He used books to open Lee's eyes and lead him to the real truth. "God is able" and "With God nothing is impossible"

God bless,  Joe

dear uh oh,
It is a curious thing - growing up all of your life in the assembly, because as you can probably guess, there was nothing to really compare it too, no real standard to check it against (especially since i was conditioned to read the bible with a certain taint on my perspective).  The most effective tool used to keep a 'mat kid' in line was fear.  I don't say this lightly... and i don't think it was used by all parties with intent to harm.  It was extremely potent though, as every young person who ever left the assembly - left it to 'pursue the world' or chase after their lusts.  It kept me until I began to realize that my hypocritical people-pleasing attitude had only stunted my spiritual growth, and that God would spew my luke-warm lip-service out of his mouth.  Far better to be real with God and expose myself for the sinner i am, than to strive through compliant behavior for the approval of men.  Anyway - the reason for my 'seeing the light' have alot to do with this site, and the prayers of friends.  I think, in some ways, it is almost easier to have grown up in the assemblies, because in leaving them, i'm finally making my own choice.  I don't feel a great deal of loss - because I never made a choice to become involved with them.  My parents, and those of that generation, have a far more difficult time, because they made that choice 20 or 30 years ago, and threw in their lots, the whole kit-and-kaboodle.  It is far harder to admit that you made a mistake, than to admit that your parents made one.
Joseph R

this is well put. those of us who were raised in the assembly are dealing with fundamentally different conflicts than those who joined as adults. the vast majority of people who join overly authoritative highly conforming rather isolated and elite spiritual groups (does it sound better than cults?  :)) do so in their early 20s, and do so out of a desire to establish their own identity in clearly delineated contrast to their past life (family identity, social group, etc). those of us who grew up in the assembly often do the same thing by leaving the assembly - the contrast between 'normal' and assembly life is strong enough that we are often for the first time establishing our own identity when we strike out. our parents, on the other hand, were establishing their identity when they joined up and stuck with it for decades. i did some of both - i remember several occasions when i deliberately chose the assembly as my identity from my young teen years, but when i left my decisions were in an even clearer way defining myself.

i personally was unable to leave the assembly until i had satisfied myself that it was not "God's Work on the Earth Today", which took years. my relationship with God was so fundamental to who i was as a person that i couldn't risk leaving what everyone i had listened to since childhood told me was His Will even if things around me didn't seem to add up, which lead to an enormous amount of analysis from the inside before i could get up the courage to leave. even then, i experienced frequent bouts of paralyzing fear and doubt (sudden cold sweats, nightmares) off and on for years, and with no outside support i had only courage and desperation to face them down with. but i don't regret it. there is a lot i could never have learned any other way.

brian

We hear so little about Canada (and other coutries besides the US).  Were the Canadian assemblies as deeply committed to George as the US assemblies were? :-\ Are the assemblies in Canada still intact?  (Same leadership, teachings, etc.)

Has the assembly leadership in Canada been forthright with the truth?  How are the sheep?  Any specific prayer needs?

Thanks,
After a long break from this BB - Retread

Hi Retread

Thanks for asking about the Canadian Assemblies.   :D Although we don't meet anymore as an "assembly", some of us still hang out because we're friends.  People are attending different churches, mostly big, evangelical places.  It's good.   ;D

However, the false teachings of George permeate many of us, and if you'd like to pray for us, please do!  Some of my friends are still living in fear of "missing out on the inheritance", among other mis-teachings.   :P

The leadership here has been somewhat forthright about the truth, but there are so many personal issues among the leading brothers, it kind of takes a back seat!  And then everyone stopped talking.  The cone of silence descended upon us!   :o

SO, please pray for the scattered sheep.  I think some of the teachings are still there and really preventing some from living in the grace of God.  Judgement and legalism still abound....

Thanks!
A Canadian Sister   :D

Hi Arthur,

I just returned from a 6 week, coast to coast trip, so I'm a little behind on my reading of the boards.  I read this one last night so I thought I could add a little info.

I was in the meeting at GG's house that evening.  Steve Irons, Mark Miller and Mark Campbell were there.  Mark C wasn't a leading bro in Fullerton but he was waiting in my car for a ride home and GG asked him to come in.

George read us the verse from Ephesians and then burned two books.  One was a biography of Aliester Crowley, and the other was a BIG book of poetry written by him.  (Once I heard the owner of a used book store tell GG that she would give $100 for a copy of that book.  That was in the '70's.

Aliester Crowley, (Crawley?), was the son of a Plymouth Bretheren couple that rejected Christianity and became a Devil Worshipper and attempted to be a Sorcerer.  He was arrested several times for taking prostitutes to his home and then torturing and abusing them.  He finall ended up in Sicily where he could get away with more and hobnob with his occult friends in the Golden Dawn society, or something like that.

Now, as to GG's involvement in this stuff.  GG had quite a bit of wierd literature.  I remember seeing the Tibetan books and some writings by Gurdijeff too.  The "laughing Buddha" that Margaret speaks of was, I believe, a chinese good luck god.  You have probably seen them, fat belly and both hands up in the air.

I questioned him as to the wisdom of all this.  His reply was contemptuous of me.  His spiritual stature protected him from harm by dark forces or such, and I was a bad person for objecting.

Now, I believe that he may have opened himself up to evil influences through this.  Whether or not that is true, I believe that GG is deluded.  I knew him from 1970 to 1989.  In the early days I spent a lot of time with him.  

It slowly dawned on me that he really believed that he was a specially chosen servant of God.  At first his "apostolic" authority was implied, but as the years went by he moved closer and closer to an open claim of apostolic authority.

Once he gave a seminar, the third or fourth one, on the subject of "Priests After the Order of Melchezidek".  Seems that Abraham, Moses, David, Paul and other Bible greats had a special access to God.  They had special power in prayer, and a special annointing. He claimed that God was still working in this way, implying that HE was a member of this order of priesthood.  (humble fellow, what?)

As time went by it became clear to me that 1. He was claiming to be the center of God's working in purpose in this age. 2. That he actually believed this...ie...he was deluded. :o  After I left he published a T and T article claiming "universal juristiction" and "universal authority".  This means he believes that HE is the supreme authority for the entire church!

Much of the information control practiced by the assembly was for the purpose of creating a world for GG where he and Betty could live out their delusions.

I know that GG and BG are still denying any wrong doing.  This is typical of this kind of delusion.  They cannot do bad things.  If bad things happen it is lies from the enemy or other people's fault.  In my last conversation with GG he told me that "I am not conscious of having sinned in years".  :o

Regarding his 40 year history of adultery, either that never happened, (in his mind), or he is so special that it was ok.
GG has never admitted any guilt.

In his pre-assembly days he was disciplined by his PB assembly.  The sister admitted it, but not George. This pattern continues today.  :'(

So...as to whether the assembly was  scam, or was "raised up of God" (whatever that means) and went sour...I think that a very gifted and charismatic man, who had some serious character and psychological problems, preached the Word, sometimes faithfully and sometimes in his dulusive understanding, and convinced a bunch of young, ignorant, idealistic young people to follow him.

I know, I was one of them.

God bless,

Thomas Maddux
(older and wiser)

Greetings Tom;

Thanks again for the insight you give.
There was a story going around in the past about someone who was delivered from diabolical possession. Allegedly, as George entered the house or room, there was a shriek and a cry: KEEP THAT MAN AWAY FROM ME! Anyway, as the story goes, George was used to deliver that person. A friend and I discussed that incident, and he wd. cite this as proof that George was a great servant of the Lord. I had a friend who did a lot of this kind of intervention, successfully, but unfortunately time has proven him to have been less than honest in his personal life and ministry- and this is putting it mildly. If the story is true, then I cite this as a contemporary illustration that men might cast out demons in Jesus name, yet He doesn't recognize their special claim as His servants- " I never knew you."
Also, I have heard of cases where people involved themselves in this kind of work (and never shd. have) and they themselves became oppressed.
Years ago I became curious about the Carlos Casteneda books and began reading them. It was fascinating. After an unusual experience during sleep on 2 consecutive nights I trashed them. I knew about Acts 19 but reasoned that since I had no intention of becoming a sorcerer, it wd. be alright. It wasn't. I slept peacefully immediately thereafter.

Christus ist Sieger,
Sebastian Andrew

Tom,

Glad you're back.

I remember a story George told during ministry on more than one occasion. It has been many years ago so it may be off a bit but basically it goes like this:

When George was a child he was running across a busy street. His mother was watching from an upstairs window. Little Georgie darted out into traffic and his mother saw a giant hand snatch him back out of harms way!

Boy, if that's not a sure sign that he was pre-ordained to lead the faithful through the end times, I don't what is!

George told many stories about being in Nigeria and walking next to the witches who loudly proclaim the sins of the local bystanders. Per George, they would shriek at him and tell him to get away from them.

I also remember sitting in a summer school lecture in 1983 when George told us that someday, if we were good little Geftakysites, we would wake up every morning and know that we would not sin that day. He stated that he had reached this place in his spiritual life!

I was also told flat out during a Midwest Seminar around 1983 or 1984 that George Geftakys was an apostle just the same as the original 12 in the New Testament. I was told not to spread this around to a general audience as it would cause dissension and warfare and people were not ready to hear it.

The signs have always been there.

Scott

Scott,

You wrote,
"I was also told flat out during a Midwest Seminar around 1983 or 1984 that George Geftakys was an apostle just the same as the original 12 in the New Testament. I was told not to spread this around to a general audience as it would cause dissension and warfare and people were not ready to hear it. "

Did GG himself tell you this, or did one of his sycophants do it?

Tom M.

Tom,

One of his sycophants. . . my mother! ::) ;D

Scott

I, too, remember the-little-child-in-traffic story.  He loved to tell that one. One has to ask - whose hand was it? :o

Oops!  I was thinking that you might have been told that by some worker or LB.

I wonder if Brenda was repeating what she had been told or if she was carrying what GG's behavior and teaching implied to its logical conclusion.

Tom M.

I never heard that story before: "Little Georgie and the Giant Hand". It reminds me of that Twilight Zone episode where the husband and wife awake in a little town with no people in it. They run around the town looking for people and they keep hearing "giggling", but can't figure out where it's coming from. It turns out all the trees are fake, and there is no one else in town. The episode ends with a giant hand coming down and picking them up and a voice saying "honey, put those humans down!! You're Daddy went all the way to earth to get them for you. Now come to lunch".

Chicago Sentinel, May 5, 1932.

GIANT HAND RESCUES LITTLE BOY FROM TRAFFIC

As his mother looked on in amazement,   little George"Georgie" Geftakys was lifted from harms way
Wednesday by a Giant Hand which appeared literally out of nowhere. "I couldn't believe it" said Georgie's Mom, "I had just given little Georgie his daily foot massage, when I noticed some of my money was missing. I went to the window to ask him if he'd taken it when I saw him wandering in the lanes of traffic. He was walking like he thought he was invincible or something--he always likes to dress up and pretend he's the Apostle Paul you know" she added. "I started to scream, when I saw this Giant hand coming down out of the sky and pick him up and put him on the sidewalk. It was a miracle!!!" she cried. Georgie's Uncle Fritz confirmed the story. "I had just gotten back from a trip to Mexico, when Frieda(Georgie's Mom) and I decided to try some of the mushrooms I'd gathered there. It must have been about 15 minutes later when I heard Frieda scream and I joined her at the window. Sure as day I saw that Giant hand too--it was manicured and must have been about 15 feet long. I also saw a giant frog that...." Frieda interrupted him at this point and spoke of how grateful she was that little Georgie was alive and so well cared for. "He's a little saint" she said, "how could I ever have suspected him of stealing my money?" she asked incredulously. "Surely the gods are watching out for my little Georgie" she said. "If you'd like to make a donation to show your appreciation for Georgie's miraculous experience you can place the money in the wooden chest by the front door with the slot in the top" she asked. No one other than Fritz and Frieda saw the Giant hand, but the neighbors claim that they believe, and come to listen to Georgie daily as he recites verses from the Bible while dressed in a cloak and sandals. Little Georgie refused to comment, but appears grateful just the same.

Joe,
LOL ;DLOL ;D
You are a comic genius.  Perhaps we could compile all the stories Georgie told into a book of fables or Believe-It-Or-Not Tales. Perhaps The Twilight Zone could be revitalized and you could be their screen writer.
Suggested episodes might be:
Georgie Goes to Greece Alone
Georgie's Followers Leave their Change on the Counter.
Georgie and Betty Terrorize Estes Park, Colorado
Georgie's Preaching Anesthetizes Listeners
Georgie's Seminars Leave Listeners in a Trance
Georgie's Bank Accounts Swell in Riverside

whatever 8)

Thanks Joe,
That's the hardest I've laughed in a long time.
Kevin.

Joe,
This is great stuff!
You are a talented man
Mark

 :)Dear Joseph,  I appreciate your honesty,understanding and wisdom in your letter.  I too understand the people pleasing attitude, also the fear of not doing enough or being faithful enough.  I still love the people in the Chicago assembly and you need to never forget that they will always pray for you and be there for you, as you make decisions for Christ.  I do not know what is going on there in Chicago, but I pray wisdom has been sought.  I've been to weddings involving the young people who I used to push on the playground swings between meetings and I am greatly encouraged when I see many of the old faces.  We learned much about serving God there, your parents are I'm sure proud of your abilities and talents and your decision to serve Christ as you seek His face.  This would be what any Godly parent would desire to see that their child is serving God in a real way, clean in heart and ambitions and willing to be led of God.  My heart goes out to the young people who have to deal with the facts about a man we once thought was a Godly man, a man we trusted to give us Gods leading, but you know I always thought it was a bit funny that we couldn't seek Gods will on our own.  I also want you to know that I believe you can always ask for direction and counsel of your parents.  You have special parents and they truly love you, Joseph.  The young people from the assemblies will I pray learn a big lesson to live by for the rest of their lives, never to put more trust in a man than in the God of their Salvation and to really test the scriptures as issues or concerns come before them.  My heart goes out to all in each dear gathering of Gods people and my heart has felt a great loss, not a loss of george, but the loss of family, the family of God.  george g. is not who we should be gathering around and making our lives to fit around, what made the gatherings of Gods people so special was not george it was the dear people in those places of meeting.  It is the loss of those families that is so hard to live with, and yet I pray that through the opening of different homes here in St. Louis that the families will continue to heal and communicate and serve one another and care for the family even tho not meeting in the same place.  I also pray that those choosing to meet at the same gathering place would also choose to be part of the healing process.  Each of us no matter where we are will always be a part of the family of God.  I will admit I still struggle with the ugliness of george and betty's life of deception and usage of the flock, but we must all stay close to our dear Savior who keeps us and knows our weaknesses and has the very best for us.  Brethren Pray for All of Us, we were all so close now we need to pray for the best in each of the flocks lives.  Thank you Joseph, I really appreciated your letter of honesty, and I pray you will always serve the Living Savior, oh, and by the way keep up your chess skills and always love your family and confide in them as you are led.  Love in Christ, Jean Harris from St. Louis

ROFL!   ;D  Thanks Joe, I needed that.


Hey, that sounds like a cool episode. Reminds me of a far side cartoon (the one where the aliens accidently put the human specimen in the bear specimen bottle. Hehehe:)
It also sounds like a cross between the Star Trek episodes The Squire of Gothos and The Mark of Gideon.

This reminds me of an old Mister Boffo comic strip in which the first panel shows a 200' giant terrorizing a city with the caption "TROUBLE" and the second panel shows the giant as just a puppet on the hand of a much bigger giant with the caption "SERIOUS TROUBLE".

That's also reminds me of a ST:TNG episode called Ship in a Bottle.  When Moriarty left the holodeck simulation of a holodeck, he thought he was in the real world, but really was only still in the holodeck.  The question at the end was, "What if all of this world around us is just some simulation sitting on someone's desk?"

Kinda makes you think.

Dear- oh dear me, Joe!!!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
 
   POSSIBLY THE FUNNIEST THING THAT I HAVE EVER READ

             LITTLE GEORGIE AND THE GIANT HAND

      I almost fell over laughing (literally) and each time I read the above story by Joe it got funnier and funnier!!! ;D ;D

  I'm still laughing as I type this out and can hardly see through the tears.  I agree with Pat, "Joe you are a great talent"!!
                          Mirth is like a good medicine!  Mark C.

For context sake I post my 'exit' email letter first:

Dear saints,

I was hoping for an opportunity to meet with various ones  individually, but since it will not work out for me to do so I am  sending this email to share with you my reasons for not  participating in the assembly meetings .

I still love the saints who remain dearly. I do not have any offences  to settle with anyone. And this is not about GG's sin, but about our  condition as ones who have sat under the ministry of a master  deceiver for the past 20+ years.

I am thinking along these lines with regards to assembly matters.

George's life is a quintessential lie.  He postured as if he had  advanced degrees and knowledge, when in fact he merely  completed a four year bachelor's degree in just over 6 years.
He pretended to be a great servant of Jesus Christ, when in fact he  was disciplined in several churches for adultery, prior to being led  to start his "ministry."
No lie is of the truth.  We know who the father of lies is; Jesus  identified him as Satan.

This state effected his ministry in the broad sense, ie his preaching,  his counsel, his direction, his demeanor, his example. That which  he preached had enough of the truth to convince us that what we  were getting from George was actually 'meat'. Like so much of what  he taught, the grain of truth it sometimes contained made it doubly  lethal.

The most striking example of George's demonic energy is the fact  that we actually thought we were following a godly man, even  Christ.  The fact is, we are/were deceived and God delivered us  from George, even though many are/were not willing for it.  God did  it out of mercy.

On January 1st, 2003 we were convinced of George's leadership as  being from the Lord, and then the moment after reading the letter  of excommunication we were convinced otherwise. The question  arises as to how much spiritual discernment do we possess after  being subject to George Geftakys' ministry for the past 20+ years. I  would even go so far as to say that we have grieved the Holy Spirit  by subjecting ourselves to the deception of George's teaching, such  that our spritual judgement is clouded. I am speaking in general  terms here, because there will always be individual exceptions to  the rule.

George Geftakys has had his hand in this assembly to such a  degree that the testimony has been tainted by his influence. When I  was saved and came out to the meetings I knew the Lord's  presence was here, but I cannot say that of this assembly anymore.  George's influence has slowly but surely lead us to the condition we  are in today.

If we humbly accept the Lord's correction in our lives then He can  work. Otherwise, He will have to take drastic action to bring us to  our senses, OR allow us to continue in our deception.

Though many of us were 'sincerely' deceived, we still run the risk of  this:
"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy  in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your  name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I  never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'  Mat 7:22-23

I suggest that we consider the option of taking six weeks off, or  even the more drastic action of disbanding and seeking outside  Christian counsel.

Lord bless,
Marcia

The brothers had a General brother's meeting and concluded thus:

The brothers met on Sunday afternoon, July 6th, 2003 to discuss the contents of, and our response to, the recent letter that Marcia M sent to most of the saints who gather in fellowship at our local meetings. Our conclusions as before God during that meeting are as follows:

"Let God be found true though every man be found a liar". Rm 3:3-4

The lie and deception that was George's life does not mean that God has also lied to us in light of our manner of gathering and our practice locally as a church in Ottawa.

We do not agree with Marcia that it necessarily follows that because George practiced deception that we are currently deceived in our gathering together unto the Lord or impaired in our ability to presently be led by the Holy Spirit.

We believe that the pattern for dealing with failure in a new testament church is laid out in Revelation chapters 2 and 3 regarding the seven churches of Asia. In those passages we are told that the remedy is to repent of any specific sins - not to take six weeks off or disband or seek outside counseling.

We believe that we have already taken specific steps to make the changes that we think the Lord would have us make and will continue to do so as we see the Lord leading us. We are also encouraging the Lord's people and particularly the brethren in our midst to follow the example of the Bereans in Acts to "search the scriptures daily to see if these things are so". We believe that God still can, and still is, teaching us through His word, the Bible. We believe that we are already getting regular outside perspective through the reading of godly Christian literature and books from a variety of sources as well as from individual and corporate exposure to the recorded teachings of various Christian ministries and also our normal contact with believers from other Christian fellowships. We believe that this provides us with sufficient opportunity to compare what we have believed to what others who were never associated with George's ministry are teaching.

We do not think that we have grieved away the Holy Spirit from our midst. We think that He always responds to repentance and faith and is continuing to do so. We believe that we are continuing to see the fruit of His working in our midst and that we can continue to grow in our relationship with the Lord and increase to the glory of God as we continue with Him in humility and faith in Jesus Christ.

We believe that everybody has the liberty to choose where they will gather together with other Christians without outside influence. Marcia has chosen to stop meeting with us. Although we disagree with her reasons for leaving and are saddened by her choice, it is not our desire to try to influence her to do otherwise. We trust that those who choose to continue to gather together in our midst will be afforded the same courtesy.

My question: Any comments?

"A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough". How does one remove the leaven from the dough after it has 'permeated' the whole lump?

Marcia

Marcia,
     i'm with Verne 100% on this one.  According to the burden of your heart, by all means pray for them.  But for you to pursue further dialogue with any of them presently would be fruitless at best, possibly even damaging.
     Perhaps, in time, someone of them may come to you, humbly & openly.  But don't hold your breath.  The best testimony you can have toward them now is to continue with the Lord...
In Him,
al

Hi Marcia

I don't think you should remain silent.  Tell the truth loudly, as often as you can, to anyone of them who will listen.

As we all know, by taking the "high road," as some would tell you, you give them the floor, and they are the only ones who talk and shape the perspective on things.

For example:  In the groups that still recieve GG, they are saying that there was only one incident of immorality, 15 years ago, and that George "made it right" with the sister.  Nonsense!  There were several sisters, one of the incidents is less than a year old!  However, because the likes of Mark Miller, Rod Zach and their compadres decided to "follow the burden of their heart,"  the truth is buried, but the liars continue to speak, overtime!

If you want to help the cause of darkness, just be quiet and "follow the burden of your heart."  If you want to obey Jesus Christ, have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, rather expose them.

When Verne said, "leave them alone," he didn't mean to not have any further dialogue with them, lest you damage them...no, he meant don't have fellowship with them.

The pattern is Jesus and the Pharisees.  He had much to say, and had many interactions with them, including violence, but He did not fellowship with them.  He lodged outside the city.

The best testimony is not to "continue with the Lord," in and of itself.  The best testimony is to speak the truth in love.   Don't be silent, the Lord is using you.

Al Hartman----please don't reinforce the Code of Silence around here.

Brent

Marcia,

You wrote,
"My question: Any comments?

"A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough". How does one remove the leaven from the dough after it has 'permeated' the whole lump?

Marcia "

I don't think you can say that just because someone has been influenced by GG or other false teachers that one can say that the "whole lump" is leavened, ie, that the whole church is irremediably given over to evil.   Neither can one say that a group cannot recover.  After all, a church is a group if individuals.  If one individual can recover from the effects of GG, then a group can too.

The $64,000 question is, "will they"?

My guess from reading that letter is no.  GG led them into Plymouth Brethrenism, which began in reaction to the coldness and deadness of 19th Century Anglicanism, along with a bunch of Pietistic ideas inherited from 17th Century Lutheranism.

George Givelittleandtakealotfromus was the messenger of these ideas to them, but the ideas weren't really his at all, and many of the men who worked them out were very godly men.

The history of these groups has shown that these teachings, far from producing "Testimonies to Jesus" have produced testimonies to the pride, foolishness, and hard heartedness of the flesh of carnal men.  In their minds,they are right, (about church issues), and the entire Body of Christ is in the darkness.  

They have proved to be, "better at breaking hearts than breaking bread".  (A. N. Groves, one of their founders)

This takes the form of excommunication and ugly sectarianism, as they splinter into ever smaller sects, in order to avoid the evil of sectarianism!  

So, good luck boys.  I wish you well but I fear that you have already shot yourselves in the foot.

Marcia, say whatever you please to these folks.  

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

Since I consider the assembly system raised by by GG's ministry as a false religious system, then the real need is to "come out from among them an be separate" and leave the system behind. Similar to a JW religious group.

The other question is with GGs ministry(preaching/books) - does the leaven analogy apply to it?

Marcia

Marcia,
The last Sunday morning assembly message I preached was in December, when we knew nothing of these matters.  It was from Haggai 2.  Contact with holy things does not make one holy, but contact with something defiled makes one unholy.  After Geo.'s sin and all other the hidden things came to light, I looked back at this passage and saw it applied.  Corrupted.  Leavened. The Holy Spirit does NOT use defiled, corrupted people who won't acknowledge or repent of their sin to raise up "testimonies" to Himself.
The response of the brethren to your letter seems irrational and even arrogant.
A brother here tried to encourage leadership to seek outside counsel and help.  Their response?  "God is sufficient for us, brother."  Of course He is. That's why He's provided some outside Christian help.
A pastor I talked to said somewhere along the line, we left grace and crossed over into legalistic bondage.   I found his perspective very helpful.
Phill

Marcia,

You wrote,
"Since I consider the assembly system raised by by GG's ministry as a false religious system, then the real need is to "come out from among them an be separate" and leave the system behind. Similar to a JW religious group.

The other question is with GGs ministry(preaching/books) - does the leaven analogy apply to it?"

I think you have some problems with that "false religious system" idea.  What does that mean?

When you say, "Similar to a JW religious group" I think you are failing to make a distinction between born again Christians and non-believers.  Surely you don't mean that the assemblyites aren't really Christians.

If you mean "a Christian group that teaches error", well, there went the Baptists, Presbyterians,  Calvary Chapel, E. Free Churches and so on.  Who can we say has absolutely perfect doctrine?

So, unless you clarify what you mean, I must say I don't fully understand what you are saying.

As to "Come out from among them and be separate", that passage is speaking of Christian Jews leaving their past association with Judaism and declaring themselves as Christians.

It has been misused by hundreds of groups calling on people to leave whatever they have left, as if it applied to their situation.  But...it doesn't.

GG and the Plymouth Brethren in general teach a system of Biblical interpretation that goes back to the Alexandrian Catechal school of the second century.  It is called the Allegorical method.  The Catholic Church picked it up and uses it.

The problem is, who is to say what is the legitimate interpretation of a verse? It is no longer found in the meaning of the sentences or in the context.

 In Catholicism, its the Pope.

Among the PB's it is the dominant brother(s).  

This is the basis for many of their practices.  Doorkeepers, making people "sit back" for some minor offense, and so on.

As to GG's "books", which are actually heavily revised transcripts of his eternal, rambling seminar messages.

I think they are simply confused garbage in belong with the other stuff in the trash.

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

I think perhaps the point that Marcia was making is that George Geftakys was never interested in the truth. The theology he contructed (granted though partly plagiarized from many sources) had at the outset, the intention of bringing many into wicked bondage and making merchandise of the spiritually gullible. The evidence shows that George charted the course of the assemblies very carefully and they had a noisome stench from the very beginning. Look at the awful red flags immediately raised with his early destruction and division of so many families. Those  who knew about and participated in this great wickedness are in my opinion equally culpable! It would be a mistake to misjudge the intentionality of what this false teacher perpetrated on God's people. This is what I understand Marcia to mean by a "false religious system".
Verne

Tom,

Verne has expressed my perspective in his response to your post. But I will comment as well. It is helpful to discuss this issue as it helps clarify in each of our minds what the Geftakys assemblies were all about.
I have been polite by speaking of the assemblies in terms of a false religious system, because speaking of it as a cult brings offense to some. My belief is that the assembly system is/was a cult system, the members being Christians who were (for the most part) sincerely deceived into beleiving that we were serving God by being zealous to serve in the system. The JW analogy breaks down (as most analogies do) when one take it to its literal parallels. The JW analogy was only to illustrate that there are many 'sincere' and 'nice' individuals who are JWs but are involved in a false religious system, similar to those in the assemblies.
I agree with you that the scriptures were/are often twisted and misused to suit the purpose of the group.
I should not have expressed myself thus for that reason.

My intention was to state that since the religious system was not of the Lord, then those involved in it should leave it in order to involve themselves with a Christian church. Hence the 6weeks off / disband suggestion in my exit email letter.

Lord bless,
Marcia :)

Oops!

Sorry I messed that up.  I obviously don't have the idea of how to quote, comment, quote, comment in these posts.

How do you do it?

Tom

Who George was, is subject to speculation.   I truly hope that the man is saved.  

However, there is no doubt whatsoever about who the man is currently.  He is to be regarded as an unbeliever.  Only God knows whether he is horribly backslidden, or unregenerate in the first place.  We may speculate about George's salvation; I have certainly done so.  However, there is no doubt about his current state.  He has refused to hear "the church."  And not just his own twisted "church," but others as well, both from the old days, and from the current time.

Brent

Tom and All,

I'm just thinking out loud. I appreciate your comments.

If GG was not in God's general will because of his behavior, then God would not have led him to begin "his ministry". I refer to Phill Wieser's post.
I have heard GG preach that God honors His word whether it is preached in a bar or in a church. As far a God's Word was preached and we followed it, He honored it.

Extracted from: Early Beginnings by Margaret Irons
http://www.geftakysassembly.com/Reflections/EarlyBeginnings.htm
It is very difficult for me to try to see these beginnings through the lens, “Did God raise up this ministry?” I think that God spoke to us through the many Scriptures that were read, through the many doctrinal hymns we sang, and He fed us through the Lord’s Supper, because we were the sheep of His pasture, not because this was a special work of God. In so doing, He preserved us and we were even able to grow in grace, to some extent.
--end-quote

GG had a 'gift' to speak and convince us of his godliness. Until his excommunication I thought of him as a godly man. He would tell stories like "my kids are ready for glory, so now we're working on the grandchildren" (something like that), in spite of the fact that he knew that his son David was abusing his wife. He lied to us and I believed him. It was a 'smoke screen' to distract us from 'looking' there. A form of brainwashing.

Just recently (last week) I spoke to an individual who recounted GGs version of his excommunication and believes it. GG was in that locality at the time of his excomm.. (this is recounted as I remember it):
GG said that the brothers were trying to find a way to get rid of him because of the DG issue and did not want him to preach. So they 'fished' for information and found a sister who said that something had happened 15 years ago and GG has said he was sorry and had made things right with her. One of the LBs then called other sisters and they said that they had felt uncomfortable around GG, but that nothing had really happened. The brothers then excommunicated GG on the the basis of one witness, and it was also an incident from the past that had been made right. And they did it in his absence. I.E. his excomm.. was 'not biblical'. I pointed her to 1Cor5 as being the biblical reason, but she said that the fact that it was in the past and had been made right then 1Cor5 did not apply. As a result, that assembly has not honored GGs excommunication.

GG has a gift to 'convince' us of his lies.

Lord bless,
Marcia

Sounds like GG has been taking some 'spin' lessons from some politicians.  Man, he's good. :P

Jack

That's irritating.

Sorry, Jack, but the old boy is NOT that good. People just really are that stupid.

Or, with apologies to Brent: The arguments of those who believe George's version of things are are without merit.

Nah, it's just not the same. They're stupid.

Scott McCumber

Marcia,

Regarding your comment about it being difficult to see things through the lens of "did God raise up this ministry".

I am not much of a mystic.  So, my first reaction to a question like this is, "Is this a real question?"

In other words, I am not sure that we can legitimately speak of ministries in this way.

First of all, everything happens under the sovereign rule of God.  That, of course, is a very difficult concept when we think of evil men, actions and events in His world.  How works is a very real question that I don't think has been satisfactorily answered.

Secondly, where does scripture teach that ministries, (what I do or my group does), are "raised up".  

One could say, "the ministry of Martin Luther was certainly raised up by God".  Does that mean everything Martin Luther taught and did was "raised up by God".  

The fellow did us a world of good, but he did some pretty bad stuff too, and taught some pretty wonky ideas as well.

So what's the verdict?  Raised up by God or not?

Beats me.  I don't think it is a legitimate question.

It happened, and it produced result x, y, and z.

We have to decide what our response will be.

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

In my involvement with foster care, I have read much (and experience some first hand) how lovable, gifted kids can be inflicted with psycological disorder due to bonding and attachment issues.  

Some characteristics of an unattached child are:
Extremely friendly and likable.
Inablility to form meaningful realiationships.
Lack of cause and effect thinking.
Life and death need to be in control - even over trivial issue.
Aparent lack of conscience - one story I recently read about, the girl would steal peoples close and deny that it happened even when all the clothes is found in her room.

I'm not going to play Junior Psycologist and claim that I know that George has Reactive Attachment Disorder.  

However, I found it helpful to think of George with a man with psycological pathology causing him to need to be in control at all costs.  What was the cause?  I don't fully know but I would speculate it had much with his upbringing.  Exactly when did he move into this condition full time?  I have no idea.  

But, there are lots of people out there like that and with the fragmentation of the family these days, there will be much more of this with varying degree.

The sad story of George is that he was a gifted man who found himself in a place where everyone loved him and he had no accountability - the absolute worst place for a man of his psycological temperment.

Why wasn't this dealt with earlier in his life when he could have been helped?  I don't know.

However, I don't get so upset when I hear about George denying he ever did anything wrong.  It's all part of his pathology. He is beyond the point of return, most likely.   And, quite frankly, it is not as unusual as you might think.  There are lots of unattached kids running around these days in group homes, foster families, and adoptive families who simply haven't gotten the prominence George had.

At least, not yet.

It seems to me whether God "raised up" the asemblies in not the best way to frame the question. It would be more useful and relevant to ask if George Geftakys was ever a true servant of Jesus Christ. The answer to that question makes any question about the assemblies moot. If you are of the opinion, based on the evidence, that  George Geftakys was once a man of God who subsequently went astray, you will certainly come to a different conclusion from one who thinks he was purposeful in his wickedness from the outset.
Framed in that fashion, there are still many pitfalls possible in our reasoning so far as God's involvement. The case of Judas Isacariot makes this clear. No qestion he was one of the twelve called to be with Christ. No question he was a devil, the Lord Himself affirmed this.
If we conclude that George Geftakys was never "approved" and the Scripture is quite clear on how this takes place, any defence of the entire system he promulgated is indefensible.
Most would agree that George Geftakys was a false teacher so our assessment of him should be the same as the Word of God. Many often cite the fact that he preached the Word but this does not mitigate the fact that he was an evil man from the outset. The Devil preaches the Word as it suits his purpose.
I suspect thate there are many of us still struggling with the fact that we were surborned by this apostate and are still trying our best to cull something salvagable from that sad era. I am preared to admit that my own deception was complete. In my view George Geftakys perfectly fulfils a classic Biblical type of the false teacher. Paul in his letter to the Corinthians speaks of the power of the old testament examples (tupos) and instructs us that they exsist for our warning. I believe George Geftakys is a modern-day display of the same category.
Verne

Regarding George and "Reactive Attachment Disorder", I don't agree with the prognosis. I personally believe that George is a victim of WHD which afflicts most people later in life, but can begin in childhood due to some traumatic or awe-inspiring experience.

WHD(Willful Heretic Disorder) may have afflicted George after he wandered into traffic as a young child and was rescued by a Giant Hand. A deep feeling of Superiority may have overtaken little George(through no fault of his own), and he fell into a form of psychosis which disabled him greatly. Feeling he was an "Apostle" or some other great Luminary, he felt lead to gather others around him, that he might dominate them and use them through his false presentation of real teachings.

But as Psychology teaches, none of us is really responsible for his own actions--all of our problems, failings and negative actions towards others are a result of something that happened in our childhood, and because of our parents. George's heresy, alas, is not something he is responsible for---it was his childhood, his Mom, the Giant Hand, that caused it all. Let's all cut George a break and hope he can get the counseling he so desperately needs---the poor guy.



---Joe

if you want to talk psychology, i think Narcissistic Personality Disorder sums george up pretty well:
http://www.geocities.com/ptypes/narcissisticpd.html
http://www.mentalhealth.com/dis1/p21-pe07.html


actually, that is what the assembly taught that psychology teaches. anyone who actually studies psychology realizes that noone behaves as a narcissist BECAUSE they have Narcissistic Personality Disorder, rather they are diagnosed with Narcissistic Personality Disorder BECAUSE they behave as a narcissist. the diagnosis dosen't excuse any of their behavior - it just helps understand how to work with it by examining the results of working with thousands of other narcissists. careful observation of lots of people with this (or any) disorder leads to the emergence of patterns of behavior and common factors which lead to theories of causation and treatment. from my understanding, people with this disorder usually begin displaying these behavior patterns at an early age, and as they get older the specific manifestation of their disorder solidifies. like most disorders, its some complex mixture of nature vs nurture vs choice - they are born with a natural predisposition to behave this way, which get encouraged or discouraged by their environment. the role of personal choice in personal development is an age-old complex one actively debated by philosophers and psychologists to this very day. in many ways we choose the environment that shapes us, and we control to some degree how it shapes us, in my opinion.

anyway, i gotta run, but let me sum up by saying these are very complex topics, and cannot be meaningfully summed up by simple answers. my opinions: does george have a personality disorder? yes. should he be held accountable for his actions? YES!

brian

Yes, Joe your point is right on.  I don't want to imply that George is simply a victim of his environment and therefore has no responsibility for his actions.

I guess what I am saying is that I no longer get upset when I hear of George insisting that the lie he told never happened, as this is what I would expect from a man with a serious pathology.  If Tom or Mark C exhibited the same behavior, I would be quite angry and/or hurt, as I wouldn't expect it from the psychologically healthy.

I also think that due to a history of choices, George may be at a place where he honestly cannot see himself as anything other than a victim who has done nothing wrong, a martyr for the cause.

I know this is speculation on my part and I have no business treading into a subject I know so little about (psychology).  Perhaps I find this model easier to deal with than believing that George is wholly, consciously, intentionally, and capriciously trying to hurt people.

Dave----

From what basis due you derive an opinion  that Tom Maddux or Mark Campbell are psychologically healthy? Both of these gentlemen went over the edge long ago, and should, in my opinion, be locked up. ;D ;D  --just kidding.

Your points are well taken. Thanks for your posts.

--Joe

Hey!  Watch it!  WHS is our local high school (Watauga High School).

-Dave
Deep Gap, NC

Obviously we cannot. I was invoking the Biblical principle of sowing and reaping - by their fruits ye shall know them. The fruit of a man's life will tell you much about his thoughts. As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he. We know that long before the start of the assemblies George Geftakys had demonstrated himself to be a man of deep moral flaws. At the time the assemblies were started by him we know that he was in a state of spiritual rebellion from constituted local church authority. It seems to me his spiritual condition makes what he was thinking a moot point, do you not agree?
The bitter harvest we saw this year was hardly borne of corrupt seed sown in 2003. Some of the illicit relationships continued over many, many years. The physical abuse and frightful moral turpitude in his immediate family was decades old. So we know that he started his so called ministry in a state of gross defilement, and continued it in the same vein. The full and public flowering of sin in the life of a professed believer means that God's private and winsome entreaties for repentance by His Spirit have been spurned and spurned repeatedly. Tom you and I both know this to be spiritual reality - the corruption and sorrow visited by this man on so many should in no way still be a surprise to any of us in view of what we now know about him for the Word of God predicts it! What we have seen about the man is the tip of the iceberg - I am sure of it. In fact the only biblically satisfactory explanation for the delay in his judgment is that his iniquity is not yet full. His present conduct seems to in every way confirm this conclusion.


Tom this analogy has sparked a relentless train of thought. We now know many claims made by George Geftakys were false. Recent evidence has come to light that calls into serious question his often repeated claims to having served in the armed forces as a marine. His recent statements about the reasons for his excomminication confirm him an incorrigible liar. Are you so confident that any claims he made so many years ago regarding his spiritual condition are believeable?
The comparison to Saul is thought-provoking. While it is true that Samuel was commanded to annoint Saul, the ultimate unfolding of the narrative of his life demonstrated that he was never God's choice. He was what the people wanted and so that is what God gave them. They lusted after a king to rule over them like the nations and effectively rejected the Theocracy instituted under Moses. They rejected God as their king. The prarallels with Saul are even more stark than I realised, including Sauls awful descent ultimately into the terrible sin of witchcraft. (Strange that George of all people should have accused Margaret Irons of such a thing).
Has anyone ever explored the possibility that just as in some ways Saul was God's judgment against the nation for its wantoness, George was a direct judgement against the idolatrous, man-exalting tendencies in some of His people?
The thought makes me shudder. Some people are still following the man! I have always considered him an instrument of the devil himself. My thoughts regarding this man have very much been influenced by C.S. Lewis' observation in "That Hideous Strength"

When wicked and dark spirits are finished playing with their human toys, they always break them...

I need to think some more about this...


 
He did have the remarkable tendency to use the material of others without attribution. I remember being so impressed with one of seminars "The Paradise of God" only to discover later that He got lots of his ideas form Andrew Juke's "Types in Genesis". It is so funny that I just happened to spot a copy of the book on his desk during one of my Fullerton visits. I guess I would still have to conclude that even if the course he embarked on was not ruthlessly premeditated, he was at the outset nonetheless in a state of, at the very least, deception. He had failed to take into account that most fundamental of spiritual principles:

Be not deceived, God in not mocked; whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap!"

Verne

p.s.
You certainly may be right that initially George thought he could entirely escape his past and start over. Problem is the important lesson he failed to learn decades ago is still the one that now eludes him    - for there to be forgiveness and cleansing, there must be confession!

Tom,

A lot of the conclusions I have come to, came from putting pieces of the puzzle together, which then enabled me see the whole picture. Albeit, the picture I am seeing is possibly still incorrect so I am still open to discussion on assembly matters. However it was this BB and the website which helped me to put the pieces together.

Before July 1st, 2003, I posted and inquired annonymously, but I was actively involved since the end of March, though I had been reading it since January (and posted infrequently as a guest then).

The picture I see of the Geftakys assembly system:
It is a false religious system, similar to the system of the scribes and Pharisees.

My response:
to repent from my involvement
to find healing, and to help with the healing process
to 'not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them;' Ephesians 5:11

Unfortunately, many of those still "in" see this as a personal attack on them. I do not fault those who sincerely followed GG and his system before his excomm.., except where they knew better and did not do anything about it and have not repented to date. But I do fault them now for not repenting and proving themselves clear in the matter of their involvement in the assembly system.

Lord bless,
Marcia

Marcia,
I would be curious to know if you became involved in a new church would you still be welcome to visit or periodically participate in chapter summary, or if you came to worship, would you be allowed to partake in breaking bread ? If yes,I would say theres a change. Would you be free to speak what you truly think in a chapter summary. If yes, I would say theres change, but decades of beliefs and habits don't change quickly, if anything it's too easy to fall back into the same old rut.

Tom Maddux:
I think your comments are best taken w/o Verne's commentary on them. The Christian world has had enough conspiracy theories lately. George is starting to become too big. Bigger than he should.

Those who have left and are involved in a new church, are welcome to do all of the above. My particular situation is different, however.

Marcia

Oh no!

Joe has figured me out at last.

Thomas Maddux (aka Napoleon)

He has fallen.
You can call me Sebastian, Verne.  :)
Respectfully,
Sebastian  ;)

Mark K

I have been thinking about the change that has happened in the Ottawa assembly. I can list most of them:

'Acceptance' of non-assemblyite Christians
Shorter meetings
Reading books by other (ie other than the book table) Christian authors
Watching video taped preaching of other (ie other than assemblyite) Christian men (but then we used to do this before as well)
A sister leads the H.S. Bible Study even though there is a brother who can do it

The above mentioned list is external. The internal condition of change becomes evident when a difficult situation arises. Do they 'react' in the same former 'spiritually' abusive manner or not? The answer to that question is: they still do.

A little Ottawa Assembly History is in order here.

Here are a bunch of Christians who sincerely desire to repent and serve the Lord. For the past 20 - 30 years most of these Christians have been involved with Geftakysism. Ottawa claims that because of 'distance' from Fullerton, we were not as bad as those assemblies who were closer to Fullerton. But, in fact, Ottawa is closer to Fullerton, because Omaha was our stepping stone to it. Many will admit that we almost always did things the way it was done in Omaha; and everyone knows 'who' Omaha religiously followed. Don't forget, there are always individual instances of exceptions to what I am stating, ie I am relating this account in a 'generally speaking' manner.

About ten years ago a number of 'original' assemblyites left fellowship. They left because they were unable to perform to the 'rigorous' pace required of them and possibly for other reasons. Upon leaving they discovered 'Churches the Abuse' and attempted to warn us. We treated them as 'disgruntled' and ignored their warnings. However some brothers, who were living in a brother's training home, were reading a book about cults and concluded that the Ottawa assembly is a cult. They also decided that they would not leave but stay in order to 'help' those who were still "in". One who 'helped' sure helped us to 'toe the line' and promote assemblyism very religiously and faithfully.

Fast-forward to GGs excommunication. The assembly dis-associates with GG and his ministry. We become as autonomous as we believe it is possible to be. We assure our LBs that we do not want them to step down. The brothers have some closed brethren meetings and make some decisions about changes to assembly life. Some sisters meet to pray. And so the brothers have decided - case closed.

Here are a bunch of Christians who have spiritually abused and been spiritually abused, despite the warnings that came. These Christians 'repented' after GGs excomm..  God forgives them/us, but does He forget? These brethren are not fit to lead and run a gathering of Christians. They/we need a period of time to heal from our abuse. I do not believe that God had led them to 'start a new work', because they have proven themselves unfaithful for the past ?? years. They cannot say that no one warned them either. The proof is that they 'react' in their former manner of 'reacting' when faced with a challenge. They have not 'gotten honest', hence the healing process cannot begin. I say ditto for Annandale and possibly Placentia and most of the other existing assemblies on the North American continent. At this point I would suggest dis-banding; forget the 6 weeks off. They've had 9 months.

Lord bless,
Marcia

Marcia,

Have you thought of mailing this to the folks in your old assembly?

Thomas Maddux

Tom,

I would love to, but most are not open to honest inquiry and discussion. My 'mass' emails are very few and limited. If you read the reply to my exit email, you might recognize that it was not an honest reply &/or investigation of the points I address in my email. But rather it was an opportunity for the 'assembly point of view as decided by the brethren' to be presented to the assembly.

Lord bless,
Marcia

Marcia,
I believe this. How can they not help but to revert back to a conditioned behavior. You will give into temptation if you have the opportunity to remove yourself from it and don't. It is  arrogant to think you are strong enough.

Mark K

Marcia,
I think the same mentality is here in STL with those who are still meeting.
I recently visited a brother who is still meeting here and I will always consider a friend. They are having a rough time with ex members who are calling and urging them to leave, it offends them and the comment was made, 'you really know who your friends are'. My response was that a good friend would take the time to call and tell you that they think you are making a mistake.
We also discussed what he and others felt were the wounds/lack of respect LBs received from departing saints; the wounds/lack of respect that an LBs kid received from this website.(but he personally has never read the bb)
I told him that anyone that was part of the geftakys system was wounded, whether a big shot or a nobody and that the manner in which this LB kid regularly behaved on the bb was rude.
 What  grieves me is that some don't want to face the whole truth because it will crush their belief that the assembly was God's one true testimony here on earth.

Mark K

   

Mark,
     Faithful are the wounds of a friend...  Pr.27:6

     GG & others used to "use" this verse when they were "wounding" saints for disobeying, or acting independently, or questioning the leadership.  Their point was to convince us that they were acting on God's behalf, as our "friends," when they imposed "discipline" upon us.
     It was only one of countless such misapplications of scripture, but i bring it to mind to make two points:

     Abuses cannot invalidate the Word of God:  the passage means exactly what it says, and saints who are "wounding" their brethren in the assemblies by shining the Light of Truth into their darkness are acting faithfully.

     Those who still abide under the shroud of assembly darkness are accustomed to hearing, and believing, the scriptures wrongly applied.  Because they misunderstand our words and intentions is all the more reason to increase our prayer for and testimony toward  effecting their deliverance.

   

     Some don't know what they want and have difficulty recognizing the Truth.  They have been taught that the assembly is the focal point of God's attention in our age; that if you want to find, to know, to love & to serve Christ, you must do so in the context of the assembly.  Is it then any wonder that they fear to lose/leave the assembly?  To those who believe what was taught, the assembly and God are inseparable.
     To our minds, their recovery may seem impossible, but with God all things are possible...

   

    Thanks, Verne, for the encouraging update, and for your efforts in prayer and service.
     Saints, let's pray!
   
   

     If the above describes you, whether closely or remotely, you have taken a courageous step by reading here:  Please honor Christ by casting all your care upon Him and posting here also.  Your confession will bring relief to your soul, and your testimony may be to many the means of release from bondage.  We are waiting to welcome you and to stand with you in your recovery.

al Hartman

I personally know all of those still left in STL and agree that the brethren are very dear and thus it makes it difficult to post a 'negative' comment about them.
Why are they 'offended'? (touchy sensitive??) Whatever happened to the 'rhinocerous' skin that they boasted they possessed?
These are the ones who were leaders, (maybe not the one you met) who were committed and involved in the work. They cared for the sheep. It is their opportunity to open discussion with those who are calling them and demonstrate their 'care for the sheep'.
The leadership here is not in the habit of gettting both sides of the story. They 'side with' those who are their friends and accuse you of 'trying to justify yourself' if you attempt to 'enlighten' them on a different perspective. (BTW this is still happening - after they have repented).
I agree that the LBK was rude and if he was a 'chip off the old block' then it might give and indication of the true condition of the LB (this is mere speculation on my part since I did not know the LB except to greet him at MWS).
I do not agree with some of the other conclusions made on this BB about the LBK re. his hacking into other people's user accounts &/or his penning posts on behalf of another. He would have to be veerry 'computer literate' to do that.
Yes; this is ditto for Ottawa. The AKs(including mine) and especially the LBKs have a very difficult time with this. It's time to wake up and smell the coffee. :)

Lord bless,
Marcia

I disagree Verne. It violates my 'computer sensibilities'. Please PM/email me this 'strong evidence'.
Marcia

P.S. I will personally publicly post an apology if I am proven to be wrong - Marcia

There is another possibility.  If you remember, 'Laurie / St. Louis sister' didn't like Matt and his ally very much, and she has a reputation for doing mischief.  Perhaps she knows a good hacker who helped her by creating false evidence of foul play against them.

As for the ghost writing, the posts could easily be e-mailed to Matt for him to post, so no technical expertise is needed for that.

The worst of the wounds received by the LB & his kid were from Laurie.  She seemed to plan her attacks well, as if she is a professional at this sort of thing.  The first attack was scheduled while Brent was on vacation.

You are correct about STL-sister and her attacks.

As a computer professional, you also agree that it would take a good-hacker-knowledge for anyone to 'attempt' using another's email or user account.

And 'ghost writing' cannot be proven unless the person A's IP address shows up on person B's post.

Lord bless,
Marcia

Here's an example where someone seems to have accidentally posted under Tom's name:
I have no idea how this happened.

(The above is the other Matt.  We've been talking about Matt Peeling.)

The method of ghost writing that I mentioned using e-mail would leave no evidence other than different writing styles.

The other way would be for Matt Peeling to send his password, or perhaps just remove password protection for a while.

OK everyone.  I really wanted to put this behind us once for all.  

No Hacking is needed.  All I need to do is PM Marcia what I want her to post, and she posts it.  In this way I "wrote" her post.  

If Marcia gives me her password, I can log onto her account and post.

If I am in the same room as her, we can post things, on each of our accounts, on the same computer.

What I did, at the end, was read the following people's PM's.

Matt,
Laurie/STL sister
Mgov--sorry, but I had to figure things out :-[
Luke's--didn't get all of em, cause he deleted his account.
lurker's

By doing this, I was able to see a co-ordinated effort to undermine the BB, and to discredit, Myself, Verne and Mark Campbell.

These guys have read most of the PM's that I mention above, and will concur with what I have to say.  Since it concerned them, I let them read it.

Also, there is something called a Forum Error log in the Admin section of the website.  I can see evertime a person logs in incorrectly, who they are, and what account they were trying to get into.

Matt and Luke both tried to log in to other people's accounts.  I have the error log and the IP's to prove it.  However, can't we just let this lie?  It's over, and in the overall scheme of things, it is next to meaningless.  If that is what really offends them, in light of the whole collapse of George's ministry and its implications, then I think we can conclude that someone isn't seeing straight.

Just so you all know,  I haven't looked at anyones private messages since then, and I cannot do so unless I change your password, which you would know about as soon as you logged in.  I won't do it, unless I sense a concerted effort to lie, impersonate, or defame.  The reason I did it at all, is becaue of the STL sister thing.  It was from that effort that I became aware of what these guys were doing behind the scenes.

I also have the transcripts of several "chats" that Matt and Luke had with a others, which do not make them look good.

So, I guess we all need to evaluate which is the greater sin, or even if something is sin.

1.)Cowardice and complicity with regard to George's adultery, false teaching and abuse

2.) Not being nice to someone on a bulletin board.

In my mind, number 1 seems worse.  However, if someone thinks that the second one is a big issue, well OK.  That tells me plenty about who they are.

Brent

Ghost writing as you mentioned it above is not proveable by any 'concrete' evidence, so we cannot conclude that LR ghost-wrote for MP e.g., unless LR's IP address appears on MP's post.

Marcia

I missed Brent's post below when I posted mine; guess we were posting at about the same time.

In my original post that started off this discussion, I stated my agreement that the LBK had been rude. I do not dispute your decision to dis-allow the LBK from posting, because it did disrupt the BB conversation as a whole.
My disagreement was stated with regards to conclusions about 'hacking' in order to use another's email address and 'ghost-writing'.

The rest of my original post will give you a good idea of my priorities on this forum.

Lord bless,
Marcia

After thinking about Brent's post for a while, I believe what's bothering him is what I said about Laurie, so I will say no more.

Brent,

Please believe me when I say that I hadn't intended to cause trouble.  I'm sorry.

Stephen

Here is what Matt Peeling has to say about this topic.  He emailed me last night.  I guess I am responsible for "Destroying a Ministry."  I assume he is referring to George's ministry.

Also, he has quite a few compliments for you, my "followers."  I bet many of you didn't know that you were following a man "just like George."  I post this information in order to warn you about myself.  None of the goons here will say anything bad about me,  and none of them know the truth; they have all been brought under my control.  However, Matt knows the truth about me, and so it is only right that he get an opportunity to warn you.  Don't you wish that someone had warned you about George?  Well, I am just like George, and am about to fall, so here is your warning.  Get out while you can.  Repent.  Give thanks to the leading brothers.  Leave this evil BB, and stop following a man---me.

Brent

---

Brent,

Quote:

"OK everyone. I really wanted to put this behind us once for all."

I know, buddy, I know. If I had helped to destroy a ministry, I’d also want to put that all behind me in the hopes that the Lord wouldn’t see what I had done. Oops, you’re talking about something else here. My bad. Ok, if I had fabricated lies about two young brothers in order to discredit them, I’d hope that that would be forgotten in my past too. The fact that you needed to use false accusations against us, the fact that you needed to ban our messages of forgiveness, peace, gratitude, honoring those leaders that served us, personal responsibility, etc, the fact that you were completely unable to take any kind of exhortation/rebuke - well, what can I say? All these facts tell me that you needed to resort to evil measures to continue your quest on the bb and to keep your followers with you.

No Hacking is needed. All I need to do is PM Marcia what I want her to post, and she posts it. In this way I "wrote" her post.

Oh, my goodness! I have another interesting fact for you. If you don’t have any money on you, you can call collect from a payphone and then the person you call has to pay instead of you! Now, I assume you’re trying to convince the bb that Luke PM’ed me and told me what to post? Sorry, buddy, you and me both know that Luke and I maybe pm’ed each other twice. I can only remember one off the top of my head and it was something like "all the lively saints said …wow."

If Marcia gives me her password, I can log onto her account and post.

Really? And did you know that fatty foods are NOT good for you? Now, if you were trying to say that Luke gave me his password or I gave him my password, then that would be a boldfaced lie. If Luke and I were in the same room with you, would you be able to say this to us with a straight face? Would you be able to look us in the eye? Maybe the rest of the bb’ers will never know the truth, but there are 3 people who know without a doubt that this is not true: you, Luke, and me. Oh, God knows too. These lies proceed from your mouth, sir, and go straight to God’s ears.

If I am in the same room as her, we can post things, on each of our accounts, on the same computer.


My, my, full of fascinating facts, aren’t we? Did you know that sugar is bad for your teeth? Now, you got us on this one, Brent. Indeed, Luke and I often visit each other when our parents can spare their private jets. Sometimes I just fly out there so we can go out for coffee and talk about how we can rebuild the assemblies. Other times, he’ll fly out here for the sole purpose of posting from my computer and thereby confounding the already confused Brent Tr0ckman. Our last jaunt was to a resort in Kalamazoo in order to plan the implementation of our last operation: Operation BAM! (Brent’s A Moron).


What I did, at the end, was read the following people's PM's.

Matt,
Laurie/STL sister
Mgov--sorry, but I had to figure things out
Luke's--didn't get all of em, cause he deleted his account.
lurker's

You sure did. And when you found out that nobody told me what to post, you realized that you made a fool of yourself and had to lie about it to save yourself. Nothing like lying in the name of the Lord.

By doing this, I was able to see a co-ordinated effort to undermine the BB, and to discredit, Myself, Verne and Mark Campbell.

Hmm…two possibilities here. #1) another lie or #2) you have trouble distinguishing fantasy from reality – a condition called schizophrenia. Oops, pulled a Verne and resorted to calling you a psychotic…next thing I’ll be saying is that you’re a racist sexist. THANKS FOR NOTHING VERNE!

These guys have read most of the PM's that I mention above, and will concur with what I have to say. Since it concerned them, I let them read it.

LOL – those two goons drool all over you buddy. They’ll say anything you want them to say. And Verne, like you, can’t take any correction, no matter how gentle.

Prov 16:18-19 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

Prov 6:16-17 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

Psa 101:5 Whoso privily slandereth his neighbour, him will I cut off: him that hath an high look and a proud heart will not I suffer.

And the Bible promises that the same fate that befell Geftakys will befall you if you keep this up, Brent:

Jer 49:16 Thy terribleness hath deceived thee, and the pride of thine heart, O thou that dwellest in the clefts of the rock, that holdest the height of the hill: though thou shouldest make thy nest as high as the eagle, I will bring thee down from thence, saith the LORD.

That was GG’s biggest problem, Brent. He was a very proud man, much like you. I urge you to repent and humble yourself before the Lord.


Also, there is something called a Forum Error log in the Admin section of the website. I can see evertime a person logs in incorrectly, who they are, and what account they were trying to get into.

Matt and Luke both tried to log in to other people's accounts. I have the error log and the IP's to prove it. However, can't we just let this lie? It's over, and in the overall scheme of things, it is next to meaningless. If that is what really offends them, in light of the whole collapse of George's ministry and its implications, then I think we can conclude that someone isn't seeing straight.

LOL, yes someone is definitely NOT seeing straight. Check the REAL error log, not the one in your DREAMS.

Just so you all know, I haven't looked at anyones private messages since then, and I cannot do so unless I change your password, which you would know about as soon as you logged in. I won't do it, unless I sense a concerted effort to lie, impersonate, or defame.

Hmmm…how come we can’t check your private messages then? That would be only fair – although I don’t "sense" a concerted effort to lie and defame on your part, but rather I’ve been slapped in the face with your efforts to lie and defame.

The reason I did it at all is because of the STL sister thing. It was from that effort that I became aware of what these guys were doing behind the scenes.

Now this is definitely interesting. Reading our Pm’s was definitely vital in identifying this woman because it is very logical that we would be the first people she’d tell. Hmmm…weren’t you the one who was bragging to me and Luke that you took logic in college? Guess that’s one of the subjects you start to lose over time when you don’t use it….

I also have the transcripts of several "chats" that Matt and Luke had with others, which do not make them look good.

LOL, on man those were hilarious. I’m glad Kim Tobin shared them around so as to give everyone else a good laugh. I wish I had saved some of those chats, now that was some comedic genius. I’m also relieved to hear this because it confirms that Kim read and saved them. Luke and I were worried that our wit went unnoticed. I wonder how those transcripts "do not make us look good." Two younger brothers joking around and being sarcastic with each other – have you ever heard of anything so outrageous? The nerve!

So, I guess we all need to evaluate which is the greater sin, or even if something is sin.

1.) Cowardice and complicity with regard to George's adultery, false teaching and abuse

Blind acceptance of Brent’s lies, defamation, and abuse.

2.) Not being nice to someone on a bulletin board.

Well, brent, seems to me that you’re guilty of both. I don’t think it matters which is more serious though, just repent on both points.

In my mind, number 1 seems worse.

Well, ok, I’ll agree with you then. Acceptance of Brent’s lies is worse than being mean to someone on the bb.

However, if someone thinks that the second one is a big issue, well OK. That tells me plenty about who they are.

Exactly. I mean, imagine someone insisting that people be "nice" on a BB full of primarily Christians. Don’t people have any decency left?

- Matt

---

As I said during the STL Sister thing, anyone who wants to view my PM's--I have 257 now, I deleted everything up until that point, is welcome to them.  If you look back in my posts, you will see that I made this offer to everyone months ago.  I also asked Matt if he wouldn't mind me sharing a few emails he wrote to me, to which he replied,  "Don't share them."  I honored his wishes.  

Anyone who wants my PM's is welcome to them.

Brent

Oh,

there was one other thing I forgot to put in my post below.  Matt Peeling "Ghost wrote," That post.  He emailed me, and I wrote what he wrote.  He is the author of my post--well not all of it, but most of it.

See how easy it is?  I am not even a computer whizzz.

Brent

Matt...is that guy a nut or what?  My word... ???

Well, we just need to keep in mind that he isn't unlike we were, a few years back.  He'll come around in time.  Until then, I don't want to revisit that era on the BB.

Brent

I figured out how "this" (Matt Scaini posting under my name) happened a few days later when I accidentally posted under Dave Mauldin's name!  

What happened is that Matt S. , Dave Mauldin, and I all live in Fullerton.  We have all used the computers in the Library from time to time.  

If you don't log out before closing the website window after your session, the next person who goes to www.geftakysassembly.com from that particular computer will find himself logged in under the previous user's name.

I have become very carefull about logging out whenever I use another computer besides Ole' Betsy here in my study.

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

I suggest that this Matt fellow who seems so unreasonable be communicated with in the same way we talk to John Malone Seeeenior.  ;)

That way, no storms can get in.

Thomas Maddux

i don't really want to waste any more of the remainder of my life pointing out the obvious concerning matt and those of his ilk, but i want to go on the record with the following:

I banned matt, luke, and everyone else who has been banned from this board - not brent. i made up my own mind to ban them for reasons i consider valid, and anyone who wants to know why can email me. i explained it at the time. its had nothing to do with ghost posting. it has everything to do with being willingly deceived into offensively propogating other people's twisted perspectives concerning the assembly. it wasn't only their consistently deceived message, or their consistently insulting manner of conveying it, but it was both of these things together that put even a forgiving and easy-going guy like myself  ;) over the edge  >:(

it is my honest opinion that noone has ever intentionally posted under another person's username on this bb. i have run the ip checks even more rigorously than brent has (since i have access he does not) and convinced myself that the ip overlaps that occured were most likely people that were using the same ISP (such as aol) or same facility (such as the public library). however, i believe brent correctly identified a subversive group with agendas destructive to this bb community and i thank him for his vigiliance. that is why he is still an admin. even though i do not agree with brent's original theory that people were intentionally posting under other people's accounts, i do not believe for a second that brent was lying either. he was acting on the best analysis of the information he had available to him with his level of access. the difference is that the bb is on my server so there is nothing about the detailed running of it that i cannot find out if i want to. i was on vacation when stlouissister and other abuses occured. stlouissister was a rather clear cut case, while matt and luke presented a more complex problem. i feel bad that those things got out of hand. it is my earnest intention that such things will not happen again, but the judgement calls needed to prevent them are not simple ones when one values individual liberty of expression as deeply as i do.

i hate seeing people hassle brent over decisions i made concerning this board. on the other hand, i am an extremely busy introvert, and don't usually make as fun of a conversational partner as brent. but quit harassing him anyway, you closeminded juveniles :P

if someone is harassing you by email here are some ways to get rid of them:
1) make it clear you do not want to receive emails from them anymore - save this request
2) post their emails with their addess and full name here (only if the content would embarass them or discredit them - don't let stupid and harassing emails become a conduit onto this board)
3) contact the service providing their email address (hotmail, yahoo, university) and inform them that this user is abusing the priviledge of their email account. if you keep doing this each time they harass you, you could very well get their account suspended or deleted.

and now, back to the usual fun. i, for one, would love to see joe write up a sequel to the giant hand story where the giant hand apologizes profusely to everyone 'it was all a terrible mistake' and picks up george, tossing him back onto the busy road.  right. ok

brian

Riverside Telegram, 9-17-03


FRINGE GROUP MEMBERS FLEE FROM GIANT HAND

Residents of Wilby Ave. in Riverside were startled by the sounds of screaming and pandemonium on Tuesday, as a small religious "fringe" group's Bible Study ended abruptly
with an exodus of rabid fear from their meeting place on this normally quiet and peaceful street.

Shirley Tripp, a last minute attendee to the meeting, and an eyewitness, gave us this account:   "We had finished a small meal of Mole' chicken with mushrooms and gravy that George's(George Geftakys is the aged leader of this religious fringe group) Uncle Fritz had prepared for us" said Shirley, "It was a recipe from Mexico. I didn't have time to eat any but I hear it was awfully good. And then Fritz got up and began to talk about George. He mentioned George's childhood and amazing rescue from traffic when he was very small. Then Fritz introduced George and said 'Let's all
give George a great big hand'. As the applauding began George began to look distressed. Then he looked up and screamed "A great big hand?? No!! No!! Please, go away!! Please don't put me back into the traffic!!' He jumped up and made his way towards the door shouting 'I'll pay it back, I'll pay it all back, I promise!!' Then he grabbed the treasury box and jumped into his car and sped off. Then everyone else started screaming too, and started running down the street" she commented.

Shirley stated that she had not seen the Giant Hand personally. "I never saw it" she said, "But Uncle Fritz did for sure. He said it was about 15 feet long, manicured, and holding a paddle" she added. When questioned further she stated "he said it looked like one of those paddles the Vice Principal used to use to give bad boys a swat".
Since the occurence no one has seen Brother George or his fearful followers. "He's hiding" says Shirley, "But that Giant Hand is still out there looking for him". The neighbors of Wilby St. can now rest a bit easier, but the mystery of the Giant Hand continues.

Joe-

Is that a true article from the newspaper?? :o

Write something that uses a lot of those big, descriptive words you like so much.  Email it to me, and I'll make sure it's what I want you to say, then you post it.  

As long as I tell you what to say, then no one can accuse me of "ghostwriting" your posts.   Just make sure that we attack Tom Maddux, and Marcia.  I'll PM you.

Brent

If you guys wish to "chaw" on me for a while, you will have to find a place that is not covered with thick, tough scars.  After my 18 years under the tender loving ministrations of George Givelittleandtakefromallofus, there aren't many such places left. ;D

Thomas Maddux

This is a quote from one of my email contacts who does not post on this BB:

quote--
The web site is the reason that George's sin was brought in the light, it is the reason we are no longer deceived by him,  so why is it an offense to some? They can't seriously believe that it would have been better for all of us to remain in the dark and let George continue in his sin.  That is not of God!!
--end-quote


This is a quote from another one of my email contacts who does not post on this BB; the comment was made in response to reading Bob Smith's post yesterday on SWTE:

quote--
I got a headache reading the end of the post and it brought back terrible remberances for me. This truly is a died in the wool legalistic Assemblyite. Praise God I am free from this terrible controlling system that robs faith rather than engendering it. He pompously shows all the arguments as if he knows everything that ever will be written about the subject. Yuck I think I was probably just like that 5 months ago.
--end-quote


Even though there are fewer regular posters than before, there are many who are reading the BB and commenting on it.

Lord bless,
Marcia

I'm not going to comment on the seagulls, with the exception of "Bob Smith," and his latest post, which I finally read after hearing about it here.

Notwithstanding his boldness, to publicly state how Marcia's marriage is going the wrong way, (how would he know?)  the liberty he takes in assigning motives is unreal.

With no proof, no witnesses at all, he speaks not of factual events, but of a personal interpretation of someone's motive, totally apart from her testimony.  Marcia's motivation is please Verne and I, according to "Bob."
3 quick comments:

What he is saying is not true.
He says it under an alias.  Personal attacks, by an anonymous person is the basest form of slander and cowardice.  Even if the charges against us on this board were true (which they are not) at least we have the courage and integrity to use our real names.  The fact that he does not have the courage to use his real identity demonstrates very clearly the kind of person he is.

Everything we say on this website, especially on the main website, is backed up by witnesses, according to the biblical standard.  I would never say that Bob's marriage is on the rocks, in a public forum, unless it was public knowledge, and it was factual and somehow relevant.

I could go on, but we all know that no one is fooled by "Bob."

"Bob,"  you are a pathetic, anonymous poster, and whatever and whoever else you may be, you certainly don't have much courage, which means you have weak morals and are governed by fear, at least in this area.  

Also, I think I know who you are, and if you continue to behave in the way you are, I may give you the courage to use your real name.

Brent

Bob Smith is an assembly-sympathetic ex-LB. I suspected that he was from Canada before Brent mentioned it in one of his previous posts. I recognized the style. It is also apparent that Bob knows me personally. As a 'shepherd' I would have expected him to email me and dialog with me before publicly declaring his 'assumptions' about me. I would NOT have given him the silent treatment. But assembly-sympathetic LBs and ex-LBs do not break the 'code of silence' especially when it comes to a mere sister who was never a LBW nor a worker (PTL that I was neither). This is a cowardly act on Bob's part. I suspect that Bob remains annonymous because he is protecting the Ottawa assembly. Maybe he is afraid that if he dialogs with me he might actually change his mind about assemblyism. "Everyone who reads the website &/or dialogs with me ends up leaving the assembly."

Marcia

At least there is something to be glad of.

When I was first saved my husband was not, so I went to the assembly meetings without my husband. The assembly did not disapprove of my behaviour then. Now I am going to another church without my husband, but with my husband's consent, but for some reason I have recevied criticism from a few assembly individuals for doing so. Bob Smith has suggested that I have left my family by not going to assembly meetings with them. My question to Bob Smith: Did you ask Mark Miller why his wife goes to EVFree and not to the assembly meetings with him? This is called a 'double standard'. It is still alive and well amongst assembly-sympathetic individuals.
BTW in the past the Ottawa leaders have counselled 3 individuals to attend assembly meetings even though their spouses are unsaved and do not attend with them. In 2 of those situations the spouses wanted them to go to mainline Christian churches. One of those individuals has recently left and is very happy in a mainline Christian church closer to home.

I will state this again. The Ottawa assembly has issues and problems, but I did not leave the assembly because of those problems. After all they were my friends for 21+ years or so. I left the assembly for conscience sake. When I realized that the assembly is a false religion akin to that of the scribes and Pharisees, I could no longer remain. At first I did not want to leave but to discuss the matter with the LBs, but that did not work out, so I left without doing so. One particular individual thinks that I was influenced by Brent in a negative manner. I did dialog with Brent and Verne and Mark C and the rest of the BB on assembly matters while I was figuring out the 'truth of the matter'. In the end it was a particular post of Brent's that hit home and caused the puzzle pieces fit together for me. It was where I was at in my figuring things out, because that post has not had the same effect on others. My thanks to this BB and it's posters for your willingness to discuss these things with me.

Also, Brent has had the courage to do what no other assemblyite was willing to do. I fully support him in his endeavour to expose Geftakysism. All of you 'nice' assembly sympathizers are just as guilty of promoting Geftakysism as those who are not so nice. It cost each of us in service, time, and money, but we were primarily focussed on drawing others in, rather than on drawing others to the Lord. I will qualify that by saying that there were instances of exceptions to that rule.

Lord bless,
Marcia

What the anonymous coward "bob smith," has said about you, and your husband is truly gossip and slander.  Obviously, he did not speak to you or Claude about it, but decided it would be a good idea to spout his own false assumptions in a public forum, and that anonymously.

This reminds me of St. Louis Sister, which some of you may recall.  The lesson I learned then was to ignore and reject anonymous posters who make ugly personal attacks.  Truly, THAT is not according to Christ.  Should the anonymous coward post anything like that on this forum, he will be instantly banned.  

His pious platitudes notwithstanding, he owes you and your family an apology, and he should publicly admit that he made hurtful statements out of malice and ignorance.  

I was advised by my attorney, prior the website, that "The truth is the best defense against slander."  Consequently, I can back up everything I said, wrote and posted on the website.  As I have done several times, when I find that perhaps my facts were not quite right, I have publicly apologized and corrected what I said.

The anonymous coward from Alberta, "bob," claims that I am a bad person, doing a bad thing.  If he thinks that he is better, than he should at least hold to my minimal standards and apologize to Marcia.  The Assembly is alive and well in "bob smith," the anonymous coward who speaks evil of a woman and her marriage without knowledge and with malice.

---

Here's a question.  Can someone tell me which Assembly was in Alberta, or on its border?

Brent

A message to Bob Smith from Alberta, Canada

I suggest that you read Mr. Miller's article on the website before you visit him.

http://www.geftakysassembly.com/Articles/TeachingPractice/AppealToAssemblies.htm

Marcia Marinier
from Ottawa, Canada
ex-assemblyite family member of the Marinier family

You don't know who Buffalo Bob is?  You must be from Canada or something eh.

Buffalo Bob: Say kids, what time is it?
Kids: It's Howdy Doody Time!

It's Howdy Doody Time.
It's Howdy Doody Time.
Bob Smith and Howdy Do
Say Howdy Do to you.

Let's give a rousing cheer,
Cause Howdy Doody's here,
It's time to start the show,
So kids let's go!

Oops sorry, wrong Bob.  I suspect that this Bob is more like Clarabell!  Okay now kids what time is it?

Okay Brent, you have a funny nose! ;D  Oops, I am sorry that was wrong, but can I at least make anonymous comments about anonymous posters? Okay, I'll play nice.  Now let's start with Bob Smith.  I am most serious when I say that in the 10 or so years that I have known of Bob, I have never been disappointed in him.  I have always assumed that he was a great guy who loved the Lord.  This is 100% true. Okay, okay, before anybody gets too sick here, this is actually an unsolicited plug for Bob Smith Industries. I am of course talking about the real Bob Smith here (the Bob Smith of Bob Smith Industries in Atascadero). I have used his products exclusively and extensively for over a decade, and am most impressed.  Quality all the way.

http://www.bsiadhesives.com/Pages/aboutbsi/aboutbsi.html (http://www.bsiadhesives.com/Pages/aboutbsi/aboutbsi.html)

BTW Retread has big ears and smells funny! :)

p.s. I can confirm that Brent is consistent on his thoughts regarding anonymous posters.  When Brent was running this bb, he asked me not to post if I was going to be anonymous (even though I was never in disagreement with him).  It was only after Brian took over the bb, that I was allowed to post again.

And to be fair to Bob, I can honestly say that I don't know him, nor do I understand him or have much of a clue as to what his problems may be.

Someone brought up an interesting point today: Why do we label certain bahaviour characteristics in Geftakys assemblyites(ex and present) as GG-isms or Geftakyism. Are they not just human failings? Other gatherings suffer from similar problems after all.

Marcia

Yes, you are correct.  Plenty of other groups have the same kind of problems.  These other groups are cults, and as cults they are strongly influenced by the cult leader/guru.  So, when the cult leader teaches his followers to begin a session of coercive persuasion with the words,  "Brother!  The Lord has so put you on my heart!  How is the Lord Speaking to you?",  it is no surprise that the people in the cult ALL talk like this.  This would be a GG'ism.

In a Sikh cult called 3HO, they didn't use bible talk, they said, "Keep Up Ji,"  which was kind of like saying,  "Praise God, The Lord is still on the throne!  How's your morning times?"  In this case, it is not a GG'ism, but a Yogi Bhajan'ism.  Rachel wrote about it in her story.  

So, in one sense we weren't at all unique, but in another sense we were, because although the effects are the same, GG's peculiararities(SP?) rubbed off on us, and not David Koresh's.

In the arena of Evangelical Christianity,  there are very, very few groups, relatively speaking who had the problems we had.  Only a small fringe element is like the Assembly.  Our elitist mentality was correct in a way... :-[

Brent

Good explanation about the GG-ism part. Do you think that some of these are just human failings? and if not then why not?

Marcia

Yes, and that's the point.  They are human failings, and as such should be corrected, not excuse.  Petty theft is not illegal if a dog does it.  Our dog ran off with the neighbor's jacket the other day.  He hung it over the fence and the dog grabbed it and played chase with the neighbor.  It was funny.

However, when a person does it, like at school, it can be cruel, or it can be theft.

Humans are the ones who sin and fail.  Nevertheless, Let all those who are called by His name depart from iniquity.

Human failings are not excusable.  In fact, humans are going to burn for eternity because of their failings.

Brent

Aw Brent, I was only trying to trick you into not ignoring me, and here you go and keep your word and ignore me.  Shame on you. :)  Okay, shame on me. :-[  I'll try and behave myself in the future. (maybe :-\)

Most everyone that was involved in a Geftakys assembly has been wounded from their assembly experience. Those who were involved for as little as three years have not come out of their experience unscathed. Some assembly participants only went to the Sunday morning meetings, or Sunday and some Bible Study meetings and some fellowships. But each one that attended on a fairly consistent basis has discovered that assembly attitudes have rubbed off on them. AKs were not involved in 'assembly politics', and some of them do not realize the effects of Geftakysism on the assembly.

There are some(AKs and non-AKs) that remain 'assembly sympathetic' figuring that they have never been affected or that they are now unaffected because of some behaviour modification tactic. This is akin to the carload of people travelling along a road towards destination A. At some point one of the car occupants realizes that they are no longer heading on the correct road because they missed a turn somewhere along the way. The stereotypical driver syndrome kicks in and the driver refuses to admit that they are off course, and will not humble himself to ask for help. Most of us know the rest of the story. For them to get back on track, the driver will have to experience pain to humble himself and admit that he was off course. Going back on course will require his present course of action to be disrupted. Those are -ve feelings and experiences but is this good or is this bad? Is it the fault of the person who pointed out the fact that they were off course?

Selah!

Lord bless to all,
Marcia

Marcia,

Reading about people who have been involved in the assembly, whether by choice or by birth, and deny that they are influenced by it remind me of my teaching years.

I would walk up to some kid, from whom the smell of candy or corn nuts or whatever is rising, and say, "are you chewing/eating X?"

The  kid would frequently say, "no".  I would always say, "show me your tongue".  The evidence was always there...especially if it was candy.

They had to write bocoup (sp?) standards.

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

Another reason Assembly history documented is important-
We learned last winter from Brinda McCumber's story what really happened in Tuscola.  If not for her writing that, we would have had the choice of continuing to believe one of the two stories we were told when we asked, What do you mean, there's no more assembly in Tuscola?  One: The Tuscola assembly had knocked on each door in their small town at least twice and it was time to go stand with the assembly/outreach in Charleston. Or,  Two:  Oh, that is sad what happened in Tuscola.  Really sad.  (said with head shaking back and forth, eyes turned away)
No wonder the assemblies always wanted people to go away quietly, if they had to go.  Comparing notes with others who have left turns up some very interesting things.
BW

George used to teach that if we were really unfaithful with the 'testimony' God would remove the 'candlestick' from that community.  If GG really believed that, then we all would have heard about what happened in Tuscola so we would not repeat their mistakes, right?  Well, we didn't hear much about it in SLO.

A couple of years ago (when I was still duped) I asked one of the former leaders of Tuscola about what happened.  He casually commented that things didn't go well, but that he and the rest of the leaders from Tuscola had learned their lessons and had assumed leadership positions in the new assembly in Charleston. ???

Jack

This BB has been a blessing to me and at moments humorous.
The funniest was the spin Joe Sperling put on one of Georges tall tales about how as a child George was miraculously saved from being hit by a car from a giant hand that appeared out of heaven and pulled him to safety.