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When I was in fellowship in SLO, I was approached by one of the leading brother's wives and was told that my braids did not honor God.  So, I unbraided my hair and never wore braids again as a member.  Has anyone else encountered strange teachings such as this?

It's been almost 20 years, but I do remember some things like this:

No pearls or white beads that looked like pearls on wedding dresses.

No braided hair(had nothing to do with race as far as I know) 1Pet 3:3

Same for costly clothes.

Everyone lived in the same neighborhood, or if they didn't, they were encouraged to move there!

The salad dressing has already been mentioned

And Finally......The Franklin Planner!!

Lets see -

No pierced earrings - workers were told it was for the sake of the African brothern and that it stumbled them.  (What about when Samuel O. wife showed up with gold hoops in her ears.  Really stubbling to her I am sure).

No Best friends - wouldn't want to be exclusive would we.

No nail polish - at least among the more "committed" families.

I know about the earings, I never heard anything about braided hair: I used to braid mine all the time. I had pearls on my wedding dress, hmmm alot of them and I never heard a taboo against nail polish. I guess it depends what lodge you were from. The Franklin Planner was a hot fad. I guess with any group there are FADS. With the lodge, we didn't call them fads but 'spiritual helps or guidelines.'

Greetings:
Am I out of order here? Sorry about my gender but I can't change that(I must still have the 20th century thought patterns to make this kind of statement).
  The brothers where I am from couldn't preach unless they wore a tie. I realize that this isn't so weird, but we did tend to look like a bunch of Mormon missionaries on the afternoon outreach. Wicked me, I was always fantasizing that a certain brother's clip-on would fall off in front of everyone :o whilst he preached.

Regarding the braiding of hair: In our Assembly (SLO), it was the Black women who were encouraged not to.  I used to see the leading brother's kids (all non-Black) with braids all the time...so why was it just the Blacks?  I'll ponder that question over my bowl of vanilla ice cream tonight...

Hi Everyone,

Yup, lots of weird teachings out there!  How about this?  Doorkeepers are to dress in business attire for the meetings, but were chewed out if they out dressed the leadership.

If you were sitting in the front row in the meetings you could not use the bathroom.

Also, my wife told me this.  Sisters could not wear denim dresses on Sunday.  I know my wife never obeyed the rule, but it is there.  After she wore it, all the sisters started wearing them.  Hmmmm...talk about leading a rebellion.

Eric

Ha!

Eric, we had the same kind of thing up here.  All of the women were supposed to wear dresses to the Wed. nite Chapter summary.  Suzie decided to wear pants, and she was the only one for a while, but eventually they all started wearing them.

As a doorkeeper(I hate that term) I had to wear a suit and tie on wed. nite!  I never wore the jacket, and the LB's constantly hassled me about it. I would just bring the jacket and set it on the back of the chair.

Many LB's and their "goofy sycophants" would get up to preach, but would put their jacket back on ibefore speaking in order to show how serious the ministry was.

Visitors were real comfortable around this.....NOT!

Brent
(What an imbecile I was!)

Greg, you only had to call two people when missing a meeting?  >:(  You obviuosly missed the doorkeeper's meeting when it was discussed we might be directed to call more.

When I was sick (not Meetingitis) I had to call the head of the doorkeepers, then I was usually directed to call #2 in charge of the doorkeepers.  After that I had to call the BP's Puppet.  He usually had me call the BP and sometimes the jumping bean.  This would take 20-30 minutes as at least one would verbally assault me for being sick.

I learned very quickly that communication was not an attribute in the valley assembly.  ;D  ;D

Remember this one?  You are not to say "God bless you" when someone sneezes!!!  After 9 years of not saying it, I am finally beginning to say it again.  It feel weird not to.

And what about this one:  a woman was not to cross her legs if she were in the front row and George was preaching (ie-if he visited your particular assembly)? ;D

Ok - I may get busted for this one :-\

This is a wierd teaching but more then that.  I should probably go under a different thread but I can't decide which one so here it goes.

In meeting with Betty, while I was pregnant, she brought up the wounds of Christ in his hands and feet.  She said that he has those wounds in his resurected body because they are the result of our sin.  Her conclusion was that the consequences of our sin in our physical body would be there in our eternal bodies.  Her example was if we pierce our ears then we will have pierced ears in eternity.  (Would that really be such a bad thing? ;))  However if you take that to the logical conclusion that would mean a disease like AIDS that resulted from sexual immorality would still be present in our eternal bodies.  That would contradict the scripture which says there will no longer be sickness or death and no more tears.  A little scary huh.  

This is what Betty said to me.  Not second hand, to me.  

O.K. i have a question re: a weird (at least it felt REALLY weird)  teaching that occured in the SLO assembly. I don't know if this happened elsewhere, but if it did, please fill me in....
One day somebody decided-maybe the result of a workerbee mtg or something, i'm not sure- that it would be a good idea for the children to address the adult saints as brother so-and-so or sister so-and so and that the adults address the leading brothers as brother so-and so. I did this for about 2 days and then decided it was too weird! i even had the kids stop calling me sister cristina because i felt like i was in a nunnery, o.k. convent!! anyway, I'd appreciate any feedback on this...hey, i was just thinking, did the kids have to call thier parents sister mom or brother dad??(wow, now THIS could get confusing,,,sounds like mormonism to me..anyway,  I didn't have kids in the assembly  (thank God!!!!!!!!! )so i don't know what the protocol was!!!!
Also, i used to address  the big cheese as geroge instead of bro. george. He never corrected me, but the sisters in my home sure did!!!!  I didn't care though, I still called him george. after all, he would always say that he's....just a simple brother in the Lord, and i didn't call the other bro's bro so and so. but, there's no hierarchy in this group, it's just our imaginations!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Christina, personally I didn't take the practise to be too weird.  The reasoning was that we are all in the family of God--we're all brothers and sisters in Christ, yet there needed to be some sign of respect for those who were older.  In other words, even in the world, repectful children say Mister or Misses to adults.  In the assembly, they replaced that with brother or sister, which was almost like a term of endearment, so the children said brother so and so when talking to an adult.  I can see how this could be seen as weird, but I thought it was kinda neat and more personal than mister since, after all, we are in the family of God.

George insisted on being called "Brother George" when he was up preaching. Otherwise he said it was ok to call him George.  In my upbringing, I would still expect for a young guy like me to call an elderly fellow like him, mister, so at the time, I thought it was a nice gesture that he would allow us to just call him George which is a more familiar term.  
In Fullerton, almost everyone calls him Brother George--that is like his name there.  

I hated being called "Brother Brent."

I was at a loss to tell my kids why the neighbor on the right was Mr. Churchill, while the one on the left was Brother David.  "Kids, we are not exclusive, but only call the saint's Brother, call other believers, Mr."

George chewed me out for calling him George once.  Others have told me the same thing.  He is a Brother among brothers. I am just a brother.

Suzie hated seeing assembly kids in the store, because she might be talking to someone, and this kid would run up and say, "Hi sister Suzie!"  It was embarrasing.

Brent

I have three children (ages 16, 8 and 7) and I never required them to call people brother or sister so and so.  And yes, you were right, there must have been some workerbee meeting where they decided it was a good idea, because, all of a sudden it was THE RAGE.  I had already been in fellowship for quite some time when they instituted it, so I thought it was rather strange.  My husband likens it to the Catholic church always changing the rules (meat/no meat on Fridays.) "Lest thou shouldest ponder the path of life, her ways are moveable, that thou canst not know them." Prov 5:6

But I have always been the rebel!

Hi all,
I think the sister/brother bit sprang from a obvious  lack of respect among 'children' to adults ( in my lodge). For instance in the public schools I'm addressed as  Mrs..........and not by my first name. I can see where it's weird to start this  in the lodge after using first names. Respect towards adults and ppl has to be taught at the start. Adding a prefix to someone's name will not instill respect. So often in the Lodge, problems are shuffled under the 'bed or in closet.' The core of the problem is never addressed but a solution is pasted over the problem, and everyone is in denial, 'problem? what problem?'
This feels like 'dysfunction.' I think 1 way the Lodge screws up the children is that the lodge members call this behaviour 'spiritual.'

Well said Kay,

The practice is not spiritual, in spite of the fact that it was handed down and implemented by God's government.

Brent

I think one of the problems with the lodge practices is that it removes responsibility (not before God-simply in one's mind) from the parent to someone else (or for singles for oneself in making decisions to someone else.)  If so and so (who I am told is a godly man or woman and I am to submit to their counsel) tells me to do something, then I don't have to think.  I just act upon what someone else tells me to do.  This removes all critical thinking and truly "finding the will of God."  Now, the lodge members would be the first to tell you, "Don't just take my word for it, you get before the Lord and find out what His will is."  But the practical application of that counsel is, that if I were to not implement the counsel given, I more than likely would be entreated for not responding to the counsel of God.  I would be labeled as "not leadable" (circular arguement again-the lodge has this down to a science!)

One of the things my husband and I are having to traverse, as it has only been two months, is how to deal with our children.  We did it wrong for so long, now we are having to really look at the scriptures and find out what the will of God is.  We don't want the pendulum to swing so far the other way, that there is no discipline.  And yet, we are unwilling to wield the strong and unloving hand of our former "Lodge days".


Thank God, He will lead us, "Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine owne understanding.  In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths."  He has been gloriously leading us so far!  There has been such incredible fruit in our children and the Lord is truly changing our lives as a family and individually.

Glory be to God! :) :)

John (or, from the last post, Mr. Malone....or brother John? :)

I agree with you.  The Scripture's meaning does not change based on man's opinion or use of it.  One question I have for you that I've been thinking about, and I'd like to hear your take on this.  We know there exists absolute truth, and we believe that the Bible is the truth--the Word of God.  However, we also know that we are finite and sinful creatures who do change and who are limited by perspective.  How is it that we can know for certain that the way we see it is the true way?  You know as well as I do that there are differing views on eschatology and predestination, to name a couple.  People hold to their views religiously and both sides of any argument are equally convinced that their way of seeing things is the proper and correct view.  Also, a person may say that God or the Holy Spirit showed him these things.  Certainly that is George's claim in regards to his heavenly vision.  I think it is arrogant to believe that the way I see it is unquestionably, THE truth. On the other hand, there are things that we must stand for.  

My take on it is that there are things in the Bible that are very clear and would be agreed upon by most people and there are things that are not so clear which are open for discussion.  From my reading of the Bible, the main theme which I see being communicated is, of course, the gospel.  I think of Paul being adamant about defending, accurately communicating, and standing for the truth of the gospel.  And after all, how important that is seeing as how it is the message of the eternal Son of God and what he did on behalf of humanity.  What else could be more important to us?

Ultimately, it seems that the most excellent way is to not bicker with your brother over minor things but rather to love your brother as described in I Cor 13.  Showing the love of Christ is in accordance with the truth of the gospel.  In retrospect it seems that George was more interested in making people aware of his profound insight into the deep mysteries of God than he was with showing the love of God which surpasses understanding.  

Arthur

Ok, so am I the only one who didn't think being called brother was weird?  Heh, well, call me strange then.  To me it meant something more than just a title.  Like most things in the assembly, something that was good or potentially good was misused.  Well, if I call any of you brother or sister, please know it means I love you in Jesus. :)

As far as making decisions, I agree.  One of the joys of life is to be free to make decisions for yourself. It's the difference between being a child and being an adult.  I remember as a child wanting to grow up and mature and be like an adult--we all do, it's a good thing.  But man wouldn't you know it in the assembly growth is choked rather than promoted.  It's suffocating. I'm so glad I'm outta there.

When in the SLO Assembly, I lived in a worker's home.  One day she sat us sisters down and told us that we needed to start addressing the leadership as "brother" so and so.  Then, the kids had to start doing it.

Get this: once I left the Assembly, I ran into a "saint" and his kids.  He said, "Say hello to Eulaha"!  What happened to the "sister"?  I guess once you leave the Assembly, you are just plain you again, so brother or sister attached!

Ok.  Here is what I know about the start of calling people Brother and Sister so and so.  

In a worker's meeting, a worker brought up the need for respect by the children for adults.  The complaint was that the children were to familiar with the adults.  That worker (I won't say the name because I have not verified it with someone who was there) said when they were children they called their parent's friends and adults at church Mr and Mrs so why not here.  George said that we are all part of the family of God so we call each other by our first names.  We are on first name basis.  Then it was suggested that the children call the adults "Brother _____" or "Sister _______" instead, like George was called.  This would be a sign of respect.  After all familuarity breeds contempt, right? It was also decided that if you were especially close with a family you could tell them to drop the "Brother" or "Sister"  just like when you were a child and some of your parent's friends told you, "Oh don't call me Mr. ______ just call me Jim."  It was agreed to and implemented immediately.  I remember when my mother came back from the meeting and told us it was going to start.  I was 17 at the time and so it was a little awkward for me.  A lot of the time I would not call people Brother or Sister just because I was so used to calling them by their first name.  Also since I was almost an adult it was really required for me.  However, it made me very uncomfortable when the kids called me Sister Rachel.  Yech :P  I would tell them to just call me Rachel.  Some parents were ok with that and others would insist that their kids call me sister.  At the beginning it seemed to be taken very lightly, unless you were talking to George.

Rachel

I'll try to tell the story of the couple's meeting where this was foisted on us for the first time in SLO, Tomorrow!

I can't keep up with this BB anymore!  ;D This thing is an animal!

Brent

Hi Greg

I remember these two books. They were on the booktable for a while, then they were yanked, hard.  People used to playfully mock one another by calling  a bro. "Tender Warrior."  The books are not too good, not too bad, but they do say stuff like, "Love your wives, be kind to them, don't dominate them."  You know, really bad stuff like that.

I'm not sure why David G didn't like them....

Brent

Hi Greg, Brothers, Sisters, etc.
   I am not familiar with the book on Boundaries that you mentioned, but if it is what I think it is about it wil be very valuable for the recovery of those who have been in groups like the Assembly.
   Why don't you share some of the principles that you are learning from the book and we can discuss them here.
                                 God Bless,  Mark

Do you remember GG's early transcripts?  A solid color cover.  Spiritual Perfection came out as a white cover with black lettering.

For the Chicago booktable, we had 4 categories of books (outside of GG's which I always called "transcripts").

#1 Bibles, black lettered KJV, (other translations fell under the "fad" category)

#2 Historic/Classic Christianity

#3 GG recommended books that had some false teachings in them, but they were still "Heavenly Vision"
I had a special stack of these that were not allowed on the booktable, but I had to keep in stock for when GG recommended them. :P

#4 Fad books -- I would often order books because an itinerant brother recommended them.

I always thought we were trying to provide a broad range of conservative Christian literature so we would understand what historically has been taught and to keep us from getting "tunnel vision", not to replace the scriptures.

If a brother told me a book should not be on the booktable, to me that meant I only put it out when the brother who originally recommended it was in town. :)

And let us not forget !  I had that book memorized I think.  I think what Mrs. Fugate had to say was valid, but of course Betty chopped it up and messed with it to make it out to be more than what Mrs. Fugate was saying...is anyone surprised? ;)

OOPS! :o

The name of the book is The Other Side of the Garden...I don't know what I did on that last post to make it come out as it did... :o

Hi Eulaha,
One of the thing I love about this BB is that you can go back and correct your mistakes (don't we wish we could do that in life). Just login as yourself, and hit the modify button.

The way all the highlights and fonts work is it simply generates the start [ u ] and end tags [ /u ] and you type or paste the text between them.

Normal windows behavior would be to select the text and hit the underline button, but here that would wiped out the book name and just leave the codes for underlining.

Joel 2:25  And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten

I know this post is going to sound a little bizzare but I am only putting it in here because it is true and because I think it goes to show what level of weirdness I was living at and was willing to over-look when in the assembly.

I know many of the former assembly members have told me that they were taught the following:

• The reason we didn't have "best friends" in the assembly was because we did not want to be exclusive so we didn't have exclusive relationships.

However, my experience was much different.  When I was 14, I spent a summer at my grandparent's house.  During that time, I became relatively close friends with a daughter of another Leading Brother in Fullerton.  (that leading brother and his family have since left)  We had the usual friendship of two 14 year old girls.  We enjoyed talking about life, thoughts, etc.  I didn't have a lot of free time that summer but whenever I was at a meeting or outreach and she was there we would hang out together and talk.  My grandmother learned of this.  She thought if she gave me a teaching about best friends through Barb Zach, who I was rooming with and who was closer to my age, I might accept it better.  At least, that is what I thought at the time.  Maybe she just didn't want me to hear it from her directly.  All I know Betty gave Barb a paper to give to me to read.  Barb explained the reason we didn't have best friends in the assembly was we didn't want to have happen to us what had happened to the women in this story.  Now this may not seem so wierd yet.  However, the wierd part is the content of the story.  The story was of two Christian women.  They were adults, both married and mothers.  They were not women in the assembly.  They had a close friendship that eventually crossed the boundries of a platonic relationship  into a physical relationship.  In other words, a lesbian relationship.  

The danger of ending up in a lesbian relationship, was the reason given to me at 14, that we didn't have "best friend" relationships.  At the time, I brushed this off as just another one of "those things" that grandma said.  This did not strike me, at the time, as weird, which should demonstrate the level of weirdness I was living in.  However in hindsight, I realized that was a very strange thing for a grandmother to give to her granddaughter.

Garth also brings up a good point in his article "Escape from Lombard" about the loss of a perceived friendship with Gary when Gary became a LB.  I don't believe for a second that the reason was that Gary had more important things to do when he became a leading brother.  I was told by a worker (also a big gossip) that when someone enters a place of leadership in the assembly, that if they have any close friendships, that these are to be broken, because the other saints might resent those involved in these friendships because they were closer to the leadership.  This only showed the arrogance of the leadership and their elevated "we are better than you" attitude.  There was a definite class system.  We were just their insignificant pawns, there to be controlled by them and to serve them, but not of a high enough class to be in a close friendship with them. They had already arrived why should they associate with us.  I heard of other cases such as Garth's where friendships were ended, and people suffered deeply because of it.  They cared only about elevating their own position in the assembly, not about the flock.  This make me sick.  However the leadership was able to have close friendships among themselves (no fear of the homosexual relationships that Betty was worried about here).

I was also deeply disappointed to hear how Roger dealt with Ken Ludwig. :( Roger was one of the few people in leadership, who seemed to have a truly kind heart and had a care for the saints.  Garth's article was the first place that I heard this account.  I had no trust for most in high leadership positions in the assembly (I have been a first hand witness to lies and deceit by the leadership in Fullerton that occurred openly before others in leadership), although I was always impressed by the care and kindness that Roger showed to others and to his family.  I guess that Roger must have known at least something of the types of things that were going on because of his closeness to George.  But it is still difficult for me to have any bad thoughts of Roger.  I must stop writing now, my heart hurts too much. :'(

Rachel,

The real reason they didn't allow friendships was that GG feared that friends would support each other instead of him or his lieutenants.
They were seen as a potintial threat to "unity", control.

God bless,
Thomas Maddux

Retread,

"I was also deeply disappointed to hear how Roger dealt with Ken Ludwig."

Many times leaders would violate their own consciences in dealing with people under the direct orders of El Magnifico.

Roger probably hated what he was doing, but did it anyway because to refuse would cost him his special relationship to GG.   Sad isn't it.   GG took normal human desires, ie, to be respected and liked, and twisted them into tools for control.

Many suffered.

God bless,
Thomas Maddux

Dear Rachel,
   Betty's weird letter may explain a repressed malady she had herself?  Her seeming hatred of women may reveal a key to understanding this same repression?
   Dark sin left hidden in the heart can produce some very weird behavior indeed.
                                        God Bless,  Mark

Mark C -

You asked about "Boundaries" which I've read, but I feel there are other, better ones out there.  So, here's a few:

• Safe Places by Stephen Arterburn, Frank Minirth, Paul Meier (don't let the Minirth-Meier name keep you from it)
  
• Bold Love by Dr Dan Allender and Dr Tremper Longman III - this is an incredible, life-changing book
  
• Transforming Grace by Jerry Bridges

The two books that had the greatest impact on my own personal life were another two by Dr. Dan Allender.  The first, The Healing Path, would be great for anyone who has any pain in their lives.  What do we do with the pain?  Get over it?  Ignore it?  

A book I would recommend for any woman (or man) who has been abused, be it sexually, physically, verbally, or emotionally, would be The Wounded Heart, again by Dan Allender.  There are study guides for both books.  Both books are excellent at driving deep into your soul, giving the vines a pruning you'll never forget.  Is it all about Dan Allender?  Nope, but he's all about the Lord.  

I'd recommend any of these books.

Back in my mid-highschool years I served as a doorkeeper in training  for the champaign assembly. One day at the doorkeepers mtg, an LB told us he wanted to have a seperate meeting about failures in  the doorkeepers ministry. At the meeting he began by saying he wasn't going to rail, then proceeded to  rail for half an hour straight about why being 5 minutes late and not having all the chairs set up correctly disappointed the Lord.
At the end of the meeting it was agreed that instead of getting to the meeting house at 6:30 or 6:45,  we would be there at 6:00. I was running cross country at the time and so this was not possible as the practices ran late. This greatly disappointed them.
A few Sundays later, I failed to  prepare ministry and one of the doorkeepers exhorted me for it. the next Sunday  I prepared something, and  was exhorted again because it didnt have three points.
And who can forget being exhorted as a teen to start a Bible Study on campus! I always envied those who could pull  this  off and have "hundreds" of visitors. I was scared out of my mind to do something like that as a teenager. I had enough problems!
All that wheel and line stuff with the flags and mountains and valleys and spirit and soul and body never made any sense to me. We were exhorted to literally repeat the Selfers Prayer every time we felt self getting on the throne, and this was at 12 years of age! I dont know if AKs have a full idea of how much this teaching has damaged and straightjacketed them-- I am only beginning to come to some understanding.
                           Nate

Dude, that's messed up.  I'm glad I never tried for doorkeeper.  I've had one little similar experience. I helped with the sound system when I was in Fullerton.  One Sunday before the meeting I was placing the cord underneath its runner and then rolling up the remaining cord.  A lb walks by and says in a harsh voice "Make sure you roll up that cord and keep it of the way. We need to keep things clean in the house of God." This last sentence he said in a manner as if to imply that it was something so sacred.
I thought, "Man, what fruit tree did you fall out of?  You probably had problems with certain retentions when you were a child.  Sit down and take a stress pill."
It was common for dork-eepers to forcefully tell single bro's to do something that they were already doing. A single bro would be moving a chair and a doorkeeper would come up and say, "move that chair."  
Uh..hello?! Du-uh.

Arthur,

Being  a doorkeeper where you had to be accountable only 3 times
a week pales in comparison to someone that has lived in a training
home. Someone that has lived in a training home has experienced
more than matthews.

Nate,

I had a good response. But the "gods" trashed it.

Dude, they totally "messed" with you. Keep your
relationship with the Shepherd - nothing else matters.
If noone else makes it to the end of the race, what
matters is that you keep your eyes forward and
break the tape at the end of race.

Here's one -- I wouldn't call it a "teaching", because I know of no one that followed it (or ever admitted it).  But it seems fit for this thread.

Did anyone think it was a bit strange (I could use many other words) that Mike Z had his kid's rooms bugged so he could listen to their conversations?

I always thought that was crossing the line of 'parental authority' -- I'm not sure how I would take it if when I grew up I found out my parents had my room bugged my whole life ....

(you gotta wonder now if it was only the kid's rooms, or was it every room in the house??)

Ken, that is creepy!  And an invasion of privacy.

How about this one:  when I lived in a training home, we were not allowed to use a cordless phone.  If we wanted to make a call, one had to make in dining room, so the whole house could hear one's conversation.  I guess the head steward figures that if we had to make the call in the presence of others, it would cut down the tendency to criticize the Assembly...

Cristina, do you know what I am speaking about?  You and I lived in the same training home...

Here's an oldie:

Not being able to go into a brother's or sister's house if you were of the opposite sex unless a leading couple was there. Other couples didn't count because they didn't have spiritual discernment... Anyone remember that in the SLO assembly?

Heide

Yeah Heide,
I remember that one.  I was watching Brent and Suzie's first baby.  My roomate was home with me and my fiance came over.  My roomate didn't tell me to my face that it was wrong to have my fiance over because we did not have a married couple of good standing in our home - now who would that married couple of good standing be?  There were only 5 married couples in the assembly at the time, David and Judy,  Jeff and Nancy,  Tom and Sally, Greg and Marcie, and Eric and Sheila.  

No, instead of my roomate confronting me face to face about having my fiance over with no married couple, she went to the leading brothers.  She probably asked them if it was okay in a question format.  I got reprimanded.

See the game?
 
Well the game is over!

You know, the conscience is a good thing!  I don't know why I fell for not following my conscience.

If you had followed your conscience Fighter, you would have been out of there long before I ever left! Or not. I think you need to talk more and especially tell us about your fiance. Things you went thru in your engagement. Especially how you were to behave in your newly wedded life....

Or lets go back even further to the puppet ministry. Who was in charge but.... Who did we listen too? Michael or James because they were men???

I was just reminded of the teachings on women and modesty for meetings, especially Sunday morning.

I remember Roberto telling a sister after Sunday morning worship that she looked too nice! She was married and had asked her husband if her outfit was ok to wear, he said she was fine. The sister told Roberto her husband had said it was ok and he should talk to her husband. At that point I left. Imagine dressing to nicely to come into the presence of the Lord. Here I thought we were suppose to bring our best! But, remember this comes from a man who wears the finest suits while his wife looks like she has on a sack cloth.

Also what was up with the wierd teaching of keeping your wife pregnant at all times. Even if it is detrimental to her health. I saw women give birth and within a few months be pregnant with the next child. Is it more important to have children than a healthy wife?

Heide

Heide----

I think the  reason women were pregnant all the time is
because there was no television to watch.

--Joe

  Our 3 kids were born within 4 yrs.  They are our greatest blessings. Our first-born was a honeymoon baby, which is pretty normal in the assemblies but is very uncommon elsewhere.
  As a couple, we were never specifically forbidden to use birth control; but there was a time in SLO when the theme was trusting the Lord & using birth control was specifically mentioned as a way NOT to show our faith in God.  After all saints, you should trust the Lord for 1 or 8 kids, right? What's the difference?  As any parent will tell you, there's A LOT of difference.   ;)
  One of the LB, whose wife was almost constantly pregnant, was well-known for his view on the subject.  I dreaded having him ask me when I would next get pregnant.  Even with a newborn, it was assumed that a mom would soon be expecting again...  "Sister, are you getting ready for your next one yet??"  
   One of the leading couples (workers) passed a copy of a Full Quiver book around & couples were expected to look through it.   After reading it, the logical conclusion was supposed to be that if you really trust the Lord, you'll not use birth control. Also, the husband was the head of the home so even if the wife had a different opinion, the husband had the final say.  Therefore, in the mid-90's, there was a baby boom in many of the California assemblies.  
   I believe the Bible when it says children are a blessing from the Lord.  I think each of those kids were gifts from God.   However, it's sad to remember what it was like for many of the young assembly parents.  There was an intense amount of pressure to be on board, have your kids be mat-trained & on schedule, etc.
     I remember looking around the room during mtgs & seeing exhausted moms. Many were pregnant & already had 2 or 3 little ones.  A baby would make a peep & many eyes would turn around to see what was distracting them from hearing from the Lord's voice.  Yipes.  There was a lot of pressure & not much grace.
    An interesting sidenote would be a conversation we had w/Judy G. in 1999.  There was a wknd of couples mtgs & I asked her outside about the birth control issue.  She said not to worry, it was just another passing trend through the assembly.  When we asked her what she meant, she explained that in the 70's & 80's,  Betty advocated completely the opposite point of view.  That's why many "older" saints only had 1-3 kids.  The couples were told that you can't really serve the Lord with a bunch of kids, so back then, birth control was OK.    Obviously, Betty's viewpoint changed, she passed along her opinion & there you have it!  
    I'm glad to be at a church now where there is a wide range of families.  There are adopted kids, foster kids, some families with 1 & some with 8!  The difference is that the parents made a choice before the Lord.  Moms & Dads need encouragement & support, not harsh treatment & condemnation.   It's really no one's business but the parents and how they are led by the Lord.   :)

You know that is really true about Betty changing her mind on the birth control issue.  Our kids were born between '68 and '79.  We have four.  Three girls two years apart and a little surprise after a hiatus of 7 years.

When Caryl was pregnant with Joy, our third daughter, GG said to me "Brother, you are really going to have your hands full with three kids".  Meaning: "I don't approve of what you did".

Well, we are sure glad we did it.

Thomas Maddux

Sisters always wore dresses to prayer meeting. I remember someone telling me that if you wore a headcovering then you should have a dress on. ::)  If a sister who was new wore slacks to worship then eventually she would be spoken to about it.
Shortly before GA.com became common knowledge several sisters in Champaign began to occasionally wear slacks to prayer meeting because it was COLD outside. One of them even wore pierced earrings!  8) What a rebel.

First Sister's House in SLO: You were suppose to spend more time on your knees then in front of the mirror. We had to eat healthy, we all had to have dinner at the same time, couldn't talk at the dinner table if it wasn't godly, after dinner always had to read something and have a godly thought, had to attend all meetings, couldn't have your own bedroom so two bedrooms went unused. There was no forgiveness so you got consequences.

Ok, there were some good times, like when someone put laundry detergent in the dishwasher...

No talking at the dinner table!  Wow, during dinner at the brother's house where I lived we were encouraged to talk about how the Lord had blessed us that day.  Maybe brothers just need more encouragement to talk then sisters do ;D, or perhaps the assembly leadership wanted to keep sisters quiet :(.  Not all of our dinner conversations were of a spiritual nature :o, I remember GG telling jokes during dinner ::).  Of course all of the brothers laughed along with GG at his jokes ::).  All eyes were on GG whenever he had dinner with us (it was as if the brothers worshipped him :P), and of course GG loved to show how clever he was. ;)

this is in response to rachel's post about best friends and barb zach.  it was funny b/c i had just talked to my mom about this.  i remember when barbara got home from summer school that summer and i went to her house for dinner and bible study.  she told me that she had gotten in trouble with betty for having a 'best friend' while at summer school and had to stop hanging out with her.  i thought this was so wierd and said so.  boy did i hear it!  barbara told cheryl that i had, god forbid, spoken against betty, and i was strongly admonished.  i think i even had to apologize to barbara and then they told my mom.  very odd...

Does anyone remember the teaching about reward and inheritance being a corporate thing?  I'm thinking of the notion that where you are "in fellowship" geographically now will determine who you are with when you all appear before the Lord on some future reward ceremony Day. In other words, don't leave the assembly in Annandale, for instance, or you'll be AWOL at the judgement and miss out on any rewards. It sounds crazy even as I type this, but I know this was at least strongly implied in the ministry.
Still sorting things out-
Becky

That is weird! And new to me.  Does it have something to do with the teaching that the state your body is in when you die will be the state it is in when you are resurrected?  Hmm...kinda makes you not want to be cremated.  

I don't remember it ever being taught like that, where Geography mattered.  

However, I do remember that it was of utmost importance that we be in fellowship in the exact local gathering that God wanted, and that our "living situations," be precise.  The local Assembly was the peculiar instrument that God was using to prepare His bride, and we would foreit a part of our inheritance if we weren't totally in the center of God's will.

I lost mine when I left, and only got it back when I was "un-excommunicated."  ;)

The inheritance teaching that GG foisted on us is the reactor core that powered his counterfeit ministry.  Study it, ask questions, and make sure that it is clear in your mind!

Use grace as the lamp to illumine this dark teaching, and expose it.

Our inheritance was won for us by Christ Jesus.  If He was willing to die for us, while we were still His enemies, how much more, now that we have been reconciled to Him, will He not give us all things in Christ?

Romans 5:8  But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.  9  Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.  10  For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.


Brent

Geographically was probably the wrong word for me to use. It is more like what you said, Brent.  Missing out because you left "where God has placed you". I am studying! It's great. Thank you.
Becky

We just wanted to encourage everyone to read Mark Campbell's article called "False Holiness" on the assembly relections website.  We just found it a few days ago, although it seems it's been there for a while.  We think it should be required reading for anyone examining assembly doctrine and practice, & especially for those still meeting in an existing assembly.

the Wiesers

"People accuse us of always saying the same thing.  The early Christians received the same accusation, 'Everybody always says the same thing.' "

"The early Christians were considered to be a cult of Judaism.  It was known as 'The Way'. "

--David Geftakys defending the assembly from those who would say that it is a cult.  Sounds convincing, doesn't it?

1) Not allowed to have your own opinion, if you did and it was not what everyone else believed, you had to align yourself to the right person.

2) Robot response of "Amen" when George was preaching.

3) You had to be 'friends' with everyone. Allow 'everyone' into your home. No playing favorites. If someone called to borrow something and you said no, be prepared for another phone call from a LB...

4) Babysitting is free if you are a LB. I wonder is this is something a LB would have to repent for? Exploiting the brethren for personal gain..... hmmmm

Heide

Sebastian,

Once, many years after leaving the assembly, my wife and I were strolling on the campus of Cal State Fullerton.  I was a warm summer day in July.  

We saw some small groups of people dressed up in coats and ties or ankle length dresses.  We commented that they were oddly dressed, and that although they were eating lunch on the lawn in the shade of small trees, they must be miserably hot.

Then we realized...it was the "Saints" having lunch at the July 4th Seminar.  

Thomas Maddux

Greetings Tom:

This little vignette illustrates what wasn't a publically declared doctrine, but was a result of deep biblical teaching  ::) and hours of thoughtful meditation  ;). I believe it was based on Be ye conformed to each other (KGV) or something to that effect; but I can't find the reference just now-it must be in there somewhere ???!!
   Anyway, a gal at my workplace mentioned to me that she met someone from my church who was out preaching. She actually asked him if he knew me. My question to her was how did she guess that? She replied that "we both talked the same." That bothered me....

This may not be the best place for this post, but I do not like starting new threads.

Someone made this comment about Chapter Summary method of Bible study:

This method is a means to lead others into the subjective
interpretation of the Bible and away from orthodox teaching (heart knowledge instead of head knowledge).  We of course understand how all this works, but simple Christians are easily led into the "deeper" methods that GG taught vs. "the shallow teaching of the fundamentalists."

Any comments??

MM

I recently purchased and am in the process of reading How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth by Fee and Stuart.  It was recommended either on this BB or the GA site.  My evaluation of CSBS is that we spent too little time determining what the passage under study was really saying.  As a result, it was easy to draw false conclusions and applications to our own lives.  Much of GG's teaching is based upon what I now believe to be this type of poor study of the scripture.

John

Hi Marcia and John! :)
  The answer to Marcia's question is in the book that John mentions in his post, "How To Read The Bible For All It's Worth."  This book deals with faulty Assembly assumptions regarding how to study the Bible.

  To address Marcia's specific mention of "chapter summary":

  This style of "study" is devotional in nature, and while there is nothing wrong in this of itself, it is the Assembly view that this is a complete method of hearing God's voice.  Please consider a couple of quotes from the above mentioned book:

 The concern of the scholar is primarily with what the text meant; the conern of the lay person is usually with what it means.  The believing scholar insists that we must have both.  Reading the Bible with an eye to its meaning for us can lead to a great deal of nonsense (can we say 7th day creation of man?) as well as to every imaginable kind of error--- because it lacks controls.  Fortunately, most believers are blessed with at least a measure of that most important of all hermeneutical skills--- common sense.---- The Biblical texts first of all mean what they meant.  That is, we believe that God's Word for us today is first of all precisely what His Word was to them.  Thus we have two tasks:  First, to find out what the text originally meant; this task is called exegesis.  Second, we must learn to hear that same meaning in the variety of new or different contexts of our own day; we call this second task hermeneutics.---- To do both tasks well should be the goal of Bible study.
   Chapter summary excluded the first principle discussed above of exegesis.  This is why our chapter summary times were a pool of human emotions that we interpreted as the voice of God to us.
  The Assembly ministry followed this same pattern as the preachers used the chapter summary devotional style to receive a message.  This is why almost all Assembly instruction was either exhortative (get with it saints!) or encouragement (with God all things are possible!).  There is a place for the above in preaching, but the primary goal of building up the saints is achieved by Biblical instruction.  Exhortation and encouragement should follow proclamation of the truth.
   There is more to say on this, but if any are interested I again recommend the book.   God Bless,  Mark

Greetings MM:
In my opinion CSBS format isn't in and of itself a bad way to go if the study leader has the ability to give the context of the particular chapter as it relates to the book as a whole; and as time allows to the rest of the Bible. In other words, to paraphrase John, what are the Scriptures actually saying here? What is the burden of the writer?The burden of the preacher is only secondary. I think that in the assembly, at least, our approach cd. be called mystical biblicism. This is another example of geftakys poisoning the well. We mostly ended up with a bunch of proof-texts that "confirmed" the Assembly emphases.

Prior to the assembly, I was in a church that used topical books for their bible study. They also had another book for personal daily devotions. These were great tools for me until I went to a chapter summary. It was explained that when we do CS we need to know what does the chapter SAY before we determine what it MEANS in order to gain accurate understanding. This was liberating for me. The books we used for bible study and devotion always lead the readers to the same end. There was no personal meaning and application. This is what the bible means and this is how it applys to everyone. I have seen a lot of that in denominational church. The CS was a breathe of fresh air for me. For the first time God spoke to ME while I was praying over the chapter.

The church we attend now handed out bible study booklets. I was almost floored when the outline for each bible reading was Theme, Teaching, Meaning, Application.

Chapter Summary has been around a long time.  It would be interesting to find out where it originated and when.  It is almost a common sense kind of a thing so people were probably doing it shortly after, or even before, the scripture was cannonized.

I extracted this from an email sent to my husband and myself by Mark C:

  Chapter summary was an idea that GG stole from the Navigators, a college discipleship group, that was used to challenge college students into a serious call to discipleship (GG never gave the Navigators credit for his use of their idea either; claiming it was all his idea BTW).  The study was never meant to be a total and comprehensive means for Bible study, but it was limited to small group devotions and intended to challenge young people.  This group did develop some problems that the leaders readily admitted and corrected, and these problems were attributed to this single focus on God's call to discipleship vs. a balanced view of life under grace.  One of the leaders, Jerry Bridges, wrote a great book on grace to counter this imbalance.  In this book he admits to his former errors and cautions those who focus on discipleship to the exclusion of the truth of the grace of God.
   There is nothing wrong with studying the Bible in a devotional manner, as the Chapter summary method provides for, but without understanding the important safeguards mentioned above such study will distort the hearing of God's voice.
  The question may arise, "why can't I just come to my Bible on my knees and hear God's voice directly speaking to me?"  A desire for a spontaneous kind of immediacy in our life with God can actually become an emotional means to connect with God vs. a walk of faith that is based on a firm conviction of the absolute truth of scripture.  Granted, it is a subtle matter, for there is an emotional component to our lives with God, as well the reality that we live in God's presence as Christians.  However, it is my clear understanding of what the Bible teaches re. the essential truths that should control my life and through which the Holy Spirit speaks to us.


MM

It is time for me to come clean after all these years.  I cheated on chapter summary bible studies many times while in fellowship.  I herby acknowledge that I:

1) Cheated on the teaching party by simply copying how my bible had previously broken down the chapters.

2) Cheated on the meaning parts by going to Chaptersummary.com and purchasing meanings off of the internet.

3) Cheated on my memory verses by writing down the verse on a note card, and then discreetly stapling it to the back of the brother or sister who sat in front of me...

Guilt consumes me on a daily basis.  Perhaps I should call Tim Geftakys and he can bless me with his massive intellect when giving me counsel.

Yeah, I've heard that bit about it being from the Navigators.  It was around before that though, I would imagine.

What would I call this post?

"Chapter Summary and what it meant to me"

Post teaching:

What chapter summary actually was and how it affected me.

Post meaning:

Chapter summary was something that was "required" when in a brothers house. Often it was filled with pride, and the meaning was a search for symbolism rather than practicality.
It filled you with much Head knowledge, but unfortunately did not lend itself much to cultivating the fruits of the Spirit.
In Leviticus I learned what all the furniture in the Tabernacle "symbolized", but it did very little to cause actual spiritual growth in Christ in humility or love towards others. I became just as "ingrown" as the Assembly was due to this.

Application:

Read "How to read the Bible for All it's worth"and learn from things which are right in front of my nose in the Bible. Flee mysticism and "deeper teachings" and love the "simplicity" that is in Jesus Christ. Thank God daily for delivering me from the bonds of legalism found in the Assembly.

Memory Verse: "Jesus wept" (John 11:35)--I can really remember this verse instead of forgetting it a few moments after I recited it in a meeting. And it really reminds me of who Jesus is.


--Joe

Very good, Joe.  But you forgot a post break-down in the teaching.  

Arthur---

You're right. I forgot the post break-down. I'm such an idiot. I'm totally worthless. The Lord asks me to do a Post Summary and I can't get it right!! This is probably going to mean extra stewardships. But I deserve it. I'm such a failure--it makes me wonder if I'm really a Christian at all.
I'm really going to get a "talking to" for this. Maybe next time I'll get it right.

I've got to go now and ask for forgiveness for this.

--Joe

I don't think I see enough dust and ashes.  Are you taking this lightly?  This sloppy postage summary isn't worthy of the cheap Taiwaneese rice patty keyboard with which it was typed.  Do you want the kingdom or don't you?  We've been fed the finest of the wheat through freshly prepared meals from the kitchen of heaven all these years and yet I'm afraid that some of you may still not make it.  
"The kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force."  Do you honestly think that you can slay the evil forces of darkness with a sloppy postage summary?  Get on your knees and repent now.  Weekend pass revoked!  

You forgot something else too, Joe.  Did you invite somebody?

Now you're toast!  Give me 7 hours of consequences counting every occurence of the word "the" in the Bible (and you can't use a concordance).

The Lord bless you, brother.  Rejoice in the Lord and do your consequence with a good attitude.

Jack

I remember David Geftakys (DG) preaching in SLO back in 1987 (a few months before I left) about how the wife is to do anything that the husband wants her to do, even if it is sinful.  This was followed by how the husband is allowed to beat his wife.  He then indicated some scripture as an attempt to justify his statements.  There were no "Amens" in the crowd to indicate agreement.  My thought was, what kind of church is this where the leader is trying to justify spousal abuse with scripture?  I guess we didn't need to investigate what was going on behind closed doors in the DG household because he was preaching it openly at our faces.  Then there was the sound of DG loudly spanking one of his children in the bathroom of the Campus Motel conference room, so that everybody outside can hear while somebody else was preaching.  So, when he wasn't abusing his wife in the bedroom or spanking his children in the bathroom, he was preaching to us in the conference room about making his family miserable and how the scriptures justify it.  This was about 17 years ago.  

I'm amazed that the large group of people, many a lot smarter than me and making more money than me and owning yachts that I could never afford, remained for so long after this teaching.  Goes to show the power of the brainwashing techniques that this group uses, and apparently continues to use.

Dan Fredrickson

Hi Dan

As the guy with the yacht....I didn't have it back then....I can definitely say that you are correct about the power that the group held over its members.   Indeed, what fools we were to listen to all that!  I heard it too, and did nothing about it until much later.  

Funny thing is so many want to say,  "We didn't know!"

Brent

No surprise that David Geftaky's tutelage produced some of the most despicable specimens among the leadership posse of George Geftakys.
Has a more tragic picture of total emasculation ever been painted than in this post? Why were not the MEN in that assembly having a little chat with this slug out back after that message?
How fitting that the depth of the putrefaction was ultimately uncovered by Brent and men like Kirk- it had to be more than any man sporting a pair of functioning cojones could take. Anybody and everybody still defending, participating in, or excusing this perverted, polluted and demon-promulgated system of depravity deserves fully what is coming to them - No Exceptions...
Verne

Brent,

I'm sure glad you stuck around and blew the whistle when the time was right.  I took the easy route and just ran away.  Congratulations on getting a nice boat, and helping destroy the assembly so you could spend some time enjoying it.

Dan

pg 29. The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse by Johnson & VanVonderen

Spiritual abuse puts people at odds with their best Friend. It causes some people to question, doubt, and even run the other direction from their Source. They see their strongest Advocate as their biggest accuser, their Ally as their enemy. For some people, spiritual abuse can have eternal consequences.

Good thread to revive, Marcia!

I have this theory, just a thought, really.
And it's this:  shame.  I was reading: Gen 2:25  "The man and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame."
Shame was a wonderful weapon for those in power to use.  I see it more as time goes on, that false shame that we were made to wear if we questioned, or 'lived' or even 'stepped' just a moment out of the cruel and unusual expectations of our leaders in the assembly.  
My daughter had a dream last night.  She was crying so I woke her up and held her and she told me she was forced to wear a diaper to school (she's 8, nearly 9) and I held her as she cried.  Shame.  "And everybody knew!" she cried.  Shame, I thought.  Where did that come from?  And I assured her no, that won't ever happen and how much I love her and I got her a tissue and she held me and went back to sleep.
And, I was reading  in Gen 1:27 that God created us in His own image, something wonderful, something honorable.  So where did this shame come from?  Especially since the 'finished' work of Christ is to take away any shame of sin, why was shame such a controlling factor in the assemblies, among people who claimed to be no longer 'eating with the pigs?'.

I think it's telling about an abusive person, parent or leader or otherwise: if he/she uses shame to control another human being, that's got to be the most deceitful tactic, the lowest you can go.  Shame, when we were intended for dignity.

Delila

Hey Delila. you turned the page; unless Gen 2 is on the first page of course. ;)

I love your comments on shame, and agree with you.

I was reminded of this thread because of something I read in Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse by Johnson and VanVonderen on pgs. 87&88

quote--
Matt 16:24 and 1Cor 15:31 have been misused in order to place a performance weight on people in the name of self-denial.  In addition, "taking up the cross" in an abusive system usually turns out to be an attempt to get followers to take up the agenda of the leadership.

What we ought to be concerned about is directing people to the source of life, which comes from rest in the presence in God.  The Christian life does not begin or continue with the kind of self-denial that calls for doing a lot of Christian behaviors in order to check "humility" off the list.  Self-denial is crucial -- so essential, in fact, that in order to have life we must deny that there is anything we urselves can do to get it.  It is only available on the basis of the cross of Christ.  If that cross is not our "cross", if our own cross (built by behaviors and denials) is what we bear, we are in deep trouble.
--end-quote

Lord bless,
Marcia

And he needs me, right?

I’m making dinner, frying meat in taco spices, laying out the soft tortillas, the sliced
onion and red pepper.  River (now 19 months) protests behind the baby gate, reaches
his little fat hands out for me.  He wants me.  He needs me, right?  I look from the hot
cast iron pan to my son.  No, he doesn’t.  I fill his sippy cup with cranberry juice and
pass it into his fat hands.  He mutters his two syllable gibberish I take for ‘thank you’
and walks away, satisfied.  He doesn’t need me.  He needs a drink.  He’s happy now,
pulling on his sister’s snow boots and walking around like my grandmother, walking
around on the moon, on the living room carpet.  Happy.

Aha.  He doesn’t need me.  I turn back to the stove, spread pesto on the flour tortillas,
lay on the Havarti cheese, stir the meat, forget the black beans.  He doesn’t need me.
He’s happy.  He needed a drink.  He thought he needed me, but he needed a drink.
Selah.

So?  I can’t help but make connections to my assembly days.  Barred from what we
needed, from exploring our options even, waiting on the ‘Lord’ aka assembly leaders
for guidance and telling ourselves, as they told us: “No, you’re not hungry, you’re not
thirsty, you don’t need sleep. You don’t need to skip this meeting and do your
homework so you’re not up all night again.  Just wait on the Lord.”  And, had we
broken through to really seek God, we’d have seen he was there, pointing to that sippy
cup, that way out, that much needed sleep, that common sense we forsook, what we
needed.  

My son can screech.  When he wants something, it’s hard to ignore.  Screech, I call
him sometimes.  The ear drum rattles.  He does not go quietly into that good night.
He rages, until he gets what he needs.  Often, it doesn’t take me long to figure out
what that need is.  Sometimes, it’s just a good sleep and he doesn’t squawk long
before he’s singing himself a lullaby and off to dream land in his crib.  But, until I
figure out what he needs, he’ll screech.  That’s just him.  My daughter never did that.
My ear drums were happier then.  She was different.  We are all different.  I think
God is much much different than I ever imagined.

“Wait on the Lord” how many times have you heard that?  I wonder if God frowned
every time those instructions were spoken in the assembly since we were not taught to
wait on God at all.  We were taught to wait on our leaders, to check all our
understandings with them, to dull our own sense of understanding and replace it with
what the assembly taught.  And I wonder if that’s hard for those who received much
of our obedience then, those who remain ‘in the race’ for assembly power, assembly
peace, assembly assembling.  Broken, like a bunch of scrambled eggs, it is difficult
for them to see their own individual persons, where one ends and another begins,
where one exists in dignity before God and another, a whole system of others in fact,
has muted that dignity, compromised it in some way, denied it.  We looked through
the tiniest of pinholes for God’s ‘perfect’ will, edited and approved by those who
‘took care’ of the flock.  I look at myself differently now too.  

So what did God see when he saw me leaving the assembly, trying my legs, being ‘an
apostate’ because, having left the assembly, that’s what I had to be, making some
poor choices.  I think God saw me like I look at my children, knowing they’re
learning to walk, on wobbly feet.  I think God smiled.  I think it made him happy.
“She doesn’t need me to pick her up right now, put her in a ‘good church’* she needs
some sleep.  She needs to make some friends.  She needs to trust her own ability to
think again.  She needs to sort this mess out.”  God might have said, I think.

   “...For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you
   will be like god, knowing good and evil.” Gen 3:4

 I think the assembly took these words of the serpent and twisted them to mean
something even the serpent didn’t intend (though probably, he was pleased
nonetheless).  George’s teachings made almost everything sinful.  A single
‘unyeilded’ issue in your life was sin.  Your body, so broken that you contemplated
staying home from a meeting to recuperate, was sin. For a time, in some assemblies,
being sick (like Betty) was seen as spritual.  Beating your wife (like David) was
allowed, under ‘God’s’ authority.  How did we know the myriad of things that were
‘sinful’ now except that the assembly taught us this was so?  Everything was evil,
except George.  Everything compromised, but the ‘simplicity of new testament
testimony’ as found with yours truly, ‘servant of God’ GG.  And still, it is said in an
existing Canadian assembly ‘We were not influenced by George’ and ‘Stay off the
bulletin board  because people who read it leave the assembly.’ like that’s the worst
thing that could happen.  My suggestion: the opposite is likely the truth as it is in
Jesus.

I like simplicity.  I think that’s why God gave me children.  To simply love them, to
simply see that life is about growing and experiencing and thinking ‘outside the box’,
about marveling and aha moments, not about towing lines that are tightly tied around
our necks, cutting the blood supply to the brain.  If that one choice to eat that fruit in
the garden was so serious that God sacrificed himself to reconcile the human race to
God, how is it that we yet operate in boxes?  How is it that we poke around for a
‘pattern’ in the new testament and then build an airtight box out if it?  Funny how
Jesus didn’t leave directions to that affect.  How is it that we still seek out Pharisees
and priests to lay out the way back to God?  How is it that we bow, shut off our brains
and remain ‘faithful’ to a structure like the George Geftakys assemblies that were
created by an unfaithful, brutal, violent liar?  This is not simple.  This requires
complicated and dishonest ‘reasoning’ in order to pull it off, especially for so long.
This requires an auto-pilot, a barbed wire playpen built around oneself.  This requires
total erasure of the thinking mind, the honest heart: aka - death to self, in G’s dynasty.

Had I been in the assembly, I would have taken the time out from making supper to
beat my son with a stick until he stopped fussing. I would have held his mouth so that
we didn’t have to listen to the voice God gave him, the voice God gave all of us to
speak and be heard.  I would have probably have had him practice silence on the mat
and had the stick right there and handy, ready to beat back any suggestion of self
assertion, any indication of need.  The hierarchy was all that mattered, right?
Duplicity had to be upheld (obey me or I’ll beat ya!  Obey me and I’ll beat ya anyway.
I’ll beat you ‘cause I love ya, you know that, don’t you, sister?) I see things differently
now.  Thank God.  I believe I am becoming more free everyday, in my thinking, even
after so many years ‘out’ of the assembly.  It is a wonder to me.  A wonder.

My son, is very happy walking around in other people’s shoes, the bigger, the better.
I am very happy to watch him, especially dancing in them.  It’s hilarious.  I wonder if
God laughed too, the first time I went out dancing with my friends.  I know I did.  I
laugh now, dancing with my children, in our freedom dance.  We eat all kinds of fruit
too, lots of fruits and vegetables, get lots of sleep (it heals the body), talk out our
differences, seek to be honest with one another, challenge each other’s perspectives.
And of course, we love each other.  I wish this existance on all who’ve experienced
life in the airtight box.

Delila

Oh Delila,

Every time I read a post like this last one, I weep.  I weep for me, I weep for my children.  I weep for their lost innocence that I beat out of them at the direction of my leaders.  

I watch my sister parent her 19 month old (interesting, the same age as River.)  I weep.  I wish I could have parented my children with this kind of love (and she isn't even a "Christian"!)  My sister is playful with her.  She spends time with her, listening to her.  My niece is not relegated to a mat for 5  hours a day.  She is not beaten for speaking when it is a "no talk" time.  She is not beaten when she voices her needs and asks that they be met.  No, she is loved and nurtured the way parents should love and nurture.  My children never had that.  And it is such an up-hill battle to remedy the damage.  

I ask God, "When will you deal with these men and women who perpetrated this abuse for two generations?  Will my children ever hear an apology from these men and women who took their childhood away, who left them with trauma that will affect the rest of their lives, that is affecting it today?  When will things be made right, God?"  And there is no returning answer and I weep.

I dreamt last night about Mark Miller.  He came to our home and asked why we had left the one true church.  I argued with him, yelling at him all my anger about the truth that noone will acknowledge who still belongs to that evil system.  In my dream, we then went to a meeting, where I continued to try and inform the people who were continuing to be a part of that evil, wicked system, and noone would listen to me.  I woke up emotionally spent, as if this had truly transpired.  These dreams are with me nightly and they make me weep.

I am cleansing away the pain with my tears.  It is refreshing.  And I wonder, will the pain ever go away completely?

Kimberley,

     Sometimes your posts make me weep, too.  For you and your children as for my own family.
     In the early days of Fullerton, G & B often told us parents that if we beat our children for disobeying, they would "not surely die," and that "the blueness of the wound" on a child was a sign of parental godliness.  Fool that I was, I thought that welts and bruises begot by discipline were a good thing.
     My oldest (of four) will turn 35 this year, and I can still see the utter trust in her toddler eyes as she submitted herself to me for a spanking.  I spanked hard, as if I could beat all disobedience out of her.  That's how I wanted it to work-- for her sake and for mine.
     No, the pain of such memories has not gone away, and may remain until our Lord wipes all our tears away.  The pain is not a constant, as it once was, but every time the memory is stirred the pain rekindles.
     What get better are the feelings of guilt and shame.  For awhile I saw guilt, shame and pain as one huge lump.  All three are factors that the enemy of our souls can use to discourage us and to sap our strength.  But I have learned that the pain can be a good thing, like the pain that made Jesus groan in His spirit; that made Jesus weep.  It is an evidence of sensitivity toward others.
     Guilt and shame, however, need not be tolerated.  Never in His earthly ministry was Jesus ashamed or guilty.  Not everyone who heard Him and saw Him do miracles was convinced.  Not all accepted or followed Him.  But He was obedient to the will of His Father and suffered neither shame nor guilt.
     But at Calvary, Jesus took upon Himself and bore our shame and guilt, the products of our sin, and for that reason, they are no longer ours to bear.  In fact, for us to succumb to the siren call of guilt or shame is to deny the effectiveness of Christ's sacrifice for us.
     I have both made apologies and received them, and both have been beneficial experiences, but neither has offered me a sense of freedom from being ashamed of, or feeling guilty for, my sins.  Those who I followed are surely guilty of teaching me falsely, but my deeds in following them are chargeable to my personal account as sin.  My only hope of absolution and relief is in allowing Jesus to have borne my sins upon Himself and away from me forever.
     Sure, my kids all bear marks from the assembly's influence, as do my wife and I.  But in the long haul, our recovery uses our past to make us stronger, and our post-assembly influence in our children's lives far outweighs even the events of their "formative" years.  The weight of works we performed in ignorance is nothing compared to the power of Christ working in us and through us.
     When you weep, you do not weep alone, and when you rejoice, you do not rejoice alone.  Take heart.  In the world we shall have tribulation, but greater is He Who is in us than he that is in the world, for He has overcome the world.

God bless you and yours,
al

Just some passing thoughts...

Kimberley, when I read your post I thought, " 5 Hours???? Oh wow, that's why my kids weren't very good mat kids. Now it all makes sense!!!!" It isn't that I was a loser assembly mom, I just didn't take the necessary time. I am ashamed to admit that made me feel better!!! I always thought if I could just figure out what was wrong with me, if I could nail THAT down, everything would work out. So I looked at myself from every possible angle to try and get a fix on the problem. The more I looked, the more depressing it was.  

aside: I was trying to make the letters bigger so I could read it better. I hit the Capital 'A' with an up and down arrow. None of the writing got bigger and I don't know how this will look once posted. Can anyone help?

end of aside:An LBW told me once she didn't put her kids on the mat more than two hours a day. She said that "they needed time to run around and be kids".  So I religiously did not put my kids on the mat for more than two hours (max) and would be SOOO frustrated when they would need my attention during a (3 hour!!) Sunday meeting. Of course, I'm sure I lacked diligence during that two hours, but the point I wanted to make is that there is still a part of me that longs to fit the assembly mold. Southern CA saints were considered more serious, more diligent, and all-around good examples. Even now when someone from Southern CA posts I automatically consider them better than me. "Oooh - they're one of THOSE - I could never fit in with THEM". I remember thinking that a good number of them also lacked any sense of humor, but figured that's what had to happen to be really successful.

I am soooo not writing this as any condemnation against how anyone parented. It's a comment on how after 8 1/2 years AFTER leaving fellowship I can continue to have those same instant reactions and be riddled with an unsettling sense of guilt/shame. I was RELIEVED to think that if I'd just lived in a different locality, with different advice, I likely would have been more successful. THAT IS SO SICK!!!!!!!!!!!! Common sense has to reach in and shake my brain a few times to bring me to the reality of what this would have done to my kids; what this means about my willingness to follow any Tom, Dick or Harry who happens to tell me they have a better way.

Kimberley, your posts are so healing to me. I've been confused about child-rearing from the beginning. Your posts bring out the fallacy of the advice we got in a way that CANNOT be denied by anyone. These experiences can't be "outtalked". The example I grew up in was abusive, both mentally and physically. My dad tried to stop that cycle (the physical stuff that he got) by being permissive, but we all knew to avoid his anger at all costs.  We got the worst of permissiveness AND harshness. Thank you Kimberley, Delila, and Al (good comments on shame and guilt - kudos) and everyone for opening up and sharing your thoughts. I wish I had the language to really express that. You are so brave, so willing to face the challenges of learning and loving. You are my heroes a thousand times over.

Thank you. And thank you, Mary Fortezzo - if you ever read this - for your not-so-strict advice. Hate to think what would've happened if you'd said "Oh yeah, they need to be on the mat 24/7 - that's the only way to go..." :-[


Karey Thornton

tkarey - I didn't want to be diligent (and truth be told with my other children it wasn't as severe.)  But for my older daughter, I was a single mother.  I was in a home with another couple (who didn't even have children) and they DEMANDED of me faithfulness to mat times.  I had to mimic the meetings six days a week.  My only reprieve was Saturday afternoons, which I didn't have to do in order for my daughter to visit with her father (I longed for those Saturday afternoons - I felt that I was escaping prison.)  If I somehow fell down on the job and messed up one of those mat times, I would receive a consequence from this couple.

You would think this would exact obedience from my daughter and mat times would make her a stellar example on Sundays, right?  Absolutely not!  My daughter faught me tooth and nail on those Sundays.  It was her only way, I suspect, of voicing in public her hatred of those mat times.  The LB's wife who was "discipling" me regarding these mat times, indicated that it was my fault that she wasn't obedient on the mat.  I didn't make it difficult enough during the home training sessions.  My daughter would be incredibly obedient in the home with nary a wink or nod - wouldn't you if there was a switch just moments away to exact obedience?  I should have been spanking and spanking in order for her to know who was boss and that only obedience would be tolerated.

The meetings were a horror in themselves.  Since we couldn't discipline at the meetings with a switch, we were taught to hold our children.  Placing them on your lap, you would wrap your legs around their legs, wrap your arms around their body, using one hand to completely cover their mouth.  You would continue to uncup their mouth at intervals, allowing them to gasp for breath.  My daughter literally fought for her life!  I would spend most meetings in the bathroom in this fashion.  I would emerge with a limp child, who had finally given up from exhaustion, both of us dripping with sweat, having battled against one another for the better part of an hour.  This went on until she was approximately four years old.  Her formative years were spent with the one who was supposed to be her protector (me), man handling her and fighting with her for dominance.  This is the legacy I have left my daughter.  :'(

It helps to write about it.  It is cleansing to put it to paper (so to speak) to acknowledge that it was wrong and evil and that I want no part of this kind of parenting any further.  I have apologized numerous times to my children, but no apology can take away the memories of what I did for the sake of the "assembly way."

Just a quick thought:

I think it might every so often do us good to consider where this parenting 'advice' ultimately came from: George, a man who beat his own sons and ran around on his wife.  A man who reproduced himself in his son David: a monster - the ultimate child training product of the entire dynasty.

Now, look again at your children and thank God you escaped, even with your wounds.  You have your mind.  And it actually works!

That's a miracle, and no small one.  

And I praise God for all of you as well.  Those who remain assembly sympathetic still deny my story, my experience, even though the George machine is supposedly 'dead'.  So your affirmation means something too.  The truth is still the truth, regardless of who saw it, who believes it.  Still, it's nice to be believed, isn't it?

Delila

Kimberley,

I had similar experiences with my kids.  Perfect at home on the mat, but at the meetings well...  I would be sooo angry with them when they would not comply and I had to leave the meeting and miss the ministry.  Since I grew up in a dysfunctional environment, I had no faith in my own child training abilities and threw my lot in with the assembly way.  But then, the assembly, if it was truly God's house, should have been a place of healing for wounded pilgrims.  Instead it ended up being a place of further wounding for the already wounded.  Yes, I agree with Verne.  And I say shame on that couple for laying such a heavy burden on you, one which they themselves could not bear.  In Ottawa, we have often agreed amongst ourselves, that there is a double standard - one for the leaders and one for the rest.  The sad thing is, even till the day I left the assembly, after they had claimed that they had repented, a very similar child training was expected of the young Mums by the older ones.  I would speak up on behalf of the young Mums, but the problem is that I was not a LBW, and had never been a worker either, so my pleas fell on deaf ears.

When I think of the kids of the leaders who were our child training experts, I wonder if they are better off for being the 'model' kids that they were under the assembly umbrella.  Famous quote from you-know-who: Remember it's not how you begin the race, but how you end the race that really counts.

It is only God's mercy that my kids have turned out to be compassionate and caring and considerate individuals that they are today.  Oh we still have our problems, but people have problems.  And I have much to learn yet.  I trust God for the outcome of it all.

Lord bless,
Marcia

     We have been discussing the assembly version of parental discipline of children, and I wonder whether the thread topic should be Wicked Teachings.  Mat training is not a bad concept, but the extreme to which it was carried exemplifies evil.  In essence, parents were required to sacrifice their children to satisfy the high priest's greed for power and wealth.
     In the earliest training sessions, workers were told that our children were to attend public schools to be a testimony before a godless community.  Demanding perfect obedience of our children was essential to their fulfilling the ideal of that testimony.  The testimony was essential to the growth of the work.  We were to be as Abraham, willing to offer up our children to God, no questions asked.
     It was all perfectly reasonable, in principle, but carried to unreasonable measures.

     As parents, our hearts now ache for the pain we inflicted upon our own innocent children, and we are tempted to believe that the harm we did them was irreparable.  Perhaps, excluding grace from the equation, that would be so.  But grace is not excluded and, by its inclusion, the formula is elevated to an entirely different level.
     No two stories, just as no two parents, are alike.  But in common we have a sense of regret, sorrow, guilt, shame and general wish-it-could-be-done-over.  It cannot, of course, but there is great comfort to be taken in the words of Jesus, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do."  He does not hold against us those acts of ignorance...
     The Son has borne our guilt and shame, and at His request the Father has forgiven us.  Our role is to accept the gift of God, pursue our walk with Him and trust Him for the final disposition of the matter.  Our children still need us.  They need our intercession.  They need our example.  We cannot help them while weighted down by feelings generated from the past.  
     Our Lord has promised to set everything right in His time, and we can bank on that, casting down imaginations, bringing our thoughts into the captivity of obeying Him, casting all our cares upon Him.

     And what are we to do when all these things ring hollow in contrast to our feelings, and seem to be empty words?  That is when we must say, "Lord, all these things seem empty and hollow-- I believe; help my unbelief."  Because He cares for us, and will not reject an honest prayer.  He is touched by everything that touches us.  He will hear and He will answer.
     He will restore all that was lost, and He will make us vessels of our children's deliverance.  Our tears of sorrow, and theirs, will be turned to tears of joy...

     For a prime example, you need look no farther than Lee Irons, son of Fullerton elder Steve and his wife Margaret, both workers.  The only kids who are "better off" in terms of assembly standing are those who have willingly submitted to figurative lobotomy by the leadership... :'(    Thank God, Lee did not.

I think the main problem with Assembly parenting is the one-size-fits-all approach.  There were those who seemed to mat train successfully (Evans, Fords, Hinmans, Kehoes, etc.) and today have older children who are respectful and a family that is close-nitted.  Nevertheless, I have seen the same type of families emerge from denominational churches where kids are shuttled off the nursery and children's church.

As parents we are different and we bring different baggage to the equasion.  Similarly, children are different.  If you assume that strong willed children, ADD, ADHD, and bi-polar are simply indications of spiritual problems that can be cured by the mat and whip, you are setting yourself up for failure.  Similarly, if you assume that the reason the wife has trouble with the mat is because she is rebellious and the husband is passive (a condition which can be cured by exhortation along with assigned, irrelevant, consequences), you have really not taken the time to understand the person.

Kimberly, do you think an apology from me would be at all helpful to your kids?  I wasn't directly involved with them, but I did help promote the poison.  To my shame, along with Diane Miller I was also a presenter at Ginger's first definitive Fullerton mothers' training meeting where the Cycle of Training was spelled out for everyone.  

Margaret

Another spin on dysfunctional training:

I know a former assembly member who was a mother.  Mike and Cheryl Zach counseled this woman's CHILDREN to disobey and disrespect her.  You read it right.  Read it again and pause and calmly think of that.

Just when I thought it couldn't get any more twisted.  No wonder they don't want to give anything more than a "If I have wronged you I aplogize." If they really sat down to give an account of WHAT they taught and what the consequences were, I think there would be sudden chronic heart failure.

There are more voices, I believe, that will shortly be added to our discussion.

Love heals our diseases,

Delila

WOW!  Someone wanting to apologize to my kids?  I don't think it would be effective for the younger children (couldn't relate it to their own lives, I don't think.)  But my 17 year old, I think, would definately benefit.  Just someone who had been in leadership at one time taking responsibility for the evil they perpetrated would be phenomenal.  I wish someone that she is actually familiar with i.e., Mark Miller, Jim Hayman, Mike and Cheryl Zoch, or even the most beneficial would be our SF leaders; Tim McCarthy, Andrew Gunther, Mitch Schuster (including Janis McCarthy) would be even MORE beneficial.

If any of you mentioned above actually reads this post, I challenge you to be a man or woman of COURAGE and take responsibility for YOUR actions.  You influenced my daughter GREATLY and I hold you DIRECTLY responsible for her emotional state today (some more than others, of course.)  God is certainly bigger than your influence, but to be a whimp and not own up to your part in what you did with my daughter is UNCONSCIENABLE!  :'(

Karey,

I've so appreciated reading your posts throughout the BB.  I guess you and I were part of the outer circle at G St. (the Arcata, CA assembly).  Me being a single Mom and you without your husband fullly involved meant we could never truely reach the goal of perfection in our children and a perfect attendence record.

I had to post when I saw your mention of Mary Fortezzo.  She was also a great encouragement to me.  She was so down to earth and real.  She was also the only mom with a child older than mine and she had boys.  That gave her a great deal of credibility in my book.  I also sensed that the methods of assembly discipline were very contrary to her gentle heart but as a good LBW she toed the line, daily submitting her natural instincts to God leadership.

I wanted to give a little update...something to rejoice about.  
Last week I attended Mary's baby shower at 1st Baptist in Arcata.  Let that sink in.  

Yes, the very same 1st B that was constantly referred to as worldly and just providing entertainment to the young.  That assessment was always hard for me to swallow as I grew up there and my parents were faithful members.  My Mom was even the church secretary.  I maintained contact with many people in the church through my folks and was always impressed by their walks with Christ.

I remember the strong disapproval I received from the LB's when I attended Sunday morning services at 1st B to see my brother and neice baptized.

Many ex- G St.ers are now involved at 1st B including the Fortezzo family.  To me, they are a goog representation of what God can do when any of us, but especially an LB, humbles himself and puts all they had been taught and were teaching into God's hands and gets involved in a health church.

But here's the really fun part...they're having a girl!!!  I think it's nothing short of a miracle that, after five boys, they're having a girl at this time!  I rejoice for them that they will be raising this precious girl out from under the oppressive hand of G and B.

Janet  




 

Hey there Janet!!!!

I was so excited when I saw your first post a few months ago (well it was the first one I'd seen). Hey!! Another Arcatan!! Once in awhile I would call Tammy or Mary to hear a friendly voice. I remember asking after you and Tam said you'd gone to Arcata B. I'd always heard good things about that place (not from the assembly but from others). I'd forgotten you'd grown up there.  Your wedding dress was beautiful (from photo post). Is your son the tall dark one by you??? Wow, he was around 8 the last time I saw him. Please accept a belated congratulations and the best of everything for your new family. I'm so happy for you!!

 Yes, I completely agree we were in the outer circle. That bothered me a great deal and didn't improve my outlook toward my husband any. It was quite a blow when he left fellowship when Sam (now 14) wasn't even a year old. I remembered yesterday after reading Kimberley's post that he left shortly after a fall seminar. Wonder if there's any connection there! We'd also eaten dinner at George and Betty's house while down there. I remembered this because I'd done that bathroom thing at the seminar ...with a 7 month old baby. It was less intense but still mouth covering and sweating and being mortified (he didn't like having his mouth covered, imagine that, even though it wasn't new to him).  I apparently let my frustration show after the third trip to the bathroom because a woman followed me in there to see if I was ok. I could be wrong - obviously have been a lot - but it seemed she was more concerned about me stomping out of the room (we weren't even close to the bathroom) than anything else. What a circus!!!

Mary was aware of my "perfectionist" tendencies and was such a picture of grace. Her kindness and gentleness and "don't worry what people think of you" was like medicine. Amazing, amazing. I am so very happy for her and Greg at the birth of this baby. We don't talk much but I did get a funny email pix of her and her belly the other day. She was smiling from ear to ear.

Kimberley, I was speechless after reading your post yesterday. I needed Verne's vocabulary to render an appropriate reply! Glad to see he beat me to it.
Delila, I've put a mental post-it on my brain to remember what kind of family our advice came from.
Dave and Al, I'm always blessed by your comments and insights. Thank you.

Do you ever feel like a prisoner that's been kept in a cold, dark camp and now that you are free you can't stop being amazed at each blade of grass, each rising and setting of the sun?

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I am really happy to hear about Greg and Mary Fortezzo.  Greg came out to the Beach house in Huntington Beach around 1978-1979 just after I began coming out.  For a short time, we were in a little singing group called Dayspring where we tried to sing songs that set scripture to music.  We played at a few tent meetings, a wedding and probably Friday night outreaches.  I remember the first time Greg led a midweek Bible Study.  It was in John 6 and he kept talking about Christ being the bread of life and "if you settle for other things, you are settling for a stale loaf".  It was simple and sincere though I am sure his preaching has matured over the many years since.

Kathy Sullivan came out in those early beach days.  I don't know the circumstances, but her younger sister Mary began coming out later as well.  Kathy had a dry wit while Mary was a positive spark plug.  Before every Beach prayer meeting she would share with Earl Sommerville (who let the time) all the people she was praying for at her job.

The Fortezzos were very nice and gracious folks.  They were also very faithful and stable - which caused them to rise up through the ranks and eventually be sent up North.  On the good side, it means they were always a ready witness on their job and willing to work hard to see the Lord's cause advanced.  On the bad side, it meant that they towed the line even to other's hurts.

Kathy left years ago and there was the typical shunning.  She went on to a denominational church and has been on mission trips.  I hope Mary and Kathy have reconciled by now.

Karey,
     Amazed, delighted, thankful... only one who has been there could understand.  I suspect there are many on this board who do...

 :Dal

To "ex-Arcatans":

I know this is off topic, but the Arcata assembly disbanded last month.  I was talking a few weeks ago with a brother I got to know during his days as a campus worker here in Fullerton and he told me this.

Matt Sciaini

Makes one wonder Why??  Why would Mike and Cheryl counsel kids to disobey and disrespect their mother? This is contrary even to what the Bible teaches.  Was it to "train" her because she was not toeing the party line?  What was the mind that made the word of our counsellors override the Word of God?  Were we truly that deceived? and.. did the kids follow through having learned Eph 6:1, the first verse that most assembly kids memorized?  Wow! This is truly amazing!  Even now, existing LBs get away with blatant lies in order to preserve the "testimony".  It is OK to lie in order to preserve the unity.  It is OK to lie in order to preserve the testimony.  It is OK to tell the kids to disobey their parent in order to ??

Great quote:

Verne,

Yes, you are right about this. I expected that there would have been a difference made when counselling kids who were under 18.

Lord bless,
Marcia

     ...and there would have been, and was, in every case where the benefit of the individual was considered.
     But we were taught to believe that the "testimony" (the assembly) held preeminence over any other consideration, and we were to preserve & protect it at all costs.  The "preeminence" part would have been true, had our perception of what the Lord's testimony truly is been valid.  And, had it been, we would have known that Christ's public testimony could never be at the cost of the well-being of His little ones.  
     What madness, that any of us ever believed that exalting the Lord could involve harming the very saints that comprised it.  What we engaged in was, essentially, human sacrifice, an offence to God and a disgrace to His name.

     Our deliverance has been nothing short of miraculous, His forgiveness of us unprecedented among mere mortals.  Our debt to Him is immeasurable, albeit cancelled.  Let our gratitude be so as well...

Stephen, thank you!! It makes so much sense now.

Matt, that is the best news I've heard so far this year. I feel like kicking up my heels!!!!!!!! Woohooo!!!

Dave, Mary is the one who told me of the website when I called her out of the blue last March! She expressed excitement over the new direction the Lord was taking their family. A spark plug is a good picture. She brings energy to every situation. I have missed her and Greg a great deal, even in the midst of personal angst and confusion.

 :-*Karey

Human sacrifice indeed.

I remember when my health was failing in Ottawa.  I got myself all gussied up and had photos taken to send to Grama back in Estevan b/c she was freaking out.  How was it that after only being on the campus for one school year, I had to totally withdraw from my classes rather than risk missing another assembly meeting?  What came first, my studies, or the Lord's work?  And really, sister, if you'd just get your eyes off yourself, you'd be able to attend all the assembly meetings, participate fully in all the responsibilities on the campus, work a part time job and still get all your homework done in the daylight hours, not to mention your stewardships and those special outreaches and fellowships that can't be missed and nights of prayer etc etc and house meetings and still, you end up presenting your schedule, carefully colour coded to Nancy and choke as you try to explain why you can't follow it.  You don't want to be a drama queen.  You don't want to tell her you fell asleep at work, passed out the last time you were exhorted by another sister, that your whole body went into spasms the other day in the bathtub and you screamed until everyone came running, that your hands and knees shake continually.  After all, Delila, you are expendable.  The Lord's work can go on without you.  You might just be set aside.  Think about it.  What's more important to you?

Christ crucified, indeed.  Here's to freedom, Al  ;D

Delila

In truth, the Lord's work is people.  In the assembly, the Lord's work is keeping the assembly machine going at all costs even at the cost of sacrificing people.

In truth, the Lord Jesus treated each according to their need.  In the assembly people were treated as "the rich young ruler" was treated.  Of course, the double standard meant that those whom the LB/LBW was "discipling" got different treatment depending on whether it would "look" damaging to have the person/family leave or not.  But each that did not leave, remained in a state of immaturity; i.e. dependant on them the disciplers rather than on Christ.

Marcia

YES!  When my husband and I finally "Woke Up" and made the decision to leave, my husband (a man of few words), simply wrote four points as to why we were leaving as a family and we met with one leading brother and gave him these four points:

•   I do not desire to be controlled by someone who is totally unaccountable for his own decisions in daily life.

•   I do not desire to be involved in a work where decisions and plans are made secretly.

•   I do not desire to be involved in a work where the way people are treated comes second to the goal of the ministry.

•   I do not desire to be involved in a work where leadership rules by intimidation and verbal pressure, rather than faith and example.

I was only going to share the one point that clearly pointed out Marcia's point re: the Lord's work is really about people.  The work of the assembly left people by the side of the road, much like the samaritan.  However, I thought you all might be interested in the whole shabang!   ;D

Kimberley,
     Absolutely.  Thank you and Greg.

al

I don't know your husband, but I like people who are clear and strait to the point.

Kimberley,

Gee, no wonder your husband is a man of few words. Who needs a lecture when everything is PERFECTLY said in four short points? He must be a gem of a guy.

Karey

Karey,

He is a gem of a guy.  Though our marriage, for all intents and purposes, was arranged, I came out with a great guy.  And he has gotten SOOOOO much better having left the assembly.  His compassionate, kind heart has endeared me to him over this last year+ that we have been navigating the emotional waters.  And though he is a man of few words, he allows me the need to talk.

I wish that those who were in the assembly when we left could have heard directly from my husband regarding these issues.  It definately did not proceed from me and he was resolute about these four points.  No discussion, no convincing him otherwise......determined.  As I said before, he is no pansie, and that is not the way the leadership "painted" my husband.

I couldn't be more proud of him!

I finally got the results back. I  had forwarded a taped copy of a Seminar to Professor Alan T. Richmond of M.I.T. for examination. He ran tests on the tape and came to the following conclusion:

"Upon testing the sample of the taped messages, it is my conclusion that there was enough "hot air" being released into that room to lift a weather balloon 30 feet in diameter to the borders of the stratosphere. The accumulated "hot air" of the entire seven messages would provide enough steam to propel a locomotive from Los Angeles to the environs of San Francisco. Mr. Geftakys indeed seems to be a living repository of vast amounts of "hot air" that he can release almost at will--he is literally filled with it. This indeed calls for further study."--Alan T. Richmond, Phd.

I will post the results of any further tests when I receive them.

--Joe

Joe,

     Alas, my friend, I fear you are tilting at windbags...

al

My apologies for the below "attempt" at some humor. it appears, alas, that I am the one full of hot air. :D

--Joe

OK may I add one? I remember my brother telling me a long time ago that one of the reasons we need to be diligent about living a sinless life is because whatever you are doing at the time you drop dead, you will be doing when you arrive in Heaven. In other words, if you are arguing with someone and feel hateful and angry inside, and you have a heart attack and die, you arrive in Heaven hateful and angry before the Lord. The possibilities would be positively staggering . . .

Yep,

George taught exactly this, on numerous occasions.  He usually puctuated it by relating the story of how an elder dropped dead from a heart attack in the middle of a church board meeting.  The elder had been arguing during the meeting....


Brent

Another False Teaching from GG designed to keep the people in their robotic "are you rejoicing " state. Boy if it were true you'd think he'd follow his own preaching and be sure to repent, lest he be caught in the act.( I wonder if that Elder was arguing with
GG and had a heart-attack after listening to him) 

When I first heard about the "come into God's presence in the same state you die," teaching, I started daydreaming.  This was years ago, but I distinctly remember coming to the following conclusion:

The throne room,  (or wherever it is that we first meet God after death,) must be a cacaphonous, crazy place.  Every second a few dozen people pop in.
 
Some are sleeping, others are screaming in pain...once in a while there is one viewing pornography, another is yelling at his wife, until he realizes that it's God, not his wife....others are scared to death....and this goes on 24/7.

So, let's say I die reciting psalm 23, and at the same time another guy dies during electric shock torture...we both get into the Lord's prescence at the same time...the other guy is screaming at the top of his lungs....I'm barely able to whisper...seems kinda strange.

Maybe the hyper-charismatics do have it right, and there really is barking, laughing and crying in the spirit?

Brent

I was thinking the same thing. You'd really have to be dumb-struck to buy into this...Here's one I've fasted for awhile, so I order a pizza, as soon as I take the first bite, the parlour bows-up (terrorist, of course) so I'm now goin into eternity really hungry. And good thing I don't die under general anesthsia I could remain drugged for all time. ha, ha. You seem to get the picture. Summer.

Sounds like "Beetle-Juice" the Movie. (a long way off from the throne-room.)

Here's another one I was thinking about, since we're on the topic.

There much quite a bit made about how we responded to the leadership, honored and obeyed them.  They were, after all, God's goverment and as such we were to submit to them.

Without going into the way we misinterpreted that passage, I'd like to just stick to the original teaching and assume that the current members still abide in it.

Lying to a leading brother was the same as lying to God.  A person couldn't get right with God until he "got right" with his brethren, according to what we learned.  OK, I'll buy it.

George has lied to the brethren big-time.  They all know it.  How can it be that George doesn't need to get right with his brethren?  Everyone else had to in the past?

The fact is that Assembly teachings were not biblical principles, but were merely biblical views to be adopted or discarded as needed at any given time.

Meeting all day Sunday....meeting Saturday.
Make things right with the brethren....ignore the brethren and call them usurpers.
Sexually immoral don't inherit the kingdom....sexually immoral are the Lord's Servants...and EVERY CHURCH IS LIKE THIS.

Denominationalism is sin (from Sufficiency of the Scriptures), the world church is apostate....All churches have problems, ours is no different.

None of these bold, schismatic stands amounts to a hill of beans... the only thing that mattered is what suited George's immediate needs.

Brent

What matter's to GG is the Treasury Boxes. I firmly believe their was no "Lords Treasury" there, it was " Georges Treeasury" as long as he could keep everyone bamboozeled and busy with meetings and stewardships, they'd never think anything through, and figure him out. John 10 A thief and a liar, climbing in another way. Summer.

p.s. Wolves don't get right with sheep, they devour them.

This is great.  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D 

OK - the "7th day creation" subject - Outside of the fact that it doesn't match what Scripture says, what, if any, significance did GG attach to it? In other words, why was it important to change which day Adam was created? It feels like a silly question, but I still don't get it.  :-[

Let me help you out here Nightowl. In your innoncence you asked what you felt was a silly question. Under George's teaching you're not suppose to "get it." You are supposed to be awed that he saw something in scripture that no one in thousands of years has ever seen. In the assembly system you are suppose to feel like you are the only one who doesn't get it. If we were all still good assemblyites when you asked us the silly question we would all roll our eyes, look at each other and whisper, "Nightowl doesn't get it." Neither do we, but we just put you in your place so to speak.

The significance attached to it is mystical. You hear the new teaching and because you've been taught that all good Bible teaching should be applied in someway you ponder the new revelation which you are not suppose to understand. Everyone around you is attaching this huge significance to the new thing in their tone of voice. If you are a good assemblyite you will then feel as if you are doing something wrong, not just because you still don't get it, but because you can't do anything with it.

But don't worry, George will explain it to you. Forget all the lengths you went to as a college student to not work on Sunday and give all day to the Lord, now it is a sin to work all day on Saturday and you have to rearrage your whole life to accomodate this new thing. Which you do wondering for all the world why.

Nightowl, I'm not sure you want to understand this whole thing. There are many of us desperately trying to unthink, undo, unbe what we were in assembly. Those who are still in need prayer. And I think "this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting." Your brother will not listen to reason because that has been put away. He will not listen to scripture because they walk in a greater "light" than you. You know what really tweaked me most when I was in the assembly? People who loved the Lord and lived it. There were many around me and the undeniable true light in their lives was a constant annoyance. It was a good annoyance. When God finally hit me in the side of the head with a brick (He had to use more than one) these were the people I went to for repentance and understanding.

George based much of his claim to fame on having esoteric knowledge. This has been a hallmark of false teachers, apostates, and cultists for centuries. Jem is right on the money.
If the knowlede is esoteric, then you don't have it, and worse, you don't even know that you don't have it, until it is graciously pointed out to you by someone like Geftakys, or some of his corrupt disciples.
The question Nightowl raises in most interesting.
There is no remote uncertainlty about what the Scripture clearly teaches as regards the creation record.
Nonetheless, so powerful was the impact of this man on the minds of many, the question is raised as to whether or not we might be missing something.
I try not to, but I still feel great passion as I think about so-called responsible men sitting and listening to this drivel with nary a word of correction or rebuke. I can only conclude that this man had more than persuasive power.
It may be entirely possible, that the man is now so corrupt, that he is beyond feeling.
There is every scriptural warrant to support this.
When a person over a long period time lives a life of wilful defiance and defilement I think something happens to the consience - it becomes totally seared. It is the ultimate of divine sanctions - self deception.
Who can deliiver the self-deceived? The answer is no one. Apprently even God gives them up.
Verne

I'll take a stab at it as well.

First of all, I have not personally been to the Pasadena assembly, so I dont know for sure that they meet on Saturday now.  I was pretty careful to mention this in my initial posts on the subject.   However, I do have what I would consider reliable information that says it is a fact.  Please keep that in mind throughout this whole thing.

Also, I had already left the group when the "man created on the 7th day teaching began."  Yes, this really did occur, many people were there to recount it, and yes, people did sit there on several occasions and bob their heads up and down and say, "Amen, praise the Lord," when George said this stuff.

So,  here's why he did/does this sort of thing.

He needs attention, he needs to feel important, he needs to prove that he has greater insight than everyone else, and most importantly

he needs to continually comfort himself that he still has power over others  There is nothing so potent to stoke this sort of ego as making up a silly doctrine, and then watching the lemmings lap it up, change course and implement the silliness, all at one's suggestion!  When this happens, he can convince himself that he is smarter than his followers (not that hard to do really, but he still needs this) and that he is worshipped by them.  George is the central figure in their lives, their guiding force.

Another aspect of these types of teachings is that is gives members of cults something they crave in order to escape their miserable, substandard lives.  They need a grand, mystical quest.  They need something of huge importance, that is unique to them, and that transcends their below average lives...in order to feel important and secure.  It is this sort of thing that attracts people to the occult.

Ever learning, never able to come to the knowledge of the Truth. 

To me, that verse implies constant diligence in study and application, as well as an elusive goal that can never be reached.  That's the main key here, the goal can never be reached, because if it could, people could get off the treadmill at some point and.....horror, actually know as much as the guru!  That simply cannot be.  George can have no equal.  Neither could any cult leader, at any time in history.

So, it really doesn't matter what the doctrine is as long as it serves to satisfy George's needs.

Brent

Brent I am curious as to what you think George's current state of mind is. Someone suggested that he may actually believe his own hogwash. That may certainly be the case for someone who is deceived.
I am wondering if the man's heart is now so hard, that what he does he does knowinlgy, and has simply lost all fear of God and the consequences of his actions.
The man is either a complete cynic, who never for a moment believed any of the dire warnings he issued to so many over the decades, or he has lost any semblance of rationality.
Verne

p.s The last time I heard George speak was at a Midwest Seminar that Wayne invited me to several years after I had already left. I went to the meeing place at Lincoln Hall at U of I and the message was from the book of Isaiah and entitled "The Flame of the Lilly"
The experience was truly stunning. I remember literally looking around the room at the many faces to see how others were responding to what I was hearing. After about fifteen minutes, I literally was so grieved in my spirit that I could not stay and got up and left. It was sad beyond description.

Howdy,

A few thoughts.

1. It is the "deeper life" attitude that makes it possible for GG, and others, to get by with teaching this nonesense.  The scriptures, you see, are a mystical book with many layers of meaning.  Hidden numerological treasures, (straight out of Cabbalistic occultism), spiritual analogies that relate the details of the tabernacle, temple and so on to chair arrangements in the New Testament church, the foundational idea that there are advanced, super-spiritual people, (occultists call them "adepts"), who are the ones who really understand.

The key is to keep folks hoping that one day, if they continue faithfully to learn, to be adepts themselves and become a "friend of God", ie, one who has a special relationship with God which makes him/her special.

American evangelicalism buys into these ideas in different degrees, but it is widespread.

btw....I "felt led" to type that.   ;)

2. I think Brent has nailed it.  GG is really into his personal delusions.  He is probably, in his own mind, the persecuted Elijah figure, seeking the last remnant of those who have not bowed the knee to Baal.
(Read the above while humming the "Outer Limits" theme.)

3. I have some answers for you Brent, Mark C also, but paper and test time is upon me so I will only be looking in when I can catch a few minutes for the next couple of weeks.

4. But the end is in sight!!!   May 27 is graduation day.  ;D  

God willing.

Thomas Maddux

Don't it feel great? :)
 I used to thinik that after a thesis defense I would never have to take another course in my life!
I am actually thinking about getting a degree in Psychology.
I have come to the conclusion that for those of us who are disillusioned with the traditional "ministry" pathways, we are going to have to find other creative ways in which to serve our generation by the will of God.
Are you planning to teach when you get done?
Verne

I can only assume and speculate on what his current state of mind is, as I haven't spoken with him in years.

However, besides George, I have met a few other true sociopaths in my  lifetime.  One of them was a local PI attorney.  He had a big full page ad on the cover of the phone book, and advertised extensively on Christian radio.  He was tall and rather good looking, with a winning smile and a warm, energetic manner about him.  He married, and his children attended private school...seemed like decent guy.

I began hearing some things about him about 2 years ago, and soon after had 2 cases with him.  Thanks God it was only two!

On the first one, he wrote me a bad check for my expert testimony.
On the second one, he also tried to bounce a check, but I cashed it at his bank and had the manager call him while I was standing in line...he made the check good then.

He is now in jail for a massive amount of imbezzling, insurance fraud and legal malpractice.  About a week before his arrest I asked him point blank,  "Brett, is everything OK?"  He answered,  "absolutely!  things are going great!"  He was so convincing.

There are like 280 counts of individual fraud against him, and he has the gall to deny each and everyone of them, without regard for the extensive paper trail, recorded phone calls, wire transfers and the like that PROVE he is guilty.  He stands up tall in court and denys them all.

I think George is like this.  For some reason, he doesn't have any guilt or conviction about what he has done.  I'm not talking simply that he doesn't have the conviction of the Holy Spirit, but that on top of that, he doesn't have the normal sort of remorse shared by normal folk.  

He may know he has done bad, but it has no effect on him whatsoever.  Scott Peterson is the same way, by all accounts.

Sociopaths are scary people, because they can do anything, and often times do.  Thankfully, George is a cowardly, elderly sociopath, who doesn't need the money.  He has a few dozen lives to control, which should keep him happy for his remaining years,,,,unless the IRS gets the manpower to follow up on him.

One of the things George always said that was true is,  "There's no fool like an old fool."  I think that sums it up nicely.

His conscience is totally, completely destroyed.  It doesn't work, and hasn't worked for many years.

Can someone explain to me how a person can commit adultery with a "dear sister in the Lord," on Saturday, and then preach a glorious message on Sunday?  Not once, but time and time again?

Imagine if Kristin's relationship with George progressed to the next level, as it did with others.  Kristin could have had some very interesting days at work.

Dictating letters full of sickening God Talk, peppered with verses
Arranging seminar notes
booking travel plans for grand missionary trips
hearing dirt and strategizing against other members
gratifying George with sexual acts
cleaning up after the above, and getting a chapter summary in order to go to the bible study.

That's how God's Sevant lived....and we were his followers.

No more, never again.

Brent

Thanks Brent. Vivid commentary.
My rage at the man has given way to a profound sadness... :'(
Verne

Verne, Your description of visiting a seminar sounds like mine. A friend from Fullerton invited me I had left a few years before I thought ok I'll visit. It was very weird to me and I left at lunch time just had to go, had to get out of there, just left said I could'nt stay. Boy do I remember driving onto the freeway and feeling such a sence of freedom and release. This was late 80's, never have been back. Also I remember when I first left an elder from F called to see how I was doing, when I told him fine, great, he said,"Oh yeah, alot of people have a psychic release when they leave, and feel good for awhile." It sounded like a ploy to me, but yeah it did feel great to go.  Summer

How strange that an elder in the Church would use the term "psychic release".
What exactly did he mean by that?
I heard George Geftakys use the expression many times to describe what he considered a counterfeit of the work of the Holy Spirit. There was certainly nothing counterfeit about your sense of freedom. There was a real sense of oppression in that room I was in and I suspect you noted the same thing. How unfortunate it is that folk in that state could be so oblivious. There is nothing more defining about the work of redemption than the word "freedom".
The inducement to enslavement comes in many guises, and the religious guise is by far the most sinister. These people are the greatest nemesis of the child of God. Anyone who tries to in any way limit your freedom in Christ, especially apart from the clear instructions of God's word should be shunned like the plague. They are dangerous.
Verne

Which would explain why college-age students are some of the most vulnerable to cults. When we are late high school/college age, in general, we are looking for a grand cause, a high calling, or something worth dying for. It was also mentioned that cults prey on mainstream churches (sheep-stealing) and not so much the unbelieving public at large. Like they know what they have to offer will be more readily palatable to people who at least have a knowledge of the lingo. Hmm. Hadn't thought of that one. Thanks guys!

Verne, You sure have a way wonderful way with words re: iron furnace (of affliction) other thread. What that elder meant I'll never know, you may have been on trac with the counterfeit idea/false sence of security he was using. As for the oppression you felt it was probibly the quenching of the Spirit, and the curse as in Galations 1 on those preaching another gospel Paul says not once but twice Let them be accursed, it was'nt just bad lighting.   Summer.

The dynamics were different in Ottawa.  Most of the adherants were new converts, ex-RomanCatholic mostly.  The one or two who joined from another 'evangelical' background were Brethren-type or CRC.  We had vistors from other evangelical denominations visit us, but none stuck with us.  The college campuses were/are the focus of the major outreach efforts here.  The members consisted of co-workers, family connections and college students.

In Estevan many did join from evangelical churches in the community.  Calgary consisted of 2 families and 1 single sister, and then a few college students when the kids from the 2 families went to college.

God bless,
Marcia

I've heard people say that the Chapter Summary time was a helpful thing. Would somebody mind describing it for me? And the "what does it say/what does it mean/how can I apply it" approach? It sounds a lot like what we're doing in my Tuesday night Bible study, but we don't really give it a name. Is there a link to a post somewhere you can give me? (Marcia?  ;D j/k, you're the one who posted the link for me last time) This probably doesn't belong under Weird Teachings, unless of course it IS a weird teaching, and I'm just not aware of it . . .

Sure thing, night owl.  I found a couple of discussions on the topic,  one via the BB search feature and the other I had to hunt for:

www.assemblyboard.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=7cc09b31065e9afac819e524fa1fe7d4&topic=27.msg11137#msg11137 (http://www.assemblyboard.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=7cc09b31065e9afac819e524fa1fe7d4&topic=27.msg11137#msg11137)

www.assemblyboard.com/index.php?topic=815.msg21654#msg21654 (http://www.assemblyboard.com/index.php?topic=815.msg21654#msg21654)

God bless,
Marcia

The practice in and of itself is not weird, nor does it need a name.  It is a system of looking at things (scripture, life) that can be very instructive and practical.  What was weird and damaging was the way in which it was used as a control device:  not only was participation mandatory, but it was required that one produce an inspired and inspiring new view from God at each & every discussion of chapter summaries.  Those who failed at this were shamed.

Chapter summary has become just another of many legitimate practices (e.g., Bible reading, fellowship, worship, prayer...) which have been cast aside by many because of the abuses they suffered under those who used these things as measuring sticks to evaluate one's commitment and service to God.  We were conditioned, as are lab animals, to associate certain emotional consequences with certain occurences or actions.  This conditioning can weigh heavily upon us for a very long time...

al

Wow. I am truly sorry for the pain you guys have suffered through your experiences. I totally misunderstood what I had read about Chapter Summary.  :-\ I do aquiesce to your knowledge of all things historical about the Church, btw! (makes "we are not worthy" gestures) And it's reassuring to know that Arminian and Armenian are two different things.  :)

Did you like Joe's postage summary? :)

www.assemblyboard.com/index.php?topic=27.msg11188#msg11188 (http://www.assemblyboard.com/index.php?topic=27.msg11188#msg11188)

Marcia

Like many other things he preached, this approach to Bible study was not original with George Geftakys.
Some folk refer to it as the inductive method of Bible study. It is a good way to study and apply the Word of God in my opinion. Where the assembly followers went astray is that they were falsely taught how to establish what God's Word actually says and means, so consequently allowing for weird and unbiblical applications. (like not caring about what was done witih your tithes and offerings, and letting meddling leading brothers tell you how to live your life) You can still see the effect of this kind of teaching in folk today who imagine themselves erudite.
The first and most critical thing is to know what it says!  If you miss that, you are sure to fail on the other two.
Verne
p.s. It is truly an irony that the inductive method of Bible study is intended to prevent one from engaging in undue subjectivism, and fanciful and unwarranted speculation when handling the Scripture. Only a man like George Geftakys could have so perverted a methodlogy so as to produce the exact opposite of its inteded effect.
In this he certainly trained his disciples well, who then proceeded to inculcate others with this sort of nonsense.
All you have to do is listen to the way some of his proteges are still rambling on about what special insight they have...funny, most godly people I know don't spend a lot of time telling you or anyone who is willing to listen about their lofty spirituality...certainly no one on this BB that I know of... :)
Verne

Marcia - yes, I did! So, THAT'S how it's done! I didn't know whether to laugh or sit there with my eyes popping out, tho'. I also enjoyed the part about stapling the memory verse to the back of the person in front of you. In my case, I'd need LARGE PRINT or else it wouldn't work.  :o

It's from here http://orgs.sa.ucsb.edu/sont/index.htm

Anchors of the Faith

I. Overview Individual I. Overview Corporate
II. Individual Word of God  II. Corporate Word of God
III. Individual Fellowship III. Corporate Fellowship
IV. Individual Worship  IV. Corporate Worship  
V. Individual Prayer V. Corporate Prayer  


I. Overview- Individual Anchors

Acts27:29 We see from the passage that to prevent making shipwreck it took four anchors. The Disciple also has four strong anchors to prevent making shipwreck of his faith. Acts2:42 They continued steadfastly in these four things: #1 Word of God, #2 Fellowship, #3 Worship and #4 Prayer. We are called to be disciples. When we are born again we need to enter into these four anchors to learn new ways.

Acts2:42 The key to Discipleship in your individual life is continuing. They continued steadfastly . Discipleship is first individual in your daily life and then corporately, with the Lord's people. You must be a disciple daily. Luke9:23 Let him ... take up his cross "daily" and follow me.

The daily walk has two parts, "day" and "night." You need to have both morning times and evening times. Start your day by seeking him early (Prov. 8:17-21, 32-36; Psalm 57:7-11; Isaiah 26:7-9; Lamen.3:26)


Start your day with praise. Psalm 59:15-17. Not just hum quietly, but "sing aloud." Psalm 100:1-5 Singing and thanksgiving. Thank Him for who He is, for making you, for saving you, for your health ect. The psalms and a hymnal may be helpful.

Pick a book and read part of it each morning. The gospels are a good place to start. Prov. 4:10-13 The word of God will show you how to walk.

Keep a journal. Write down promises from the word of God and write down what you are praying for. Ezekiel 44:5 Mark the word so you can be reminded that the Lord speaks to you and answers your prayers.

Pray for yourself and for others. Psalm 5:1-3 Pray for the day, and pray for those you will be talking with.
Psalm 63:6-7 For night watches or evening times the key is simplicity.


Confess your sins, specifically, and believe that God has forgiven you and leave them with Him. 1John 1:9.
Thank God, specifically, rejoice over what He has done. Psalms 65:8 Write it down in your journal.
Have a brief and simple devotional reading and get a good night sleep. Prov 3:21-24 He will give a sweet sleep.
A morning time can be about 30 minutes and an evening time can be about 20 minutes.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

II. Word of God - Individual Bible Study

Acts 2:40-42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine...

The apostles preached the word of God, both from the Old Testament and they gave us the New Testament. Just as you should eat every day, so you need to be in the word daily to be healthy and to grow. He wants to make you into a true disciple, not just a professor, by continuing to follow Him daily. We read that they heard the word, they believe, and then they continued steadfastly as disciples. It is your life.


Real Disciples John 8:30-32 We see the same time sequence, they heard, they believed, and then a call to continue. Being a disciples is conditional, "if" you "continue" in my word, "then" are you my disciples indeed.
Proverbs 6:20-23 Bind the word "continually" upon your heart. The word is not a crutch, but a full body cast. It will keep you the whole day.


Equipped Completely 2 Timothy 3:14-16 continue in those things which you have learned. The whole word is given for our profit. We must let God cut deeply into our lives to instruct us in what is right. It does not come instantly. You must start every day on your knees learning to here His voice.
Isaiah 50:4 to have the tongue of the disciple, you must first get the ear instructed in the morning. Every morning the Lord wants to give you something for others.

Exodus 16:15, 18-21 it was the law of the manna that it needed to be gathered every morning before the heat of the day and you could not live on yesterday's supply. In the same way, we need to receive the Lord's supply every morning before we get into the heat of the day. Even if we only can gather a little, the Lord will use it to supply our need.


Partakers of the divine nature 2 Peter 1:2-4 He has given us more than just "great" promises. He has given to us "exceeding great and precious promises." It is by the word of God that we become partakers of the divine nature. You can tell those who are in the Lord's word, because they start looking like Him. 2 Corinthians 3:17-18 As we behold Him in His word our faces start to reflect His glory also.


con't

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III. Individual Fellowship

Acts 2:40-42 And they continued steadfastly in ... fellowship ...

In doing the other three anchors you are having fellowship with God. The word of God is hearing His voice. Worship is giving thanks and rejoicing in Him. And prayer is speaking to God. Our Lord desires us to be in constant fellowship with Him. For the anchor of fellowship we want to consider what breaks the constant fellowship with our Lord.


1 John 1:5-9 Only sin can hinder fellowship with the Lord, but He has made a provision. In Him is no darkness at all. There is no gray area. Believers can be in and out of fellowship. Fellowship is conditional. Failure do not have to break fellowship, for you can be constantly cleansed. You can not disobey God and be in fellowship, yet fellowship may be restored quickly by keeping short our accounts with God.

James 1:13-15 God tests us, but not with evil. You can be tempted and yet not be sinning. Don't let the enemy deceive you. Our Lord was tempted yet was without sin. Verse 14 shows temptation comes from our own lusts, not from the devil, but the enemy knows our heart. Things can spring up and yet not be sin. It is not the first look that is sin. It is that second look which is sin. Verse 15 shows that it is "when" lust brings action that the action then is sin. Sin brings death which is separation from God. You can sin in three ways: it is in deeds, in words, or in thoughts. Romans2:6 shows we will be judged by our deeds. Matthew 12:34-37 Every word has meaning. You will give account for every idle word in the day of judgment. Matthew 5:28 Your thoughts are an act of choice. You must choose to set your mind upon the Lord.

I John 1:8-9 Fellowship can be hindered, but we must believe God. The enemy is a liar. You never need to be out of fellowship with the Lord. Fellowship may be restored as quickly as turning to God and asking.


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IV. Worship

Acts2:40-47 They continued steadfastly ... in breaking of bread ...

Breaking of bread is worship, "remembering the Lord's death until He comes (1 Corinthians 11:25-26). The passage in Acts 2 is dealing with the essentials of the gathering. It deals with what is apparent. We must first be personally worshipping (being thankful everyday) otherwise it is but a facade when we gather corporately.

God made man in His image to manifest God and to be His companion. We are to bring glory to God. In worship we can give to Him who needs nothing (John 4:7). Worship is the highest exercise of the heart. When we don't worship we are robbing God (Malachi 1:6, Luke 17:12-19).Worship is the key to a triumphant walk. We are not called simply to cope with life. We are called to live life abundantly.

Psalm 100:1-5 Open your mouth and make a noise of joy. In praise there is a possessing and an entrance. Rejoice in the Lord always. It is not a matter of rejoicing in me. God does not change, so my peace and joy does not have to change. Get out your hymn book in the morning and open your mouth and sing. We have to take sides against ourselves. We may not always "feel" like giving thanks, especially, when things go wrong. However let us not side with our feelings; but rather, obey God 1Thess 5:18 "In everything give thanks". Choose that part in you that wants to praise the Lord. In worshipping God, I proclaim His Godhead and bring glory to His name.

We should begin our morning with worship Psalm 100:4. We do not begin with confession, because this is taken care of the night before. We may include confession of our "sinfulness", but we begin with worship. Praise is the key to victory in applying promises. Psalm 149:5-9 When Israel went forth to battle, they sent the band before them to praise because the Lord would fight for them. In the same way, we start our day with praise because the Lord will fight for us. "Sing aloud" upon your bed in the morning and the Lord will give the victory.

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V. Prayer

Acts 2:42 And they continued steadfastly ... in prayers.

A good chair needs four legs. If you take away one leg, it will not be as steady. If you take away two legs, your doing a balancing act. And if you take away three legs, you will find yourself on the floor. We must have all four anchors for a full walk. Our daily walk needs to be a two way conversation. We need prayer. Prayer is where I talk to God. When should we pray?

Luke 18:1 Men ought always to pray, and not to faint. You don't call someone a fanatic because he breathes all the time and all day long. In fact, people who don't breathe are called dead. If you don't pray, you are going to faint. You breathe without thinking about it, and so prayer should become continual.

What should we pray about? Everything! Philippians 4:5-7 We do not need to have anxiety about anything. Let your requests be made known to God. God wants to guard your heart by His peace all day long. I Peter 5:7 God cares for you. He wants to take all of your cares. Colossians 4:2 We are called to be devoted to prayer. With thanksgiving we declare the victory in prayer. Nehemiah 2:4-5 As he talked to the king, Nehemiah was instant before the Lord in prayer.

John 16:23-24 This is how we pray. We pray to the Father in the name of the Son. We do not make prayer requests to the Son, though sometimes we may praise and give thanks to the Son. Many people abuse the term "in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ", yet this does not invalidate the truth. We come in the authority of God's Son. It is a certainty He will do it. We must pray to the Father to enter into full joy.

Roms8:26-27 All the persons of the Godhead are involved as we pray. Our enabling comes from the Holy Spirit.

Mark 11:22-24 James 1:5 When you pray, believe God and be assured that He will answer.


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I. Overview - Corporate Anchors

Acts 2:40-47 The context is the Corporate application of the four anchors. The key to the anchors in your individual walk is "continue." The key in your corporate life is "fullness" or perfection. You can not enter the fullness of God's purpose alone. Perfection can only be reached togeather in a corporate fellowship.

John 13:34-35 The sign of the disciples is love for one another. You can not do this alone. 1Peter 1:22 Love is not an option, we are commanded to love one another. 1John 4:11-12 It is through corporate relationship that God's love is perfected in us. The church is a living organism (not a dead organization) through which God is perfecting us.

Ephesisans 4:9-16 Gift is never given for individual building up, gifts are always for the building up of others. We need one another. In verse 13 it does not say until "I" arrive, but until "we all" arrive. Verse 14 It is through corporate involvement that we grow and get stability in our lives. Verse 16 Each has a part for the growth of all. As in any growing body there will be growing pains. The brethren are not infallible. This is why we need love to bind us togeather.

Acts 2:41 They were "added" to the church, also in verse 47 When ones were saved they were added to the church. And in verse 42 we see that those saved continued in these kinds of meetings. They entered into a four-fold involvement of bible study, fellowship, worship, and prayer meetings.

1 Corinthians 12:12-13 We are brought into a body. Just as it takes all four food groups regularly to maintain the good health of our bodies, we need all four anchors regularly to maintain spiritual health.

We are in vital connection to seek the welfare of one another. Gal 6:1-2 If you fall and hurt your arm, you do not cast it off. You seek to heal and restore it. So it should be when a brother fails. Ecclesiastes 4:9-10 Regular corporate fellowship can keep you from staying down when you fail.

The anchor in our individual life are entered into on a daily basis. They should be entered into corporately at least once a week. Acts 20:7 The early Christians met every Sunday to break bread. In Acts 12:12 when Peter was delivered from prison, he knew where there prayer meeting would be. The pattern in the word of God shows regular weekly meetings.



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II. Word of God - Corporate Bible Study

Acts 2:42, 44 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine...

They were together under the ministry handed down by the apostles. Ephesians 4:11-15 Christ has given gifts to men and these gifts are being exercised in the churches for the perfection or maturation of the Lord's people. Ephesians 5:25-27 His body is to be perfected by the word of God.



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III. Corporate Fellowship

Acts 2:20-47 And they continued steadfastly in ... fellowship ...

Fellowship is the natural environment of the Christian. One thing about a fish out of water is that it is not healthy for the fish. Likewise, it is not healthy for the Christian to be out of fellowship. A Christian needs to be in fellowship with a local gathering of the Lord's people for a healthy spiritual life. We read that they were togeather (vs44), they continued daily with one accord (vs46), and those saved were added to the church (vs41, 47). We see believers were together in fellowship.

Acts 2:40-41 We are saved from this wicked generation. We should be separate from the world especially in heart. Our closest relationships should be in the family of God. Being separate from the world is worth it because we are not just called out, but we are called in. We are called into fellowship with God, and we are brought into His family.

1 John 1:1-4 Corporate fellowship is to bring us into fullness. We are brought into full joy. Our fellowship with His people is to be with the fullness of the Godhead as well. This can only be corporately. 1John 2:19 In the opposite way we see one can be out of fellowship. Fellowship is with a local gathering, it can be seen when one is in or out of fellowship.

But fellowship is more than mere attendance, the word in the Greek means "the sharing of a life". So then fellowship in its true meaning is to be sharing in the life of God with others who have this same life. You must then be in union with God, which is practically seen as you are in union with His people in order to truly experience what the bible calls "fellowship". If you are attending the coporate meetings regularly but there is sin in your life, then you are not enjoying or experiencing fellowship.

Matthew 18:20 The church is where two or three "are gathered"... notice that it does not say "gathers" but "are gathered". The Holy Spirit does the gathering for the church is not man's work, but it is God's work. A church needs to be born from above. We are gathered by the Holy Spirit unto the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. It may be just two or three, which gives great hope for times of persecution, but it is God who brings us into dependence on one another.

Ephesians 3:14-19 Perfection is not possible alone. It is only with all the saints that we can enter into the fullness of the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge and be filled to all the fullness of God.

II Thessalonians 2:13-15 These things were given by apostolic authority. If you are willfully not involved in bible study, worship, and prayer with the Lord's people, then you are not really in fellowship with the Lord either. Believers should desire to be in fellowship with others.

Hebrews 10:24-25 Especially for today we are commanded not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together. Maintaining fellowship with the Lord's people is part of our preparation for His soon return.

Hebrews 13:17 Every Christian needs to be in a place of subjection to others for full joy in the day of His coming. Important decisions should always be made after counselling with the leadership where you are in fellowship. Such counsel should never be laid aside lightly, because they will be called to give account concerning your soul. It is in fellowship with other believers that God gets His fullness in our lives and He prepares us for His soon return.

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IV. Worship

Acts 2:40-47 They continued steadfastly ...in breaking of bread...

It is blessed to know these things, that is, to see them and to do them and not just to believe them. This passage is the history of the church. From generation to generation they have continued steadfastly in these things.

The term used for worship is "breaking of bread." This is what can be seen. The culmination of a time of worship was this remembrance of the Lord using these symbols of the bread and the wine which He had appointed. It is God's house, we are just guests. We can not simply do things our own way. We must be doing things God's way. We can not worship God "our way." It needs to be His way.

Today God has a way to be worshipped John 4:21-24. We must worship Him according to the truth, according to the pattern shown in His word. Many say that it does not matter how you worship the Lord. They say that when the Lord comes we will all find out what is the right way. Verses 25-26 But the Lord did come and He has shown us the right way.

1 Corinthians 11:1-3A The churches customs are not those of the world. We are given a pattern by special revelation. Two customs or traditions of the church are given in this chapter. The first is head covering in meetings when assembled as the church. Paul uses apostolic authority in showing that this should be done. The other tradition is the Lord's supper. Verses 23-24 Paul was given special revelation from the Lord as to the importance and significance of the Lord's supper. We are to worship the Lord in the way that He has revealed by His word.

John 4:7 Give me to drink. Worship is a wonderful opportunity for believers to give to drink to the God who needs nothing. Psalm says that God inhabits the praises of His people. We all as children of God are called to exercise ourselves in our priestly privileges and responsibilities by being ready to offer a sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to His name Hebs 13:15. All the members are to be exercised in heart to worship the Lord not just a few.

V. Prayer

Acts 2:42 And they continued steadfastly ... in prayers.

From the beginning of the church, believers have met together to pray. Acts 1:13-14 The disciples prayed, but the Holy Spirit makes special note that the women joined them in prayer. All of God's people, both men and women are called to join together to pray.

Matthew 18:17-20 Speaking in the context of the assembly, the word of God promises great authority in corporate prayer, both to loose God's power and to bind demonic forces. Yet today few churches have regular prayer meetings. We need to join together as a church to know the real fullness of the power of prayer.

The authority of the church is not "the vote." Our authority is before the throne of God. Heaven is not a democracy. God is a monarch. Acts12:1-5 The arm of the world is violence. Violence is not the way of the church. Against the sword of the nations, they used prayer and were overwhelmingly victorious. They were known as turning the world upside down. Prayer is not simply our last resort. Prayer is our power in the world today. Prayer is the arm and power of God.


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What is it saying? Verse outline of the chapter
What does it mean? What is The Lord saying to me personally from the chapter (John8:27).
What am I going to do about it? Personal application to what The Lord has said to me (James1:22-25).


I took a look at that website and it certainly brings back memories.
I realised something as I was reading through some of it.
The kind of legalistic propaganda the author(s) has srpinkled all throughout is something that well-read students of the Bible would dismiss. Assembly people read their Bibles a lot, but few of them studied it.
I am more convinced than ever that this, sound Biblical understanding, is what ultimtely makes the difference in the way we respond to error.
Verne

p.s it's kind of amazing that I never remembered that they would throw in that "what it means to me personally", until I think it was Dave, pointed it out on the BB some time ago. How subtle are s the beginnings of error!

Did you catch all the suggestions that most churches were wrong, and that God has a special way he wanted to be worshipped,  Head Coverings and Lord's supper every sunday?

How about the "you must get counsel from the leaders" phrase at the end?  The elitist mentality is thinly veiled, as is the frank assertion that most of a person's salvation is dependent upon how well they use the anchors.

Brent

Yes.
There is no substitute for experience.
The things that you or I would spot immediately in an offering such as this, are not necessarily things that a young freshly minted believer would notice. This is one of the reasons that I like to see elders with a little grey, in my leadership team.
The person who wrote this is doing what they were trained to do, and based on how they were taught to think.
The teaching lacks humility and borders on condescension. I also have no doubt that this person probably does not intend this and may not even be aware of it.
This brings me to another point. None of us are perfect. While we may have strong opinons and perspectives, it does not mean we are infallible. This critical matter is the reason I have always placed so much emphasis on true plurality in leadership.
All of us need at least one or two people in our lives that we can go to and say: give it to me straight.
Frankly, this is particularly true in my own case as I am loathe to accept any adivice (paricularly in spiritual matters) from any Tom Dick and Harry because of the simple fact that there are few people qualified to give it. I am sometimes genuinely astonished at what unblievable hogwash is dished out by some folk There is nothing more debilitating than receiving and acting on wrong and misguided counsel.
George apparently had no one like this he go talk to. This can be fatal.
One of the reasons I like the interaction on the BB is that many of us think and talk out of our experience.
It is hard to have a true zeal for rightoeousness unless you have witnessed what ungodliness unchecked does to people;
You can tell a lot about a person by the way to view sinful conduct. It is quite revealing.
 With very few exceptions, no one posting on this BB has taken the any position other than Geftaky was a man of great wickedness.
While we do not always see eye to eye on every point, I think we have been wonderfully inocculated against the likes of Geftakys by what we went through.
I must say after reading that site I have a new apprciation of Tom's disdain for the "deeper life" crowd; not because  I reject the belief that the significance of Scripture can go beyond the mere literal, but rather that people who begin and end there are not to be trusted for one second. The great likelihood is that they have no idea whatsoever what they are talking about, and are simply mindlessly parroting what they have either heard or read.
There is no substitute for experience.
Verne

Man, that took me back, too.  I didn't realize it, but I had completely forgot what it felt like to have spent an entire holiday weekend in meetings, furiously flipping Bible pages & writing notes in pidgin shorthand, spending the brief hours between meetings discussing the messages over rushed meals, getting short nights' sleep between evening times & morning times.  But it all came flooding back after about 1/2hour of reading Brent's several posts.  One thing I realized this time around:  That elated feeling I used to have at the end of a three-day seminar-- the feeling I used to attribute to having been singularly blessed to have been in the Lord's place at the Lord's time-- was really just a feeling of great relief that it was over and I could drop my guard and possibly get a few hours of real rest before having to return to work the next day!

Thanks Brent, I needed that (see Marcia's penguins for illustration)!


Unless I'm mistaken, the material Brent posted was taken almost verbatim from a GG seminar and/or a series of Sunday afternoon ministry from back in the early days of Fullerton.  I can remember sitting under most of it, if not all.


The outstanding feature to me is that of all that is quoted, so much of it is good material terribly, criminally misapplied.  That is, in its proper context, much of what is quoted would be good teaching.  I may be oversimplifying in this statement, but much of what should be understood as the fruit of the work of God's Holy Spirit in the life of the individual and of the church was being presented as the means to the working of the Holy Spirit-- as if the gifts of God's grace must be earned by human effort.


A few notes on a few quotes:

There is a fundamental truth here: that sin can disrupt fellowship with God.  But the way it was mistaught in the assy was:  If you are attending every meeting but are not reveling in feelings of exultation and joy, you need to do some deep soul-searching to find the hidden sin in your life.  The idea that your feelings are not the final authority was bypassed in favor of your lack of joy indicating the presence of sin.  Genuine faith is thus eliminated from the equation.


This was a perverted carrot-&-stick routine:  The carrot was that you can know God's perfect plan for your life by submitting your inclinations and desires to the assy leadership.  But the stick was not just used for dangling the carrot-- it was then detached & used to beat the saints into submission to whatever misshapen ideas the leaders might concoct by which to run & often ruin their lives.


Here again is the cart-before-the-horse scenario.  Those things which may occur as a result of the Holy Spirit's being free to work in the hearts and in the midst of His people are being taught as the mandatory means to get the Holy Spirit to show up-- a works-based avenue to earning grace, whereas grace, by definition, is freely bestowed, unearned.

...and finally:

Whether or not there may be any truth at all to this allegation is immaterial when considering its source.  Even in the early days, when George was at his most charismatic, it would be an impossible stretch to think of God (even on a bad-hair day) looking anything like him, much less vice-versa.

al

George's emphasis on the corporate expression sounded lofty and grand. It initially did to me.
One has to understand it in terms of the man's objective.
This kind of what was essentially "group think" was from the beginning designed to squelch serious personal reflection and individual responsibility. Everything for the "testimony" you understand.
Imagine the man's gumption in making the argument that exposing him as a revolting adulterer was to to be avoided so as "not to destroy a world-wide ministry."
A few more things have come to light regarding his conduct while traveling abroad.
It is hard for me to believe that the men with him did not know some of this stuff.
Didn't more of you wonder about the suddeness with which contacts with certain formerly prominent names and places would be lost and quietly dropped from the "bragging list"?
 The man's avarice also has to be considered. As much as he enjoyed the control, it is my own opinon that from the beginning it was his purpose to get groups together so concerned about the "testimony" that they would fork over their hard-earned money thoughtlessly and joyfully. That is exactly what hundreds did.
Verne

The date on the UCSB website says this was last updated in 1999. Is this Bible study still active on campus?

Don't know about the UCSB one, but here is a current up-to-date one from Ottawa (who was not really influenced by Fullerton ::) ) :
www.saltandlight.ca/study.php (http://www.saltandlight.ca/study.php)

Marcia

Ah yes, distinctly non-Fullertonian.  I especially like the part about S P A C E.  It is, after all, the final frontier! 8)

al

I expect that the Assemblies, like Ottawa, that weren't influenced by Fullerton are really growing?

Is God answering even 2% of their prayers?  They pray for 'new ones' and visitors at least twice a week, so 2x52=104.

That would mean about 2 "new ones" per year....if God was answering at 2%...which certainly doesn't fit the NT pattern, neither is it above all we could ask or think.

Telemarkerters shoot for 2%, but they almost always are not  a testimony of the Body of Christ, locally expressed.  They aren't special to God, like an Assembly.  Also, telemarketers have a tendency to irritate people....that's why they only get a 2% success rate.

So, how are things in Ottawa?  Are they getting a return on outreach equal to telemarketing?

Brent

Brent Brent Brent...you simply don't understand do you?
They are the faithful remnant...by definition a small fraction of the whole.
So what if other mature believers tell you that what you are teaching and doing is cultish and unbiblical?
What do they know? Afterall, they don't have the "light" that we have, and the fact that we have remained an isolated society of one or two makes absolutely no difference. Don't you get it?
Even though we do pray fervently that God would add, the fact that He doesn't proves that we are indeed the faithful remnant!!
Implied in that is that we don't have toi endure the society of other adults!  And most certainly not other adult Christians!  Small is beautiful!  :)
Verne

Maybe not with the numbers, but remember the "work" is their salvation so there is much spiritual growth in the members left. :)

Marcia

Foks,

Chapter Summary Bible study was invented in the 1930's by Milo Jamison for his outreach group at UCLA.  He became the founding pastor of University Bible Church near the campus.

Dawson Trotman adopted it as a method for his group Bible studies in his Navigator's homes in the 1940's and 1950's.

George Geftakys used to attend the Bible studies at Dawson Trotman's home in South Pasadena back in his Biola days.

Thomas Maddux

Yep.  It's from the Navigators, although in reality, Chapter Summary is simply a streamlined Inductive Method type of Bible Study.

I see no problem at all with the method.  In fact, it's perfectly OK.  The problems were with what was taught, not only in word but in deed.

George didn't invent prayer meetings either....or ANOP's.

Brent

Christ is the Anchor of the soul sure and steadfast. Not the 10 anchors / 4 anchors. See where the author most likely GG mentions the leadership will have to give an account for your soul. What leader is accounting for GG ? Also in the Ind. word section he says the word should be not only in your heart but on you like a BODY-CAST, this is horrific, with 10 anchors, and a body cast I don't see any smooth sailing going on, more like paralization.  Summer.  (You see I've been through the Desert in a church with no name, it feels good to be out of the pain)

Most excellent analysis.
Perhaps they should be called the four mill-stones?  :)
Verne
p.s. but seriously Summer, would to God that every former assemblyite could now look at these things with such a discerning eye...

As a sailor, and one who does a fair amount of anchoring at the beautiful Channel Islands, I often had disagreements with people who would preach the "4anchors" thing using a marine analogy.

Boats want one anchor.  This way the vessel is allowed to swing with the wind.  One anchor, with a sandy bottom is optimal.  Only a lubberly, foolish skipper would put down an anchor on "solid rock."  The vessel would drag..terrible seamanship!  Also, lodging an an anchor into rocks is also stupid....you can't retrieve it and must cut the line. 

4 anchors would be a tangled mess and charade.

2 anchors, bow and stern, are used at times, but it is always suboptimal and only done in crowded anchorages, in order to avoid swinging into your neighbor.

The "individual" anchors were never the main emphasis.  It was the "corporate" anchors that were so important...and the only way a person could do them was to go to four meetings per week.

Worship, prayer, bible study, and some fellowship activity.

Of course, a really good member would go to a bunch of other meetings as well.

Brent

Here again is a perfect example of the assembly misuse/abuse of both scripture and fundamental language: mixed metaphors created by the ignorant to confuse the gullible.  The scriptural "Solid Rock" is good teaching, as the foundation for building a house.  Likewise the idea of a firm anchor, correctly employed.  But ancoring your vessel to rock is as senseless as constructing a house underwater.

As a result of such folderol, there are ex-assyites today who recoil at the mention of solid rock OR anchorage, in any context.


The truly committed went to the pre-prayer meeting before every meeting, and LBs sometimes had a pre-pre-prayer meeting meeting, plus a post-meeting meeting more often than not.  Mentally, I think some of us had poolhall-style scorekeepers in our heads, where we reached up with our cue and slid another marker into place every time we made another "point."  It probably helped to offset the inner agony that our schedules caused us, but we didn't dare admit to ourselves.

al

At the risk of sounding elitist, one of the things we all have to keep in mind is that while  George Geftaky wss quite clever,  he was not really an educated man.  I remember bieng so surprised at the sloppiness of his writing and his unfamiliarity with fundamental matters of English grammar and syntax.   He would boast about his graduate courses, but he was not a deep thinker.
It is not that I think you have to be an intellectual to minister well, but ignorance does seem to exacerbate innate corruption. Remember his oft repeated idiotic "I will not leave you orphan-less", giving us the real Greek according to him?
I still fume over our inexcusable stupidity to follow a lying whoring fraud like this cretin.
I remember the first time I sat in his study and excitedly tried to talk about the philospohy of science with him and he appeared to get very uncomfortable and kept steering the conversation back to what I considered trivial platitudes.
The man was really very intellectually insecure and compensated for it by trying to make others feel inadequate.
His vicious assault of Lee Irons was totally based in this insecurity at being challenged intellectually. This is a technique commonly employed by those he influenced. He had just enough bright people around him to give him an appearance of gravitas, but many of those who did his dirty work were also simple fellows. If fact he would purposely choose weak-willled men and put them in places of responsibility since he knew he could control them. Too many folk in the assembly saw this happen again and again yet were too timid to speak out that the emperor had no clothes.
This was in fact the thing that helped me walk away from the Champaign goup, when they decided that one of the most unpleasant persons you would have the misfortune to meet was to become a "responsible brother". Looking back, it is truly amazing what people endured.
Most of what Goerge presented was not his own. He was not only morallly corrupt. He was also intellectually bankrupt.
Verne

The stupidity is indisputable, at least for many of us, but I want to clarify the use of your adjective because of the self-condemnation that the assembly instilled into so very many:  While not contesting your term "inexcusable" from the human standpoint, let me stress that God's view is that all who have confessed to wrongdoing regarding the assembly, its doctrine, practices, leadership, etc. are forgiven!  Let there be no question in the mind of any who have come along that path: although you may feel that your involvement was "inexcusable," it is by no means unpardonable...  Believe it.


In this, he became my surrogate father, as I was brought up by just such a man.  I have spoken with others who have similar testimonies.


Being controlable, I'm sure, was a key to my "calling" to be an LB & worker.


Occasionally, Verne, your typos are priceless!  Retrospectively, in seeking a synonym for "assembly" I can't think of a more fitting word than "goup." ;D


It is important to not confuse uneducated with unitelligent (I speak not to you, Verne, but to your readers).  George apparently went to great lengths to counterfeit his having a legitimate education, but he was not stupid.  He seems to have the intelligence of a master criminal, in that he had the mental capacity to have succeeded in academia, but not the inclination nor the moral reponsibility.

The machine he created was not the work of a moron, but more befitting an evil genius.  Many men have doubtless failed in their attempts to accomplish just what George succeeded at, because  they either had the twisted vision but lacked the driving ambition, or vice versa.  But George had both the inclination and the intelligence to find, confuse, capture and enslave those who could be had.  Undoubtedly he also employed the advantage of spiritual inspiriation.  We, the willingly blinded, hailed the inspiration, utterly failing to recognize its dark source.

al

Points well taken Al. I realise what I say on the BB can appear to be condemnatory of those the man beguiled.
That is by no means my intention, believe me. The passion I express about this is driven by what I know God intends for his precious ones, and what George and his enablers did to them. I know I needed a few swift kicks in the rear to get me out of my own stupor. I think mature Christians are tough and honest enough to hear the truth about that era, rather than spinning lying fabrications to try and justify the abonminable. For those still struggling and feeling guilty over what happened, don't. The fault is not entirely your own. God's favour is evident in the fact of your found freedom. Smile!!!
Verne

Brent, they have a Contact Us page on the website.  You may be able to ask them whatever and get a response.  About 1 1/2 year ago MarkC asked them some questions but did not get any response.  Things might be different now.

God bless,
Marcia

I tried contacting them a while back.  They didn't respond to me either.

They are doing a great work, and can't come down to barter with thei likes of me.

Brent

Maybe if you changed your pseudonym from Brent Tr0ckman to MikeZ of TimG, you will get a response.  Whatever you do, do not choose 'bystander'  ;).

Marcia

P.S. re. mistaken identity on Eagles, someone with admin privileges should easily be able to verify via the IP address posted with each post, don't you think?
MM

Yes, they could do so easily, in which case they could publicly humiliate me by showing it to be true.  Unless bystander is my wife or son, the IP's won't match. 

Anyway, they honor anonymous posters over there.  Bob Smith isn't his real name.  I'm sure that bystander isn't his real name either.

Brent, AKA Brent

Re. Bob Smith, he recently posted a number of 'memories' from his time in the assembly.  All of the events that he publicly posted were activities that happened in Estevan Canada.  We used to pray for the annual fair OR, and the parent appreciation night, and the float construction, etc.  So I can conclude that Bob Smith was closely associated with the assembly in Estevan, which is now disbanded.

Marcia

Do you think little snot-nose doesn't know this? If it did match, he would have thrown it in your face. That is probaby the first thing he checked.
Like his mentor, his accusation simply displays their penchant for mendacity.
Verne

while I won't share your language towards him...he's not here afterall, I am quiet sure they checked it, because they both stated that it wasn't the same bystander as before.  I suspect that the IP's were different.  However, that still doesn't make it me.

To be perfectly fair, I did mistake Matt for someone else at one time.  He was gracious enough to accept my apology for doing so.  I have every reason to believe that if it turns out that I am not bystander, they will apologize, at which time I will graciously accept, as Matt did. 

Ruth made quite a point here, on how we treat guests in a shoddy way.  Well, her account is still active, and she is free to post, while this bystander was deleted after two posts!  I don't suppose I'm seeing this correctly, it must be an apples to oranges comparison.

Ruth was taking you to task, while bystander suggested that Matt was rude.  Not the same thing at all, so that negates any misperception of a double standard. 

Anyhows, it is all somewhat silly and juvenile, but I can't help but be mildly flattered that they thought I was bystander.  I think he hit the nail on the head with his post.

Brent

Brent I think you are a good man.
You will get nowhere by attempting to maintain a civil posture with folk who insist on being vulgar, destructive and slanderous. I used the word snot-nosed because it is illustrative of the unconcern the typical toddler has for the goo on his face. I doubt you will get said apology. Although now that I have said this, you will probably get one for contrarian reasons.  :)
Verne

p.s. I am not so sure he (Bystander) entirely hit the nail on the head. He claimed to agree with statements that were provably false.
Regarding the juvenile, he was indeed correct.

Re. mistaken identity, all dynamic information for a user is lost when the user deletes his account.  If the IP address field is a dynamic field, it will likely contain the information from the previous post or previous database entry when displayed.  Hence the confusion.  So it may not be possible to verify via IP addresses after all.

Marcia

Snot nose?  :o This will provide reading material over at SWTB for a week.  ;D

We would not want them to drop dead of boredom now would we?  Enjoy! ;D
Verne
p.s they have taken the concept of obsession to new lows...at my last look-see I was certain that I would have discovered that other topics now occupied the interest of the principals...wrong again! (said Rafiki); it is pathetic beyond descritption.

Two experiences come to mind.

One was at a Sunday meeting we went to where a jogger, dressed in his warm-up suit, jogged up to the door to see what was going on. He asked if he could come in. He was told by the doorkeeper guy that he couldn't come in as long as he was dressed the way he was, but that an extra supply of clothes could be provided for him to change into. The jogger declined and left.

The other was at an evening seminar. I had brought a tape recorder with me because I'm a lousy note-taker, and we were confused about the things we were hearing about the Assembly, and wanted to make sure we were getting it straight. At the end of the evening when the meeting was over, I was approached by a couple of guys who introduced themselves and told me they needed to take my tape. I explained that taping lectures was helpful to me because I don't take notes well. They told me that there were a bunch of Hare Krishnas (do Hare Krishnas travel in bunches? Gaggles? Herds?) down the street who took everything the Assembly said and twisted it around, so they had to be very careful of people who didn't understand who would distort what they were teaching. We argued back and forth a little bit, and then they reluctantly let me keep the tape. As we were driving away that night, we had the tape in the cassette player in the car and we were listening to George talk. While we were in the room during the seminar, things George would say made sense every now and then. As we were driving away, the weirdest thing was happening - it was like driving out of a spider web, and the further we drove the more the web stretched until we had torn a hole and drove through. The more we listened and the farther away we got, the more we said, "Waaaaaaait a minute - that's not right . . ."

Spooky >:D

I am interested in what you think caused the "spider web" phenomenon?

Marcia

um - I wish I had a good answer for that? Some of it was due to the fact that I'm a slow thinker, I don't make decisions quickly, and I need time to process things. Some of it was also related to my own spiritual maturity, or lack thereof. I had only been a Christian for less than ten years myself, and wasn't very discerning at that point in my life. Cults were still very new things to me, and I was very naive. And some of it was hampered by my desire to be open-minded about this new church my brother was going to. I was willing to kind of lay my own "red flags" of warning aside to give him the benefit of the doubt. And I was a very non-confrontive person back then - I was scared to death of having my own opinions about things, or, heaven forbid, that I should try to defend my beliefs to someone. Not a good combination when diligence is needed.

Anyway, all that aside, it was more of a feeling than anything else. At the seminar, there was a sense of adrenoline, because I had never seen people behave so intensely at church before, and the scripture quoting was flowing so fast I hardly had a chance to catch up, I remember hearing the constant rustling of pages. It seemed like you could barely look one up before he was moving on to another one. It was kind of envigorating, and if nothing else, he was a very charismatic speaker. So even though I had no desire to join the Assembly myself, there was a kind of glow that lingered after we left and got in the car. But the more we distanced ourselves (literally) from the place, the more I had a chance to think, and while we were listening to what he said again, we had a chance to kind of process what he was saying, and reality kind of set in. At the time, I couldn't put my finger on the possibility that there was a spirit of opression at work. It just felt like the cobwebs were clearing and the words he'd said that had sounded pretty good before were really kind of gobbledy-gook.

Hmm, probably waaaaay more than you wanted to know . . .

I have heard some really weird stories both first and second hand about people who visited the assemblies and never came back. Since none of us are experts in this area, there has not been too much discussion regarding the spiritually dark side of all that Geftakys was and did. Perhaps we are better off not knowing. The fact that this man actually had occultic literature in his possession tells me all I need to know. God was truly merciful to some of us.  ???
Verne

p.s. The thing that finally convinced me that George was more than just a fraud but a  man of real spiritual power was reflection of the caliber of men that he corrupted. It completely changed my thinking about what spiritual maturity was.
Too many of us defer to people for reasons of reputation or title.
When you think of it, the evidence suggested that Geftakys, rather than being worthy of all the honor he arrogated to himself, was worthy of nothing but contempt.
I have learned to look into people's eyes. They never lie.
As I hinted before, it has much less to do do with what we say, and even what we do. You can fool a lot of folk by saying and doing  seemingly the right things. The secret of true spiritual power, of the Holy Spirit or otherwise, is what we are!
Does anybody think the Lord was employing hyperbole when he said to some:

"You are of your father the devil?"

You ultimately cannot indefinitely coninue pretending to be something you are not. Sooner or later, it will be evident to all.
God will see to it. Geftakys certainly proves this point.

By the strangest of coincidences ;) I received the following e-mail just this morning:

---

Subject: Proper Attire

One Sunday morning an old cowboy entered a church just before services were to begin. Although the old man and his clothes were spotlessly clean, he wore jeans,a denim shirt and boots that were very worn and ragged. In his hand he carried a worn out old hat and an equally worn out bible.

The church he entered was in a very upscale and exclusive part of the city. It was the largest and most beautiful church the old cowboy had ever seen.  The people of the congregation were all dressed with expensive clothes and accessories.

As the cowboy took a seat, the others moved away from him. No one greeted, spoke to, or welcomed him. They were all appalled at his appearance and did not attempt to hide it.

The preacher gave a short sermon about the goodness of God and man and a stirring appeal regarding how much money the church needed to do God's work.

As the old cowboy was leaving the church, the preacher approached him and told the cowboy, "Before you come back in here again,  have a talk with God and ask him what he thinks would be appropriate attire for worship here."  The old cowboy assured the preacher he would.

The next Sunday, he showed back up for the services wearing the same ragged jeans, shirt, boots, and hat. Once again he was completely shunned and ignored. The preacher approached the man and said,"I thought you promised to speak to God about your clothes before you came back to our church."

"I did," replied the old cowboy.

"Well then, did God tell you to come back here wearing what you have on?" asked the preacher.
 
"Well, sir, God told me that He couldn't tell me what I should wear on account of He's never been in this church before."

Tom has made some astute observations in the past re: "mob mentality" and crowd control, which in no way conflict with Verne's observations about the spiritual element-- the phenomenon may occur with or wthout the empowerment of the latter, and even without it is dangerous because those being influenced are unaware of being controlled and actually enjoy the experience. 

There is something very basic in human nature that seeks the security and comfort of numbers, never suspecting the lemming-like results that can ensue.  It is sin's & satan's counterfeit of the fellowship of the church, Christ's body, in the Holy Spirit.

al

Some of you remember how I used to refer to the spider web as a "demonic fog."  I am convinced we are talking about the same thing here.

I could not agree more about how the intensity of the people, the page turning and the scripture quoting served to "wow" people.  However, if you step back and realize what is happening here, people aren't impressed by the glory of God, but by the form of godliness, intensely demonstrated by the people.  The focus was on external things and not on Christ.  This became apparent as soon as one got their head above the fog and actually analyzed what was being said.  Like Night Owl said, some of it made sense, but much of it was either hot air, or plain old false teaching.

It's interesting, Night Owl says she wasn't very discerning....yet she knew something was wrong.  Contrast that with us, who perceived ourselves as quite discerning, applying the inward cross, daily dying to self that we might mortify the deeds of the flesh, and be renewed in our minds....etc.  We had read Madam Guyon, Hannah Whitehall-Smith,  Jesse Penn-Lewis, Robert Govett, and Charles Solomon...but in spite of all this we couldn't figure out who the arrogant windbag was, and we deferred to him and fawned on him, and called him,  "The Lord's Servant."  Well, as we know now, that "servant" was likely engaging in perverted sexual acts with a woman who wasn't his wife that same weekend he was spewing out his god-talk.

The fact is we were wrong, and a simple, humble person who didn't think they were very discerning figured it out. 

That's the demonic fog, the spider web.  The people who are most blind to it are those who have the pride of the deeper life.  They don't even see it, and can't begin to consider it, because they are so convinced that they clearly hear God speak, etc.  I know, because I was one....as were many of my friends.

Brent

I quoted your post Brent, so that it does not disappear.  I can read it when I click on the 10 most recent, but it is not indicated as the most recent.


It is interesting that an "outsider" (non-assemblyite) has made the same observations.
Night Owl referred to other facts that we have been pointing out on this BB:
George's charisma
spirit of opression
'willing to kind of lay my own "red flags" of warning aside to give him the benefit of the doubt.'

Other "outsiders", who visited the Ottawa assembly occasionally, have read the Web-site and commented that the Ottawa assembly was definitely Geftakysized.  Yet Ottawa claims that it was not affected by Fullerton because of distance.  ::)

Marcia

The simple fact of the matter is that when I spend 17 years of my life truly thinking that I am an awesome Christian, involved in one of the few churches that takes the NT pattern seriously, and notice that I know my bible better than most....when I am so proud of all that...it's really hard to entertain the idea that I was wrong about plenty of stuff, most importantly that I had a false view of myself and my own spirituality.

It's tempting to maintain the idea that I really am a spiritual stud, and that the church built by George was a wonderful place but that George stumbled a little.    I feel better this way, and am not so embarrassed.

Brent

My observation, and this is generally speaking and applies to all locations, is that those who left evangelical gatherings to join an assembly somehow have more difficulty seeing the "evil" of the Geftakys assembly system.  Maybe it involved a compromise of conscience when they first joined ....  They are now the most staunch supporters for assembly continuance and keep others poor ones in bondage too.

Marcia

P.S. It is the 11th hour, deadline is the 30th, and I've got to go and do our income tax.
Marcia

There was a homeless guy coming to the Bible study in Champaign. I cannot remember his name.
I must have been starting to reject the attitudes of some around me for I had my own apartment at this time and I knew the guy was sleeping on the streets. I inquired of the "responsible brothers" if they were trying to help him in any way.
They of course had to check with George.
While they were figuing out what to do I had him stay at my place for several weeks.
My condition was that he had to show me that he had been to at least three places looking for work when I got home every day. At first he tried, but then simply sat in the apartment the entire day so I eventually asked him to find another place to stay. I think he had a drug problem but I am not sure. There may have also been some psycholgical issues.
I mention this because I think in the assemblies there was an underlying cruelty to the weak and needy that was really heart-breaking. It was an attitude that I think came directly from George and Betty. You can still see this predatory spirit in his disciples.
I think Brent has hit on a critical point.
I have oftern wondered if Satan ever considered that his rebellion was perhaps not such a good idea after all, considering the One he is going up against.
I think it is this apparent inability, whether because of spirutual bondage or other reasons that is so stunning to me.
Anyone who was involved with the assemblies, who recruited others to be involved, or in any way aided and abeted establishment of the legitimacy of George and Bety Geftakys, yet cannot simply admit:

"We were wrong!"

is a person in my mind incapable of true repentance.




I am afraid it does not work that way. Some folk have moved a continent away in an attempt to escape their dark past, only to discover they had carried it with them.
I believe the man's influence persists.
Verne

p.s. the homeless guy's name was Kevin...anybody from Champaign remember him?

I think the Lord used the crisis at CAC to deal with some residual issues of spiritual "pride of association".
I really loved the C& MA, I have never met so many wonderful Christians as the ones I did at our missions conferences and when I attended general counsel. I was at least wise enough to seek out the counsel of other Godly men at the time and the elders at the Gibson City Bible Church provided a place of refuge and real comfort. I owe them a tremendous debt of gratitude. I am still involved by way of music minsitry even though we are not officially attending there ( a few of you have inquired about the "going from church to church accusation).
It was interesting that the leadership at Gibson city around the same time had dismissed a youth pastor for misusing the internet. Nuff said.
I am amazed at how the Lord orders our lives. Montse had been scheduled to begin a Sabattical in Spain and so was spared a lot of the ugliness.

I have to smile when I hear some folk accuse others of wanting a place spiritually.
This kind of talk has to come from the mind of an incredible spiritual simpleton.

There is not a person alive, with even a shred of spiritual intelligence, who would covet a place that God has not prepared them for.  It is tanamount to suicide spiritually.

There was also a time, when those who had failed to adorn the doctrine in their own lives, would humbly acknowldge their lack of fitness to instruct others. Not so today. People no longer have any shame whatsoever.

Clearly this was George's problem.
He once boasted to me about the "power" he had by pointing to a picture of all the people taken during one of his seminars. This preoccupaton with works and personal glory is Satanic, pure and simple.
It is so interesting how some folk reveal their own inner corruption.
Verne

Hi Sondra,

I agree and applaud your wisdom in leaving when you did.  You saw lack of true spiritual growth and power, and thought you would be better of elsewhere.  You were certainly right!

I also agree with you regarding the tendency for people to gravitate towards things that are comfortable, etc.  Absolutely true.

However, I have a problem with the whole deeper life thing, as you know.  Nevertheless, thank you for the kind words, I really appreciate it.

Brent

Sondra,

Here's an example of what I am talking about. In one of the chapters from Penn-Lewis's "Centrality of The Cross,"  she talks about "The Cross and Revival."

In this chapter, she describes holding meetings, where the cross is applied, and the atmosphere is "clear as crystal." People are praying, and testifying spontaneously....until a demon speaks.  Someone speaks up and there is a "metallic" sound to the voice, and a strange spirit gives a tincture, a small pollution into the spiritual atmosphere.  Well, she makes it clear that the meetings need to be conducted by people who have experienced a deep, inward work of the cross, in order that this sort of thing be detected and stopped before God's prescense is quenched.

In other words, those who have become accustomed to the cross, and who have a spiritual wisdom and sensitivity are able to discern the spirits, and should deciseively act upon their intuition. 

That's a far cry from saying this:
Penn-Lewis teaches differently, and her deeper life credentials are pretty good.

I was reminded of something while I was typing this post.  Years ago, when I first got really into The Centrality of The Cross, and Penn-Lewis's other books, I brought this very chapter up to the leadership in SLO.  I longed for the experience that she talked about, the revival and crystal clear atmosphere, where God's presence was felt in a deep, profound way.

The brothers  weren't sure what to do, so they consulted God, (George being the intermediary) and decided that  we weren't going to do that and that I should just drop it. (The meetings were boring and I really wanted some life!)  So, what I am saying is that you are correct.  When push came to shove, George wasn't into the deeper life if it meant changing anything he was already doing. I guess we share a similiar experience on that count.

However, I really was into the deeper life, and really did try to cultivate the inner life...and I was deaf, dumb and blind as a result.

It was the blunt force trauma, and icy cold water of simple bible exegesis that got me to wake up. 

The main point in the Bible was Jesus, not George's Assembly. It was about Christ, not about the cross in me, it was about the Head, not the body....It was about eternal life, not deeper life.

That's my experience, but I reserve the right to grow and change in the future!  :)

Brent

I don't see the cross as a living instrument at all.  I see it as an historical event that took place 2 millenia ago.

Amazing things took place, both in the physical and spiritual sense, but the most important aspect of it, to me, is that  it is finished!  He died in my place, He suffered on account of my sin, He paid my penalty, and the veil was torn.  I now have access to God, by grace through faith.  It says clearly that believing is needed, not access through the living instrument of the cross.

Yes, it is blessed to fellowship His sufferings, but the fact remains, we don't need to be crucified.  We don't need to suffer God's wrath, because Christ did so in our place.

Your point about Christians changing through God's power, whether they know it or not is well taken, and I am in total agreement.  However, I don't see that Deeper Life teaching is helpful.  I see it as a distraction to this working of God, because it makes the cross something it is not.  It's just an old piece of wood without Jesus.  It's the Cross of Christ, not just the cross.

Paul said he wanted to know Jesus Christ, and HIM crucified.  He never said he wanted to know a deep, inward work of the cross in people's lives.

Is there growth?  Of course!  There must be growth, as He is The Vine and we are the branches.  Growth is natural, because of our source of life.  Deeper Life teaching, if taken too far, basically says that union with Christ is not enough, and that there must be a "tool" as you put it, in order for growth to occur.  That's not right.  We are under the care of a Vinedresser.  He has the tools and he uses them as He sees fit.  He doesn't give them to the branches.  It's the branches job to grow bear fruit

I do agree with you when you say the better we know the Lord the more we change.  However, it is my contention that knowing ideas about something we call the cross, and knowing God are not the same thing at all.

That's my opinion, and I add that I speak as one who used to be an adherent to Deeper Life theology. Just because we disagree on this doesn't mean we can't have friendly fellowship in Christ.

Brent

Just a short addition here. As you said Brent, "It is finished". The Bible says I AM crucified with
Christ, nevertheless I live.."(Gal. 2:20). It doesn't say "I am BEING crucified with Christ". It's speaking
of an accomplished act, "I am crucified"---not an ongoing crucifixion as the Catholics seem to adhere
to. The way of the cross is to believe what has already been accomplished for us, not a dreary walk of suffering to attain holiness. "I am crucified" implies a finished work, and a simple act of faith---"I am being crucified" implies works, and a neverending stream of "duties" to crucify ourselves more and more on a daily basis. That is not Biblical, and it is what led the Assembly into the endless meetings, and stewardships, and total "commitment" required to be a faithful Christian.

--Joe

Sondra,

  The following comments are not meant as a personal attack, but I must strongly disagree with some of what I think you are saying.

!.) Your contention that "GG preached the word" and as such should be seen as an instrument of God.

   You admit that GG is an unrepentant adulterer, but that God was using him inspite of this. (Do I understand you correctly?)

  I can only guess that you believe this based on certain verses that say things like, "His Word will not return to Him void", and when Paul "rejoiced that the Gospel was preached," in Philppians, even though it was proclaimed by contentious and self centered preachers, etc.  If this is the case, let's talk about the possibility that you are not properly applying them.

   Jim Jones preached the Bible,  as did David Koresh.  Jehovah Witnessess and Mormans preach "the word", as in public teaching of their belief system from the bible: Are these also vessels of blessing that God is using to minister to souls?

2.) Are GG's dalliance's with those he "pastored" his only failure as a leader?  In other words, was GG's treatment of those under his control sinful in other areas? (as in abusive shame based techniques of attacking those  who he felt threatened by?)

   On the first point above: Just because someone speaks from the Bible does not mean they are presenting a proper interpretation.  God's word must represent God's truth or it is what the bible calls false teaching. 

   False teaching is not only false, it causes damage to souls.  Paul says that the Galatians were put under a curse by following Bible teachers that taught a merit relationship with God, vs. one based on grace.  Error followed by believers will not take away their regeneration, but it will make life on earth a living hell!

  On the second point re. the scope of GG's destructive influence:

      Of the many women that GG seduced how many of them have had their faith overthrown, or at the very least damaged?  Though I was not hurt directly by GG's philandering---- What about them??!!  Are we just to dismiss their injuries as "the way of the cross" and a lesson that they can learn from?!  Do you think that God takes a "boys will be boys" view at pastors who mistreat his children like this?!

   But the range of GG sin widens beyond these, though the immorality would be enough in my view to earn him scathing rebuke and rejection by those who name the name of Christ!

       (His repentance is the one opportunity to alter the above.)

  How about Judy Geftakys and her children?  Physically beaten and told that it was her fault?  Then the cover-up by GG and Assembly leadership of the whole issue allowing her and her kids to be continually abused??!! ??? >:(

   How about the very many sincere children of God who dared to cross GG at one time or another and were preached about in the meetings---- being openly shamed--- and brought before "workers meetings" to receive psychological beatings??!! :'(   Terrible false rumors circulated by GG and leadership in an attempt to force compliance to GG's dictatorial control??!!

  Some of these left thinking they were total failures and cannot step back into any church again, read their bibles, or pray without servere psychological pain!! :'(   

I'm with Jesus on this one re. such abusers: "better that a millstone were tied around their necks and they be tossed into the sea then that one of these little ones are hurt!"

  The above is not "the way of the cross" but examples of monstrous evil that claims it's authority as being of God.  God's "way" for Christian relationship is truth and love.  Though evil is around, and God can turn it into good, he is never the author of that evil, nor does he encourage us to be non-judgmental in our attitudes toward such----- God most certainly is not indifferent to perpetrators of unloving destructive actions against His children--- and neither should we.

  Can we learn from our abusive treatment?  Sure, but that's a very, very long way from suggesting that GG, inspite of his evil, was a source of blessing to us by means of his twisted and self serving interpretations of Scripture!

   If your opinion is correctly expressed by me above I believe your understanding is totally contra the Spirit of God and that the inner guide that you now have should surely be tested as to it's source.  I entreat you to humbly consider that you may be in serious error.

                                                God Bless,  Mark C. 

To me, it is clear that Paul is talking about himself when he was a jew, and contrasting that existence with the moral power and confidence in God's grace that he had in Christ.  Romans 7 is BC, Romans 8 is in Christ.

There will be suffering, and there will be joy.  I defy any one of us to compare our worst moment of "suffering" to those who found themselves in the colliseum, or as one of Nero's candles for naming Christ.  Our suffering is nothing in comparison!  Yes, we all have bad days, and in those we can often learn something, but certainly, if suffering was the necessary ingredient for holiness, almost zero Americans have been holy for many, many years.  Christians aren't tortured much in this country, and even in the most liberal congressional district, the churches are still open on Sunday.

I used to think that all believers were sort of at point zero.  They were saved from hell, but any progress they made from that point on would depend on them getting hooked up with mature christians and making choices to "go the way of the cross."  Of course, most people didn't make these choices properly, for various reasons....but I did!  Consequently I grew up in my faith more than most other christians....or so I thought. 

Now I see differently.  Every child of God is fully adopted and is a full member of God's household.  Each will have different experiences in life, and learn different things, even as each one will have gifts of service that may differ from another.  The point is that God knows, and He is more than able to bring about whatever things need to happen in order to accomplish His will in any one of us.

In the final analysis, none of us, not me or you can make the right choices, or do the right thing enough to become like Him.  However, we are told that when He appears, we shall be made like Him.....This implies that there will be a need for perfecting, regardless of how much one applies the cross, or any other tool. 

The danger in over applying Deeper Life stuff is that it becomes Galatianism.  We've covered all this before.

---

Sondra, I am curious how you arrived at the conclusion that demons are easy to deal with?  I would love to hear about any experience you had in this area.

Brent

Please ask me one of the questions, and i'll try to answer it.  I honestly didn't catch a list of detailed questions. ???

Ask one, two or three and I'll give it my level best.

Brent

on edit, I re-read your post and found 6 sentences that were questions, 4 of which were more of a thought process than an actual question.  The one that seemed like a question was this:


I thought I directly addressed that with my post.  It was all about Romans 7 and how it relates to our discussion of the cross.  I'm sure I missed something, or failed to do something that I should have, but if you would please be so kind as to just re-ask the questions, I'll give it another go. 

Also, if we were sawing wood, I would be doing equal work, as working a saw is something I understand quite well.  It was another matter with your post, which I understood to be an explanation of your views, and not really a question about something.

Brent

At one MWS, about 7-8 years ago George announced that he was reading a book which had to do with satanic worship.  I can't remember the title and do not want to advertize it anyway.  He was quite fascinated with this book.  I believe he justified much of what he did with Titus 1:15 To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled..  He was the pure, and any of us who puzzled about it did so because we were not pure.  The signs were there, we did not recognize it either.  Those who claim they recognized it and yet did not speak out, are guilty of the sin of pride.

Marcia

Sondra,

You said:


You have been back about two days, and you have already started your personal attacks. 

I am not going to discuss this with you, I am just going to delete any post containing a hint of this sort of thing.

Thomas Maddux

Marcia, is this a fact? Did he actually publicly disclose that he was in possession of and actually reading a book like this during a seminar??!!
Verne
p.s. most of us are loathe to publicly discuss conduct on our part that might be viewed as questionable.
If he was willing to talk about this in public, what was he doing in private?

It was a relatively new release novel; I do not remember the details.  The point I was wanting to make was re. Sondra's comment "George preached the Word" and us "Word centered people".  His preaching of the Word was so askew as to keep us "Word centered" around his interpretation and application of it.  Possibly he used Titus 1:15 to justify, to himself and his secretaries, what he was cooking in his kitchen. :P

People did not leave the assemblies because of their super-duper Word discernment abilities.  The assemblies crumbled because God intervened to pull us out of there.

Marcia

As I have stated many times before, George could not have gotten away with what he did without his enablers.
I am sure those close to him who knew the kind of man he was justified being partakers of his sin with:

"But he preaches the Word".

So what? So does the devil.

As Christians, I believe we have an obligation to be salt and light.
It is unthinkable, either volitionally or by inaction, that we should allow evil around us to progress unchallenged.

Verne

I never said there would not be any suffering in the Christian life. Suffering is a part of
being a human being, and more as a Christian due to tempatation, etc.  But the crucifixion
is an accomplished fact, and in the past tense.

In the Catholic Church the Crucifixion is far more emphasized than the Resurrection. In fact, the
Mass is a perpetual crucifixion, and the mood is one of constant solemnity, with the Gregorian chants,
and all the religiosity. This doesn't just apply to the Catholic Church--there are many Protestant
churches where all of this solemness takes the forefront.

But, the point I was making is that in the Assembly, and in many other legalistic churches, the suffering they "endure" has been self-imposed, by rigorous schedules, rules, sacrifices, etc. that
they use to go "the way of the cross". And they think they are becoming more and more holy
by endruing these things. This is much like monks or priests who deny themselves marriage, or
any of the enjoyments of life, thinking they are holier for doing this. They stay in Romans 7 as
a result, always at the cross, but never realizing the power of the Resurrection and the move into
Romans 8.

The angels said to Mary "Why do you look for the dead among the living?" In the Catholic Church, and others,  they worship a dead Christ, perpetually on a crucifix. But the true Christian message is that Christ has risen from the dead. "I am crucified with Christ" is an acknowledgement of a completed act--I now live in the joy of the resurrection. Any suffering that comes my way will be allowed by God, not self-imposed in an attempt by me to make myself holy, or to "go the way of the cross". I am not being crucified daily--I am being renewed daily by a "finished work" and the resurrection to a new life--"If any man be in Christ he is a new creation, all things have become new".

--Joe

Scripture does not entirely agree.

 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Ephesians 6:12

The degree to which we struggle with personal sin, is in my humble opinion more a matter of maturity, and a failure to recognize our true standing in Chirst. Paul repeatedly tells that we should no longer walk as we did in times past.

If salvation means anything, it means freedom from sin's domination.

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. Romans 6:14

1 John 1: 8 is no contradiction as I am not espousing sinless perfection. Who for example, can entirely control the thought life?
So, at least for the mature Christian, it seems to me that the focus of the struggle is not internal.
I think this is the experience of those truly growing in grace.
Verne

I'm not sure who is deleting Ruth's (Sondra's) posts, except that I'm sure I'm not doing it.

However, please stop it.  I don't think they warrant deletion at all, and I think whoever is doing it is being hyper-sensitive about it.

Deleting unpleasant, or even slightly rude speech isn't warranted, and I really don't think that either of her deleted posts were profane, blasphemous or rude.  They were opinionated and abrasive, but no more so than many of my posts, or even Tom's for that matter.

Honestly, when Tom refers to some of my positions in specious, irresponsible ways, I sometimes feel like deleting him, but I would never do it, because I respect him and his views, even if I disagree with them.

Again, there were things in Sondra's posts that I wanted to comment on, and now they are gone.  Please knock it off.  Deleting is rude and controlling in this instance....and perhaps a bit petty.

We don't need it here, and a moderator's skin should be a good deal thicker.  

Brent

---

This is what I wanted to comment on:
from Sondra yesterday.

Debate tactics and verbal combat 101 skills dictates that I latch on to this and score a decisive victory in about 4 paragraphs. 

However, decency and discretion dictate that I ask you to clarify what you mean here.  I have said many a thing that was taken out of context, or was poorly worded by me which resulted in someone misunderstanding my true position, so I offer you that courtesy.

Specifically, do you see yourself as an "annointed student of God," and does this imply that you are under the impression that most christians are not?  (Most christians go to church). 

Brent

Sondra, I do not know why the Jones and Koresh followers had a different ending than the Geftakys assemblies.  I do know, however, that the assemblies' ending was not because of our discernment.  In fact there are still some who are lamenting the loss of the "good ole days".

God bless,
Marcia

The Geftakys Assemblies have not ended.  That's the first thing to get straight.

Koresh and Jones both broke away from the "fringe" and became even more extreme, about 10 years prior to their end. 

We don't know how and where the Geftakys Assembly will end, but I am certainly glad that I'm not part of it.

Brent

I think the moderators are trying to find a balance. We after-all, do have some history to consider.
I thik Tom has made it clear that any posts that demean, deride, or unfairly attack and/ or characterize other posters ought not to be permitted. We all get occasionally get excited in the heat of the moment but none of us engage in this pattern of posting in a consistent manner.
The BB has by an large been a place of civility even in the face of occasional strong disagreement. I think we all would like to keep it that way.
Verne

re-stating what I posted before:

Sondra, I do not know why the Jones and Koresh followers had a different ending than the fallen Geftakys assemblies.  I do know, however, that the assemblies' ending was not because of our discernment.  In fact there are still some individuals who are lamenting the loss of the "good ole days". :P

However, those existing assemblies that remain faithful to George might end similarly to the Jones and Koresh followings. :( :'(

God bless,
Marcia

P.S.  my 2 cents re. post deleting matter:

Sondra was offended and stated her offense.  IMHO I do not feel that her post meritted deletion.  What if she was right after all?  We know she was wrong ;) but it is true that GG and his servants could not take criticism and promoted a code of silence.  By deleting her post, we may be guilty of doing the same.

There are other posters who use offensive language too, and it will be difficult to draw the line if a precedent is set here.

God bless,
Marcia

All,

I deleted Sondra's posts because of her past history.  Sondra has demonstrated that she will, if allowed to, disrupt the board and tie it up in personal wrangeles that go on ad infinitum.

Recall, if you will, what she did to Joe Sperling.  Joe made an innocuous joke about "what about those Braves" or some such team.  Sondra read it as a viscious personal attack and raged at Joe in post after post. 

Joe attempted to explain...rejected.  Sondra had discerned the true meaning of what he said. 

Joe apologized...to no avail.

Others interceded on Joe's behalf.   But Sondra would not stop until she had fully vented her spleen.  A spleen which, btw, had refilled itself pretty quickly after its extended venting aimed at Verne, who at least had done something to attract her wrath.

In that case, you will recall, I started a thread where she could speak her mind and defend herself.

Until it turned into vicious attacks on any and all who dared to disagree with her.

Please note that I did not delete any of her "deeper life" posts above.  Although when I read such things I do not know whether to laugh or cry, it still remains posted.

The reason is that they are about ideas that can be legitimately discussed even in disagreement.  They are not about ugly accusations and attacks on people's personalities, motives, and spiritual state.

In the past "flamers" have been kicked off the board by others.  Flamers come to boards to start fights that consume the board in interpersonal wrangles.

Posting ideas, arguing for a position, counter arguing....fine.

Flaming designed to ruin the board....not fine.

Thomas Maddux

While it's true that no one can predict the future, most people can learn from the past.  The fact that there is a certain pattern that the Koresh/Jonestown/Heaven's Gate type groups all follow is not in dispute.

Doctrinally, they were different, but culturally they all shared shockingly similiar practices.  Plenty of books are written about this stuff, all of them well researched and documented.

George's assembly has been travelling down the same path, just not as far as the one's mentioned above.  Of course, at one time Koresh and Applewhite weren't as bad as they eventually became....

Sondra, did you spend most of your church going life in the Assembly, or did you attend another place for several years?

The reason I ask, is because perception is everything.

Brent

Well, in answer to your question, many people have different ideas of what normal is.  For example,  I know a guy who grew up with hippie parents.  They lived at  The Esalen Institute in Big Sur, CA.

He and his parents went naked most of the time.  He grew up with naked people all around him, all the time.  

He wears clothes now, and is a decent, ethical person.  He is also a massage therapist, and works on naked people all the time.  No big deal to him at all.

Contrast that with someone who grew up Amish, or Muslim.

That's what I'm talking about when I said perception is everything.

What I was wondering was something like this.

You came back to God in the Assembly.  (so did I).  Your previous church experience was negative.  (mine was too)

You learned how to walk with The Lord in the Assembly, a good thing.
You left in order to grow more....again, all good.
You mention repeatedly that modern christianity is shallow, or lacking in one way or the other,

so....

your perception of things might cause you to think the Assembly was good, because it was good for you, in your estimation.

Contrast that with one of the many AK's who have told their story.  To them, the Assembly was living hell, and your old Nazarene church would seem like heaven.  

Most of us fall somewhere in between.  However, if we attempt to look at things objectively, hearing the story from all sides, reading the literature that was put out by George, recalling the things that were said and done, we begin to see a picture, and it's not a pretty one.

CAgirl had it way worse than my kids did.  Judy suffered far more than Suzie.  George made more money than Jim Heyman...perception is everything.  However, inspite of all the blind men feeling something different, they all have their hands on an elephant.

All I'm trying to do by asking this is determine where you are coming from, and get to know you better.  

People who don't know me might have a very different impression about who I am if all they knew about me was what they read on the BB here.  They may not know that I am up several thousand dollars over the last two weeks from poker, or that my daughter won a county writing award, or that one of my sons is a really good wrestler, etc.

So, I am just trying to get to know you better, because it helps me to understand where you are coming from.

Brent

Thanks Sondra,

I like what you said below, I would just bring up the quote above.  Remember that Jesus associated with the weak, sick, unclean and lukewarm. 

He condescended to us.  Search yourself and see if you don't have a tendency to get in the flesh when people aren't serious enough.  I have my own hot buttons that cause me to get riled up.

Brent

Yup.

I feel much the same way when it comes to the homeless. 

As for the lukewarm, let me rephrase that.  Jesus hung out with many people that were flakey, and inconsistent in their committment.  Peter comes to mind.  In revelation, He is near enough to the lukewarm to give them a prophetic warning.  He still loves them, and is near by.

Is it good to be lukewarm?  Of course not.  But if the Lord goes out to them, I will too.  That's all I meant.  In no way did I mean to say that it was good to be lukewarm....it's certainly not.

Brent

Hey Yall,
   Sorry to cut in here on the debate of the current assembly’s demise but I had a “Weird Teaching” pop into my head and wondered if anyone remembered it. Being a teenager and really not to interested in my grandpa's latest scheme to control, ::) I never took the time to understand his teachings on levels of heaven. What I do remember is this. It was something to the effect that the more committed to God you were the higher you place in heaven would be. It was explained to me by Betty I think that in my case, my mom and dad could have a higher place in heaven than me and that would leave me separated from them for eternity. I remember the teaching going so far as to say that if you were not committed enough to God it was possible to go to heaven but be separated from Him. Almost like a popularity thing. You would be in heaven but have to “sit at the loser’s table” What was that about?  ??? ??? ???

BALDERDASH! Don't even sweat it. The only person sitting at a looser's table is going to be George himself...and it probably won't be in heaven...
Verne

Verne,
   Thanks for trying to comfort me. I KNOW I’m not at the loser’s table. I’m not nervous about my place in heaven at all. I’m just wondering if anyone (maybe from SLO) remember this teaching and if this is even remotely believed by main stream Christians? But BALDERDASH is well said.  ;D

There are no losers in heaven. We are all winners, won at the cross. It's heaven because He is there. "I go to prepare a place for you, that where I am, you may be also". 

Hi Sondra!

  I don't often get a chance to visit the BB during the week and was surprised to discover that one of  your post's was deleted; I believe it was a post of yours that was responding to one I made where I asked a number of questions re.: "GG gave us the word of God and so did us good."

  I also think that I saw a quote from that post of yours that suggested that I was saying that I thought you had a demon---- This was not my opinion, nor was I attacking you personally.

  I asked a lot of questions in that post of mine because I wanted to be clear as to what you were trying to say, not to win any kind of debate (I just don't care about that kind of thing).

  Maybe if I shared some of my history with you it would help you understand my perspective on your views of "inner life."

  At a young age (12) I had already read, "Walden Pond" by David Thoreau, and also eagerly ate up other Transcendentalist authors.  I was a hippie in spirit before the movement began and gave my heart and soul to transcending the mundane and entering into a deeper spiritual life.

  This was not merely some kind of scholar's pursuit for me, but one where I pursued with great intensity actual experiences.

 This inner pathway to higher awareness and spiritual power was achieved by considerable effort--- I fasted long and often, sometimes spent days in meditation, and generally applied myself to lose self----- You see, in Eastern religion death to self is the key to inner peace and spiritual power.

  And, it does indeed work!  I achieved a considerable level of inner control and mastery over self.  This is what some would call "holiness" and they also would consider it a good thing (in contrast to something like Black Magic.)  I considered myself, and so did many others, as a very good person with a strong devotion to higher spiritual values.

  The power I started to gain from my deeper life experiences started to scare me, and eventually stirred my conscience, causing me to consider the message of the Bible.

  I do not believe that I was demon possessed, but when I started to think that what I was doing was wrong I became very heavily oppressed by some spiritual force.

  There is much more of what I could share, but I hope that you can see why I get alarmed when I hear from you what I think is a Christianized version of the inner path that I followed prior to salvation.

  I know a major difference is that you name the name of Christ, but so have a number of mystic religions from the past, such as the Gnostics, but as Paul says it is really a "pseudo Christ."

   Before you get all riled at the last paragraph I am not saying that you are a Gnostic, or preach a "pseudo Christ," but somtimes it sure sounds like my former religious pursuit.

  I need to make some important distinctions re. what I now believe to be "deep" spirituality vs. my Eastern mystic days and Assembly thinking/experiences.  I would like to expand on my experiences in the Assembly and after leaving it, in regard to "deeper life", if you are willing to discuss this with me.  I will try not to be rude or offend you, but I am not willling to sacrafice the truth in that effort--- there's simply too much at stake here.

                                            God Bless,  Mark C.
     

Hi Sondra,

   I feel like my "tone" is the same as it was on the first post, but if you thought I was calling you "demon possessed"  >:D on the prior one that could certainly be perceived as a negative.  It most certainly is not my intention to be sarcastic or ridicule you.

   As to "demon influence vs. possession": 

   A lot of what we think is spiritual (either demonic or divine) is just psychological in nature.  That does not mean that how we think/believe/perceive/act can't be traced back to an evil spiritual force.

   Without the devil/demons we have physic abilities as humans; some have more and others less.  We have a subconscious that senses things, and to this day I still have a very heightened sensitivity to "the psychic atmosphere" around me.  When we rely on this human ability we can at times discover it is useful, but it is an open door to demonic influence, or just entering a private world of delusion.

   The long and short of how to avoid getting onto the wrong side of this psychic (in the biblical sense of psychic--the soul) activity is a willingness to test the inner voice with the truth of the bible and advice from outside our inner world.  Our inner abilities are a very complicated mixed bag that carries heavy amounts of skewed perceptions--- in other words our inner world is an untrusty source for a basis for knowing God.

   The latter, not in the Assembly sense of "seeking counsel," but as in the James exhortation to be "easily entreated."  An angry rejection of those suggesting that the inner voice you hear may not be from God is a sure sign of trouble for the believer--- this is not being easily entreated, and again as James says it is therefore a very bad sign--- i.e., sensual (soulish) wisdom from below.)

   Humility is a sure sign of spirituality, and in a later post I would like to share an example of what I mean by this.  However, right now I also have a devilish task to perform, as my wife is forcing me to clean out the garage!!!!! >:D ;) ;)  Husbands are a very abused class in America!! :'( :P ;) ;)  No my wife is not demon possessed, but I think that the garage might be!! ;D >:D

                                                  God Bless,  Mark C.

CAGirl, This sounds like Purgatory from Roman Catholicism with GG giving it a fresh spin/twist. Summer.

CAGirl, the doctrine you describe is pretty much my understanding also of George's teaching. For starters, there was the successive raptures, with the best people going first. Then there was the matter of clothing. We are busy right now weaving our heavenly wedding garments out of our righteousnesses, so some of us may not look too good. Then there is the wedding feast of the Lamb, with guest seating arranged according to merit, some close up, and others far back, and, yes, there will be those who are left outside. And there will be some who are "hurt of the second death", in other words, who are burned, and they also are Christians  ???.

This is a merit scheme to motivate the saints to more fervent commitment to all the meetings, more generous giving, greater involvement in outreaches, more abject submission to everyone above them in the power structure, etc. Very, very few Christians believe any of this. The Bible teaches one resurrection, to either eternal life or eternal punishment. The same degree of righteousness for us all - the righteousness of Christ himself. Union with Christ for us all as part of the Bride. The Bible hints of rewards and crowns that may be given in addition, but doesn't make any big deal of it. Have you seen the popular story about The Room that is making the email circuit?  http://www.joshharris.com/theroom/originalarticle.htm. It's a great story and is a good picture of judgment day. It makes you realize that any rewards we may receive are insignificant compared to God's love for us in Christ.

This represents the core of all false holiness teaching, i.e. acquisition of holiness by methodology.
In George's world, you were nothing until approved and/or annointed by him or his underlings.
Many spent their entire tenure trying to become something.
The most powerful and liberating thing for me personally was to realise that I am called to live a holy life not because my own obedience to such a call effectuates holiness, but rather the reverse.
It is only because of our standing in Christ, that holiness is even possible, and in fact for each believer has been made the reality. It is entirely appropriate to our state!
This really changes the way we look at sin, and slowly it begins to dawn on our consciousness, that what is indeed strange and unseemly, is for us to be under its dominion.
I am not sure why we so often have trouble believing this simple truth.
No wonder God has to renew our minds.
Verne
p.s. The affections is one of the first areas in which I believe men who love Christ feel and see his cleansing work.
This is fundamental.
If you cannot win this battle, you may as well leave the field for you are nothing but a liability.
 It has been a very difficult thing for me to uderstand how such a boaster like Geftakys could have done what he did...there are some godless men whose sense of personal pride would not have permitted it...

Hello Sondra,

  As is often the case, I was out on the road for the week and unable to keep up with my BB correspondence---- please forgive my tardy response.

  Yes, I see that we "do have a failure to communicate"  ;) , and this is the chief advantage of having a continuing discussion: i.e., it presents an opportunity for us to define our terms.

  The reason that I did not use "scripture" in my previous post is that it was an attempt to explain from my history why I have responded to your views in a negative way.  Much of the way that your posting "sounds" is reminiscient of my Eastern religious past.

  I was not attempting a theological debate re. demonic power, etc. nor would I expect that my previous post would be considered my attempt to "teach" a biblical truth at all.  My past experiences in the spiritual realm are a lesson in confusion and to be avoided at all costs!

  When you asked my "opinion" re. the nature of demon possession, etc., the answers were just off the top of my head and based on my own experiences.  Whether someone's behavior is controlled by demons, the devil, or their own depravity/deception is a judgment that I cannot make with any certainty.  In my post I was trying to assure you that I was not trying to insinuate that you were "possessed", as you seem to think that I was saying.

 I was surprised that you are calling for me to make a "scriptural" argument re. these questions at all, since I understood that you believed that this was "dead letter" kind of theological stuff.  Possibly, I am mistaken re. this, and if you would like to have a discussion based on the bible that would be great!

  Re. your perception that I was speaking in "psychological terminology":

  I was not aware that this is what I was doing, and hope that you will point this out to me in the future.  I do try to relate biblical teaching to human experience (as in Wounded Pilgrims) and especially as it intersects the recovery of former cult members.

  There must be a human context for our lives as Christians, because we are not soul-less spirit beings.  The rejection of the honest evaluation of our own humanity is a form of escapism that leads away from godliness and into all kinds of false religiosity.

  Scriptural examples for the above abound:  Consider the life of Jacob, Peter, Thomas, Paul, etc.  There is a reason that the bible provides us with the real life experiences of these men as it amplifies doctrinal truths.  I guess that you could say that the HS provided a psychological study of Peter for us when we see him trying to follow Jesus, failing, recovering, and learning what it means to walk with Him in this life.

  Re. "hearing voices":  I do not hear audible voices from the beyond, but often I feel like my thoughts are directed in some kind of a way (from within).  I agree with you that to respond to these would be superstitious and very unreliable.  I am glad that you see this, and in a later post I would like to discover what you mean by experiencing God's direction from some kind of inner sense.

  I must go now because I'm hearing voices!  No, it is only one voice, and it is my wife saying, "time for dinner"! ;)  Talk to you later.  ;)

                                                     God Bless,  Mark C. 

I've heard reference made several times to something George would say about a "giant hand". Could someone 'splain this for me please?

Since I'm on EDT I am one of the first to read and respond to these late night posts, except for Verne, don't know how he does it since he is 1 hour west of me.  Maybe he dreams about the BB ...

Anyway I did a search for Joe Sperling's posts and came up with this link for the original GiantHand story:
www.assemblyboard.com/index.php?topic=226.msg12133#msg12133 (http://www.assemblyboard.com/index.php?topic=226.msg12133#msg12133)

Enjoy.
Marcia

on edit:
www.assemblyboard.com/index.php?topic=226.msg11611#msg11611 (http://www.assemblyboard.com/index.php?topic=226.msg11611#msg11611)

Marcia

Actually, the original post is in the same thread but dated August 14, 2003. The link is to
an additional post the next month. But these were jokes based on a story that George
told in the past concerning a "Giant Hand" George's mother said she saw rescue him as
a child. George repeated the story a few times probably to reinforce a concept that he
was very special, and annointed, and completely covered by God. At least, that's how I
understand it Night Owl.


--Joe

I also remember George's story and I think Joe is right about it's meaning.