AssemblyBoard

this is what assy folks are used to - doing.  there must be a huge void in the lives of many who have been taught "first things" for decades (in some cases). former leaders from the assy - i would suggest strongly that you should not do this... get envolved in a leadership capacity in a local church...give it some time.  this would be good counsel to all who might be tempted.  church leaders often spot those who know the scriptures and often don't realize how deep seeded the former assy folks are infected with a certain interpretation of the scriptures that seems on the surface edifying, encouraging, etc. but underneath is a spirit of superiority and natural knowledge.  this combination makes for a religious person that reasons his/her way into the presence of God. the only thing is when they get there they find instead of God on the throne, they see a reflection of themselves. "oh well, no matter, the people are liking it - perhaps God will show up eventually if i just keep going here".  

what to do?  i would encourage each brother who has been encouraged to give ministry (which is to encourage someone to be somebody) to learn how to be quiet in spirit and be taught by godly books such as soul and spirit by jesse penn lewis.  read books that will teach you about the inner life.......God will eventually manifest His work in you and for you.  a man will not need to call you forward - God will.

sisters, i would encourage you to get with godly women who haven't been in the assy or those who have worked throughr their former perspective of "submission" to our counterparts.  i hear the spirit of "greater worth" by some of the men posting and it gives me a pain.  it's so very unfortunate that men have been taught that women are somewhat worthless when it comes to deep spiritual understanding.  in the spiritual realm there is no gender.  we are either walking in the spirit or walking in the natural man....

and i would encourage sisters to read the same books as mentioned above and find out who you are in Christ.  don't take second seat to anyone...when God hasn't.  

sisters, learn a new meaning for obedience....obedience to God by hearing His voice in your inner man of the heart...He wants to lead you directly, not through somebody else, regardless of gender.  if you are a relatively new beleiver, you will necessarily need to be open to older, more experienced spiritual leaders....but be sure they are truly spiritual.  one earmark is that they will not be bossy or authoritative.  
sisters who have walked with the Lord for some time - be courageous and stand on your own two feet and let God lead you even when men disagree.  

this is not a call to rebellion and/or rudeness.  this is a call to take control of your life and confer with God on things.  men don't have an exclusive on hearing God.  men were not born to spiritual priviledge and women to submission to them.  women, as well as men were born to be a direct spiritual descendent to Christ  as He is formed in your spirit.  

to all i would encourage you to ask more questions on this bb instead of having so many answers.  many have held back from posting because of allot of postings that are argumentative and some downright silly.  some, although very insecure, spiritually speaking, feel secure apparently.  but those who are poor, and blind, and naked....come and buy gold. i'm not talking about groveling and sounding humble, i'm speaking of having a spirit of searching for the truth on issues.  get new meanings for old words falsly taught.

my concern is that in hearing many will not hear...but only what words have meant in the past by teachers who didn't have spiritual understanding.  why is it that the ones who recieve the word through the natural mind and reason are often the first to try to teach?  i'll answer my own question, it's because it is easy to teach if one doesn't see the value of waiting a period of time for the spiritual understanding to deepen.  it's on the surface and strong minds can grab it fast and it feels oh so good to be all "godly".  

come out from amoung them and be ye seperate saith the Lord and touch not the unclean thing.  this unclean thing is our natural self, self as the center.  this is where fear and many other enemies abide and plague us. God is calling us to leave all that dominates us that is of a natural origin and step over into our spirit man, that new man of the heart - where we can hear Him.  the natural man is carnal and cannot hear the Lord, but the spirit man can......and our spirit man will grow-----once we get out from under all of these other voices.  knowledge puffs up, but love edifies.  

Dear Affirming:
  It sounded like you were responding to some questions on a thread, but I am unable to locate what you are responding to.  I say this because it made it difficult for me to understand what you were getting at.
   What you described as understanding the Bible is very similar to what the Assembly taught, or possibly a Local church (Witness Lee) type teaching of the spiritual life.  GG was very opposed to "natural study" of the Bible and believed in a mystic means he called "heart knowledge."  Witness Lee described a cognitive grasp of the Bible as "being in the mind", to which some responded that "he was out of his." ;)  
  We can easily grasp the wonderful simplicity that there is in the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  I certainly agree that before a former leader of the Assembly decides to teach and lead again they should first unlearn their past and start over again as a simple sheep and be taught what be the first principles of the Christian faith.
   We don't bypass the mind, but seek renewal of the mind, that we can see the truth of the Gospel of Grace.  In the Assembly we were bewitched to leave that simplicity and to head into the "depths" of "higher life" teaching.  
   The Gospel is simple, but because of our past it can be difficult to internalize, and for this reason there needs to be a process of renewal and restoration that will take years before we are able to "teach others also".
    I have been out for almost 12 years now and I'm suprised at how much of the old Assembly stuff is still hanging on in my soul.  It is a constant battle for me to avoid the old patterns of thought and feeling that arise in certain situations.  I believe God can turn our weakness into his strength, but again such preparation takes time.
    We have been wounded, and some more deeply than others, and because of that God can use the lessons we've learned in a special way to help those who have been similarly hurt.
    For those former Assem. leaders who are thinking of trying to lead a new reformation of the Assembly I urge you rather to choose the path of humilty.  You can never go wrong with being humble before God.  There is no rush with God for us to quickly get moving in "The Great Eternal Purpose" of the Church.  God took 40 years to prepare Moses, 14 years for Paul, etc.  Slow down!  Take Brent's challenge of six weeks off.  Think; be honest; let some of the events of the last month sink in.  You are no less a spiritual person for doing the above and have nothing to fear but the loss of a lot of negative baggage.
                                  God Bless,  Mark
   
   

dear mark c, it's not until we get beyond the mind into the heart that a real communion and fellowship with the Lord can be developed.  natural reasoning is dangerous and many who have followed the natural interpretation of the scriptures have justified some crazy things.  God created us as spiritual beings and to live a Spirit dominated life.  God is Spirit and they who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.  it's not until one really starts to question himself and takes a stand against his natural man and it's mind that great spiritual growth can manifest through the Spirit of Christ.  

some of the mystics really saw through the legalism of religion...but there's a tendency toward living a converted life in the spirit without actually finding reconciliation of the life of the spirit and soul.  there must be a working out of the spirit life into the soul realm of our lives.  this harmony is the "lion laying down with the lamb."

manyt people don't realize that it is possible to truly understand the inner life dynamics and workings.  just because one doesn't at first understand the terms and the language doesn't mean it isn't based upon the truth of God.  spiritual discernment teaches spiritual things.  natural reasoning teaches things that have to do with morals, good works, etc.  the natural wars against the spiritual and the spiritual against the natural.  there is a natural interpretation and there is a spiritual interpretation.  the natural is about first principles and the spiritual is about "after all fails and there is a tremendous conversion that takes place in the life."  
i left the assy 17 years ago.  although spiritual understanding was taught in word - it was not in fact.  men and women were taught to do works and were encouraged to find their value in their availability, committment, etc. to the work of growing the assy.  scriptures were used to give a vision of the testimony, locally expressed and thereby were "roped in."  while in fellowship i began to learn out of my own need and innner misery that it was only through walking in the spirit that i could have fellowship with God who is Spirit.  then, of course, i realized i had someone to deal with and it wasn't george and betty - it was my SELF.  yes, some of these things were taught in the assy, but some of these things are true.  the problem is that these true teachings were accompanied by cruel taskmasters that negated the sweet truth.  but God is able to turn the bitter into sweet once we awaken and move over into the spirit life.     affirming

     You gotta admit, Brother Mark, she's been there.  Nobody would say those things unless they'd been through that wringer you and i know so well.

     Sister, God bless you.  You've seen a lot.  And you seem to be learning to learn a lot.  (It's never about how much you already know, but always about what you're learning by hearing the Lord's voice NOW).

     To me, the most convincing facet of your comments is that you don't seem to be seeking anything for yourself by posting on the BB.  Your plea to others is not about our recognizing how right you are, but seems to come from a genuine concern that we may be free from bondage and secure in our knowledge of the Lord.

     i hope you feel welcome among us, and that we may expect to hear much more from you in the days ahead.

     "Now what to do?"--  

     (1.)  Pray, "Lord, what do you want me to do?"

     (2.)  If you don't get a crystal clear answer,
             KEEP PRAYING!!!  (If you DO get an
             answer, still keep praying).

Sincerely,
brother al

Dear Affirming:
  Thank you so much for your response.  I will have to make this a quick response and will not be able to get back to the BB until next weekend (I'm usually gone during the week).
   I believe it is dangerous to teach that the mind must be passed over to reach the heart.  I was saved out of eastern mysticism and the belief that the mind blocks the spirit is exactly what they teach.  Such teaching opens one to false spiritual experiences and can lead to demonic oppression.  There is nothing unspiritual in the mind if it has been renewed by the Spirit of God.  The mind is the instrument of God wherby the words of God are understood.  It is that understanding that brings us conviction re. who God is and the nature of the Gospel.
   Having a lobotomy will not make a person more spiritual.  When we try to set aside thinking the only thing left is feeling, and consequently the ability for discernment is taken away.  We must base our Christian lives on faith, as the Bible teaches us.  Faith is a conviction re. what is true, regardless of how I'm feeling.  We don't deny our feelings, but we will be misguided if they direct our decisions as if they are God's direction for our lives.  Our feelings do tell us things and it is healthy to look at that, but what they tell us is usually more about the effects of our fallen nature.  We must be honest with our own inner life.  However, we must seek an objective understanding of the nature of God and His Gospel in dealing with our deepest parts.
   There are many different ways that we can get off on the track of assigning emotions as the promptings of the Spirit, but this will lead to enormous ups and downs and is not a healthy spiritual life.  I discussed some of this in the Wounded Pilgrims thread, but to my dismay it has been deleted, and I will have to get back to you on my description of how the Assembly used this false mysticism to manipulate it's members.
                              God Bless,  Mark

Mark and Affirming,

     "Wounded Pilgrims" has not been deleted from the BB.
Use the "Search" feature to locate it-- there are ten pages of posts.

al

Hi there,

Affirming wrote,"
manyt people don't realize that it is possible to truly understand the inner life dynamics and workings.  just because one doesn't at first understand the terms and the language doesn't mean it isn't based upon the truth of God.  spiritual discernment teaches spiritual things.  natural reasoning teaches things that have to do with morals, good works, etc.  the natural wars against the spiritual and the spiritual against the natural.  there is a natural interpretation and there is a spiritual interpretation.  the natural is about first principles and the spiritual is about "after all fails and there is a tremendous conversion that takes place in the life."  

Your post has given me a flash of what some call "Deja Vu".

You see, I once spent an hour alone with George Geftakys during which he gave me a tutorial on how to understand the Bible.  I took careful notes and when I got home I wrote them up and put them into a notebook for future reference.  I found the notebook a couple of years ago when cleaning out my garage, but I didn't throw it away.
I happened on this paper a couple of weeks ago and re-read it.

Essentially, George believed, taught and practiced exactly what you have posted!

I have learned in my years since I left the assembly that GG taught essentially what was taught by the leaders of the Catechal School of Alexandria in the early centuries of Christianity.  The teachers of this school, men like Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and  Methodius.  The ideas taught in this school led to, and CONTINUE to lead to many problematic teachings and practices.

Many of the heresies condemned by councils in the early centuries of Christianity arose from men trained in this method.   George Geftakys, Witness Lee and many many others have justified their aberrant teachings by an appeal to "deeper understanding" or "greater light".   That is, the reason you don't agree with me,according to them, is that you have a merely natural understanding of the scriptures, but I have a deeper, revelatory, understanding recognized by truly spiritual individuals.

Although I was not there to hear him teach it, I have heard that GG began to teach that what the Bible REALLY teaches about the creation of man was that it took place on the seventh day.  When confronted about this, he said, "It's revelatory".    

Another point I'd like to make is that this method of Biblical interpretation is what was believed by the Gnostics, who were centered in Egypt during the early centuries.  They read their Bibles believing that their state of spiritual advancement gave them the ability to gain "deeper" insight and "higher" truth.  

According to my Bible, spiritual truth is communicated in words, (I Cor 2:13-14).  If one feels he/she has great insight, let him speak his understanding out into the world of human discourse in words, where others can understand and evaluate.  The "mystics" feel that they see as other men do not see.  The only way to find out if they really do is to state clearly what one sees, and then see if it holds up under examination.

By the way, here is a quote from Clement of Alexandria, "...the holy mysteries of the prophecies are veiled in parables-preserved for CHOSEN MEN, selected to knowledge in consequence of their faith; for the style of the Scriptures is parabolic."

George Geftakys believes he is one of those "chosen men".

I don't.

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

al thanks for your warm welcome.  mark i'm sorry for your past difficulty, but let's not throw out the baby with the dirty bath water.  it sounds like you've been envolved in at least a couple extreme religious movements.  and it sounds like you have concentrated on the mind's function in the workings of a "normal" christian life.  the mind is important as long as it's under the power of our human spirit.  it is in fact influenced by it, but it is a question of the will as to who will dominate.  yes the mind must be renewed, but it is only renewed by the choices of the will.  "i will to trust You" is a command to the mind from the will, influenced by love - love of God...because i love...i will...so then our mind can be controlled by our own will ...yielding to the Lord and His will.  excuse me for getting so technical...but truly we are spirit, soul, and body.  we have parts and they work well together if we know how to use them.  the perversion comes in when someone isn't clear as to who they love most and doesn't will a specific thing and doesn't let the mind know who choices are going to be in favor of.  emotions then are all over the board, thoughts are out of control, fear begins to find it's mouth and talks to us until we're just crazy...so control of the mind is important, but still this control must be based upon who i love most which is spiritual.  i call my natural man the fool in my house.  i don't let him just do what he wants.  it is important to be specific so that the people of God are given weapons to fight confusion.  there's no need to be without a defense when seducers are around.  feeling of fear and worthlessness will come in and apply escruciating pain if we are not clear on who we love.    affirming

tom, my post crossed yours...i think i did get specific.  the scriptures teach clearly the workings of the cross,  of reckoning faith, for example, and how we are delivered from the "old man" through reckoning faith.  there is no resurrection life without reckoning faith.  i think we can get too complicated and paranoid to the point that distrust will be taught.  if God's people can be helped to understand "what to do" perhaps they will get some releif from their pain and i am sure that some will be kept from going to the world.  you're getting too intellectual for me.  i am a simple christian that has been broken to smytherines.  it's through getting to the bottom that qualifies us to help others who are on the bottom.  i could describe the wallpaper.....on the bottom.  affirming

Affirming,

     How very fortunate you are:  the bottom where you were had wallpaper!!!    Mark, Tom and i have been where there weren't even walls...  just lots and lots of BOTTOM!!!
     No, Sister Dear, i am not making light of your experience.  i am just exercising my ability to be a smart aleck.  ;o)

     Your remarks sound serious enough that i expect you'll be sticking around here for a while, so i'll tell you this:
     This bulletin board is an open forum.  You'll hear from all kinds of people here.  Some are wise; some aren't.  Likewise the qualities of knowledge, kindness, clarity, generosity, love:  some express these & some only think they do.  A few seem to be utterly clueless.  And i'm pretty sure that not a single one of us is smart enough to know the difference every time.
     The thing we all have in common is that Christ died for each of us.  We share a common need of his forgiveness, mercy, protection, guidance and wisdom.
     The three of us you've encountered here thus far are as different as three brothers can be.  But we share a mutual  respect enough to pay attention to each other's posts, and we doubt each other and ourselves enough to pray about everything we read here. (Tom, Mark: am i speaking out of turn?)  It is the course of action i recommend for everyone who attends these pages...

brother al

I would be interested in people's thoughts and comments on the idea of "reckoning faith":

When I read Romans 6, I always think of an analogy that I got, I believe, from John Stott in his book “Men Made New”.  

Twenty years ago, there would have been no problems with me dating any woman willing to go out with me (Assembly rules aside).  In fact, assuming that I was acting with respect (and was able to meet these women) I could have gone to dinner three different times in a week with three different women I was trying to get to know.

Today, if I were to date, it would be a major scandal.  Why?  Because I am married now!

I behaved in a certain way when I was single.  However, on my wedding day, I became something I never was before – a married man.  Because I am something different, it is only reasonable to believe that I would act according to what I am.  If, as a man married for 16 years, I told my wife not to wait up because I am taking this sweet young girl I met to the movies, the anger and outrage would be rightfully expressed to me in no uncertain terms.  

This is Paul’s essential argument in Romans 6.  When people were criticizing his gospel because they thought that “too much forgiveness and grace” would actually motivate Christians to sin.  Paul replies that they misunderstand the very nature of the gospel.  If Christ is our representative substitute on the cross, then we are associated with his death and resurrection.  Or, put another way, we became something that we no longer were before – a Christian justified and glorified in God’s eyes.  If I am such a being, it is as inconceivable for me to go out and “sin so I can get forgiven” as it is for me to start dating other women at this point in my marriage.  We don’t take these thoughts seriously because of what we have become.

Reckoning faith is not a special kind of faith, but simply walking with the perspective that the gospel truth is really true.  Here in the South, we would say, “Yup, I’m saved, I reckon.”   (Sorry, I had to throw that in).  In other parts of the country it may sound like the drug addict who said after he became a Christian, “Jesus don’t need no drugs,” as he threw them in the trash or the man who drives by the bar on the way home and says “what would I as a Christian do in there?”

Unfortunately, in the Assembly the idea of “reckoning faith” became something more than simply acknowledging the truth of the gospel.  

First it became a technique – almost a mantra from Harry Potter’s wand - to overcome besetting sins.  Unfortunately, this didn’t always seem to work.  How many times has someone said something to you that makes your blood boil?  Do we, in that moment, just say “I reckon this dead” and the anger goes away?  The only way I know how to deal with this is to go outside, take a thirty-minute walk until I begin to cool down and can look at the situation with a cooler head.

If you ever met a man trapped in sexual addition, you soon learn that you can’t simply say “what you are doing is sin” (he knows that) or “well, just reckon it dead” (he can’t that’s why he needs help).  I suppose you can blame him for not believing hard enough until he is filled with such despair that he leaves you alone.  Or you can surround him with “accountability partners” 24/7 to keep him from acting out on his compulsive thoughts.  Or you can try and cast out his demons.  Or you can get someone trained to help him discover why he is angry or feels afraid or feels inadequate so he can begin to understand why he has such a hard time embracing the gospel emotionally.  I think this man’s sins can be overcome, but it is not a single sentence solution.
 
Second, there seemed to be an aspect to the practical application of reckoning faith that denies the very essence of person and personality.  Betty would tell us the story that if we were truly a dead corpse, someone could come and pull our hair and we would not respond.  This is true.  If I had no feelings, no emotions, no aspirations, and no cognitive thought, I wouldn’t care if someone took a blowtorch to my leg.

The problem is that I do have feelings, emotions, aspirations, and cognitive thought.  And I would care very much if someone came up and pulled my hair.  Do I really believe that reckoning on my identity with Christ is supposed to reverse that?

I have never found this “reckoning faith” as an overcomer technique helpful.  If I fall into besetting sin, I resolve to actively reckon myself dead to the sin.  When I fall again, I hear about how I can’t reckon in the flesh, but let God do it.  So I try to “let go, let God” but fall again.  I am told that I can’t be passive, but I must actively “reckon myself dead”.  So, I am brought full circle.  Again, I am not saying that these difficult sins can’t be faced.  If we are Christians, they must be faced.  I am saying that they are not overcome through quick techniques and glib answers.

Am I saying that Paul in Romans 6 is out to lunch?  No, may it never be.  I think it is a very sound argument for the truth of the gospel and it does well for us to think, “I want to behave in a way that is in keeping with the gospel by which I am redeemed.”  But, to extend it to a “How to overcome all besetting sins in your life by denying your very essence” – to be honest, I haven’t found that this works very well.

dear dave, i believe reckoning faith is a faith of a certain phase of our lives in Christ that is past the stage of loving and serving the world and it's lusts -  being a slave to sin and getting over into the promised land of a life of consistant love, joy, and peace in the spirit.  it is a dark transitional time and it seems to be a long 40 year journey of wandering.  darkness seems to accompany it as well as a cloud by day and a fire by night - we see as through a glass darkly.
yes, i know the failure of trying to manage "the rebellious fool in the house" - my own self life...but the important thing is to be taught and understand that along with the natural man who is weak we have a second life that is being renewed every day and is able to grow stronger and stronger apart from our own ability to see it growing.  ever try to watch anything grow?  this is faith.  
most of us are not very tolerant with our sinful selves and even less tolerant with the sin in others.  this intolerance in itself is part of our own sinful nature that must die.  as growth is unapparent, so is this kind of death....but each time we give this enemy with us a kick in the head by our will not serving him, but turning and serving the spirit life - he gets a little more manageable.  in my case, i had to get clear on what is real and what are only my feelings.  the more i worked on this the stronger i became in controlling my natural man.  there are some practical things which i know you've heard.  keeping watch over the soul gates.  these are assy originals - these are old principles and i have learned the importance.  if we feed a fire it will burn. the sad truth is that to be close to the Lord is our priviledge not His.  if it wasn't difficult, wouldn't everyone be in the front seat in His presence.  the price has to be paid.  everyone does what they do for the payoff.  there's always a payoff of some sort.  

I realize in my last post, I vastly changed the subject.  The subject was discussing the validity of a "deeper meaning" method of interpreting the Bible.  I picked up on the reckoning faith idea and moved it into a new direction.  Sorry.

I posted my "reckoning faith" article on a new thread called "Overcoming and Reckoning Faith" until the "Bible" section.  I would appreciate people's thoughts on the Assemblies teaching of overcoming through death to self as well as the practical question of how we should deal with sin and ungodly habits in our lives today.

Affirming,

A few thoughts on your reply to my post.

1. Exactly what do you mean by "reckoning faith"?  Is it different from "regular" faith?  How does one know one has this kind of faith?

2. "There is no resurrection life without reckoning faith".

What exactly is "resurrection life".  I know that Christ is our life, Col 3:4, and he has been resurrected.  Is there more than one kind of Christ's life?

3. "I think we can get too complicated and paranoid".  
 
Paranoid???  I don't think so.  Everyone who wants to understand what these terms mean is nuts?????

As to being too complicated, what I am doing is asking you to be precise.  We think in words.  Words can be expressed in writing or speech.  If we know it, we can say it.  If we can't say it, we don't know it.  

Do you really know something "deeper", or are you just repeating phrases you have picked up along the way?

I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but I really don't think that telling people one has a "higher" or "deeper" understanding is helpful to anyone, UNLESS you can tell us what that understanding is.

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

tom,
1.  reckoning faith is a faith that God counts as righteousness.  the believer has not received the promises and fulfilled righteousness yet, but it is as if he/she had in God's eyes.  it is a certain judgment of God that accepts a certain person's efforts of faith based upon the finished work.  

also the believer uses reckoning faith in that he/she knows that they are working on some issues in their life and haven't fulfilled all righteousness in their life yet.  they still have pride, temper out of control, impure motives, selfishness, etc.  and so, rather than be discouraged, God has provided a standing whereby we may understand that because we are walking by faith, as with abraham, we're counted as righteous.  the issue of dealing with sin becomes allot less discouraging if we understand that God accepts my faith....that i'm busy and diligently working on a situation...have not licked it yet...but God knows i'm heading in the direction of righteousness...by faith.  

this is loving and ingenuous on God's part because, as the rich young ruler found the whole requirement of the law undoable - he went away sad.  so have i on many occasions not understanding "reckoning faith".  i finally realized, if God reckons it, why shouldn't i do the same.

is r/f different that reg faith?  i don't know, but could only speculate that generally faith can mean allot of things that someone believes will happen, etc. -it depends on the context i suppose.

how does one know if he has this r/f?  i would say that if one is believing on what God says about his/her justification through faith, they would be aware of a certain freedom from self-condemnation.  of course, this knowledge increased and does the release and joy ...even in the midst of not having conquered some of the sin every one of us has to contend with.

I will try to respond to the rest when i get back from vacation - going to cozumel.  hey, by the way, worryfreevacations.com has a 7 night deal, round trip tickets for 2, buffet breakfast every am, and $50 for beverages for $850 TOTAL.  all of your who are weary come to cozumel.  

hey tom, just another little response.  when i used the word paranoid, i used it, not like you are mentally sick.  no i used it like we did in the 60's when there was a knock at the door and we were smoking pot or something.  perhaps you aren't of the vintage that experience some of those awful things.  you what they say, if you can remember the 60's - you weren't there.  but i do remember some and i was there.  all i can say again is you guys, in my humble opinion ought to lighten up a bit.  i am glad you are now asking some questions instead of doing the equivilant  of yelling "fire" in a crowded theatre - or in this case a hospital.   i thnk it's good to ask ?'s first instead of coming out with witness lee and eastern religion accusations.  it's true, it is an open forum, but people will leave by the droves if they can't read things with encouragement and courteous conversation.  

my identity is not difficult. some have guessed me.  but i would like to stay anonymous presently to encourage others who do not want to or can't identify themselves to post.

Excellent comment affirming!  I come here for encouragement and maybe a few chuckles.  I have not been disappointed but I do tire of tirades.  It's obvious that many have been wounded but we need to find His grace as sufficient for all our need and eventually let go of the need to vent and blame and accuse.  Life/fellow man is not fair but "turn your eyes upon Jesus" and find that he is, emminently!  He is able to satisfy all your need.  Maybe believing that is beyond you, but it's not beyond Him!

...but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. Gal 2:20b

Tim

 
QUOTE:

     "It's obvious that many have been wounded but we need to find His grace as sufficient for all our need and eventually let go of the need to vent and blame and accuse.  Life/fellow man is not fair but "turn your eyes upon Jesus" and find that he is, emminently!  He is able to satisfy all your need.  Maybe believing that is beyond you, but it's not beyond Him!"
                               -- Tim Souther



     Amen, Brother Tim S.--  Well said!!!

al

Most of us agree that something was wrong with the Assembly, so we left.

However, we take with us much baggage.

We still tend to use clichés and loaded language when we speak of spiritual things.

We still tend to use a mystical approach to God's word and think spiritual truth is obtained through an existential, unexplainable higher knowledge instead of learned objectively (in the same manner we learn about physics or cake decorating).

We still tend to allegorize Bible passages looking for hidden meanings instead of giving deference to the different genres of the Bible.

Challenging this kind of practice is just as important as challenging where the Assembly money goes on Sunday morning.

In the book “Writing to Learn” by William Zinsser, the author attempts to answer the age old question, “Why Can’t Johnny Write?”  The answer is “Johnny can’t write because Johnny was never taught to reason.”  This doesn’t mean that Johnny is dumb.  It means that Johnny never learned to question the meaning of his own words and ask whether or not it has anything to do with the argument at hand.  He writes from his gut, stringing together phrases he has picked up along the way.  He never questions, “What will my audience understand this to mean?”

Asking whether or not “reckoning faith” is a special kind of faith or simply a redundant phrase is a legitimate question.  One is not going on a tirade for asking it.  Questioning whether or not we receive spiritual knowledge through objective means or through a special dispensation of a divine, subjective, mechanism is a very basic question that impacts how we read our Bibles.

Please don’t look for ill will where there isn’t any.  Please don’t say, “Just give me Jesus” when someone simply makes a query or questions what someone means by what he wrote.  I have sat through too many seminars saying “Amen” every 20 seconds to whatever lofty phrase was strewn before me.  I don’t want to go back to a world where only the emotional heart is engaged, but not the reasoning brain.

Dear Ones,

     The ability to reason, or "reckon" is a gift from God, and he expects us to exercise it as fully as we are able.  Of course, that ability varies from person to person, but he doesn't hold me to your standard or you to mine.  He just wants us to wholeheartedly apply his gifts to the task at hand.

     It is because of our varied capacities to think and draw conclusions that he has given us his Holy Spirit.  He doesn't want us just to say, "Well, i've got Jesus," and abandon rational thought.  But, if we do not trust in the Lord with all our hearts, and we lean wholly instead upon our own understanding, then we quite literally haven't got a prayer.

My good Friends! :)
  I'm sorry that I post and seem to stir up a great controversy and then am silent, but I'm usually travelling during the week (unfortunately not to Cozumel), and am unable to continue, or clarify the discussion.
  In the Assembly honest discussion was sometimes attacked as "divisive, of the Devil, mean spirited, et al."  When ever issues were raised re. teaching and practices one was accused of "railing"; in other words, attacking the person/ministry.
   Dealing with recovery issues concerning abusive groups is very similar to dealing with recovery issues concerning a drug addict (see "The Subtle Power Of Spiritual Abuse" by David Johnson and Jeff Van Vonderan--- Pulished by Bethany House).  It is similar in that honesty is the difference between life and death!  Being candid is not being mean, it is the flip side of the coin of which is also found love.  Indifference to truth is not forgiveness, it is a careless disregard for the recovery of individuals who have been lying to themselves for years!
   It is also true that the addict will get angry when you try to confront them honestly regarding their behavior and attitudes.  It takes patience and real love to not take the angry response personally, but to continue to try and get the addict to a place of honesty.
   The recovering Assembly member will sometimes use all the defensive mechanisms at their disposal to prevent the honest evaluation of their involvement.  The reason for this is obvious.     It is very painful to admit that:
   1.) I was deceived about a great many things.
   2.) I was emotionally dependant on the group.
   3.) I willinginly gave up my liberty in Christ.
   4.) I contributed to an abusive system.

   To consider these above things is not "a heavy handed approach" but the only road to true healing and as such a very loving approach.
   In recovery the counselor is sometimes attacked as being "cruel" for insisting that the counselee be honest.  
    Jesus has been knocking at the door of the Assembly for many long years seeking to enter into communion with those inside.  Notice the list of things the church of Laodicea was required to avail themselves of to achieve the blessing of God.  The list shows that the church considered that their condition was good, while the Lord said they were in desperate need of an honest assesment of their condition.  He ends his entreaty, "Whom I love, I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent."
   I have the greatest love and concern for my dear brethren who are coming out of the Assembly and pray earnestly for God's richest blessing for them.  If we try to establish a "no-talk-rule" where we never confront certain issues we are not doing our good friends any favors.
   To say that only God can address these things is an easy way for us to escape our responsibility to love our brother.  We are to follow the example of our Lord by speaking the truth in love.  We may be upbraided for pointing out errors, but unlike the Assembly, it is not to attack the individual person and shame them, but that through honest assesment we can come to experience His wonderful grace!
                         May God bless us Good! :)   Mark

     Folks, i may have muddied up the waters here, so let me set the record straight regarding my position:

     i have never and will never endorse a "no talk" concept.  Everyone who loves the Lord or seeks him is invited to post here, and to speak freely.  If anything i have posted has led you to believe otherwise, i apologize for being unclear or insensitive.  Please, post here without fear.

     i am not a teacher.  My posts are from my heart, and i pray before, during and after posting that the Lord is being served, and his people being blessed by this BB.  This kind of praying is not a magic talisman that makes whatever i say all right-- it is my earnest seeking to post what i should and not post what i should not.  Being yet fallible, i am not beyond posting in error, in spite of all my praying.  But i can tell you that when i am writing for the BB and a doubt enters my mind regarding my words or my motive in writing them, and that doubt continues in spite of my increased praying, i delete the whole thing and either start over or simply don't post.

     There are teachers who post here.  i have personally criticized Mark Campbell and Tom Maddux for what i called a "heavy handed" approach in their responses to the posts of others.  But i have NOT criticized their teachings.  There is NOTHING either of these brothers could say to me that i would not listen closely to, whether or not it was something i wanted to hear.  Tom and Mark are godly and good-hearted men who have all our best interests in mind when they post here.  If there is one of the three of us who is egocentric it is i, not either of them.
     For the record, i apologize for having cast any doubt upon either of these brothers' ministry.  That was not and is not my intent.  Pay close attention to what they tell us.  It has cost them a lot to be where they are today, and they speak to us as ministers of God.

Dear Al,
  I think everyone one can tell that you speak from your heart and that is very valuable indeed.  These blasted e-mail communications can be so cumbersome sometimes and we can easily develop misunderstandings.
  Thank you so much for your kind words, but calling me a teacher is a bit much.  I recently listened to a tape of the last time I spoke at the Assembly and the Lord spoke to me saying, "you are not a public speaker!" ;)  I can agree with you re. Tom though, as he does have the ability to clearly express himself.
   I have always felt that the BB should be more like sitting around the campfire and just jawing.  I would invite those who may think that their opinion is not polished enough to join in and try a few lines.  It is good therapy to put your feeling into thought and we can help one another understand our Christian life a little better.
   I apologize for sounding like some kind of know-it-all, as everyone knows I'm just a Christian truck driver who was in the Assembly for 20 years.  We all have valuable insight to share here, regardless of our station in life, as God has gifted each in His church, and as such we are all necessary; you know, a foot, hand etc. (hopefully I will never act too much like the rear end.) ;D
               God bless his people,   Mark
     
 

     We give clear communication our best shot, but we know there will be misunderstandings.  You try your hardest to express yourself lucidly, and i strain to grasp your meaning correctly, but, alas...  Our backgrounds and experiences differ, as do our IQs and vocabularies (you say po-TAY-toe, and i say po-TAH-toe...).  But you pray in your sending, and i pray in my receiving, and we both trust in God, who giveth the increase.

     We try to be scriptural in our assessments:  there is no mention in the bible of truck drivers, so Mark Campbell couldn't possibly be a teacher.  But what about Ezekiel's vision of a wheel turning within a wheel?  Doesn't that sound like a truck tire and the rim inside it?  So then maybe that means...

     Seriously, i didn't say Mark is or isn't a teacher.  What i said is that there are teachers posting here, and that i would pay serious attention to anything Mark said to me.
     Mark thinks he isn't a teacher because he doesn't like  the way he speaks publicly.  Personally, i have never heard ANY of the authors of the bible speak, but i have learned from EVERY one of them through their written teachings.  So i can't discredit the BB as a venue for teaching.  i think this BB can be as helpful as a lot of the books on the market, and a good bit moreso than some of them.

     Keep on reading, and feel free to jump in with a question or a comment, short or long.

...and keep looking UP!
bro. al

Tom,

     Ed has an excellent thought, there.  (He just gave us what could only be called a "Teune-up!)

     But maybe instead of exerpting from your notes, you could exerpt quotes from George's ministry as printed in the T&T, followed by exposition of (1.) George's stated error, and (2.) Your exposition of the truth of the matter.
     That way, there will be no question as to whether your notes correctly reflect George's statements.  All quotes of his in the T&T are verbatim from taped ministry.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Saints,

     What do you think?  Tom Maddux is eminently qualified to address GG's erroneous teachings.  He is a gifted teacher and he is honest.  If he deems himself NOT qualified to address a matter, he will tell us so.
     What did George say that is weighing heavily on you, about which you would appreciate some clarity?

     Speaking of clarity, let me make this clear:  i am NOT volunteering Tom's services!  i have ASKED him to consider the proposition stated above.  It would be very demanding in time and effort, and, unlike some we shan't name, Brother Tom holds down a full time job, as well as being a family man and active in his church.  But he also loves the Lord, and cares for his people, and would be my #1 pick on this BB to perform such a work.

bro. al

I for one, am for it.  :D
Thanks

"But Lord, what about this man?" Jn 20:20b "What is that to you? You follow Me." Jn 20:22b

THE PURPOSE OF THIS POST: Is NOT to tell anyone what to think or what to do [ to continue in fellowship in one of the assemblies or to leave] .  It is simply to point to the ONE WHO CAN - JESUS CHRIST.

I am no longer a part of the FULLERTON fellowship, although I will from time to time attend a meeting.  Will I ever return - as in the sense - "committed to that place of fellowship", I don't know.

My purpose in posting this is to not give reasons, arguements, justifications, etc. for any of my actions.  It is merely to give a inward look into the heart of one who simply wants to follow the call of his Master.  It is my call and no others.

1)  A HEART'S REACTION:  Upon reading the initial posts, my heart was saddened, my pride crushed.  Looking back, I see how my hands reached out to try to take control.  Isn't that a laugh.  :D  There were numerous reasons for me to continue on in Fullerton.  Was I walking with the Lord.  Absolutely.  Was my heart yeilded to Him.  Absolutely.  Was He speaking to me.  Absolutely.

2)  HIS call to Me: II Cor 3:15-18.  A turned heart - a removed veil.  I simply turned my heart and asked HIM what HE wanted for me and my wife Linda.  I stood upon those verses.  They have been my promise for clear direction [ for  me ].

3)  A Six Week Journey:  Everyday has been new.  Everyday I have been seeing Christ in new ways.  Passage upon passage from God's word has strengthend, encouraged, convicted me and brought great comfort to my soul.  I feel as if I have launched out into a new a wonderful journey.  I have no idea of the destination nor the pathway but I know He is over all.  I know HE indwells me.  I know I am in HIM.  What more could I ask for.  It is a journey of fellowship with my Lord.  

4)  A wonderful Separation:  What is so wonderful about this journey is that I sense day be day that He is separating me from that which I had my hands upon unto Himself.  I feel so disconnected to that which seemed so important just weeks ago [ I speak in a subjective sense ].
None of this happened through any self effort.  It is his work.  It is His separation.  See Gal 1, Rom 6.
I no longer have to control or be concerned of the outcome of Fulleron ::).  If I do return, it will be in complete liberty.

5)  To the abused, down trodden and anyone within the assemblies or without.  If what was happened still drives you [ controls you ],  God can and wants to get separation in our lives.  I can not and will not tell anyone what to specifically do.  But I will venture to say this.  There is available for all - COMPLETE FREEDOM. Freedom from the pain and freedom from the past
It is not in the selfer's prayer, not in the wheel and the line, nor any other tool that one may take and methodize.
It is not outside of you.  You need not go anywhere to find it.  It is dwelling deep within you inward parts "Rom 10:6-13."
We all missed so much because we thought we could achieve things through self-effort.  It is ALL His work.  He has seperated us to Himself and only the Holy Spirit can bring us to the subjective knowledge of it.  The wonderful thing is that He delights to do this.  Romans 3-5 all speak of what He has done.  It is all ours by new birth. Grace, grace, grace, grace,  grace.

Concluding thought.  Wherever your place of fellowship, wherever you are with the Saviour - you are His - and we are brethern.  I wish you all the best.  My prayer for all of us is that in the final analysis may we know "fellowship with Him."  God bless each and everyone of you as you seek to know Him and follow Him.


P.S
   There are 2 brothers from Hong Kong [ I believe ].  There will some meetings in Fullerton this week with them.  I will attend [casual observor].  This is a learning exercise.  
I have gone to another place on Sundays.  Next week I will visit a couple of their other meetings.  Please pray for me.  Is this the next stop on the journey?  Last Sunday did bless my heart.

Lord bless

Not to detract from either Al's or (just previous to this) Gary's excellent posts but actually, Al, it would be a "Teun-e up.  ;)
Right Ed & Kathy?

(PS - No time right now, but I hope to comment on Gary's post later, which contains some excellent insights.)