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He who is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at George Geftakys.

John 8:7  But as they continued to ask Him, He lifted Himself up and said to them, He who is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at her.

Mat 7:2  For with whatever judgment you judge, you shall be judged; and with whatever measure you measure out, it shall be measured to you again.

John 16:2  They shall put you out of the synagogue. But an hour is coming that everyone who kills you will think that he bears God service.

1 Peter 3:9-10  Never give back evil for evil, or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary, giving blessing, knowing that you are called to this so that you might inherit blessing. For he that wants to love life and to see good days, let him restrain his tongue from evil, and his lips from speaking guile.

Dear graceTRUTH:

Please inform me as to who it was that advocated killing Tim/George Geftakys. The stones here weren't going to hurt her feelings or expose her as unfit to be a leader/preacher (a very necessary thing in order to PROTECT the innocent). No, the stones were going to end her life.

Hath no man condemned thee...No Lord. Neither do I condemn thee(grace). Go and sin no more(truth).

I don't believe that grace and truth are the reconciling of opposites, but 2 sides of the same coin.

The verses you quote are out of context and become like the droning of a mantra-a sloppy cliche.

Jam 1:26  If anyone thinks to be religious among you, yet does not bridle his tongue, but deceives his own heart, this one's religion is vain.

1Pe 2:19  For this is a grace, if for conscience toward God anyone endures grief, suffering wrongfully.
1Pe 2:20  For what glory is it if you patiently endure while sinning and being buffeted? But if you suffer while doing good, and patiently endure, this is a grace from God.
1Pe 2:21  For you were not called to this? For Christ also suffered on our behalf, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps,
1Pe 2:22  He who did no sin, nor was guile found in His mouth,
1Pe 2:23  who when He was reviled did not revile in return. When He suffered, He did not threaten, but gave Himself up to Him who judges righteously.

Dear gracetruth,
Here are some verses that really apply to the situation:

 I Tim.3:2-5  "An overseer, then must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, RESPECTABLE, HOSPITABLE, able to teach, not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but GENTLE, UNCONTENTIOUS, FREE FROM THE LOVE OF MONEY.  HE MUST BE ONE WHO MANAGES HIS OWN HOUSEHOLD WELL, KEEPING HIS CHILDREN UNDER CONTROL WITH ALL DIGNITY (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?).

II Cor. 4: 2 "but we have RENOUNCED THE THINGS HIDDEN BECAUSE OF SHAME, NOT WALKING IN CRAFTINESS OR ADULTERATING THE WORD OF GOD, but by the manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God."

Tit. 1: 6-8 "namely, if any man be ABOVE REPROACH, the husband of one wife, having CHILDREN who believe, NOT ACCUSED OF DISSIPATION OR REBELLION. For the overseer MUST BE ABOVE REPROACH AS GOD'S STEWARD, NOT SELF-WILLED, NOT QUICK-TEMPERED, not addicted to wine, NOT PUGNACIOUS, NOT FOND OF SORDID GAIN, BUT HOSPITABLE, LOVING WHAT IS GOOD, sensible, JUST, devout, SELF-CONTROLLED...

Tit. 1: 13...For this cause REPROVE THEM SEVERELY that they may be sound in the faith...vs. 16 They profess to know God, BUT BY THEIR DEEDS THEY DENY HIM BEING DETESTABLE AND DISOBEDIENT, AND WORTHLESS FOR ANY GOOD DEED."

Gracetruth, at the very least have the courage of your convictions to reveal who you are while you beat us all over the head with your bible. If you want to be an effective part of this discussion then bring your facts and your ideas to this forum in the open. Hiding behind the Word of God is not helpful. The Word is powerful and can be a tool of deliverance. The people on this board probably know the bible as well or better than you - let us hear your insight from your vantage point.
Thank you,
Pat

Thanks, Pat, for posting those verses that really do apply for 'gracetruth', whoever they are.  Phill and I are out of the Annandale assembly because no one in leadership there is willing to face the truth about George, his life and ministry.  Including the fact that he is an evil man who fleeced God's people.  Evil according to the Oxford dictionary is"one who causes harm". It fits.
Becky Wieser
Annandale, VA

George: "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone at me"

Two stones fly by.

George: Tim!!  Dave!!! What do you think you're doing??!!

Dear Gracetruth (Rod Zach?)

Your use of Bible verses is stunning.

Jesus said:

Rev3:20  But I have against thee that thou permittest the woman Jezebel, (George and Betty, George got the service and Betty taught the women to keep quiet) she who calls herself prophetess, and she teaches and leads astray my servants to commit fornication and eat of idol sacrifices.  21  And I gave her time that she should repent, and she will not repent of her fornication.  22  Behold, I cast her into a bed, and those that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her works,  23  and her children will I kill with death; and all the assemblies shall know that *I* am he that searches [the] reins and [the] hearts; and I will give to you each according to your works.

The saints in Thyatira should say, according to gracetruth:

Lord, none of us are without sin, so we must allow Jezebel to teach.  We dare not go against your word, by casting a stone.
Lord, who are we to judge?  We aren't going to judge Jezebel, because if we do, you will judge us even harsher
Lord, Lord, we don't want to put her out of the church, because then we would look like we thought we were serving you, and of course we might be decieved.

Lord, Lord, we don't want to stand against her evil deeds, we only want to be a blessing.

Lord, Lord, we don't want to act, we want to take the high road and let You be the judge.

This is what Thyatira did, and this is what Assembly folk do.  The results should be the same in both cases.

gracetruth, your missuse of the Bible is quite advanced,  you should be able to offend quite a few little ones.  The ability to hold your breath will not help, because it would be BETTER for you to swim with a millstone than the judgement that will come to you and your master.

Brent Tr0ckman  (my real name)

I am definitely not perfect, and I have sinned before, but I certainly will not defend an evil man like George Geftakys.  Even Jesus called out the pharisees and told them exactly what they were like.

Verne!  Well said!!
  Joe! ;D  Laugh out loud and fall down funny ;D ;D
   It is almost as if "Gracetruth" is playing devils advocate here as his/her post's seem to be a cariacture of pre GG excommunication Assembly days!  Does anyone really still think this way?! ???
  I would also like to invite "Gracetruth" to further explain how we are to forgive someone who has sinned against God's people in such a horrendous way and yet remain adamantly unrepentant??!!  Under such criteria we should infer that ,"let us sin that grace might abound" is the attitude to adopt with GG.
  Others have answered very well here, but I had to add my 2 cents here as "Gracetruth's" posting is startling in it's lack of discernment, and as Verne suggests, a clear example of Assembly mindset. :o
          God Bless,  Mark

I also posted this on the same named thread under "My Work is Just Beginning" started by the same (anonymous) poster.
Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness*, but shall have the light of life. (Jn 8:12)

*darkness - secrecy, anonymity (as in anonymous posting), the way George and the "work" operated for years and years (read "characteristics of workers").

Mr. Geftakys is not one of the sheep caught in "adultery".  He is a Pharisee/Sadducee/Scribe/etc. caught practicing wickedness and abusing many using his supposed God given authority as "God's Servant/Apostle".   Consider Jesus' extremely severe condemnation of such in Matthew 23.  The whole point in this is to provide means, which have been for decades, denied to those in the "assemblies" to escape and be able to enter into true liberty and grace.  (Try reading The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse by Johnson & VanVonderan.)  To hide abuse of power is to participate in the sin.  This issue w/GG has been addressed in a scriptural way:

1. Mt 18:15 - Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. (This was done repeatedly by many over the years. George would not hear it!)

2. v. 16  But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. (This was done.  Again, George would not repent!)

3. v. 17a - And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: (This was done. Once again, George refuses to repent.)

So, "gracetruth", what is left?  :-\  :'(

4. v. 17b - but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

  I don't know Verne, but if he/she/it isn't joking it is difficult to accept how such an individual can really exist in this post GG excommunication age?  If it is for real then Brent is correct and there is now no doubt that GG is a full blown cult leader these days!  Jokes in the past re. koolaid will have to make a come back!
                                               God Bless,  Mark

George: "OK, now that Tim and Dave have left, let
him that is without sin amongst you cast the first stone
at me"

George jumps aside as a boulder rolls by.

George: "Betty! I thought I told you stay home!"

Verne/Mark/Joe,
Thanks for the humor.  If gt is "pulling our leg(s)", he has certainly succeded in getting a rise out of us.  ::) ;D
Hopefully he/she has not been disappointed!  ;)

I didn't want to start another new topic.  I am becoming a "conservative" poster, so I wanted to put this idea down in an old thread, in order to get a years' worth of perspective on the whole thing.

Question:

What is the difference between persecution and rebuke?  I am asking this question in the Biblical sense,  and am using Biblical words and hopefully understanding their meaning.

From Strong's

1377 dioko {dee-o'-ko}
a prolonged (and causative) form of a primary verb dio (to flee;
cf the base of 1169 and 1249); TDNT - 2:229,177; v
AV - persecute 28, follow after 6, follow 4,
suffer persecution 3, misc 3; 44
1) to make to run or flee, put to flight, drive away
2) to run swiftly in order to catch a person or thing, to run after
2a) to press on: figuratively of one who in a race runs
swiftly to reach the goal
2b) to pursue (in a hostile manner)
3) in any way whatever to harass, trouble, molest one
3a) to persecute
3b) to be mistreated, suffer persecution on account of something
4) without the idea of hostility, to run after, follow after: someone
5) metaph., to pursue
5a) to seek after eagerly, earnestly endeavour to acquire

and....

1651 elegcho {el-eng'-kho}
of uncertain affinity; TDNT - 2:473,221; v
AV - reprove 6, rebuke 5, convince 4, tell (one's) fault 1,
convict 1; 17
1) to convict, refute, confute
1a) generally with a suggestion of shame of the person convicted
1b) by conviction to bring to the light, to expose
2) to find fault with, correct
2a) by word
2a1) to reprehend severely, chide, admonish, reprove
2a2) to call to account, show one his fault, demand an explanation
2b) by deed
2b1) to chasten, to punish

It has been suggested that this forum constitutes persecution of Christians.  I maintain that there is a marked difference between persecution and rebuke.  What we have done here, in addition to speaking openly about things we deem important, is to call to account, show fault and demand explanations for certain things done by certain people in the Assembly.  Biblically, by definition, this falls under the category of rebuke.  However, if indeed there has been persecution, I would like to have someone point it out to me, so that I may avoid that type of thing.

Does anyone have any ideas about this?

Brent

Just a layman's perspective for what it is worth.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=persecution

persecution

The first great persecution for religious opinion of which we have any record was that which broke out against the worshippers of God among the Jews in the days of Ahab, when that king, at the instigation of his wife Jezebel, "a woman in whom, with the reckless and licentious habits of an Oriental queen, were united the fiercest and sternest qualities inherent in the old Semitic race", sought in the most relentless manner to extirpate the worship of Jehovah and substitute in its place the worship of Ashtoreth and Baal. Ahab's example in this respect was followed by Manasseh, who "shed innocent blood very much, till he had filled Jerusalem from one end to another" (2 Kings 21:16; comp. 24:4). In all ages, in one form or another, the people of God have had to suffer persecution. In its earliest history the Christian church passed through many bloody persecutions. Of subsequent centuries in our own and in other lands the same sad record may be made. Christians are forbidden to seek the propagation of the gospel by force (Matt. 7:1; Luke 9:54-56; Rom. 14:4; James 4:11, 12). The words of Ps. 7:13, "He ordaineth his arrows against the persecutors," ought rather to be, as in the Revised Version, "He maketh his arrows fiery [shafts]."

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=rebuke

rebuke

n : an expression of criticism and censure; "he had to take the rebuke with a smile on his face" [syn: reproof, reproval, reprehension, reprimand] v : censure severely or angrily; "The mother scolded the child for entering the stranger's car"; "The deputy ragged the Prime Minister"; "The customer dressed down the waiter for bringing cold soup"; "check" is archaic [syn: check, rag, reproof, lecture, reprimand, jaw, dress down, scold, chide, berate, bawl out, remonstrate, chew out, chew up, have words, lambaste, lambast]

In my opinion

Persecution is like a person who is trying to wipe out the opponent because they don't like what they say or do.

Rebuke is to strongly oppose verbally what others are doing which is objectionable to them.

My idea about this is GG was'nt or can't even be compared to this woman taken in Adultry. He was a Leader Of a few thousand people teaching another Gospel....Of which the Bible says let him be accursed...Dont forget David knocked Golith out with a smooth pebble...For taunting the Armys of the Living God...check the word Martyr in the dictionary.

I have a few ideas about this.  First, who suggested that this forum constitutes persecution of Christians?  It doesn't come close to that.
Identifying wrong behavior is not throwing rocks.  Sharing bad assembly experiences is not necessarily judging others.  I just learned that someone preached to the remaining flock here last spring "if you had your eyes fixed on Jesus you wouldn't have all these questions."  Am I persecuting that brother if I express my opinion here that this is bad preaching?  Because I think you can keep your eyes on the Lord and still ask 'where does that money in the box go?', or 'just how long ago did George's actions disqualify himself from any position of authority in the church?'...
After years of being too quiet when I should have spoken up, I find a forum like this one very helpful.  I've been rebuked and corrected by it a few times, too.
with only an 11 months perspective,
Becky

Two people, recently, have suggested that what we are doing here is persecuting Christians, namely those who used to be Leading Brothers in the Geftakys Assembly.  The people suggesting that we are persecutors seem to be far more Anti-website than Pro-George, although the do seem very complimentary towards all Assembly leaders.  

Personally, I think it is intellectually dishonest to conclude that this forum is persecution.  It is full of rebuke, truth-telling, anger, bitterness, joy, freedom, "lightbulb moments," and is a tremendous help to many who need to put the pieces together and figure out what happened the last 20 years of their lives.

Statistically, as far as my email goes, the critics amount to less than 100 emails out of about 10,000.  I am not sure what Steve is getting, but i would venture a guess that there are far more "Thank you's" in his mailbox than  "May God Judge you's!"

I merely bring up the topic because my phone has been ringing off the hook lately with people in various stages of crisis and flux, a year after the collapse.  My intention has never, ever been to persecute.  It has always been my intention to rebuke, and demand an explanation and accounting for hundreds of ruined lives, and millions of dollars.

Perhaps 30 years of deception, adultery, arrogance, abuse, false teaching and good old-fashioned pocket lining in the name of God really isn't that bad?  Let's just "fergive" and pretend it didn't happen and that we were all involved in a simple testimony to Jesus...... :-\

Brent

re: does this forum constitute persecution?

I've been doing some reading.  In my reading I found that George, when challenged by S.Iron's son, labeled the offending behavior as immorality.  Calling this forum persecution is a similar stretch - and boy you've got to stretch!

The assembly of gg is notorious for this kind of redefining or labeling of behavior.  Freedom of speech for example - how would one define that in the g-regieme?  
a: what pleased the big G of course would be freely spoken.  I read a lot of the Gulag for some research this summer on Russia and the thousands that were hauled away, 'disappeared' and sent off to Siberia.  It is not at all unlike what happened in the assembly when people were accused, interrogated and forced to 'confess' their 'sin'
What we need now is to define each biblical concept again if we want healthy thinking.  Who'se up for that?  Another question - how do you know you 'hear the Lord's voice' now? and not just review your gg philosophy each time you read the bible?  Is it possible not to do this to some extent?  G's was a special brand of Christianity.  
delila

Re-defining biblical concepts is one of the best things an ex-geftakysite can do!  As Tom pointed out on another thread, there are some things that we don't need to re-define, like the Diety of Christ, or the Virgin Birth.

However, there are plenty of other things that we were totally, hopelessly mixed up about.  Several of these, which are relevant to our topic, are gossip, criticism, loyalty, "keeping" one's committements, and the ideas of authority and submission.

I wrote a paper that touched on some of this called,  The Code of Silence.  As good as it is ::) ::), it barely touches on these topics, and wholly ignores GG's concepts of Church Government, which are really bad.

The vast majority of people are not the least bit confused about the difference between rebuke, and exposing false teaching, and persecution.

I just want to leave the door open in the event that we really have persecuted anyone.  If that is the case, I want to publicly confess it, and do what I can to make restitution.  That is a healthy thing.  Being wrong in a public way requires a public apology----at least that's the way I see it.

Brent

Brent I have to say I agree with your last post.(BTW who is Steve) If I've persecuted anyone in anyway I'd sure like to know! Can't the former Lb's or Leaders speak for themselves..Reprove, rebuke, exort with all longsuffeing and doctrine..But I think its a Classic case of the WOLF guarding the Henhouse....Were told to Contend earnestly for the FAITH....In all fairness some corney jokes have been told...LOL A Merry Heart is Good Medicine...Alot of people have called a Spade a Spade and upset the Apple Cart!!!

Nothing like opening a bible and asking God to teach you.
Investing  5% of the weekly 20 hrs. of your life that you spent attending assembly meetings tainted with geftakys doctrine will clear up a lot. 60 minutes of Gods perspective is a lot more encouraginging than a lifetime of assembly seminars.

Persecution? No. ( no ones been burnt at the stake or fed to wild beasts
Rebuke? Yes, ( the exposing of false doctrine and practices to bring those in bondage to the full freedom that is found in Jesus Christ)

Hi Everyone!
  Thanks Brent for the brain expanding question re. are we persecutors or rebukers here.
   As I read the TNDT definitions of the two words I noticed that each word had several different nuances which depended on the context of their usage.  This tells me that context is very important regarding understanding the actual meaning of the words.
  As an example let's say that I was "rebuked" by a JW for declaring that Jesus is God:  Christians would recognize that the JW was wrong for rebuking because his forceful protestation of my position was not based in truth.  The action of rebuking can be done truthfully or in error.
  Let's say, in another hypothetical situation, I observe a man smack a woman and take her purse and I pursue the man in an attempt to bring him to justice:  According to Brent's theological dictionary that could be a persecution.
  Let's bring both of these examples to bear on this BB and the Assembly and to the real question which is: does God approve of our behavior and attitudes or does He approve of the critics that Brent mentioned?
   God approves of the truth spoken in love, and of course does not approve of lies.  Are we telling the truth about what happened to us in the Assembly or are we making it up?  Did all the women GG has his way with just imagine that this happened?  Are the former leaders not getting a fair shake when we ask them to renounce their allegiance to a system that God has exposed and judged as evil?
   Claiming that you are persecuted is a means of turning the tables from facing questions that you would rather not answer and charging the one asking the question with a wrong motive for asking.  It is a means of avoiding personal responsibility by pointing the finger at the one who is asking a difficult question.
    I receive about once a month another video of the Perry Mason TV show where Perry tries to get to the truth.  Perry has a great skill in "persuing" individuals to get to the truth.  As we look at the possible guilty parties as the camera scans the courtroom Sindy and I try to guess who the real murderer is.  The guilty person is very skilled at hiding their guilt and Perry has to doggedly pursue each lead in an attempt to defend his client and come to the truth in the matter so that justice can be done.
  There is truth to be persued as well in this ongoing saga of the Assembly and I feel like we here on the BB are defending many, like Perry's clients, who have been falsely accused and that the only way to clear our client's name is to discover who the guilty party really is.
   No doubt the guilty one does not want the truth to come out and is content to see the innocent party go to the chair.  The guilty one also will actively attempt to point to others, if the searching light of truth starts to come his/her way, in an attempt to spare his/her own sorry posterior.
  To the guilty Perry is a persecutor, but re. the innocent he is a defender of the truth, and this is always the key in achieving justice.  Perry never does a plea bargain because he knows that his clients are not guilty.  I love it because justice always wins out! (no, I do not get a percentage from Columbia house for the above mention of Perry ;))  We as Christians understand that justice will also always win out and so we need not fret that the guilty will escape.
   I know I took the long way to just say whatever you might think is being done here it is an attempt to honestly look at our Assembly past, and deal with those still not willing to do so.  If there are those who feel they, or the Assembly, is not getting a fair hearing here it is up to them to point out exactly where we have it wrong,  To just level the blanket charge that this BB "persecutes" without explaining how it does so is very clearly an attempt to avoid honestly answering the questions raised.
                                   God Bless,  Mark C.
   

The Steve I am referring to is Steve Irons.  He and Margaret have been managing the website for longer than I did now.  They have done a fantastic job, and the site has grown to be far more than it used to be.  It is much more balanced and substantive now, and gives more answers and encouragement than it does rebuke, which is as it should be.  However, there is still a battle being fought, and each of us has our unique contribution to make, one in this manner, another in that.

My experience has been that when the cries of outrage grow the most shrill, there is something great about to take place.  Borrowing the yellow terror alerts from our Dept. of Homeland Security, I would say that we are at a yellow level of outrage right now.  We have been up to orange, even red before, but currently we are at yellow.

It's funny, when I was in the Assembly, we always had enemies.  It was a local pastor, or Enroth, or Steve Irons, Social Services or someone else, but we always had enemies.  We imagined that people were out to get us, even though they paid us little or no attention.

It is a common thing for people emeshed in the cult-like sort of thing that The Assembly was/is to have a persecution complex.  The imagine that the cause they are involved in is Holy and of the utmost importance.  When others point out,  "That's not a spaceship, that's a cardboard box you painted white and wrote NASA on,"  they take this as persecution, because they can't see how silly it all is.  I was like that....totally.

I remember once, a person attended one of our meetings, when David G. went on and on for about 2 hours Sunday afternoon.  It was horribly, terribly boring!  :P

This person said,  "He suffers from short-person syndrome."  It was true, David was classic in this regard, but instead of saying, "Yeah, he kinda does...."  I believed that this person, who was from an evangelical church in another city, was persecuting us, because she was convicted by the message David preached.  Nothing could be further from the truth, but at the time it was totally true to me!

Brent

As soon as this posted I realized it was S.Irons you were talking about.Someone who has been very up-front about his involvement and "reflections' was an amazing discovery for me a few months ago it is much appreciated...I personally hav'ent thanked  anyone .So I'll Thank-You now Brent...This is a Valient Work your doing...BYW is your wife the former Suzi Que?? If she is I think I met her a few times at the beach ..not sure??

On 1st January, 2004 someone emailed me this comment about the BB :
"I'm so happy to have access there.  It is such a blessing!"

The Lord Jesus rebuked the leaders of His time, and they did not like it. They made every attempt to 'trip Him up' and stop Him. He used some pretty strong language too e.g. serpents, brood of vipers, hypocrites, blind guides, fools and blind men etc. (read Matthew 23). He addressed His rebuke to ALL the leaders. He did not make disclaimers by saying, "except for Nicodemus", or "except for Joseph of Arimathea".

Persecution is what happened to Stephen and the apostle Paul in the book of Acts. The leaders did not like the message so they stoned the messenger.

Lord bless,
Marcia

“There is a crack, a crack in everything.  That’s how the light gets is.  That’s how the
light gets in...” -- Leonard Cohen (celebrated Canadian Poet)

“There’s a call comes ringing... Send the Light, send the light” - a hymn that plays yet
in my head

“If the light that is in you be darkness, how great is that darkness” - a bible verse
branded to my memory

“Can somebody dim the light?  Can’t you see we like it dark here?” - paraphrase from
angry shepherds as they are exposed.

   I am amazed once again at the irony, once again, as thick and rotten as blue
cheese.  I read once again that it was Tim, son of ‘Voldemort’ (He who must not be
named) who unwittingly encouraged Brent T. to seek the Lord’s truth and  love,
thereby becoming liberated from the ‘mind of GG’to see with the mind of Christ.
And if I accept this, I have to accept that there is a mind of Christ!   So I am
dumbfounded at my own tears, my own desire to so want to believe this.  I want to
believe that there is a God who honored my prayer when I was fifteen years old,
making that bargain with God: “Show me a people who love you and serve you the
way you want to be served and I will give you my life.”  I had concluded that in
paying this, I make a pact with the devil instead.  And I read Brent’s ‘book’ and I
wonder if, after all these years, God really could be answering my prayer.  And that’s
hard to accept.  That’s hard to believe because it scares me to death.
   It is better to believe nothing.  Yesterday I spent hours with my kids, just
playing with them, watching them, scribbling in my notebook and asking myself what
it is that I really believe.  There are some things I know that I believe.  I believe in
eating well, drinking good quality water, examining one’s principles, personal
autonomy, boundaries, watching my children sleep, garlic, dancing with my children,
hard work, artistic outlets, doing one’s own home repairs, gardening, composting,
exercise, writing as therapy.  I believe in freedom of thought, freedom of faith,
throwing out baby with bath water if baby is demonic.  I believe in giving everyone a
voice, learning from others, finger-painting.  I believe in thinking outside the box,
throwing away moldy things, recycling.  I used to believe in the bible.  And once
again I have to admit to myself, I want to believe in God.  But why?
   God would be an absolute, like loving your kids and the need for sleep.  I had
two hours sleep last night.  The person of God in Jesus Christ: I’d like to dismiss that.
Still, I found comfort there once.  I remember too an experience I had when I was
living in Ottawa, an experience that even after I ‘left the Lord’ I could not and still
can not dismiss to this day.  I was living in an apartment building, laying in the top
bunk of a sister’s apartment.  I had been witnessing to two people with strong ties to
wicca and devil worship.  So I thought that’s why I got the visit.  It scares me even
now to think about what came, in the night to my bedroom.  My room mate was
sleeping in the lower bunk.  She didn’t notice.  But I was paralyzed with fear.
Couldn’t move any part of my body.  In my thoughts I clung to my defense: Jesus is
the Son of God.  Jesus is the Son of God.  I claim Jesus Christ as my defense.  Jesus is
the Son of God.  And slowly, whatever it was backed off and left me and I could
move again.  I wasn’t sleeping, as was so often the case in Ottawa, I was so tired that I
couldn’t sleep, my face oozing another cold sore, my throat sore like fire, my mind
unable to quit processing the duties of the next day and all the things I had to get
done.  And in the middle of that, in walks the devil.  So why do I mention that now?
Because what saved me, and I can’t deny what saved me from absolute paralyzing
fear - was Jesus the Son of God.  And I don’t care who reads this and calls me a total
crack up - IT IS TRUE.  And I know it’s true, as sure as I know my own name.  So
why is it relevant?  If I know the devil visited me and Christ saved me, then how is
Jesus Christ not true?  Lame line of logic?   Perhaps.  Perhaps not.
   We begin another year: 2004.  It was 1984 that I first believed I was giving my
life to God.  That’s a lot of years of confusion in between.  Seven years of honest
commitment and ‘death’ to self and abuse of others and myself and near death period.
And it is frightening to know what would happen if I just ‘gave God the reigns’ now.
I have two children to consider now.  I have to keep my head together.  I have to
know that I’m not playing the fool and putting them at risk.  I have an emerging sense
of self worth to consider, a confidence and dignity that is still in its infancy.  I don’t
think if I went to church again I’d be able to keep from crying either and that kind of
public display doesn’t appeal to me.  Also, I’m scared to death to get my bibles out of
storage in my grandmother’s garage.  I’m scared that if I read them I’ll believe and
lose myself, just when I was really beginning to like the person I’ve become.  I’m
scared of that too.  And frankly, I don’t trust myself to make a rational religious
choice.  I’m far too desperate, too emotional.  I’ve been far too stupid in the past.
   Excuses?  Perhaps.  Lame excuses? No.
   It is a tempting thought Brent, that we just lost our way.  That there is liberty
and sanity and abundant life in Christ.  That idea is almost irresistible.  And I’m
crying as I continue to type this at 6:24 AM with two hours sleep.  So I’m not going to
make a decision because I’m overtired and unable to make a decision, just to agonize
and cry and worry.  I was so happy before I heard about the assembly falling into ruin.
Then I was unexplainably heartbroken at the news of this ‘dream’ gone bad.  Now
I’m sick at the thought of Christianity actually having some value and truth to it.  And
I want to go back to living with the belief that it was all a sham - that all religion is
simply men trying to control others through the idea that they have a monopoly on
God.  Still, I don’t find control here on your website, only acceptance.  And yet, I
didn’t see control either when I first entered the assembly, just some very nice
(though odd) people who invited me to live with them and rescued me from a very
abusive home environment.  And quite frankly, I don’t need rescuing now.  For the
first time in my life I feel really free: no tantrum throwing husband, no haunting
memories of saints ‘standing for me’ - all that has lost its power over me.  I’m free.
Time heals, so does rigorous therapy.  So who needs Jesus now?  Yet I want to
believe and even that disgusts me.  
   My seventy-eight year old Grandma has told me a hundred times or more that
we don’t need church.  That we carry God in our hearts and ‘nobody know what that
mean - church - nobody know...” and she weeps.  A Roman Catholic woman, who by
the way also believes in fortune tellers and visits she has had from dead family
members and in looking up her dreams in a dream book - she believes we have God in
our hearts and nobody can know what that means.  
   I had a dream recently.  In it, she and I were out for a drive on a flood plain.
The low level crossing had been washed out so I parked my vehicle and we got out.
And we swam across the ice cold, clear water to the other side.  “The water is clear?
That mean good... muddy water mean death.” she told me, interpreting.  And we have
our trouble, she maintains, and we’ll get through it.  All will be well.  And I believe
that.  Does that appall you?  No scripture and verse and yet I believe that.  Getting
promises, now I take issue with that.  “The Lord gave me a promise for you sister...”
(in other words, sit back, shut up and listen.  I’m going to be God’s conduit for a
minute!).  No way I’m going back to that kind of living, having a bible verse shoved
down my throat as a pretext for conformity to the group.  That’s deception, and it’s
not even very good deception.  It’s lame.  It’s that lame sheep whose legs have been
broken by a ‘good shepherd’ and I’ll have none of that in my life again.  Not ever.
   So I’d better end this.  I can hear my son waking.  He’ll only sing for a while
longer and then his tune will change pretty quick.   In conclusion... I entertain the idea
that God may be touching me with His grace.  The idea too that He may never have
stopped touching me and this is just another step toward an inevitable and complete
understanding of who God is.  This may be just another crack... how the light gets in.
Or I may just be losing my nerve.  I leave the rest to God.

Delila

Delila:

I absolutely believe you in the re-telling of your story about the devil visiting you one night in your apartment.

My husband and I, too, had a similar experience of sleepless nights upon leaving the assembly.  There is a gamut of emotions as you circumnavigate these waters.  I was almost paralyzed for the first few months after leaving the assembly.  The website and this forum were in its' infant stages and all I could do was commisserate here with others who had been through similar experiences.  Reading and posting, reading and posting.  It was my therapy. It gave legitimacy to my emotions and experiences........I wasn't crazy!  Others felt the same way I did, had similar experiences.  It was vindicating.  But then I couldn't do anything else.

But it has gotten better.  And then there are times when I am sucked back in....a letter comes from my former best friend.......saying, "Good-bye".  Just that, "Good-bye", nothing more.  Twenty years of friendship ending in a card with just the words, "Good-bye".  Events that are currently unfolding, that I don't feel at liberty to discuss right now, have brought me to another low place.  I've had some dear assembly friends who I still remain in contact with who I know love me and I love them say, "Why don't you just forget about it, put it behind you, I don't like to see you this way."  And then I think about what Brent went through, wading upstream those two or three years with soooo many more people saying even worse things.  If Brent hadn't "fought the good fight", exposing the lies, the abuse, etc. my family might still be in bondage.  

Don't get me wrong.  I don't believe everyone is called to "fight the fight".  But if you are called, like I believe I am, it doesn't matter that it brings me into a place of dispair and depression.  It is dispair for the lost, depression for real people who are drowning and continue to be influenced by wolves in sheeps clothing.  But it is a difficult fight......one I am willing to invest in.......because the rewards can be great.......if even one soul escapes.

Yes, Suzie Kuh is the current Mrs. Tr0ckman!  (I say current in order to keep her on her toes for the last 18 years ;)  )

The timing is right for you to have met her, and if you met her, you probably met me.

Brent

I can't tell you how your writing moves me Delila.  I also find it hard to express how much I can identify with you, in many ways.  What you said below is exactly why I started the website, and the result is exactly what I had mind.

With regard to your current relationship with God, I would like to say a couple things:

Faith in Christ does not mean an Assembly style "walk" with the Lord.  Throw out all the death-to-self stuff that worries you...IT SHOULD WORRY YOU!  Jesus wants you to be a whole person, well adjusted, joyful, strong.

God is patient and kind.


Brent

Dear Delila  :)

  Thank you so much for letting us see into your private struggles.  No, you are not cracked and much of what you have told us we can identify with in one respect or another
  I have not found a way to eliminate all doubts or fears re. my faith in Christ and I think if we are all honest we can all say the same thing.
   To share a little personal insight into my own experience in this regard might be helpful to you, and others.  First, I love your poetic style that helps us to visualize spiritual concepts.  I have a natural tendency as well to view things from an emotional perspective and I don't automatically dismiss this as an invalid indicator of reality.  Lord does indeed know that if we had listened sooner to what we were hearing from inside we would not have fallen for GG and company's deception.
   When I read your post I see this same struggle going on in your soul between what "you know" and the great unknown of a "true" relationship with God.  Many of us are/were fearful of trusting our abilities to make decisions in this area, but for me God threw a life preserver via a bumper sticker when I first left the Assembly.  This bumper sticker said, JESUS IS MY BEST FRIEND.  
     In the assembly we were taught that God is the friend of sinners at the beginning of our life with Christ and then He is transformed into an metaphorical iron worker.  In this Assembly relationship we are also now transformed into a piece of metal to be formed by the hand of the Master.  The work of Jesus on the cross is changed from redemptive to a place of forging a new man via the now "anvil of the cross" where we lay awaiting another pounding from heaven via "the hammer of God".
   The bumper sticker I saw made me realize, kind of like the cracks of light you mentioned, that Jesus always just wanted to be my true friend that sticks closer than anyone else could.  As the thought continued to work in my mind I realized that the cross of Jesus was about God reaching out to me, giving to me, bringing me near, throwing his arms around me, and assuring me that he accepted me without question as His own.  Your intution regarding the true nature of love that you see in your relationship with your children is much closer to God's love than the Assembly view.
  I realized then that this is the very essence of spirituality and it has become an anchor in my soul, that stills wonders about a great many things in these shadowlands where we now dwell.  I don't have to overcome all the doubts and fears in my soul, nor even deny that they are there as what makes my life now is the fact of Jesus' love for me.
  This friend does not seek to control my life but to win my affection:  "Lovest thou me more than these?"  Only those who know Him this way can really serve Him.  The peace that came to my soul that day rejects any notion of a God who changes from lover of my soul to cruel abusive master.
                                    God Bless,  Mark C.

Wheww Delila your post again has made me stop and think what do we have here???I again wake up, get my coffee, and try to check recent posts before I hear my kids yelling Mom what are you doing????? Why are you on the computer so much??? Can I define the Assm to them,do I even want to...Their view of God is Pure Un -Warped...How do you begin to tell them ..Well I was in this Legalistic  Church..ugh...Delila when I read this I was blown away..I kept thinking one word GRACE.....but I had more words ,a maze of words, I felt speechless...I felt the Love of God ...and I thought of the well worn poem of "Footsteps " so mass produced and overused...but I thought of the part where it says ...When you saw only one set of Footprints it was then that I carried YOU!!!! It may take awhile to know hes carried our Sorrows and our Griefs ..But he has..I used to say ..Let God do His Work...and he showed me Nothing can separate us from the Love of Christ ..Not even the Assembly!!!!!

Many ask, "Why do we continue to post here?  Why do we continue to remain active on this BB when we left the assembly, just put it behind you, get on with your life, etc."  

But for every Delila, who I think so adeptly brings us in to the everyday life of a former member, there are the readers who do not post.  We know there are people who are reading this site, but not posting.  They have their stories too.  They just don't post.  I am always so intrigued when new posters come here and begin to relate their stories.  Always so interesting, affirming to know that I am not alone in my journey for wholeness.

BTW ...I never leave home without a pocket full of rocks...never know when a pack of wolves might appear!!!

     This reminds me of those entertainers who we refer to as magicians, from Robert Houdin to David Copperfield.  Real magic, of course would fall under the heading of "dark arts," and not entertainment.  But these folks practice the arts of prestidigitation and legerdemain (fancy words for "deception").  They use a method known as misdirection by which they create a distraction to draw your attention away from what they are really doing so that you are utterly surprised when they have done it.
     But spiritual life is infinitely more important than entertainment, and the practices of deception have no place therein.



     It may or may not surprise you to know that many of us on this BB are familiar with all the feelings/viewpoints expressed in the quote above.  In the absence of genuine joy we have persuaded ourselves of our "happiness."  We have known many forms of heartbreak, legitimate and otherwise.  We have dreaded facing the Truth; wanted to be able to believe in the lie.  And, after all, we thank God Almighty for never abandoning us to our folly.  "Great is Thy faithfulness..."


     You will be getting promises, but when God has a verse for you, He will give it to you.  When He gives me a verse, it will be for me.  And when this reality becomes clear to you, you will not be troubled when someone tries to show you a verse, whether from a genuine desire to share, or from a putting on of spiritual airs.  You will not be troubled because you will know Whom you have believed and you will be fully persuaded that He is able to keep you and to perfect in you the work He has begun until the day of His return.
     All of your old memory verses will serve you well in the days ahead.  The Bible will be a friend again.  But don't be troubled about how that will happen, or when.  Just live.  Be a Mom to your kids, a teacher to your students, a neighbor to those around you.  Enjoy sunrises and sunsets, listen to a bird sing, watch a bug, read something interesting, marvel at the weather, surprise someone with a card or gift, play some good tunes or a fun game.
     God is on His throne.  He has heard everything you have said to Him, and forgotten none of it.  He will answer the honest prayers (in His own way and time), and will forgive the angry words.  Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid...

al Hartman