- WOUNDED PILGRIMS

Hi All!
I love the above topic consideration and as such am bringing it back. I would like to raise the thread again with a story/analogy re. The parable of The Good Samaritan. Let me know what you think and how you might add/subtract to the story.
Face down in the dust with not even the strength to lift my head I figured I would be left for dead. Why did God allow this to happen to me?!
It all started when others in my village were excited about a new speaker here, so I went to hear him speak. He taught that we were to head down to Jericho where God was going to start a work of revival and restoration of His Testimony.
Who could argue against that?! Israel was far from the purpose of God. The Prophet's call to a meaninful purpose and godly service struck a chord in my heart.
There was a large group that headed out of our village and as we went along we picked up many on the way. Our call to others was to join the group on our journey to follow God's perfect will. Those who rejected the call were obviously worldly and their questioning of our leader's teaching and motives was devilish.
Our leader reminded us that we were part of a special group and this made us feel good and able to reject the divisive questions of those who did not join us. We sang the wonderful psalms of ascension as we journeyed in joy, though we were walking down to Jericho.
The nagging questions did bother some as they dropped off from the journey. We rejected them as worthless, for their weakness. God used the journey to get rid of those not really strong in their commitment. God gives grace only to the faithful! To failures come only wilderness wandering, as our Fathers received.
The journey was long and hard, as the Leader held to a rigorous pace, though he was often carried by others himself. This was necessary as he was the leader and needed his strength. We went to villages around to get food for him and others, while his special associates, and himself, were free of this extra burden.
The journey now became too difficult for me as I was not only tired, but feeling sick. I was told if I couldn't run with horseman, what would happen in the swellings of Jordon? I was faithful, but it seemed that grace did not come.
One day I fell way behind, and with the other stragglers, was left to perish. Robbers, seeing me stop away from the group, landed on me and stole what little I had left of the money I took with me for the journey. Not content to take what I had they proceeded to beat the pulp out of me. I lay there, my face in the dust, expecting to not last the day.
To be continued: Mark

THE STORY OF THE GOOD SAMARITAN CONT.

As I layed there a priest of God walked by, but was too busy with his journey to offer anything but words. I told him I was following God, fell ill, and then was beaten and robbed. He reminded me of the need to forgive those who have offended me and to not be bitter against them. I told him it was hard not to feel bitter and angry, to which he shared a few verses re. forgiveness and left me there.
Next a levite walked by and seeing me there also continued on his way. I called out to him, but he muttered something about, keep looking on the sunny side, as he faded away on the horizon. I could still hear him whistling the tune after I could no longer see him.
The next one to pass my way surprised me for he had come up without me hearing him. He had no words immediately for me, as he quickly came to my side to check my condition. I was in such bad shape I couldn't make out who he was. He treated and bound my wounds and then placed me on his donkey.
I could now see that he was a Samaritan. Samaritans, by definition, were out of the will of God. However, I felt that I could talk to this man. I told him how I had followed the prophet and the rest of the story that led to my being left half dead where he found me. He listened very kindly, and seemed to understand; tears appeared on his cheeks.
He told me how he was just like the Levite and priest in his Samaritan religion, but had recently met a man named Jesus Christ who had changed his heart. The Samaritan, though deeply commited to his religion, admitted that it hadn't changed his sinful heart and ways.
I recognized from this "Samaritan" that he had been following men and groups and that I had been doing the same. I also discovered that while the group was cruel to the individual in it's drive to promote the group goals, this man had discovered what I really needed.
I shared of my anger at the prophet and his followers for treating me the way they did and he also confessed that he was no longer welcome in his village as well. He said that his Samaritan village saw him as against God as he tried to share with them the things that he had learned about Jesus. You could tell his anger was restrained by his love of his fellow Samaritans, but that it pained him there was no hiding. He took me to an Inn and paid for my time of rest and recuperation.
It was weird not having a day full of exhausting pursuit of the will of God and able to just relax and think. Though I was not doing anything I felt like I had learned the most in my entire life the last few days. I saw how I was fooled by my own ambition, and was not following the will of God in my previous group involvement. The appeal to "be one of God's special one's" led to my demise. I now hungered to meet the Jesus that had transformed the Samaritan, as I wished to have the same loving heart that he expressed. I thought, isn't this the fulfillment of the law and prophets?
To be continued--- Mark

THE GOOD SAMARITAN CONT.

I was feeling better now and was eager to seek out this Jesus Christ who had helped me through my encounter with the Samaritan.
I asked around the Inn for information about him, but the consenus was divided. Regular folks who heard him seemed to be positive and remarked that he had done some notable miracles. A Pharisee told me that he was a false prophet and that his miracles were from the Devil.
Due to my past mistakes in following a false leader I was very sceptical of any advice. One thing I knew; the Samaritan was the only one who helped me when I was down and the reason he did was because of his encounter with this Jesus.
In my previous group, they talked of the promised Messiah, but he was to appear only in Jericho; through the work of rebuilding the city. My former leader taught us to see God's Word through his insight and to not trust our own. We also were to see that God would reveal his Messiah through the group. To pursue God as an individual was merely an excuse to do our own thing. The leader reminded us all the tribes in the Wilderness faced the tabernacle where God dwelt.
Now, as I read the prophet Isaiah I came to Chapter 53 and read concerning a suffering Messiah who would die for the sins of His people; wounded for our sins. The passage lept off the page and hit my heart like a tsunami! The same caring love that the Samaritan showed, but was absent from the others who didn't help me, was described in this passage regarding the Messiah!
I set out to find this Jesus. As I travelled I found some of my old friends from my previous group, who had dropped off as I had. I told them my story of how the Samaritan had helped me and of the Messiah Jesus whom I sought. Some had heard enough of following any kind of Messiah. Most, still believed in God, but were totally burned out on the issue.
The most incredible response was from the former member who shared with me that though the group was off a little, it was still a positive experience for us to go through! I asked how that could be, to which he explained that there were some good people in the group and we had shared some good experiences. This person also shared how we had studied the scriptures in a very in- depth manner. This was good, he explained, because it was like our own Torah school.
I asked this former member had he not seen the many left for dead on the road?! How about those who had become so disheartened that they had become agnostic in regard to their faith?! And, what about the false leader's teaching that led us to a false evaluation of the will of God?!
I then shared my own personal meeting with the Samaritan and my discovery of Isa. 53.
The former member said that he prefered to focus on the positive and warned me that I was giving into bitterness. He shared some Proverbs with me re. forgiveness and holding grudges. I asked this Brother if he didn't feel like those hurt from their involvement in the group might need some help. His response was to say that they just needed to get over it and to get on with their life; having a big pity party won't help.
After talking with him I felt similar to when I was lying in the dust and was told to keep on the sunny side! I was sure that such an attitude was not the way to healing and recovery. I was still confused though, and had trouble in answering this man. My conscience was tender and I was afraid that I might be too negative regarding my evaluation of the group. This man didn't seem to suffer like I had in the group and he did seem to bring away some positive experiences.
As I continued on my journey to find this Jesus I thought on these things. I felt that the "sunny side man" (as I called him from then on) was missing an opportunity to learn some of the lessons available from our involvement in the group. I also believed that he would not be able to help those hurt in the group. If he wouldn't address the issues hurting people how could he help them? Just dismissing their feelings as "bitterness" would only lead to further shame for these wounded souls. I wondered what the Messiah of Isa. 53 would say regarding this issue?
to be continued Mark

GOOD SAMARITAN STORY CONT.

I had heard from some that Jesus was speaking nearby and I was going to make sure that I was able to hear Him speak. I could see a crowd gathered ahead and wanted to get up close.
When my former false prophet spoke I was adept at forcing my way up to the front of the gathering. People, with their families were gathered around, and at first I tried to get through them to the front. I then thought of the love and care of the Samaritan for me, and how selfish I was acting. It was funny that while in the group I had developed a hardness in my heart toward others. I looked over the group and saw people now, instead of those blocking my way to Jesus. I had been so judgmental and proud in the past. A wave of self disgust spread over me.
I found a little knoll over the spot where Jesus was and was content to be at the back. If God wanted me to hear Jesus then he would help me to hear.
I noticed that some religious leaders were gathered around Him (I Assumed that He was Jesus, as all were gathered around Him). I don't know if it was a miracle, or if my position on the hill provided an advantage, but I could hear every word!
A law teacher asked Jesus how one could inherit eternal life. Jesus responded with a question, "how do you read the scriptures?" The law teacher had a good doctrinal answer, "love God and your brother and you shall fulfill the law."
Jesus commended his answer and said, "Do this and you will live." It seemed to me that the lawyer was trying to trick Jesus into not answering correctly; the body language gave the law teacher away. Jesus, seemed to be also playing a clever game with the questioner.
The lawyer received the correct answer from Jesus, but must of had a twinge of conscience for he qualified his first question by asking Jesus ,"who is my brother?" I had the same inner check at the correct answer, remembering the very lesson I had learned when first arriving at the gathering; loving my Brother?! I will never inherit eternal life if is it is based on my doing that!
I felt down cast, but as I lifted my head I noticed that Jesus eyes were fixed on me! I looked behind me to see if Jesus was looking beyond me, but no, I was at the top of the hill and there were none behind me! A loving smile was on his face and I felt as if He knew me and all of my long story of failure!
He started to tell a story to the Law teacher and the gathered crowd, but all the time he was looking right at me! It was the story of the Good Samaritan!!! It was my story!!! It didn't have all the details in it, but clearly it was my story. This Jesus knew my story; not just the physical details, but my emotional pain--he knew it! I could see in his eyes as he looked at me and told my story that he felt every hurt as if it was His own.
As he spoke I remembered Isa. 53 again and the suffering and loving Messiah, by whose stripes others would be healed. I now knew that this Jesus was indeed my Savior and loving friend.
The gathering was over and Jesus and His disciples left, and though I was unable to meet Him and talk to Him personally, I had experienced something more intense and personal then a conversation. I carried that experience in my heart and it was as if Jesus continued with me.
This one who knew my wounds, was wounded Himself several years later. He was crucified by the Romans after the Jewish religious leaders had insisted he be put to death. I now understood the true meaning of Isa. 53. and that he had died for our salvation.
He knew my personal story and used it as an illustration of how to find rest in the true love of God! I have learned so much more now of what that means; of the true grace of God found in the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
In my case it meant a special understanding that Jesus is like the Samaritan and not like all those religious folks that I ran into in my past.
Yes, I was a deeply wounded pilgrim, but Jesus is the real
and original Wounded Pilgrim! And He is intimately aware of all of our painful past. He understands our anger, bitterness, and disappointments. He wants to be our friend and take all our burden on Himself.
My former group was mostly broken up, when the leader was found to be having immoral relations. Some are still trying to rebuild a new Jericho, thinking that the prophet had some good ideas. I believe that my story has been helpful to some of these, but others don't want to hear it.
My prayer is to have the same love the Samaritan showed me and to win my old Jericho friends to understand the grace of God in the Gospel. One thing is for sure; I will never forget the time Jesus told my story!

DEDICATED TO ALL WOUNDED PILGRIMS
Mark

Hi Everyone!
I shared this story of The Good Samaritan as an illustration of my view of the concept of my much loved thought concerning "Wounded Pilgrims."
I know it could appear to be a bit contrived; like the Christmas song, "The Little Drummer Boy", as it mixes fiction with fact to make a point. The story was kind of an experiment and the reason for that experiment I will explain.
Most of us who were hurt in the Assembly, and are seeking healing and restoration, are now aware of the twisted version we were taught of relating to God. GG taught us to serve God on the basis of our performance vs. a gift based relationship. I have also noticed that though this brings relief to many who discover the above truth, there is still a feeling of emptiness with some.
When I first left I remember feeling as if a great weight was lifted from me, but also of a great loss; almost a weightless floating in space. To go from the great security of being on the cutting edge of the will of God, to the knowledge that I had been deceived for 20 years took away any confidence in my previous experiences that I had understood as knowing God's presence in my life.
The story illustrates the discovery of healing and recovery for a wounded pilgrim, who like many of us, were gung-ho for "the purpose of God" and were left for dead by those who took advantage of our zeal.
Eph. 3:14-21 is a wonderful prayer that asks God to fill the believers in Ephesus with the "fullness of God". This comes about by the Spirit dwelling in the inner man and bringing Christ to dwell there through faith; a tremendous intimacy with God that we might grow in our awareness of God's love for us personally. This love is not a distant doctrinal statement, but the present living thought of God that he wants us to experience in the depths of our being.
The story illustrates how Jesus is very aware of our wounding and I believe takes a special interest in those who have been hurt in false religious systems. Jesus demonsrated clearly that he cared especially for children, widows, bent reeds, smoking flax, lost sheep, broken sinners, and the general rag-tag group that sought Him.
Dear friend, He knows your story and really does want you to know that He is sympathetic. Jesus really is our best friend!
Your thoughts? God Bless, Mark

Dear Jack :)
I'm glad you liked the story and found it helpful. As I said in my last post it was an experiment and runs the risk of making the Bible say something it is not saying (adding to scripture?).
I think I'm safe from the above charge as I clearly declared the story to be fiction and like a parable, analogous.
My intention in writing the story was to help those, who after being in the Assembly, and now know their freedom to find healing and restoration in Christ.
As you said, there is so much to unlearn and yet there is so much to learn as well. I am so thankful for the website as it helps me to think through both of these things and to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus. We learn from each other as we share our stories and try to discern baby and bathwater.
If you don't mind me asking Jack, what Assembly are you from? How did you find the insight that brought you liberty?
There are many that just read here and they might find your experiences helpful to them.
God bless, Mark

Hi again Jack! :)
In surfing the site I noticed that you are from SLO; so disregard the previous question re. what Assembly you are from.
I was from the SFV and was in for close to 20 years; I have been out for almost 12 years now.
Everyone!
It seems that a few people enjoyed my little story and so that encourages me to try another one in the future. I have tried to write poetry, but that is not my forte. These stories were helpful to me because they helped me to see how Jesus might see our present situation.
Knowing the love of Christ for us as individuals is the key to inner strength. It is of course a fact, and as such doctrine, but we are encouraged to receive the teaching as our very own.
"But, what of your post re. the Laodiceans, Mark? Does that not show that sin can block the experience of that blessing described above?"
The Laodiceans were way off base and that due to pride. Wounded Pilgrims, like us, don't usually have that problem; we recognize it was our pride that caused us to join in the elitism. Jesus talked very roughly with Pharisees and was very gentle with broken sinners seeking mercy.
When we sin, and we will fail, Jesus is never closer; to those behind the closed door of pride there is only the distant knock at the door. Remember the parable of the Pharisee and Publican and who left the temple justified?
It is a sad fact that the one's who need a sensitive conscience are most hard and the one's with the overactive conscience are in most need of consolation.
God Bless, Mark

Mark,

After reading some of other peoples' stories I've thought seriously about writing my own. It will take awhile, though. My journey has not consisted of a series of traumatic experiences, but I think it will help others see a more complete picture. Also, I think it will help me to think it through. People who left a long time ago will also be able to get a peak at what things were like in the Assembly all the way to the end (almost).

In a nutshell, my exit process started last April. George told me privately that he thought all the negativity in SLO started with Kirk Cesaretti. While at the time I did not agree with Kirk's actions (stepping down from leadership, later leaving the Assembly, and inviting us to his home knowing Brent would be there), I knew that that comment was not fair to Kirk. Also, it struck me how easily George shifted blame away from his family. At George's behest I began to meet and pray with David. I had the gut feeling David was lying when he repeatedly hinted that he had done nothing wrong, but since I had no evidence I did not confont him. The Code of Silence was still influential in my thinking, so I did not look for information from the 'outside'. I was also suspicious of George when he came to SLO in December to 'take responsibility' for his son's actions. He handled it like a politician (and a bad one at that).

After the meeting between Brent, the leaders from SLO and the pastor from Calvary SLO Danny Edwards said that the website would be used for healing. I immediately started reading the articles and the BB. After 4 days of reading the truth about the ugliness of what the Assembly system was really all about, I was free.

The first 10 days were rough, but since then I've been having a great time. My family (my mom, my sisters, etc.) and my wedding video business are a lot more important now. I've read 3 books about abusive churches and I'm anxiously awaiting the arrival of my 4th. I'm still looking for a church to join, but I'm not in a hurry. I really enjoy going to church with and hanging out with people who left. I'm taking things slowly. This for me is a time for rest, simplicity and contemplation.

Jack

Thanks Jack! :)
I agree with Tanya that you have the right idea re. just relaxing, reading, contemplation, and spending time with friends. It is wonderful to know that God is not the task masker the Assembly made Him out to be.
I think your story would be helpful for both the reasons that you gave: help for others and help in your own thought process as well. As you look back at all those "gut feelings" and try to put them into words there is a wealth of knowledge re. how religious folk can use certain methods to control others. Also, there is a wealth of knowledge re. how God is exactly the opposite to this in our relationship with Him.
I hope one of the books that you have, or are going to read, is The Subtle Power Of Spiritual Abuse. I think this is the best book in describing the way the abusive system works; I underlined about every word in the book!
I would encourage others reading here to follow Jack's example of enjoying his liberty in Christ and taking some time to think these through.
God can teach us some wonderful lessons from our experiences in the Assembly(no thanks to them) that can make us more like the Good Samaritan in my story; compassionate, caring, healing, truthful, courageous, etc. When we ignore thinking through our experiences, or take the "sunny side" approach, I think we could remain in the same shallow state that we were in while in the Assembly.
Depth with God comes from a greater knowledge of His love at the cross; not just in a propositional way, but by knowing that love is His love for ME! As I trust in His love, that sets me free, I have no fear of being completely honest with God; He knows, and He understands, and He still wants to draw us close!
I think the "little-big-man" in our story learned from his experience, starting with the Samartian, and ending with Jesus, how God loves him. That transformed the way he looked at others, and his effectiveness in bringing the Gospel to others as well.
Now I belong to Jesus, Jesus belongs to me; not for the years of time alone, but for eternity :) Mark

Mark,

I've read "Churches That Abuse", "Recovering from Churches That Abuse" and "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse". I'm waiting for UPS to deliver my copy of "Twisted Scriptures". I also want to read good books on God's grace. I've spoken to some who are presently choosing to keep their heads buried in the sand. If and when they become interested in facing up to the truth about the assemblies I will gladly tell them what I've learned and even let them borrow my books. Maybe they will just need someone to lend them an ear.

Some have said to me, "I never served George. I was serving the Lord all along." My response is as follows:

We all know now that George is a self-serving man. Self-serving people don't waste their time with people who serve Christ (and remember, we can only serve one master). Self-serving people always surround themselves with people who will serve THEM (intentionally or unintentionally). So that begs the questions:

If nobody was serving George, then why didn't he go elsewhere to find people that would? - Answer: He didn't need to go elsewhere. He was in his element. He found plenty of people to serve him in the assemblies.

Also, wouldn't those who truly served Christ have left such a place of idolatry? - Answer: They did. And for that choice they were treated poorly.

Last night I had dinner with a brother that recently saw the light. It was so refreshing to be able to speak freely with him. He's even been challenging some of those who still choose to cling to the assembly perspective in their hearts.

God is good.
Jack

: Jack Hutchinson March 19, 2003, 01:09:45 PM

Mark,

Some have said to me, "I never served George. I was serving the Lord all along." My response is as follows:

We all know now that George is a self-serving man. Self-serving people don't waste their time with people who serve Christ (and remember, we can only serve one master). Self-serving people always surround themselves with people who will serve THEM (intentionally or unintentionally). So that begs the questions:

If nobody was serving George, then why didn't he go elsewhere to find people that would? - Answer: He didn't need to go elsewhere. He was in his element. He found plenty of people to serve him in the assemblies.

Also, wouldn't those who truly served Christ have left such a place of idolatry? - Answer: They did. And for that choice they were treated poorly.

Yes, that's right, Jack. You hit the nail on the head.
And Mark, what you were saying about depth with God also is so true.

George, as he boasted, "preached for 55 years from the Bible", and "I've preached from every verse of every chapter of the Bible, I don't know many other men who can say that." But he never knew the Jesus that was in the Bible that he studied.
If George really was a servant of the Lord, he wouldn't have acted like he did. I can not say that I ever sensed any caring or compassion or selflessness from him personally. The only selflessness we knew of George was what he boasted of about his "journeys".
I heard a missionary speak a few weeks ago. She talked about a mission they had at an orphanage in the Ukraine. As she was talking, I began thinking, "you know, George would never do what she and the other missionaries did. Why? Because there was nothing in it for him. What adoration could he aquire for himself in 'unfolding the mysteries of God' to a bunch of orphans?"
Did George ever help the poor or even care one iota about them?
But at that orphanage, the children came to know God -- really know him--because of the love, patience and kindness that the missionaries showed, working in unison with the Word they were preaching.

So it seems to me that everyone in the assembly got a messed-up picture of God, if they listened to George at all. I suppose if we were all coloring in our notebooks and then studying the Bible on our own, we'd get a different picture.

: Jack Hutchinson March 19, 2003, 01:09:45 PM

So that begs the questions:

If nobody was serving George, then why didn't he go elsewhere to find people that would? - Answer: He didn't need to go elsewhere. He was in his element. He found plenty of people to serve him in the assemblies.

Also, wouldn't those who truly served Christ have left such a place of idolatry? - Answer: They did. And for that choice they were treated poorly.

Jack! You've just hit a home run here. You have it absolutley, perfectly clear, and your articulated it beautifully. I am so glad for you, that you are getting these things sorted out.

Sadly, quite a few people fear to examine these errors, and the reason behind their involvment in George's sins, and thus never grow past them. They are doomed to repeat the same mistakes, or else remain paralyzed for the remainder of their Christian lives. At some point, the ideas you expressed in you post MUST be addressed.

If I had known you were reading all these books, I would have loaned you mine! But of course you would have wanted your own copies.

My favorite is Subtle Power, although the others are also good.

Brent

Brent / Verne-

Brent - : :)I think your earlier post is so right on. The key to "undefiled and pure religion is to visit the widows and orphans in their distress and to keep oneself unspotted by the world." More and more I see in the scriptures that the litmus test of true spirituality is genuine selfless service toward those who can not possibly do us any good. Giving to those who can not give back to us. I guess I am searching for a way to test myself and others after being so deceived.

I think it was CS Lewis who said, "a gentleman is someone who treats with respect and dignity those who can not possibly do him any good." Think about that when the spanish speaking gardener comes by, or the handyman is changing the light bulb in your office or the quiet older woman is emptying your trash can. Who is our neighbor?

In response to Verne Carty's strident statements that no one in the assembly could be serving Christ, but were only serving George, I beg to differ. Look at the woman who cast in her two mites into the treasury of the temple. Who knows, maybe those two mites were part of the 30 pieces of silver used to buy Christ's death. She gave to a corrupt system run my corrupt, self-serving, self-righteous Pharassees and yet, Christ noticed her pure devotion and intent of heart and desire to give to God. He is the judge of the thoughts and intents of the heart....not you or me. We need to beware of treading harshly on those dear ones Christ loves and notices and values. We may not see or esteem their service for Christ but He sees them at home, at work, in their private thoughts and knows who are His. :-*

: Gretchen Honan March 20, 2003, 06:50:10 AM

...
In response to Verne Carty's strident statements that no one in the assembly could be serving Christ, but were only serving George, I beg to differ. Look at the woman who cast in her two mites into the treasury of the temple. Who knows, maybe those two mites were part of the 30 pieces of silver used to buy Christ's death. She gave to a corrupt system run my corrupt, self-serving, self-righteous Pharassees and yet, Christ noticed her pure devotion and intent of heart and desire to give to God. He is the judge of the thoughts and intents of the heart....not you or me. We need to beware of treading harshly on those dear ones Christ loves and notices and values. We may not see or esteem their service for Christ but He sees them at home, at work, in their private thoughts and knows who are His. :-*

Gretchen,

Although I agree that many may have served out of pure devotion to the Lord, it is still difficult for me to fathom, how anyone "after" they have the knowledge of what George and his ministry have done, would still follow him and those of his ilk. This makes me seriously consider who their "pure devotion" is directed to. Verne's idea of a "defense posture" may help explain this.

By way of clarification, none of my comments on this BB should ever be generally applied to the rank and file of those involved with the man George Geftakys - they are victims. My comments are directed primarily toward those who held responsibility in that ministry; those who saw his true nature in countless workers' and leading brothers' meetings; those who heard his wicked slander of just persons and knowing full well their conscience and the facts contradicted George, stood silent. The number and the caliber of men and women who left George Geftakys forever bears incontestable witness to what should have been evident to most, if not all serving with him- witness what God has done in the lives of so many of them! I am sorry to say that this fact alone is indeed quite an indictment of many. My strident language notwithstanding, I say these things with tears, great sorrow of heart, and a sense of my own complicity.
Dear friends, how are those of us charged as watchmen to explain ourselves to the Chief Shepherd? It is difficult to express the deep sense of shame I personally feel over what has happened...I do not intend merely to be strident.
We yet do not fully comprehend the enormity of what ocurred. For those who have repented, forgiveness must be extended, but how can we ever forget...?
Verne

By far most people in the assembly were sincere: sincerely deceived. The sickening thing is that GG exploited our sincere desire to serve Christ and used it to serve his selfish interests. God saw that with our hearts we intended to serve Christ, but He also saw that our actions and words benefited George. For example, the more people we brought into fellowship in our assemblies (out of our sincere desire to serve Christ) the more money ended up in GG�s pocket (which he used to serve his selfish interests). Ours was a sin of ignorance.

As for the widow and her mite, I believe the comparison leaves out a very important factor: choice. The widow had only one religious system in which to express her faith. She had no choice but to put her mite in that particular box because there was only one priesthood and temple that she could have supported with her money. We, however, have always had the opportunity to leave and go to another church where our words, actions and money would have been used to bring glory to God instead of bringing adoration, power, money and sexual pleasure to George Geftakys. The major reason we didn�t leave is that we were deceived. Once we discovered the truth, we repented.

Was I being sincere, though, when I accepted the arrogant teaching that we had vision that nobody else had? Was I sincere when I accepted the notion (though we never explicitly taught it) that we were the cutting edge of Christianity? True, people took advantage of us, but we did make little compromises that had nothing to do with knowing about George�s corruption. Each one of us was attracted to the assembly for specific and different reasons. Something inside us drove us to make excuses to stay and/or remain silent even when the little red flags went up in our minds. We would do well to discover what these motives were. Doing so will bring healing and will keep us from making the same mistake again.

Jack

Hi All! :)
The excellent point that Jack brought up re. our deception that caused us to serve man over Christ fits this thread of Wounded Pilgrims well. Verne and Joe have responded, with a bit of wonder, that they had previously been blind to their involvment, and the positive aspects of understanding the above distinction of whom we serve.
I know that some don't like the idea of calling those who were involved in the Assembly, "Wounded Pilgrims." It might suggest to them the idea of eternal victimhood, and a unhealthy preoccupation with how hurt we may be. A kind of whinning that seeks to be noticed for all the wrongs that have been thrown at oneself.
What has intrigued me re. this topic, since I first discovered the title from a BB 10 years ago for cult recovery, was understanding the dynamics that allowed me to fit into the Assembly system. I consider the above things, not to continue my victimization, but to find God's message in the experience that will lead to a healthy pilgrimage with Christ. What a waste it would be to spend 20 years in a group, like the Assembly, and to ignore the past and to, "just get on with my life."
I would like to suggest that there is a wealth of value from looking at our past sojourn in the twisted paths of the Assembly, and as my story of the Good Sam. shows, to find that Jesus is the answer.
Indeed, for the pilgrim who was so wounded, a special depth of comfort, solace, knowledge, and compassion toward others can be discovered, that will yield riches of blessing, not only for the pilgrim, but for others who never went through a similar experience, but who pause to hear our message.
God Bless, Mark

Ah, Mark! I get it. Now I see where you are coming from. That is a noble thought indeed! I see it going hand-in-hand with the notions from the Bible -
"be not overcome by evil, rather overcome evil with good" and
"death is swallowed up in victory!" and
"what you intended for evil, God meant for good and for the saving of many people" and
"the Father of mercies and the God of all comfort comforts us in all our trials that we may be able to comfort others that are going through trials with the same comfort that we have received from God."
and many others...

Ah, excellent thought, and great hope there that there is nothing lost or meaningless in the life tended, cared-for, overseen, directed and shepherded by Jesus. Thanks Mark!
I think, though, it may take some time for me personally to come to terms with the experience to the point where it will be beneficial for others. And I have a hunch it is the same for many others who have "navigated the twisted paths of the assembly".

Arthur

Hi Arthur :)
I'm glad that you were able to see the point in the idea of, "Wounded Pilgrims", and when I first considered the topic I was concerned that the concept might not be understood.
10 years ago, as I was reading the posts' in that Wounded Pilgrims website, I was moved profoundly by many of the thoughts expressed.
There was one story of a man in a fringe Christian group that was living in the desert in Ariz., waiting for the imminent return of Christ. As he tells his story of how he sold his property and gave it all to their leader and prophet, I could not help but identify with his great feelings of disillusionment when the prophecy failed, and he and his family were left with nothing.
They tried to visit churches, and wanted very much to tell their story, but were not understood by those who they talked to. This left them to sit in the back pew and feel like outsiders to any sense of involvement in the purposes of God.
One day they discovered the Wounded Pilgrims website, and there those who had similar stories to which they could relate. They found out they were not so wierd after all, and gained insight into how they were so badly fooled into following the false prophet.
At their local churches the messages of the Bible did not help them, because they were so steeped in the twisted interpretations of the former group. They were so on the emotional edge that they were tormented by memories of how the group had used the Bible to dominate their lives. The church leaders had no clue as to how to minister to these devastated souls, and unwittingly, continued their suffering.
At first the father of this broken family just printed out the posts from the site and read them on Sundays to the family, as a kind of devotion. They were overjoyed to discover that there were others who had been through what they had, and also that there were those who understood their plight! This was the turning point in their recovery! From learning how the person of God, the grace of God, and the authority of God in their church was twisted they were able to discover the true God and the true Gospel!
Had this family just "tried to get over it" and to sit in the back of churches, it was clear they would have just faded away from any faith in God at all.
The Wounded Pilgrim website provided a Good Samaritan ministry to many similar victims who were left for dead on what they believed to be the road to God.
Arthur, you may not think you have done much, but I will never forget the story that you told re. your involvement in the Assembly. As you detailed your story and I identified with it there was value there that was "gold refined in the fire." There probably were hundreds of those who read and were able to identify with and gain solace from your trouble, as I was.
How does one gain solace from reading about someone's trouble? Just as the man above did by seeing that he wasn't crazy and that he wasn't alone in his deception. It is very important to know where the blame deserves to be placed, when trying to sort out our past involvement. The victim often tends to blame himself for being deceived, instead of understanding that the false leader (who ran off with all their money) took advantage of their simple sheep like characters.
Jesus comes after the one lost sheep and has great joy in their recovery!
Arthur, and other wounded pilgrims here, in telling your story, you have been participants in the ministry of the Good Samaritan. Those who just leave groups, like the Assembly, and go on to make a "new life", I believe are not sharing in a ministry in which they can do immeasurable good! The good will be for others, but it will also be seen in the depth of our own heart that looks more like The Good Shepherd of the sheep; our very own Christ of Calvary!
God Bless, Mark

a quote from Arthur's last post:

"Ah, excellent thought, and great hope there that there is nothing lost or meaningless in the life tended, cared-for, overseen, directed and shepherded by Jesus. Thanks Mark!
*****"I think, though, it may take some time for me personally to come to terms with the experience to the point where it will be beneficial for others. And I have a hunch it is the same for many others who have 'navigated the twisted paths of the assembly' ".*****

Arthur
...............................................................................

In my opinion, Mark has hit the nail squarely on the head, not only with the concept of this topic, but also with his remarks to Arthur and others:
"Arthur, and other wounded pilgrims here, in telling your story, you have been participants in the ministry of the Good Samaritan."

It is natural to feel discouraged and useless after discovering that you have been deceived and living in error. But that's all it is-- a natural feeling. The reality is that whatever we have confessed to him, Jesus Christ has faithfully and justly forgiven us of, and cleansed us from all unrighteousness.
By fighting past the bonds of your negative feelings, and posting on this BB, you have presented a living testimony to the grace and goodness of God. None of us realizes how much the very fact of our life gives Jesus Christ a chance to shine through to others.
Personally, i have been blessed by posts from Arthur and numerous others who are admittedly hurting from their experiences, but who have not surrendered to hopelessness, but press on to learn, know and serve Christ.

Wounded Pilgrims-- be of good cheer: your recovery is in the hands of the Great Physician!

al Hartman

Hi Everyone! :)
I thought I would come back to my favorite topic and discuss the experience of God's healing grace with those who may be interested.
Dave Mauldin raised the challenge that "so called" believers can behave very un-Christ like, while members of other religious faiths can behave closer to the loving nature of Christ. This claim is undeniably true and has caused me to give a great deal of thought to the question.
Cults and false holiness groups often make a big deal about the dispargy between proffesion of Evangelical Christians and their behavior. The idea of salvation by grace is offensive to those who have given great effort to produce something for God (when I speak of salvation I mean the Biblical version that is the gift of eternal life that can not be added to by us).
What really happens when we are saved and receive God's grace? Is our sinful nature erradicated at that moment? Do we begin to think in a godly and mature way in an instant? Does my behavior cease to be effected by my former ego centric practices?
If we are honest we will admit the answers to the above are no, no, and no. We do sense a struggle against sin in our lives, and a hunger for the righteousness of God, and a constant battle seems to rage within between two forces.
How then do we experience the power of God in our lives as Christians?
In the Assembly we were told that we could actualize the power of God through a "walk of reckoning faith". I believe this is nothing more than an attempt to merit grace by the exertion of one's will vs. true reliance on the promise of God.
Grace is for sinners, not holy seekers. Grace changes us from within as we honestly confess our inability to change ourselves. God weans us from self reliance to a dependency on the hope of the power of God in our souls.
We see in the Gospels the kind of people Christ met and changed and many were mired in obvious sinful lifestyles. As Christians we must never forget that grace always works the same way in our lives as it did in the beginning. We never get the "Christian life" so down that we achieve mastery of our souls.
Christians are often those who had obvious trouble with sin in their lives before coming to Christ (I know all have trouble with sin, but some seem to have stronger natural character than others) and this "trouble" will be always present in one's life, to some degree.
Believe it or not, this is the true nature of sanctification and when we think we are the most hopelessly trapped in our own need we are the closest to the heart of God (a broken and contrite heart God will not despise).
The above is not an invitation to a soul-searching higher life teaching, or to a morbid self preoccupation, but to a honest assesment of one's condition and a deeper discovery of the love of God.
It will cause you to accept your own humanity and the humanity of others. It will also cause there to be a compassion for others who are struggling with sin. These are the kinds of behaviors that can not be self manufactured and bear the marks of the Holy Spirit.
There may be others who have stronger wills than I, more disciplined lives, and even make more courageous sacrifices (I'm sure there are) than I, but God intends us to be to the praise of the glory of His grace.
Jacob became Israel when God broke his leg and he learned to lean on his staff. Jacob leaned on that staff the rest of his life. He called his days "evil", for he was reminded of all his failures, yet God fulfilled his promise in Jacob and brought him to full blessing.
Yes, Jacob was a wounded pilgrim and was near to the heart of God. God loves us and fulfills his promise to us, not on the basis of our good example, but simply because of the goodness of His heart!
God Bless, Mark

Mark---

Thanks for your post. It's always great to read what you
have to say, and it's always a blessing too I might add.
I'll just add something I read in a very comforting book
that I have been re-reading recently "A lifting up for the
Downcast" by William Bridge. He's an old Puritan writer
from the 1600's. He states in the book that faith and salvation is a gift of God. It's like a beautiful huge jewel that is given to all. Whether it is in the hands of a little child who receives it, or in the hands of a great, mature and conquering saint, it's the same jewel. We have all received "like precious faith" from the Father. As it says in Jude, we are called to defend the "common salvation" which is given to all. "It is not of him that willeth, or he that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy".

The Lord also showed me something recently that was really quite amazing. As is the case with many a Christian, we feel that we are more unrighteous than the next Christian or the next person. But the Lord says "There is none righteous, no not one". Sould anyone try to claim righteousness through pride this verse adresses it. The Lord sees us all as unrighteous in ourselves--none of us can redeem ourselves. But what if we take the opposite tack--and claim that we are MORE unrighteous than others?
Is this not also a form of Spritual Pride? "I am far more unrighteous than other Christians, how could God possibly forgive me or welcome me at his throne?" This the Lord showed me, is also Spritual pride.

By this we may be implying that God's Grace is not great enough for us--and that we are somehow different than other people in the world who need a savior. "My Grace is sufficient for thee". I know it's a simple thing---but many of us take a lot of time learning it. Thank God for his mercy and Grace!!!

--Joe

Hi Joe! :)
And I thank you for your post as well! :)
You make a very good point re. thinking about ourselves as somehow a worse sinner, and therefore beyond the reach of God's grace.
One of the most pernicious teachings, that leads to the kind of condemnation that you refered to in your post, is the oft preached message, "What have you done with what God has given you!?"
Some may ask, "what's wrong with stirring Christians to lay-hold; are we not exhorted in the NT to do so?"
It is not splitting theological hairs to make the distinction between working as a result of my salvation vs. working to actualize my salvation. The latter builds a gap between God we can never cross and the former is a vital connection that produces fruit (Vine and Branches). The Spirit makes us aware of our place in Christ Jesus.
We sometimes have grandiose concepts of what that vital union should look like in real life. The transformation is not from human to super-human. For the harlot wiping Jesus feet with her tears and hair her act was only a cause for indignation from the Pharisees (those very observant of correct behavior). However, the behavior of the woman was just a very emotional expression of gratitude. Why? because she saw her forgiveness in Jesus and His cross.
I'm sure many here remember Doug Large from the Valley Assembly. We tried and tried to help him overcome his bad habits and to achieve in him a disciplined life in Christ. At the time it would have never entered my mind that Doug was "more necessary" in the body of Christ due to his weaknesses. On the contrary, he was a constant burden to bear and seemed to be a long way from holding the jewel that Joe refered to.
What of the child, the feeble minded, the old? Because these don't have sharp minds and strong wills are they exempt from life in Christ?
God takes us the way we are and does not build upon our strengths. It would appear it is our weakness that is His advantage in us.
GG taught that when we sin God abandons us and the Holy Spirit is frightened away. In fact, God is never closer in our moments of moral failure. When we see that Christ went to the cross for the depth of our sinfulness we are assured that His love will not let us go. This is not only the work of justification, but sanctification in my soul as well.
The transformation from that experience may only appear a hobbled walk like Jacob's, but in reality he saw God face to face and his life was preserved! The world saw a scared and crippled Jacob, but within was the emergence of Israel--- a Prince with God!
God Bless, Mark

Mark----

What a refreshment. Thanks. I remember Doug Large
for sure. What a funny guy! The very first night I spent
in a brother's house ended with the awakening of Doug
in the morning, his alarm clock blaring, and him picking it up and breaking it because it went off 15 minutes early!!

I wondered what I had gotten myself into. But I remember
there being a "checklist" on the wall of that particular brother's house, in the kitchen, which listed Doug's life
for all to see. There were squares for "plus" or "minus" points for his appearance, attitude, stewardships, timeliness, etc.(the list goes on). If he were to be ahead in the "plus" column he didn't get any added stewardships that week. If he fell into the "minus" area he did more stewardships, or was given a fine of "minutes" to be made up somehow in the future for his faliures.

I remember I went and complained about this to the brother in
charge, but was promptly shot down and called a "rebel".
needless to say, this list made Doug very depressed and upset, until it was eventually taken down. Doug was a dear brother though. He did funny things, like kneeling down on the bus to have his "morning time", even if it was right beside someone he didn't even know.

But Doug was given the same "like precious faith" as every Christian is given. I know Doug passed away, but he is definitely with Jesus Christ right now singing his praises!!!!

Thanks for the memory Mark and for your very encouraging post.

God bless, Joe

Thanks Tom, Steve, and Joe! :)
Doug was my constant companion, as it was my 'stewardship' to control him from outbursts like the alarm clock situation. He lived in my brothers house until we decided that he should try to live on his own (I can't remember how we came to that decision, but is seemed a great relief to finally be free of "Babel-on the Great" (and he could babel on :))
I think the reason I was assigned to watch over Doug was because I met him and invited him out to the meetings. I'm not sure if it was a response to my Gospel preaching or the need of friends that drew Doug into the group.
He was constantly tortured between a childs maturity level and the strict performance demands of the group.
I now see why God brought him my way and how he was "more necessary". He taught me that Christianity is not an 'overcomer' performance, nor does the Holy Spirit transform us into 'super' Christians that triumph over all of their emotional baggage via reckoning faith.
I remember several humorous encounters between GG and Doug. GG did not like Doug, and it was funny how Doug could get his goat. They were very similar in some ways, as GG used to respond to him in the same kind of childish argumentative ways that Doug did.
Doug loved to argue prophecy and took issue with GG regarding his views on the meaning of Dan. and Rev. GG felt threatened by Doug and tried to put him in his place, but GG's threats went over Doug's head.
Doug once responded to GG's correction in a very clever way; Doug asked GG a question: "who was the first person to smoke a cigarette in the Bible?" GG was totally flustered and I thought he was going to stop the car we were driving in and let Doug out! Doug's answer: "Rebekah, for she lit off her camel!" ;D
I tried to get Doug to stop arguing with GG, as it was making the Valley look bad. I was very afraid of losing GG's approval, but it would seem that Doug was indeed more necessary than GG to my spiritual development.
Yes, thank you indeed Doug Large!
God Bless, Mark

: Mark C. May 28, 2003, 06:31:12 AM

Excellent post, Mark! Thank you.

No question about it, Doug Large acted on impulse at times.

When the movie, "Star Wars" came out in the mid 80's a group of Valley brothers went together to see it.

In the opening scenes Princess Lea's ship is captured by a humongous battleship. The faithful crewmen take defensive positions as Darth Vader's storm troopers blast through the door. Then they burst into Lea's ship and a gunfight takes place.

The folks in the theater were captivated by the tension and excitement of the scene....suddenly a man leaps to his feet in the theater and begins yelling..
.."BANG BANG BANG" while pointing his forefingers at the screen as young children do when playing "guns".

It was Doug. He had been completely caught up in the movie.

At the time I would have considered GG to be a far better man than Doug. But you know, I can't remember Doug ever doing or saying anything to anyone that was intended to hurt, humiliate, or demean them.

Thomas

Hi Everyone! :)
Thanks for the memories Tom! Yes, I was one of the bros. there that night in Westwood where Doug almost stole the show! ;D Not only did Doug not hurt others as GG did, I would contend Doug's presence worked in our lives to bring us down from our lofty elitist perches.
Also, Joe's joke ( ;D ;D) re. Chris Small and Doug Large is based in fact! They shared the same bunk bed for a period of time in my Bros. house in the Valley!
I'm glad that you enjoyed my take on the "Good Samaritan" Robb. It kind of sums up my whole take on the wounded pilgrim concept. For those not familiar with how I came up with "wounded pilgrims" it was the name of another BB from years ago that dealt with recovery from cults/abusive churches. The name does not imply that we are forever victims and stay mired in bitterness and regret, but that through understanding our experience we don't miss the opportunity to learn and grow from it.
Thank you Robb for your testimony (on another thread) and participation on the BB.
God Bless, Mark

Mark,

No problem!

I think the statement that says:
"If your not part of the solution, you're part of the problem"
can be re-worded to state:
"If your not part of the problem, BE part of the solution".

My family and I left many years ago, and while I did choose to leave, I've done nothing to be a help in times of trouble. Even in the Assembly I was more of a bystander. I know some people may take some of my postings wrong, but I went through it all in the Assembly and God has used some of it for good in my life, and continues to to great things in my life WITHOUT the assembly and it's leadership. God is gracious. By posting I'm not out on a personal vendeta, just trying to give and get perspective and help aid some healing and recovery for those in need. If anyone perceives that I've oversteped my bounds, please let me know and I'd be willing to take your thoughts into account. But, meanwhile, I'll continue to let the Lord lead me where I feel he wants me to go (not that I'm trying to be a Lone Ranger - I do have some faithful Christian friends whom I turn to that were not part of the Assembly - but I digress), not where I'm told to go base on the assumptions of what is best as told by someone higher up (GG).

Many apologies - this is about as vindictive and small minded as I get.

Hi-Ho! Silver! AWAY!

Hi Robb! :)
Re. your posts: Most people here will nod and say amen as they read your thoughts, for we share many of them.
As far as taking thoughts wrongly: This is bound to happen sooner or later, as communication via typing doesn't allow for any body language, or inflection of voice. I think most here now have enough experience on the BB to understand the inherent difficulties of this kind of communication.
Re. passivity: Ah, that was my great failure in the Assembly, and it has brought me some pain as well. Indeed, it is these painful recollections that cause me to invest my heart and soul into helping others learn from my mistakes.
The Christian life is not based on an outgoing personality, nor is it aborted due to a passive personality; the Christian life is about God's power, love, grace, mercy, and wisdom.
It is very beneficial and necessary to learn from our mistakes, but not to dwell there too long, as our mistakes are springboards to a new awareness of God. (I love how the life of Jacob illustrates this wonderful point.)
As we are all different individuals we will have a different aspect to share re. our failures and the discovery of His grace to meet that need. That is the beauty of this BB and we all have a necessary part.
God Bless, Mark

Hi ALL! :)
On another thread a poster mentioned that he thought a certain man was a Man of God. I certainly am not going to bring up the particulars of that argument, but it started me thinking exactly what this phrase, "Man of God" means.
I think it is important for those who were brought up in the Assembly to understand the proper or improper use of the above phrase. We were all told that GG and the Workers deserved such a designation, and that the rest of us should strive to attain to this goal.
Paul calls Timothy a "Man of God" in I:Tim. 6:11-15. The phrase in context seems to pertain to the charge to Tim. to make a valiant defense of the Gospel. I know that GG makes this passage appear to mean that Tim. had to get busy in making sanctification his via reckoning faith, but I don't think that's what Paul meant by "laying hold on eternal life."
Paul's exhortation pertains to Tim's "good confession" which was a clear understanding of the Gospel. To lay hold on eternal life is to constantly make sure that we have a clear grip on the message of the grace of God in truth. A Man of God is first and foremost sound in their understanding and commitment to boldly stand for the Gospel. This Gospel message is clearly designed for the entire Christian life (not just the beginning) and frees individuals from the bondage of false religious systems.
Of course this individual is to "adorn the Gospel" with a behavior that is beyond reproach. Was GG a Man of God until the time his moral failures were exposed? Were his followers Men/Women of God while GG's moral failures his alone?
According to I Tim. 6 we would have to hear the confession of these individuals and decide whether their understanding of the Gospel was correct and since it is abundantly clear that the practices of the Assembly were authoritarian, abusive, controlling, and highly toxic there would have to be a willingness to understand how a member was influenced by the above.
What of the charge that "we are all sinners", and "who are you to judge!" While it is very true that we are all sinners, and must hold our own judgment of others in humility, the two areas of teaching and practice we are to eneregetically use discernment in. If I understand Paul's charge to Tim. this is exactly what it means to be a Man of God. It is also how we can most help our Christian bros./sisters; who can complain re. an open and honest dialogue re. the truth of the Gospel?
There is more that I would like to say about other Men of God from the Bible that show them to be very human sinners indeed, but it is their reaction to the rebuke of sin in their lives that is the key, not the fact that they failed. I will try and post a follow up today that focuses on 2 of my favorite Wounded Pilgrims, Jacob and Peter.
God Bless, Mark

i know i'm a day late & a dollar short chiming in at this point, but this thread has brought back a flood of memories of the Valley brothers' house in the early days of the Fullerton assembly.

We often went out to eat after meetings, and Doug Large & David Hahn were, pound for pound, the champion eaters of the Valley, if not in all of Christendom. They ended up with more food on their shirts than most of us ate. We could have toured the farm belt, entering them in eating contests, and made a fortune.
Anyway, after a meeting in which reference had been made to 1 Samuel 21 & 22's Doeg the Edomite, the Valley brothers were gathered at table. Someone mentioned the similarity between the spellings of Doeg (pronounced DOE-egg) and Doug. About that same time someone else noted the vast quantity of food Mr. Large was consuming, and ever after Doug bore the nickname of DOE-ugg the Eat'emup!

After Cathy & i returned to Ohio in 1980, i never saw Doug again. He drove me to distraction at times, but i loved him dearly and i miss him to this day. Save me a seat at the table, Doug...

I was going through some of the older threads and saw this alternate "Wounded Pilgrims" thread and saw the last post made on the thread about Doug Large and Dave Hahn. I remember I used to ride the bus with Doug Large because we both worked in the same area.

If Doug got up late he'd barely make the bus. I remember a couple of mornings where he was chasing after the bus in bare feet with his shoes in his hands and screaming "stop!! stop!!" Several times he had his "morning time" on the bus, literally kneeling on the floor with his Bible on one of the seats. We would also read the Bible out loud on the bus, with Doug blaring the reading at the top of his lungs. He was a real character, but had a HUGE heart.

I remember Dave Hahn one evening reaching for the Italian dressing and shaking it vigorously. There was one problem---the cap was loose. He literally baptised Cyndi Campbell with Italian dressing. I tried as hard as I could not to laugh, but I couldn't help it, I just had to. One evening also Dave answered the phone, and held the receiver out towards Mark Campbell and said loudly "There's a Rooster Finley on the line for you". He had mis-heard "Mister" as Rooster. As Mark said "hello" we were all bursting out laughing. Dave looked confused and a bit annoyed--what was so funny? Oh well--guess you had to be there.

--Joe

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Discuss Doctrine => Grace and Truth => : Mark C. March 08, 2003, 11:22:49 PM