AssemblyBoard

I'm not trying to offended you bro.  I'm just concerned about your posts and your insistance on hanging to Assembly doctrine and beliefs.  Open your mind, pray, and read the Bible for what it truly says, not just what your seminar notes tells you it says.

Dear Eulaha...

I'm not trying to offended you sis.  I'm just concerned about your posts and your insistance on hanging to ignorance and fantasy.  Open your mind, pray, and read the Bible for what it truly says, not just what the nearest billboard says...

I am going to receive quite a bit of retaliation for what I'm about to say but...please, oh wise Eulaha, tell me how Luke confirmed that he is holding on to assembly doctrine and beliefs...I would appreciate that immensely...I personally just think you are jealous of his firm walk with the Lord and you are trying to take him down with you...One reason he left this BB is because people like you post without using any reasoning or common sense...Try it for once...you might get more positive feedback...Have a great day...

.....

By the way, Luke prefers MR. Assembly Leader to you!

Dear Mr. Assembly Leader,

What is your first order of business?

Are you going to reinstate George, David and Tim into different assemblies? How much will the donations to the treasury be this year. I know last year was alittle bleak.
Are you still going to claim you aren't paid clergy?

What name will you claim to call yourselves? Robinsonites!

What assembly are you from Matt?

Paid clergy? Oh yea, I am referring big time to the Geftakys and also the workers. Really, I don't mind paying the clergy. I just want the honesty in it. I remember George clearly stating that we don't believe in a paid clergy and why. Why lie about it? Why so much secrecy about where the money goes? Unless it is not being used for what they say....

Heide

Wow, I'm off the BB for a week and look what I caused! :)

Paul-stop defending your brother.  Poor poor Lukey!  Did him get offended??? :P

Heide-how's it going?

Matt, when I lived in Fullerton, the leading brother I lived with had two vehicles, one relatively new and the other a brand new hot red convertible.  This leading brother had no job.  Who do you think paid for it, huh?

Hi Matt.
  I'm afraid I don't understand all this hostility you seem to have toward Eulaha, and others who post on the BB.
  I don't think anyone said every leading Bro. in every Assembly was like GG and his family.  I was a leading Bro. in the Valley and was on the verge of poverty, or below the line all the time.
  I can also remember many very sincere, good people who were either leaders, or regular members.  The problem with those, who were otherwise good in the Assembly, is that they passively supported an evil system.  Zeal for God, that is not according to knowledge, is not for God at all.  I can admire the personal ethics of a Morman and yet have a strong disagreement with him in re. to his understanding of the Gospel, and his support of Mormon theology.
  I know the Assembly did not teach Mormon doctrine, but their understanding of the Gospel, the Christian life, and church government were twisted to the point that it damaged souls.  To the extent each individual Assembly accepted the direction of Fullerton, and submitted to it, they were a part of it.
  Who is more culpable?  Obviously, the ignorant and passive followers are the victims here, but now that we now know better, any defense of the old system is plain hard-hearted on our part.
  I'm not sure what you are trying to defend in your posts.  I tried to engage you once in a conversation but possibly you never saw my message.  
                     God Bless Neighbor,  Mark  

Matt:

Mark was not from San Diego, he was from the San Fernando Valley.  He left the valley almost 12 years ago.  He was a very humble, gracious man even then, always preaching on the grace of God, you would do well to dialogue with him.

I don't believe people have been treating the Robinson brothers "very badly" on the bb.  I think what most people in their posts to the brothers have been trying to get them to do is to have objective reasoning.  To really think through what they were spoon fed from the time they were born.  I have had private conversations with Luke (to try and get away from the public forum) as I believe he is a very sincere young man.  Sincerity does not mean you are right, however.  I am concerned for their souls.  The basic doctrines that we were taught in the assembly were heretical and if anyone continues in that theology it will not, cannot produce fruit.  It is a doctrine of works and the bible is clear regarding this doctrinal point.  I hammer on this point consistently in my posts, as I believe it was the flash point for many (if not all) of the problems that were produced in the assembly.  When a believer begins to walk in the reality of salvation is all of grace, the liberty is tremendous (not an occasion to the flesh, but a liberty to walk in oneness with my creator.)  This is why I have been trying to reach out to at least one Robinson brother.  Sorry Paul, although I find you rather humerous, I don't see much spiritual dialogue ensuing and so haven't taken the time, not that you aren't worth it, you are.

That does seem to be a problem with members who left the assembly in poor standing. We were marked. Funny thing is we are still being marked. We speak and we're branded for being bitter or angry. In order to understand us, you have to label us. I for one am no longer angry or bitter but I do resent how you talk to my sister. She endured alot in Fullerton and deserves alittle more respect than you dished out to her. Eulaha has come a long way from not wanting to talk about it, to finally talking. When you show that kind of courage Matt, I will show you the respect you deserve. Everyone has their own story, sometimes they aren't good ones, most of the time they are downright ugly.  

Unfortunately we all bear the mark from being involved with this assembly/cult and it will take some time to heal....

Heide

I was under the assumption that Luke Robinson for next Assembly Leader started off as a joke. I personally would vote for him because he has enough charm and wit to pull it off. I'm glad that Luke is still on here and posting, he was an opinion and should share it. I haven't conversed with Paul so I don't know about him but I have enjoyed sparring with Luke. I might have come down on you too hard Matt. I think Luke is a big boy and can defend himself. He does do well on the other posts.

I wish I could remember what Luke wrote and said what he wanted to be called. Was it Lukites?

Heide

Hello all,

Its been quite a long time since I bothered checking out the BB simply because I feel it served its purpose and turned into a slam session.  However, after talking with my two cousins: (the now infamous) LUKE ROBINSON AND PAUL ROBINSON, I decided to get on here and check it out.  Well I must say I was suprised to find this seperate folder in honor of my beloved cousin Luke. All I can say is that I coudln't agree more with you about him becoming a future Assembly Leader, matter of fact him and I (along with Paul) have decided to start off slowly by "outreaching" to campuses.  From there we hope to build a small but dedicated following of the doctrine of "Testimony To Jesus."  If you wish to support our endavours please e-mail me or send your money directly to me at:

              12345 I Love Money Blvd.
              Greed City, MO 63033

I appreciate all of your prayer and support as we humbly seek to further the kingdom of George....uh....I mean of the Lord.

Bravo Daniel,

You really ought to stay away from the Geftakys name tho. All the stigmas attached to it... Adultery, fraud, you get my drift. Be individuals for now, come up with some catchy phrase like "Iwantayourmoney." Claim to be european.

You are on a roll...

Heide

So by the state of "Missouri" do you actually mean the state of "Misery"? ;D

     You are ALL totally insane!!!  That's what i love about you!

     Forget being Robinsonites...  the "-ites" thing has been  
 W A Y overdone!  If you're looking for a "hook" upon which to display your movement, how about calling it:

      The New Age Middle-Of-The-Week Gospel Latter Day
     Swiss Family Robinson and Cousin Evangelical Revival

     You can really capitalize on the "Swiss" angle by:

     1.] Serving Italian SWISS Colony wine for communion...

     2.] Make the communion loaf SWISS cheesebread...

     3.] Replace all carob in training houses with SWISS      
          chocolate...

     4.] Require that all leaders have at least one meal a day
          of SWISS steak...

     5.] ...supplemented with a side order of SWISS chard...

     6.] In all cases of doctrinal dispute, be neutral, an
           internationally recognized SWISS quality...

     7.] Carefully time all ministry with a fine SWISS watch...

     8.] Buy Disneyland, and build your headquarters
          cathedral on the SWISS side of the Matterhorn.

     Maybe the pope will even lend you his SWISS guard to make sure you handle the offering properly (because we know what you've learned by observation).

Good luck (i SURE can't say God bless!),
al

Luke,

From the looks of it, it looks like Al Hartman himself is vying for the position of Future Assembly Leader.

MG

     i am the fearless leader of a small band who believe that to walk by faith, not by sight, means to post on the BB without thinking!!!

     All kidding aside, the only way you'll see me leading an assembly is down the sawdust trail to repent...

al

Hi All! ;)
  Thanks Kimberely for your kind remarks :).
  Matt, I now live in Northern San Diego County, which is why I refer to you as "neighbor".  I hope our private communication was helpful.
  Luke, thanks for your PM and I hope that I was able to explain my position.
  I think it would be helpful to try a public posting re. some of the issues re. how to have profitable discussion on the BB.
   I am a moderator, of sorts, who is often away from the BB and as such limited.  I don't view my contribution as being "neutral", as is commonly thought of one called a moderator.  I have a bias that I will freely admit upfront and that is the defense of the Grace of God in truth.  This defense is not just from a doctrinal point of view, but as it concerns the lives of specific individuals.
  Jesus and the Apostles identified two classes of individuals as, "offenders" and the other the "offended".  The "Offenders" were often directly described as teachers/leaders of false teaching.  
  As ex-assembly folks we were subjected to what I believe was a system of spiritual offense.  Some have suggested that the Assembly was not all that bad and that we shouldn't throw out "the baby with the bathwater."  While individuals all have different levels of culpability for their involvement in the group, and it would not be fair to lump all into the same condemnation, the erroneous system must be clearly identified and rejected.
   All this to say that, when I see those who post even a partial defense of teaching and practice of the evil Assembly system I will post a rebuttal.
  Re. defending the offended:  I will always side with those victims of abuse, even though I may wince at their angry reactions to what they feel is a defense of a system that damaged them.  These individuals have been deeply hurt and don't need to be told by me that they must moderate their anger.
  Yes, we are taught as Christians to forgive one another, but Christian forgiveness can only come when the Offender honestly and clearly repents.  Abusers twist the meaning of forgiveness to be able to continue their mastery of the abused by suggesting all the burden for change in their relationship lies with the abused adopting a forgiving spirit (as seen in the Dave and Judy situation).
  No, I'm not saying that anyone here is like GG. or that Luke is defending the old Assembly system 100%.  To say Luke is trying to restore the old evil empire of GG is ridiculous and as such Eulaha's thread title is out of place.  Of course, I don't think anyone really (including Eulaha) believes this.
   It is good, however, to examine what teaching and practices we may have carried out of the wreckage of the old evil system.  Our bias should lean toward doubt concerning our former teaching and entreatability toward those who have been trying to reach the Assembly with their concerns.  These concerns re. teaching and practice pre-date the current GG revelations of immorality and corruption.
   If we view the attempt to entreat and correct false Assembly assumptions as personal attacks we will effectively plug our ears to the knocking of the Lord at the door of our consciousness.  
   Those who recently have left, and have discovered that they were taken advantage of (some for 30 years!), must be excused for having some pent up anger.  As time goes by this anger can be replaced with a more moderate appeal that bears the signs of God's healing grace.  This does not negate the facts that are stated, nor the true need of the hour which is clarity of our past teaching and practices, and repentance from same.
   It is truly amazing how different the responses can be from those who were in the Assembly.  The Bible exhorts us to care for those of us in The Body who are most needy and to have a bias toward humbly lifting these.  Cocksure insensitivity and indifference is classic "Laodicean" attitudes, and as such should be eschewed.
                                      God Bless,  Mark  

Hi Al, Mark C

You have an excellent moderating influence on this BB.  And I say Amen to Mark's post.

MG

Hi All! :)
  I have been urged via e-mail to explain my previous post on this thread more fully.  I sent an explanation to the challenger of my post via e-mail.
  Please, all should feel free to publicaly respond to errors/ bad thinking/ etc., that I may post.  Though I'm a "Global Moderator ;)" the idea is that we have a forum here to discuss things, not a place for me to pontificate unchallenged.  I will try not to take comments personally and will attempt a civil response.
  The issue addressed was anger from offended exassemblites on the BB and my tolerance of same.  The concern was that I was contra scripture and supporting sin in the lives of those seeking recovery.  I was told to suggest love and forgiveness from the abused toward those who seem to defend some aspect of Assembly teaching/practice.  Jesus taught, "to love our enemies" and as such we are to even love those who hate us, etc. and not wait for honest repentance to forgive.
  In the same Mt. 5 passage we find other verses that exhort us to "be perfect that we might become the sons of God".  If we take this verse and interpret it privately from the context of scripture we might conclude that performance of sinless perfection is the path to salvation.      
   We must ask what the context of the "love our enemies" verse is and what was Jesus intention in the message of the Sermon on the Mount.  I believe the Sermon had the same purpose as the law of Moses, and that was to reveal our own sinfulness and need for salvation apart from law.
  How about the Epistles and their exhorations to love and forgiveness and the need to eschew bitterness?  It is sometimes hard to apply principles without an example to show us what these things look like in real life.  Jesus and Paul provide us with an understanding of what they meant re. love and forgiveness in the context of abusers and false teachers.
  Jesus did not feel that loving one's enemies meant not excoriating the Pharisees.  Love is rooted in justice, and the two can not be separated.  For ultimately the truth can not only set the abused free, but the abuser as well.  Love is not pacifism and egalitarism, but active and morally discerning in nature. Without the ability to judge moral differences and evaluate what is more sinful and what is less sinful in daily life we make a mockery of justice and as such are not loving in our approach to life. (I understand re. salvation all sin is equally condemning, but I'm talking relationships here, not salvation)
   One key to understanding the Bible is to have a common sense approach to it's application.  When Jesus teaches it's better to cut off body parts, then miss the Kingdom, we must ask if Jesus really meant for us to cut off our hands.  When Paul spoke the truth in Galatains in his correction of Peter was he hypocritical, for being so angry, or was he passionate in his love of the truth?  Common sense tells us here that Christ's love in Paul was not a "spiritualized" kind of ignoring of the situation, but active specific correction.
  Okay, but there are those who "hate" GG and Company and why encourage such bad motives?  I do not wish to encourage hatred of these pathetic souls, but my attempt to further silence these lambs is not helpful either.  I have found that anger is a phase and if individuals are allowed to vent they soon get over their anger.  I don't have chapter and vs. for the above, and would relegate my views to the area of observation of human behavior.
  The understanding of forgiveness and abuse can be seen in the following example.  You look out the window and see a man attacking a child.  You rush out and defend the child and then, after subduing the attacker, you demand the child shake hands and forgive the attacker.  Good practical application to loving our enemies, or stupid?  The application of discernment in the above situation demands that the attacker be brought to justice first.  Certainly it is not the time to enjoin the abused with lessons of forgiveness!  Nor would I correct the victim about controlling their anger against the would-be rapist.
   Is anger sin?  Sometimes.  Is wallowing in bitterness good for one's soul? of course not, but how to get out of it?  We must first be clear that passion re. truth and justice are not bitterness.  But, sometimes the reaction to the abused seeking a honest repentance from the abuser can be the defensive responses from those who don't want to deal with their abusive character.
  I understand posters' who make a partial defense of Assembly teaching and practices are not "abusers" like GG, but neither were the "bewitched and foolish" Galatains false teachers.  These Galatians were just recipients of the dangerous teaching and in danger from same.  So are posters who have not clearly seen the errors in their previous instruction and practices.
  Assembly abusive teaching and practices are the priority of the moment (as in the example of the attacker above) and defense of the abused.  Without moral clarity and establishment of what is most important in the Assembly situation we run the risk of making the abused the focus of correction (shaking hands with the attacker) instead of the attacker confessing and repenting of his crime.
                                     God Bless,  Mark  

I understood that MarkC was saying that this BB provides an open forum for communication, such that we can minister to one another and find healing.  Some of this communication happens via private messages and emails, and some openly on this BB.
I quote MarkC here (from a post on another thread):
It does no good to tell people not to be angry; we must help those dealing with it to find healing and recovery.  This occurs when we try to understand the reason for the anger, let them know Jesus is angry too, that they are just in their anger, but that they can move beyond anger and find consolation in Christ. - end quote

When one is angry, just telling them to not to be angry will not bring true healing. Rather it is the 'listening and understanding ear' and the correct application of God's word that will enable the brother/sister to change.
This is not only about GG and his family, but rather that God is cleaning His house, and preparing all of us for His Son's return.

Correct me if I am wrong.
MG

God the Father showed his "love" by crucifying his son.  I don't think we as mere human beings truly understand the word of "love" as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit understand it.  Before I have someone come after me, I am not saying that we should be "crucifying" our brothers and sisters who have perpetrated abuse either.  What I am saying is that we should be engaged in the proceess, much as Mark C. has illustrated.  It is a "process".  For each brother and sister involved that process is different.  

What concerns me are the people who do not want to allow dialogue to ensue.  These people would have us to believe that any discussion about the past abuses is constituted as "negativity" and should not be tolerated.  Jesus was very vocal about the abuses of the Pharisees, he even called them "hypocrites, whited sepulchres", not very politically correct.  For those who would point the finger and say, "You aren't God either", to defend why we should not be as Jesus pointing at the hypocrisy and abuse at the hands of men and women we considered dear friends, I say, "Then let's look at the life of the apostle Paul."  He was quite adament in his address of those who wanted to bring new believers again into a life of bondage to the law.  He "withstood" these ones.   He wrote letters, warning the church.  He was vocal.  He didn't just "shoo it under the rug."  He didn't just say, "let's 'love' our brethren and show them the same forgiveness that Christ has shown us."  NO!  He took action.  There is a balance.  God is the one who will ultimately judge these ones and hold them accountable.  But I believe, as God has involved us in this place, it is our responsibility to prayerfully involve ourselves.  It does not mean the same thing for all believers.  For one, it is to be in prayer.  For others, it is warning the church.  For others, it is ministering to the wounded.  For others, it is standing up to the abusers and attempting to bring these ones to repentance (yes, I know it is God who brings these ones to repentance, but God often uses individuals as His tools.)

I am here for the process, however God deems fit to use me.

Hi MG, Kimberley, and everyone :)!
  The concerned e-mailer that caused me to write the previous post deserves some public explanation.  My last post was not a specific answer to his entreaty (and I will answer the individual in an e-mail and try to explain my view) but, rather, a general response to those who use verses re. love and forgiveness toward those that have been offended.
  My previous, rather rambling, attempt was to show that pacifism and egalitarianism are not love.  My e-mailer understands this, and was rather concerned that I was missing the last portion of what MGov quoted from another post of mine, which is to lead angry souls to healing in Christ. (Yes MG, I think you are right ;))
   Kimberley mentioned that recovery is a process and that this process involves different individuals who have different contributions to make.  She also makes the very good point that we fall far short of expressing the Love of God toward one another.  This is the beauty of being members one of another and to talk about these things on the BB;  We all have something to share here.
  In that spirit I would like to get back to the topic of healing for angry souls in Christ.  My example of the abusive man and the child victim was obviously an extreme one.  I did that to make the point that scripture must be understood in the context of scripture and we must test our view of theology with how it would look in real life.  The one who takes Jesus words to "love our enemies" as an exhoration to pacifism must ask what they would do in my example.
   To bring it to an assembly issue (as I did) and suggest that the greater need is to correct abuse, not correction of the attitude of the abused, was a suggestion that Jesus was not equal in the way he practiced his loving ministry.  Jesus, Paul, etc. had wisdom and discernment; this means they were able to make distinctions between, not only what was good and evil, but what was better and what was more evil.
  In the debate between the Pharisees and Saducees Jesus took the side of the Pharisees in re. of how to view scripture and the Ressurection.  They were both wrong about crucial things, but the Saducees were more wrong.
  If the attitude of those offended by evil men, who operated an abusive system is made the focal point of exhortation, I believe a lack of wisdom and discernment is being excercised.  Would I like to help those bitter and angry to get beyond that to healing in Christ?  Yes, but as I stated, part of the process of healing is to understand that Christ views what was done to the wounded as very offensive to Him; He is angry too!
  I know, the posters here are not GG, and all have stated that they have some problems with GG, and are not defending him.  I respect that, and understand that we all fall under the category of wounded pilgrims here on this BB and no one here is in the business of leading false cults.  
  The problem I see, and why I raised the issue in the first place, is the retention of some of the teaching and practices that made up the abusive system by some contributors.  Paul made a big deal to the Galatians that there were 2 separate systems in relation to walking with God: The principle of Grace and the Principle of Law.  He also stated that these two can't have anything to do with each other--"throw out the bondwoman and her son."
   With Assembly teaching it is very difficult to understand how the two systems were merged in GG's theology.  GG seemed to say things that were okay, and in the next sentence contradict the previous point.
   I am going to try in later posts to address how I believe grace works in the Christian life and how different it is to what we were taught in the Assembly.  I will address the "anger" issue in these posts as I believe it might be helpful to our present discussion.  I have much to learn re. the Christian life and I hope to be helped with the contributions of other members on this topic.
  Thank you for suffering the long post.  God Bless,  Mark    

Kimberly makes good scriptural references here. Having been out a few years I have come to understand a bit about cults and brainwashing... this is a classic example of keeping everyone quiet so the abuse can continue without interruption. I understand that recently it hasn't worked so well... but they continue to say the same thing  - show longsuffering, be humble, keept quiet... they will continue to say it and many will fall back in line.

Question:
Why should Luke Robinson Become a Future Assembly Leader ??

Answer:
Good question.

MGov,

     If you're going to carry on both sides of your own dialogue, you obviously don't need the rest of us, so go start your own thread!


Everyone else,

     i'm not suppressing MGov's expression-- i'm just giving it a home of its own!!

                   IT'S A JOKE!!!   A JOKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                              ( loosen up!!!! )

al

Dear Everyone,

Thank you all for your sympathy.  But really folks...

Anyways, I changed my mind about the whole "Assembly Leader" thing.  

I am now thinking of owning a bait shop!  You can all come and get free worms!!  They're on me!!

Luke

A 'bait' shop.  I like it - a new name for our gathering, with Luke as leader, of course.

     "The Little Bait Shop"-- it's perfect.  But only for small towns and out in the country.

     When we branch out into the metropolitan areas, it will have to be "The Sushi Bar."

Hi All! :)
    I promised that I would address further the topic of "anger" and "negativity" toward the Assembly on the BB.
    I stated that the answer to the above need is to understand the Christian life as a grace based relationship.  
    It is also important to realize that when we become Christians we do no take on a super-human quality that floods our emotions with overcoming power, or infuses our wills with adamant strength to suppress negative feelings.
  Any description of how grace works in the life of the redeemed will only involve general principles because grace is first and foremost God's miraculous power tailored to each individuals personal need; grace is amazing!
   It works in those that have very small capacity and is often hindered by those who have "greater knowledge" or gifts of the Spirit (I Cor. details this).
  Grace working in us is not a mechanical process, but a process of relationship with God.  There is not a single formula for "living the victorious life."  
   Grace is to the praise of the glory of His grace, not to the praise of the glory of our strong faith.  Grace works in our doubts, fears, troubled hearts, failures, and trials and not by trying to deny we have any of the above; honesty before God, and with myself, is where God's work of grace begins.
   There are religious counterfeits to the work of grace and they take many different forms.  All of these false religious systems seek to cover up, or control the evil heart, and are discovered instantly due to their lack of honesty (they are hypocritical).
 These systems defend the ego of the partipant in the evil system and grace challenges all that they have done to "earn" their position in the system.  It is very difficult for the participant in the evil system to admit they were wrong and to be willing to be instructed in the simple life of a gift based relationship with God.
   I've got to go.  I will continue this thought later.
                                       God Bless,  Mark
   

Thank you to all who are trying to defend me.  Some people need to lighten up!  Can't you take a JOKE? :(

Hi Eulaha and Others! :)
  Eulaha:  The topic kind of got altered from your original humorous title due to some private responses I received re. "taking sides",  and the issue of allowing angry reactions on the BB toward the former Assembly leaders.
  I hope you don't mind my using the opportunity to think about these things.
                   GRACE THAT WORKS Cont.
   In my previous post I was trying to explain my thinking regarding the process of recovery from a merit based relationship with God vs. a gift based relationship, by discussing how grace works in the day to day experience of the believer.  It is always God's grace that works effectually in us, and there is no way to earn the release of God's grace in our life.  There are no tricky-inner-doings to trigger or actualize the power of God in the soul.  Grace for the Christian is not the reward of God for our faithfulness, rather it is the answer to our great lack of godliness.
   There are ways to block the release of God's grace in the Christians life.  Paul tells the Galatians that to mix a merit system with Grace will cause the removal of grace in the life and put the believer under a curse; not loss of salvation, but the misery of living under a standard of performance.
   The Assembly added the above performance teaching to a false use of authority over the individual member.  The standard of performance was raised from, just living up to a Biblical moral code, to extrabiblical rules established by GG.  Most of these involved "attitudnal sins" that scrutinized the motives of the member, which was chiefly concerned with loyalty to GG and his ministry.
   Those who challenged the false use of authority were told their concerns were invalid because they had wrong motives for sharing them.  One brother who just wanted to go to another Church was told the reason he wanted to go was, "you just want to be a star in another ministry".  
   I personally was intimidated for years by this method and accepted the concept of self loathing as a true sign of spirituality.
    Grace seeks to "build up" a person, while the Assembly abuse system sought to control and tear down the individual.  In the Assembly we were always reminded to be nothing for Christ, however GG and his cohorts were always somebody.  Dear wounded pilgrim, God always loved you and you are very special to Him!  
   It is important to recognize these facts, but also important to understand how to make a transition from the old system of abuse into a life of grace, and for us on the BB, how to help those learn their blessed place in Christ.
  This finally brings us to the original topic of how to help one who is struggling with anger, bitterness, and maybe some deep hatred of their former abuser.
   When we tell an individual who is overcome with negative emotions to stop talking about their pain, or that their expression is not appropriate, we are giving the same advice that the abused received from their former manipulators.  Of course, such advice only gives more pain.  To tell the individual, "look to Christ" and your pain will vanish, or "only by forgiving your abuser will you discover release from your negative emotions", puts the person back in the position of trying to manage his soul to earn grace.
   We do indeed need to experience the healing of Christ, but it will involve real wounds, understanding what was hurt, and what needs to be recovered.
   What was damaged was the soul's confidence in God's unconditional love for them as a person.  The most precious possession of a believer was taken away because we were told that we were not worthy of it.  We were told that we were too defective to have God's love and must overcome in order to earn God's acceptance of our person.  When we looked within we knew it was all so true!  How could God love me?!  "Oh, to be like GG and other great servants of God where I could finally merit God's blessing" we would cry!
  In the next post: more about recovering our personal dignity through understanding that the Assembly was very wrong and that the victim of Assembly abuse has a right to be upset about what was taken from them.  (Hint: it will be about anger ;))          God Bless,  Mark  

                    HOW GRACE WORKS Continued.

   I would like to continue my explanation of how grace works in the process of recovery from the Assembly by using a personal example.  In the example I hope to explain how we go through an emotional transition from being dependant on the group/controlling leaders to personal autonomy in Christ.
  When I first left it was because I sought to make a decision re. where I lived without submitting to "counsel".  I was "relieved" of my duties as a leading Bro. for just considering a move without approval.
  At the time, I never would have even considered making an independent decision, but lately God had been showing me that there were contradictions between God and Assembly teaching and practices.  These revelations were an eye opener, but I still held a great fear of independent action from the group approval.  I had great misgivings about leaving and suffered from nightmares and great anxiety over my decision for months after leaving.
   What if it was true that I left God's one true testimony and was destined for outer darkness?!  Maybe I was just making excuses to do my own thing, as was suggested by Assembly leaders?  Or worse yet, maybe I was, as I was also told by Assembly members, a divisive and devilish man who was seeking to divide God's flock?!!  As GG always taught, "it's what you think God is saying that He is really trying to say!"
   I used to have a recurring dream that I was in a gathering with GG and all the leading bros. from the West Coast.  I was in the center and all of them surrounded me while they asked me why I left.  I would wake up in terror and anxiety feeling that I had made a terrible mistake in leaving :'(.
   The last occasion of the dream followed some study that I had been doing regarding false Assembly teaching on grace.  The same bros. appeared around me in a circle that night, and as I began to answer them with what I was learning they all grew silent and cast their eyes down.  I then began to get angry with them and to turn the tables on them by insisiting they answer me why they had offended me so.  As I did so they all disappeared one by one and I never had the dream again. :)
   Recovery of confidence came to me when I was able to shake off the nagging self doubts re. why I left.  When one has habitually submitted to abusive control the shackles of slavery still are emotionally attached.  This may be true even if in my mind I know better.  
  Part of taking off the shackles is to realize that God never intended for them to be attached, and that those that attached them were wrong for doing it.  This process awakes, from the deep dark prison of my self loathing, a revived sense of " I'm mad as heck, and I'm not going to take it anymore!"---  A self assertion of personal rights as a liberated soul in Christ!  As the Jews say of the Holocaust, "never again!"
   The need to find justice in the matter, not only is it for one's own personal autonomy in Christ, but for the sake of those who did the abuse/or unwittingly still continue in the system that encouraged the abusive practices.  The false teaching and practices, if not acknowledged and repented of by the former leaders/followers, will ultimately lead to a very bad end.  Clarity is absolutely essential for spiritual health.
   To courageously stand up and face the former slave master can not be done without some passion.  As I've often shown, Jesus attacked with great emotion "The Whited Sepluchre" pharisaical leadership of the false religous system of His time.   Paul also spoke strongly against those that would bring God's people into bondage.  Paul chided those of God's people who would allow false apostles to slap their face (a metaphor for the false use of authority) and not to stand-up to them.
  What of exhortations to silently sumbit to God in abuse, with the knowledge that God will vindicate?  Should we follow the Assembly interpretation of submission given to Judy that a wife should just silently accept their beating by a Christian husband?  "Sometimes silence is golden, other times it's yellow" (Vernon Mcgee).  It would be worthwhile to understand what the Bible means by submission.  Suffice it to say, there is a big difference between not taking up the sword against Nero and the issue of submission to authority in Christian relationships.
  After this process of removing the emotional shackles by the abused asserting their individual worth in God's eyes, and the former bully is confronted for his evil behavior, the former wounded soul gains a peace and confidence.  If the bully also confesses and apologizes to the offended there can be a most blessed fruit and healing of relationship with my brother.
  The fear of this above process becoming destructive, through the unleashing of negative emotions, should not be a reason to stop the process from continuing.  Can this process short circuit and trap an exmember in a continual cycle of bitterness? Yes, sadly yes, this can happen.  Can we just skip the anger part and get on to the confidence and peace part?  Not likely, though some are more sensitive and have been more deeply hurt, and yet others seem to find their footing quickly.
  The fact that angry souls post their concerns here is proof that they are seeking answers for the pain they feel.  We can help by listening and weeping with those who have been wronged.  We can take their side and help them to see that God takes their side too; that they were wronged and that those that abused them should admit it; that God was not supportive of those who used a false authority to control their lives.
  From this we can then show them who God really is and how very concerned God is for them.  Jesus, the original Wounded Pilgrim, has a very special place in His heart for those abused in a false religous system.  God does not consider the abused one's pain a small matter, nor does He expect us to "just get over it", or put a sunny-side spin on it.
  True comfort, and the resolution of angry emotion, comes when we realize that Jesus understands and takes our side re. our former abuse.  He is not telling us our emotions are unjustified,  that we can't express them, or that he doesn't share in the indignation of a false religous system.  Through that consolation we begin to express His same love for those trapped in the system, whether abuser or abused.  The evil side of anger is replaced with a righteous determination for clarity in the lives of all those effected in the Assembly.
                             God Bless,  Mark
     

  As GG always taught, "it's what you think God is saying that He is really trying to say!"
 
Aha!  Now I know why GG said that.  He was saying that whatever coded message he was hinting at (but was too smart and cowardly to say outright) was what we were supposed to accept as God's will.

How disgusting!

How great to be free from tyranny!  The statue has fallen!

Jack

Mark-
These posts on grace are just what I needed to read today.  

Jack-
I had the same thoughts about the statue falling-

Everyone else,
Keep writing.  Communication is a good thing.

Saved! by grace,
Becky

GG often said that he never listened to anything negative about the brethren (especially the LBs); and to believe the best.  I guess it conveniently closed the door on anyone saying anything negative about himself too.  We were made to feel that we were 'gossipping' if we did say anything negative.

M

Hi M and Others :),
  Yes, the topic of grace probably would be better placed elsewhere, but it kind of just happened as I tried to explain my postion on angry posters, etc..
  Luke has a good heart and I think he has joined in with the joke, as he mentioned his change of career choice to bait shop owner; doesn't sound bad to me--- paid to fish?! ;D
   Thanks for all those encouraging messages re. keeping up with the posting.  I don't think most of us realize what a good thing we have in this BB.  Thanks to Brian for making it available, and for giving us an opportunity to discuss these things.
   Everyone have a glorious remembrance of the ressurection of our Lord Jesus Christ!  By his grace we have been raised in Him!
                             What a blessing!   Mark

In response to Matt's post:

I am not a bully!  Neither do I care what Paul's response was to my original post.  I am not responsible for people's reactions.  Let's take some personal responsibilities for our responses and actions.

I do not feel like I owe anyone an apology.  If you can not take a joke, then that's YOUR problem.

Luke has said a lot of negative things about me, and has never apologized.  Why aren't you entreating him to ask for forgiveness?  Huh?  Stop making Luke the victim people!

Dear Sister Eulaha, Brothers Luke and Paul,

Here is an opportunity to continue this animosity, or to become friends.  The Lord has broken down the barriers that keep us from being reconciled to Himself and to each other.
You're right, sometimes we can't take jokes.  But when we realize that we have offended the other person, we can still ask for forgiveness.  And those of us who can't take jokes may have to lighten up.

Humility is the way to go, here.

M

Oops-- Looks like you forgot to directly address Matt, MGov.

...and he apparently doesn't pick up on mere suggestion.

Oh, well, if at first you don't succeed...

Dear Everyone,

Hopefully, I can do my best to bring some resolution to this confusion.

Dear Eulaha,

First of all, I did not think that all of this was a joke, neither did anyone else.  I doubt that it is one now, but that is just my opinion.  Maybe two of these:  ;), and three of these:   ;D would have cleared it up.  But I can't quite bring myself to believe that this was all a joke.  

You said that you are not responsible for others reactions for what you are saying.  Well, is George?  If what you are saying is true, then each person is responsible for how they receive another's message.  So basically, George is not responsible for anything he taught.

You are telling everyone that taking your posts seriously is THEIR problem.  Many people have stood for you, Eulaha, either in private messaging or public.  They sympathize with you, and know that you have gone through a lot.  I am just going to tell you this.  Many are looking out for you here.  They haven't just said,"That's just Eulala's problem, let her deal with it", but they have tried to talk.  

I agree that you are not a bully.  But it is kind of strange that you can dish out comments, but then when Matt dishes it back, he has no one to go to bat for him, while you do.

I am not exactly sure about where I have hurt you, but I would like to talk privately with you, about what I have done.  I would like to see some resolution between all of us.

Dear MGov,

I totally agree with you.  I did not know that there was any animosity between us, but I plan to clear it up.  Thanks again.


In Closing,

We have all been part of this assembly.  We have all been hurt in some way by all that has been transpired.  But in light of all of this, I am asking us all to do something.  Let us lay the assumptions aside, all the fears, the suspecting the worse of everyone else, the indifference, the fighting.  I have been a purpretrator of all of these things, but I suggest that we get things right with each other.

I AM NOT GOING TO BE THE NEXT ASSEMBLY LEADER, FOLKS.
 ;D  ;D  I don't think that this started out as a joke, but everytime I need a good laugh, either I go rent a Comedy, or I read this thread.   ;D  IT IS HILARIOUS.  I am just going on with life, folks.  I like long walks on the beach and a good book on a rainy day.  Just kidding.  The nearest beach to me is probably 500 miles.  

Matt is right.  No one has ever tried to make me a victim, and I will not except it, even if anyone succeeded in doing so.  I have been hurt before, by tall people, short people, fat people, skinny people, dark people, light people, and everything else under the sun.  But I am not making the clear distinction that it was the assembly.  I AM SAYING THAT PEOPLE IN GENERAL, HURT OTHER PEOPLE.  It is just part of the fall.  But as we walk by grace, we no longer have to do it.  I have enjoyed my time here, immensely.  God Bless.

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson

Dear Luke :)
  Your last post shows a maturity beyond your years and is a good example to some of us old folks.
   A bad lesson that some of us picked up from our Assembly years (or elsewhere) is a lack of care with the feelings of others.  Chief among this lack of sensitivity is the judgment of others motives.  We cross a line when we tell others "why" they do what they do, or "why" they say what they say.  Only God knows our motives and only he can change them.
  Luke has shared some strong differences with those on the BB, but that is not a reason to put him down as a person.  I, as a moderator, have failed at my task by not speaking up sooner and it took Luke's post to bring me around.  The reason I failed was, as I described above, I had determined what Luke was all about.  I figured that his real motives were to support GG and verbally attack those who had problems with him.  I felt like I needed to support those who were victimized by these "attacks".
  While passionate debate over issues is important we need to be tolerant of those with other views ( I know, a very politically correct phrase these days).  We can't see a sinister plot behind the post of everyone that has a view that is counter to our understanding of the Assembly.  Now, I will contend most earnestly for the Faith, or against those that would defend GG's teaching/practices, if the occasion arises, but to ascribe motive to the poster is not right.
  I am not less sensitive to the needs of those, like Eulaha, who has suffered greatly at the hands of the Assembly, but would ask all of us to try to be more sensitive to those who do not see things the way we do.  It is certain that our arguments are more persuasive if we argue our points with politeness.
   Finally, God loves even the unrepentant Assembly abuser and would like to bring them to reconciliation with Himself.  We must be clear with those who are in the above position that they are very wrong, but our expectation should always be for their full recovery.  Would it not be wonderful if GG confessed his sin, truly repented, and came on the BB and apologized?!  I know, this may sound like a departure from my previous stance re. forgiveness of GG and anger, etc., but it really is not.  At another time and place I will explain.
   Thank you Luke for your post and your participation on the BB.  May God richly bless you and all of us,  Mark

     (part 1 of 2)


My dear Brothers and Sisters,

     Don't you just love this thread?!  Its title may be mysterious to the uninitiated, but those who read it regularly know that it may lead us almost anywhere:  It's good for some chuckles at times, and it can also be mighty edifying.

     Being grateful for Luke's, Mark's and Matt's latest contributions, i hope that i may continue in their positive direction with some personal thoughts regarding our attitudes about the motives of others.  My conclusions are far from being set in stone, but i have had over 20 years since leaving the assembly to arrive at them.
     
     As a prelude to my comments, i will ask you to read and open your heart to Psalm 139.  Take your time;  there is no rush.  When you are ready, we will continue...

     Psalm 139, verse four, says in part, "I will praise thee;  for I am fearfully and wonderfully made..."  Do you think of yourself as wonderful?  ...and what about your neighbor:  do you think of him or her as wonderful?  Well, you certainly can, because the word of God says that is how we are made.
     What is so wonderful about us?  The answer would take several books, but for this moment's purpose, let me emphasize our individuality.  There is absolutely no one on earth like you.  You are utterly unique.  Nobody else has ever, could have ever, shared your perspective on life, because no one else has your genetic makeup, your precise environment, your physical, mental and emotional history.  Even identical siblings, reared by the same parents, have innumerable differences.
     That is part of the reason it is folly to suppose that we understand the motives of another person.  Even the redeemed of the Lord, our fellow saints, are virtual strangers to us, although we may have fellowshipped together for years, and be known to have much in common.  "...for the Lord seeth not as man seeth;  for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart." I Samuel 16:7  "And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know." I Corinthians 8:2  "For we know in part... For now we see through a glass, darkly... but then shall I know even as I also am known." I Corinthians 13:9,12  
     It is vital that we remember that we see only what shows, and not the hearts of others;  that our knowledge is only partial and limited.  We DARE NOT speak for another.  But instead, we have access to the throne of grace:  that we may intercede in prayer.
     "But, brother al," you may protest, "praying isn't nearly as good a way to let off steam and feel better as criticizing and arguing."  If that's what you think, the first thing you need to pray is, "Lord, teach me to pray!"

     (continued...)

     (...continued / Part 2 of 2)


     What i have discovered about myself, which may or may not apply to you, is that when i become very upset with someone else, it is usually because something in that person's demeanor reminds me (consciously or subconsciously) of something i can't tolerate in myself.  For example, there are a couple of people who post on this board whose manner of delivery sets me on edge.  If i were to state things the way they do, i would be behaving arrogantly and pompously.  Because of my feelings, i have sometimes caused these saints some grief (for which i have since made amends).
     The reason i feel as i do is that i am not learned enough to speak with the authority that they manifest.  For me to do so would be presumptuous.  i resent that i am not as excellent a student and scholar as they-- in short, i am jealous of them.  Oddly, God does not justify my jealousy.  Well, then, i just have to confess my problem, get over it, and realize that for someone who actually HAS that degree of knowledge, their attitudes may be quite proper (how would i know?).
     First and foremost, i must determine what God expects of ME, and i find there are ample issues in my life that need resolution, that i have no need to look at others for "projects" on which to work.  Neither have i found a scriptural "commission" to go out and trouble-shoot the lives of God's people.  There is, of course, a lot we do that influences the lives of others, but if God is in it, it is generally of an upbuilding nature.

     What, then, to do when i feel that others are "attacking" me?  Well, i do what any sibling would do:  i tell my Father.  He can and will sort it out, if we will allow it.  i may feel hurt, but i don't complain as i used to.  You see, i discovered that sometimes there actually IS something in my life that needs a little attention.  i may pretend that i have it all together, but i'm not fooling God, and often everyone else sees through my facade, too.
     That last concept is scary to some people, which is why we started out with Psalm 139.  Look at it again.  See that it begins with how thoroughly the Lord knows us through and through.  There is nothing, and nowhere, we can hide from him and yet, seeing us in all our imperfection he has loved us, and continues to love us, without end.  And the Psalm concludes with a prayer to God:  Search me and know my heart:  try me and know my thoughts:  cleanse me of wickedness and lead me forevermore.
     
     This kind of message sometimes gets me an angry "Quit telling everybody what to do!" response.  But, if you'll be honest with yourself, you'll know that is not what's happening.  We speak what is in our hearts (Matthew 12:34-35, Luke 6:45).  If we are not pleased with what we find ourselves saying, our recourse is with the Lord.  If we take exception to what is being said to us, our recourse is with the Lord.
     "What shall we then say to these things?  If God be for us, who can be against us?  He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?  Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect?  It is God that justifieth."
Romans 8:31-33
     We are in good hands, receiving the best of care.  Let's learn to enjoy it.

al Hartman

     

Hi Everyone! :)
  I was deeply moved by your post Matt and anything but bored!  I thought that I pretty much had the Assembly thing figured out and neatly packaged.  Had it not been for Luke and Matt posting here I would have continued in my convienent mode of thinking.  For this I am very grateful and recognize God's entreaty to me in it.
  I Cor. 8 talks about those that have knowledge, but are puffed up with it, and in the chapter we are warned that the priority is to love one another.  As AL shared, love lifts up our brother/sister.  Love wins (persuades) the offended soul and can be like the proverbial coals of fire on our conscience; I know it has done this work on me.  Love is everything when it comes to the excercise of our gifts toward one another; these gifts are not for ourselves. Finally, love is kind and not irritable.
  I will be on the road for the week, and will continue to think on these blessed thoughts in the hope that God will use them to further widen my perspective and change my heart.
   Again, if it were not for the posting of Luke and Matt I would have merrily continued on in my distorted view.  Both of these posts were a one-two punch to my heart.  I need to put my thoughts in perspective, and hopefully by next weekend I will be able to do that.
  Our recent conversation is solid proof that God can use these forums in a most wonderful way to help us in our understanding and expression of the Christian life.  It is also proof that those that we "think" are obstacles on that path are actually more necessary to the body of Christ.
                               God sure is blessing us!   Mark

 

Amen Mark.
 I was encouraged and touched (and not bored) by the recent postings of Matt, Luke, Al, and MarkC.
 I think we should chip in and buy Mark C a laptop so that he can 'globally' moderate this BB on the road????

When we all get to heaven, what a day of rejoicing that will be...

Love and God bless,
M

Most of you people who contribute on this website need to find other things to do in your spare time.  You are putting way too much focus on this bulletin board.  I check this thing once a week (on a rare occasion twice).

Matt- 18 is no longer a teenager.  It is considered an age when these young adults can make decisions on their own.  Stop sticking up for Luke.  It's really none of your business anyway...

I will not apologize, so please don't waste your time trying to convince me otherwise.  This bulleting board is starting to remind me of my Assembly days.  Maybe I should do as Brent and take a six week break from all of this...

Ihr wißt [doch], meine geliebten Brüder: Jeder Mensch sei schnell zum Hören, langsam zum Reden, langsam zum Zorn.  Denn eines Mannes Zorn wirkt nicht Gottes Gerechtigkeit.

Huh????  We need an interpreter.  I don't have one of those dictionaries, whatever it is.

M

It's James 1:19-20 in German.

I copied it from (http://theonlinebible.com/).

They have the Bible available in an amazing variety of languages.  There are other web sites that have even more languages.

Hello Everyone

My six weeks aren't up yet, so this isn't really a post.

Glad to see you here Matt!  How's Bible study coming along?

Brent

Ok,
Thank you everyone for your private messages and your emails. I have erased all my posts from this thread. I'm sorry Eulaha, really that out of one corner of my mouth I ask for forgiveness and out of the other corner I blasted you. It was not right of me. I'm not asking you to apologize or to explain yourself, I just want to let go of all this. Thanks for your understanding.
- Matt
P.s. Brent, I go to Dave Lee's Tuesday night Bible study and it's going well, thanks for asking.

P.s.s. My dad used to sing a song to me...i think it's old and he used my name in it "Matt started a joke, which started the whole world crying." I didn't start this joke, but I think I did make a lot of people cry on the inside.

Everyone,

     Please read the new thread "Sticks and Stones..."

Gob bless all here,
al Hartman

Eulaha et al(pun intended) (this is a joke)

A few things I have learned from this thread:

Luke is not going to be a future assembly leader.
Matt's a good sport after all (to the tune of it's a small world)
Al has a keen sense of humor
Mark C does not use his laptop on the road.
Eulaha is not going to apologize.
Verne does not suffer from hippopotomonstrosequipedaliophobia (or was that on another thread).
Brent thought it was 'groundhog day' and poked his head out of hibernation before his 6 weeks were done.
and it's not over till the fat lady sings. (or did that already happen while I was offline).

Anything else.... al ??

M

MGov - You have a keen sense of humor yourself! ;D

Thanks, Kimberley.  I'll take that as a compliment.  It's probably the 'age' thing.

M

I've read this board for so long, but I can no longer keep quiet:
Eulaha:
Hi sweetie! You don't know me, but I feel like I know you. I was not involved in this cult and therefore am not a primary source of information. I did have a close friend involved and when she told me about the horrors she suffered at the hands of some of the assembly members, I knew I had to do a little more research into this. You are a strong woman, Eulaha. I've been keeping track of this thread especially and I want you to know that you have retained grace and dignity in your responses to some of the more hateful posters. You are right, it does appear that people are taking Luke's side. You are above that, however. He is simply not as strong as you and needs the extra support..

MGOV, MarkC, Al:
I can't believe some of your posts lately. You completely ignore that Eulaha is hurting! It doesn't  mean a thing to you that Eulaha is hurting and that she is being harrassed by Luke and Matt.  Eulaha had an excellent reason for starting this thread. She felt that Luke was holding on to some old quirky assembly beliefs and she started this thread solely to set that straight. The assembly is a scary thing, it must not be defended at any costs. That's exactly what Matt and Luke were doing on this thread and especially Matt was using intimidation to force Eulaha to see his point. He and Luke cannot possibly understand what Eulaha is going through: women were treated much worse in the assembly. They don't even know what they are talking about; they are a bunch of confused kids who think it's funny to torment this poor woman.

Luke and Matt:
Matt, I read your posts before you deleted them. Your apology must mean nothing to Eulaha, and it means nothing to me. It was the most  half-hearted attempt at an apology that i have every laid eyes on. And  you dare to think she should apologize? You two boys would do the world a favor if you just quietly slippped away and killed yourselves.

EVERYONE! STOP BEING AGAINST THE VICTIM! I don't think any males should respond to this post because none of them will understand the cruelties and torments that the women of this church suffered.  

Laurie,

Thank you for saying what I could not say.  You are a blessing to me!

Eulaha

I'm not a male, so I will respond.

First of all, please understand that this is NOT about taking sides, but about finding healing for ALL.

Eulaha, I thought you'd understand about the joke.
However, please forgive me if I have contributed in any way to the hurt you have suffered.

Laurie, I don't know who you are, but you have no right to say what you did to Matt and Luke, especially the last sentence(I can't even bring myself to quote it).

The assembly system has hurt many. Those who have been hurt by it have the opportunity to find healing from the Lord, without having to destroy others who do not see eye to eye with you.  You do not need to become that which you despised in the system.

Eulaha, I would like to continue this communication on friendlier terms with you.

M

Having been a woman in the assembly for 27 years can I say with some authority that it is time to stop acting like victims?

Christ, the great Healer, is more than able to heal us of our assembly victimization/suffering.

Pitting the men against the women (ie. Luke vs. Eulala) seems pretty silly.  

Eulaha, don't be discouraged by this woman's insensitive approach. She may have had a completely different experience than you. You are justified in feeling hurt and more compassion needs to be shown on you from Luke, MGov, Pat Mathews, Matt, Al, and MarkC.

I fail to see how encouraging anyone to stop acting like a victim is insensitive.  We can acknowledge someone's hurt and be compasssionate towards them  and still encourage them to get on with life and not let the past determine the future...in fact, that is much more healthy than constantly feeling sorry for their victimization or commiserating with their misery.

God wants to do new things in our lives, and I'm sure Eulaha realizes and appreciates that as much as the rest of us.

If my post encouraged you in anyway, sister, Praise God. You don't have to listen to people like Pat Mathews. One aspect of a cult is that the leaders often try to minimize the damage caused. As a woman who has been involved for 27 years, I'm sure Pat had some sort of authority over the other women. Don't be fooled into thinking that what happened to you was "No big deal" or that it's wrong to think of yourself as a victim.

Matt and Luke:
I hold to everything I've said. You two boys have recklessly hurt Eulaha. Matt, you have tried your best to frighten Eulaha into submission. You two boys don't realize the damage you could have done. You two really should kill yourselves before you cause someone else too.

Eulaha,

I want you to know that I am not against you, but for you 100%.  I am not pro-anyone, but pro for finding the truth and healing for ALL.

M

Laurie,
Never did I say that what happened to Eulaha was "no big deal" or "that it's wrong to think of " herself as a victim.  You need to be careful...if you read my post you will see that I am not saying that at all. Also, If you read my other posts on this board you will also see a hint of my past history and will realize that my family was victimized terribly. I could write post after post about being victimized, believe me. So, please, be careful passing judgment on someone you don't even know.  
Your comment to Luke and Matt about killing themselves is in such poor taste that I'm stunned. I hope Brian is too.

Laurie and Eulaha:
oh my GOODNESS! Eulaha, rejoice! Finally, someone even dumber than you has reared their ugly head! Laurie, you can say whatever you want to me or about me, but I can't have you saying anything bad about MGov or Luke. You don't even know what you're talking about, you said yourself you weren't a member of an assembly. It's a classic example of diarrhea of the mouth.
Eulaha, you are NO victim. That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard in my entire life. I don't know what your shrinks are telling you, but sounds like they're doing more damage than good. You know, I really wanted to leave you alone, but when you told Laurie that she was a blessing to you because of that post...the same post where she said she wanted Luke and me to kill ourselves, I see that I just can't get away from you, now can I? I'm going to go ahead and repeat it all, Eulaha. You are the most selfish, egotistical, self-centered jerk. Thank you for showing the board how dumb you are and I hope you praise God that someone else (this Laurie character) has proven herself to be even dumber than you!

And, yes, I still think that you should have your shrinks treat you for narcissism and paranoia rather than for your "pain and suffering" from the people who really loved you in the assembly.
- Matt

"Thanks for joining us friends for another night of
the AWF, the Assembly Wrestling Federation. It's
been an exciting evening, with Ex-Assembly members
and non-members alike battling it out here in our forum.
It's been a no holds barred flailing of insults, accusations
and pride like I've never seen. With Eulaha and Laurie on one side of our tag team competition, and Matt and Luke on the other side. Two members of our audience, Al and
Mark C. tried to intercede in the ring in an attempt to calm these wrestlers down, but they were both thrown from the ring violently. The wrestlers are on break now, but it remains to be seen just how much damage they can inflcit on one another once this bout resumes!! Wooo Doggy!!!
What a fight!!!"  ;D ;D ;D

I just wanted to quote this so it doesn't get deleted next time Matt decides to apologize.  Since he has said stuff like this 3 times, only to delete it, I think it is important that we not erase it this time.

I'm talking to all of you out there.  This is really embarrassing.  Most of us are Christians.  This type of talk is NOT bringing glory and honor to Jesus Christ.  The one's doing the most abusive talking are the most guilty.  God figure out who that is, and it's NOT Pat Mathews!

What have we learned?  
Men can't understand women.  

Someone in their late 20's can't say anything to someone 10 years younger.  

I can insult people in the basest, most juvenile way, and then "apologize," and then re-insult them, and then "apologize," and then delete my posts (as if that erases what I said) and then insult them all over again!

Did you guys learn all this from the Assembly, or from the public schools or what?

back to lurking.

Lurker:
hahahahahaha...I'm glad it's posted twice now! Twice the effect. I'm not going to apologize to Eulaha anyway, so it doesn't matter. I never said anything bad about Pat Mathews. Anyway, when you get enough guts to tell me who you are, maybe I will start taking your posts seriously. For the meantime, thanks for the laugh!
- Matt

Yes, please lurk away. You know, just about everyone on this thread encouraged me to delete my posts. I believe I was following Godly counsel, and for you to say that I shouldn't have deleted them shows that you are trying to play God here. I'll tell you what I did learn at the assembly.  I learned how to love other people, I learned how to be loved. I have not experienced this kind of hatred except from people who have left the assembly (aka Eulaha). And I'm sorry you couldn't take anything away from this thread except negative things. It's a little bit like leaving the assembly - you only remember the bad things! How quickly you forget all the times people have helped you and loved you. The first thing that springs to mind is how they've wronged you. They might have wronged you say 5 times, and loved you and served you 300 times, and sure as rain, the first 5 things they'll think about are the times those 5 times they've been wronged.
The assembly is not as bad as anyone wants it to be! And Eulaha is not the victim that she wants to be! And you are NOT God, Lurker.

Verne,
the contempt of outside readers is justified by some of what you're reading here? You think a person is justified in saying that someone should kill themselves just because 2 people are in petty name-calling fight (Eulaha and me). Another ridiculous post thanks to Verne on this already ridiculous thread. Thanks for your contribution!

Joe:
While I thought your post was funny at first, I have to disagree that Luke and I are on the same side. He in no way has indicated that and he and I do not collaborate what we are writing on the board. I did disagree with Laurie about Luke killing himself. I did disagree with how she was disrespectful to Mgov. I'm not on their side (they don't have sides, ask them), but I don't like them to be disrespected.

Dear Everyone,

Well, I am writing this from my trusty lap top on the top of the St. Louis Arch.  I went up to the top, pounded out on of the windows, threw my trusty rope ladder to the top and climbed up.  I was already to do a swan dive, when suddenly, I heard a voice telling me not to do it.  So I am just sitting up here, and enjoying the weather.  

BUT SERIOUSLY,

As Matt said I do not like to be put on teams, I do not like being on sides.  But I will tell you one side I am on.  I am on the Lord's side, and all of those here that are Christians, and wish to follow Christ in their lives.  THAT is the only side that I'm on.  

Frankly, I don't even know what we are talking about here.  We are trying so hard to get at each other that we've totally lost sight of what ever we were discussing in the first place(and from what I can see from the topic heading, it wasn't too wholesome  ;D).  It is time to wake up and smell the coffee, as I heard one wise person say.  As Pat so eloquently hinted at, it is time we all move on with our lives.  This conversation has not gotten us anywhere.  Am I right?  

I also agree with Matt in the sense where he said about looking over all of the help that the assembly has been to just pinpoint and expound on every time we've been wronged.  It will happen anywhere you decide to go, folks.  I just pray that when it does, you will be found built on that Solid Rock that cannot be moved.  But that is what it comes down to, doesn't it?  Where is our foundation?  I ask that we all look at these situations more objectively and definitely more spiritually.  If you want to see healing, it is time that we come together in the power that God provides.  There is hope yet for tomorrow!!  Everyone, let's just keep our eyes on Him and if you decide to go at it again, call this thread a different name, like "Arguments"  or something like that.   ;D

As I said before, I am not on just anyone's side here, but I am on everyone's as MGov said.  It is time that we learn to stop trying to be lone rangers or just hurt people but Christ-empowered sons and daughters of God, who are running the race, by grace!  God Bless.  

If any of you have any objections or would like to talk, my PM is right here, as well as e-mail.  

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson

On that post, Verne, you chose to interfere with my converation with BlueJay. You totally twisted my intentions around on that thread and I'm not sure why you are bringing it up here.
Castration is hardly synonymous with suicide, by the way.

Luke and Matt---

I know neither of you is really on one side or the
other. I was just making an attempt to lighten
things up a bit. When it gets down to name-calling
it's gone a little to far in my opinion.

God bless you both.  -Joe

It's ok, Joe. Take care and Lord bless.

Vernejackasscarty,
I think that is kind of messed up that you dredged up some old dispute we had from almost a month ago - one that I apologized for more than once. If there is one problem i had with some saints in the assembly, it was their uncanny ability to remember every screw-up and throw it back in your face much later. I'm not saying, by the way, that that means the assembly was bad. I'm just saying, Verne, that maybe you are more affected by the assembly than YOU think.

Verne,

I disagree with your method of exhortation.

M

It looks like a number of us are suffering from 'foot in mouth disease'.  Only in this case, when we open our mouths to take one foot out, we very quickly put the other one in.

The apostle Peter suffered from this condition, but in the end, 2 of his epistles are recorded in the Word for our edification.

So there's hope for all of us, but whose going to take the first step and give up on disputing. The older, or the younger; the male or the female; the black or the white(sorry if this sounds racist, it is not intended to be); the assemblyite or the ex-assemblyite ... and whatever other disputes pairs there are on this thread.  One thing is for sure,  Luke is rejoicing anyway, and he has become very famous.

That's all for now,
M

Verne, welcome to Scumville, CaLi. Population: 3. This last census has listed the residents (in alphabetical order) as: Verne Carty, Eulaha Long, Matt Peeling. So now you are down here with me too! Glad to have you here neighbor!

The moderators: Brian, Brent, Al, MarkC. See if you can match the name to the quotation.

"Email Luke & ask him what he has learned from Verne."

"Verne Carty is a brother of class and grace"
 
"Verne is probably 40+(I don't really know)  The lord (in His word) desires you to be respectful."
 
"i honestly think you have misinterpreted verne's posts"
 
"he is honorable"

This is the man that you have praised? This is the man to whom I should turn for instruction? This is the man with "class, grace, honor"? The man who commands respect?! What kind of moderators are you? Well there's no "misinterpreting" his posts now. It's quite clear what Mr. Carty thinks of me, sirs.

I don't claim to be a perfect brother. I know that I'm not glorifying the Lord on this board. But to say that I'm similar to George Geftakys? No, sir - that's ridiculous. Too bad you aren't here to say these things to my face, Carty, or I'd bust out a can of whoop ass on ya. Now why don't you turn your attention to the real psychos (Laurie and Eulaha) and stop trying to get...hmm...what's the word that you used Brent? "fray"? Why don't you stop trying to get in a fray with me? (And, no, Brent, I don't feel that I tried to get him in a fray)

Well if it's advice coming from you, sir, I'll remember that it will behoove me to do the exact opposite. You want something out of me and then do exactly what you don't want me to do. Maybe you are more like George? hmmm? I

I KNOW THAT I'M NOT GLORIFYING THE LORD ON THIS BOARD. Does that answer your question, Verne? Are you glorifying Him with all of your posts?

Help? Verne, you're not trying to help me, you're trying to agitate me. You're unbelievable, Verne. You've been known to get in fights on this board, I just wish you'd do it with things that directly involve you.

Am I to believe what I am reading?! You did the exact same thing I did (I called Eulaha and Laurie psycho, you call me psycho) and then get in tit for tat exchange with me...and you want ME to acknowledge wrong doing? Moderators, please do not ever tell me again that this is a "respectable" man of "class, grace, honor." Don't ruin your credibility as moderators.

Probably because I see through the hypocrisy, Verne. You've ruined your credibilty already. Time for you to step down and let another brother share his thoughts on this thread.

No, but I can't trust anything you say because you are steeped in hypocrisy. You condemn me for doing something and then do it yourself. I can't imagine you are doing all of this out of concern for anyone in particular or out of service for Him. This is a matter of pride with you. I don't see you as some of the brothers have described you. I don't see you as someone mature. Even I can tell that you are not ready to exhort someone. Therefore, as I don't view you as an authoritative source, any continued dialog with me on this thread will be your admission that you are here to fight as a matter of pride with me. I will humor you, as I can sense that you want to fight. But I'm going to bed so it will have to wait until tomorrow. Good night everyone, Lord bless.

Matt says:

And then, in the next breath...

??? ???

Seriously, I mean this.  This is really embarrasing.  It is obvious to everyone that people from the Assembly have some real problems, some more than others.  The fact that Matt still goes to an Assembly bible study, and feels that he learned "real love" there only proves my point.

That the rest of you were foolish enough to stay there for decades :o reinforces this fact.

May I make an observation?

I'll wager that most people here recognize that Matt needs some serious help.  I also think that Matt can get some help on this board, and especially on the other website, where all the articles are.  However, no one is going to get any help until we stop this foolishness.

My suggestion is to just stop responding to this nonsense.  If someone posts that a person is a "self centered jerk," as has been done, or that another is psychotic, just ignore it.  

Most normal people would sit up and take notice if someone calls them psychotic, or self centered.  However, on this board, the dysfunctional members, instead of checking themselves, only continue to rant!  I am speaking specifically to those who are doing the talking.  

Matt, you amaze me, and although I pity you, and pray for your salvation, I am not going to speak kindly to you for the words you put here.  You are wrong, especially lately.  I prophecy that if you display this kind of behavior in the "real" world, you will have great difficulty, in the work place, and especially if you should ever have a family.  This just isn't normal, polite, or civil dialogue, let alone Christian dialogue.  Don't yield your members to this unrighteousness any longer.  

Verne, mostly you just quote Matt, but by trying to reason with this young man, you are only provoking him to more folly.  You have not stooped anywhere near to Matt's level, and anyone who has been on this board for a few months knows that you never say things like you have said until the offense becomes very grievous indeed.  Notwithstanding,  Matt doesn't deserve your entreaty.  He does deserve to be warned regarding his speech, which I think has been done repeatedly.  Reject a divisive man after the first or second admonition.

Matt, can you please share you testimony with us?  Tell us how you came to Christ, and how you received the gospel of God's grace?

perhaps not luking so much.....

Lurker:
The fact that Matt still goes to an Assembly Bible study? There is no assembly still meeting within a 2 hr radius of me. Dave Lee and Ken Willadsen (FORMER assemblyites of the San Diego assembly) hold the Bible Study, but they don't go to any assembly anymore. Almost everyone at that Bible Study goes to a different church. If you must know, yes, the format is still typical of an assembly Bible study. Chapter summaries, singing from Hymns and Spiritual Songs, open prayer, etc. But none of those things are wrong or indicative of any wrong-doings of the assembly.

Point 2:
I think you need to really examine what salvation is. It's the acceptance of grace, it's the repentance of sin. It is NOT perfect behavior. If someone gets involved in a fight...even something much worse than this thread...does that mean he is no longer saved?

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." Ro 1:16

"For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Ro 10:10

" For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men" Tit 2:11

It is by grace, brother, that we are saved. It's not by works or by behavior. Nothing we can do can get us saved. HE did everything for us. Maybe you are trapped in some kind of doctrine that emphasizes works as a basis of salvation? I don't need you to speak "kind words" to me, by the way. You can tell me anything you want.
- Matt

Matt, from reading your posts, you prove to be a very immature person.  I hope you grow up one day.  Name-calling is so pre-school-ish.  I have never called you any names, why are you calling me dumb?  Actually I am a college graduate and quite intelligent.

Wow, I also read I'm from Scumville and that I'm a psycho.  Wow Matt.  Seems like you're the immature one-again.  I suggest you take some time from this bulletin board and go to "Bulletin Board Anger Management" classes.  You are either really bored or you're in some serious need of psychological help.

Hey Laurie, how are you?  The next time little Matt tries to offend you, tell him "I'm rubber and you're glue.  What you say bounes off of me and sticks to you!"!  He seems to enjoy dealing with people in a childing manner;why not charge him with this childish saying! ;D

Verne, Matt is not worth arguing over.  He is making you upset, and I see where you're coming from.  You are a good person.  Keep a smile on your face and thank God everyday for the maturity and clarity of mind that God has given you.  You don't have to responds to the likes of people who want to argue. ;)

Verne, I hope you will not mind me quoting this Private Message. It's of vital importance though that this not be internalized.

I agree with you Eulaha. People, don't make the same mistake as when Luke attacked Brent. Give Verne support, he is on God's side and he is here to promote healing. He has sound clarity of mind and he is here to promote justice.

Matt and Luke: Yes, the correct term for what I told you two boys to do is called "hyperbole." Stop hurting other people, especially women. Matt, you frighten me because you appear to defend the assembly system. You've been brainwashed and can't extricate yourself from this cult. You two boys need counseling to help you sort out these harmful beliefs you have. It's very hard to see you two boys suffering: so young and yet forced to hurt other people like Eulaha for your beliefs. Eulaha has never been anything but kind to both you boys. And you treated her very cruelly. Is it because she is a woman and in your assembly mindset, you think you need to intimidate her into a "submissive woman."?

Verne, I hope you will not mind me quoting this Private Message. It's of vital importance though that this not be internalized.

I agree with you Eulaha. People, don't make the same mistake as when Luke attacked Brent. Give Verne support, he is on God's side and he is here to promote healing. He has sound clarity of mind and he is here to promote justice.

Matt and Luke: Yes, the correct term for what I told you two boys to do is called "hyperbole." Stop hurting other people, especially women. Matt, you frighten me because you appear to defend the assembly system. You've been brainwashed and can't extricate yourself from this cult. You two boys need counseling to help you sort out these harmful beliefs you have. It's very hard to see you two boys suffering: so young and yet forced to hurt other people like Eulaha for your beliefs. Eulaha has never been anything but kind to both you boys. And you treated her very cruelly. Is it because she is a woman and in your assembly mindset, you think you need to intimidate her into a "submissive woman."?

OK, help me out here.  I've not been to an Assembly bible study for years, but when I went, they had 2 Hymns, from the book you mention, a prayer in between the hymns, announcements, and then they read the chapter.

Then a person led the Chapter summary time, and then one of the leaders taught from the chapter.  They always had an outline on the board that had a title, and 3 points, which they called a "breakdown."

Is this what you mean by "Assembly format?"

This quote is not biblical but....

If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck....

What is it, a Zebra?

Correct me if I'm wrong.  This thread is a thread againt anyone who shows any sympathy towards the 'assembly'.  When MarkC concluded that he needed to re-consider his thinking on being unsympathethic to those still sympathetic to the 'assembly', all of a sudden Laurie posted something that got the whole thing rolling again.

This is not about Matt or Luke, but about running down anyone whole holds any sympathy to 'assembly' doctrine.

Blast me with your posts, if you wish. OR get before the Lord and search your hearts.


I'm sure I read somewhere "current assembly members welcome, we would like to hear your perspective".

M

This attitude communicates to me that Brent is not able to take care of himself, and therefore needs a host of BB posters to defend him.
It also communicates to me that you are starting to put Brent on a pedestal, that he definitely does not want to be on.  This is dangerous;  look where it got us with GG.

M

I'm not quite sure of the purpose of this post. Do you like to hear (see) yourself talk? I think for a Bible Study to be an assembly Bible Study, at least one person there has to be in a fellowship at an assembly. Chapter summaries are an excellent way, by the way, to get in-depth into the Word and to communicate to others how the Lord spoke to you in that particular chapter. Is that a crime?

Oh my GOODNESS! Will my sides ever stop hurting from the uncontrollable laughter that your witty joke created? Please, submit that joke to NBC. I'd be very surprised if they didn't give you your own comedy series.



Yes, because we all know that Verne does not like to argue.

Eulaha, you claim to be so intelligent on one of your posts. Please, quite hiding it from this board! Thanks!

Dear Friends,

Why do we continue to do this?  We keep making private arguments PUBLIC instead of talking this out with just each other.  Do you have something to prove to the readers by your supposed skill at debate?  I have told people that if they have had a problem with what I have said, then they should simply write me and tell about it.  Instead, what we have here is about four pages of just a couple of people who are trying to decide who is mean and who is not, who needs mental help and who does not.  This is quite sad.  I have tried to tell people my place in this argument, but it seems that I would make more progress if I were to smash my head into random walls around my house.  

I hope to clear the air.  IF YOU WILL ALLOW ME, I would like to say a few words.  Please read, and maybe you will be able to understand me more.  

Dear Eulaha,

I have written you a few times, but you have never written me back.  Why is this?  I have tried to make things right, but it seems that you have already made up your mind about me.  Matt apologized before.  What was your response?  You didn't forgive him or anything.  Instead, you told him to stop sticking up for me and that you would not apologize for anything you've said.  Do you think everyone hates you here?  Well, seeing that I can only speak for myself, I say that I don't hate you.  But the way you let Matt as well as myself swing in the wind after we desired to make amends, shows me that you are not showing love.  If I hated you, I wouldn't tell you that.  If I hated you, I would probably let you just swing in the wind.  But I haven't.  And neither has anyone else.  So I ask you to reconsider your position on how you see me.  That is all I can say.

Dear Laurie,

I do not know you, neither does anyone else from my knowledge.  I ask you to not pass judgment on how you see me or how you perceive me to be.  If you have a personal argument with me, my PM and e-mail are right here whenever you need them.  But if you are just going to talk about me on this forum, and not talk to me in private, then we can't come to any kind of a consensus.  You said that you are scared of Matt simply because he is defending the Geftakys system.  How would you know what the system is like if you have never been there?  Can a person describe the Grand Canyon to you and you would be satisfied?  Besides, I disagree with you that Eulaha has just always been nice to us.  She started this whole thread, remember?  I am trying to intimidate her into being a "submissive woman"?  Where on this forum have I ever tried to do that?  I think that you are reading a little too much into my posts.  But if you would like, I would enjoy talking about them anytime.  Just on a personal basis such as PM or e-mail.  Meaning, without an audience.

Dear Verne,

Would you stop bringing up my past situations to try and prove your points?  This is your own battle and I wish to be removed.  By the way, me attacking Brent was a while ago, and everything has been cleared up, so if you please, leave it alone.  And stop calling all these people stupid for not stepping in to defend Brent from me.  Maybe, they agreed with some of the things I had to say.  Or maybe, they felt that maybe getting involved would only complicate things.  As it has here.  Write me, brother.

Dear Matt,

This arguing is getting us nowhere.  I ask you to stop calling names and if you want to talk to someone personally, than do it PERSONALLY.  You are being rude many of these people and that is not honoring to the Lord. Please don't let us see all of this fighting when there's other things that could be talked about and discussed.  Keep the peace.  

In Closing,

I know I've made mistakes in what I've said to people.  As has many others.  But you see, when we start TALKING to each other, just one on one, that's how we can get things cleared up instead of just making personal arguments public.  

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson

Dear Friends,

Here's a story that has been encouraging to my heart, and where I hope to see this thread become in the future.

Once upon a time two brothers who lived on adjoining farms fell into conflict. It was the first serious rift in 40 years of farming side by side, sharing machinery, and trading labor and goods as needed without a conflict. Then the long collaboration fell apart. It began with a small misunderstanding and it grew into a major difference, and finally it exploded into an exchange of bitter words followed by weeks of silence.

One morning there was a knock on John's door. He opened it to find a man with a carpenter's tool box.

"I'm looking for a few days' work" he said, "Perhaps you would have a few small jobs here and there I could help with? Could I help you?"

"Yes," said the older brother. "I do have a job for you. Look across the creek at that farm. That's my neighbor, in fact, it's my younger brother. Last week there was a meadow between us and he took his bulldozer to the river levee and now there is a creek between us. Well, he may have done this to spite me, but I'll do him one better. See that pile of lumber by the barn? I want you to build me a fence-an 8-foot fence-so I won't need to see his place or his face anymore."

The carpenter said, "I think I understand the situation. Show me the nails and the post-hole digger and I'll be able to do a job that pleases you."

The older brother had to go to town, so he helped the carpenter get the materials ready and then he was off for the day. The carpenter worked hard all that day measuring, sawing, nailing. About sunset when the farmer returned, the carpenter had just finished his job.

The farmer's eyes opened wide, his jaw dropped. There was no fence there at all. It was a bridge. A bridge stretching from one side of the creek to the other! A fine piece of work, handrails and all! And the neighbor, his younger brother, was coming toward them, his hand outstretched.

"You are quite a fellow to build this bridge after all I've said and done."

The two brothers stood at each end of the bridge, and then they met in the middle, taking each other's hand. They turned to see the carpenter hoist his toolbox onto his shoulder.

"No, wait! Stay a few days. I've a lot of other projects for you," said the older brother.

"I'd love to stay on," the carpenter said, "but, I have many more bridges to build."


A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson

Hey Luke!

If you keep it up, like in your last two posts, I think you should be an Assembly leader!  :)

Very well said.  I Like it! :D

PS--please don't repent of your recent stance, it is much needed.

Luke,
Yes, this is true. I owe you a public apology for your judging you too harshly and for saying that you should kill yourself. You are an interesting young man. Keep up the good work!

Verne and Lurker,
You handled Matt's hateful posts extremely well. Don't let him discourage you or offend you.  He's not worth it! He wants to live in that fantasy world of his and believe that the cult was and is good. Verne, you used fair tactics and you admonished him well. Lurker, same for you. You two are both mature and intelligent and an asset to the board.

Eulaha,
Hi Sweetie! Don't worry about Matt. He has spent so much of his time defending a system that hurts women, that he has not seen that what he needs right now is a maternal figure. Some woman to hold him and let him cry his heart out.

Matt,
I cannot take back what I said about the suicide in your case. I think your death would give people peace of mind. I'm not saying that you should do it, because I know you won't. I'm just wanting you to see what an out-of-control person you are and how people hate you so much that they would be relieved to see you kill yourself. Even Luke, who has been the most silent with you would likely be relieved to see that.

Dear Friends,

I totally disagree with what Laurie said.  It is absolutely terrible how we can talk so losely of suicide and such things.  This is wrong and is not honoring to the Lord in any way.  My name at the bottom of this post is also very wrong.  I would not be relieved if this happened.  I will pray that this mindset would stop and encouragement would ensue.  I still can't believe all of this.

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson

He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.  But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.  I John 2:10-11

Ssshhhh!

Can you hear that?

I think I hear the sound of peace, and the quiet rustle of people returning to their senses.   :)

Luke, calm down. I said that you were "likely" to feel that way, I didn't say that you actually felt that way. Matt, I still feel that way. Eulaha, don't worry sweetie.
Here is a little game to help lighten things up. We used this game in my office by filling out the questionnaire and giving it to someone else to see if they could figure out who it was.

1. How old are you?  30
2. Where are you right now? In front of my home computer.
3. What are you listening to? A commerical on the smooth jazz station.
4.  How would you describe your personality? Funny, out-going.
5. What do you like best about your locale? Beautiful scenic mountain view (I live in Colorado)
6.  What do you like the least? It's too dry here; sometimes I get nosebleeds as a result.
7.  If you are a woman, what's the manliest thing about you. If you are a man, what's the girliest thing about you? Well, sometimes I'm lazy.
8.  What are some personal interests you have? Feminism. Social Justice. Socialism. Civil Rights.
9. What was the last movie you saw in the theater and did you like it? Core. No, I didn't like it that much.
10. What was the funniest joke you heard today? Can't think of one I've heard today.

And these 2 I added onto the list:
11. Who's your favorite person on this board? Eulaha L. Verne C. Lurker.
12.  Who you do you dislike the most? Matt by far. Then Luke R.

Now, people calm down and don't get all worked up about a woman defending another woman from male hatred.

Love,
Laurie

Ok, Laurie. I like these type of things myself, so I'll fill this out.

1. How old are you?  21
2. Where are you right now? In front of my home computer. (Look, Laurie, we have something in common!)
3. What are you listening to? Linkin Park's meteroa (it's awesome, you NEED to get it) and my roommate singing country songs to himself.  

4.  How would you describe your personality? I'm Crazy! My craziness encompasses laughing at inappropriate times and inflicting bodily injury to myself from trying to perform stunts.                                  

5. What do you like best about your locale? um...the weather? (not really)                                              

 6.  What do you like the least? Probably Governor Scrub (aka Davis) That man encompasses everything I dislike about California.                                              

7.  If you are a woman, what's the manliest thing about you. If you are a man, what's the girliest thing about you? Ok, keep this just between us on the bulletin board, but I don't know what I'd do without my backSUCK boys and n'STINK. oh my gosh, i'm also totally BRATney spears biggest fan. oops, i hit the caps too much. Anyway, I'm thinking about becoming a groupie, especially for n'Stink. I just can't understand why all the groupies are girls?

8.  What are some personal interests you have? Reading, Hiking, Movies, Music.

9. What was the last movie you saw in the theater and did you like it? Shanghai Knights. Yes, it was funny. Go and see it.

10. What was the funniest joke you heard today?
 
"Don't worry about Matt. He has spent so much of his time defending a system that hurts women, that he has not seen that what he needs right now is a maternal figure. Some woman to hold him and let him cry his heart out."

"Matt,
I cannot take back what I said about the suicide in your case. I think your death would give people peace of mind."

"I suggest you take some time from this bulletin board and go to "Bulletin Board Anger Management" classes."

One of the above...can't decide which.



And these 2 I added onto the list: (Laurie added to the list)
11. Who's your favorite person on this board? MGov

12.  Who you do you dislike the most? No Comment.

Now, Laurie. Please point out any post in which I degrade women or even talk about submission. Thanks!
- Matt

Looks like fun; thought I'd try it too.
1. How old are you?  45
2. Where are you right now? In front of my home computer.
3. What are you listening to? The sound of my hard disk spinning.
4.  How would you describe your personality? Now that's a good question, you'll have to ask my kids.
5. What do you like best about your locale? Convenient access to school, shops, saints...
6.  What do you like the least? It's too humid here.
7.  If you are a woman, what's the manliest thing about you. If you are a man, what's the girliest thing about you? I enjoy watching the hockey playoffs.
8.  What are some personal interests you have? Reading, music, good movies
9. What was the last movie you saw in the theater and did you like it? LOTR - Two Towers. Yes.
10. What was the funniest joke you heard today?  somebody has a SARSAT (sattellite)

MGov,
That was an excellent movie! I thought it was better than the first LOTR, but they are both excellent.

They were both excellent, but I preferred the first.  We have the DVD and have watched it a number of times at home with 5.1 surround sound.  My daughter knows a lot of the lines by heart.

M

Dear Saints, Posers and Wannabes,

     One thing needs to be understood by all:  If there had only been one person lost in sin, whether it was Verne, Matt, Laurie, Eulaha, MGov, me or Adolph Hitler, Jesus Christ would have done exactly what he did TO SAVE THAT ONE LOST SOUL!  He has loved you, me and the other person equally.  God is no respecter of persons.
                                                                 (Acts 10:34)

     To devalue human life is to belittle the work of Christ.  To profess pleasure at the loss of a brother's life is a mockery of the love of God.  To attempt to justify one's personal hatred by misrepresenting it as the attitudes of the many is despicable.

Laurie,
     i have twice attempted to have a reasonable private discussion with you, and while i await a clear response from you, you continue to infest this board with your confused blather.  i am not defending Matt here-- he has chosen to speak for himself.  i am stating that, since you seem to  care about only three or four other people on this board, you might want to consider starting your own thread or website, or at least taking your conversation off the board and to email.  What you are doing here is a disgrace and may be a discouragement to some of the Lord's little ones:
     "It is impossible but that offences will come:  but woe unto him, through whom they come!  It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones." Luke 17:1-2
     Verne has already stated his withdrawal from this forum, or he would no doubt also speak out against your open hatred of the Lord's redeemed souls.  Your flattery would not be sufficient to buy his support for your cynical expressions.
     And, Laurie, please don't attempt to hide behind your gender.  There are a number of people on this board who will attest that i have spoken to brothers in the same manner i am speaking to you:  You have expressed un-Christlike thoughts which need to be denounced, preferrably by you.
     You seem to have begun a new life in Christ, and i earnestly hope you can and will find your way back to Him.  The path you are presently on is not of his choosing.

     Eulaha, if you support Laurie's perspective, please reconsider.  If you are not supportive of the hatred and deathwishes, please let the saints know that

     There really is no reason for anyone to make such a generalization that ex-assembly men do not respect women.  Our mothers, sisters and daughters are women, as was the mother of our Lord.  And anyone who was there knows that Betty G. was as great an oppressor of assembly women as was any man, and moreso than most.
     The statement that the assemblies were "a system that hurt women" implies that men were better treated.  This is simply not true.  Perhaps the sexes were hurt in different ways, yes, but the injuries do not differ in intensity nor in their scarring aftermath.

     The Lord has been merciful to us all, many times over.  Please, let's not test his patience with us.  Love one another.

al Hartman

Brother,

You are right about the purpose of this BB, and if you re-read some of my earlier posts, you will see the I have stood for this very thing - exposing the error of Geftakysism - where it falls short of the Lord's standard.  I don't think you are promoting anti-assemblyism  are you?
As we walk with the Lord there should be a change of perspective - more and more heavenward.  Hence, maybe there is a need for a change in outlook if the Lord shows it to us.  Let's not hold fast to that which the LORD wants to change.  I am not for assemblyism or against assemblyism, but for truth and healing for all.

In His love,
M

My six weeks aren't up so this isn't a real post...

PEOPLE, PEOPLE!!!!!  PLEASE FIND SOMETHING OF SUBSTANCE TO DO WITH YOUR LIFE!!!  THIS BICKERING IS NOT CONSTRUCTIVE!!!  

Although I am glad for what the website did at first, I wish Brian would dismantle this BB...It's time is up...

Paul

This is so sad. Another male's attempt to quiet the unhappy woman. Paul, women were abused beyond belief in the assembly system. It's something that neither of us can understand firsthand (you because you're not a woman, I because I've never been to an assembly). But, I've heard accounts and this is not a time to try to sweep the mistreatment of women under the rugs to save the male's reputation. It's horrifying to see males clamoring around in alarm when they see unhappy women in protest. I imagine it's because you prefer us to keep silent in such matters? By dismantling the BB, it is true that you would help to keep us silent, but not without delivering a devastating blow to women in an effort to cover up your gender's abuse of us. I'm saying this specifically to Al Hartman, Paul, Matt, Luke, and anyone else who has criticized Eulaha or myself. We will NOT be quiet to appease the male.
Love,
Laurie

Hi, Laurie,
I see my name has gotten thrown in there again. I am curious as to why you think I have been thinking about this thread in terms of gender. I have never made any comments about men or women, and I have never tried to silence Eulaha or yourself. How can I? I live in Cali, you live in Colorado, and Eulaha in NY.

I think your concern for the welfare of women is genuine, and that's good. However, I would like to clear up a misunderstanding you have regarding the "assembly system" as you said and its treatment of women. Firstly, you claim that the assembly system damaged women "beyond belief." You are making that claim based on one woman's account and perhaps anything Eulaha might have told you. There were hundreds of women in the assembly. You cannot make a judgment like that without talking to more women. It would be like me going to France and thinking that the entire country was gay because the first Frenchie I came across was gay. Do you understand that point?

Secondly, I will tell you that you can find mistreatment of women anywhere in the world. Perhaps some assemblyites have mistreated their wives, christians outside the assembly have mistreated women, jews have mistreated women, atheists have mistreated women, muslims have mistreated women. I will admit that there are times (only 2 or 3 that I can remember) where I cringed at the way a brother treated his wife (won't say names for obvious reasons). The worst I can remember is when a brother shoved his wife into the car because he wanted her to take their kids home and she was hesitating. The other brothers spoke to him about that though, and here is why: the assembly believed in the Bible. And here is what the Bible has to say about women:

"Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it" Eph 5:25

"So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself" Eph 5:28

"Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them." Col 3:19

Do you see in these verses how a man is supposed to treat his wife? The top verse demands that a man lay down his life for his wife. It is by loving his wife that a man loves himself.  Note especially the last verse there. BE NOT BITTER against them. Thus, the mistreatment of your friend in the assembly or the mistreatment of the person I saw were not instances of an "assembly" sin. They were sins by men. The assembly would not, could not approve of this treatment because it is un-Biblical.

"Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord." I Cor 11:11

Since you are a feminist, I thought I would throw this one in for good measure. This verse speaks to the equality that men and women have in terms of how much God loves us. We are so equal in that sense that God sees marriage as a single entity. He does not only look at the man, nor does He only look at the woman. He looks at them both and he loves them both equally.

I hope that cleared up my perspective on women, Laurie. I do not degrade women, I love them dearly. Laurie, the Lord wants you to be at peace with your feminity. It is good that you are concerned for women, but look to the world for instances of wrongdoings toward women, not just the assembly.
- Matt

My computer is far too slow to read all of the posts in this thread. But with whatI have gleaned I thought I would comment.
I agree with (al I think it was) who said that both men and women were mistreated in the assy. Being female I only have my personal references.  Although being a pretty decent observer I witnessed the "demaleing" of a few men who were far too kind to amount to much of a "leadership position".
Laurie, I understand your anger. I spent years there. Some residual lingers still. I won't tell you what you should or shouldn't say, I agree that was done far too often in the assy. I personally find destructive thoughts only damaging to my own spirit. And when I lay them out for others to hear it is like spitting into the wind. Not worth the breath. But again, the anger needs to be expressed.  And if that is the way you get it out than I think we all are strong enough to recognize the pain behind the words. I've bitten a few heads off in my day I can assure you.
For others:
To get angry at someones anger is not recognizing the grieving process. Anger comes before acceptance. That part of our lives that we had all put so much hope into. Is dead. We had misplaced our hope. We got a big ol' slap across the face and it HURTS!
For those who are telling others how to behave:
To question someone else's spirituality is nonsense! Who are you to tell me who I love or who loves me! You are no one! Our individual relationships with God are our own. In the end it is I who will answer for my life. Don't preach to me your understanding of God's will. If someone is open to God do we not believe He is big enough to ultimately, show us what we need to be shown in order for our lives to be where He wants them to be?
That questioning is what was constantly done in the assy. I think owing to the nature of women, being sensitive to various view, wanting to "get along", it was a point of abuse. I could give examples but I fear I may be outstepping my intended points.
Matt: To poo poo mistreatment of any kind I believe is wrong thinking. You have to admit that owing to some of the specific abuses of GG toward women the very foundation of the assy was tarnished in that light. You can't have the godhead of the group screwing around, with his wife going along with it without some foundational problems. Whether or not you saw a few token people getting "spoken to" there really was (and is throughout christianity) a gender bias.
To be told to put bandaids on my nipples so I won't arrouse any brothers is pretty wierd. It impies that if a brother strays it is my fault for being cold. If I wear big earings, I get "spoken to" because I might cause sinful thoughts in a man's head. Now I admit I shouldn't wear a bikini to worship, but it is not my fault if someone else can't control their zipper.
Personally, I believe the board is cleansing. I personally didn't leave because I recognized the abuses and was smart enough to leave. I left because every promise, every dream, was telling me to go. I left everyone I had come to love deeply. That hurts! Thisboard has helped me to see that although my head didn't know better my spirit did.
Laurie is entitled to some anger. And so are all of us. We all will express it differently. I think the work of love is to have patience with one another. Listen to the messages behind the anger. Sometimes we might just learn something.

You really needed to have read more of this thread, though Amy, in order to understand the context and frame of reference. Laurie has never even been to an assembly meeting. She knew one person in the assembly. I did point out that women have been mistreated in the assembly - as they are the world over. Those are individual sins--the sins of man, not of an entity. For example, if someone in the assembly slaps his wife, how am I and every other saint in the assembly responsible? Am I responsible if my neighbor hits his wife? Yes, if I do not do anything about it. But if I speak to the brother or report his wrongdoings to the authorities, I have done what I can. Aside from that, I cannot be held responsible for the actions of others. I do not condone what happened to some of the women in the assembly - but those are not all-encompasing incidents. There are a lot of brothers from the assembly who respect their wives and love them. Therefore, I do not think it is correct to say that the assembly system is to blame. You can find the abuse of women at any church, mosque, or neighborhood. I did admit that there was gender bias on a world-wide scale. I am by no means saying that Laurie or Eulaha have never been harmed on account of their gender. I'm saying though that it is unfair to say that  I "poo-pooed' how Laurie was treated at the assembly because she has never been to one! Just wanted to make sure you had all the facts, ma'am.

Amy:
Hi sweetie! Thank you for that kind-hearted and timely post. More of that needs to be said. This cult's innerworkings need to be dismantled immediately. I hope that you are healing well. Thanks for your post sweetie.

Matt:
Your last two posts (the one to me and then the one to Amy) were completely out of order. First of all, it was hard to understand them. Second of all, they clearly demonstrate a lack of understanding for the issues at hand. You have managed to irritate every woman on this board. Now's the time to make amends and think about slitting your throat. (Relax, everyone, he's not going to do it, but me saying this will make it clear to him how hated he is by many on this board.)

Love,
Laurie

Laurie---

I think you need to think about what you just said. You said
Matt is "hated" by many on this board. Stephen Fortescue without comment put up a post from 1 John which states that he who hates his brother is walking in darkness and is not in the light. It would do well to pay heed to that.  

Take Care,  Joe

You are implying that a prerequisite for any kind of leadership position in the assembly is to be unkind.  No, ma'am - that's ridiculous. Again, this will vary by assembly, but this does not ring true for the San Diego assembly. I cannot hear Bob Starr, Brian Dom, or Eric Ferrien slandered in this way. All three men put their hearts and souls into the welfare of the saints in the assembly. They never had an unkind word to say to anybody. They genuinely loved everybody and opened their homes up to the saints. These are men that worked 40+ hr work weeks just to come home prepare a message and deliver it at bible studies. Or just to come home and set up for prayer meetings or organizing outreaches. Bob Starr works as a laborer, cleaning parts for huge machines. How anybody could work so hard in the day and then selflessly give himself at night to the Lord's people is beyond me - it's a wonder he never collapsed from exhaustion. So please keep in mind that maybe *some* leaders were unkind, but NOT all.

Anyway, I'm going to go see X2 tonight, it should be great. Let's all go see it with our various friends tonight and have a good time. we'll be together in spirit!

Brian, Mark C,

I find Laurie's repeated recommendation of suicide, even after being told not to by a number of us, very offensive.

Laurie,
It seems that you could lead the way, by being a good example of how to demonstrate love to our enemies, since none of us are able to do so (sarcasm intended).

M

Laurie,
Just for the record, I do not hate Matt AND he has not irritated me nearly as much as you have. You are waaaaaay off base in many of your remarks. You don't read carefully what other people post and shoot off very caustic and ugly remarks. Have you apologized yet about your foolish remarks about suicide? Shame on you.
 PM

Concerning Laurie I was unaware of her connection or lack thereof with the assy. It does not however negate her anger.
Anger does not come from nowhere. I would guess that she has had experiences with a simular cult. or group. Laurie I would like to know but it seems I can't figure out how to connect with anyone. That goes for those who have left me messages too. I have tried to respond only to be told that I can't.
Some of you want me to interspurse biblical references with my examples. OK here's one. Jesus got angry when his Fathers house was being abused. It is not like the apostle Paul told us that Jesus says "it's okay to get angry when GG takes advantage of you" but it is a pretty good indication that even our Teacher got pretty miffed at people that take advantage of others.
Speaking of Anger, Matt WOW! you seem to have a tad bit of it yourself.
I do not "imply" anything. If anything, when I am making a point, I over exagerate it for effect (I'm Irish). I do not beat around any bushes. I understand that some people read things into other's words. That I cannot help. I speak very clearly. If you hear something else it is not my little voice you are listening to and you may consider getting your hearing checked or exorcized. :) that was a joke!
I am fully aware of the good people in the assy. I am fully aware of the people who spent all of their energy following this wolf in sheeps clothing. In fact that was how he got us all to follow. Keep us so busy we cannot think for ourselves. We didn't sleep enough and when we were awake we were inundated with his teachings. Pretty good tactic. it works quite well. always has. that is the way cults work.
I was making a reference to men that I knew that were too kind to become much in the position of leadership. It was a way of me saying something about those "specific" men without saying any names or places. I have no intention of pointing any fingers thus perpetuating any anger.
Oh, and Laurie, I do not have any such feelings toward Matt. He has his right to express himself just as all of us do. I hope he continues.
In my opinion we need everyone to express themselves. If we only have a bunch of people who pat each other on the back we don't have much truth-telling going on.

Oh, I just re-read my original post and Matt I think you may not have been paying attention to what was said. You made comment about Laurie's involvement. I was not addressing that. I was trying to share with her my experience with the futility of letting my anger get the better of me.
Anger is only destructive to the person who is angry. Following my leaving the group I got a precancerous condition right about in the pit of my stomach.
Some people may not see the connection but, I know it was because of my anger. Anger will eat a person from the inside out. I was not until I was able acknowlege and deal with much of my anger that I was able to fight my sickness.
I was attempting to gently share with Laurie to calm down a bit, because I would not wish anything like that to happen to her. We are not only spiritual beings but physical as well. I believe it is all connected. That's why prayer (a spiritual act) can affect the physical world.
I believe there are not only spiritual reasons but physical as well that God tells us to live a certain way. The greatest commandment is Love.

Hello All! :)
  Okay, I'm back and trying to figure out where to begin after reading all the posts since last weekend on this thread.  I promised a clarification of my last post and I think it will take more than a few to explain my thoughts.
  First, I have not gone over to the "dark side" and think that the Assembly was a wonderful place of light and life.  It was an abusive system established on the false teaching of GG and we must never lose our clarity re. this fact.
   I have been gone from the Assembly for 12 years and remember the group from my 20 years of involvement, through the eyes of my personal experience.  Since the raising up of the website, and the reading of more recent testimonies, I noticed in some ways things actually were worse than I remembered.
 One of the things that Luke and Matt  posts' helped me to see is that some of the gatherings were not walking in lock-step with GG and that they resisted the implementation of the full GG abusive system.  Now, I'm fully aware that GG laid the foundation of these groups and his poisonous teaching/practices had an influence on the members.            
    Those members who refuse to honestly evaluate the past influence of GG in their lives and to compare it to orthodox Christian teaching/practice are indeed in a dangerous place, but I do not think we should question the "sincerity" of those who post thoughts that reflect the only kind of Christian instruction they have had.  Notice the use of the word "sincerity", in re. to what we question, vs. the examination of teaching/practice as the operative word for our consideration.
  This brings me to my central discovery which is that I assigned motives to those that I felt were posting  Assembly influenced concepts.  The area of motive is God's alone and it is the work of the Holy Spirit to convict the conscience and to bring renewal of thought.  We are to follow the guide of Gal. 6, as we seek to restore a fallen one, and to do so with humility.
 It is totally understandable that there are those who will have strong emotional reactions to those that are defending concepts that they found destructive to their own lives.  I will not tell these individuals how to feel or that they should not be angry; such "advice" is counter productive.  I need to explain this and will do so later this weekend.
                                       God Bless,  Mark    

My explanation cont.---
   I noticed that some have complained re. Laurie's posts that mention "suicide".  There is a button called "notify" for those who violate the terms of their involvement on the BB and by pushing it Brian is alerted and can take action.  All posters should remember that this kind of violent hate speech (even in jest) is not allowed and is cause for suspension.  We can have passionate debate here, but please refrain from the above kind of suggestions that one "hurt themselves".
  Anger is a topic that can be a confusing Biblical study.  We see Jesus teaching that we are to love our enemies and yet we see Him getting very angry at the Pharisees, etc.  We see Paul listing anger with other sins and yet see him getting angry with the Galatians, etc.  Is this a contradiction in the Bible, or the need for clarity in our own thinking re. the teaching re. anger?  I think the latter.
  I believe that the key in understanding the difference between the "sin" of anger and "righteous" indignation is in the discernment of what motivates the emotion.  When we see an injustice and are passive this is not Christian restraint of "sinful" anger.  When we lash out in hurt and seek to inflict damage on others (be it emotional or physical) we are responding with the fleshly kind of anger.  This last kind of anger does not work the righteousness of God and begs the question does the first kind of anger then work God's justice?
  The discernment of good and evil is not a wholly cognitive experience.  The conscience is both intellectual and emotive and there is an inseperable union of these two.  If we are insensitive to evil around us, and do not have a sense of revulsion and rejection of it, how dwells the love of God in us?
  The problem with us regular ol' sinners saved by grace types is that we will have a mixture of both of these two natures in us.  By self introspection we will be unable to analyze and control the evil, or to actualize the correct responses; mortification of the flesh is only "through the Spirit".  The above realization is the foundation of a life of grace with Christ and with others.
  Paul urged the Corinthians not to judge one another and that he would not even judge himself.  I take that to mean, in the context of our discussion, that we are often not wise enough to discern the purity of the motives of the angry poster.
 In the Assembly the teaching and exhortation was aimed directly at the questioning of our motives.  Any aspiration, even for service of God, was shot down with the admonition to look within and see if one's motives were pure in the matter.  Of course, none of us have perfectly pure motives and the poor honest Saint would descend into the depression of hope denied.
  To those coming from this above experience (in some cases 30 years of it!) there needs to be a process of learning the confidence of walking in grace vs. the shame based system of self suppression.  This will mean learning that having an ego is not bad and when Jesus talked of death to self he was not talking about loathing one's person, but of one's sinful nature.
  In the false holiness system described above we are taught that we are defective as persons and deserve punishment because we "are" bad.  To recover from this "self" needs to re-emerge and gain confidence in the fact that we "are" loved.  We also need to understand how the false system tricked us into unhealthy suppression of normal human emotions.
  To tell someone who is emerging from such experiences as above to control their emotion is like shaking up a coke can, popping the lid, and then trying to contain the contents!  To ask them to try and analyze if their anger is just or sinful is to try to control them again by the same system that damaged them in the first place.
  The answer that we must try and steer their anger to an appropriate response sounds like a worthy goal, but can only be accomplished by the Holy Spirit in our lives.  Remember, it is only the Spirit that can render the flesh inoperative and bring to fruit Love, joy, peace, self control, etc.  We must be confident in the ability of God to shepherd the hearts of His Children, or we could fall into the same error of our Assembly past of standing between God and the individual believer. (there is only one mediator between God and man)
  In reading the posts of Luke and Matt I not only sensed God doing the above work in their hearts, but his gentle remonstrance in my own soul as well.  They apologized and showed vulnerability in confessing their faults.  I see this as God's work of grace as it begot graciousness toward others.  
  I hope this helps in explaining my position and I welcome clarification/questions re. same.
                                God Bless,  Mark  

Matt:  

Since I was a woman who was involved in the assembly for 15 years, I could not leave your post unresponded to.  I can't remember how long you said you were involved in the San Diego Assembly (and believe me, their teachings were the same as those of the other assemblies) but I do remember it was not for a considerably long time.  You have no clue what bondage the teachings of GG has placed both the men and women under (and particularly that of couples.)   In fact, it is interesting that you point out the scriptures that the Lord is actually using to deliver my husband from the bondage he was under to keep me "under control".  Just ask my husband.  He wasn't taught to "love" his wife.  The teachings of GG placed wives more under the category of "slave" than anything else.  They were to serve their husbands, 99.999% of the time unquestionably.  Even if the husband was in sin, the wife should just submit to the abuse and "trust God to take care of the situation".  My husband and I know first hand.  We were counseled this way specifically.  Thank God, it was one of the final straws the Lord used to open my husbands' and my eyes to leave this cult.  You were never a husband in the assembly.  You have no clue what was taught to husbands about how to treat their wives.  I could fill your ears.  But it repulses me and I don't care to go into it in detail.  But those who were in the assembly and were married are VERY aware of what these teachings were.  Sadly, it is only those who will actively seek to pursue truly biblical teachings regarding how a husband is to treat his wife, who will change.  Sadly, there are couples I know personally who are still treating their wives in the manner we were taught and don't see anything wrong with it.  

For someone like yourself, who really doesn't know what was taught to the couples regarding the marriage relationship (were you in those couples meetings?) to contribute in a public forum as to this issue is irresponsible.  Do I sound a bit emotional about this issue?  You bet!  GG's teachings encouraged division in the marriage relationship.  His system was designed to control the husband and wife and not allow God to lead the family and my family is slowly recovering from this devastating teaching and to have someone who wasn't even married to comment on it in such a flippant manner is offensive.

Matt - Please don't think I am ganging up on you in the manner of Eulaha or Laurie, I don't even know you.  But I wanted to put it in the public forum to clear up any misunderstanding that you have placed in peoples minds to think that any one assembly had even a semblance of biblical teaching or understanding of the marriage relationship.

I think the reason for this is that in the main, with a few notable exceptions, the leadership is comprised of cowards.

When you think of the Assembly, think of Iraq on a much smaller scale.  It is easy to bully women (not all of them...Laurie ;) )  and it's not too hard to bully 19 year old men from bad homes, but these types of people are afraid to fight when they might lose.  No backbone at all.

That's why only a few former leaders speak up.  Now, I can understand why they wouldn't want to do it here on the BB.  Most of them write things on the website.  

Hi Verne and Others! :)
  Yes, I guess it was a bit unfair of me to leave you hanging for a week without clarifying my "change of heart".
  The memories of what Judy, Rachel, and so many others suffered as a result of Assembly sponsored abuse should never be forgotten or excused.
  My change of heart had nothing to do with my view of the unrepentant abusers, but re. those that show a vulnerable and contrite expression.  These individuals show the signs of the work of the Holy Spirit in their souls, though in the past they offered a defense of the Assembly.  I trust that God can give us the wisdom to help these individuals in understanding what the theological issues are.  We may get an argument from them, but if presented and answered with civility I think the discussion can be helpful to all.
  There is an inseperable bond between the "spiritual" issues and the "psychological" ones re. the Assembly, in my opinion.  The above disctinctions are not really made in the Bible as to theological truth, or psychological truth.
  The false toxic instruction of GG held it's sway in the "souls" of the members via the manipulation of our thinking and emotions.  Consequently, to recover we must learn the Gospel of the grace of God in truth and how that can heal what the previous erroneous message damaged.    
  The New Test. seems to show the pattern of teaching  theological truth and following it with practical truth re. what that means in behavior, emotionally, and in  relationships.  An example of this would be the theological truth that Christ will never leave us and His invitation to cast all our anxiety(a psychological experience) on Him.
  The fruit of the Spirit is Love, Joy, Peace, etc. which are all emotional responses to the knowledge of the spiritual truth of my salvation in Christ.
                                   God bless,  Mark

Luke Robinson;
If I offended you in anyway, I'm sorry.  I have no intention of doing so.
I don't post much because of how people go off the topic.
The thread I began, "Can Anything Good Come Out Of The BB," was started sencerly and it did not take long for someone with the same last name as yours to throw some of his humor in.  
This thread is a good example of how off the deep end some have and will go.  

Laurie;
" You have managed to irritate every woman on this board. Now's the time to make amends and think about slitting your throat. (Relax, everyone, he's not going to do it, but me saying this will make it clear to him how hated he is by many on this board.)"  This is not needed from anyone.  And to quote you, "Now is the time to make amends."

comments like this are unwelcome here. they are a violation of your user agreement, and as a community we do not want people here who insist on using our board to post  things like this. this is not open for debate. express yourself another way or move on.

forgive my lack of attention. i know many of you were deeply offended by laurie's caustic comments. finals are this week!  :o

Dear Everyone,

This post has been pushing up the pages as people have been told to start pushing up daisies.   ;D  I don't know where we got off.  Maybe it is how we started this whole thing, especially me being the first one discussed.   ;D  I think that's just kind of looney, but that could just be me.  And ever since that beginning, we've begun a downward spiral.  Oh, we've had moments where we raised up a little bit, but then sputtered back down into the mud-flinging and the name-calling from both sides(God forbid that we do away with sides).  In one corner, we try to put all of those "defending assembly teachings", and in the other corner we have all those "adamant against assembly teachings".  And every new post shows how determined that we are to remain divided until someone sees everything our own way.  

But why do we keep arguing all of these irrelevant points?  Why do we keep worrying about the past assembly system?
Why do we keep discussing things that no longer matter?  You know why?  Because the vast majority of us here, are no longer involved in any assembly.  Why do we keep trying to promote our own views of the assembly?  IT IS CALLED MOVING ON.  But you see?  I think I might have figured out one of the main problems.  

WE CAN'T LET GO.  We all say that we have, and yet, everyday or every other day, we log on to talk more and more about the assembly.  We keep having to delve into our pasts to dig up lost memories to prove our points over if the assembly is good or evil, if it is heretical or truth.  Frankly, from now on, the assembly with me is a moot point.  I am no longer INVOLVED in any form of an assembly, so I don't have to worry about it.  I don't have to try and convince myself that I was deceived every day under ministry.  I also don't need to slap myself every minute for ever getting involved.  It was a stage of my life, and NOW I AM GOING ON TO FINISH THE REST OF MY LIFE.  I have probably 50-60-70-odd years left, and frankly, if I waste one more minute on all of this jazz, I think I might lose my marbles.   ;D

I see that many of these posts talk about "fear" and "worry."  "I am scared that he will do this."  "I worry that she will treat me this way."  "I'm afraid that if I say this, I will be judged."  

Let me ask you all a question.  I am sure you all heard it before.  HOW BIG IS YOUR GOD?  Is he 4'6''?  5'10"?  6'7"?  Is he bigger than George?  Is he bigger than me?  Is he bigger than you?  IS HE BIGGER THAN ALL THE PAIN THAT YOU SUFFER THROUGH?  How big is your God?  

If I was just a regular ol' sinner surfing the web, and I come across this site, and I hear about God, I might think that He is quite small, judging from how "big" all of these problems seem to be.  I would go find myself another god, if this is all our God is.

That brings me to another point.  What kind of example are we showing to everyone that comes and reads here?  If we were thinking objectively, what would we come up with according to how we are behaving?  We are out to prove each other wrong, or worse yet, just say our piece, and give little time to real discussion and tossing around of ideas, that we soon become so stubborn in our ideas.  If you want to learn something out of all of this, you got to give a little, get a little.  It's not just "me who is far more older (or younger), or more booksmart (or street smart), and you should listen to me".  It is I believe this, you believe this, let's line it up, and then CHECK IT WITH THE WORD OF GOD TO SEE THE TRUTH.  And the Bible really isn't being used very much in our discussions here.

Do you think about what you are saying here and how people might be affected by it?  We are so oblivious to everyone but ourselves that we can hardly see those that we are stepping on.  I personally have been at fault for this, as well as many here.  But think about it.  If someone were to come here without the slightest notion of Christianity or WITH a slight notion of Christianity, and saw how we were after each other and how we discussed things, he or she probably would not like to become one.  You might say that that person is responsible for how they take what we have to say, but my friend, that is not what Christ would say.  

We have put all of these issues into the limelight, formally known as the internet.  It is a public place where anyone and everyone can log on and read all of this.  SINCE THIS IS PUBLIC, DON'T YOU THINK THAT MAYBE WE SHOULD BEHAVING LIKE A TRUE TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST???  It doesn't take much to act exactly like the world.  Is that our goal here?  Or is it something deeper?

IT IS TIME TO MOVE ON.  You can take that comment anyway you like, but this is how I mean it.  I think that we are holding on so strongly to the assembly, whether we like it or not, and we can't let go in any of our discussions.  Now, I am not saying for those involved in the assembly to leave.  No, not in the least.  If you trust that God has put you there, then you stay there.  But for those that have left, YOU ARE DOING YOURSELF NO GOOD BY JUST PICKING AT THE SCABS SLOWLY FORMED BY ALL THAT HAS HAPPENED.  IF YOU WANT TO SEE HEALING, IT IS NOT THROUGH A TEN STEP PROCESS(THE FIRST ONE BEING ANGER).  BUT IT IS THROUGH LETTING GO AND LETTING GOD.  IF YOU WANT TO SEE HEALING, IT IS NOT THROUGH "LETTING IT ALL OUT" AS MANY HAVE SAID.  IT IS TRUSTING THE LORD.  And if you haven't come to that point where you are dependent on God, then it's not too late to start now.  

You might say,"Well, Luke, you don't know all the problems I've been through" or to quote that good ol' song,"the trouble I've seen."  You're most definitely right.  I don't know all that you've seen.  I am not in your brain.  I have never seen through your eyes and I haven't walked a mile in your shoes.  But I do know someone who has.  Who has been touched with every infirmity.  Who can heal the sick and hurting.  Who died for each and every one of you.  AND WHO IS VERY BIG AND POWERFUL AS WELL AS CARING AND LOVING, MUCH HIGHER THAN OUR HUMAN LOGIC IN ALL ITS CAPABILITY, CAN PONDER.

I love you people.  And if I didn't love you, I would tell you something else.  Or worse yet, nothing at all.  But I see that even now we can learn to let go of all of those things and continue on with our lives and following the Lord as he gives us the grace and power.  God bless and keep you, and may He give you the words to speak as you continue to converse on this forum.

Ps 46:10
Be still, and know that I am God...

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson

Luke

Maybe if you assure everyone that you are not going to be an Assembly leader, this thread can rest in peace? ;D

Also, for what it might be worth, i agree with 99% of your last post except one thing.  From what I have been able to discern, and from talking to the two people I know from the Assembly, and the dozens from another cult, it is important to talk about things.  

Talking about things is part of "moving on."  However, as you pointed out, there comes a time when people need to change the subject, and move on to another topic.

No matter what anyone does, a large percentage of the Assemblyites will get involved in another cult, or abusive church.  The reason is that we don't learn the first time, which is why talking is so important.

However, I agree with you, this thread is burnt out.

Lurker

Lurker-
  Very good point re. the problems that can develop if we choose to not talk about our Assembly past.  All things can work together for good in our life with God, even our mistakes.  To not learn from our mistakes is to squander an opportunity to mature in our lives with Christ.
Luke-
   It is not what we can present on the BB as good Christian example that will help us to change or will influence others for good.  I realize this is a somewhat puzzling comment to make and I will try to explain.
  In our religous past we strove to maintain a standard of conduct and attitude that we were told was "Christ like" and indeed the Bible urges Christians to do just that.  This past pursuit of moral excellence had some big flaws in it.
  1. The standard of excellence was chiefly loyalty to the leader and his ministry.
   2. The performance was for others and for acceptance in the group.
   3. Much of it was hypocritcal. (please understand;  I mean just good people who couldn't be honest about their own inner struggles as there were no means for such a discussion)

  The last point needs further explanation as it is not a broadside against all Assembly folks as being phony GG cult members, but an experience all Christians struggle with.  In the Assemblies that I was in the dynamics were certainly strongly supportive of the hypocrisy I mentioned, but it is a common Christian experience.
   
   I believe that honesty is the start to the practical work of the Holy Spirit in a believers life.  God works from the inside out to create an image of Himself in our lives.  Some might argue and say "Christ" is the key and we need to just "look to Him".  While the statements are true they can be meaningless spiritualizing if they are not understood in relationship to the condition of my heart.
  Let me explain it this way: The Spirit begins His work in us by convicting us of our sin.  God is working a honest response to my true condition.  God's Spirit also shows us the way he intends to deal with that sin and we are shown Jesus Christ and Him crucified.  This in turn creates a change that is manifested in my life; an attitude of humility, gratitude, and love.  
   What does this have to do with the BB and the points you raised (good ones)?  When I read the testimony of Kevin Welsch, Arthur, Steve I. etc. I see the process of God doing a deep work of transformation.  It isn't as if we need to promote the process of anger, going back through our past, etc. in some kind of 10 step treatment program.  What is happening is that the fact of these individuals making the discovery of God in the naked honesty of their wounded souls.  It ain't pretty sometimes!  We must take the wounded as they come our way.
   One thing just about everyone who was in the Assembly notices, who starts to think these things through is, "Man, I didn't realize how proud I was."  Even the nicest most compliant individual from the Assembly tends to beat their chest in contrition over the lack of personal honesty re. their inner life that they had in the Assembly.
 They daily heard the Word of God and yet were unable to make some of the connection to their own lives.  The new awareness that it was God knocking at their door, when they thought it was the "worldly church" that needed the correction, is a stunning revelation.  Restoration from such brokeness takes some time for most and the recommendation to "get beyond it" is not what will do the trick.
  It is through the help of others who understand these needs that God ministers to these hearts.  We are told to weep with those that weep (not to tell them to stop weeping, or to trivialize their pain) to comfort those who need to be comforted.  These are real human behaviors that reflect the work of the Holy Spirit in our relationships and what it means to be in the body of Christ.  Grace is a miraculous life transforming power, but the recitation of verses alone is not the only vehicle of that grace.  It is that grace in our humanity that provides the loving hand up that we all so desperately need; the word made flesh.
  May God take our wounds and create in us a sensitivity to our brethren that leads to a powerful expression of Christ's love toward others.
                                 God Bless,  Mark

Dear Mark and Lurker,
I am hesitant to write this post because I do not want to give the appearance that I agree with Luke Robinson on everything. I must say, however, that his point about not being angry and bringing up past assembly wrongs is an excellent one, and one that is Biblically founded. I am also hesitant to write this because way back when, I entreated the poster Bluejay to let his anger go from "his heart and mind," and I was subsequently rebuked by someone (his name starts with a V and ends with an -erne) for it.

The Lord has given me these verses as of late:
Colossians 3:13 "Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye"

Ecc 7:9 "Be not hasty in thy spirit to be angry: for anger resteth in the bosom of fools."

Eph 4:31-32 "Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
  And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you."

These are not my words, they come from the Lord to instruct us. I regret that I have presented myself as a fool on this thread, the Lord told me that when I was reading Proverbs in my morning time. The tongue is really the most powerful organ in the body, with your tongue, you can damage your reputation in an instant. You can hurt someone beyond belief, and with that same organ, confess your sins and ask for forgiveness. However, I have learned that the Lord does not desire people to be angry or to react angrily. He wants us to forgive, and He very much wants us to let go: "let all bitterness, all wrath, be put away from you."

Luke is right. The "assembly system" is close to collapse. What assemblies have not disbanded are on the way to it. George Geftakys will never again be able to rebuild it - he has absolutely no credibility. The Lord will reckon with GG as He sees fit. So, when someone has something to defend about the assembly system, they are defending something from their past. Likewise, when someone brings up something in reaction to that, they are bringing up something from their past. It's not something that is relevant anymore. And bringing up past issues constantly out of emotion is not evidence of having let something go.

This paragraph is specifically for Kim Tobin, Amy Denny, and Eulaha Long. I'm sorry that it seemed I was trying to minimize your feelings about your past involvement. My intention was to show that there were a lot of Godly, loving, caring, kind people in the assembly. So it seemed to me that blanket statements about the assembly were unfair at best. That is why I brought up the issue about brothers in the assembly who treated their wives with the utmost respect and love. I know that apparently your individual experiences do not correlate with what I've seen, but they do not negate the actions of loving husbands in the assembly.

Ultimately, I cannot view the assembly as something evil or a tool of the devil. Think of how many people accepted Jesus. I'm not just talking about the people who attended meetings, I mean think about the people you prayed with on Sunday afternoons at their doorsteps, or at the malls during outreach, or at the parks, or when we would go to the hospitals. They may not have come to the Bible studies they were invited to, but think how many came to know Jesus. I very much think that the Lord used the assembly for many good things.

My last point is that I would like to acknowledge that the assembly has harmed people on individual cases. Eulaha, Kim, Amy, I know that you have been harmed and I pray for your healing and for the Lord to bless you richly. I want to warn you thought that because you are out of the assembly does not mean you will not get burned elsewhere. No church is perfect, the assembly is not perfect, the baptist church down the street is not perfect, the non-denominational church kiddy corner to that is not perfect. I agree with Luke: only one thing in this world will not burn you: the LORD! He is the only perfect thing. Depend on Him and not on anything else, no system, no church, no pastor, no leading brother. Depend on Him!

Verne - if you truly did not want to argue, then please answer my email that I sent last week so that we can try to come to some reconciliation. Ok? Ok.

I know that I have wronged a lot of people on this board. Please email me or send me a message if you are bitter with me.  :-\  :'(

I also know that I'm not going to get very many positive reactions to this post. I'm sorry in advance. I'm still trying out this "nice" business, not to good at it yet.  ::)

I will sign the way Laurie does (with Love) except I'll add Lord bless.

Lord bless.
Love,
Matt ;) ;D

I know how you feel Matt.  Try to look at like this:

If some good things happen, is it proof that the system in which they occured was "good," or Godly?

Answer, NO.

Follow this logic:

The communist government in China is not bad, just look at how many people have come to Christ over there.

or

The Taliban was not that bad.  God used it to allow two missionaries to preach the gospel and then, through their captivity, bring the worlds attention on Christianity in Afghanistan.  The Taliban is good.

Neither of these two statements are correct.  God is good, and is able to work even in horrible situations.

Lurker

Lurker,
Thank you for your post. I must admit that I do not see the connection between the Assembly and the governments of communist China and the Taliban. One of the main goals of the Assembly was/is (for those still meeting) to bring people to Christ. The Lord worked directly through the assembly. The Taliban and communist China obviously do not have similar goals. The Lord worked indirectly in that case. The Assembly was an entity that encouraged outreach, the Taliban and Communist China are both known to suppress Christianity. Just some thoughts.
Lord bless.
- Matt

[/quote author=Lurker link=board=15;threadid=353;start=0#9362 date=1052182749]One of the main goals of the Assembly was/is (for those still meeting) to bring people to Christ.

I'd add one more thing; in spite of 'the assembly' system there were those who loved the Lord and showed that love to people like Matt and others, hence Matt has not experienced the 'corruption' that others have experienced.

M

Yes, absolutely

Thanks for clarifying this.  Most of the people were sincere, dear people, with the exception of a few leaders.  It's like this in every group like the Assembly.  My criticism is directed towards the system, not the sheep.

thank you for your insight

Hi MGov,
Thank you for this post. I feel the need to clarify a bit of this to fully explain it. I do not deny that I have never been wronged in the assembly. I've sent emails to Brent Tr0ckman and Kim Tobin to explain the few ways I've been wronged. However, I find it is more fruitful to reflect on the positive aspects of the assembly rather than just the negative. Is there anyone here that can deny that they've experienced anything positive in the assembly? There have been a lot of posts about individual wrong doings, so let me give 3 examples about individual positive/encouraging things:
1. I remember that at my first campus conference, I had terrible nightmares the first night in the cabin. I was resolved not to go to any of the lectures the next morning, but, of course, that was difficult to get away with. I did end up going to the first one that morning, but I freaked out in the middle and walked out of the chapel where the lectures were and started on the trail back to the cabins. A canadian brother, Will Plowman, from the Calgary assembly followed me out and we talked for two hours. He did not talk to me about my involvement in the assembly. He did not rebuke me for walking out. Instead, he prayed with me and I told him everything on my mind for an hour or so.
2. Once at lunch outside the hotel where our Sunday meetings were, I got in a shouting match with a brother and then I felt like everyone was against me (paranoia to the max). While everyone else went out for outreach, I stayed behind with the leading bro, Bob Starr, and he prayed with me and calmed me down. I can still remember how concerned he was and his offer to help me in any way he could. Such a gentle man: "And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient" 2 Ti 2:24
"A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger" Prov 15:1
Such a Godly man. Thank you, Lord, for bringing Bob Starr into my life.
3. Once, about 2.5 yrs ago Briant Gibb and I were witnessing at the Mira Mesa mall on Sunday afternoon and we came across these brothers who were about 10 and 8 (I still remember their names, James and Jason..and I can't even remember people I meet last week). They were so interested in what we had to say and they very readily prayed with us and accepted Jesus. I was so happy, praise God! I still think about that incident periodically. Everyone at the assembly was happy to hear about it too during prayer and it did not matter that these boys didn't come with us back to the meeting (that would be kidnapping).

These things might seem insignificant, and you might say, so what? I'm only pointing these out to show that the assembly is/was not an entirely evil place. If anyone else has positive memories of the assembly, I'd like to hear them too.
Lord bless,
Matt.

while I can't relate anything positive about the Assembly, I will say that I agree with you that leading 2 children to Christ is a wonderful experience.

Without taking away the obvious blessing of being used by God, and the fact that His soverign grace drew these two young boys into a saving faith in Christ, I would like to pose a few questions regarding our "new" topic, whether the Assembly was a good place, and if so, how good.  (something like that I guess)

1.)  These kids were saved at a mall.  Do we conclude that the mall is a "good place?"

2.)  These kids were NOT saved in an Assembly meeting, and never attended one.  Can their salvation be linked in any way to the Assembly, or is it simply the result of God using His people to reach the lost?

3.) Is it not more likely that God will continue to use a person AFTER they have left the Assembly?  Consider how other churches grow and prosper and contrast that with the apparent rejection, by God Himself, of the Assembly and its "ministry."

Lurker

aren't civil discussions so much more fun? ;)

I am NOT in favir if hatred towards God's people.  Just wanted to clarify.

Dear brother Matt,

Since Lurker has responded to point 3. on your most recent post here, I will respond to points 1. and 2.
The way Will Plowman and Bob Starr ministered to you in your time of need was indeed very Christlike and should have been the norm in the assembly. However, I am sorry to say, that most of us were treated as if we were the 'rich young ruler', because, by my evaluation, there is/was a lack of sensitivity to the spirit of Christ.
My heart overflows on this topic, and I cannot write it all down for you now; maybe I wll PM or email you with 'the rest of the story...'

You are right there were some positive things in the 'assembly system'.  The Word was preached, and it was the 'Word' that worked in us.  Also, to some extent there was that aspect of 'family' which you don't see in too many other gatherings.
Much love,
M

Brother Verne,

Either I was not clear in the wording of my post, OR you did not read my post carefully.
I intentionally said 'I'll add one more thing' meaning that I was adding it to his list, meaning that I was agreeing with his list.
I intentionally said in spite of 'the assembly' system - that is self-explanatory.
And I intentionally wanted to 'make concessions' for those who have not been in the system for long enough to have experienced what us 'older' folk have been through.
Are we in agreement??

In His love,
M

Hello everyone,
Eulaha, Kim, and Amy: Hi sweeties! How are you holding up? The hatred is starting to die down thankfully. I'm pleased as punch that the people that were defending the system that hurt you are starting to see the error of their ways (Luke, Matt, MGov, etc). Powerful women make males quake! I love you.

Matt and Luke:
I see that you are both coming to your senses. Matt, you still have quite a way to go. You strike me as a kid who takes the long way instead of the short. At this point, I'm ready to retract my suicide comment. I think it has scared you into realizing how people felt about you. Matt, continue on the path you've taken recently, and you may turn out a decent kid after all. Who knows?

Verne and Lurker:
Hey, keep up the good work

Love,
Laurie.

Brother Matt and All

Even through the 'negative' experiences (and Matt has experienced some of them) the Lord has taught me that He is sovereign, and I am not bitter in any way towards any one.  Bitterness eats away at 'my' heart, and I end up being the one who suffers the most from it (ie bitterness). Even when 'exposing' the problems I have seen, it is not with a bitter attitude, but with a desire for others to 'recognize' the issues and seek the Lord's remedy.  The Lord (in Revelation) pointed out the issues that each of the 7 churches faced, and that they need to repent, or else...

So, in a way, it is a positive thing that the sufferings I experienced worked to get God's Word real in my life.  I myself am guilty of 'being part of the system'(never as a LB(sorry wife) or worker), but not anymore.
This is my desire: "And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient" 2 Ti 2:24
I must confess that I did 'strive' to look spiritual, but failed miserably.  My burden is to be 'gentle unto all... apt to teach, and patient'.

Heb 12:14 Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.

M

Hi Everyone! :)
  A previous poster incorrectly spoke for others on the BB by suggesting that there is a hostility against Matt here that is shared by all.  I do not feel this way about Matt and we need not have an "us vs. them" mentality to have a lively debate.
  This is part of my "change of heart" in participation in this forum and was revealed to me via Luke's and Matt's humble expression here.  This does not mean that I agree with all that Luke and Matt may post, or that I believe we can't have differences of opinion, but that I shouldn't assign motives to those expressing their opinions.  Only God knows the heart and it is crossing a boundary to make such judgments.
   To place individuals together into camps such as "anti-assembly/ pro-assembly", or any other such designtions, we ignore the issues we are trying to discuss and miss the point.  Sweeping generalizations are usually an unfair representation of the facts.  If we were to generalize we would be closer to the truth by understanding that each individual situation was different.
   This does not mean that there are not general principles that we can draw from Assembly teaching/practices, but as to how each individual member experienced these things we can not judge the sincerity(or lack of sincerity) of their involvement.
 We also can not specifically judge the degree of their culpability in the abuse that went on, with certain exceptions.  The exceptions are the facts re. teaching and behavior.  These exceptions are primarily aimed at those in the position of leadership in the Assembly.  Whereas I may not know "why" GG did certain things I know he did teach/practice certain things that were wrong and thus I can make a judgment.
  To designate an individual poster as being in a particular camp and then to identify them as being guilty by association is an attempt to assainate the character of the poster and to silence their opinion.  This is not a means of pursuing convincing argument, but an attempt to bully others on the BB via intimidation.
   One thing I learned from my Assembly experience is that I will not allow others to bully me any more, nor to tell me how to think and feel.  There is a natural reaction to those who have been subjected to the above abuse to react strongly against those who cross the boundary of my relationship with Christ by attacking one's personal worth.    
  It is not a lack of humility or bitterness that fights for the integrity of the bounds of my personal freedom and value in Christ, but the strong determination to insist that I'm never violated again by spiritual abuse.
                                     God Bless,  Mark