AssemblyBoard

www.protestwarrior.com (http://www.protestwarrior.com)

go to protest gallery

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Gee I grew up hearing all the time that Russia had and  was going to use their weapons of mass destruction against us. I wonder why we didn't invade? Oil Well I guess we'll never know?  ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

Frank:  Well, friends the "Shock and Awe" we were promised has yet to arrive, What do you think Joe?

Joe: "You got me Frank, But rumors have it that Saddam is injured!"  

Frank:  Yes, but we don't think it is a carear ending injury!

Joe:"Yes the first half has been pretty much a disapointment who knows will the allies deliver what we were hoping for next week?"

Frank:  We pause for a station break!  "This Saturday night catch reality T.V. with "Joe Millionaire!" and don't miss this weeks History Channel special,  "Lives of the Debauched Romans"  Now back to the show!


 :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[

That sign below shows it all: "Saddam only kills his own people, it's none of our business". What a bunch of garbage!! Of course it's our business---or is mankind only limited to the U.S.A.?? The U.S. and Great Britain are the only two countries who still remember 9-11 and what and where terrorism is. It IS our business to deal with terrorists, ESPECIALLY terrorists who kill their own people.

"Oh Saddam will never use weapons of mass destruction, what are we so worried about him for?" Well, as I remember it on 9-11-2001 a person just as ruthless as Saddam Hussein had his henchmen fly 737's into the World Trade Center. Have we forgotten so soon???? This isn't about oil--this is about the safety of the world's people--we in the USA were hit dramatically by someone just as mad as Saddam Hussein is. Have you forgotten the 3000+ victims??

They had to stop the Fireworks at Euro-Disney in France by the way. The other night when the fireworks went off 5000 french troops at a nearby military facility surrendered.


--Joe

Hi David

Don't let these facts get in the way of your war opinions but:

Nato was formed in order to combat the communist threat.  We had thousands of Nukes pointed at the USSR, in order to contain the threat of communism.  They tried to deploy missiles in Cuba, in order to threaten us.

The money and force arrayed against the USSR makes what we are doing in Iraq look like an ROTC exercise.

One of the main reasons we are invading Iraq is to avoid another cold war scenario, and this one with a much more unstable and hostile area of the world.

Again, don't let the facts flavor your opinion on this.  As a history teacher, you of all people understand that no one ever pays any attention to history.

On a lighter note:

How many Frenchman does it take to defend France?

Answer: I don't know, it's never been tried before.

Post war Political map of Iraq:

"I envision three democratic states:  Mobil, Texaco, and Chevron."  the last one is a Brent Tr0ckman original.

Arthur---

By the way, I do understand that that sign was made as an "anti-anti-war protest. But the sign shows the thinking
of so many protestors.  thanks for the post.

--Joe

LOL!   ;D

There was an article in Time which mentioned that French president Chirac wanted to give tips to Bush on how to surrender.  


www.sgtstrkyer.com
www.blogsofwar.com

Hehe! ;D

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  Yes, IRAQ is a real present danger to the U.S. No 1. Their Islamic teachings condone violence whereas the teachings of Jesus don't!

  "Overcome evil with good"  How ironic I noted this verse above this thread!  My friend Ran Bates registered himself as a consciencious objector during the Vietnam war.  His convictions as a Christian lead him to do so.  He spent 4 years working in the conservation core as an alternative to fighting.  Do you think he was wrong?  The teachings of Christ seem to have a lot to say about 'turning the other cheek!" Yet I find that for the most part Christians are opting for an Old Test view on war!?  This really seems to me a serious controdiction.  Arn't you people suppose to be "Heavenly Minded?" My cousin Harold Fesperman volunteered to fight in Vietnam.  He was killed at 18 years of age.  Why?  What was he doing there?  What did we acomplish there?  Today his mother longs for his company and still nurses her broken heart.  I wonder if there really is a real and present danger with IRAQ?  2o years from now will the people who have lost their sons think it was worth invading?

This one is too funny!

http://www.funforwards.com/flash/september02/saddam.swf

it has sound too.

Iraqi command uses gas station map.  lol

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_032703/content/eib_extra_2.guest.html

One of the "human sheilds" in Iraq changes his mind when he finds out that people would rather die than be under Saddam's oppression (oppression--meaning, for example, having some people executed by putting them in a plastic shredder feet first for a slow painful death.):

http://www.newsmax.com/showinside.shtml?a=2003/3/24/95147 (http://www.newsmax.com/showinside.shtml?a=2003/3/24/95147)


wacco comments from a senator's wife:
http://www.newsmax.com/showinsidecover.shtml?a=2003/3/27/121227 (http://www.newsmax.com/showinsidecover.shtml?a=2003/3/27/121227)

David, that's a good point and I think about the same thing.  I dunno, the Bible doesn't say that Christian should not go to war.  I think it is left up to the individual.  

The US is doing it for the right reasons though, to set people free.  That goes in line with what Jesus came to do. I think it's interesting--Israel is surrounded by Muslim nations, and beyond that there is mostly-anti Israel Europe to the West and anti-Isreal Russia to the North and anti-Israel China to the East.  Only the U.S.  way out here on a whole separate continent, supports her.  Why is that?  I'm thinking it's all according to God's sovereign plan, and it's no conincidence that this country was founded with Christian principles and morals and many Christians have lived here during its history, as well as missionaries being sent out to the whole world.  Though the US has its share of corruption, I'm leaning toward the view that the US is part of God's check to evil in this world.

Guys be careful what you read- I suspect the "Rumor" that Saddam had been injured was started by our gov. to insight apathy amongst his own people. Truthfully you must admit the news we were given in the beggining of the war is not what is happening now. I suggest that the best way to get an unbiased view is to tune into foriegn cable stations.  Yes they have there own bias but some of these countries are much farther removed which limits there need to lie.

"To everything thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven." Ecc 3:1

"...a time to love, a time to hate, a time of war, and a time of peace." v. 8

David--You are right there is a time to turn the other cheek, but there are times when violence is necessary. If someone broke into your home and began to attack your wife would you turn the other cheek? If you saw a man about to kill his own children would you turn the other cheek?

Saddam Hussein first "broke into his neighbors house"(Kuwait) and then killed his own people.
He, like Osama Bin Laden is a man of fierceness
and evil. He refused to comply with U.N. requests and
is a terrorist. Is it only Christian if you turn the other
cheek? No. jesus never said anything about not being able to defend yourself or others. He asks us to be a father to the fatherless and defend the old and weak. If that means going on the offensive so be it.

--Joe

Joe, that's a good point!  God does make it clear that one of the things he does and one of the marks of a righteous man is that he defends those who are oppressed.  Thanks for reminding us about that.

Isa 1:17
17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

Isa 58:6
Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?

Ps. 146 7-9
7 Which executeth judgment for the oppressed: which giveth food to the hungry. The LORD looseth the prisoners: 8 The LORD openeth the eyes of the blind: the LORD raiseth them that are bowed down: the LORD loveth the righteous: 9 The LORD preserveth the strangers; he relieveth the fatherless and widow: but the way of the wicked he turneth upside down.

Acts 7:24
And seeing one of them suffer wrong, he[Moses] defended him, and avenged him that was oppressed, and smote the Egyptian:  

Acts 10:38
How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.  

Did you guys read the stuff that Wanda Baucus said?  She is just messed up!  She should have just said, "Gee Saddam isn't that bad and I didn't think Hitler was all that bad either - matter of fact Hitler cared about the people he was massacring too!"

I'm going to go out on a limb ::) and say that I believe that Saddam is indeed fairly severely injured, possibly paralyzed. Look at a couple of the recently released videos, especially the one in black & white showing him and his "counsel".  He is just sitting there slouched in his chair w/a dull/dazed look on his face not even speaking.  Only his aides make addresses and you never see him standing up.
If I'm wrong then give me ten lashes w/a wet noodle. ;D

David,
I find your reference to being "heavenly minded" interesting.  This was a common phrase used by GG.  It is only assembly types that are supposed to be "Heavenly Minded" in the way you seem to be intimating.
Now, that being said, it is indeed essential to Christianity to defend the weak and oppressed from those who would abuse them, enslave them and murder them.  The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,Luke 4:18.
This bulletin board itself was established as a frontal assault on the forces of evil that those in bondage might be delivered.  We have a right, on this ground and many others to bring an end to this wicked man.  He has had many opportunities to repent.

"My kingdom is not of this world, My kingdom is an heavenly kingdom, if my kingdom were of this world then my disciples would fight, but it is not of this world..."


                                   JESUS

arthur-
do you really believe that we are over there to set the iraquis free?  do you really believe that to me the core motivation for our presense in iraq?

if so, why aren't we also fighting in places like rwanda...or do we just plan to knock these places off one at a time?

i would be very interested to learn different peoples' perspectives on why we are there.  so, let's have at it!

Good question and I've wondered the same thing.  I don't know where all the United States is fighting, they may be in rwanda doing covert ops, who knows.  
But the main reason for why Iraq and not others is that those others are kinda small fries and do not have the capablity of wmd (weapons of mass destruction).  If Hitler would have been stopped years before 1939, instead of trying appeasement as Britian and France did, there probably would not have been the holocaust, major world war, etc.  Hilter and Nazi Germany posed a major threat.  I guess Bush thinks that Saddam poses enough of a threat to stop him.  
Also, I think this is a continuation of a response to the terrosist attack of 9/11.  I think Bush shouldn't stop at Iraq but go on to Saudi Arabia and Iran, seeing as how they support the terrorist activities as much as Iraq, if not more.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=31784

If someone thinks America profits by this war, then they aren't living here and seeing the $2/gal gas prices or they haven't heard that Bush asked Congress for $70 billion to pay for the war.  I hope the US gets some oil out of this, lol.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/3/21/133453.shtml

i guess i just have a hard time believing that we are all that noble.  i see the vast majority of our public policy as needing to be changed and yet our politicians won't step up to the plate to change it (health care, social security, drug law) b/c to do would be to commit political suicide.  american politics have become such that most people will say whatever needs to be said to get them in office and / or to keep them in office.  look at bush's latest atrocity with regard to farm aid.  sigining that bill into effect was completely contrary to what he said he would do in his presidential campaign.  i would therefore bet that we aren't in iraq for such a noble reason as to free the iraqis.  granted, i hope to be correct in my belief that Bush is a God-fearing Christian who really has been on his face before the Lord, but i still think there's more to the story.  

call me a skeptic, but i don't think the american public knows our true motivations for being in this war.  

our troops have my full support and i am not saying that we shouldn't be there.  i am simply saying that i wish our politicians would be more forthright with the public.

The Americans did not participate in WWII until Pearl Harbor. They delayed until they were literally forced to enter the war effort, and they were criticized for doing so.  My opinion is that they should have entered in much earlier.  Many more Jews perished because of a lack of compassion, and a "hands off" attitude.
NOW, Bush has chosen to avoid that kind of situation(so to speak) and is being criticized for doing so.  The media has such an unbelievable influence on our opinions.  I suggest that we learn to truly 'listen' to people.  As Christians, our judgements can be true, because God is not the author of confusion.  The media produces news(accurate or not).  I recommend a movie:
Double Edge
1992, Drama, PG-13
Director: Amos Kollek With: Faye Dunaway, Amos Kollek, Mohammed Bakri, Makram Khoury, Michael Schneider, Shmuel Shiloh
Aggressive, but unenlightened, NEW YORK TIMES reporter Faye Milano (Faye Dunaway) is sent to Israel to report on the "simple" issues of the Arab-Israeli conflict. Her naivete draws her into the fray.
Enjoy.

So far no chemical weapons have been found!  So far plenty of innocent people have been slaughtered!  So far WHY?????????

I would assume that the current game plan is to first remove the resistance, then look for the weapons of mass destruction.  This only makes sense doesn't it?  It is kind of difficult to search for stuff if the Iraqi military is shooting at you.  Weapons of mass destruction may be found in the first phase of this, but I suspect that we may have to wait to the Iraqi resistance is removed before we find Saddam's nasty stuff.  Who knows the WOMD may have even been moved outside of Iraq's borders by now.

And plenty of "innocent" people would have been slaughtered without the attack on Saddam as well.  Many activities have risk to the innocent, operating a motor vehicle for example.  If it is the innocent that people are concerned about, why don't they complain more about risky activities other than the war?  Perhaps it is really the intended targets (the guilty) that they are really concerned about.  Our bullets are not intended to kill the innocent, just as motor vehicles are not intended to kill the innocent, but they both do (and did you ever see how some of those guys drive over there).  In my opinion, Saddam is a bigger risk to the "innocent" than our guns or "even" Iraqi drivers.

Slaughtered by whom???? >:( >:( >:(
GOOD GRIEF!!!
Oh, excuse me.  Since the only "plenty" of people slaughtered have been the "elite"/"crack" Republican Guard, these must be the "innocents" you are talking about.  Or is it Saddam and his sons you are talking about?  He's obviously never committed any of the atrocities that the evil Bush has accused him of. ???

"I WILL HONOR THOSE WHO HONOR ME!"


O.K. We all know America is a much more just and righteous nation than IRAQ.  Let me explain with the facts.  IRAQ is the biggest producer of pornagrophy in the world!  Also they have the largest drug trafficing problem in the world.  Also there are more murders per person in IRAQ than in anyother country in the world.  Also in IRAQ parents wouldn't dare let their children play unsupervised lest some pervert abduct them.  Also IRAQ has a history of racial prejudice and even slavery of which they have never formally apologized. Also although they have only 2% of the worlds population they consume over 25% of the worlds depleting recources. This accounts for the fact that IRAQ is unique for its being the only country where the majority of its citizenz are overwieght and 1 out of 10 is obiese! And they dump more pollution into the atmosphere than any other industrilized country. Yes when we read the facts its easy to understand why people in IRAQ think they are morally superior.

David----

That's great sarcasm. But we really have no problem with the Iraqi people themselves, it's the leadership that is the problem.What you state about Iraq(but intended for the U.S.A. in sarcasm--i.e. pornography king of the world) is very true. It is a small country. They do not contribute that greatly to pollution. the USA is the biggest producer of pornography etc.---but the USA is also the hugest contributor in the world to charity per capita. when the world suffers, The USA always helps. Very few other countries in the world give as greatly as the USA to the poor and suffering around the world.

When is the last time you saw a "Middle East for Africa" concert, donation or pouring forth of aide? The USA though a "Christian country" is truly defiled in many ways, but it is a very giving country and greatly follows the "golden rule".
The Muslims don't pour forth aide even into Northern Africa which is largely Muslim, because that is really not a tenet of their religion. True, there is much evil in the United States, but the USA also holds to the tenet "be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good" and it is shown through it's charity.

--Joe

Let's lighten up for a minute:


   What is the Iraqi air force motto?

   I came, I saw, Iran.
....................................................................
   Have you heard about the new Iraqi air force exercise program?

   Each morning you raise your hands above your head and leave them there.
....................................................................
   What's the five-day forecast for Baghdad?

   Two days.
....................................................................
   What do Miss Muffet and Saddam Hussein have in common?

   They both have Kurds in their way.
....................................................................
   What is the best Iraqi job?

   Foreign ambassador.
....................................................................
   Did you hear that it is twice as easy to train Iraqi fighter pilots?

   You only have to teach them to take off.
...................................................................
   How do you play Iraqi bingo?

   F-16 ...  B-52 ... F-18 ... A-10
...................................................................
   What is Iraq's national bird?

   Duck.
...................................................................
   What do Saddam Hussein and General Custer have in common?

   They both want to know where all those Tomahawks are coming from!
...................................................................
   Why does the Iraqi navy have glass bottom boats?

   So they can see their air force.
...................................................................

i hope you enjoy these...  
Iraq my brain to come up with them!!!

al

David,

I don't know if I fully understand your sarcasm, and perhaps I am reading things into it that you may have never intended, but I do find it somewhat offensive.

Are you suggesting that we should have a little Iraqi style justice over here to curb problems such as pornography and drug trafficking?
As far as letting my child go out and play in Iraq, I wouldn't even let my child be in Iraq in the first place, supervised or not.  I wouldn't want my kids to be tortured because of something that I said that Saddam may construe as not supporting his evil leadership.
I guess that Iraq does have their solution to prejudice, just kill those who you don't like (the gassing of the Kurds for example).
I am always amazed at how those who complain about Americans using so many natural resource based on our population always limit there focus to the consumption side.  As an advanced industrialized country, we may indeed consume large amounts of natural resources just because of the simple fact that through our great development efforts we are now able to harness and develop large amounts of resources that in the past had little value.  We create value and for this we are criticized?!?!?!  Remember that there are two halves to the equation, in order the produce we must first consume something.  Production creates value for others, (otherwise our production would never be consumed).  And what is this with depleting resources? God has provided for us abundantly. American innovation has only helped to best achieve the full potential of these resources while developing new ways for even increased utilization. No more than just a few percent of the Earth's ice-free land is occupied by humans, the rest remains untouched.  I often find that those who complain about Americans lack of responsible stewardship with our natural resources do so out of jealousy, and in my opinion Americans have actually been very innovative stewards of Gods gifts to us.
I would rather be overweight by choice than to lose weight by Saddam's poison gas diet.  Perhaps we should starve our population here, that could help with the obesity problem.  Instead of doing this, America has learned how to produce food efficiently.  In 1940 one American farmer was only able to feed 18 people, today each farmer is able to feed 5 to 10 times this amount of people.  This frees up much human potential that can be used for other productive endeavors.  If other countries followed the lead of American farmers they would be able to feed the world 10 times over.  By the way this would be a good thing.  If more countries followed our lead, there is no reason why world hunger couldn't be eliminated.  And I am sorry if any of the obesity that may be caused by this would offend you.
I thought Iraq used their toxic gases on their citizens, and didn't waste it in the atmosphere.  If we went through a comprehensive list of "pollutants" that we put in our atmosphere, I would suspect that I would have a very different opinion than you as to their negative effects.  However, I do believe that localized pollution in America has room for improvement in some areas.
Yes when we read my point of view, it is easy to understand why evil men like those in Saddam's regime totally disgust me.

Retread,
I was trying to prepare a response to Mr. Mauldin's ridiculous (and very un-factual diatribe) but you have done far better than I could have dreamed of.
BTW David,
Before you spout off about how IRAQ our country is so bad and cite crime/other statistics to back it up, maybe you ought to check them out.  According to the UN (an organization that should be precious to your New Age heart), the USA neither has the highest murder rate (1/11 of Columbia's, 1/5 of Russia's) or the highest overall crime rate in the world.  I suspect the same is true with your other off-the-wall statements.
Funny how you can rant and rave about George Geftakys and his ilk (who are not alleged to have murdered, gassed or tortured anyone), suggesting that all kinds of action be taken against them while you seem to think it's OK to give that murdering butcher of Baghdad a pass.
Amazing!

My opinion is that comparisons are useful to illustrate a point. In making a decision(or discovering truth), however, each situation/doctrine should be evaluated on its own merit.  E.g. pornography is wrong on its own merit, whether or nor Saddam Hussein is a tyrant leader, and vice versa. E.g. Buddhism is Buddhism and Christianity is Christianity; by comparing the two we will never be able to finally arrive at the conclusion of which one has the most brownie points.  Truth is truth is truth.
If I need to correct my kids, I ought to even though I am not yet perfect and ready for glory.
I can therefore support Bush & Blair in their campaign against Saddam Hussein, whether or not Nixon was right/wrong to send troops to Vietnam, or the A-bomb should/should not have been dropped in WWII.

MGov

Al----

Those are very good!! ;D ;D  I had also heard that
French tanks have rear view mirrors so they can watch
the battle.

--Joe

I heard that they also have a 6 speed transmission, 5 reverse gears and one forward gear (in case the enemy is behind them). :)

     i just want to keep things in perspective here:  

     The French PEOPLE are very courageous, as proved by the underground resistance in WWII.

     It is the French GOVERNMENT which has not performed bravely or intelligently.  The last good political/military move France made was to support the American Revolution.

THE POINT OF MY OFFENSIVE POST

Look at yourselves!  Doesn't it bother you to see civilians wailing over the dead bodies of their children? And why?  was this really neccessary? It honestly frightens me when I not only see this kind of calousness amongst our own U.S. citizens, but you guys proffess Christ!  What is wrong with this picture? WHAT WOULD JESUS DO?  Look at yourselves!  How do you think America is viewed by the world?   I will tell you A big bully slob who takes no regaurd for the lives of innocent people!  

David,

     Have you ever worked in an emergency room, or on a police department?
     i have, and i'll tell you it isn't callousness you're seeing here, it's a mental/emotional defense technique used to keep oneself from breaking under the strain of human suffering to which one is constantly exposed.

     What is the depth of your personal experience, by which you judge your peers?  How have you served your fellow man?

     Have you administered medical inoculations to the poor in another nation?  i have.  Let me tell you, David, the poor and oppressed in other countries are ALWAYS "wailing over the dead bodies of their children!"  The presence of a war doesn't change things all that much.

     If you are so upset with your neighbors, what do you want us to do?  Are you trying to convert us?  To what?

     Anyone can spew negative criticism.  That calls for no dimension of character or commitment.

     Instead of complaining, instruct us.  Lead us.  Show us by your example the way we should live.

Yes, I have worked in and around hospitals for many years, I also continue to work amongst the homeless. The calousness I am referring to is not on the battlefields but in the attitudes I see (lack of concern) in our media and this BB. Death by starvation/poverty results from peoples irresposiblity just as much as peoples aggression. Yes I have joined the Peace Corps and will be leaving next summer. There was no real and present danger that warrented what George Bush did. We were not under attack, this will no doubt be a constant issue of critisism in the coming months/years. Human lives were worth way more than his/our pride, arogance or what- I- am -still waiting- to -find -out  -Why did we go into IRAQ? While schools all across America face cutbacks he has spent  Billions of our tax dollars  needlessly.  Yes I am trying to convert you!  Look, see the real picture!  Step outside of youself/put yourself in their shoes! Realize that Bad Karma-"reaping what you sew" will come back on you!  Yes we are going to pay for this!  The world is going to hold us accountable!  I forsee many many years of continued retaliations from Arabs who think much like Bush and the American public.. I don't believe in "Us" and "Them" there is only one people!  We are all the same humanity! When we realize this then we can evolve beyond this "cycle of Sin"

David---

I know we could go back and forth on this issue for sure---
but I do remember seeing many many civilians wailing over there dead children. They were Kurdish Iraqis who had been bombed with nerve gas by their own leader. I have indeed seen scenes of unfortunate civilian casualties--but I have also seen large groups of Iraqis giving the "thumbs up" and cheering that they were being liberated. Several have stated that they cheer Saddam when the Mujadeen are around or they could be killed, but secretly despise him and pray for the day of liberation.

--Joe

Yes Joe delivering people from a tyrant is a noble thing! and the right thing! If any good can come out of this then Praise the Lord! I see this as the strongest justification for going in. Yet for some reason I suspect it isn't our true motive. Do you think so?  Why?  or why not?

David---

I really do believe out true motive for going in is to root
out terrorism and not for oil. If oil were the reason then
we would be very very stupid in endangering out relations with all of the other Middle eastern countries with vast supplies of oil. By entering Iraq we anger Iran and Syria especially, but also Saudi Arabia and many North African countries also which are mostly Muslim. Would we purposely want to alienate all of these nations which either supply us oil now or possibly in the future? I really don't think so. Of course, there are always ulterior motives, and I don't believe the whole operation to be squeaky clean, but I do believe the main thrust of it is for a noble purpose.

--Joe

David,

     First, please let me say that i'm honored to have made your acquaintance:  You have "put your money where your mouth is," so to speak.  i'm glad to know these things about your background and your intended future.  You will be a blessing to your fellow man.

     Yes, i knew to whom you were referring regarding attitudes.  The hospital, police, and foreign references were for illustrative purposes.  My contention is that many (not all-- not automatically) Christians view the world scene through the eyes of compassion, and do so with such intensity and consistency that a little comic relief is needed from time to time just to maintain sanity.  Joking about something does not necessarily preclude caring about it.

     And i agree that we cannot know, but can suspect, the motives of those in power in government, industry, the military and the financial world.  How impossible it seems, that anyone could be at the top of any of those structures and still hold good values.  With man it is impossible, but with God all things are possible.

     i don't know what i would have done in President Bush's place, because he has access to much information that we do not.  But i support the action being taken, because
(1.) i believe Iraq does possess weaponry capable of inflicting widespread death and suffering, and would not be shy about using it.  [This constitutes "clear & present danger"]  (2.) Saddam Hussein has demonstrated himself to be homicidal, unfeeling, dishonest, untrustworthy, out-and-out evil, and MUST be removed from power for the sake of the entire world.  (3.) Every possible caution is being taken to prevent/minimize loss of life, health, even property.
     As far as how the world looks at us, true leadership is never popular.  If the choice comes down to what is best vs. what is popular, it's a no-brainer.

     i also agree that there is only one humanity, in the sense that all lives are equal in value.  But differences, based on ethnicity, religion, political affiliation, and scores of other criteria DO still exist, and our simply not acknowledging them will not make them disappear.  We must teach what we believe while simultaneously dealing with the extant situations we face.

     As Joe points out, we could debate these points for the rest of our lives without arriving at satisfactory conclusions.  i prefer to think of these exchanges of views as times of sharing and learning, although not everyone will agree.  Personally, i gain a lot of insight from considering the ideas of others, and am grateful for the opportunity to do so.  It is not so important to be proven to have been right, as it is to learn what IS right and to be aligned with that rightness, even if it calls for the reversal of my position.  Thanks for your contributions.

Gratefully,
al Hartman

P.S.--  Maybe i blinked, David,
but did you just praise the Lord?!

The Americans remind me of the Ents (LOTR - Two Towers) with regard to the 'Liberation of Iraq' and other similar policies. (this is a compliment).

http://www.quintessentialwebsites.com/lordoftherings/movieshots_ttt/ttt_b3c04_script.htm#scene2

Qoute:
But you're part of this world!  Aren’t you?!

(The Ents look at one another, taken back)

You must help, please!  You must do something!



M

To date:  No Weapons Found!   Hundreds of innocent children, men,women civilians dead, wounded mamed psychologicly/mentaly scared for life.

                 The O   peration
                          I   raqi
                            L iberation

                cost the citizens of America 11 million $ a day

              While schools and libraries are laying off people.

Bush just signed a tax cut so that rich people can invest more of there money in tips.  7 U.S soldiers died this week from ambushes.  CAN BUSH REALY CONTINUE THIS?

To Date:

Millions of people liberated from a dictator who tortured
and imprisoned and gassed his own people.

Millions of dollars meant for the people of Iraq found
hidden and used to build vast palaces while citizens starved.

Great Hope for the people of Iraq to rebuild and really
live lives to the fullest. Freedom to millions of Kurdish
citizens gassed by Hussein.

Yes---American lives were lost and civilians did suffer---
but think of past wars when whole cities were bombed
with thousands upon thousands of civilian casualties.

I'm glad my tax dollars are being used to free a people long
held in bondage and fear. if you still think this was all done
for OIL then you have your head in the sand.


--Joe

Hey David,  I am one of those "rich" people who is going to get a very small amount of MY money back.

Do you know that I pay taxes so that the homeless can get medical care, but I am not allowed to go to their clinics?  15 year old girls, from bad families can get preganant, and I am responsible to pay for their pre-natal care.  But did you know that when my wife was pregnant, she was not allowed access to any of the services that an irresponsible 15 year old had?

This girl, who got knocked-up, will be eligible for free education, medical care, HUD housing, even a car!  My daughter will have to get a job in order to pay for school.  If she was to get pregnant at 15,  I would have to pay for it, because I am "rich."  I will also have to pay for her college.

I am not saying that these people should be denied care, what I am saying is that if I am paying for it, I should be able to benefit from the service I am forced to provide!  The fact is, I don't want to pay for them, any more than they want to pay for me!  Yet, they somehow think that their taxes should be lower, and mine higher.  Ever hear of the Boston Tea Party?

As for Iraq, I agree with you.  I think using the presence of WMD as the main reason to sell the war was a big mistake.  I think Bush should have just said it was part of the war on terror.   I think most people understand this, and are willing to give him a pass.  Then again, if we do find huge caches of WMD, there will still be people who protest the war.

Iraqi's can protest now, since we have liberated them, which should make our culture of protesters happy!

David, your analysis of the underhanded, less than truthfull, way in which we justified Operation Iraqi Freedom, is right on the money.

Had I been able to prosecute the war, I would have called it,  Operation TMC.  (Texaco, Mobil, Chevron) Then we could pump the oil, drive our SUV's, rebuild Iraq's infrastructure, and stabilize the region by stomping on radical Islam.

While I understand that many might be offended by this, at least it is honest and straightforward.   :)

Brent

I agree with Joe with regard to the Americans' involvement in liberating Iraq.

If it was for the oil, I don't think Bush would have done it this way, because he ran the risk of antagonizing 'brother' Arab nations by declaring war on Iraq.
Also, the money spent to date to liberate Iraq could have been used for oil instead.

My thought is that Iraq presented a threat to the nation and hence Bush chose to do something about it.  The Iraqi people benefitted by being liberated as well.

etc. etc. etc.

M

Um, first off, it was

O peration
  I raqi
   F reedom

not, Operation Iraqi Liberation, but that was cute.  I dunno what OIF is supposed to spell, tho :P

Secondly, ok even if no WOMD are found, um...what about the mass graves of 10,000+ plus bodies?
I guess it was ok for the dictator to do that with the rest of the world just standing by and saying, "Give peace a chance."  No doubt, Sodom himself coined the phrase.  
I mean, hey, how can he be going about mass-murdering thousands of men, women and children with all this fighting going on?  Can't you leave a man in peace?  Give peace a chance!

There is no doubt that the Iraqi people will gain the most from our war.  The UN was tenderly giving humanitarian aid to help the human suffering that came about as a result of sanctions....

and Hussein kept the money in vaults in his palaces!!

Tanks and bombs did far more to help Iraq's human population than the UN's corrupt humanitarian aid.  What's a humanitarian anyways?  Is that someone who eats only humans?

I just look at it like this:  We spent time, money and blood to help these people.  They can't pump their oil without our help, why not let us sell some of the oil?  It's not like the people ever got the benefit of it anyways, Hussein kept all the proceeds.

If we took over, and gave them jobs, they would be far better off than before.  Even better, we could modernize their oil industry and make it "ENVIRONMENTALLY SOUND" and then, after being repaid via cheap oil, return everything to their control, similiar to Japan, Phillipines, Panama, etc.

The way they pump oil over there now is an ecological disaster.  They need tremendous help in this area.

David, are most war protesters also of the green persuasion when it comes to the environment?  

Brent

I think that another hidden agenda of the United States in Iraq was to help Israel.
This counts as a point in our favor in God's eyes.

It was O. I. L. until someone on Bush's cab pointed out the acronym then it was changed to O.I.F.


Do I think it was for the Oil?  (If not then how are we going to pay for it?) Maby it was Bush's way to show the world we aren't going to be pushed around!? But of course this would come across as irrational and archaic, as an incredibly arrogant attitude towards the lives of innocent people.  Did it really need to be done? Do we now need to go into other countries?  Does this freek you out?  Russia, China France (Iran? ) etc... have WMD and we haven't gone in?  Why??? Doesn't this constitute " A Real and Present Danger"  Is anyone afraid that Bush might become Out of Controle?   Oh this is all for Isreal!  Oh O.K. then its allright then! :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X

Actually, David, as a history teacher, you may recall the period of time in our nation's history called the Cold War.  Russian had/has WMD pointed at us, and we did plenty about it.  However, there is a big difference between a country that has WMD, and doesn't use it, and a country that will light off the first one they get!

Radical Islam, or a guy like Hussein, with a nuke is a much worse picture than a guy like Putin with 10,000 nukes.  Putin has some rational thought,  whereas these others are so blinded by their hatred of the Jews, and the Great Satan, that they are NOT rational.

Each situation is different, and to simplify it, as you have done, is not totally honest.  Of, course, I do grant you that the way the war has been conducted thus far is also not totally honest, so some of your points are well taken.

Brent

Somebody slap him before he goes silly.  >Smack<  Where's Patton when you need him.  

David, just answer a few questions:

1.  Were there or were there not graves found with thousands of dead bodies?  Bodies of men, women and children that Saddam had executed on a whim.

2.  Were there or were there not hundreds of men who had their ears surgically cut off because Saddam said so?

3.  Did they (the Iraqi people) or did they not live in constant fear of what Saddam might do to them?

4.  If the US didn't come in and kick Saddam's butt, would Saddam still be doing the same kinds of things today?  

Now I ask you, were the Iraqi people better off under Saddam? Or was it worth it for American soldiers to lay down their lives so that the Iraqi people could be set free?

Some Iraqi people got killed in the process.  Yes, that is lamentable.  But they would have been killed by Sadam eventually or else live lives in constant fear.  Compared to the number of Iraqi's killed by Sadam, the number who died in the war was miniscule!
Use your head, man.

"Those who would give up liberty for safety deserve neither."
"The Tree of Liberty must be periodically fertilized with the blood of patriots and tyrants. "
"Live free or die."

Arthur I agree that human rights were at stake and this (as I have said ) is the strongest justification.  Yet it doesn't constitute a "Clear and present Danger" to the U.S. which Bush needed to declare a "Crusade"  er a war! If it is true that we are there for the good of the people then why hasn't Bush turned it over to the U.N.? Why haven't we apologized to the Iraqi people for putting this guy in power?  Oh by the way do you realize that under Saddams government women had the right to wear western clothing?  Get an education?  Hold down a job?  A tremendous contrast to the nations around Iraq. It doesn't justify the wrongs he did I just think its interesting. I see Bush turning America into a dominating imperialstic power. Does this make you feel more secure?  Not me!  I see it as a step backwards. I think there were a thousand options to the problem that would have been much more civilized. We don't need Patton to continue the cycle of war. we need solutions

Ok, sorry for being a little patronizing (or pattonizing? :)
I must say that I don't really trust governments because...well, they are run by people.  And we know what happens when people get power.

But in answer to your question: "...then why hasn't Bush turned it over to the U.N.?"
I would say two reasons.  

1.  The UN was opposed to the US going into Iraq.  Now that the US has quickly gotten the victory, the UN has NO BUSINESS thinking they can just waltz in and share in the kudos.  I'd say since the US pay the sweat and blood, they should call the shots.  The UN can keep their noses out of it, just like they did b/f the war began.  
2.  You can't trust the UN.  They are corrupt to the hilt.


If you read the articles about what went on over there, I don't think you'd find it interesting.  Things like that aren't interesting when Hitler is in power and your neighbors get taken in the night by secret police so that they can collect 10 bucks for bringing them in and 40 bucks for a confession.

America being an imperial power. Interesting.  Maybe it will happen, who knows.  I doubt it. Even it did happen, it would fall.  There always is a rise and a fall.  It looks to me like it's rather on the fall--no more gold standard, slaughter of the innocents (abortion) and homosexuality is openly embraced and practised.  Looks like a Sodom-like judgement is due.  Yet there are still people who pray in the country so I guess that is staying God's hand.
"What if there are 10 righteous Lord?  Far be it from you to sweep away the righteous with the unrighteous."

Perhaps you may not remember this, but when Reagan was President a guy named Khaddafy was spear-heading terrorism around the world and threatening us to "cross this line in the sand". Reagan sent jets and bombers(France at that time also was agaisnt this and would not
let us use their airspace for the flight). We bombed Libya and actually hit Khaddafy's palace.

"Oh---how could the U.S.A> do this? It's horrendous!!" yelled the anti-war(anti-any use of force) element. But you know what? We never heard from Khaddafy again. Libya is still suspected of sponsoring terror in an uderground manner, but we literally shut Khaddafy up and stopped him in his tracks. He literally had the daylights scared out of him.

Sometimes you have to do this---and it had to be done in Iraq too.


--Joe

You know, I heard that the CIA hooked Khaddafy up with a nice little bungalow and whatever else he wanted for life on the condition that he'd behave.    :P

Let me get this right, Basicly you admit the world sucks!  
And our form of government is only the lesser of evils.. Is this because you believe in a hope- so-some-day-heaven?  Where people who are homosexual are not?


    PLEASE, PLEASE, GET UP OFF YOU KNEES!

                                                      BONO

Um, not sure exactly what you are saying.  Yes the world is not a nice place because the hearts of men are evil.  As for governments, "the powers that be are of God."  If I'm reading it correctly, God gives laws and structure to our society so that we may live peaceable lives.  But of course, fallible men are there in the goverments and so there will always be corruption.  Also, Satan has some pull too for the time being.
As for homosexuals--yeah they'll be there if they repent of their homosexuality and humbly put their trust in Jesus instead.  But then I guess you wouldn't call such a person a homosexual anymore.  Such a one is born again and a new creation in Christ Jesus, no longer bent on such perversion.

I don't think I want to know who Bono is.

Hi Everyone!
  There are two things we are told never to discuss and that is religion and politics.  It appears we have successfully recovered from being oversubmissive victims as we refuse to take that advice and devote an entire thread to the politics of the war! ;)
  Okay, just to show I can have a political opinion too I will answer some of David's liberal protest. (This will also demonstrate my great courage, for I must join the pro-war crowd against David ;) ;) ;).
   We did not put Saddam in power he was put in power via the Baath party that came from Syria.  This party, and his regime, were a socialist party that had close ties to the former and present Soviet Union.
  We did support Saddam in his war against Iran, the same way we supported Stalin against Nazi Germany in WW 2.  This does not mean we supported the Iraqi govt. anymore than the Soviet govt. of Stalin.
   France built a nuclear reactor for Saddam (which Israel took out--praise God!), Germany built the bunkers etc., the tanks/planes/weapons of Iraq were from Russia.  These countries were the real supporters of Iraq and the ones' trying to prop up the Saddam regime.
   Saddam owed billions to the govt's above and with Saddam's departure they will never see their cash. :'(
   We don't need Iraqi oil and the war was certainly not about that.  If we wanted it they would have sold us all we wanted.  We are spending billions to rebuild the country and to give the wealth from oil back to the people there.  Much, much cheaper to just do business with Saddam without removing him.        
  In Europe and Japan after WW 2 we demonstrated the same gracious and magnanimous rebuilding effort toward those who had just tried to destroy us.  Truly the USA is unique in it's attitude toward it's enemies in the annals of history.
                      God Bless,  Mark

Arthur---

Bono is the singer for U2.  I believe what he was
really saying though with "please, please, get off
of your knees" is to not worship HIM. I could be
wrong though.

--Joe

Oh, ok, well that's not so bad :)

     It never ceases to amaze me the way a thread like this can remain dormant for over a month, and then one little post can bring on a hailstorm of posts that takes me half the evening to get through!  (OK-- YOU can do it in five minutes...  but i'm a slow reader).
     But it surely is interesting.

     David, you'll never convince me that you don't miss the fellowhip of the saints and want to be convinced once again to follow Christ.  Else why would you keep coming back here with posts guaranteed to be opposed, when you could take your opinions to BBs that would agree with you?
     If you say that you do it out of concern for us & to lead us from the error of our ways, i say that such a caring comes from the love of God that is in your heart through the presence of Jesus Christ.  You're just misdirecting it, pending your getting straightened out with him.

     Sorry, Brother, but if you're going to hang out here, you'll have to put up with the likes of me...  i love you too much to give up on you!

al Hartman

The Americans are the 'designated' police-men of the world.
Saudi Arabia sought the help of the Americans which resulted in Operation Desert Storm (ODS).

Bush is a man of God, though he is not infallible, and he has to trust the people he delegates to.

What benefits the Americans benefits the world.

Mark C that was an excellent summary; I agree.

Al, you're on the wrong thread.  :) :)

David M  I agree with Al even though he is on the wrong thread.

Lord bless,
M