AssemblyBoard

Hello, everyone,

  I hope there's not already a thread on this that I've missed. I was wondering if people would be interested in sharing stories of people and things that have helped them heal. I can think of SOOO many people and things I'm thanking God for. Here's just one:

   Libby Seymoure, who had the courage to leave the Assembly and then demonstrated to me that leaving the Assembly wasn't the same as leaving the Lord. Her kindness and hospitality, as well as her true walk with Jesus helped me to realize that the Assembly wasn't God's only "house."

  I hope the rest of you will share some of your stories!

  Heather

When I first left I didn't want to go to church, I had enough doctrine to last me a lifetime. I didn't want to hear about the do's and don'ts of being a christian. What I really wanted was to see Jesus. As a little kid who grew up in a church I always loved to hear about Jesus. A friend (non-assembly) suggested we start trying out churches, if we didn't like them, we would just leave. It reminded me that I had control over what I listened to. It might sound kinda dorky but I didn't have to sit there and disagree, I could actually leave....

People who helped me: Brent & Suzi for encouraging me to write about what happened. Aaron & Tanya who didn't push. There were others. Writing and talking has helped me to heal, especially to hear what others went thru, it pulls the pieces together.

Heide

Thanks for sharing, Heide.

Here's another one for me:

My fitness instructors. They accepted me and were kind to me. They treated me like a regular human being and helped me to get used to normal human emotions and interactions, rather than polished, proper Assembly ones. They also motivated me and encouraged me to take care of myself. There's a perception out there that all aerobics instructors are skinny, twiggy snobs out to give all of us unfit peons a heart attack to jazzy music. I've found just the opposite to be true. I've known these women to be incredibly compassionate and understanding with very overweight men and women. I've seen people whose weight was a serious health risk completely change under the gentle (if sometimes bubbly) touch of these women. I wasn't overweight when I started, but I definitely lost a lot of emotional weight as my instructors cheered me on to a higher level of achievement.  8)

You'll probably never see this, but thanks to Sarah, Katrina, Jenn, Rene, Elizabeth, Megan and Shelley! Are you feeling it? Whooo-hooo!  ;D

Heather,
Kannst du Deutsch? Ich habe ihr Profile gesehen und du hast ein deutsches Mail. Bist du aus Deutschland? If you can't speak German, I just asked if you were from Germany and if you can speak German.

  Ja, Matt, ich kann deutsch. Ich habe dir eine private Email geschickt, denn ich denke, es bringt den anderen wenig, unsere deutschen Gespräche zu lesen.  ;)
  Frage mich gerade, was sie denken werden, wenn sie das zwinkern sehen.  ;) Vielleicht sagen Heather und Matt was geheimes!!  :) :) :) :)  ;D

Viel Spaß!
Heather

                                        Uh-oh!


                   They haff vays to make us talk!!!

  Well, gee, I guess no one else wants to talk about this stuff.  ???

  I can still think of lots more people and things I'm grateful for.   :D Here's one: my friend Linda. Linda was in a similar group when she was my age. Now, she's about my mom's age. She shared her story with me. It took her something like twelve years of running from God before she had experienced enough healing to return to the active pursuit of Christ. Now, she is one of the most seeking people I know, constantly studying to know more of Him.
  She helped me to give myself time to heal. She told me it was OK if I didn't go to church for a while, wasn't able to read the Bible without hearing GG, etc. She gave me permission to be human again, and I must say it is a joy to know God as a human being rather than having to be a "saint" to know God.

  Peace and love,

  Heather

 ::)Healing happens over time, you take the good from the assembly, like the fellowship of the brethren, the ministry that was honest and thought provoking from other brethren than the Geftakys clan and not to mention the ability to turn to any book in the Bible in turbo time thanks to Mr. inconsiderate George G. Since alot of you are going through the same thing, you can talk and grieve together, It was different leaving alone, I found unconditional love in people that left before me and we have remained close friends since then. Finally you get a hold of other ministries, I listen to a lot of Christian Radio, so I hear all views, the Calvary Chapel station So. Ca. The Wave 107.9 and Focus on The Family was a great gift to me and brought on a lot of healing.  welcome to a normal life. 8) 8) ;)

 ;D Just one more thing, start living again! Get over it, move on. You have to see your time in the assembly as though you were on a trip and you accidently landed in Iraq, so you talked like they do, ate like the Iraqies, drank like them, and had coffee enema's like they do, but now you are where you are supposed to be so do what you had planned! Be yourself(not a cookie cutter Christian) be who God made you to be. make new friends! Go after your goals and achieve them, dreams are a gift from the Lord he is for you. Some of you may think it is to late. Its not, Ella Fitzgerald received her Bachelors Degree at age 74, I know a Doctor that graduated med school at age 45. Life is to short to keep crying over this.  "Get busy Living or get busy dying" (the Shawshank Redemption" movie) 8) 8) 8) 8) ;D ;)

I was listening to oldies today, and this song hapenned to be playing.  It's a love song, but if you kind of spiritualize it, it has a lot of meaning to a lot of us.

"Lotta Love" by Neil Young

It's gonna take a lotta love
To change the way things are.
It's gonna take a lotta love
Or we won't get too far.

So if you look in my direction
And we don't see eye to eye,
My heart needs protection
And so do I.

It's gonna take a lotta love
To get us thru the night.
It's gonna take a lotta love
To make things work out right.

So if you are out there waitin'
I hope you show up soon,
'Cause my heart needs relatin'
Not solitude.

Gotta lotta love
Gotta lotta love.

It's gonna take a lotta love
To change the way things are.
It's gonna take a lotta love
Or we won't get too far.

It's gonna take a lotta love
To change the way things are.
It's gonna take a lotta love
Or we won't get too far.


M.

jessica;
I agree.  :)
I've concluded that to get over what has happened and to go on with life is a step of faith.  To believe God is bigger and greater than all this world or people has to through at us is to walk by faith.
God has not played any tricks on us or lied to us.
He can be trusted .  :) :) :)
Yes, "it's gonna take a lotta love," Gods love!

hmmm....Heather....wie sollen wir ihn (Al hartman) zwingen, mit uns zu sprechen?

Ugh!!
Isn't it correctly spelled: Sprechen Sie Deutsch?
 :)

Ja, Frau Thonen...das is rite. Danke für korrekting Herr Hartman!

FANTASTIC!

Since Matt was nice enough to quote me, and also added an endorsement, I decided to remove the original to reduce redundancy.

 ;)

Hi All ! :)
  Steve:  Very good idea re. throwing out all that you were taught in the Assembly and starting over again.  This does not mean that your time in the Assembly was a waste of time, as one certainly can retain an awareness of what to avoid now!
  Matt:  I never thought that Neil Young would be able to instruct me re. the love of God, but it certainly does fit via a little adaption.  It just goes to show that as humans we all share the same needs, but don't recognize that God is the one who can fulfill that need.
  JessicaLopez!  Wow, a movie star used to be in the Assembly and posts here on the BB! ;)
   Your invitation to find healing by learning to enjoy the liberty we have in Christ is a good one, but one that is not so easy for many.  Steve had to make an effort to renew his mind, as he was controlled by his previous instruction to see things in a particular way.  His getting free was accomplished by considerable effort on his part.
  We learn things, not only in a cognitive way, but with our emotions as well.  The way we "felt" about our experience often takes precedence over what the facts were.  To find healing for our emotions takes time and reflection for many.  There are some that can't feel comfortable in any church setting as it now triggers negative emotional responses.
  For those who substituted the love of God, for the love and acceptance of the Group, a great feeling of emptiness will insue.  I have been contacted by ex-Assemblyites who, while knowing the Assembly was off-base, were fighting the emotional desires to return to the group.  One individual, whom I have not heard from in a long time, probably has gone back.  The classic cultic method of "love bombing" of members trying to leave is effective in bringing back, sometimes, the most clear headed member.
  Those seeking healing must realize that they were victims of the manipulation of their emotional life by a false presentation of the Christian life/ relationships.  After we identify the false manipulative way we then need to discover the way to satisfy those needs in the way that Christ has provided.  This is not an easy process for many and we should recognize how difficult it can be for them.
   I am happy that you have found freedom and healing from your Assembly past!    God Bless,  Mark

What are you trying to say? Why did you address that thought specifically to me?

I'm sorry Matt :)
  I thought that you posted the Neil Young song, but as I read back I discovered it was MGov. that posted it.  
  Please accept my humble apologies :-[

                                God bless,  Mark

     Just a note of clarification about Mark's earlier post today.  Mark said:
     "For those who substituted the love of God, for the love and acceptance of the Group, a great feeling of emptiness will insue."  Mark went on to explain his point, but i don't want the opening statement of the paragraph to confuse anyone.
      The Love of God is never going to be a disappointment to anyone.  God IS love, and God DOES love us powerfully and effectually.  "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?  Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?...  Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us." Romans 8:35, 37
     But some of us, engaged in extracting ourselves from the bondage of false teaching, have run into "linguistic" problems.  That is, we have been taught false meanings for the words of spiritual truth.  The very language of God's truth has been altered in its presentation to us.
     For example, many of us identified the sense of warmth, acceptance and security we felt within the society of the assembly as actually BEING the love of God-- we were "programmed" to think that.  Personally, i have never found a feeling to equal that of an assembly worship.  
     So, in leaving such behind us and attempting to grasp firsthand, perhaps for the first time, the reality of God's love, we may tend to believe that the absence of the familiar feelings mean that we have drifted away from the Light.  Reject that thought!  It is the devil's lie.
     God's Love may or may not be accompanied by feelings.  But what feelings may come to us are incidental to the truth.  The Love of God is FAR greater than a mere fickle feeling-- it is a guaranteed promise.  "Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins." I John 4:10
     We must, as Stephen suggested (below), start over again to read the word of God for what it truly says and not simply what someone told us it means.  We can ask, and trust, God to show us the truth.  "What shall we then say to these things?  If God be for us, who can be against us?  He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him freely give us all things?" Romans 8:31-32

al Hartman

P.S.:  Mark, you have the wrong J-Lo.  The actress is Jennifer;  the Sister is Jessica (who probably gets that a lot).

Thanks AL :)!
  Your clarification of my previous point re. the love of God was right on and I thank you for making it.
  I guess I'm not as up on Hollywood starlets as I should be.  I seem to be apologizing a great deal this weekend!  I'm sorry Ms. Lopez for incorrectly ascribing celebrity status to you.  I assumed it was a "stage name" and it just goes to show that your global moderator is human after all ;) ;) :-[ :-[
                               God Bless,  Mark

That was an ok song MGov. Never heard of it before though, probably written before I was born? Well here is something a little more up to date for people of my generation. It reminds me of some of the struggles that people are having finding a place to worship after their assemblies have disbanded (or they decided to leave their assembly):

"Somewhere I Belong" by Linkin Park (on their new cd, meteora, I recommend getting it, it's great)

(When this began)
I had nothing to say
And I get lost in the nothingness inside of me
(I was confused)
And I let it all out to find/
That I’m not the only person with these things in mind
(Inside of me)
But all the vacancy the words revealed
Is the only real thing that I’ve got left to feel
(Nothing to lose)
Just stuck/ hollow and alone
And the fault is my own, and the fault is my own

[Chorus]
I wanna heal, I wanna feel what I thought was never real
I wanna let go of the pain I’ve felt so long
(Erase all the pain till it’s gone)
I wanna heal, I wanna feel like I’m close to something real
I wanna find something I’ve wanted all along
Somewhere I belong

And I’ve got nothing to say
I can’t believe I didn’t fall right down on my face
(I was confused)
Looking everywhere only to find
That it’s not the way I had imagined it all in my mind
(So what am I)
What do I have but negativity
’Cause I can’t justify the way, everyone is looking at me
(Nothing to lose)
Nothing to gain/ hollow and alone
And the fault is my own, and the fault is my own

[Repeat Chorus]

I will never know myself until I do this on my own
And I will never feel anything else, until my wounds are healed
I will never be anything till I break away from me
I will break away, I'll find myself today

[Repeat Chorus]

I wanna heal, I wanna feel like I’m somewhere I belong
I wanna heal, I wanna feel like I’m somewhere I belong
Somewhere I belong

Matt,

     i turned 60 last August, and some consider me a dinosaur.  (My kids are still urging me to join the 20th century!)
     But i understand the feelings that the song writer
is describing.  i have been there-- it's a real place.  Thank God for meeting us there and delivering us from it!
     Thanks for sharing it, Matt.

al Hartman

You're right on all two counts:
1.  It was written before you were born; but then I was married before you were born... I'm not as old as Al though.
2.  This song is better, especially on the Healing thread.

Thanks for sharing it with us (did Al already say that? The short term memory goes first.)

I plan to listen to it in the near future.

God bless,
M

Poem taken from Sept 19 devotional reading 'Streams in the Desert'

I walked a mile with Pleasure,
She chattered all the way;
But left me none the wiser
For all she had to say.

I walked a mile with Sorrow,
And ne'er a word said she;
But, oh, the things I learned from her
When sorrow walked with me.

I just did a search for "Linkin Park" on MSN and was able to watch the video for "Somewhere I Belong" and listen to the whole song.  

Certainly not of my generation (left for you to guess - I too am not as old as Al ;).)  However, I could relate to the words and for my daughters generation, something they could relate to (I actually cried during the video-but then again, I am a sap  ;))

Music has been the biggest thing that has helped me heal from having been involved in the Assembly.  I was raised in a very musical family (my mother taught Guitar for 35 years-and I started taking guitar when I was 7) and the lack of quality music that could have ministered to my soul for the 15 years I was involved in the Assembly, left a big hole in my soul.

The contemporary Christian music that is sung in many churches today is both up-lifting and has ministered to my soul greatly.  Most Sundays I am crying through worship, filled with worship for my savior.  Music (done well), in my never to be humble opinion, ministers to the soul in a way that the pompous prayers of the saints and hymns sung like a dirge could never accomplish.  

Does it sound like I have a bias as to the Assembly worship style?  Just my opinion - everyone has their likes and dislikes - some like vanilla and some like chocolate - but it doesn't make one bad and the other good - I'm just glad I don't have to believe "the lie" anymore that was fed to us in the Assembly that the "worldly churches" style of worship was less than spiritual.

 8) 8) 8) 8) I hadn't been on-line in a while so I must admit , I did't realize that many saints knew who Jennifer Lopez was, that whole sheltered life thing, so I cracked up over the confusion. I went on a job interview a couple of years ago, the dept. manager took me around the dept. introducing me as Jennifer Lopez when we were about to close and I corrected him I didn't get the job! oh well it was to far to drive to anyways. I go home to mamma and she calls me Jennifer because I have a sister named Jennifer (not Lopez though) so  call me anything, just don't call me Bob. Jessica ;D ;D ;D ;D

Kimberly---

Thanks for your post. I like the group Linkin Park
very much and I'm an old guy. :D I wanted to mention
that while in the Assembly George taught that worship
should be "spiritual" and not "soulish". This led to a
mindset of thinking that if you "felt" anything it was soulish.
     I remember George totally shutting down a beautiful song (I've forgotten the title--it wasn't from the Assembly book of hymns). It was a song where the brothers could sing one part and the sisters another. It was absolutely beautiful, but to George it was soulish. He literally stopped the whole Assembly during worship when we started to sing this song and began singing something different. We never sang the song again. I felt that was so amazing because the Spirit should lead the worship, not George.
        When I began to attend Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa we sang many beautiful songs, many of them very emotional. They would often bring me to tears.
         And just what is being "Spiritual"? Some of my most sincere and direct prayers to God have been one's where I simply fell upon my knees and began to weep to God, not the one's where I "sound" so very Spiritual.  EX: "Oh our great exalted and most Heavenly Father who sits in the highest heavens, holier than holy....etc.--not that there is anything wrong with greatly exalting God, but sometimes I think crying to God as a Father from the heart of a little son is far more spiritual than any great exalted prayer. I believe this also applies to music.
          Kimberly---you mentioned learning the guitar. Have you ever heard of a guitar player named Steve Morse? He is one of my favorite guitarists. He mainly plays rock or jazz fusion instrumentals, but he is also great at any style of guitar playing. You should check him out if you love guitar playing.

Take care and God bless you,  Joe

If you want quality uplifting music I recommend:
Michael W. Smith's Worship DVD with 5.1 surround sound.

Joe - Thank you for your response.  I played acoustic guitar and I was good at classical, enjoyed people like James Taylor and his ilk.  My mother was in a Bluegrass band and though I didn't enjoy that music, my mother taught me in the folk genre of music.  I was never very progressive in my musical interests, I don't particularly like rock, but again it's just a preferance, I don't think there is anything wrong with the music.  So I took your challenge and looked into Steve Morse and listened to a clip.  Not my cup of tea, though I can appreciate his technique.  Isn't it wonderful to realize that we can have different musical tastes and it doesn't make one right and the other wrong?  I love GRACE!!!!

MGov - I love Michael W. Smith!

Kimberley,
I couldn't agree more.  The worship at our church is contemporary and often moves me in the same way you describe. I often hear that saints who have left the assembly wish that they could worship out loud in their new places, but quite frankly, I enjoy the very personal and quiet worship in my soul to the Lord much more than I thought I would. The assembly had such a warped view of music and how God can use it in one's life.
Anyway, thanks for your comments.
Pat   :D :D

When you think about it, our style of worship in the Assembly had it's setbacks.  We criticized choirs and singers because they could draw attention to themselves, yet how many of us were guilty of performing for the saints (and perhaps the leaders, if we wanted to pursue marriage) when we prayed?  I know I was.

What it comes down to is not necessarily the style of worship, but the state of our hearts when we participate.

Jack

Jack - amen brother!

QUESTION:

             Isn't ANYBODY older than al?????

al

I don't know, Al-
We're the age that if we hear the Dixie Chicks on the radio singing 'Landslide', it makes us cringe and long for Stevie Nicks & Fleetwood Mac.
My husband is a musician.  We're starting to wake up to the contemporary christian music scene feeling like Rip Van Winkle, especially in a worship setting.  And the first few weeks after we left the assembly, I constantly listened to old Accapella tapes, 'Set Me Free', 'Rescue', 'Saved, Like the Criminal on the Cross', and all those...they helped renew my mind.  
Becky

I know I'm not! ;D

ANSWER:

        Good Question.

Me

My mother.

Al---

The oldest guy in America actually just died this week--
he was 113. You don't have him beat do you? ;D ;D

--Joe

Tom,
     Thanks-- i've always been able to count on you
in a pinch!


Stephen,
     Looks like i can count on you FOR a pinch!


Tim, MGov,
     Thanks (i guess).


Becky,
     i am soooo pre-Fleetwood Mac & Stevie Nicks!  i was teethed on the Dorsey Bros., Bing Crosby, Rosemary Clooney, Nat "King" Cole, Ellington, Basie, Perry Como, etc.
     The music of my misspent youth was by Bill Haley & The Comets, The Ink Spots, Mills Bros., Fats Domino, Buddy Holley, The Kingston Trio, The Four Seasons, Chubby Checker & Elvis.
     But i know what you mean about playing catch-up on contemporary songs of faith.  Some of today's spiritual lyrics seem sincere, & some seem empty, but for my personal expressions in song, i still prefer the old hymns.  i listen to the newer material, but sometimes i have to work at not disliking it.  The main thing is to keep our eyes on the Lord, whatever that entails, and to not resent anyone for choosing a different form of expression.

Gratefully,
al Hartman

(sings at tops of lungs in shrill voice: Sherry...Sher-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-ery Sherry baby, Sher-er-ery can you come out tonight?)

I like Bach organ music.  I remember Pete Lentine had a whole bunch of tapes by E. Power Biggs.  We used to listen to them during our hour long drive from the San Fernando Valley to Fullerton on Sundays.

Once I went with Pete Lentine, Rob Coen and some others to a concert to hear E. Power Biggs play.  It was a Rheinberger concerto for organ and orchestra (or two? I don't remember).  Afterwards we went through the line to greet E. Power Biggs.  He wasn't shaking anyone's hands because he was having trouble with arthritis.  Rob Coen asked him if he knew the Lord.  The people standing next to him gasped at the breach of etiquette and were saying, "What did he say!"  I wonder whether we will meet him in heaven because of Rob's question.

Yes, that song is excellent. The whole album is pretty good. This cd is better than their first.

I heard that the MacDonald farm computer interface is called the EIE IO.

Good one Stephen.

Here's another.

There was this guy travelling from LA to San Diego.  When he got on the freeway he saw a sign that said San Diego Left.  So he turned around and went back. :)

I think this forum of communicating is great! Having to write down our thoughts before posting has the advantage of 'time' to think out what we are going to say, and the benefit of prayer before communicating. Our thoughts need not be communicated 'on the spur of the moment', but after careful consideration in order to edify others.

1Cor 14:12 So also you, since you are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek to abound for the edification of the church.
Eph 4:29 Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, that it may give grace to those who hear.

Oh, if we only we (San Diego) could leave and put more distance between us and LA. I was at LAX airport yesterday...what a zoo trying to navigate Tom Bradley terminal. It took me 4.5 hrs to drive home because Californias don't know how to drive in the rain.

Matt,

I thought it never rained in Southern California.

(or maybe that one's before your time too).

M

Yes, before I was born, but everybody in So. Cal knows that song! They play it regularly when it rains. I guess to prove the song wrong?

Yes, last weekend I saw X2 and Identity. They were both good, but for different reasons. X2 is good for special effects. Identity was better though because it has a substantial plot. I like movies with a plot unless it's a comedy like Zoolander (go and rent that). Oh, X2 was much better than the first X-men.
And, yes, I like Newsboys, but I don't listen to them that much. This new church that I'm going to plays Newsboys songs, Sonic Flood, Third Day, that kind of music, so it feels like a concert.

author: H.H.Booth

LORD, through the Blood of the Lamb that was slain,
Cleansing for me,
From all the guilt of my sins now I claim
Cleansing from Thee,
Sinful and black though the past may have been,
Many the crushing defeats I have seen,
Yet on Thy promise, O Lord, now I lean,
Cleansing for me.

From all the doubts that have filled me with gloom, Cleansing for me,
From all the fears that would point me to doom,
Cleansing for me.
Jesus, although I may not understand,
In childlike faith now I put forth my hand,
And through Thy Word and Thy grace I shall stand
Cleansed by Thee.

From all the care of what men think or say,
Cleansing for me,
From ever fearing to speak, sing, or pray,
Cleansing for me.
Lord, in Thy love and Thy power make me strong,
That all may know that to Thee I belong;
When I am tempted let this be my song
Cleansing for me.

That's really beautiful.

I remember our first year out of the Assembly.  Suzie and I looked at eachother and said, "I just want to hear about the love of God for a year."  Well, that's exactly what happened, and it was wonderful.  ....Still is.

Brent

This morning the Lord taught me a lesson thet I would like to share for your edification.

Someone (not a family member or anyone from this BB), in whom I had invested many hours ministering to, treated me harshly. It hurt, but then I thought of how many times I myself have spurned the Lord after ALL He has done for me.  The Lord comforted me with Booth's hymn (that I posted).  Brent pointed out a section from verse 1, but verse 3 was what came to mind at the time.

Matt, if I was a LB(LBW) &/or worker who had ministered to the saints out of genuine love and care for their souls, I would not want a website to proclaim the glories of my labor of love;  the PHARISEES sought that and they had their reward.  I would rather have the Lord vindicate me in His time.

Brent, I used to visit GA.com and I think that what's possibly lacking is that many are sharing their stories, but their stories are incomplete if they do not also share how the Lord met them.
After putting my confidence in GG, TG, Bros. A,B,C,D,E,M,R and whatever other initial I have forgotten, I cannot now put my confidence in Ga.com as being the 'road to healing'.  It almost seems to me that the new 'assembly fad' is repentance letters.  Some of those letters are accurate(possibly) in their content, but the fruit of repentance is not fully visible in the individuals(this is not a blanket statement). I rarely visit GA.com(AR.com) anymore; I spend most of my online time on this BB.

M

Yes, I agree.  However, not all of the stories follow what you say.  Some, perhaps half of them do.  Have you read my book?  It clearly describes how the Lord met me, and there are others as well.  


GA/AR.com is NOT, repeat, IS NOT the 'road to healing."  It never was, and never shall be.  Jesus Christ is The Way, The Truth, and The Life.  He is The Way to healing.

GA.com's function is along these lines:

2 Cor 10:1  Now I, Paul, myself am pleading with you by the meekness and gentleness of Christ--who in presence [am] lowly among you, but being absent am bold toward you.  2  But I beg [you] that when I am present I may not be bold with that confidence by which I intend to be bold against some, who think of us as if we walked according to the flesh.  3  For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh.  4  For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds,  5  casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,  6  and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled.

In many epistles, there is a cataloging of "mistakes," or sin.  Certainly the Corinthian epistles fit this mold.  The reason is that before there can be building up, there often must be a casting down.

Again, let there be no mistake, I have never held out the website as a road to healing.  I do think, however, that many people have found the road through the website.  Others found healing quite apart from the site, and I'm sure a few have been hindered.

However, imagine what things would be like, in hindsight, if none of this had never happened, and George was getting ready to teach summer school... dictating his notes to a young woman, teaching unintelligible messages....

I haven't read anything on the new website, except the theological articles.  I don't go back and re-read all the stuff from the collapse.  However, to NOT read it at all is irresponsible.

Also, people are free to write their stories the way they want to.  Perhaps you could write yours and emphasize the blessing you received?  It would certainly be a nice addition, don't you think?  I never edited out the kind parts of anyone's story, I usually corrected puctuation, and published them as-is.  Anyone is free to write their own story, even start their own website!

Paul took pains to warn his friends, he just does a much better job at pointing them to Christ than I, or Steve Irons does.  That's why I encourage people to read their bibles, and get under sound teaching.  (not GG's)  

Jesus is The Way.

Brent

Brent,

Got it. (quote from the Court Jester).

10-4.

M

PS. I do not plan to write my story in the near future.

Here's another little analogy, coutesy of Andante, my Rawson 30.  While beating on a port tack, with waves on the port bow, reefed main and full jib, I thought of the following:

Picture in your mind's eye, the grandcanyon.  On the North side is a place called "Healing."  On the South, a place called "Deception and Bitterness."  In between is the chasm, represented by the Grand Canyon.

The goal is to get from Deception (D), to Healing (H).  They are exactly a mile apart.

People who live in D, are weak and malnourished, and suffer from bad eyesight, and poor hearing.  However, they have heard that these problems can be cured by the physician, who lives in H.

Some people, keep their eyes on H, and then seek a way to climb down to the floor of the canyon.  There are numerous hazards, dead ends, loose rocks, and slippery slopes on the way down.  Should they make it to the bottom in one piece, which is not easy, they need to negotiate to torrent that flows at the bottom.  Should they make it across this, (many have drowned) they need to scale the wall on the far side, which has even more loose boulders and hazards than the south wall.  Very few people have ever been successful at this route.  It takes mountain climbing, swimming, and endurance.  On top of that, it is highly dangerous.  This route is attractive, because people can see the end from the starting point, and it looks so easy, so close, and so quick.

An old man stands by, and warns people that this isn't a good way, but most people don't listen.  They point at H, and say, "It's right over there, old fool.  Maybe you can't do it, but I can.  How dare you try to discourage me."

The other route takes a person Eastward, along the South rim, for 50 miles.  After about 2 days of walking, people who take this route can't see their destination any longer.  They begin to wonder if they were foolish to try this way, when so many were taking the "easy" way.  But, an old man, who claimed to be a doctor, swore that he had been there and back told them that this "long way," was the only way to healing.  The traveller continues to walk, with his destination completely obscured under the horizon, until the 5th day, when the walls of the canyon begin to dramatically decrease.  Soon, an easy way down to the floor is visible.  A short walk down, a wet, but moderate swim across a much more docile river, followed by a moderate hike to the top of the other side takes a full day.  After walking Westward, for 3 days, the traveller can see the south city of D.  When seeing this, they are elated, because they realize that they are seeing the familiar city from the other side of the canyon. On the 4th day, they can see their destination, and they arrive, intact, on day 11.

One way was a mile, the other was 10 times farther, but the person who took the long way got there first.  Most of the short-cutters perished within a quarter mile of their destination.

---

There are people who get out of The Assembly, and seem to land on their feet, but they are few and far between.  Most people who leave the Assembly, or got left when it collapsed, will try to take the short cut.  The see the destination, but fail to comprehend the fact that they have been weakened, blinded and deceived.  They are not up to the climb down, swim, and climb up.

Others, who realize this, take advice from people who have gone before, and though the way seems longer, it actually takes far less time.  

The moral of the story:

Don't be so quick and impatient to "serve the Lord," or "be a blessing to these dear christians."  Instead, take the long way, which is actually the short way.  Don't be so quick to write off the BB, and the testimonies as "bitter and divisive,"  they actually contain the map for the long way, which leads to healing.

Instant Sanctification and holiness was the lure that hooked many of us into Geftakysism.  Life just doesn't work that way.  Healing takes time.

Brent

Not all AKs were treated as Bluejay was.  This is not to belittle in any way what Bluejay has experienced in the 'assembly system'. I believe that this BB should minister to him with respect to what he has gone through.

The question arises, What about those AKs who were not affected by the 'assembly system'?
In a family the parents take care of the 'burdens' of running the home etc.  The children are protected from this burden until they are old enough to participate in it.
In an assembly the LB and mature non-LB take care of the 'business' of the assembly.  The young ones are hopefully oblivious to the burden involved of 'running' the assembly. They (young) grow up, have friendships, attend meetings, listen to ministry, but are not burdened to 'take care of the flock'.  Hence some of the 'problems' posted on the BB may seem like a 'foreign' concept to them (the young).  My teens are hurting from this assembly mess up business because of no Seminars/TeenTeam/MTT where they got to meet others their age. To them the 'politicking' of leadership is a foreign concept.
Those very same LBs whose behavior was like the Pharisees and therefore must be exposed, have ministered to the young ones and cared for them.

Maybe, there's a need to re-clarify as to the purpose of this BB.  Is it for 'all' affected? Is it only for those who were affected by the 'assembly system'?  Where do teens like mine find healing on this BB?  I have observed that others have been blasted for not seeing the corruption of the leadership, but that is not understanding their hurt and ministering to them accordingly.

To quote from AlH's excellent post
23   General Discussion / Any and All Topics / In His Image and Likeness...  on: April 25, 2003,
...  This bulletin board has become a field hospital and aid station for wounded pilgrims.  Much healing and nourishing takes place here.  Besides, many have posted here of finding new fellowship and instruction in neighborhood churches, home meetings, radio ministries, and correspondence.  ...    Much work remains to be done for all who have suffered. ...
 Jesus promises that when we come to him, he will give us **rest.  There is a special rest reserved for God's people.Heb.4:9.  He wants us to be comfortable in approaching him, so he receives us meekly, with lowliness in heart.  Perfect love (His) casteth out fear.IJn.4:18.
end-quote.

If this is true, how do we help the young ones like mine as well?
I have not recommended to my teens that they should frequent this BB because I know that not many would be sympathetic to them. I will admit, that lately you have been more civil towards young Matt.  I would have expected a more fatherly approach from the start.  The Lord Jesus did not parcel all that came to him in the same packages and minister the same solution to each (that is an 'assembly-system' method).

Something to think about...
M

Hi Everyone! :)
  Very good conversation here re. some very important points on the subject of healing.
  MGov. has shared re. her concern re. the different experiences AK's may have had vs. adults in the Assembly.  The AK's weren't aware of all the "politicking" and just enjoyed the youth meetings.  Matt has shared his concern that much of his interaction with the Assembly was positive and built him up in Christ.
  Obviously, an individual's experience in the Assembly may range from very abusive (Rachel/Judy) to supportive (Matt/ Luke).  This has caused there to be a debate re. which position is closer to the truth, and it is one that can not be decided on the basis of individual experience alone.
   Nazi Germany was a very positive experience for many in Germany (this is not to say that the Assembly was similar to Nazi Germany, just that it was a political system that history has declared to be evil).  We have learned that the Nazi's "believed", "taught" and "practiced" certain things that were wrong.  For a post war German to say, "well, it helped the economy and  my family went from hunger to being well fed, and so it was a good experience for me", would be a cruel mockery to the the Jews who experienced such abuse and a dangerous kind of relativism.
  To say that there were certain good things that Hitler did for Germany is unquestionably true, but such evaluations do not help us understand Nazism or avoid it's pitfalls.
  There is such a thing as "Assemblyism" and to find healing from the teaching/practices of it we must first identify what it is.  Part of the renewal of the mind is to be able to make clear distinctions between what is a false religous system and the grace of God in Truth.
  If Ak's think that the behavior modification message/disciplines of the Assembly are the means of relating to God it is possible they don't even understand the simple Gospel message and aren't saved.  
  Some will protest that the Gospel was clearly presented in the group and it wasn't so "systemized" as I am suggesting.  To such protestors I would ask, "Is God active in judging Christian groups today?  What just happened in the last 6 months or so?  If it was just a GG and family problem why did God not keep the "system" operative?  Why did so many local leaders abandon their gatherings?
   One of the most dangerous results from being involved in the Assembly is to leave without ever gaining discernment from one's involvement.  It could mean that the individual was only there for the "group" benefits and never developed individual faith and discipleship.  Such individuals could easily find themselves in another group centered church thinking that such social gatherings equal the Gospel.
  Healing is by means of the Gospel and living a grace based relationship with God as an individual.  Hiding from facing the distortion that the Assembly brought to the Gospel will only hinder one's discovery of the grace of God in truth and remove us from the work of the Holy Spirit in our hearts(Gal.1:6-9).
   The whole book of Galatians describes the "grace plus" error that was clearly presented by the Assembly teachers and how this pseudo gospel leads to perverted practices.  To deny this is just to deny the fact of the matter.  Undoubtably, the merit theology message presented in Galatia promoted a kind of good holy living and may have been superficially helpful to certain individuals in controlling their sinful passions, but it hindered the work of the Holy Spirit in it's ministry of grace in their hearts.
   The chief benefit of this BB is to help us "think" clearly about the Gospel and to learn to enjoy the liberty we have in Christ and not to be entangled again in the yoke of bondage that was the Assembly experience.  I would encourage even those who were far from the politics of the Assembly or who were not personally abused in their involvement to answer the question, "what is the Gospel and what is the Christian life?"
   These questions will always produce positive results in the lives of the seeker.
                                        God Bless, Mark  

Dear Brother Mark,

I agree that the Geftakysism is not of the Lord.  My post was an attempt to give a perspective of AKs who are hurting by this and need us to minister to them.  The approach of trying to convince them that the leaders need to repent will not be effective because it is a 'foreign concept' to them.  Healing for them will not come via that means, yet, generally speaking (not always), that has been the method on this BB.  If we are to minister to all who have been affected by Geftakysism then we need to be sensitive to their need in order to apply the proper 'word'.

God bless,
M

Dear M.  :)
   Thank you for your response to my comments and I appreciate your presence on the BB.  I wasn't trying to take you to task for making a difference between AK's and those involved in the "politiking" of the leadership.  I was attempting to show that the purpose of the BB is to expose evil and promote truth, and that the pursuit of this is always healthy for all concerned.  We need not shield Ak's from a full discovery of what they were involved with in fear that the revelations will plunge them into confusion.  
   It is the business of the Holy Spirit to bring any/all persons needing repentance to that place, as it is humanly impossible to do that work (I'm sure that you agree with this).  The business of those who serve the Gospel is to clearly present it and to defend it against those whom would distort it.
  While it is impossible for us to judge the motives and the specific culpability of the former leaders, it is not only possible, but our duty to inform others re. teaching and practices that are contra orthodoxy.  
   The confusion of former youth (as well as adult) will be evident as they attempt to assimilate into the evangelical Christian community.  As Tom Maddox ably stated in the "leaders etc." thread there needs to be a discovery of the false fountainhead from where flows the teaching of the Assembly.
   We don't have to involve the youth in the "he said-she said" of specific accusations re. individual leaders, but we must take the opportunity afforded us by the visititation of the Holy Spirit, via the knocking at the Assembly door, to pursue the list provided to the Laodiceans in Rev. 3.  This list required the church to allow the voice of Jesus to penetrate their preconceived notions and to learn to think differently.
  Was Jesus unfair to make a blanket statement to the church at Laodicea?  He seemed to place all individuals in the same boat in re. to culpability.  To respond to the "sweeping generalizations" of Jesus to the Churches of Asia by mounting defenses of certain individuals to lessen their culpability would have missed the point.  
  Each and every individual can profit from The Sword of Truth that proceeds from our Lord's mouth.  To protect ourselves, or others, from honest assesment of Assembly teaching/practices is not compassionate, but subversion of the work of the Holy Spirit.
  It is a general principle in scripture that, "if we say that we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."  History shows that groups, as well as individuals, have a great propensity to wander from our Lord and that our Good Shepherd seeks to find and extricate us from the bramble bush we are lost in.  Those who want His help must admit they are stuck, lost, and in desperate need.  Those who are too proud to admit their need will not discover the help and healing of the Holy Spirit.
   In order to find healing we must stop qualifying and parsing our Lord's call to repentance and see that we all must go through the process of recovery.  This repentance(change of mind) begins with the understanding that the basis for our understanding the Gospel was in error and that in the Assembly this error was systematized.  Everthing in the Assembly was tainted with the above error and as such needs a thorough "trying in the fire".
   When we accept the hand of Our Lord (and drop our protests) we will experience the wonderful comfort of Him who lifts the burden of the weary and heavy laden.
                                 God Bless,  Mark

Hi MGov! :)
  I never thought I would ever qualify comments made by Dietrich Bonhoffer, but I believe he was addressing his comments to Christians who were not in churches with authoritarian leadership.
  I believe it is important to those who for years sat passively by to understand that it is key to be able to have confidence in their relationship in the Lord as individuals.  In the Assembly we were taught that there were, "no Lone Ranger Christians".  This led to a false discipleship that allowed leaders to cross boundaries between oneself and Christ.
  As we sort out what is a Christian assertion of my liberty in Christ vs. a self defense of my hurt ego we will make some mistakes.  As I shared on another thread, the difference between righteous anger and sinful anger is identified by what we are defending.
  If we are standing up for the Gospel, and the liberty it proclaims for individuals, we must be most unyielding to any kind of compromise or moderation.  If we have a personality strife with another Bro./Sis we need to be willing to suffer silently, as Bonhoffer stated.
   To those fresh out of years of having their souls controlled, manipulated, and abused it will be difficult for them to control the expressions of pent up emotion.  To tell such individuals to be silent, invoking the words of scripture, will not help such in healing.  I think rather that we can redirect the strong emotional reactions of these into the same kind of emotional defense that Jesus and Paul made for the defense of those injured at the hands of toxic faith.
  In other words, "be angry, but sin not;  express understanding to those who are hurting by coming along side and listening to their complaint.  Encourage them that the Lord is not interested in correcting their emotional intensity and weeps with them.  Also, let them know that they are right for feeling angry that they were taken advantage of and those who abused them were very wrong.  Then let them know that God is not the angry perfectionist that was falsely represented in the Assembly, but the lover of their needy souls who is merciful and gracious.
   Discovery of Jesus, as He really is (our best friend), turns the hurt into healing and gives us the same compassion for others.  Grace turns us from our own hurts to the defense and help of those wounded on the pilgrim path.
                                         God Bless,  Mark


 

I want to add my Amen to Brother Mark's post.

Mark 10:45 "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."

M

STREAMS IN THE DESERT
October 21

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens." (2 Cor 5:1)

The owner of the tenement which I have occupied for many years has given notice that he will furnish but little or nothing more for repairs. I am advised to be ready to move.

At first this was not a very welcome notice. The surroundings here are in many respects very pleasant, and were it not for the evidence of decay, I should consider the house good enough. But even a light wind causes it to tremble and totter, and all the braces are not sufficient to make it secure. So I am getting ready to move.

It is strange how quickly one's interest is transferred to the prospective home. I have been consulting maps of the new country and reading descriptions of its inhabitants. One who visited it has returned, and from him I learn that it is beautiful beyond description; language breaks down in attempting to tell of what he heard while there. He says that, in order to make an investment there, he has suffered the loss of all things that he owned here, and even rejoices in what others would call making a sacrifice. Another, whose love to me has been proven by the greatest possible test, is now there. He has sent me several clusters of the most delicious fruits. After tasting them, all food here seems insipid.

Two or three times I have been down by the border of the river that forms the boundary, and have wished myself among the company of those who were singing praises to the King on the other side. Many of my friends have moved there. Before leaving they spoke of my coming later. I have seen the smile upon their faces as they passed out of sight. Often I am asked to make some new investments here, but my answer in every case is, "I am getting ready to move."

Thanks MGov! :)
    That is a wonderful thought from "Streams in the Desert" and I thank you for sharing it.

                            God Bless,  Mark