AssemblyBoard

I was reading an article on CultNews.Com (posted in January) about a couple named the Edgars in Kansas City.  They apparently were cult leaders in that area.  While being held on charges of murdering their son, it was discovered that they had owned rental property.  They claimed on their income taxes that they were letting people live their rent free.  However, these people living there were not only paying rent, but also were pressured to give up their pay checks.  The district attorneys comments were that they were trying to figure out if this church was a total scam or a partial scam.

Heres my point.  It has been stated that people who lived in the Geftakys home were technically not paying rent, but were instead making a donation.  After reading some articles on the Website, it seems to me that these donations were mandatory.  (see Arthurs personal account that said the donation was $550 per month).  Simply put, if these donations were mandatory, which they were, wouldn't that constitute some sort of verbal agreement that would be binding???
If the Geftakys were indeed not claiming these peoples month to month rent, but were making an income, I got to believe this would be illegal.  

This does not even include the money stolen from the Lords Treasury.  However, if their "donation" scam was exposed, I am sure this would come to light.  

I specifically remember hearing something at the end of each meeting like this...."Their is a box in the back part of the room that goes for the needs of the work and this ministry, blah blah, blah.) If this money was not going toward the needs of the work, that would obviosuly be fraudulent as well.  Personal hobbies and cush lifestyles are not the needs of this work.  

Have the Geftakys' doings ever been reported to the IRS???  Has someone in a position of authority ever investigated these people for their financial misdoings???  Anyone know???  Obviously, with the cush lifestyles they have lead, that would have to draw some red flags.  How can someone life in homes of that value, drive expensive cars, etc. with no reported income.    One of the things that blew me away on my trip to Fullerton 10 years ago was how ridiculously nice that Tim and George's houses and vehicles were.  "The Lord Provides" was the response I heard when I commented on their homes.  Believe me, I'm all about people having nice things, but only when they  legitimately should have them.

I'm pretty sure that George, David, or Tim never won the lottery...And based on one of George's famous stories of how people came and repoed all of his parents belongings when he was a boy, I am quite sure that he probably didn't inherit that money.

Enlighten me...Was our church a complete scam or a partial scam???

Bluejay,

I cannot determine if our Church was a Complete Scam or a Partial Scam on the basis of how the finances were handled.
However, my opinion on the way David G handled the rent in his home, and the way he handled his household, is a shame, and I say shame on him and on anyone else who did the same.

MG

The way David G handled rent in his home is criminal.  I am guessing that the same procedure took place at the other Geftakys homes as well - which would also be criminal.  You can't have mandatory "donations" when it comes to rent...That is illegal!!!

ILLEGAL? Interesting use of the word... No taxes being paid, no accounting of the money, always using cash. Looks like a thread...

Money, sex and power are the pitfalls to any church based business (according to Billy Graham) and that is why he doesn't handle the money. He has a CPA do it. Doesn't that sound legal??

Oh yea, big scam. No offense some of you oldtimers... I know it has been said that when this ministry started that B&G weren't evil or corrupted but I think you are wrong. For some odd reason EVERY church where George had been, he left under a cloud. So he starts his own. How much more corrupt do you have to be to be preaching your own doctrine? The past really speaks for itself...

Heide

I think I learned some priceless things in the Assembly.
Yet I also have some wounds that  will/may never heal.
I think George may have multiple personalities.  There is the George that believes he's 'the Lords' servant".  There is the George who is a con-man etc...  Has anyone ever read up on the Jim Jones group?  Or David Koresh?  These people seemed to have very similar experiences in other words were "Born again" and genuinly trying to "Walk with the Lord! "Obey the scriptures" etc.. What do you think?

I don't believe that George has multiple personalities...The con man in George knows that people will only give him money if he acts like "the Lords servant"....Probably the only reason his son Tim Geftakys went along with this act was that the money was to good to pass up...Lets face the fact - he wouldn't have came close to making that money anywhere else.  Tim wasn't near as good as putting on a show as George was...George at least could come across as caring.  Tim came across as brash and arrogant.  At the end of the day, I don't care what their intentions were...They both were involved in criminal activity.

They are both scum bags.

...God lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace.


Hello, all,

     There hasn't been a reason for me to post on this thread until now.  Heide just almost mentioned me by name.
     NO!-- not the paragraph about money, sex and power!!! The paragraph after that:
     i am one of those "oldtimers" that Heide thinks are wrong about thinking that GG & co. weren't evil back in the early days.  Well, write down the date, because i'm about to go on record:

     When i signed onto this BB a few short months ago, i
 was appalled by the accusations i saw leveled against George, Betty, David and Timothy.  Because when i left in 1980, i walked away from "the Lord's servant" and "the Lord's work."  
     i posted my concerns, and was met with a hailstorm of protests in response.  i tried to clarify my case, but it just kept hailing.  So i made the dispute a matter of concerned prayer.

                       PLEASE DON'T MISS THIS:

     The Lord answered my prayers by using this Bulletin Board & the GA website to open my eyes to reality that i had buried away from my conscious memory over 20 years ago.  Gradually i began to realize that i had been so willing to believe in what i was involved with that i had ignored evidence that is now, in retrospect, so clear to me that i am ashamed to have not recognized it.
     My conclusion is, whether GG became evil or was born that way, his condition had set in before i met him, and i never knew him as a Godly man, no matter what i thought at that time.  i can also say that i am certain that Betty, David and Tim were fixed upon their paths before i left, although i had failed to see it then.

     So i must concur with Heide:  i was wrong about them going from good to bad.  The work in which i was involved, the "testimony" of which i was part, was corrupted all the while.


     My big concern at the present time is that some posters are saying that the BB has outlived its usefulness.  The BB has been the instrument by which i have been delivered from blindness and brought into the revelation of my Lord's great grace.  And that is a work still in progress.  And i'm not alone.
     Almost every day there are new people registering here, some of whom are in great pain and need.  Just because YOU no longer need the BB, rejoice! but don't take it away from those whom it may yet help.
     Just today a dear brother who used to live in my house signed in here.  i have been wondering for two decades what had become of him.  Now perhaps we can be reunited.

     Sure, i think some posters are too brash, haughty, arrogant, or whatever, but i guess God can handle them (you)--  He took care of me, and i was surely no blue ribbon prize!  

     It's when we begin to comprehend what we have become IN HIM that the bad traits fade and the new creation begins to show.  i'll wait for that in you if you'll wait for it in me.  Together, then, let us not neglect so great salvation,

al Hartman

I think you're right, Al.  This bb has certainly not out lived it's usefulness.  It's all about communicating.  Exchanging thoughts, ideas, concerns, experiences.  Many of us have been slammed in the past for "saying it wrong".  So we stopped trying.  Well, making the effort to at least try to honestly express our thoughts should be encouraged.  The bb is a forum where we can learn from each other.  God has grace for all of us, no matter where we are in the discovery process of learning just what we have been involved with and supporting all this time. He even has grace for all the leaders who don't see yet that they've done anything wrong.

Saved, by grace, and enjoying it more all the time,
Becky

Hey Dave,

You know there is an old saying "Time heals ALL wounds." In time you won't remember all the petty, cruddy little dealings with the assembly because our human nature is too forget the bad and replace it with something good, something palatable. Talk about corny, I switched coffee the other day and on the first sip it took me back to the sisters house in SLO. Good memories of sitting in the living room drinking coffee and laughing. Something I hadn't thought about in years.  

Throw out all those little sayings "I'm walking with the Lord, obey the scriptures, rejoice sister/brother, Lord Bless You." I found everytime I said it or even thought it, it brought up all this assembly garbage. I also found that in the last two/three years I didn't want a church that only talked doctrine. I've had enough doctrine to last me a lifetime! I wanted to hear about Jesus. I haven't found a church that does that.

I'm not trying to be presumptious Dave but it sounds like we are looking for the same thing, a life that makes sense.

Heide

P.S. You hit the nail on the head. George is a con-man. Con-vict, con-artist. He is the actor capable of playing many parts. I believe in saying that he could have multi-person you are taking the responsiblity off of him and putting it on a sickness. He needs to be responsible for his actions.

Al,

Glad to hear you've seen things a little clearer lately.  I still liked your post where you explained the relative lack of control at the VERY beginning.  I likened it to a honeymoon.  The assemblies in the Midwest were a bit more free at first too.  Perhaps GG was willing to be lax at the beginning to lure people into the fold/prison.  New visitors/victims were commonly given slack until they were emotionally attached to all the people that showed such acceptance.  I guess the same is true for assemblies as a whole.

Jack

While were on the subject, Sunday I was visiting the Fullerton library.  I walked past a small grassy area where "the/we saints use to eat lunch between the mtgs.  My memories went back 20 years!  Suddenly I looked up there were a group of "Saints" (Tim G. Dennis Hittle, Curt Miles, Rex ? and few more) all at a bench eating lunch. I couldn't help laughing out loud as I waved to them.  These guys are in their 50s still playing assembly! :P :P :P :P :P :P THANK YOU JESUSE< THANK YOU JESUS FOR SAVING ME!

The CIA has concluded that this person mentioned was a stunt double and not the real Tim Geftakys for the following reasons:

1.  The real Tim Geftakys would never eat lunch on a library park bench when plenty of local buffets are open - where he could eat non stop all day.

2.  Intelligence photographs showed three people on one side of the bench, and three people on the other side of the bench.  In order to balance the table, and keep it from flipping over, the real Tim Geftakys would have to sit by himself on one side, and the other five people on the other side.

Please be aware that Tim Geftakys has at least two other look alike  (Jabba the Hut and Fat Albert) stunt doubles.  

Saints and maybe-saints,

     Just a brief testimony:  Some years ago, i admitted to myself that i complained a lot.  It occurred to me that, since complaining never seemed to resolve anything, i should probably at least try to pray as much as i complained.
     i tried it for a while, but found that it laid such a heavy schedule of prayer on me that there wasn't enough time in the day.  That's how i learned to quit bellyaching.  Now i have plenty of time for prayer (which accomplishes far more than the complaints ever did).

Try it,
al

al-

will you please stop trying to tell people what to do, say and / or feel???  i have asked nicely and others have contended but you just don't seem to get the message.  so, now i am being straight forward with high hopes that you will read and understand...

thank you.

Curt Miles the "Gentle Giant" is still around????!!!
Un-freaking-believable!! (like that word MGov?). Some things never change huh?
Verne

It took a bit of analysis on my part. I concluded that it means unbelievable with freaking in between.  I must be get used to your jargon.

MG

Good job! Conversely, so unbelievable as to cause one to like... totally freak...
Verne

Yes it is sad and scarry to think that these guys are still doing the assembly thing. One of the guys on that bench went through a horrible divorce. His wife told him over and over you are in a cult, George is a fraud!
He took a bold stand, "No" "I'm just following the Lord!"  It really took a toll on him and his relationship with his children. Today what must he be going through?  George was a fraud? She was right?!!! The last 30 years of my life have been a wrong choice?  Like many people who've I've talked with cannot bring themselves to admit they were dupped by George.  Its too hard, it questions the very foundation they have based their lives upon for so long. Those of us who made it out have a lot to be thankful for!  And thats why I say "Thank You Jesus!"

Dave; here is something that bugs the you-know-what out of me.
That marriage was not the only one George and Betty destroyed.
Why did  these people not see the FRUIT of George's so-called ministry. WHY DID THEY NOT SEE THE FRUIT????!!!!!!!
Verne

Vern I think the longer you stay the more you have to lose by leaving. These guys have invested their whole lives.  Some have no life outside the assembly and like ouselves would have to start all over on so many levels. Yet leaving would be the better choice. How long were you in fellowship?  

I was in full bore about five years. I woke up one morning and the Lord said so clearly to me: "What are you doing here??" I remember having some misgivings (although I had made up my mind to leave); remember all that hogwash about loosing the inheritance? Boy was I bamboozled!
I have a few clear instances in which I know the Lord sopke powerfully and clearly to me. He did so that day from Psalm 16: 5-6:
The Lord is the portion of mine inheritance and of my cup: thou maintainest my lot.
 The lines are fallen unto me in pleasant places; yea, I have a goodly heritage...

When the Lord of Glory speaks to you Dave, it shakes you to the very atoms! I have  never been the same my friend...never looked back. How faithful He has been to me...I owe Him everthing...
Verne
p.s. I do not for one minute think this makes me somehow special...no question the Lord spoke to many others about that den of iniquity...question is why did so few listen...?

Why? ???
I ask my self that question meny times.  Why did I not see this, that or the other...
I sow meny things that made my heart cry out ' this is not right' and I voiced alot to my husband.  If I did not have such a strong conviction about marriage I would have left Tim years ago.
There was a comment George made to Tim when he (Tim) was driving George and Samuel to Champaign about me that I had no idea was made untill about a month ago.  George was upset that I had not engage in a conversation with Samuel and made the remark, 'that wife of yours" to Tim.  Also George always greeted Tim by his name but never greeted me by name, it was always 'sister'.
Twenty eight years of ones life is a long time to give to something that turns out to be so full of lies and deception.  But what troubles me the most is to hear by children battle with growing up in all this mess.
God is greater that any person and His healing is such a comfort.
The Lord bless you.  :) :) :)

Hi Everyone! :)
  I would like to make a general announcement that I think would fit quite nice on this thread.

         GOOD REASONS TO STICK WITH THE BB

  I have been on several BB's that have to do with recovery from cults/abusive churches in the past 12 years and this BB is far and away the very best I've been on.  
  On one of the BB's I was the only Evangelical Christian who posted, and if you read most of the posts there you would have thought that my posting was ignored.  For every poster on a BB there are probably a 100 lurkers who only read.  On the BB I mention above I was privately contacted and had the privilege of helping some folks, who had been in some pretty nasty cults, with faith in Christ.
  Al's testimony should be a great encouragement to those who think the BB is of little use and only an opportunity for gainsayers to misdirect confused exassemblites. Al, after many years, due to this site, discovered that he did not "fail" when he left.  He also found that GG had twisted the Gospel, and that in fact Jesus never left him for his lack of performance in the GG merit system!
  In the other BB's I was on nobody ever heard of The Assembly.  On this BB we are all Assembly-- all the time!  I check the member list and discover old friends from years ago and we have opportunity to talk and help one another.  Some, Like Al, left before GG's fall, Brent's internet posting, Enroth, etc.  These individuals have an opportunity to be lifted by us on the BB, who with great empathy, can assist them.
  Yes, there are those who have lost faith in the Gospel who will post, as well as those who have an agenda to promote false teaching.  The light of the Gospel has never been mastered by the darkness and as we try to present the truth of the Grace of God the Holy Spirit will work His miraculous power in those that read.
  It is also important in our recovery to develop independent thinking skills.  As we try to answer those who post thoughts that are contrary to the truth our own understanding is made clearer (iron sharpens iron).  This discernment brings a greater confidence and joy to our daily lives.  Doctrine (teaching) is the means whereby we experience life in Christ and thinking is the only means to assimilate teaching.  Doctrine is not dead and dry, but the revelation of the riches in Christ Jesus, our inheritance.
   For many long years I had wished for such an opportunity to reach out to my dear friends from the Assembly and now here it is.  Personally, I'm am not discouraged, but rather, encouraged at what God can do with such a forum.  Pray that God would continue to use it to touch many hearts with his healing message of grace.
                       God Bless,  Mark
 

Dear Arlene:
I realize I run the unhealthful risk of sounding somewhat condemnatory is raising some of the questions I do. I have nothing but the deepest respect and love for those saints (you and Tim included) who survived George with their faith entirely intact, and the courage to identify that situation for what it was.
Without exception, these queries of mine take square aim not so much at the rank and file of people in that ministry, but rather the constituted leadership. They were responsible.
I still remember how close I came to being put in that position and shudder to think of the burden I would bear had I remained. Would I have been faithful?? I don't even want to think about it...
 I know there are some who stayed only because of their love for the flock- men I know personally who agonized over what they saw and knew. The aim of my repeated challenge is to remind myself and others, particularly those with spiritual responsibility, what posture we should take with the Georges of the world. There will undoubtedly be more.
I am so encouraged by your candor Arlene, God is able to heal all wounds with scar-less newness! He is faithful!
Verne  

I've been enjoying the posts on this thread.  Here are some of my thoughts:

If you liken a church to a flock of sheep lying down on green pastures I'd say we were SHEEP GRAZING ON ASTROTURF.  George, et al reminded us constantly that the grass we were having a hard time digesting was such a rich source of nutrition that it wasn't available anywhere else.  We figured that if we just kept eating it someday our bodies would grow accustomed to it.

The ministry didn't die - it never had life to begin with.

Jack

I agree with much of what Mark just said.

If you base the group on GG&Co. I would say scam complete.
If you look to the many wonderful, genuinely good people that we all had/have the privilege to know,
I would call that one of life's little blessings.
I've been out over 12 years was envolved for over 7. I still have bitterness that plagues me.
But am so grateful for the many people that truly loved me and that I love.

I think our anger is appropriate.
Mostly, I am angry at myself for my following so blindly.
This anger will hopefully be the thing that will keep me from doing it again.
It should cause each of us to find out who god is on our own (maybe that's what he wanted all along)
We need to stepback and figure out how much of all this stuff is really God's stuff and how much was GG&Co.'s way of keeping us in check. "For I have not the spirit of fear..."
I agree with the person who said that the trigger phrases make me ill. I have had to drop all of that jargon - you do realize it was part of the brain washing. the trigger phrases cause certain feelings/behavior/guilt? get rid of it! (my suggestion only)  :)
I am not however angry for loving and for having been loved. it saved my life at the time.
I suppose that is why I never tried to persuade anyone to leave with me. Who am I to say what god will use to cause growth in someone's life. I was aware of some of the abuses. wondered about others. You know, pastors and priest often have flings with the church secretaries and people they are counseling. Is God not still God?
I am in no way making excuse for horrendous behavior. Geo. truly is a bad man. (a wolf in sheep's clothing) but unlike the Jim Jones episode - we're still breathing.
I have always only felt bad for the children. As adults, we chose to follow. The children we're (often) beat into submission. Their fresh spirits knew better... But you know what - God is still God. The pain we experience in life will either make us or break us. If we choose we can only become stronger from all of this. (Even the children).
amy

Thanks for the ovine (I do not say bovine!) analogy Jack. We would have needed a couple of extra stomachs to digest what George dished out...!

 

Talk about cud-ing to the chase...!
Verne

I truly appreciated what Amy had to say.  As a mother, one of my greatest regrets is what I put my children through.  Particularly my 16 year old daughter.  She was the one I felt suffered the most abuse.  But, what she and I have both had to work through, is an understanding of the sovereignty of God.   This is truly not understood in the assembly - if it was then people wouldn't be pointing at any individual and "blaming" them for "bringing down" the assembly - God "sovereignly" brought down the various assemblies at His good pleasure.

In order to move on from our assembly experiences, we must come through what I believe are certain lessons.  One of those is understanding that God is sovereign.  He could have snatched us at any time from that place.  He didn't.  Rom 8:28, God causes all things to work together for good.  He has His purposes in it all.  When I came to dwell (and I am still dwelling) on this GREAT TRUTH, what peace!  What rest for my soul!  He is sovereign, He is good.  He is going to use it all for His purposes!  How incredible!  It does not mean that I don't still experience pain.  There is daily pain.  Pain from lost relationships.  Pain from missing my dear friends so deeply it physically hurts.  But God is in the pain too.  And He is teaching me.  He is not done with me.  But thankfully, I have great hope.  Not hope in myself, for I am nothing, my hope is in my savior, He is well able to perfect that which concerns me and His grace is sufficient for me, even in this most difficult time.  And I am trusting in Him to bring me victoriously through this situation to a place of healing, hope, joy, restoration, knowing that He has a great plan for my life and the lives of my children.

Thank You Kimberly !
I agree whole heartedly with you. What has happened to us is very sad, but what an opportunity for us if we let God have His way.
Personally I have found comfort in Romans 6:16-22
G&BG were wicked taskmasters, but now we are free.
This BB has been a blessing to me because the testimonies shared are filling missing pieses of the puzzle of what we were involved in.  Seeing the big picture of what went on is liberating.
10 yrs ago my employer sent me to Canada for 3 months, while there I met a dear Christian man who invited me to his nondemonational church for worship. The people there were genuine and their love for God obvious. Then I was introduced to their visiting leader. He was another George (20 yrs. younger) act. He tried to tell me my salvation was lacking, I told him to take it up with God that the death of his Son was not enough for me. It was just like the assembly, same format ! I told my new Christian friend that this guy will put you in bondage. I am trying to locate him to hook him up with this BB and maybe it can save some people from a lot of grief.

A complete scam or a partial scam? Do we ever say "Oh that person is partially dead"? Or "I'm partially sick" or "I'm partially married"? I think the Assembly was a scam from the beginning. Maybe "scam" is the wrong word to use though. I'm not sure if George from the beginning had some horrific plan in mind. But I believe he was a heretic, and the fruits of a heretic are clearly known through time. From the very beginning George had a set of teachings that were at odds with what the Bible actually teaches.

I read a book once which said that the best counterfeit is one that most closely resembles the true. This is obvious, but the Assembly closely resembled the truth in many ways.
We believed in the Trinity, that Jesus was the Son of God, that he died on the cross for our sins, etc... So, a counterfeit dollar can look just like a real dollar until you closely examine it and see what kind of paper it is made of.

"By their fruits ye shall know them" said the Lord. The Assembly closely resembled a true church until you looked at what it was made of. It had teachings which lead to severe bondage. It had a pastor that was far more than a pastor. He was really a "ruler". It took "salvation" and belittled it as only an "entrance", not a finished work. It replaced the Holy Spirit with "works"---so many meetings and time devoted that you were more like zombies than real people.

I've often wondered if George instituted so many meetings to keep himself in line. "Maybe if I have to Always attend meetings, and all day Sundays I'll stay away from all the evil I so long to do". Since he couldn't control himself, he instituted a whole set of "works" to help keep himself in check.

I believe the Assembly was a complete heresy from the beginning because how could there ever be a "partial heresy"? It was just camoflauged so well, a counterfeit church that really looked the part. A church not set up by God, but by a man who wanted to be in the forefront and in power. This was a man who wanted to run the show. He really had very little concern for the flock, this is shown by the amount of abuse suffered by so many under his "leadership". It was a Nicolaitin church which the Lord said in Revelation that he hates. Nico: to lord over  laitin:
the laity or the church. Defintition of a Nicolaitin: One who lords it over the flock. This was the Assembly in a nutshell.

--Joe

Verne;
Questions should make us think and that is healthy.
If I sounded upset it is because I get upset with myself.
I always enjoy seeing your post and the challenges they set forth.  

Amy;
Are you the Amy Denny who lived in Springfield with Ronda?

I agree Joe!

George's teachings before the assembly got him kicked out of a few churches before he started his own. Of course that wasn't his only default....

We were involved with a counterfeiter. Our beliefs have earmarks of the truth without what Christ did to make it ours. We were taught the law but not the love or the grace or the compassion. It was all very black and white.

Heide