AssemblyBoard

In regards to recent (like the past three months or so) posts:

Ah, ok I see now. :-\ :'(

This just confirms to me that the time for this board has passed.  I think it had a good beginning, but I can't see that it does much good now.

I'm disappointed--I was hoping to ask more questions...but, I'm not sure that I would listen much to answers from people who can't stop fighting amonst themselves.

Have you noticed that a lot of good people have left?  Only a few people are posting now and it's mostly garbage strife.  I don't know about you, but I tend to not gaze into my garbage can and talk about its contents with my friends.  I just leave my garbage can there in the corner and every once in a while toss garbage into it.  

Hey, if your guys' idea of a good time is endless argueing...then by all means continue to your hearts delight.  But that's not for me.  

There isn't just gunfights in the hall of this hospital.  This hospital has become a theatre of urban warfare. This is where people buy tickets to see WWF matches.  It's a spectacle.  

Well, I hope you can learn to stop bickering and instead focus on helping people.   Good luck in life.

Once again frustrated at what I see in my fellow man,
Arthur

---

Update: After going back and actually reading the "garbage", I found that it wasn't all just pointless argueing.  I found that people like Brent and Verne were stating and standing for the truth, and being maligned for it.  Because of this, I decided to join the "spectacle" and state where I stand.  Of course, it didn't change much, so I guess I may still be moving on.  

Arthur/Verne---

I hope you don't leave the BB for good. I've enjoyed many of your posts very much. I feel this BB can still be a place of great profit and fellowship for all. I hope to see many more posts in the future from both of you.

Take care and God bless,  Joe

Hello/goodbye everyone.

I have really been in prayer and counsel about this, and have decided that this will be my final post on the BB.

Until this morning, I wasn't even planning on saying anything, but simply walking away, but I thought better of it, and decided to let people know why.

The purpose of the BB was intitially to expose the unfruitful works of darkness.  Mission accomplished.  I handed it over to Brian Tucker, and began posting as a "normal" member, although with a higher profile and more "gravitas" than the average user.

The new mission, at least in my mind, was supposed to be for healing.  Mission impossible.  (Don't try to tell me that with God all things are possible.  That fact doesn't mean that God does everything.  There's plenty of stuff He doesn't do.)

I tried taking 6 weeks off, which helped a little. Things got absolutely horrible with the St. Louis Sister thing, and then seemed to get better for a while.  Things actually looked really good over the last 2 weeks, and then, sure enough they blew apart again.

Every time we have engaged in meaningful discussion, and especially when it has been edifying, someone comes along and derails the process.  There are some who are of "Brent," others who are of "the twelve," and others still who are "of Christ."  I am quoting 1 Corinthians here, and in this context I do not say "I am of Christ," as a compliment.  The most recent faction to arrive on the scene is the "I am of Christ," faction, which is the worst of the bunch.

Basically what we have here are a handful of people posting, with a few onlookers.  We are unable to rise above phony tolerance, and vapid thought processes for more than a day or two.  Whenever someone says something edifying about the Lord Jesus, it is largely ignored.

If someone says something true about the Assembly, or its teaching, they are criticised in the basest manor, and the topic gets thrown back into the ditch.  We are blind followers of blind guides.  Yep, we are pharisees.  I include myself in this description.  I even wrote a paper about it.

Jesus advice is to "leave them alone."  Matt 15:14

The latest thing to hit the BB, is the worst yet, in my opinion.  In this case, the answer is not to fight, but to leave them alone.  That's what I intend to do.

People can say whatever they want about me, and I fully expect someone to say, "As soon as he had any opposition, he left."  In anticipation of this, I would just remind everyone that when I started this, I faced far more opposition, from far more people than any of you could imagine.  The warfare was intense, but God strengthened me, on your behalf.  If I was the type to fold under pressure, I would have done so long before now.  I am not facing any opposition worth mentioning at present, compared to before, but what I am facing is a dullness and pharisaical spirit that will not hear or see.  So, I am not going to try talking anymore.

Another accusation that may be leveled at me is along the lines of our recent disaster, where come claim there are "shepherds who are supposed to know better."  Indeed, there are.  As one of them, I am hoping to take the lead by getting you out of here.  Everything you need to know about the false, unholy system that George Geftakys erected, and which you all serve(d) is to be found on the website, and in the older posts on this BB.  Avail yourselves of them, and the wisdom they contain.  There is no sense repeating things over and over to people who plug their ears, and cover their eyes, and won't let themselves read the truth.  You are free to drift wherever you will.

Prov 9:8
Prov 17:10
Prov 19:25
Prov 24:25--I can really testify to this one.

2 Tim 4:2  Preach the word! Be ready in season [and] out of season. Convince,  rebuke , exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3  For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, [because] they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers;  4  and they will turn [their] ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.  5  But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

The time has come on this BB, and I am done.

Titus 1:13  This testimony is true. Therefore  rebuke  them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith,  14  not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth.

and finally there is this:

Titus 2:10  Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition,  11  knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.

What has happened here is that some of you have coddled and encouraged the warped and sinning, when you should have rejected them.  The consequence for this is that whatever "could have been," shall never be.

There are hundreds of people who have been permanently scarred by George Geftakys and his doctrines.  The community here is in a unique position to help them; I would venture to say that we are the only ones who really understand and can address the errors from the standpoint of experience.  Sadly, this benefit has been forfeited due to the blind arrogance that is concealed in misplaced compassion and foolish tolerance.

I will not be writing here again, but please know that I am praying for you all, and will always be available in person, on the phone, or by email.  You may reject my warnings, and besmirch my character as much as you like, but I can say that my hands are clean in this matter, and I have been faithful to my ministry in this regard.

Brent Tr0ckman

 Arthur, why was your post edited by Brent Tr0ckman? Are you one of Brent's aliases? Just curious...

- Matt


 Disappointing--final posts from longtime users
« Reply #4 on: Today at 12:12:20pm »  

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In regards to recent (like the past three months or so) posts:

Ah, ok I see now.  

This just confirms to me that the time for this board has passed.  I think it had a good beginning, but I can't see that it does much good now.

I'm disappointed--I was hoping to ask more questions...but, I'm not sure that I would listen much to answers from people who can't stop fighting amonst themselves.

Have you noticed that a lot of good people have left?  Only a few people are posting now and it's mostly garbage strife.  I don't know about you, but I tend to not gaze into my garbage can and talk about its contents with my friends.  I just leave my garbage can there in the corner and every once in a while toss garbage into it.  

Hey, if your guys' idea of a good time is endless argueing...then by all means continue to your hearts delight.  But that's not for me.  

There isn't just gunfights in the hall of this hospital.  This hospital has become a theatre of urban warfare. This is where people buy tickets to see WWF matches.  It's a spectacle.  

Well, I hope you can learn to stop bickering and instead focus on helping people.  Good luck in life.

Once again frustrated at what I see in my fellow man,
Arthur
 
« Last Edit: Today at 05:14:49pm by B. Tr0ckman »
 

Answer:
Brent Tr0ckman can(could) edit anybody's post he wants(wanted) to, because he is(was) the administrator.

It seems that lately several people have been giving up.  This has been happening in stages.  First, a person will give up on manners, then, after a while composure, next, rationality goes, and finally, the person will give up on posting anything at all.

I wonder why.  The "Saint Louis Sister" fiasco was caused by inflamatory private messages and emails sent by an outsider intent on causing mischief.  I'm wondering if something like this is happening again.  Have the various combatants in this latest brawl been receiving private messages or emails from an outsider goading them to fight?

I am of the opinion that private messages and emails from outsiders or other people who are not very well known should be considered suspect and of questionable validity.  I also believe that outsiders should not be given any information via private messages or emails.

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Remember the old saying, divide and conquer.  This BB does good by helping to unite God's people through communication.  The devil doesn't like that.  That is why he takes measures to encourage and enhance conflict.  That is why he took measures to alienate from this BB the Robinsons & co.  It looks like he is still at work with hopes of shutting down the BB completely.  Opposition from the devil is evidence that the BB is doing good.

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Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.  Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.  For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.  Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.  And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel, For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.  Eph. 6:10-20

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The armor:
1. Be honest
2. Do what's right
3. Proclaim the good news of peace with God
4. Believe that God rewards those who seek him
5. Hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the Lord
6. Speak the Truth in love

---

Pray before you post.  Try to avoid repetition.  Posts remain in the BB database so there isn't much need for it.

Stephen---

I think you're right. There has always been a little conflict on the bUlletin Board---but most of the time it has been constructive. When some "bickering" breaks out we can learn from it, put it behind us, and be brothers in the Lord as "dear children of God".

I remember Jesus at the well. He told the woman "He that drinks of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst,
but the water I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life".(John 4).

The water that flows up in us is not intended just for us, but that others might come and drink. We are supposed to be a blessing to one another, and the water of life in us should make unbelievers around us thirsty for what we have.

I know, I too have been guilty on this BB in the past of some "bickering" myself, but I really did learn from it and am
still learning. I think when these outside influences come in and we can see that they are "purposefully" trying to cause strife we should ignore them.

This BB is intended for fellowship, and to help those escaping the Assembly to be healed. When someone comes in defending the very system that hurt so many that should put a red flag up in front of us. They are free to state "their opinion" but they should rather be ignored rather than "backed up" by those who have escaped that system of legalism. Why encourage them to continue?

There was a person named John who used to come into the Bulletin Board for the very purpose of causing strife and division. After he was largely ignored and felt no one was listening, he left and hasn't returned since. I feel this Bulletin Board can continue to be a blessing for all. As we share the things the Lord has taught us, and help others who have escaped false teachings, that water that flows out from us will be fulfilling it's purpose. Because the Lord never blesses us just for us, but to be a blessing to others.

Thanks for your wise observation Stephen.

God bless,  Joe

Outsiders are those who have never been in an assembly and don't even have any interest in the message of Christianity.  I don't consider Matt to be an outsider, but he does make the moderator's job difficult.

I realize there are many on this BB who view their calling as one to be ministers of grace. I would remind every reader that God’s work of recovery entails not only the ministry of grace, but also the proclamation of truth:

And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
John 8:32

  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 1:14  

The basis of all the Adversary does is deception:

When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
John 8:44

I  have determined to make this my last post as I have concluded that the spirit of deception has reached a new zenith on the BB. What is one to make of  a self-styled “minister of grace” taking the remarks of a long-standing BB member of established repute, willfully and maliciously out of context, for the express purpose of impugning that individual's integrity and with absolutely no regard to the truth of what has been asserted or the context in which the comments occurred? It is clear that my task here is at an end.

I would remind all readers, that it was truth, not grace, that was the casualty that led to the untold sorrow and misery visited upon countless lives decimated by the ministry of George Geftakys, and his enablers. It was the death of truth, not grace, that resulted in the unspeakable blasphemy of things most holy, and the bringing of shameful reproach upon the name of Christ by that so-called ministry. It was the death of truth, not grace, that allowed so many who knew full well what was taking place, yet stood silently by while many suffered torment, ship-wreck of their faith, and some took their very lives.
Those of you who would sacrifice truth on the altar of compassion, hear what the word of God says to you:

When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
Ezekiel 33:8
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!  Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!
Isaiah 5:20,21a

It s my sad conclusion that the BB has ceased to be place where not only grace, but also truth prevails. It is a place I no longer care to be. Those of you who know me, I do not have to justify my position to you- the day will declare it. I have no greater joy than to hear that God’s people are walking in the truth - beware all those who seduce you with the notion that it can be lightly sacrificed on any altar.

May the God of all grace keep to the time of the end, those who have truly been bought with the precious blood of His dear Son, our risen, reigning Lord Jesus Christ.

Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
John 17:17


In the eternal joy of HIs service,
Verne

On clear instructions from my Lord and Master, one final post is required.
While I do not believe anything I have posted on this BB is untrue, not everything I have posted has been charitable. Frequently in my haste to join the battle, I have not always followed the Biblical admonition:
Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt..
Colossians 4:6

Upon careful reflection, there are a number of you whom I offended and therfore must humbly ask your forgiveness. This must be done publicly and not privately as I intended to do.
Therefore, Matt, MGov, Al Hartman, Luke and Paul Robinson, Mark and Daniel Teater, Affriming and any others that I fail to name,  I humbly ask you to forgive the sometimes harsh tone of my commentary and pray for me that God would give me a heart truly like His. I am praying that God would graciously teach me to always speak the truth in love.
God richly bless and goodbye all...
In Christ,
Verne

Dear Verne and all,

     You were forgiven before you asked, dear Brother, but thank you for the public statement.  It means a lot to many.

     There are two sides to each of us:  a BC (Before Christ) persona and a DD (Day of our Lord) character.  The latter is the new creation which we became through Jesus Christ's completed work in his life, death, burial, resurrection, transfiguration, and ascention.  That person is perfect, lacking nothing, and no apology is ever necessary for his behavior.
     But our BC person is an atrocity, a dead and decaying, stinking mess that can cling to us only because it dwells in our flesh:  the old sin-polluted body which goes with us everywhere, and shall until the Lord presents us with a new, glorified body to replace it, thus completing the manifestation of our complete redemption in him.
     Before we were born again by receiving Christ by grace through faith, we had built up quite a history with our "old man," our carnal (fleshly) persona:  We had established a plethora of behavior patterns, or habits.  Those did not go away when we accepted Christ.  They are still part and parcel with this body of sin which we drag around with us like Jacob Marley's chains.
     BUT-- Hallelujah!  They are no part of the new man which we have become in Christ, in whom we are hid from all the sinfulness of our past!  And now we study to learn Christ, that we may know him, love him and allow him to express himself to, in and through us.  Which involves also learning that the old sinful nature which clings so tenaceously to our earth-bound bodies has no authority by which to manifest itself in us.
     The intercourse between the redeemed is not of the old creation, the flesh, but is of the spirit, the new creation in Christ Jesus.
     But we don't always readily distinguish between the voices we hear.  Sometimes our reaction to a situation is so powerful, that we only hear one voice and, as we are Christians, we assume it to be the right voice.  Sometimes it is not.  BUT, because Christ lives in us, to will and to do his good pleasure, making us eternally grateful for so great salvation, giving us the DESIRE to hear the voice of the Lord, he speaks to us, and we hear him, even if it is after the fact.
     And WHAT do we hear?  Accusation?  Condemnation?  Pain and suffering because of our lapse, our failure?
NO!  We hear the powerful but loving voice of our savior, instructing us how to go on, to continue in our walk with him, because all was forgiven at Calvary.
     What is the mark of a godly man?  Is it that God speaks to him?  No, the Lord speaks to all of us, if we will but hear his voice.  But the sign of a godly man is that he hears the voice of God, he listens, and he obeys, no matter what that entails.  It is not an easy thing to apologize after having taken a strong stand.  But it is a godly thing, and worthy of recognition and appreciation.

Gratefully, in the love of Christ,
al Hartman

Al, it would mean a lot to many if you were to apologize for interrupting our discussion in the "Does Hebrew 10:24-25 Really Say That Christians Must Go To Church?"  

As for the rest of the post--it's been awhile since I've been under the influence of assembly false-teachings, and I needed a translator to understand what Al wrote.  I looked through the Mantra of Jabez and Seven Habits of Highly Effective Cult-Leaders (aka, how to turn CEO's into Mormons) but could find nothing.  I even searched Getting Money by Selling Faux Spiritual Books to Gullible People is My Purpose-Driven Life, and still found nothing.  Not until I turned to The Mystical Christian Life by Nee did I find a useful bridge.


Translation:
     There are two sides to each of us:  a BA(Before Assembly) persona and a SDEALTA(Still Delusional Even After Leaving The Assembly) character.  The latter is a new rendition of age-old hypocrisy, spiritual darkness and counterfeit Christianity, which we took on while in the assembly through the deceptive work of George Geftakys--his horrible example, false teachings, spiritual abuse and the list goes on.  That person is haughty and unrepentant, always thinks everything is spiritual and believes himself to be a master among spiritual babes, and no apology is ever necessary for his behavior.  
      But our BA persona is an attrocity, a totally unspiritual, worldly wretch that could never understand higher spiritual mumbo jumbo apart from the assembly.  There is still some of the BA in us that clings to us and tries to get us to no longer become delusional.  It will go with us everywheres, lurking in the shadows waiting to jump out and make us see things clearly.  And it shall continue to do so until the day that the assembly starts meeting again and a new leader is setup who will establish a new, glorified assembly--one that will totally purge us of our ability to reason and think that just maybe we are being deceived.

You see, dear saints, the fleshly BA persona can never grasp spiritual concepts such as:
-we are a "new creation" in Christ Jesus "perfect, lacking nothing"... yet we carry our old sin-polluted bodies with us everywhere.
-Hallelujah! our old behavior patterns and habits are "no part of the new man."  Unfortunately..."they did not go away when we accepted Christ."
-though it was "by grace through faith" that we were born again, we need "to study to learn Christ that we may know him, love him and allow him to express himself to, in and through us." What's more, we need to learn the "old sinful nature which clings so tenaceously to our earth-bound bodies has no authority by which to manifest itself in us."

I'm going to tell it to you straight, dear friends.  You cannot learn these things unless you are delusio...I mean spiritual.  I know, to the natural man, all these things sound like contradictions and double-talk.  If only you had the capacity to understand that good is evil and evil is good!  You need to be spiritual like I am, can't you see that?!  What the <censored> is the matter with you people, can't you see that I'm spiritual?!!  


Translation:
     When we, the redeemed, talk to each other, we don't talk in the flesh but in the spirit...well, most of the time.   But sometimes we mess up and become unspiritual for a brief moment in time.  What happens is we put the body of sin back on and are fleshly again.  I know the Bible says that the body of sin was destroyed but somehow we carry it around with us so it is always there--kinda like dirty socks lying on the bedroom floor.  But then, much like the Incredible Hulk reverting back to David Banner, the flesh goes away and we quickly become spiritual again and have to repent of being in the flesh.
      During the brief time that we are in the flesh, we hear voices in our heads, but not the voice of Jesus.  After the flesh-minute is over, we hear Jesus' voice once again and he is the one who tells us to repent of that flesh-quickie.  The reason we hear Jesus is because he lives in us...I guess he goes to sleep or leaves our bodies for the brief flesh-break, I dunno. When he's back, we DESIRE to hear the voice of the Lord again and then he speaks to us, and we'll listen because he tells us there is no condemnation for whatever we did during the flesh-fest.
I'm telling ya straight, saints, THAT is the mark of a goldy man!

---

And THAT is a bunch of nonsense that we were all taught in the assembly.  I'm sorry it has to be this way, Al.  Your post warrants this type of response similar to Verne being accurate when he called the boys "morons".  

Arthur

Al, what Arthur is saying is that you should apologize for taking brent and lurker to task for their abusive behavior. Arthur, of course, wouldn't be saying anything if you had limited your criticism to just me. It's so sad to see Arthur in this kind of bondage to a man. First he was bonded to GG, and now to Brent. As he at one time thought GG was infallible and above reproach, he now thinks Brent is. I pray that he will stop putting himself in bondage to men and will look to the Lord.

 

You call that a translation?! I call that completely rewriting what Al was trying to say. Al could have summed up what he was saying into a few lines. That's kind of underhanded, trying to twist around what he was saying merely to take a jab at Al. In fact, he wrote this commending Verne for repenting on the bb of his abusive behavior to those individuals he named. Before you call Al to repent, let's see you repent for your abusive behavior on the bb.


How sad, Arthur. You have stooped so low as to attack perfectly good preaching. You say that was a bunch of nonsense taught in the assembly? That's a basic mainstream Christian message that Al had. And the only thing delusional was your twisting everything he said into some psychopathic looking scrawlings in the notebook of a loony frenchie.


From your mouth to God's ears...

And this last quote shows that you weren't glorifying Lord or edifying His people, but merely writing out of bitterness and attempting to take a jab at Al, me, and whoever the other "boys" are that you are referring to. The hypocrisy is out of control. After this last post, Arthur, it will be very hard to take you seriously ever again. Let's not ever hear you complain about how you were treated in the assembly again until you yourself stop abusing other people.

- Matt

Al, what Matt is saying is that he doesn't really understand what I wrote, but he has a vague awareness that I wrote some irrefutable truth about the destructive nature of the assembly and George's false teachings.  Since he is unable to refute the truth of what was written, he is attacking the person who wrote it by trying a little reversal that, although cute, is a wee bit on the unconvincing side.  Reminiscent of the Robinson boys, wouldn't you say?

Matt, maybe you can explain to us all how it is that you know more about what went on in the assembly than Tom Maddux?  You were in there for a couple of years in San Diego, right?  Surely that gives you quite a vantage point far exceeding Tom's to tell him that he doesn't know what he's talking about.  What does being 18 years in the Fullerton assembly--most of which as a leading brother and worker--matter...right? What does having 15 years being out to reflect give him over anybody else with a quick witt and a sharp mind...right Matt?

Anything else you want to add Matt?  Maybe Al wants to say something about how we all should coddle and listen to you.  Anything spiritual you want to add Al?  Maybe we're all stepping into the flesh here for a moment...funny, I don't hear any voices, do you Al?
Maybe we should all just let the truth go down the toliet and join back up with the assembly?  Waddya say?!  

Stop sticking up for the lie.

Arthur

Oh, let's talk trash about the Robinson boys after they delete their accounts. Nice one, big guy. What do you mean refute the truth of what you wrote? The truth was in Al's preaching - not in your 'translations' of Al's preaching. What you wrote didn't even look like it was written by someone coherent - of course I don't understand it. Yes, we were taught that we "cannot learn things unless we were delusional." And also using <censored> words is ok to demand that people recognize we were spiritual.

As for your second point, you think the assembly taught that Jesus "falls asleep" or "takes a break" while we are sinning? No, sir - that's ridiculous.



So emotional, Arthur. The problem with Tom Maddux's post is that he is trying to accuse honest, hard-working LB's of abusing the saints, just because he abused the saints. He also has a funny idea of financial exploitation. If the saints freely gave after being told only that their money was for "work here and abroad," then that was enough accounting to satisfy them. AND no one was ever forced to give their money. So, just because he was a worker, doesn't mean he has infallible logic.


I have been so coddled on this bb, the kindness is killing me, Arthur! The ex-assemblyites have been such great examples for me, luke and paul, affirming, etc. The ex-assemblyites treat us in the same way they complained about being treated - and then expect to be taken seriously.  It's chilling to see someone so deceived. Honestly, Arthur, don't place a man as your idol. Brent is just a man, just like GG was. You don't need to idolize a man. You need to trust in the Lord.

 Why wd. anything else need to be said? Good job.
We are all aware of the Scripture that with God all things are possible. As assembly members, and as participators in this website, we've also learned that with men almost anything is possible. Truth is to equip us to act, not to paralyze us into some kind of que serra, serra attitude, in which God is supposed to do for us what we shd. be doing ourselves-like discerning and opposing evil. Someone got fed up and did something about it! Sounds pretty human to me. After all, we ARE human. All of us.

a good link for all of us on occasion:
http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html

matt,

since i can safely assume you did actually read what tom wrote, below is one example among many that leads me to believe you are deliberately choosing to misunderstand, and that the only reason you post here is because you enjoy inciting argument (as opposed to discussion). evidence for that can be found under the 10 most recent posts link most of the time. if you wanted to understand, your understanding would have grown by now, and we would be having discussions, not pointlessly rehashed arguments. you are not alone in this, of course, but you are the most extreme example i'm aware of at this point. you have gotten to the point where you toss out eyewitness testimony because you simply don't want to believe it. your deliberate blindness dosen't bother me personally, but you are ruining what could be good discussions with it, and i'd like you to take it elsewhere. i'm not banning your account or kicking you off as an admin - i am saying as a fellow member of this bb community that you have soundly and repeatedly lost the same arguments over and over, yet your blind refusal to acknowledge facts that are in front of your face has gotten to the point where is it tearing apart the fabric of this online community, and i really want you to go away. the sloppy falliciousness of your arguments and your dogged persistence in a position you have not been able to defend has gone so far that either your blind faith is completely out of control, or you are being malicious. either way, your high posting rate makes this a real problem, which is why i'm writing this in such strong terms.

This is so sad...


What did I misunderstand about Mr. Maddux's post, sir? I had no problem with his personal repentance. I didn't "misunderstand" him when he said that "every LB exploited the saints." And that was the only problem I had with that post, sir.


I don't think you mean "if I wanted to understand." What I think you're saying is "if you wanted to be of the same opinion as Brent Tr0ckman and his followers, you would have done so by now." The thing is, I'm not of the same opinion as Brent Tr0ckman or his followers. I see how heavy-handedly they've dealt with people who disagree with them, and I don't want to be associated with that verbal brutality. It is also alarming to see the amount of deception going on here. Brent has become an idol to you and everyone who disagrees is the "enemy." That's really frightening.


I've never thrown out anyone's eye witness testimony. I've never accused anyone of lying when they gave an eye-witness account. i've never denied that people were abused. I've only refuted the lack of logic that people show when they equate their eye witness testimony as some sort of standard by which to judge all LB's or the whole assembly system. Speaking of not "wanting to believe something," I think you are guilty of that , sir, by largely ignoring Brent, Verne, Arthur, Lurker's indiscretion. Sadly, only 2 in that group have repented for their verbal abuse of the younger brethren and of affirming.


The arrogance is overwhelming. I have "repeatedly lost the same arguments over and over again." "the sloppy fallaciousness of my arguments" "position I have not been able to defend" "blind faith" "Malicious."

Sorry, those are all emotional terms. I didn't lose any arguments because you said "um..you lose." Maybe you need to read through some of the sites on that link you provided.I think in many ways, the behavior of Brent and his followers have really spoken to their hypocrisy. Just look at this latest post. "i'd really like you go to away." These are the same people that complain that the assembly was exclusive! (that's exactly what God would say too, "get out of my sight!! just go away!!) Or how about the verbal abuse (shamefully from the older brethren to the younger) on this bb - the same kind of abuse they complained about while they were in the assembly. Or the threats and intimidation - like when Arthur blackmailed me into removing a post to Verne by gathering up all my bad posts and threatning to post them (which he did) - reminiscient of some of the problems that people had in the assembly. And we can't forget Brent and Verne's mistreatment of Affirming - the same people who complain that women were disrespected in the assembly...interesting. I suppose I could also mention people's willingness to believe that Brent is infallible. I think these are the same people that attached themselves too much to GG. They're used to following a man, and not the Lord.

And what's this verne?
Posted by: vernecarty Posted on: Today at 04:58:54pm
Thanks for that link Bran...a most insightful header:

"The jawbone of an ass is just as dangerous a weapon today as in Sampson's time."
--- Richard Nixon
 
I thought you were being led to stop posting. Did the Lord tell you to start posting again?

you're quite the expert on what is and is not sad, aren't you?  :)


well, since you asked so nicely...

that quote should be "All the leading brothers, in all the assemblies, were involved in the financial exploitation of the saints." that means the saints were financially exploited, and the leaders were involved in that process. you shouldn't put quotes and then twist, er, paraphrase what he said. i'm not going to dig up your entire post in response to his, despite your misleading comment that "that was the only problem you had with that post". there is quite enough for me to play with in the couple short paragraphs i have right here.


he was giving eyewitness testimony of what he did in collaboration with a bunch of other honest, hard-working leading brothers. it is possible to be honest, hard-working, abusive, and wrong all at the same time. tom clearly stated the false teachings that all the leading brothers worked hard at propogating. he didn't say that they all did this maliciously - after all, they were pumping the money into george's pocket, not their own. all tom said was the simple fact that they all participated in it, as leaders in the church. that is a terrible, sad thing. but its not complicated, and i can hardly believe that you didn't understand what he was saying. you simply didn't want to face that fact, apparently.


actually, as i'm sure you well know, we were all assured repeatedly that the money was used for the work of the Lord both here and abroad. as opposed to: going directly into george's wallet. it was belief in that deception that made what happened exploitation. exploitation: Utilization of another person or group for selfish purposes. yes, the leaders were also exploited to some degree, but they also did far more to propogate the exploitation than the average member, which is what tom was explaining that he saw happen.

and since you made the broad sweeping generalization that noone was forced to give money, tell me, whats the difference between pressured and forced? pressured becomes forced when the one who is pressured capitulates. you are quite sure NOONE was EVER pressured to donate money without having any idea where it was going?  does the phrase "why are you so worried about what God is doing with His money *suspicious stare*" ring any bells around here?

again, i'm not saying all the leaders were malicious in doing this, but there is no denying they did it to people who believed that their trusted shepherds would never do/say that unless it could be relied on. which is precisely why the position of leader in God's house is such a solemn responsibility to assume - and each of them knowingly assumed it.

its also true that many (most?) leading brothers have publicly apologized and worked hard at making right these sorts of things. this is old news to those who were actually involved, matt. thats why we're all so suprised that you still refuse to understand.


first of all, who made that claim?  ??? secondly, he wasn't building logical arguments - he was giving eyewitness testimony to facts that have been well established by many witnesses.



this is obviously just silliness. do i really need to answer it? *sigh* ok, just this once, because i'm in a good mood.

so, nope, you had it right the first time - i meant exactly "if you wanted to understand", not that other line in quotes. you weren't seriously trying to convince me that i meant something else, were you? heavy-handedly?? he responded to your posts on a bb. who is the victim now? you taunt people with nonsensical arguments and then you pounce on any emotional reaction like a prize you can wave around whenever you want to discredit something entirely unrelated that they said. please go read that link about fallicious arguments and clear up your thinking. please? you think brent is my idol? i never even hinted at him in my post. i never talk about brent. that you would so sloppily lump everyone who disagrees with you together as a follower of brent is simply absurd. and you can quote me on that anytime - i know how you love to quote words like sloppy and absurd. just try really hard not to forget the context, ok?

so, what is this alarming amount of deception all about - specifically?


by now you must know that i was referring to tom's, as this is a simple and clear case close at hand.


i never said you did. talking about things i never said about what you never said is really boring and complicated. shall we avoid it in the future?


um, yeah, that was eyewittness testimony of a large majority of leading bros and the assembly system.

incidentally, aren't you taking your small amount of time in the assembly and experiences with one (two?) leading brother(s), which was positive, "as some sort of standard by which to judge all LB's or the whole assembly system"?


but they have repented of it repeatedly and publicly. a heated debate is not always abuse. its not an easy judgement call, and i really prefer noninterfence whenever possible. notice i never accused you of being verbally abusive.


yeah, sorry about that. i didn't mean to overwhelm you. but why should i state my thoughts as though they are not really what i think? i know i could be wrong, but why should i assume i am? arrogance would be simply deleting your account, rather than debating you. obviously, i think my opinions are right, or they wouldn't be my opinions.


sorry, i wasn't emotional at the time. are you making the argument that if i was emotional, they wouldn't be true? you will read that page on fallacies won't you? soon?


no, its more of a consensual reality kind of thing.

i'm sorry, i am really out of time. if you are still unsure about what i was talking about, please point me at some paragraphs that you believe to be your very strongest points and i'll work through them with you. i simply don't have time  or inclination to rehash all your posts, or to even keep up with your average posting rate.

brian[/quote][/quote]

It's becoming that way, sir. It's sad to see people still in bondage to their hatred of the assembly and to the LB's who loved and served them.


play with the paragraphs? And people accused me of thinking this was all a game! Actually, I didn't twist Tom Maddux around at all. I said every Lb instead of his "all lB's." I also dropped the word "financial."


Sorry, you make it sound like all the money was funneled into GG's slush fund. Where are all the millions of dollars that GG has taken from us? Where's that mansion of his? I'm not defending GG, by the way. He needs to repent. I'll even grant that he did launder some money - but if he did: The LBs aren't responsible if GG misled them on how the money was to be spent. Perhaps the ones in Fullerton (like tom maddux) could see how the money was spent, but how is an LB in...say Chicago or Providence, RI going to see how the money is spent. Were they going to fly out to LA, drive to Fullerton, every week of course, and make sure all the money was going to be spent on the "Lord's work."


Actually, forced is when you don't have a choice. All the saints had a choice about whether to give money or not. If they felt pressured to give money when they didn't want to, they could have left the assembly at any time. Nobody was pinned down while their wallet was fished out of their pants or purse (well...I don't know. But if that did happen, they should have just called the police).


What can they say? Sorry we didn't know about GG's money laundering? How can you apologize for something you had no idea about. That's like me saying sorry for not knowing who you were in 1997.


What's the deception all about? You were completely blind to Brent's abusive history in this last quote of yours. If you think that all brent did was ok because it was just a bb, but you think that I'm dangerous because I'm tearing apart the fabric of this online community (sorry if I got that quote wrong), then you're holding Brent to a different standard. You're blind to his sin. So, no, I don't think that everyone who disagrees with me is a follower of Brent, but people who can't see his indiscretion, but can see his oppositions..well...




No, sir - that's ridiculous. I'm not judging the whole assembly system by my own experience. Read above where i say that I don't deny people were abused.



Nope, not all of them. Verne and Brent did. Verne's apology needs to be taken with a grain of salt. He has posted on here with the intention of offending with that quote from your link after he repented. I have also emailed him 3 times in hopes of some kind of reconciliation, and he has only responded to one email.


Well, those certainly are terms of reason. malicious? sloppy? lost the same arguments? These are nothing more than opinions.

Have a great weekend.

- Matt

Pro.29:9
"If a wise man contends with a fool, the fool only rages or laughs and there is no rest."
Pro.21:16
"The man that wanders out of the way of understanding shall remain in the congregation of the dead"
Pro.26:12
"See a man wise in his own conceit ? There is more hope for a fool than for him."
James 1:5
"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God that gives to all men liberally without faultfinding; and it shall be given him."
Pro.29:2
"When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked man rules, the people groan and sigh."

I have been startled by the e-mails from some of you expressing disappointment with the manner in which I left the BB. I would point out that I never posted on the BB in any official capacity and considered myself a regular poster. Some of you contend that my responsibility in a local gathering requires a higher standard of me in defense of the truth.
I will confess that I never considered that anything I wrote would be viewed in that context as I never mentioned any such responsibility. In fact the reason I deleted most of my posts was that I did not think it fair to leave positions I would no longer be defending in the marketplace. I am sorry if this offended some.
Upon some reflection I will post, in the near future a more detailed explanation Of my decision under the thread:
“How To Biblically Deal With A Heretic”
Its purpose will be to present the position I think every servant of Jesus Christ should take on the subject and as a direct response to those of you who invoked my own responsibility in that regard. Thank you for your entreaty.
For those of you who asked if I would be willing to answer any question you have, I would. I would however, prefer  to respond privately rather than via the BB.

"Text:  The Greek word hairesis means: (1) a choice e.g., Lev. 22:18, 21 (LXX), where "gifts according to their choice" means free-will offering; (2) a chosen opinion, the only NT example being in II Pet. 2:1, where "destructive opinions" are caused by false teaching; (3) a sect or party (holding certain opinions), used in the NT (a) of the Sadducees and Pharisees (Acts 5:17; 15:5), (b) of the Christians (Acts 24:14; 28:22; in 24:14 Paul substitutes "way" for "heresy," possibly because he himself had given the word the bad meaning), and (c) a sect or faction within the Christian body (being synonymous with "schism" in I Cor. 11:19; Gal. 5:20), and resulting not so much from false teaching as from the lack of love and from self-assertiveness, which lead to divisions within the Christian community. It is the meaning given to hairesis in II Peter which came to predominate in Christian usage.
Heresy is a deliberate denial of revealed truth coupled with the acceptance of error.

The creeds were considered to contain the standard of truth and correct belief, and themselves formally contradicted various false teachings, e.g., Arianism, Apollinarianism, Nestorianism, and Eutychianism. The union of church and state after Nicaea led in time to legal penalties against heretics. Paul's and Luke's usage (#3 above) survives in, e.g., Eusebius's History X. v. 21-22, where Christianity is "our most sacred heresy," and Augustine Epistle 185, a valuable commentary on the early Christian idea of heresy."
Elwell's Evangelical Dictionary
Verne

Brent, I apologize for those of us who treated you wrongly.  I hate to see you go brother!  I'm going to stop posting myself.  It's high time I got on with my life and stop the mindless bickering.  If this is what you call conversation, I want NOTHING to do with it.  I'll be emailing Brent directly for questions I have.  He is one of the few mature people posting on this BB.

Hi Eulaha, Verne, and Others! :)
  I hope there are some left here to read this post as it appears everyone is leaving.  I'm very sorry to see, what I consider very necessary contributions, from very good folks, no longer on the BB.
   I don't think Brent or Verne are the types to run away from insulting posters, or to retreat in the battle for the truth.  I think we can take their decisions to leave at face value and see that they are seeking to honor Christ.
  Verne has raised the issue of dealing with heresy and the Biblical injunction to avoid these kind of individuals.  There is no doubt that heresy, and some very confused teaching, has been presented by some posters here.
  It is to be expected that many (especially recent members) of the Assembly are confused re. what is right or wrong in re. to their former instruction.  
   Posters who, while confused, come to the BB to learn have rarely (John Malone is gone) been  jumped on for their errors and have been treated with tolerance and respect.  Even those who have departed the faith have not been treated as enemies here, but as those we hope to persuade to return to Christ.  Most of us understand the destructive power the Assembly had in former members lives and are sensitive to the need to "restore such a one in the spirit of humility."
  So how to deal with heretical opposition on a BB?  I had a change of heart a couple of months ago re. this after reading Matt's and Luke's apology and, what I believed to be, a sincere explanation of their situation.  Maybe I was deceived (it wouldn't be the first time) and these individuals lacked sincerity and are only intent on destroying the BB.  But, maybe I was right and these two young men are only confused and are searching for answers.
  It is impossible for anyone to know the motives of anothers heart while posting and some times the most cynical individual becomes the most serious disciple("can anything good come out of Nazareth?").
   Is Matt a heretic because he seeks to defend certain aspects of the Assembly?  Some of his arguments have some logic, such as not all leading bros. are equally culpable.  Matt's exposure to the Assembly was limited and he is defending only what he's seen.  What is so frustrating is that he rejects those who have had many years of experience with the Assembly who attempt to entreat him.  Is it heretical to be unentreatable, insulting, and a  frustating individual?  Yes, he has made some clearly false statements and doesn't seem to understand why, but heretical?
  This troubles greatly (myself included) those who were deeply hurt by the Assembly system.  We have all read the testimonies of those abused in this system.  Those that would dismiss, excuse, or deny that the Assembly of GG was contrary to the purpose of Jesus Christ invoke a great deal of pain and anger from many of us here.  As I've said before, this emotional reaction can be righteous indignation if it arises in response to the defense of the truth, and the little one's offended by that evil system.
   I think, in re. to heresy, that there is a difference in how we respond in a church setting vs. a public forum like this BB.  The concern re. heresy is it's propagation.  In a church we can censure a false teacher, on a street corner all we can do is ignore him(the right of free speech).  On this BB there will be those here who desperately need to hear the healing words of truth and grace and if we decide to depart, in reaction to heretical posters, the needy are left with only the heretical side of the argument.  I believe the "leave them alone" argument does not mean to abandon the public square, or else Paul never would have gone to Mars Hill and preached.
   The darkness has never mastered the light and the simple Gospel message will defeat even the most deceitful conspiracies that Satan can muster against it.  This is just as true re. the truth of God's purpose of grace in his people.  The false and damaging teaching/practices will be rejected by those that hear the voice of the Master.  There will always be those who seek to draw disciples after themselves and wish mastery over other believers, and to this we must continue to announce the liberty of the grace of God in truth.
                              God Bless,  Mark  
   

This is what is so frightening. Brent was the only reason you came to this bb? We all lose out if Brent isn't here? You won't post anymore if Brent leaves? Stop idolizing a man, Eulaha. Brent's just a man, he's not God! You are right about your last sentence, Luke R, Paul R, Affirming, etc deleted their accounts and said "forget it." I lift you up in prayer, Eulaha. I entrust you to Him - I pray that you will repent for your verbal degradation of Luke and Paul R  and myself and that you will be freed from your bondage to brent and your hatred of a church (the Assembly).


I agree with this completely, Mark. When Brent and Verne realized that this bb does not honor Christ, they decided to move on to something that will (I pray). I think we have to keep our eyes on Verne though. He said he was under clear direction from the Lord to stop posting and he repented for his verbal abuse of many individuals on the bb. Sadly, even though he is a man in his 40's, he was unable to to be a good example and a shepherd to the younger brethren on the bb. He has also gone against what the Lord has told him in regards to his final posting. I pray for Verne too, just that he would begin to honor Christ in his posts and that he would remember that God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.


Well, I'm unsure why you put Luke in a position to defend his point of view when he has long since deleted his account. I am here, though, and I'm afraid that you're wrong on both counts. That is, I didn't deceive you into thinking that I was sincere just so I could "destroy the bb." And, you are incorrect to think that I'm confused. I know exactly where I stand. I'm here to defend the majority of LB's - the one's who poured their hearts and souls out for the welfare of the saints. I'm sure it was stunning for most of them to have the saints on this bb turn around and slap them in the face. These men gave their LIVES to the saints. Making themselves available to the saints for 4 or 5 gatherings a week, taking a personal interest in the spiritual welfare of the saints, etc etc, in addition to having jobs and a families of their own.  To claim that all the LB's exploited or abused the saints is ridiculous - even if ex-LB's claim that all the LB's abused the saints or exploited the saints. They can repent for themselves, but they cannot assume that since they abused saints (like tom maddux) that means that every LB abused saints. We are to honor the LB's that served us well (look at my signature line).
 


Good point, sir.
 


Heretical?!?! No, sir - that's ridiculous.  People called Brent a bunch of names when he created the website - diabolical, etc. I guess you learn that just because someone calls you these things - that doesn't mean you are! Verne's engaged in a lot of name calling, so don't worry, sir, I'm not taking him seriously. He has repeatedly ignored attempts from me to form a reconciliation, so sad. Another problem with Verne is that he believes that everyone who disagrees with Brent's and his opinion is against the truth. I guess everyone feels that way when someone disagrees with them.

Also, you claim that I reject entreaty from the ex-LB's like Tom Maddux. I reject what I know to be false, and I know that Tom Maddux has not observed every LB's behavior to see if they exploited or abused saints. Tom Maddux was also in Fullerton and so he had access to information that the vast majority of LB's couldn't have seen. Brent (though not an LB) was at SLO and also could observe things that the vast majority of LB's outside of Fullerton and SLO (and I'll even throw in the SF Valley for good measure) could not have seen. Those are 3 assemblies though out of many.

Last week, we had an interesting sermon about how we act in front of unbelievers based on some verses, but I found this one to be the best one in regard to this bb:

"If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. (5) I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?" - 1 Corinthians 6:4-5

To drag a Christian brother or sister, whether it be LB's or not, into the public forum for the purpose of rebuking them in front of all is wrong - primarily because this bb is not limited to believers. Paul said that is to YOUR shame! Unbelievers can see the backbiting taking place among the disgruntled ex-assemblyites and think "look how these Christians backbite and harbor bitterness and wrath." This BB is hardly Christ-honoring, and, no, it's not because of my presence here. If I left, the public accusations against LB's (like from Tom Maddux) would still be present for all unbelievers to see.

- Matt

Luke 6:41-45
"Why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but pay no attention to the log in your own eye ?How can you say to your brother,'Please brother let me take that speck out of your eye', yet cannot see the log in your own eye?
You hypocrite! First take the log out of your own eye,and then you will be able to see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.
"A healthy tree does not bear bad fruit , nor does a poor tree bear good fruit. Every tree is known by the fruit it bears; you do not pick figs from thorn bushes.
A good person brings good out of the treasure of good things in his heart; a bad person brings bad out of his  treasure of bad things.
For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.

Hi Matt! :)
  I sent an e-mail and PM to you and would like to hear back from you.
  I'm glad that you responded to my post as I hope that you will prayerfully consider what follows.
   My first concern re. your position is in your personal attacks against the character of Verne, Eulaha, and Brent.  To say that they do the same thing to the leading bros. would be a childish argument.  Your position re. the defense of the Assembly is not the problem, but your suggestion that you know the motives of those who oppose you.  As I mentioned in my last post, I have repented of making these kinds of judgments re. those I differ with on the BB.  Mark Kisla posted some verses on this thread that are applicable.
  Make your arguments, but assume those that disagree are sincere in their position.  Only God knows their motives, and we cross boundaries when we assume an evil hidden agenda.  I:Cor. 13 asks us to believe the best re. anothers motive and to recognize that it is God that changes hearts.  As we show true concern, (even for those that oppose themselves), we can pour hot coals on the consciences of those who err. (we can all profit from understanding the above and I am not just talking to you Matt re. this)
   I will say that I believe that you are confused Matt, not insincere, but confused.  You may be confident in what you have shared, but it is contrary in some areas to orthodox Christian teaching.  In these areas we are called to excercise discernment and judgment, and are not called to be tolerant.
   Such doctrinal/practical judgments are absolutely necessary for they are the difference between spiritual life or death.  Those who follow Assembly false teaching (Galatianism, nicolaitism, false mysticism,etc.) are under a curse.  The false teaching/abusive control has been clearly documented in GG's own hand and from many eyewitness accounts.
   Re. your defense of the "many" leading bros. who may have not subscribed fully to the above (or possibly at all) and the claim that some Assemblies were normal healthy churches:  There may be something to this argument, but it is difficult to make such an assesment without stepping back and having the awareness of what is God's view of a healthy church.
  From what I have seen of your understanding of the Bible I would say, though your leading bros. in SD were very sincere and hardworking, they let you down considerably.  As I've said before, the instruction in the Assembly was mostly of a devotional nature.  This devotional instruction tends to deal with subjective issues and interprets one's relationship with God based on how I am responding to the demands to follow Christ.
   Making "heart knowledge", and one's own ability to actualize their faith, the sum and substance of a life in Christ leads to a very weak and/or dangerous setup.  It leads to a rejection of clarity re. the true nature of the grace of God and as such a healthy life in God.  Your position that all churches/leaders are heretical to some degree shows that you are not clear re. the simple Gospel and the confidence we can have re. the truth that sets one free.
  I come back to my oft used example of the Church at Laodicea.  Christ comes to the church with a call to repent (change the way they think).  It would have been silly for protestors to arise and defend the diligence of the leaders in the church as this was not the issue.  Christ's concern for Laodicea was their blindness to their own condition and their need to find grace working in their lives-- they desperately needed to learn to live by the Gospel! (See Jerry Bridges article on the Assembly Reflections home page.)
  I believe Jesus was/is knocking at the door of the Assembly (and not just the Assembly) because he desires to bless our lives with his gracious presence.  This always comes from a clear understanding of the grace of God in truth, as it is revealed in the Gospel, that gives us spiritual life and light.
  We don't know how Laodicea responded to Jesus knock at their door, or if they rejected the entreaty to consider the possibility that they erred in their understanding, but the exhortation is still calling out to us today.
  What is the greater risk?  To reject the call to repent as "of the Devil",  "an evil conspiracy of embittered exmembers", or to receive Jesus' entreaty to understand the true nature of life in Christ and enjoy his blessing.  
   The choice seems clear to me and in following the latter we can only advance the cause of the Gospel in His peoples' lives.
                                   God Bless,  Mark    

Hi All!  Although I have been a frequent poster in the past, I had taken a break from entering into the fray of posting.  I have kept up with the dialogues (I believe there are many "lurkers" who monitor the BB but don't enter into the discussion.)

I have been rather concerned with the "factions" that have been "lining up", opposing one another and entering into argument, rather than dialogue.  As Brian stated on another thread re: communication (much better than I could) this is a community of individuals who are desiring to come together for a common purpose.  For most, that purpose has been to discuss their experiences (however short or long) in the assembly and to find healing and answers.  Every once in a while, there is a person or persons who seek to enter into the discussion and defend the system most of us have fled.  

What has been most difficult is that a BB community is only two dimensional.  And what has often transpired is that the conversation degenerates into an argument rather than constructive dialogue.  Upon listening to our pastors' sermon this morning on Acts 17:15-21, I was burdened to share what the Lord has laid on my heart regarding this issue, but I fear I won't be able to communicate effectively.

Those who seek to defend the assembly do not see the error in the teachings and have been taught to think in a certain fashion.  It is just these ones the Lord would seek for us to reach out to with the gospel of grace and show them the liberty with which Christ has set us free.  To descend into arguement is to invite attack.  Our pastor was pointing out Pauls' state as he arrived in Athens in Acts 17, verse 16, "Now while Paul was waiting for them in Athens his spirit was being provoked within him as he was observing the city full of idols."  Paul was provoked.  He was irritated, disturbed.

3947 paroxunw paroxuno par-ox-oo’-no

from 3844 and a derivative of 3691; TDNT-5:857,791; v

AV-stir 1, easily provoked 1; 2

1) to make sharp, sharpen
1a) to stimulate, spur on, urge
1b) to irritate, provoke, arouse to anger
1b1) to scorn, despise
1b2) provoke, make angry
1b3) to exasperate, to burn with anger

The pastor brought out that although Paul was all these things; angry, disturbed, irritated, he did not lash out at these ones (who were filled with idolatry - like the assembly) but he reached out to these ones with compassion, love - the gospel.  He mentioned 2Cor 5:14, "For the love of Christ constraineth us..."  

Now isn't this what happens when someone comes to the BB defending what we know now to be idolatry and heretical teaching?  We become angry, provoked, disturbed.  And why?  Because for many of us, it took so long to come out of the assembly, we endured much pain and suffering....it cost many of us dearly.  Some are even still experiencing the negative fallout from our involvement.  And this propels some of us to respond in this manner of anger resulting in arguement, etc.  But what did Paul do?  The love of Christ constrained him and he "disputed" with these ones:

1256 dialegomai dialegomai dee-al-eg’-om-ahee

middle voice from 1223 and 3004; TDNT-2:93,155; v

AV-dispute 6, reason with 2, reason 2, preach unto 1, preach 1, speak 1; 13

1) to think different things with one’s self, mingle thought with thought
1a) to ponder, revolve in mind
2) to converse, discourse with one, argue, discuss

He reasoned with them, he did not desolve into name calling (although our pastor brought out that the ones who were listening to Paul began to call him names, "babbler".)  

These ones are lost/confused and in need of the gospel of grace.  Not our treating them like we were used to being treated in the assembly.

This is my 25 cents worth (it was a little more than 2!)

Sorry for being long-winded - hope some will even read it!

For any who are interested, you can listen to the sermon on the churchs' website "www.shepherdschurch.com".  It won't be on there until probably next week, but the sermon date will be 6/15/03.  

I was greatly encouraged, perhaps some of you will be as well.

I have your PM, but no emails from you.
.


Mark, I am sad that you posted this. I didn't think you were one of the people blind to Brent's and his followers sins. Brent, praise the Lord, has repented of his treatment of the younger brethren, but Eulaha has refused to do so. Verne repented, but started up again, rather than choosing to honor Christ. I have never seen you publically speak out on some of these issues, Mark, but you sure took me, luke, paul, affirming to task a lot of times. Perhaps as a moderator, you are still with bias, and thus quick to take one side over the other.

 
ahh.....believe the best. One of my favorite things to take from the assembly. I believe the best about Eulaha and Verne's motives. Mainly, I don't believe they post be intentionally abusive, but rather they have allowed themselves to be deceived by a hatred for the assembly system and for those who appear to defend anything ...any miniscule thing about it. I do believe that God changes hearts, of course, and I pray that He will change Verne and Eulaha's hearts.


Why, Mark, defending LB's is hardly against orthodox christian teaching.
   

Right you are, Mark, and for the millionth time I will say that I do not deny that some people abused the saints. But we cannot make blanket statements like Tom Maddux made saying that all the LB's exploited and abused the saints. I think deep in the hearts of many saints, they know that they've been loved in the assembly - especially by the LB's and their families. It's enough to make a person want to weep to see these poor men slapped in the face after they worked SO HARD for the saints. (ok that was an emotional statement, and I've never weeped about it!)


WHAT AN ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE THING TO SAY, MARK!! We are to honor the LB's who labored for us, we are not to publically accuse christian brothers and sisters before unbelievers, but you still have? Does that mean that all your pastors have failed you miserably? I thank God for bringing Bob Starr into my life, and to see you backbite here is horrible, especially when he's not here to defend himself. You can be under excellent leaders, but not do a thing with it - that's not the leaders' faults, that's your own. Somebody mentioned something interesting to me the other day - was it Moses fault when the people built the golden calf?

- Matt



               

Hi Kimberley and Matt!
  Thank you so very much Kimberley for your clear presentation.  I was blessed and instructed by it and greatly appreciate the effort you put into it.
  Matt I apologize if in the past you have felt that my position is to demean any individual's character here.  I will contend earnestly against those who would teach a toxic faith and if that has been construed as an attack that certainly was not my intention.  I recognize that people sometimes are ignorant re. the consequences of what teaching they follow, but this is why we are to be entreatable one of another.
   I am not trying to insult you (or others) when I mention that I believe something you believe to be correct is wrong.  Nor am I trying to speak evil of the Leading bros. when I mention that Assembly teaching was lacking or erroneous.  The Bible commands us to test the spirits, to entreat one another; it is all part of our responsibility as brethren in Christ.  Indeed, it would be dishonoring to Christ and unloving to you if I were to remain silent.
  Can you not see that believing that all are heretical, except Christ, is an erroneous and dangerous postion to take?  Can you not see that Affirming's propagation of Local Church teaching is clearly heretical and very damaging to God's people?!  This is the kind of orthodoxy I'm refering to, and not the issue you mentioned re. whether all leaders of the Assembly are equally culpable with GG.  You take too literal of an approach with Tom's comparison and seem to make a huge effort to miss the clear point he has made.
   Maybe we better just start all over again with a fresh slate and ask the question:  What do you believe the Gospel is and what does the Gospel mean to me as a believer?  This will cut to the chase as by knowing what truth is we can clearly identify error.  I think this is the only way to break the impasse we have arrived at as we both seem to be having trouble communicating.
  (on that note your e-mail address must be wrong as listed on the BB as this is the 2nd e-mail I sent that you did not recieve)
   I hope that you take up my question and that we can discuss it in the future to the benefit of all on the BB.
                                God Bless, Mark  

 


Dear Saints, all,

     Just a few thoughts, springboarding from the insightful words of others:
 In matters of doctrine, of clear bible teaching, discernment and judgment are essential.  The word of God is not to be compromised nor trifled with, and those who do so are to be called to account.  BUT, we must be tolerant with our brethren, to not discount their sincereity of heart and spirit as long as there is any hope that they might be won over.
       Has any one of us responded instantly in full obedience every single time the Lord has shown us something new?  If so, how wonderful!  Such a one must surely see what an improbable rarity such experience is, and be predisposed to having great patience with those not equally blest with such clarity and courage.  And the rest of us, who have made our mistakes in judgment, shall we not make allowance for our brethren, as the Lord has made for us, that we all may respond aright in due time?


Truer words were never spoken.  It is one of NewMan's inviolable laws of psychical motion that "for every verbal assault, there is an opposite and equal (or greater) verbal counterassault."  Argument is aggression, and it is unreasonable to expect acquiescence without counter-aggression.  Let us speak the truth in love, becoming all things to all men, that by all means we may win some.   

 We have learned some terrible ways of treating people, formed some horrible habits in our past.  In our homes, our schools, our workaday world, the marketplace, our neighborhoods, everywhere we have been we have been exposed to godless, christless behavior.  Even in the church, other people as ill-taught as we, have treated us abusively.  The only differences in our experiences are those of degree, but it all amounts to the same thing:  without Christ in the picture, "there is none righteous, no not one."
       Ah, but with Christ, in Christ...  there is where we find the grace to love the unlovely, to call our neighbor "friend," and to lay down our life for his, in the love of our Savior.

 Seems like just the other day the Savior said the same thing to me:  As far as the East is from the West, so far shall I remove your sins from you;  though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as snow.  Come to think of it, it was just the other day, and today, and every day.  Old things are passed away, behold all things are become new.  Come, let us reason together...

       ++Let me be more demanding of myself, and less so of my brother.
       ++If my cause must be argued, it is most likely because it lacks merit to stand on its own.
       ++If my presentation depends upon attacking the position of another, upon what will it stand when the other position has been eliminated?
       ++Does the truth of God really need the cleverness of my marketing strategy?
       ++Can i admit to the idea that i may be the one who stands to learn in this situation, rather than the one i seek to teach?  Can i embrace it?
       ++Has my prayer about this matter been "Lord, not my will, but thine be done," or is it, "Lord, here is how it has to be!"?
       ++Does the prospect of my brother's redemption warm my heart, or am i anxious to see him get his comeuppance?

May we all continue to grow in the grace and love of our Lord Jesus Christ,
al Hartman

Speaking of being entreatable to one another, will you stop ignoring scripture regarding the public accusing and rebuking of Christians brothers and sisters in a public forum where unbelievers are present. I have not been teaching any kind of "toxic faith" by the way. Defending the innocent is hardly toxic. As for demeaning my character - well you gave 3 options sir. Either I deceived you, or I was intent on taking down the bb, or I am just confused. It's not right...

Anyway, just to refresh your money, it is shameful to take a Christian brother to court:

"If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. (5) I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?" - 1 Corinthians 6:4-5

What would the unbelievers on this bb think? It's hardly honoring to Christ (and, no, brian, i'm not saying take it down).


And I would be the same to you if I remained silent to your backbiting, false accusations, and un-Biblical rebuking of LB's and of any and all opposition that you or Brent may have encountered on this bb.
 

Oh, I didn't miss his point. He very clearly stated that all LB's abused the saints in the form of exploitation. I know that he hasn't observed every assembly and every LB to see if they were abusing saints. I also know that there was no way the LB's could see how the money was being spent (maybe in Fullerton they could..where..surprise..maddux was at) to make sure it was all being used for the Lord's work here and abroad. I also know that nobody was forced to give money to the assembly - there are just too many factors there to exonerate the vast majority of LB's from any wrongdoing in that regard.

 
The Gospels are the first 4 books of the NT. They outline the birth, life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. What do they mean to me? They are key in understanding Jesus' teachings.

- matt

Hi Kim,

This a good post and it is very pertinent to the issue at hand.  The issue being, as you described: "For most, that purpose has been to discuss their experiences (however short or long) in the assembly and to find healing and answers.  Every once in a while, there is a person or persons who seek to enter into the discussion and defend the system most
of us have fled. "

I have been thinking about this and wondering what my take on it should be.  At first, I didn't even want to touch those threads with a ten-foot pole.  I just saw it all as mindless, useless bickering.  I just wanted stuff like that to go away so we can talk about deeper, more meaningful issues.  But then I took a closer look at it and actually read the threads.  I found that what was going on in them was that some people were coming in and in various ways upholding the assembly/George/leaders as virtuous and/or teaching false doctrine.  There were some, namely Brent and Verne who were refuting the falsehood.  After becoming aware of this, I decided to also refute falehood and affirm the truth.  

I don't think choosing sides is wrong.  If someone is saying false things, we should say, "Hey, no, that's wrong."  Shouldn't we?  There is darkness and there is light; truth and lies.  We must choose which side we are on.  In other words, will we stand for the truth or give in to, agree with or in any other way support those who are stating lies?

In regards to your examples, they are excellent, but consider the application and context.  In Athens, Paul preached to people who had never heard the gospel before.  That's a different group than say, for example, the Jews that heard over and over again the good news of Jesus Christ and yet, not only refused to believe, but also persecuted Paul wherever he went preaching the gospel.  

To these, Paul did and said the following:
"And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean; from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles." Acts 18:6

I think the difference is clear.

Paul said to the high priest, "God shall smite thee, thou whited wall: for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten contrary to the law?"  Acts 23:3
Is that reaching out in love and compassion?  No.  But is it fitting? I think so.

Stephen, filled with the Holy Spirit, said "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and
murderers: 53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it."  Acts 7:51-53
Was this called for?  Absolutely, because it was true.

And consider the following:
"And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: 5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you."  Gal 2:4-5

"But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. 13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. 14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all..." Gal 2:11-14a

Jesus condemned the Pharisees:
"But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in....(and many more woes) " Matt 23:13-35  

John gives statements regarding two men:
"9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not. 10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church. 11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God. 12 Demetrius hath good report of all men, and of the truth itself: yea, and we also bear record; and ye know that our record is true."  III John 9-12

And some more passages, where the Bible uses clearly condemning speech regarding certain men:
II Tim 3
II Pet 2
Jude


In summary, it appears to me that it is not always the case that a Christian is to show compassion to everyone. A Christian is to avoid and/or rebuke men who know the truth but refuse to believe it and instead hold to and teach lies.


"8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. 9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds." II John 8-10

"28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears." Acts 20:28-31

George was excommunicated due to sin (Matt) that he was unwilling to repent of.

It should be shouted from the rooftops so when he goes into his next church those sheep know that he is in disguise. He is a wolf in sheep's clothing until he repents. He is dangerous.

If we aren't faithful to our own, who should we be faithful to?

Heide C. Johnson

I've never defended GG, Heide.

Hi Matt and Others,
  I am starting to weary in my attempt at civil discourse with you Matt, for I know that you can not be that obtuse.
   It is not a character flaw to be ignorant or mistaken, and as such none of us need be offended for having things brought to our attention, especially things that are offered in the desire to benefit the other; and this is my only motive here Matt.
   I know that I said we should assume sincerity on the part of a poster here, but there comes a point where it is obvious that a poster is not sincere and has ulterior motives for participation.
  RE. your false teaching:  By saying that you are mistaken, I am not calling you a heretic, but if you refuse many entreaties the title may just stick.  You have stated several times that only Jesus was not a heretic and that all Christian teachers/churches are heretical.  You can't believe this, and why you insist on it I do not know.  This is heretical because it states that there is no objective faith and thus invalidates the purpose of the word of God, which is to give us a clear understanding of the will of God.
   What you may mean is something else, but what you said needs to be made clear because as stated above it does amount to a very unorthodox view.
   Re. this nonsense about not publically discussing what Christian leaders say and practice for unbelievers will see us arguing:  Others have laid out a number of scriptures that would oppose your position.  How your use of the passage re. taking a brother to law applies here I have no clue(we are not talking about legal issues, but teaching/practice in the church).
   I will refer you to one passage in Galatians 2 where Paul rebuked Peter re. his behavior, "in front of them all".  It is very true that I have no specific knowledge re. the particulars of the leading bros. in SD, but then again I never rebuked them!  I simply mentioned that it seems that your instruction was lacking under their care.  I could be wrong, and you could have been sleeping instead of taking notes ;)(I can understand that  ;))  
   To solve this question I requested a change of topic; a fresh slate, as it were.  I asked you what you thought The Gospel was and what it means to a believer.  I guess you were trying to be funny with your answer, but I really think it would be helpful to you and all of us if we centered our discussion here.  The Gospel is the Declaration of Independence for the believer and to be ignorant of it is to be open to all kinds of deception.
  I am not designing a trap for you to fall into, nor will I ridicule your answers, but would sincerely like to extend my offer of assistance.  I am so happy that so many helped me after leaving the Assembly re. this issue.  I would also love to hear your testimony re. how you came to know Christ.  I will also share mine and we can all have a good laugh about the Hippie who lived in a cave in a box canyon who came to know Christ! :)
                                        God Bless,  Mark

woah, there buddy. I never EVER said that only Jesus was not a heretic and that all Christian teachers/churches are heretical. Major correction needed. I said that only Jesus was perfect and that no church had perfect teachings - everybody interprets the Bible and is bound to do it wrong - we're only men. I especially stand by my statement that no Christian leader is perfect.



Actually, you were backbiting then, talking about them when they are not here to defend themselves. This bb has become a court where people flippantly pronounce LB's as guilty (to various degrees even!). These church matters are not confined to a church, but rather in a public forum in front of unbelievers. I absolutely cannot see how you think that this does not go against the Word of God - in addition, I can't see how you think that is honoring to God in anyway.

I'd like to advise you to read Luke's lastest posts. They're awesome.

- Matt

Hi Matt!
  I read Luke's posts and I also read the e-mail that he sent me privately! :'( It was irksome, not awesome.)
   You did say several times that all Christian churches were heretical, but obviously you didn't mean to and now that is cleared up.  The question re. a church/leader is not are they perfect, but are they accountable.  In the Assembly there were no means for accountability of the leadership and that is why so much evil was able to flourish.
  You still have not taken up my Gospel question in earnest!  Don't you want to hear my testimony?! ;)
                     God Bless,  Mark

Why are you talking about Luke's private emails to you on this bb?! Publically?! That's terrible! If you have a problem with it, then email him directly. Also, I never said that every church was heretical - I said that none of them were perfect - none have perfect teachings, none have perfect leaders. Watch which words you put in my mouth, sir. Thanks!

- Matt

P.s. I really could write an essay on what the Bible means to me, but first let's hear your testimony. That would be interesting.

Hi Matt! :)
  I did not discuss the details of Luke's "irksome" e-mail publicaly and as such your strange privacy teaching has not been violated. I have written him, but like you, he has not responded!
  I'm beginning to believe that you may not understand what the Gospel is.  The entire Bible contains the Gospel, but there is a succinct definition.  I'll give you a clue, if you need one: I:Cor. 15.
  It is okay if you are not clear on it, most former members of the Assembly are confused as well.  
  I really would like to hear you first as it will possibly help you to think it through and come up with a simple and clear view.
  We do have perfect teaching re. the Word of God, in the greek sense of mature understanding.  We are commanded to "keep The Faith once delivered to the saints".  The Word of God is able to build us up and to give us discernment re. what is good/evil, or true/false.  No individual has perfect interpretation and that is why we are to "test" teachers/teaching and critically examine it.  To just let everything slide under the disclaimer, "ah, all churches are not perfect", is to invite deception and harm.  Subjection of teaching/practice to public scrutiny is encouraged in the NT as a demonstration to the world of our humility and honesty.
                          God Bless,  Mark

Why, Mark, you hold my views on the assembly in contempt. I used to trust you until I saw how you misinterpreted Luke's posts and how you twisted some of my words around (heretical instead of not perfect, etc.) Those were some excellent posts from Luke,  and sadly people just chucked the scripture he presented and preferred to continue thinking with emotion and basing their entire assembly experience on 2 assemblies. As for the privacy issue, yes, you publically criticized Luke's private email (what do you call "irksome"?). People here don't have access to the email (and they shouldn't because Luke sent it to you in private), so it leaves them to wonder all sorts of things.


 
Yeah, I was only kidding when I gave my answer about the Gospel being Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. I'm sorry that you didn't take it that way. Let's see your testimony.


Amen, that was my point. No individual has perfect interpretation. And that is also my point that the Word of God is perfect. I'm glad we agree on these points.


This is true, and GG always said that it was in the Bible - just look it up - it's in there. But when we start throwing around things like the leaders allowed GG to be arrogant. Well, that's like saying they allowed him to be a sinner. That's all he can be - he's a man.  We cannot expect the assembly to be perfect nor can we expect it the Leading brothers to be sinless. But we can't have blanket accusations about them all exploiting the saints. That was the problem I had with Tom Maddux's confession. If he had only talked himself, that would have been fine...but he accused all the LB's of exploiting the saints, and that was his error.


- Matt

 ;D ;D That happened to me once too!! That's so amazing you should bring that up. Except it happened to me in an orchestra pit with a group of Nicarauguans. We had to clean up the spaghetti, but I learned to speak Spanish because of it!!!

As to the comment reagrding how to cook halibut, I believe the best way is to blacken it slightly over a high flame. Add a little lemon powder before you blacken it though. It is just so delicious!! As for Lemurs, I believe they come from Madagascar--they appear to be part monkey and part something else---geez I've already forgotten, and I saw it on the Discovery channel just the other night.

Enjoyed your comments--gotta go.  -Joe

I think what is missing here is my two cents:

The Leading Brothers did not make George arrogant. George was arrogant long before the LB's came into it. In George's history before the assembly, he was arrogant. He also committed adultery. That is the one where you are married and fool around right? I get immorality and adultery mixed up. When David was a child he remembered his father bringing home his mistress to meet the family and then leave. So George's deception started years before the assembly. Now George starts his own church. He is going to pick men that bend to his will. He isn't going to chose strong men, he is going to chose young men who don't know any better. Young men he could lead.

The bible makes it very clear about shepherds. ALL shepherds MUST give an account. Unfortunately, in our midst, George who looked like a shepherd turned out to be a ravenous wolf. Devouring little sheep and their families. The LB's weren't much better. They ran the sheep over rocks and thorns, sheep were discouraged and beaten down. Some sheep were even bloody. Where was the care of the shepherd?

The LB's were the right hand of George. They were part of the system or they didn't last. I would hate to be a leading brother or sister at this time. All the times people wanted to leave and you encouraged them to stay. All the horror stories that are popping up in regards to how your flock was treated and you brushed it aside. Other than crying out to the Lord and apologizing for your actions. How can you be free?

Heide Johnson

From: Luke Robinson
Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 9:48 PM
To: vernecarty@msn.com
Subject: Thank you

Dear Verne,

We're brothers in Christ.  And I rejoice to see this repentance.  I know that one day, we will meet in heaven, and it's going to be a joyous occasion.  Here on earth, we might be of a disagreeable spirit, but we are both bought with the blood of Christ.  I thank you, again, and God speed you on your walk with Him.  God bless and keep you.  

I must admit that I was quite mad at you, at certain times, but I've prayed for you.  I will continue to do so.  

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson


Boy...He is r-e-a-l-l-y smooth isn't he...? He really had me going there for awhile   :)





Dear Verne,

Uh, just a few things.  What's this?

"The jawbone of an ass is just as dangerous a weapon today as in Sampson's time."
--- Richard Nixon

Are you really serious about not posting, or is this simply a sabbatical?  I'd hate to compliment you for apologizing when you plan on getting right back into the fray...

And mind you, I mean this in no bad way.  This is not me "taking Matt's side" or "knocking you out just cus' you're opinion is different".  This is me trusting you at your word, and you said you were leaving.  Are you serious about doing this?  If you want to go back, why don't you just come out and say so?  

I know that when I decided to leave, I deleted my account...to remove the temptation.

I honestly believe the best for you Verne, and I am glad that the Lord has worked in your life.  I just was hoping that you would stick to your word.  Well, God bless you, brother.  I am praying for you.

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson


Oh Ohhhh...! RED FLAG! RED FLAG!
Lord Luke the Lugubrious is Lamenting my Levity...! ;D




Dear Verne,
 
Hello Mr. Inspector!!!  I confess, I was the second gunman on the grassy knoll.  Hee hee!  How does it feel to be stumbling around in the dark?  Hmmm?  Well, it's not the first time for you, but hopefully the last.
 
Quote:
"It would seem that the cloying and noisome aroma of the assemblies has been with us...do you see how it still has the power to choke the life out of something vital?...fortunately some of us have not lost our sense of smell."
 
Well, if you didn't lose your sense of smell, then how come you didn't pick up the smell of your own devilish B.O.?  You know?  The stuff that makes you post without a clue but with a WHOLE lot of sinful blaming?  Surely it's not of the Lord, because he would not be the one suspecting such preposterous foolishness as you have been.
 
Quote:
"Those of you who thought Matt was the author of the e-mail Joe Sperling shared were not at all that far afield, his strident denial notwithstanding. You correctly identified the author's voice. If you surmise that the author of that e-mail was responsible for several posts to Matt Peeling's account, presumably with his complicity, you are indeed correct."
 
"It was I, Verne Carty, who made the arrest.  Using my powerful scent and my fabulous detective skills, as well as my AMAZING grasp of the English language, discovered that it was Colonel Mustard with the rope in the kitchen."  We're playing Clue, and Verne is in the lead.  WOO HOO!!!  Sorry, but you have no clue.  Joe knew who wrote him, so I think you can leave it up to Joe.  Apparently, Mr. Sperling knows how to keep his foot from getting inside his mouth as you have now accomplished.
 
Quote:
"These proteges of Geftakys learned well."
 
Verne, I want to ask you a question that I have been meaning to ask for a while.  How long were you actually in the Geftakys ministry?  5 years?  6 years?  7?  Something like that?  Surely you don't think that you have an idea of what you're talking about.  But then again, this is Verne Carty, "Intelligence Extraordinare."  This is no Joe Schmoe.  
 
Quote:
"Those of you on this forum aiding and abetting their deception, I hope you are fully satisfied."
 
Those of you on this forum who have no clue but wish they had one, please stand up.  Verne, this means you.  Please stop trying to play Dick Tracy.  You forgot your bullets when you left the house.
 
Quote:
"The two of you know who you are."
 
ME???  Are you talking about me?  Surely, you don't believe that I would do anything to foil your foolishness!
 
Quote:
"I pray fervently that the Great Shepherd would keep the likes of you two far from His blood-bought flock."
 
Hmmm...Funny thing.  I prayed that the Great Shepherd would turn you from your devilish divisiveness.  Didn't he take you behind the wood-shed?  Or was that just your wife?  I guess God can work in powerful ways.  It's amazing how you live in such hypocrisy and yet you believe that you're doing God a favor.  I guess the apple doesn't fall too far from the Geftakys tree...?  But then again, I am clear before God, and he knows I love the saints.  Maybe in your spare time(which you seem to have a whole lot of) you can reread my last two posts without a blindfold.  
It might do you a heaven of good.
 
Quote:
"The details are available from Brent. If you are sporting a fallacious sobriquet, you need not inquire. Watch the gates...!"
 
"YES!!!  Go to Brent!  He knows everything!"  Maybe next time you talk to Brent, you can maybe manage to get a clue out of him.  "Yes!  Watch the gates!!!  Don't let those Bible-thumpers with their logic in!!!  They'll only poison!!!"  I'm sorry Verne, but you are poisoned from the inside, and I will praise God the day this whole thing goes KABLOOIE and you will have to go back to just being lil', ol' Verne.  
 
Quote:
"p.s You two don't even think of PMing me...what have I to do with thee...?"
 
What about Him?  Seems that you have been ignoring Him, Verne.  I think it's time for another appointment behind the wood-shed...
 
A  Busted Brother in Christ,
 
Luke Robinson  

What on earth was I thinking...??!!

Any further questions...? If not, I rest my case...
Verne
p.s As is plain to all, he is not quite so sharp as previously surmised...he entirely missed the subtlety of my reference to his e-mail to Joe Sperling...Oh well...no great loss... ;D

"As a madman who casts firebrands, arrows and death, so is the man who deceives his neighbor and then says, Was this not in sport  ?"
Proverbs 26:18 & 19

What he did specifically, for those of you who are asking, is that he tried to sign on to the BB under an alias, which is O.K; he also tried to use my personal e-mail account, which is definitely not O.K. ...
Verne
p.s. Of course young Lord Luke Robinson is welcome to get on the BB and deny the allegation so we can prove him a  patent liar in addition to all his other already demonstrated fine character qualities..."Brother in Christ" my pink-eye...