AssemblyBoard

George is having Wednesday nite chapter summary in Riverside, CA. courtesy of Mike and Janine Almanzor.  A dozen or so people attend, the majority being ignorant of who the man is.  (10% of 10 people's salary=100% of one person's salary.  George is in the black again!)

Some observations:

1.) the ex-leaders in Riverside bear the brunt of the responsibility here.
2.) The ex-leaders in Fullerton (they sponsored Riverside) bear an equal share.
3.) Silence, cowardice and fear is the fuel that runs George's engine

I think I have done enough, as far as being point-man.  It's time for other people to step up and do something about this.  Any takers?  

some ideas:

Newspaper ads
Website updates, with names and addresses
Warning local Christian pastors.

This takes time and committment, and chances are no one will do anything.  After all, precious few did anything for 30 years, (Thanks Tom, Mark, Steve and Dave! You guys greatly helped me!) and the recent batch of ex-leaders are still under the Code of Silence.

My conscience is clear in this matter, I have done my part.  I will be happy to help and support, but I am not going to do this myself.  Yet, something needs to be done.

I hope that this finds its way to the ex-leaders, as they are responsible to warn others about George.  Don't you wish the unfaithfull PB guys had made more of an effort to warn us in the past? Do any of you want to make sure that the ex-leaders get this info?  Hint: they all work at AMR, and their emails are on the web....
I think most of them have phones too.  

So, are any of you going to do anything about this?  Oh, one other thing,  "giving it to The Lord, and coming before the Throne," is the first part of the solution.  However, the second half is to DO something about it!  Real Faith works.  Dead faith  wishes.

Please feel uncomfortable.

BTW, this would be a really good way for Tim Geftakys to demonstrate who he really is, not to mention the brave guys who excommunicated George.  Yes, I mean them!  Those guys, you know, Mark, Dan, Jim, Keith, Gary, remember them?

The righteous are as bold as lions, but the wicked flee when no man pursues.

Brent  
 
 

We can't follow Goerge around everywhere he goes and warn people about him with a bullhorn, although that would be the ideal solution.  However, the internet seems to provide a good alternative.  His future followers are bound to type his name into a search engine and  have a dose of reality.  Unfortunately, there will always be cults because there's a market for them: people willing to shave their heads off and hang out at street corners and sell flowers; and people willing to spend an inordinant amount of time at meetings to hear an egomaniac pontificate stuff from the Bible.  

Brent and others he mentioned are to be commended again for his work of love in the development of this excellent website and bb.  Thanks again for this site.

In the year of our lord thirteen fourteen, patriots of Scotland, starving and outnumbered, charged the fields of Bannockburn. They fought like warrior poets. They fought like Scotsmen. And won their freedom.

And I see, a whole army of my countrymen, here in defiance of tyranny. You've come to fight as free men, and free men you are. What will you do with that freedom? Will you fight?

***

Many now taste freedom in Christ, and God has made us free to be warrior poets. What will you do with that freedom? George is doing his thing again. Will you not only pray, but call OR write and do something that the wee sheep might be protected?



****

CALVARY CHAPEL REDLANDS PHONE:
For more Information Call (909) 793-8744

CALVARY CHAPEL RIVERSIDE
Calvary Chapel Of Riverside, (909) 687-6902,
6115 Arlington Ave, Riverside, CA 92504


***
LOCAL REDLAND CHURCHES

First Presbyterian Church
100 Cajon St
Redlands, CA

Highest Praise Apostolic Church
721 Nevada St Ste 408
Redlands, CA

Inland Olive Presbyterian
2 W Olive Ave
Redlands, CA

Loma Linda Indonesian Seventh Day Adventist
10827 California St
Redlands, CA

Loma Linda Japanese Co Seventh Day Adventist
721 Nevada St
Redlands, CA

Redlands Alliance Church
301 Cajon St
Redlands, CA

Redlands Apostolic Church
1205 Texas St
Redlands, CA

Redlands Christian Center
804 Church St
Redlands, CA

Redlands Church Rist
1000 Roosevelt Rd
Redlands, CA

Redlands United Church Rist
168 Bellevue Ave
Redlands, CA     

Defintion of Insanity:

He who does the same thing over and over again yet
expects a different result"----Benjamin Franklin.


George and his followers are insane.


--Joe

Hi folks,

I first met GG in December 1969 when he was just starting out to build his "house" the first time.

George was, as I recall, 41 years old at the time.  Betty was about 45 or 46.

Now they are about 75 and 80 years old.  

My prediction would be that whatever they build this time, it won't amount to very much.

But...as P.T. Barnum said, "There's a sucker born every minute".

Tom M.

Yes, quite true.  However, he knows his time is short, and there is no telling what mischief his sons could cause in his absence.  Almanzor was never the sharpest tool in the shed, but who knows what a little "training," from Bro. George could accomplish?

I think we make a mistake to underestimate the damage that George is still capable of.  What if he is invited to go to Nigeria or France?  (I guess France is where he belongs....serves them right!   ;) )

I wonder how many people wrote him off as insignificant the first time?  In one sense, he was insignificant.  However, in my life nothing could be further from the truth.

Brent

Quote from: Brent Tr0ckman on Rest-for-the-Weary BB at  02:22:27pm

[/b][/u]

I am going to try to get Aaron Russo and Jeremy Zimmerman on board.  They are the ex-leaders from Riverside, who are "outathere."

I think a weeklong add in the paper, stating only the facts is in order.  Something like this:



Local Bible Study given by controversial, disgraced leader.

George Geftakys is teaching a Bible Study at xxxx Shady Lane on Wednesday night at 7PM.  The house that is hosting Mr. Geftakys is the residence of Mike and Janine Almanzor, long time associates of George Geftakys, and part of the leadership structure of his recently failed ministry, known as "The Assembly."

Among other things, Mr. Geftakys was excommunicated by his former followers for improper sexual relationships with several female members of his church, which were ongoing for over twenty years.

Mr. Geftakys was at the helm of his small, secretive group for over thirty years, during which time the group never disclosed income or expenses, and had no financial statements of any kind.

George Geftakys has been labeled a cult leader by several authorities, including Dr. Ronald Enroth, author of the popular and widely read books,  Churches That Abuse,  and Recovering From Churches That Abuse.

In addition, there are several websites that contain vast amounts of information regarding George, the collapse of his ministry, and the various aspects of his doctrine that have been rejected by Christian leaders and teachers.

www.rickross.com  www.geftakysassembly.com

or, search the web under the name, GEFTAKYS

Paid for by former followers of George Geftakys, and Christians in this community.
 [/color]
 
Brent, if you take-out some ads on this GG meeting I'll chip in cash $$$...I'll match anyone up to $200!  If two match me I'll pop for $250. I'll also be willing to write up an account of what George Geftakys did to our family.

Ladies and gentlemen,  let's spill some ink!  Wayne and Pat Mathews!...I love you dear In-laws!   53 of us, 25 years...No, no, not again! Not again!

Who else will help to underwrite these ads?  Spiritual abusers should be identified to the community.

Also, if someone will call the churches and get the local pastors names and personal numbers - I'll call a bunch of them after the ads have run for a few days.  Who else will join me, guys?

I'm ready to get on a plane, and go visit George and some of his disciples out there...Do some door-to-door visits...Get my drift.

Come-on, you California people!  These folks are waundering off to slaughter - Won't you hold them back?!  I want no blood on my hands!

Okay, okay, in my last post I said I wouldn't post anymore.  So I changed my mind already!

I am with you in wanting to take out a newspaper ad.  If you give me a contact person, I will send some $$.

But to me, those Geftakys assemblies which are being dishonest yet are trying to continue are just as dangerous as George - especially the ones which still have 'training homes' and are trying to recruit young people into their group.  Shall we also take out a local ad in the paper regarding the assembly in Placentia?

mithrandir

p.s., William Wallace, please allow me to introduce myself.  I know a very small bit about Scottish history.  Have you read Tolkien? ;)

Wee bit of a Tolkien fan  - laddy. :P

"All that’s necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing." EDWARD BURKE

***

The lads here will not left left behind in the fray: count me in to pitch in for an ad. If EVERY person who posts, gives A CALL or WRITES in the next TWO weeks the fire will burn brightly against the long shadow of Mr. Geftakys.

How long will a man hide in the shadows?  

***

Brent did the 6 week challenge: TAKE THE TWO WEEK CHALLENGE

Two weeks of writing and calling...people.

TWO WEEKS.




More addresses with phone numbers.


Hope Protestant Reformed Church
Pastor Arie den Hartog
1307 E. Brockton Avenue, Redlands, CA 92374

Pastor Richard A. Hites
First Lutheran Church of Redlands
1207 West Cypress Avenue
Redlands, CA 92373
(909)793-2267
(909)793-8637
pastorhites@firstlutheranredlands.org

The River Christian Reformed Church
Senior Pastor - Tim Spykstra
Youth Pastor - Ryan Pelton  
459 E. Highland Ave.
Redlands, CA 92373
Voice: (909) 798-2221
Fax: (909) 798-4133

Rev. Craig  S. Turley (Runs a prayer ministry)
(909) 793-8077
revcturley@cybertime.net
Redlands CA 92373


AREA SCHOOLS
University of Redlands
Post Office Box 3080
1200 East Colton Ave.
Redlands, CA 92373-0999
phone: (909)793-2121
fax: (909)793-2029
www.redlands.edu


***
SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA RETIRED PASTORS

Rex Britt 124 Dolores Ct. Redlands, A 92374 (909) 389-1136 brittrandj@cs.com  

Dan---

Your post is interesting. I recall circa 1974-1975 when
I first attended the Assembly that a group of people were outside holding signs which read "Beware Shepherd George!!" I asked what the commotion was and was told that they were "disgruntled ex-members".

I accepted that and continued to attend. I'm not sure what good holding up signs will do, maybe it will help. But it amazes me how history repeats itself.

--Joe

Those of you with geographical proximity, this add should be posted immediately. Whoever takes charge of this contact me for my contribution. I will pay for the add for one full week. Dan's idea of silently standing outside the residence at the time of the study with a sign of the website is brilliant - those people in 1974 were faithful but probably grew weary. We have far more weapons today - Let's get busy...!
Verne
p.s. If you are not daily in the  prayer closet about this, I recommend you stay on the sidelines until you are...it's that serious...

Joe,

If you are talking about the guys in front of the Assistance League in Fullerton, they weren't ex-members at all.

They were a little cult led by a guy we nicknamed "Bobby Bible".  George called the cops on them when they tried to disrupt one of his eternal harrangues with questions.  They were trying to get even.

No one paid them any attention because we all knew they were kooks.  (like we weren't?)

God bless,

Tom M.

I would think that Riverside is the key place to hit, as that is where the Bible study is located.  UC Riverside is also there.  The campuses will be starting the fall term soon--how about getting some information to the Dean of Students, Campus Crusade, Intervarsity, and post an announcement in the campus newspapers.  Maybe someone can investigate if there is a book table at UCR, CSUF, FFC, or Riverside Community College.  

Wow! This is one time that I wish I lived in California. I'd be there in a heartbeat with a very large sign!!!!

Sounds like GG might have a bit of a fight on his hands if those of us that are ex-assembly get involved.  Keep me notified at the forefront if any assistance is needed - I'd jump at the chance to make California a bit more "clean" since my wife and I have considered moving there.

Tom---

Thanks. I wasn't aware of the group with the signs being a little "cult" themselves. I remember being told to "just ignore them" and was told that some of them had come to a few meetings and had something against George.  I had only been in the Assembly for a short time. Thanks for clearing that up.

--Joe

Joe,'

You might remember these guys from Van Nuys Blvd.  Remember that there was a car that would drive up and down the street that was painted yellow on the upper half, and had red flames on the bottom?
It said something like "heaven" on top and "hell" on the lower half.
They would drive along yelling, "God", or "Jesus", or "Bible" out the window at the kids along the street.  

Effective evangelism what?

They used to come to Hillcrest Park in Fullerton.  That's where we first met them.  They were led by "Bobby Bible" who was a little guy with a beard.  He was supported by a really big guy about 6'5''.
All told there seemed to be about 8 or 10 of them.

They rode around in a couple of cars, painted as described, but they pulled a trailer so "Bobby" could take out his Harley and ride it when the whim took him.

I wonder what ever became of them.

I suspect that he went the way GG is headed.

Tom M.

Tom----

Yeah---I remember that car. Just for the heck of it I went
to www.google.com and put bobby bible in the search engine and an article came up about him going to Israel in 1999 to await the imminent return of Jesus. He said the Lord was returning "partially" in December of 1999. Like you said, he went the way of George alright.

take care,  Joe

The emails have been going out people. I've been emailing and writing the local Redlands pastors and handing out my phone number for open discussion regarding this serious matter.

How is everyone else doing?

***

In the meantime, while you ACT, please remember to PRAY.

This CANNOT go on any longer. I'm done seeing sincere brothers and sisters in Christ fleeced by this man. Pray for the Lord to reveal himself as the Avenging Judge that Mr. Geftakys will wake up from his delusions and sin. May visions prick Mr. Geftaky's conscious for the crimes he has committed.

***

God said the gates of Hades shall not prevail!

There is still shadow that cast itself over the lands, but the warrior poets rumble with a restlessness. Light and love has pierced our hearts and we shall not go out into the night quietly.

In the NIGHT we will raise our blazing torches higher, he shall see it upon the hills! We shall bathe the land with light because there's the fight of faith and good.

Our voices will grow louder to heaven in prayer with a booming declaration, ENOUGH.

God will ACT and we shall wonder at His wondrous works. PRAY PRAY PRAY!

Who is going to do the newspaper add?

Also, before the add goes up, 2 people need to  eyewitness people going into the house, with George, and have a meeting.  The address needs to be correct, and the facts need to be straight.

Aaron Russo and Jeremy Zimmerman are the former LB's from Riverside, and they would be the logical choice to get the facts.  I have emailed AAron, and have not heard back.  

Does anyone know Jeremy well?

It only takes 2 or 3 people to put a stop to this.  Where are all the "repentant" leaders?  

Brent

It looks like the newspaper ad and sending letters to all the Christ-honoring churches is the way to go.  

Hi Everyone!
  Wow!  I get on the BB after a week's absence and discover great interest in a community (Redlands) that I just drove through! :o
   I think with some searching I could come up with the address of Mike Almanzor, as I am in contact with an ex- WLA Assemblyite who probably has it.  
   Though I was moved by the call to arms against "Longshanks" (My Scottish heritage probably has something to do with it ;)) the pen will be mightier than the sword in this case I believe.
   Since GG's past methods have been to use College campuses; possibly contacting the Local Campus Crusade for Christ rep. along with any other Christian outreach on Cal St. Riverside might be a good idea.
   The person who said they were in contact with the ex- Riverside folks should do so immediately as they would have the best info. re. GG's activities.  We need some accurate intelligence first if we are to find GG's 'weapons-of mass-deception' ;) and put him out of business.
  While make a delivery to a Christian camp (run by the Plymouth Brethren) I spoke with, and warned, the brother who ran the camp re. GG.  This man is an Elder in the Riverside PB Assembly.  He referred me to a brother with connections to Nigeria who visits many PB Assemblies here and abroad.  He told me that P.B's in Nigeria know about GG and that he is a false teacher.  They also now know all the latest revelations re. GG's character.
  The above paragraph encourages me greatly that God is directing events and though we may think sometimes that evil men like GG escape God's watchful eye we need to believe otherwise!  I agree that passivity is the wrong course for good men/women to take, as it only encourages the evil to be bolder, but we should proceed with some intelligent marshalling of our resources. (Besides, I refuse to paint myself blue and wear a kilt ;))
           God bless those who enthusiastically care! Mark C.

Mark:

The campus out in Riverside is UC Riverside.

Matt Sciaini

Mark:

Mike Almanzor's address is--

728 Hacienda Drive
Riverside, CA 92507

Matt Sciaini

I hope everyone is still taking this seriously.  George has seriously devastated many lives.  Shall we let it continue?  Remember there are women and children in Riverside.  And George seems to still have a hunger for young women.  

Let me tell you about Mike Almanzor: he preaches JUST like George.  Same photographic memory, grasp of the "heavenly vision", and same arrogant pride and violent, bullying temper.  Shall we let it all begin again with George's new prodige' (sp?).

I recommend a movie called "Enough".  It may be a cheesy flick, but it depicts perfectly what kind of men we are dealing with here.  

What is the rest for the weary BB?

To any that are interested in doing advertising:

According to what I've been able to glean  ::) through the grapevine, George is supposedly actually HAVING a study in Redlands.  I'm not positive if he is still having a study in the Almanzor's home in Riverside or not.  Before advertising anything, make sure you have the facts straight.  

Matt Sciaini

Matt

Since you live down there, how about if you verify the facts?  It is important that people actually do something about this.  I have done my part, and don't feel like driving 300 miles.  How about those of you who live within 50 miles checking it out?

Let me just say that nothing helps so much as doing something.  Fighting back, winning battles, putting cult-leaders out of business...it does wonders for the healing process.  Paul told Timothy to "fight the good fight."  I believe this is what he was talking about.  

The reason George was able to do what he did, is because we were all such passive weenies.  Anyone willing to graduate and act like a man out there?

Brent

Folks, I suggest someone start organizing something offline.  Someone needs to organize "a purse" for the advertising contributions $$$, create an email list - I'm ready to send a check.  Someone needs to write the copy and place the ads...I'll help here, too. Get the facts and lets work offline on what we will do and when we will do it.  

Think about it - The state of California (every state in the union!) is more diligent in protecting the public from pedophiles and convicted perverts and in warning unwary people about emotional and physical dangers than we Christians are in "warning our neighbor" about a horrible predatory wolf such as a George Geftakys. No wonder we believers are reviled...We believers should demonstrate to all - to believers and unbelievers - that unrepentant spiritual abusers will experience consequences for their injurious, abusive, blasphemous lives.

Part of all of us "getting right" on our past is all of us individually and corporately - doing right! - with our present.


He/they should be publicly exposed - So that all will fear.

Ecclesiastes 3:8 - "There is a time to love and a time to hate."  

George is an extremely dangerous spiritual bully - He has stumbled multitudinous people - both near and abroad.  He robbed my family of three decades of peace...Never again - not one person more, not for one minute. I hate it when a bully gets away with hurting the innocent - So should you.  We need to go after George, people...Go after him for his good, for the good of our world and for the good of ourselves.  He needs a spanking...Our witness is at stake.

Indeed, like Cain he needs to marked - publicly and permanently exposed for what he is - A danger.

Chuck Vanasse
chuck@vanant.com

I too had expected some movememt by now from those of you with proximity. I am in the Midwest and would be hard pressed to take this kind of initiative. Is there anyone willing to take a stand?
Verne

The reason I did the website, put in the time, spent the money, wrote the articles, etc.  is because I knew it had to be done, and that no one else would do it. I knew that I would have absolutely zero support, and plenty of opposition; Geftakysservants---I used to be one---are passive, fearful people, and usually won't do anything unless ordered to.

Those of you out there who want to do something about this, yes, I mean you...please understand that nobody is going to do this for you.  You have to take action, make decisions, generally act like people with convictions.  

I am not going to do this.  It wouldn't be fair to you.  Sure, I could do all of this; I've already proven that.  However, that is not the point in all of this.  The point is to take responsibility for our (your) part in George's dark empire.  If I do all the work, it may or may not be effective, but I do know one thing.  It will not help any of George's past victims.  Those of you who have been injured by him and his servants need to realize that you are not weak, that you are whole in Christ, and that you bear responsibility for what has happened to you, and the part you played in the abuse of others.  You were NOT innocent bystanders!  Far from it.  We were passive, cowardly bystanders, or worse yet, we were perpetrators!

You won't believe the blessing that will come in your lives if you step out on faith and act like a whole person.  You don't even have to be brave, taking out a newpaper ad is not like storming the beach at Normandy!  However, to sit by and say things like, "We should do something," and then not do anything, is only going to give these people time to regroup.  Don't let George hold you in contempt!  

He thinks the women he abused are too weak to do anything about it---he holds them in contempt.  (I hope he isn't right about this)

He knows the former leaders don't have the testicles to do anything about the financial abuse they know about.  He rightfully holds them in contempt!  They are too busy travelling around the country performing weddings for their old Geftakysservant friends.

George hopes that his former supporters are too weak and cowardly as well.  Make no mistake about it, George is afraid.  He knows that his freedom hangs by a thread.  It would only take one or two brave people to act on what they know, and George would be able to start a new prison ministry.

In the meantime, no one wants to take out an ad in the local paper to warn people about George's new efforts.

Where are the studies?  Who is coming to them?  Who is going to suck it up and act like a man?  

Perhaps the women can act more like men than the ex-assembly men???

Prove me wrong people.  

Brent

It's true Brent.  There are no real men.  Prove me if I'm wrong.  Which is why the women are all the more victimized.  Think of poor Janine Almanzor and her family!  It needs to be the former leaders and men who confront and stop George.  Not the women who have already lost everything in their confession of George's gross immorality.  They are just trying to pick up the pieces of their devastated lives.  Will anyone speak up for their protection or for the protection of future victims?

Like you said Brent, we no longer need to fear these men, now that we are in the light.  Their darkness is easily perceived and crushed.  I am writing to Janine Almanzor and others.  

Will anyone else act?

Yes, I plan to write letters. Poor Janine.  :'(

Dear Faith and Pat:

I am honored to stand with you.  I am doing quite a bit here as well, but I must keep quiet about it for now.  I am so glad that there are some women who have courage, convictions and the guts to act on them.

All we need is one or two young boys, who have the courage to at least gainsay the teacher, or tell their friend who is stealing that they shouldn't do that.  We don't need William Wallaces for this fight.  Beaver Cleavers would do.  Too bad the Geftakysservant men are such eunuchs.

I am actually very sad right now, considering all of this.  May God raise up a Deborah or two!  

Brent----not idle, but very active.  However, I will NOT go to Riverside and do the leg work for this.  May God seperate the sheep and the goats!

I thank God for those of you that have made a difference:

Steve and Margaret, Tom, Mark, Kirk, Pat and others.

Brent

My question is this...

What are the objectives?  Is the only objective to warn people about George via newspaper ads and email to other churches?  I think that is way to soft and would only do good for a limited time.  In order to stop this monster, I think he needs to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.  For crying out loud, this guy and his sons have illegally mishandled and misappopriated funds for years now and more than likely have cheated horifically on their taxes.  

The objectives are whatever you want them to be.  Newspaper advertisement is a great way to warn potential converts.

Many of us fantasize about what should be done, how many of us do something about it?


Have you done anything about this?  Do you have records of what you gave to the ministry?  Have you made any phone calls?  If the answer is yes, please don't go into detail on the BB.  If the answer is no, then I think you might have an objective.

Brent

I agree with Brent that each one should do what they are able to do to stop GG and his system. I am unable to do anything about Riverside (being 3000+ miles away and not having met any of those still meeting with GG there). I echo Chuck Miller's (or is it Vanasse) sentiment, 'never again' will this man influence others and I just be a bystander.

My personal experience is that if you say anything of why you have left, you are going to be labelled as being divisive and be excluded anyway, so why not live up to that reputation. I have become the 'troubler' of the local gathering here, but I am willing to take the pressure, and to put on the pressure. Ever heard of peer pressure? "You're the peer, so put on the pressure!" -- not my original, but I learned it well.

Lord bless,
Marcia

Yes!  Add another sister to the rank of those doing something tangible.  Speaking out loud is a huge thing, because people know who you are, and they will shun you.  How much easier to do stuff like ads, private letters to pastors, etc.

I am glad there are some "manly" sisters around who are willing to stand for what they believe!   It would seem that Betty's instruction to the men was far more effective than whoever it was that taught the women!

Brent

When you say, "this guy and his sons have illegally mishandled and misappropriated funds for years now".

I am sure that they have immorally mishandled funds.  However, I am not aware of any actual lawbreaking.  
If I give you money with no up front agreement about how it is to be used, you haven't broken any laws if you spend it on ice cream.

Years ago I knew a sister who was a licensed tax preparer.  She did GG's income tax, and I think she did some other worker's too.
She told  me that they filed tax returns, claiming their income was from gifts.

Now that isn't really technically correct...however, the cash contributions in the box could definitely be called "gifts" to the ministry.  So at best you can say that this is a grey area.

So, unless you know more than I do, I think this is a dead end.

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

Not necesssarily Tom..it all depends on what George and Betty reported. There are many, many brethren who have a pretty good idea of what the assembly in Fullerton and the various gatherings around the country contributed yearly. The point is that it all went to George's house. There is a mountain of legally actionable avenues to pursue with regard to his malfeasance...just let the IRS get a whiff...
Verne

I am quite sure that if people would have known that the money they gave was being spent so George and his sons could live over their heads, or was going to his sons car part collection, or was going to his enhance David's porn collection, they probably would not have given as freely or if at all.  The announcement was made once a week that there was a box in the back part of the room, blah, blah, blah, blah that was going to the needs of the work...If money is being given for one thing and is being used for something completely different, then I have to believe that is mishandling of funds.

Did George ever list his ministry as  a non profit organization?  Was the proper legal/paper work ever done for this to be accomplished?  

Dear Uh Oh,

You wrote,

"I am quite sure that if people would have known that the money they gave was being spent so George and his sons could live over their heads, or was going to his sons car part collection, or was going to his enhance David's porn collection, they probably would not have given as freely or if at all.  The announcement was made once a week that there was a box in the back part of the room, blah, blah, blah, blah that was going to the needs of the work...If money is being given for one thing and is being used for something completely different, then I have to believe that is mishandling of funds.

Did George ever list his ministry as  a non profit organization?  Was the proper legal/paper work ever done for this to be accomplished?"

In answer to your question about  non-profit status, GG had two corportations.  One for profit, which ran the "printing ministry", and another non-profit one for the school and, I suspect, other things.

As to your statement about, "If people would have known...".

All they had to do was look.

 I must confess that I wasn't thinking about this much in the early years of my involvement.  But by the late '70s I could see that GG was living pretty high on the hog while I was suffering some financial stress and giving sacrificially.  

David Geftakys, as far as I know, has never had a job since early adulthood.  He was able to buy a house.  How could he do that?

Only if some VERY CONSIDERABLE amounts of money were coming from somewhere.

So...I quit giving them money.

The real problem was that people weren't willing to follow the evidence.

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

Funny..the last few months I was there I sent all my regular giving to "Thru The Bible Radio"...as you said Tom, entirely a mattter of conscience...
Verne

AN UPDATE

Bravo to Clarence for what he's doing. I know there are many in contact with me who are also doing something to let their concerns made known about George's movements in the Southern California area.

I wrote my emails, letters, and phone calls. BUT the big thing: PRAY.

It seems that George doesn't have much time remaining in his life, given his age, to build much of an organization all over again.  His days are numbered.  Also, with the information on him available on the internet, and the likelihood that his target audience may read that information, it seems that he doens't pose much of a threat for building much of a cult following as before.  

His adult children, with their reputations blown away on the internet, also don't seem to pose much of a threat.  They'll probably have the money that their daddy stole from his unwitting followers and will probably live off it like like a pair of underdeveloped, unsoaring eagles that were and continue to be too cowardly to leave the nest and live on their own.

So when George is gone, hopefully he will have repented.  In the meantime, there doesn't seem to be much to be concerned about.  On the other hand, the coffee enemas and spinach-mold milkshakes might give him another 20 years, so maybe he'll build another assembly that's bigger than before.  

I frequently look at this thread to see if anyone has any news on George Tim or David. Not much has been said about their recent exploits. I was hoping that this thread would be devoted to keeping tabs on them.
Maybe someone could start one just fro info on that triumvirate. Kind of like a bird watchers hotline where you look to see the last place the slap happy rappidappy was spotted . Place , time , what was he doing, that kind of stuff.   steve harris

Hi Steve,

I think this thread makes it pretty clear what George is up to.

Tim, as of a couple months ago, was selling RV's in Orange County.

David is working/studying at the Maritime Academy in San Francisco.

Several of the Ex-LB's from Assemblies that are still meeting, are "itinerate" preachers to the other Assemblies, Tim is one of these.  I predict that they will try to rebuild the accursed system.

Of course, none of this really matters much, because very few, if any people will do anything about it.

Brent

     Brent, do you mean by your last statement that not many people will follow them, not many will resist them, or both?

al

I mean that not many people will resist them.  Some will, and some have.  Most people will talk about it, maybe call someone.  Very few will do more than that.

Also, you are right, not many people will follow them.  That is a good thing.  George is done, but there are still a few people out there who could do some mischief in a small, mean way.

Brent

Ex-assemblyites who remain 'assembly' sympathetic are now infecting other healthy churches with their 'poisonous stew'.  I honestly am concerned for those gatherings.

Marcia

This scares me: rebuilding by GG.  I'll do what I can.  I'm nearly ready to send the novel off (my study of total zero) and his trashy organization features prominently though it is not all the novel is about.  Apathy is one thing, but what Marcia quoted about people having their brains shut off - that was me and that remains my main concern.  I have had some discussions with those who left and part of them remains 'in'.  Though they have their doubts about G, his words yet circulate in their brains, his ideas, his consciousness.  That's what scares me most.  What can we do?
delila

There isn't any formula for sucess in these things, what is important is that we conduct ourselves with a clear conscience, which almost always means courage.

I haven't met anyone, not one person, who left an Assembly before the website, who doesn't have eerily similiar stories of abuse and manipulation.

The overwhelming majority of the people who left when George and David were exposed a little more than a year ago also have the same, consistent stories.

The people that never left, and cling to the Assembly,  (even if theirs closed its doors) are the only people who don't "get it."  They remain decieved.

We can only have limited sucess with the latter group.  Afterall, if finding out that their supreme leader was a total fraud, and that their under-leaders were inept cowards, or worse didn't wake them up, they are going to have to wait for something stronger.

Where we can do something is to warn others who might come into contact with the group.  Tell the Campus Crusade groups at the colleges where the Assembly still has outreaches.  Warn them, give them printed literature, and tell them about the website.  

Another thing that can be done is to buy up our opportunities to talk to people still "in."  Tell your story,  confront your abusers,  plead for repentance and reconciliation.  There are so many people who are under the mistaken impression that they can just forget about this and "move on."  They can't,  guaranteed.

What we can do is get honest, courageous, and vocal, in varying degrees.  Then, we can heal, and we just might be able to help someone else get free.  

Imagine where you would be today if no one ever spoke up about the truth.

Brent

     I did.  I did my best to put the assembly and its teachings behind me, and I moved on...  To be precise, I virtually moved on a tread mill.  I moved, but I went nowhere.  For over 20 years.  And despite my best efforts, the taint of assembly teaching haunted me like a familiar spirit.

     It was one year ago today that I came onboard this bulletin board and my recovery began.  It has been painful and wonderful, and while my indebtedness is entirely to the Lord Jesus Christ, I rejoice to declare that His vessel of my deliverance was the ministry of Brent Tr0ckman and those who joined with him to speak the Truth of God and shine His Light into the darkness of my heart and soul.

     I remember so clearly the early days in Fullerton, when all the children in the assembly were very young and the sisters taught them the song about how the wise man built his house upon the Rock and the foolish man built his house upon the sand.  We have seen that song, and the scripture upon which it is based, fulfilled.  For when the winds came and the waves beat upon it, the house that George built fell, and great was the fall of it.  Only that which was built upon Christ stands fast.

     All praise to Him Who reigns above in majesty supreme...

al Hartman

Sobering. As tragic as the stories of physical and psychological abuse ocurring in the assemblies are, it has always been my contention that the most serious damage done to the victims of George Geftakys is spiritual. Al makes a critical point in that even with awakening consciousness of what was done to our souls by this herald of hell, (don't talk to me about temperance when it comes to wicked men like George Geftakys...please!!) the recovery and restoration is painful and protracted, probably life-long. God is able nonetheless.
The people refusing to understand this and respond accordingly are in far more serious trouble than they can imagine; may God have mercy on them...



I am reminded of the sage observation that all that is needed for evil to flourish in this world is for good men (and women) to do nothing. This is the great indictment of the Geftakys era. People did nothing! That is not an option.
Men and women who love Christ must pray.
They must speak.
They must act.
It's evident that his iniquity is not  yet full. Prayer must be offered to God that he would do a quick work, and cut it short in righteousness.
There are many more like George Geftakys abroad. We are told that evil men and seducers will wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.(2 Timothy 3:13).
We may as well get  used to it.


It may be that some have knowingly made their choice. In veiw of what has been uncovered about the nature of this man and his so called minstry, there is more going on here at this stage than mere deception in my view.


 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.   For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
John 3:19-21
Verne

We assume things:
1) life is fair.  
2) our justice system works (sigh)
3) people really want to know the truth
4) people can not train their consciences to believe a lie - permanently

That being said, despite the fact that we'd all like things to be 'made right' - it may never be.  How many people have logged on to say: "Gee, thanks for this website, I was thinking of going to a GG bible study... but now I won't."

Who has forgotten what it's like to be bullied and know that, no matter how your stomach hurts, you're going to do exactly what 'God's servant' wants you to?
delila

Actually, over two dozen people have made comments like,  "I was thinking about joining up, until I read the website."

Many people left as a result of reading the info on RickRoss, before this website was conceived of.  In addition, lots of parent have contacted me for info, advice, and to thank me for "giving them their children back."

Professors at seminaries have contacted me, as have authors, and people who work in specific branches of the United States Government.  The latter group have their own version of "Code of Silence."

The effect that the website has had on people is incredible.  Even now, not a week goes by without some interesting phone calls or email.

The problem is that the vast majority of people remain passive.   They might get help from what others have done, which is awesome!  However,  most people are content to help themselves, but don't have the courage to act on their own responsibility.

Here is a prime example:

Rachel acted.  Was it hard?  Absolutely.  Did it make a difference?  ALL THE DIFFERENCE!

The women who were George's victims:

Told a few people, have kept quiet ever since.  Did it make a difference?  Yes, it got George excommunicated, which is amazing.  However, their silence has made it possible for the groups still meeting to call their stories, "All lies," even as they did Rachel's and Judy's for all those years.

I won't say anything further, and won't reveal here who these women are, but if they were to do something, even in writing,  I promise that it would start another tidal wave.  BTW,  these women were  influential, prominent people in "The Work." In spite of the fact that they were horribly victimized, they have a duty to speak out.  This is my opinion.  I can't and won't speak for them.

In my understanding, people who carry about secrets of this sort, while the abuser goes free, never really heal.  Those who courageously confront and vanquish their abusers fare far better.  

George lost his precious ministry, now he needs to be held accountable for what he did.  Yes, I am still praying for his repentance.

Brent

After leaving the Annandale assembly some of us listened to part of a tape series that included a message called Blessed are Those that Mourn, from Matthew 5.  Blessed are those that mourn for they shall be comforted.  Mourn was an action word.  The gist of the message was blessed are those who take the painful matter/issue/sin/experience or whatever, out and look at it, admit it, face it, think it through.  They are the ones that find comfort.
If you cover it up, deny it, gloss over it, run away from it ...no comfort.  Something to think about.

BW

Does anyone have any information about the seminar held recently in S. California? Maybe in the West LA area?

Here is a prime example:

Rachel acted.  Was it hard?  Absolutely.  Did it make a difference?  ALL THE DIFFERENCE!

The women who were George's victims:

Told a few people, have kept quiet ever since.  Did it make a difference?  Yes, it got George excommunicated, which is amazing.  However, their silence has made it possible for the groups still meeting to call their stories, "All lies," even as they did Rachel's and Judy's for all those years.

I won't say anything further, and won't reveal here who these women are, but if they were to do something, even in writing,  I promise that it would start another tidal wave.  BTW,  these women were  influential, prominent people in "The Work." In spite of the fact that they were horribly victimized, they have a duty to speak out.  This is my opinion.  I can't and won't speak for them.

In my understanding, people who carry about secrets of this sort, while the abuser goes free, never really heal.  Those who courageously confront and vanquish their abusers fare far better.  

---------
Brent and all:
I'm afraid I don't agree.  There is a difference between spousal physical abuse and sexual abuse in a clergy situation.  The general public is far more sympathetic of a wife being hit by her husband than they are of a woman being abused by an authority figure.  After all, she probably did something to precipitate it.  Or at least she could have said "no"!

If  you do some research on places like advocateweb.org you will find some very disturbing information.  Or better yet, read Dee Miller's website at takecourage.com.  The difference is, that it is a relationship between two adults, therefore it must be "consensual".  Women (and men) in the church have been battling this and are making very little headway.

You are also dealing with  women having to expose their own sexual immorality to the general public.  They are dealing with their own issues of "how could I have allowed this to happen?"  Along with issues of personal guilt and responsibility.  Does the general public embrace them and comfort them?  No they shun them out of embarassment and shame.  So who cares about the general public.  Right?  Well, hat about their families and friends and neighbors?  Most women who have gone to battle over this issue have had to move to new localities and start their lives over because of the social stigma placed on them.  How many friends can sympathize with these issues?  How can they even face their friends and associates after revealing these things?  Even pastors in new churches are afraid of them!  Do they want their families to know?  

Now on top of this, of course, our society is still extremely chauvanistic and we give much more weight to the testimony of someone who is an authority.  So we cannot assume the women will be believed.  Especially against someone who has been a pathological liar for decades.  If you read these sites you will hear countless stories of women who went up against preachers of every denomination and lost everything.  Funny how every other similar profession has laws about sexual impropriety (counsellors, doctors, teachers).  Actually a few states have laws on the books regarding pastors too.  California is not one of them.

So are their hands tied?  Should they do something?  It is a very sad day when victimized women have to speak for themselves.  The question is.  Where are the men who are angry because women could be abused like this?  Where are the men who could do something that would make a difference?  So few were outraged.  Unfortunately most have become just what George made them to be: passive and unable to act like a man would.  Men like Mark Miller, Rod Zach, Roger Grant who know the details could have fought for these women.  They could have personally warned every individual in every assembly where George is still welcome.  Have they warned Janine Almanzor, Agnes McAllister, all the women in San Francisco who are at risk of being similarly abused?  No they have put their heads in the sand and gone on protecting their own narrow lives.  Have they even encouraged counselling or help for these women?  Have they even entered into dialogue with them?  It is a very familiar story from Southern Baptists to the Catholic church.

Don't blame George's victims for not doing more.  They did not keep silent.  They did what they could in less public ways.  Writing on a website would not be healing to them.  There are enough people who know the story.  Let them rebuild their lives in peace.   Pray to God that they will heal as they seek to go on with their lives

     Ironically, I first heard this quote from George, and from him again many times thereafter.  The greater irony is that the reason people did nothing, in the sense that Verne reflects, is that George saw to it that everybody was kept too busy doing something subtly designed to occupy us in our own spiritual self-preservation.  If we ever had the time to reflect on things as they really were, we usually fell asleep from sheer exhaustion.  (No excuse, it's just how things were...)





     Struggling Along makes a solid case for the possible reason behind the silence of the women Brent discusses.  Their situations certainly do differ from those of Rachel and Judy.  And there most assuredly is a biased social standard regarding sexual immorality and its victims.
     My first thought upon reading Brent's entreaty to these women was, Perhaps they feel themselves to be complicit in the wrongdoing, whether or not they were.  Perhaps they are too ashamed to speak out further.  This would be a product of society's lopsided scales of justice.

     A woman was brought before Jesus, accused of adultery, "caught in the very act."  How odd, but how telling, that she was brought alone...  She could hardly have been acting alone, and yet no man was being blamed.  Her accusers were apparently all men.  Could it be that they somehow identified with their brother?  The horrors he must have suffered at the guiles of that temptress!  In the same situation, they also might have succumbed to her irresistable spell!  For them (and therefore for the man) it would have been a weakness; for her it was sin!!!
     Jesus would have none of it, but with a minimum of words He shamed the men into making a full retreat, while He drew in the dust.  Looking up, He asked the woman "Where are your accusers?" and she told Him they had all gone away.  "Neither do I condemn you," said Jesus, "Go and sin no more."

     When Jesus said "Go," it was clearly a dismissal to do whatever the hearer wished.  But many of those who Jesus healed and forgave chose to follow Him.  He was surrounded by sinners, so grateful for His mercy, for His touch, the healing of their souls as well as their bodies, that they would not return to their former lives and ways.

     It would be a merciful help to those women abused by George if some of the former LBs we know would speak up on their behalf.  But some of those men may have followed in their supreme leader's footsteps, committing the same kinds of sins, of which they are now too ashamed to confess.  Or they may have resisted the temptation, but been envious of the great man's liberties, which would be as great a sin in their hearts.  I make no accusations, but I know men are like that at their basest.
     During my tenure I had such opportunity and by God's grace I resisted the temptation.  But I confess to my shame that had I known what was being practiced at the highest echelon, I might have justified my own self-indulgence.  I'll never know, but the possibilty of such destruction terribly humbles me and the reality of God's deliverance fills me with gratitude.

     Why would I post such a thing?  I want those women to know that nothing is too hard for the Lord.  Those thieves and adulterers who followed Jesus had it hard!  The community at large despised them.  They suffered the abuse of others because something far greater had captured their hearts and minds:  They had met the Lord!  I publicly confess my own shame to tell you that you are not alone, and that the tender mercies of Christ are worth everything.  
     I don't know what you should do, except to ask the Lord what you should do.  And don't be afraid of the answer.  Come unto Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.  Take my yoke upon you and learn of Me: for I am meek and lowly in heart, and you shall find rest unto your souls.  For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.
     Lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.

al Hartman

I completely agree. Judging by George Geftakys' lack of public shame regarding his vile behaviour, doubtless he would not hesitate to stoop to public villification of these were they to dare to speak out. The added pain would be unimaginable and I fully understand their reticence.
It is so interesting that Peter seems to suggest that it was gross immorality that rsulted in God's summary judgement on angelic beings. Does anybody really doubt that this guy is a Biblical type and intended for our warning?
You contending that he is "The Lord's servant", dream on in blasphemy...
Verne
p.s the fact that many of us do not know the names of these sisters should in no way deter us from earnestly praying for them. It is our responsibility...
Verne

I have a few thoughts on this matter, but I am not dogmatic in my opinion here.

The Lord Jesus received the repentant sinner and was not ashamed to be assosciated with them.  Those very ones, like the women at the well, went boldly and declared "Come, see a man who told me all the things that I have done; this is not the Christ, is it?"(John 4:29).  This bold declaration was the means of deliverance of many who were sitting in darkness.

GG was in SF/Sac at the time of his excomm... (I believe).  He convinced the ones there that the Fullerton LBs were attempting to get rid of him and found some sisters to come forward and say things like "We were uncomfortable  etc...".  These ones (SF/Sac) still sit in darkness because they declare that GGs excomm... was not handled Biblically.  I personally disagree with them, but I do not know if the Fullerton LBs could convince them to change their minds.

And then there's the story of the rich man and Lazarus:
Luke 16:30 "But he said, 'No, Father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!'
Luke 16:31 "But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.'"
They have a lot of evidence, but they are refusing the means of their deliverance from bondage because they have a 'mindset' about how God should answer their prayers.  Pride is what keeps these ones clinging on to a system that is bound to collapse.  Sac/Ottawa are proud that they 'did it their way' and were not influenced by GG before, so they will continue on doing it their way now.  Yet strangely enough, when they prayed about certain matters before, they usually ended up being of the same mind as GG.

It is of great concern though, that the 'assembly' has not been taken out of some of these individuals and that they are now influencing others with their 'poisonous stew'.  Brent has given some good suggestions to Delila's query "what can we do?" that merit prayerful consideration.

Lord bless,
Marcia

You make a good point above.

What I said below is my opinion, and I do not dare reveal more on the matter.  I could not agree with you more about your assessment of the sinful passivity of Mark Miller and his fellow geftakysservants.

Clergy perpetrating sexual abuse seems to me to be the most heinous of all.  These men have power, esteem and THEY KNOW BETTER.  Women and children! who suffer at their hands have my deepest sympathy.

Still, if this problem is going to go away, either the victims, or a powerful victims's advocate must speak up!  Not that this makes much of a difference, but I even heard Dr. Laura echo my views.

Struggling does make another extremely strong argument:

The abuse will be re-created in George's followers.  Guys like Testa are more than capable.

Brent

Hi all,

As William F. Buckley once said..."and now for a few words in defence of the Devil".  ;)

The Fullerton assembly leaders openly declared GG's sins, while trying to protect the sisters involved from further shame.  In light of Matthew 1:18-19, I do not see how they could have done otherwise.

Unless you know everything these brothers have done or said to the recalcitrant clowns in the "receiving" assemblies, you are not well informed enough to judge their behavior.

That's my .02.

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

Tom what about the other assemblies that receive George though and those who still operate in code of silence mode what about them?

Fullerton may have repented but there are others still following George and even more that are believing they can regroup and cleanse their places from George's influence but have not sought outside help. What do you say to them?

Hugh,

People are  responsible for that which lies within their power to control.  As to what I would say to them, I have already said it in great detail on these boards.
I have also had a number of personal conversations with folks since the "fall".

I cannot compel anyone to listen to me, or to do what I think they should do.  That is just not within my power.


I would tell them they are deluded fools, and would endeavor to show them why I think so.  But if they chose to ignore me, what could I do?   Believe me, I have been dealing with this question for 15 years.

The assemblies that are following the old practices of the GG assemblies, even if they have rejected GG, are still cultic groups.  I would, and do, warn anyone that is involved with them that will listen to me.

They have insulated themselves in the darkness and will just have to stay there until they decide to open the windows.

Think of it Hugh, what I have heard about the sisters that sinned with GG is that some of them are married now.  If it were your wife that had fallen into this, would you want a big sign posted accross the street from the meeting place, "Mrs. Hugh X sinned with GG for two years!"

Would you do that to your wife?  I'm sure you wouldn't.  Well, "do unto others".

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

This should help many to understand why it is not always the most Christ-honoring thing to divulge all... :'(


...for several of you who have over the months inquired:

Why are you so angry at the leading brothers, Verne??!!

You don't know the half of it...



Verne

That's true. I guess what concerns me more than anything is how it keeps on perpetuating the evil. I have no axe to grind with anyone in or out but would like to warn others and those who God may be trying to show them something that the Assembly is an evil place. Obviously I am not saying any are beyond hope but many put themselves in a place where they cannot hear God in what we are saying. I am sad that many who I thought of as best friends are so deceived and I feel helpless to help them.

I remember in 1978 when I was 18 years old, my dad likened the group to Oral Roberts and the fakery of that ministry.  It was absolutely perposterous in my mind.  I insisted that this group was different.

12 years later, I was much more open to the idea.

Change does not always happen immediately.  When they are ready, they will listen.

One more thought that may help:  You have to put this idea of evil (a much overused word like the words "cult" and "awesome") into perspective.  Is the Assembly the only evil out there?  Take a ride on a pro-choice web and meet women who will give each other high fives when the goverment upholds their right to suck an almost-born baby's brains out.  Or read the blasphamous ravings of ultra-liberal commedians who write books that mock Christ.  Or follow the exploits of groups whose goal is to marginalize any expression of religious thought from every aspect of society.  Wander through the Middle-East and mention that you are an American Christian and observe the reception you get.  Visit the Pagan Club at the University and insist that Christ is the only way to salvation.  Learn about the Sudanese goverment and their lovely treament of Christians (and understand why Franklin Graham called theirs an evil religion after they tried to bomb our hospital for the 3rd or 4th time).

If you're going to be depressed that their is evil in the world, you will probably have to go live in a cave.  Do what you can, pray, build something better.  But, you will have to ultimately get on with your life and wait until Christ untangles the mess - whether in our lifetime or at His Second Coming.

Dave you make a valid point but we expect such conduct from the groups you cite. The great horror of the assemblies, and what in my view makes them far more frightening and destructive is that what took place was promulgated under a "Christian" banner. In these matters, the counterfeit is far more deadly...
Verne

No argument there, Verne.  We Christians should know better and be the lights in the world.

My point in response to Hugh was that we can't always view the existence of alleged evil as our call to be on the front line fighting it.  I am not advocating passivity and I am thankful to God that Brent was not passive.  On the other hand, we can be consumed by it to the extent that we relinquish the opportunity to build something else positive - a ministry in a healthy local church, for instance.  Where the balance is, each person must decide.

Thus, the oft-quoted prayer:

God, grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
the courage to change the things I can;
and the wisdom to know the difference.

Dave & Verne ,
I agree with both of you.
Dave, I agree that we should not be so consumed that it prevents us from building something new. It is a wonderful liberty to be able to call the assembly for what it actually was, yet at the same time build on the solid  truth found in the scriptures. As you know many are unable to do this because the programming in the assembly taught that to question or critisize anything "assembly" was evil, for others it is an issue of pride.
Verne,
I agree with you that the great horror of the assembly was what was done under the banner of Christianity.
 I always felt George and some of his cronys were big blowhards. The difference for me after a year of reading this bb is that if I ever meet George or one of his good buddies on the street again I would no longer have to take the defensive from one of their condiscending verbal assaults.
Now I know there are some assembly groupies out there that would say I am no different than George and his buddies were. Well, I am different. I'm telling the truth, they told lies and are living a lie.

I gather from this discussion, that you agree that the assembly is an 'evil' place. But approaching those still "in" is often a futile effort, and may not be a profitable exercise.  Hugh attends the same church that Claude and I do, and we are all very happy there, but we do have a genuine concern for those who are still locked "in".  Hugh left 2 weeks after I did.  He attended some of the 'closed brethren' meetings before his departure and attempted to communicate that GG's influence had permeated the assembly such that it would be best to seek outside help.  Most of the brethren did not agree with him.  Anyway... it would seem that the best thing to do at this point is to 'leave them alone, they are blind guides of the blind...'  We also are concerned that those who remain 'assembly' sympathetic might influence the unwary with their assemblyisms.  To quote Verne here: May God grant us wisdom to do only His will.

Marcia

     Good points all, but to continue on the theme of "perspective," do we suppose that the sins of Geftakysism are greater than those of the Branch Davidians, Jim Jones, the Crusades or the Spanish Inquisition, all the horrors of which took place in the name of "Christianity?"  Hardly, but Geftakysism is the horror that happened to us!  We dare not take that fact for granted.  It is no coincidence that you and I are where we are today, nor is it any wonder that our hearts are heavy, as Hugh states, for those beloved to us who blindly remain behind in willing bondage.
     As Mordecai exhorted Esther:  ...who knows whether (we) have come to the kingdom for such a time as this?  Most of us may seldom if ever pray for the survivors of Waco, but we are uniquely qualified and motivated both to intercede for and bear witness to the victims of the assemblies.  It only remains for us each to determine how the Lord wants us to fulfill our opportunity.


Have Thine own way, Lord...

al Hartman

First, I really don't like the word evil as it is used today.  We live in a culture where most see Adolf Hitler and Saddum Hussin as evil, but also use the word to apply to President Bush and Jerry Fallwell.  The word has been dumbed down to basically apply to "anyone who is doing something that I think is wrong or may be hurtful."

Evil, in my book, is doing something undenyably unlawful (by a clear and undisputed standard of law) and denying that it is wrong.  Willful adultry on George's part and denial is evil.  Wife abuse and denial of responsibility is evil.

On the other hand, when we visit California this summer, we might drop in on a Wednesday Bible Study in Fullerton to see old friends.  The meeting is not an evil place, per se.  It's a Bible Study.  They have some wrong ideas (just like Democrats feel Bush has wrong ideas about the war and vice versa, but this does not make their national conventions evil).  Having a wrong premise and acting upon it does not make one evil.

Of what I have heard on this board, I would gather that there are possibly individuals who fit this description of evil in that they deny undeniable truth, promote lawlessness, and resist the self-evident truths of God for their own personal gain.  I have no idea who they are because I receive very little specific information about individuals from where I sit in North Carolina.   But, I have no basis to make an across-the-board judgement about everyone who is still meeting.

Dave,

If it is a matter of terminology, then let's just say that since the assembly is a spiritually unhealthy environment I associated it with 'evil'.  For that reason, I am concerned for those that remain "in".  There is still an active assembly in my locality, and I sometimes see some of these ones.  They still have many of the same unhealthy attitudes of control, code of silence etc.

I have gotten on with my life without the assembly, but I do wonder what it will take to break through to those who are still in bondage.

Lord bless,
Marcia

Marcia---

Waking up from deception is like falling headlong into ice-water. You're walking along, in your self-imposed deception....dum dee dum, dum dee dum...then you get whacked on the back of the head, and <splash>
WHOA!!!! THAT'S COLD!!!! And you come to the realization that you've been duped the whole time. Later you're thankful someone whacked you on the back of the head and you fell into that frigid water.
Just like those penguins.

Joe

Marcia,

I do indeed see the point you are making.  I apologize for coming across reactive about the definition of "evil".  It is a sore spot with me.  As this is an election year, I have to endure people that I admire being likened to Adolf Hitler and Saddum Hussain by angry folks who just don't happen to like their policies.  

Nevertheless, I don't want to distract from your good point - a genuine burden and care for lifetime friends still in the Assembly.

-Dave

P.S.:  I enjoyed the penguines as well who, I believe, has always been a type of the flesh battling against those who want to make progress in their Christian life. ;)

'Shock treatment' seems to be the only effective method to break through the fog of deception. Eh??


I knew there was a spiritual significance to those penguins, and you brothers have enlightened me.

Here's another, especially for Joe and Verne: Penguins are black and white. 8)

Marcia

Marcia:
There is not an active assembly in my locale but there are a few who'd love to start one.  That scares me too.  Regardless of the fact that gg nolonger controls the assembly, the mind he taught still controls many minds here.  I warned another church today who'd offered an assembly member a bible study or some other venue.  They said they'd already locked heads with some serious doctrine discussions.
Now, on the bright side: There is another sister here I had a wonderful visit with yesterday.  You know who.  She is a 'type of judy' if we want to use gg lingo.  And she's free and we had the first honest discussion we've ever had, the first discussion we never had to censor ourselves for.  And it was the most wonderful conversation I've ever had in my life.  So Brent: cheers for the truth!  The truth is glorious.  More later

delila

Delila:

I'm so glad to see you participating here again.  The road to recovery is a circuitous route.  I am glad to see you having some positive experiences.  There will probably also be some disappointing, even heartbreaking ones.  Don't be deprived of seeking a place of healing and restoration.

A few thoughts regarding the use of the word "evil" (cf. Dave's post yesterday). In the sermon on the mount, the Lord Jesus Christ said "If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?" (Mat. 7:11)  Seems to me that He was saying that ALL sinful human beings are evil. He also said "No one is good but One, that is, God." (Mat. 19:17). We may not all DO as much evil as Hitler, etc., but we all ARE evil nonetheless. As the Apostle Paul said, "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells" (Rom. 7:18). "For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive?" (I Cor. 4:7). "There but for the grace of God ..."

Kimberly,
There's enough to be sad about if a person wants to be sad.  True.  
But - here's the rub: really being free, I can't help see the plus side of this.  The assembly never set me free so I wasn't 'free indeed' - the opposite was an obvious goal.  I went for 'counsel' over the stupidest things, and if I didn't, was stepped on later.  
Now, no one screens my calls, no pope stands in God's place approving or condemning me.  I'm learning not to do that to myself either.  That's the truth

delila

Delila,

YEAH ;D ;D ;D ;D!!!!!

While I would agree that your point is sound theology in light of our standing before God, it is not very useful for the question at hand - deciding when a person's unrestrained behavior reaches the point that we take decisive action against them.  If your and my behavior is just as evil as George Geftaky's, what right do we have to condemn his actions on this website?  On what basis can we say that David Geftakys did anything worse that us if we are just as evil as he?  Why should the leading brothers step down since we are just as evil as they might be?  And who would replace the leading brothers because these brothers are evil, too.  Further, all the pastors in all the other churches are evil, so what point is there in leaving the Assembly to attend these other churches?

The point is, there is a sense in which we use the term evil to describe the sinful nature of all mankind as they relate to God's holy standard.  On the other hand, there is a sense in which we use the word to quantify someone's behavior.  It is in this latter sense that we say that Saddum Hussain is evil and Mr. Rogers is not.

Dave---

Thanks for that post. I have heard the logic you describe in your post a lot: "George sinned. Were all sinners. What George did was very wrong. But we are all capable of having done the same wrong. Since we are all capable of having done this, why do you judge him?" In effect---cut him a break will ya? Yes--we are all capable of great evil. But we are not all leaders of a group of God's people, in a position of great dominance over those same people.

As you mentioned Dave, everyone is "evil" in their basest of natures. But as you said, Mr. Rogers is no Saddam Hussein. And the lowly fearful follower of someone like George, is definitely no George.

--Joe

Great discussion on the nature of evil!
One way we have of making distinctions, even though we concede that we are all fallen creatures, is to assess the conduct of the observed. I agree with Dave that there is a practical component to the way in which we make that assessment and we would not ascribe the same level of severity to the offense of the man who cheats on his taxes, as we would to the one who rapes and murders his neighbour's wife.
This is all well and good from a human standpoint and rightly moderates the manner of our interaction with the theoretical transgressor.
The interesting thing to me though is that it would appear that this is not God's standard. How often did we observe the Lord to say:
"You have heard it said by them of old time.....but  I say unto you..." ?
One remarkable such example is the Lord's making an unholy look the equivalent of the act of adultery.
To the human intellect this seems all-together unreasonable does it not?
The lesson I draw from this is that none of us know the true depth of our own heart's depravity, our often veneer of civility notwithstanding. It is my own view that apart from the gracious restraint of God Himself, the sins committed by the worst of men, could be committed by any man.
This is the awful nature of sin. Our view of ourselves as sinners is often like being a little bit pregnant, in that we invoke questionable standards of degree.
This is a most vexing problem. We probably frequently misjudge the level of severity attendant to that which we judge only with feeble human sense; we are wont to temporise and to mitigate. I would certainly like to hear other thoughts on this...
Verne

Delila makes an important observation that "Regardless of the fact that gg nolonger controls the assembly, the mind he taught still controls many minds".

Also, though I agree that we needed a number of years to come to our senses, those who remain assembly sympathetic today do so by their own choice.  They are totally responsible for their state of deception.  God has sent the helicopter and the boat and the rope so-to-speak, but they have refused the means of His deliverance.  The Lord Jesus made a similar lament in His day that they did not recognize their day of visitation, but He continued to rebuke them for their behaviour.

LUK 19:44 ...because you did not recognize the time of your visitation. "
LUK 19:45 ¶ And He entered the temple and began to cast out those who were selling,
LUK 19:46 saying to them, "It is written, 'And My house shall be a house of prayer,' but you have made it a robbers' den."

JOH 3:19 "And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their deeds were evil.
JOH 3:20 "For everyone who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
JOH 3:21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

Marcia

     I attempted to make a similar statement on another thread some months ago.  One response was to the effect of "No, I don't think I could ever do the kinds of things that George has done."
     It is easy to miss the distinction between sins and sin:
     Sins are actual deeds of commission or omission; things done that should not have been, or things that ought to have been done but were not.
     SIN is the element introduced in equal measure into every soul ever since the fall in Eden.
     Just because we may not feel the inclination to commit certain sins does not mean that we have any less the nature of sin within us than the very worst of mankind.  Unless we learn the truth of the concept "There, but for the grace of God, were I," have we truly begun to appreciate the gift of salvation which Christ died to give us?

al Hartman

Most people go through life without murdering their spouse.

Most people, at some point are incredibly angry with their spouse, with many to the point of hatred.  (Divorce rate)

Jesus said that the latter is murder in the heart, but it is much different than the former.  I may get angry at my wife sometimes, and vice-versa, but we haven't killed eachother yet, and probably never will.

Am I capable of doing what George did?  Of course.

Have I done once what he practiced for decades?  No, and I promise I won't.  While we are both sinners, there is something seriously wrong with him.  

I certainly hope this discussion doesn't steer back towards equivocating George's very heinous sin.  It fits into a special category, not at all the same as the normal weaknesses we all possess.

Brent

Brent---

Thanks for your post.  We've all seen the guy who murdered 3 people in the court room, while his attorney argues that "the abuse he suffered as a child led him to do these things". The attorney pleads for "leniency" because of what he has suffered. And there is a logic in this which says "Maybe if I was abused as he was I would murder 3 people too. Who am I to judge this man? What makes me any better than he? We're all murderers at heart."

Often these pleadings pay off and the penalty is reduced. And the parents and friends of the 3 murdered people are the ones who truly suffer for it.

In the same way, we as Christians can say "Oh, what George did was terrible. But we are all capable of doing the same things. And since we are all capable of these things, we should not be so hard on him for the evil things he did." By doing this, his offences are lessened in our minds, and the testimony of those who lived under him is called "bitterness" rather than truth. The sufferers are told to "just let it go" and stop judging so harshly.

It's like turning to the families of the 3 murder victims and saying(and I realize this is a far more heinous crime than George commited but is worth the analogy)
"Oh, just let it go. You could have murdered someone just as easily if you suffered what he went through as a child. We are all murderers. Stop judging the man so harshly. Judge not lest ye be judged".

--Joe

Woe to the people who call Good, Evil  and Evil, Good!

We are supposed to have our minds exercised to discerne the difference between Good and Evil.  This presupposes that both exist.  If all is Evil, and nothing Good, than the Bible is full of double talk and nonsense.

Let's put it plainly.  George's behavior is Evil, not Good.  

How do I know this?  It is plain as day!  Only people like us,  who had our minds starved and poisoned for decades, could actually debate the topic!

All the people who took one look at the Chapter Summary and walked out never to return-----these people understood what was going on.  Tell them about what took place and you will get a straight answer.

Even better, ask George's brother or nephew about George's character.  They get it.

We were taught how to "not think," how to excuse abuse, and how to call Evil---legalism, Galatianism, authoritarianism, plagiarism, coercion, manipulation, sexual abuse, physical abuse----we were taught to excuse all of this.  We were taught to call Evil, Good.   We were also taught to call Good----"worldly" Christianity----Evil!

Nuff Said!  We were/are Pharisees!  

Brent

Hi Everyone ! :)
  I heard a very good explanation of the verses in Matt. 5 re. anger at my brother being compared with the actual act of murder by Jesus.  The same passage uses other examples of evil behavior and the evil thought in one's heart as being equal in God's eyes.
  I don't pretend to understand fully these Sermon On The Mount teachings, but we know that we are not to interpret a passage without considering it's context in the NT and how Jesus disciples understood it is important as well.
  I do not believe that Jesus was teaching that behavior and fleeting thoughts that are not acted on are equally evil.  The key is the phrase "in the heart", because that phrase means more than a surge of feeling.  The heart was understood in Jesus day as more than the emotional center of one's personality and included the will and reasoning faculties as well.
  Those who are plotting evil in their hearts' (premeditation) are not the same as those who have a temporary feeling of ill will toward another that they are able to control.
  Here are two good examples that will help us understand what I'm saying:  A terrorist plots to attack the White House, but is caught before he can complete the act and is just as evil as the terrorist who plots but who is able to complete the terrorist act.  The second example:  I'm driving down the freeway in my truck and a car. without using a turn signal, cuts in front of me as a light turns red and I barely stop before almost hitting the jerk.  I am filled with the emotion of anger and would like to get out and kick the butt of the driver, but I restrain myself (my almost daily experience).
  In this last personal example the negative emotions are not what Jesus was talking about because it did not come from the heart.  The proof that it did not have control of my heart is that I did not act on it, even though I had the opportunity to do so.
   This must be the case as we see Jesus, Paul, etc. getting angry to the point of calling others "fools". whipping those in the Temple, wishing false teachers would "emasculate themselves", etc. and what this tells us is that Jesus in Matt. 5 is not saying that such negative emotions, attitudes, or even behaviors are always equal.  Jesus was trying to deal with the heart of a pharisee who trusted in self righteousness and was preparing the way for understanding the grace of God.
   Brent is correct:  We must make clear distinctions re. good and evil and by one's behavior we can tell what is in their hearts'.
                           God Bless,  Mark C.
 

Joe,

I think that what makes the difference between the fact that all of us have a capacity for evil, and those who become truly evil is a matter of progression.

When a person willfully commits acts of evil they become increasingly deceived and hardened.   What was unthinkable at one time becomes your history down the road.

Therefore, the Bible uses terms like, "put off", "flee", "avoid".

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

This "double standard" discussion reminds me of a conversation I had with a still-in member who was defending Geftakys' behavior with the usual "...we all make mistakes; he's asked for forgiveness..."  

With a look of disbelief on my face I reminded the member of his outrage at Bill Clinton and his sexual misbehavior.  Had Bill Clinton behaved in a despicable way?  Of course.  However, he at least had never set himself up as our spiritual leader.   The Assemblyite had condemned Clinton out of hand with no possible forgiveness and yet here he was defending Geftakys for all he was worth.

Double standards, indeed.

Perhaps if you plan ahead?  Mathematically, it is possible to calculate the maximum speed and point at which it is not possible to stop at a light based on how many seconds long the yellow light lasts.  If you have a stop-watch, you can time how long it takes to stop from various speeds.  Comparing that data with how many seconds a given yellow light lasts, you can determine the maximum speed for that light.  From your description, it would seem that a truck should plan on stopping a car-length before the intersection.  Add to that the stopping distance that corresponds to the maximum speed determined in the previous step.  The calculated distance is how far before the intersection the yellow light decision to stop should be made.  Of course, some drivers will cause problems by stopping more quickly than necessary, so you'll probably have to go even slower still, and you might have two cars pull in front of you so you might need to stop further back.  Maybe a better truck would help?


In the parable of the tares, discerning the immature plants is not reliable enough to be trusted, but someone who is trusted to be in a leadership position needs to be spiritually mature enough for some discernment about them to be possible.  Human discernment will always be limited.

Not to get off the subject (that's already off the subject) - But where are you faithful dissenters at as far as protesting "George Rebuilding his house". Have you given up?

Unless I have not found the correct or most up to date info on the WWW, it appears that both George G. & Timothy G. have be accused of sexual sin, have not repented, and are still in leadership.  Can anyone get statements attesting first hand knowledge of that? From what I've read at the various web-sites such statements have already been made handed over to ex-members.  

Someone please confirm or correct me on this!

Yup.  Looks like they're off topic.

George: do you doubt there are problems?  
Tim: is a talented speaker but not an honest man.  He's lied about many things to me and others and he is his father's son, towing the family line of pat answers and predictable responses to honest questions.  As far as the other stuff, I can not comment.

I don't believe there is an 'ex-assembly' mind here.  We are individuals, not borg.  We have broken from the collective.  I repeat, we are individuals.  You wouldn't believe how the 'Lord spoke to me' through star trek the next gen when I finally left the assembly and moved in with a woman who owned a tv.   So you won't get one single response.  Ask a question, and you'll get many responses here.  We all have minds, switched on and in increasingly good working condition.

Where you from?  I'm from Canada.
George's doors are currently closed here.  yippie!
delila

About giving up:

There are many ways to heal from the assembly.  We could burn our bras (no, that was feminism wasn't it? - or part of the protest early on)
We could tie ourselves to trees (what some people btw believe we do on this website) - they think we relive the pain again and again just by logging on.  That's why they don't log on.  I've had conversations with people who don't check it out and that's the reason given, not that they doubt what went on in the assembly was abusive, but that by being here, they will do anything but wound themselves again.
We could sue (the american way - anybody up for that?) - the legal system, in my opinion, as slow and slick as it is, is a wonderful tool for wounding oneself.
What else?
Oh yeah: we could seek out those we know have suffered and spend some time being a part of that healing.  That happens here.  And that also happens where we live and work and have contacts with those formerly in the assembly.
This last way to heal is what I have chossen.  I told someone who suffered very much much much more than I, that she was a hero to me and my sister (also of x assembly lineage who chooses NOT to participate on this website).  She took my hand and we both cried.  She's a hero for me because she survived even though not one single assembly member stood by her.  She survived decades of abuse and found the courage to claim her life again.
That's why I call, demolishing gg's house!
hip
hip
HOrray!

delila

Dede,

I think that one must draw a distinction between GG's situation and Tim's.  

I can remember being outraged when GG would accuse me of saying or doing something on the basis of information he recieved from some unnamed informant.

The Pharisee's rule was, "in the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses".
It seems to me that we cannot accept a lower standard than they did.  Not if we are going to claim to "judge righteous judgement".

In GG's case, an investigation was conducted and several sisters admitted guilt, which, of course, means GG was guilty as well.

I am aware of some claims made about Tim G. that say he was guilty of sexual sin with sisters prior to his marriage.
I have never heard an accusation of adultery.

However, these are not confessions, but claims to have heard other people say that Tim did this.  Therefore I would not accuse him of this behavior until I heard credible evidence.

Now, as to the idea that Tim G. is a "pretty good preacher" I would disagree.  I believe that Tim is so poorly taught that he has no business teaching others.

There is a difference between the gift of gab and expounding the Word faithfully.

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

Tom

Check my message.  I never said he was a pretty good preacher.  I said he was a talented speaker.  Big differance.  So was Hitler.
Delila

There are people who have first hand statements, and there are the women themselves.

They don't want to make a public statement, and many of us don't feel right about making it for them.  

Of course, there are Rachel and Judy, who did say something.  Mostly, people don't want to trouble themselves, which is understandable, or they are afraid, which is typical.

However, a number of people know about George's sin,  and it is definitely legit.

Brent

I am curious. How many people on the BB would be as confident as Brent in making the above statement?
If you would be, and I am speaking as a believer, why?
If you would not be, why not?



Whether or not this happens depends very much on some fundamental agreement on what the standard should be for a servant of Jesus Christ.
The statements of some in this regard have been a source of dismay.
It is clear to me that those who engage in equivocation regarding george geftakys' conduct have no idea of who Jesus Christ is and what he stands for, pompous pronouncements to the contrary notwithstanding. The harshest language in the New Testament was directed at people like george geftakys and employed by the Lord Jesus Hhimself! Consider the scandalous assertions of some of reprobate mind that this cretin is "The Lord's servant"!!!
Make no mistake about it folks. Anyone defending or excusing a person like this exposes themsleves as depraved and corrupt and worthy of utter rejection by people who love the Lord Jesus Christ. If the conduct of this wicked man does not move you to outrage and a passion for God's honor to be vindicated, you are a spirtual traitor to the cause of Christ- no exceptions! I completely agree with Brent regarding the nature of geftakys' sin. It does not scripturally qualify  as that of a brother over-taken in a fault. Those of you who would treat it as such are remarkably foolish in my humble opinion.
Verne

Did you remind this "still-in member" that GG HAS NOT ASKED FOR FORGIVENESS!!!!!!!!!!  He has not even admitted that he did anything.  He contends that it is all lies!  These people are now making up stories (revisionist history was rampant in the assembly btw)! ::) ::) ::)

Tom,
I would agree with you on this one. I have refered to Geftakys appointed leadership as " Charlie the Tunas", They looked good or as in Tims case had "the gift of gab" but how many expounded the Word of God faithfully and untainted from Georges control ?
Mark K

Verne to answer your Question, A sincere follower of Jesus Christ believes, "That the fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom" You embrace and involve the precepts of God in your life because you respect and love the Lord as the result of the redemptive work of Calvary in our heart.
To turn your back on Gods perfect will and then take steps to cover up and protect a wicked lifestyle is a pretty clear indiction of someone who does not share the belief that, "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom.

Be careful how you quote:
drj
Now, as to the idea that Tim G. is a "pretty good preacher" I would disagree.  I believe that Tim is so poorly taught that he has no business teaching others.


Thomas Maddux

Tom,
I would agree with you on this one. I have refered to Geftakys appointed leadership as " Charlie the Tunas", They looked good or as in Tims case had "the gift of gab" but how many expounded the Word of God faithfully and untainted from Georges control ?
Mark K

Ya ain't agonna git him for money issues...anyone in the whole county can give a gift of up to $10,000 dollars a year to anyone else.  Couples can give up to $20,000 a yr.  These gifts are not taxable...and any tax on gifts to others over $10,000 are taxable...for the gift-giver...
DP


My question is this...

What are the objectives?  Is the only objective to warn people about George via newspaper ads and email to other churches?  I think that is way to soft and would only do good for a limited time.  In order to stop this monster, I think he needs to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.  For crying out loud, this guy and his sons have illegally mishandled and misappopriated funds for years now and more than likely have cheated horifically on their taxes.  

Yep.

However, here is the problem.  The women won't come forward publicly and bring an action against him.  Everyone else is too cowardly or lazy to do anything of substance.  All of us agreee that something should be done, but very few are willing to anything.

I have done my part, mostly because I knew that if I didn't do it, it would never get done.  My family paid a price, and we all agree it was worth it.  However,  we bought as much as we can pay for and it is up to others to step up and do the rest.

We were all a bunch of cowards, and passive dupes while under George's influence.  The question remains,  does anyone out there have the cojones to do more?

I can tell you this much, if he seduced one of my daughters, I would do something about it.  There are people's daughters out there who probably haven't told their parents what happened, so not much help there.

On the other hand, there are husbands married to women whom George abused, and former fiances of women he abused, and they do nothing!  Good riddance!  

It's not my place to tell their stories, or reveal their identities on this forum, although most people know who they are---gossip was always a strong point in The Assembly.  If they don't do anything about it, nothing will get done.

George's ministry will never recover, and the second generation of little George's and their sychophants will not reach the degree of influence that the first did.  I take comfort in that, and in the price I paid to see it happen.

If these women can sleep at night, without perscription drugs I would be surprised.  Why don't they do something?

Oh yeah, it's painful.  Yep, I suppose it is really bad, but does that relieve them of their responsiblilty to see that it doesn't happen again?

One of the women was George's regular squeeze a decade ago.  She didn't warn the next one about what he was like.  George didn't rape anyone...they were willing, although coerced.  These women bear the responsibility to warn others.  They engaged in immoral acts with a married man.  Were they victims....ABSOLUTELY!   However, they are also guilty.

Brent

Re:Dealing With Deception  



    As one who has been publicly taken to task on the GABB for judging the motives of others, I am baffled by the ongoing persecution of the Geftakys family and their followers.  I know this is a shocking statement, but please hear me out:

    Clearly what these persons were engaged in was satan's work in opposition to God, Christ, the church as a whole, and every individual affected.  And the results were catastrophic for years.  Lives were lost or ruined.  Families were destroyed.  Surely the half of the overall devastation has not yet been revealed.

    We need to know all we can know about the nature of the deception perpetrated upon us.  We need to understand how we were deceived to prevent its recurrence, and we must learn what we did or did not do that allowed us to be misled.  But that is the extent of the "why" that is important to us.

    Whether the perpetrators of the evil we experienced were knowingly in league with the devil or were themselves deceived and manipulated has no bearing whatever on the effect that the evil had upon the unsuspecting.  And the judgment of those souls who were the instruments of pain and suffering is the Lord's to perform.

    I am not saying that anyone with cold hard evidence of criminality should not turn it over to the IRS or the vice squad or whatever agency has jusisdiction.  I'm pretty sure that's what I'd do.  But I am saying that vengeance and judgment are the Lord's, and speculations as to motive are no better than a witch-hunt, offering nothing to be gained beyond venting one's spleen.

    We do not, cannot know the heart of another.  We are to discern whether spirits are from God.  We are to discern whether the deeds of men are good or evil, whether or not their words are true.  But we are not told to find out their reasons-- only how to recognize them and how to treat them.  And those whose lives are conduits for evil we are not to treat nicely or sweetly, but severely.  Their judgment and sentencing, however, remain the Lord's domain.

    There is full-time work to be done in the recovery of souls, the rebuilding of faith and relationships, and preventive efforts on behalf of the vulnerable.  While anger and pain over the past may be understandable, further pursuit of the guilty and shaming of the complicit are neither instructed nor condoned.  At least not to my understanding.

    It is not my intent to take on the "big guns," but I am in disagreement with these particular pursuits.  Every effort being made in Christian ministry must focus on the Lord Jesus Christ or it is eccentric-- off-center.
    Do we need Christ and justice?  Do we need Christ and vengeance?  NO!  We do not need Christ and anything!!!  We need Christ, and Him alone.

    Let us allow our anger and our pain to propel us unto Him, where we can experience healing and be reinvigorated as vessels in His service.  Let us come to Him and learn of Him and find rest and peace for our souls.  What we need is not closure, but closeness to Him.

    Teach us how deception was/is perpetrated, and how we made ourselves susceptible to it.  But leave the "why" of it to be judged by the One against Whose name and testimony and people it was performed.

          I have also posted this on the RFTWBB, in response to a recent post by Verne.  I regret taking the unpopular position, and stand open to enlightenment and correction.

al Hartman

Al,

"On going persecution of the Geftakys family and their followers"

Huh?

Is someone persecuting the Geftakys family?

Are you equating criticism with persecution?

Thomas Maddux

Tom & All,

     Poorly stated on my part perhaps, but No, I do not equate criticism with persecution, nor do I mean to speak against criticism.  My previous post was criticism.  Criticism is opinion, to which everyone is entitled (or so I've been told).  But to preach opinion as unimpeachable fact?
     For example, Brent said,     Not being one of those women, I obviously fall into the category of "too cowardly or lazy," along with you & "everybody else."  And while I am willing to do something, I'm not sure that I agree that something "ought to be done," which excludes me from "all of us."  Nor do I think it necessarily a good thing to shame those women who could, but have not, come forth to testify.  They have not been named on this forum, but some will know who they are, and they know who they are-- the tactic appears to be to make them feel guilty for not doing what someone else wants them to do.

     Have George, Betty, David & others been tools of the devil?  Without doubt to my mind they have.  But willingly and with malice aforethought?  And if so, was that always their intent?  Or at what point did they shift from being deceived to being commited co-conspiritors in evil?
     There is a clamoring for blood; for heads to roll.  It is spiritually unhealthy, and a hindrance to spiritual recovery.  That is my opinion-- I do not ask anyone to accept it, but to consider:  Will we feel so much better if we can watch the guilty suffer?
     From what I've read & heard, "closure" (the present-day cure for all ills) is accomplished within the individual, and efforts to achieve it through the working of outward events are inevitably incomplete and disappointing.

     The toppling of the Geftaky kingdom has been done, accomplished primarily through the instrument of a noble and good man, and some others cut from the same cloth.  Assemblyism still lives, in a diminished fashion, and there is yet a lot of rescue & recovery work to be done there.  Then there are the scattered, the disenfranchised, the decimated to be helped and healed.
     People frequent these BBs & websites who God is calling to His service.  It is hard for me to believe that the service He desires of them is the criminal or civil prosecution of people whose power has been broken, and who God will judge with far greater severity & finality than will ever be achieved by men.  After all, their sin was primarily against Him.

     There is a man here in central Ohio who has been a licensed preacher for probably over half a century.  He is a charlatan who preys upon the ignorant to gain control of their money and property, at which he has been very successful.  He has also been prosecuted, convicted, sentenced and incarcerated for his misdeeds.  While he was in prison, his affairs were faithfully managed by loyal followers, and upon his release he returned to business as usual.  Nothing of any apparent eternal significance was established through his punishment.
     We are not in a position to execute in worldly courts justice for spiritual offenses, nor is it our calling to do so.  If, in the course of godly pursuits, one should have occasion to present evidence to such a court against an enemy of society one should do so, thus rendering unto caesar what is caesar's.  But ours is not to make a crusade of so doing.  Our calling in Christ is far higher and infinitely more important than that.

     That is my opinion.  I regret that it is in criticism of the opinions of others who I respect.

al Hartman

Whoah!

We as Christians are not above the law of the land. This country was founded on Christian principles and the court system is a result of that; and how ever foul it can become, is there for the protection of the people of this country.

George has been excommunicated and is not "entreatable" regarding his behavior and actions toward any one of us. Anything he receives from the courts is a consequence of his own wrongdoing. God does judge in the long run, but also in the temporal life now. George doesn't deserve anymore leniency for his actions than anyone else in the world does.  Would it make a difference if he had murdered someone? Our courts aren't in existence to try only murderers, but a host of wrongs that can be done against any one in the country.

God can work thru the court system. Governments and court systems have been set up by him, and specific individuals working in them have been allowed by Him to be there, whether they be saved or unsaved, republican or democrat.

We still need the court system. The system may eventually put us all in prison some day, but for now, still affords protection for the majority of us.

Moonflower2

Al:

And what about "illegal" offenses? So, I can, in the "name of God" committ a crime and get away with it, because God's people are to leave "vengeance with the Lord"????   ???

I think this is ludicrous - but I love you Al.  ;)

I am facing the possibility of child protective services knocking on my door in the not too distant future for seeking psychological help for my children from the damage done in the assembly.  The authorities are going to put my family through the ringer because of the counsel (and pressure) received from these people and you are telling me that I'm just to "leave vengeance with the Lord"????????

I DON'T THINK SO!!!!!!  If the authorities become involved (as I have been informed they will) then I will absolutely start naming names and bringing these people into the loop.  They are just as culpable as my husband and myself (if not more so).  We were their instrument but they were the catalyst.

Are there other children at risk from this still wicked, evil counsel?  Not in my home, I have repudiated that form of discipline and will never discipline in the same fashion again.  But I'm not so sure about these people who counseled us.

I don't think you've thought this through Al.  Is GG susceptible to repeating the ILLEGAL offenses he has committed?  ABSOLUTELY!  There should be action taken against them, to stop any future ILLEGAL offenses from being committed.

Hi Al,

This is my opinion on the matter re. George and Betty Geftakys and their ministry.

They do no deserve to continue in any form of ministry.  Similar to Jim Jones, and Koresh etc.  Where does one draw the line to say that this was evil and this was not.  It is very easy to label the JJones' and the Koresh's as evil, but the Geftakys ministry was evil too IMO.  So many lives scarred and wounded.  All to keep the Geftakys engine going, so that they could line their pockets ETC.

Cowardly and lazy is an apt description for those who only want to be on the receiving end of the benefits of the demise of the Geftakys ministry, but do not want to do anything to further that cause.  Some people absolutely cannot do anything, but there are many that can and do not take the initiative to do so.  When I can, I am doing what I can at my end, little as it may be.  By what I experience I understand very well why the Geftakys ministry continued for as long as it did.  People just do not want to rock the boat.  They are happy in their fog of deception and their friendships and their pride (unwilling to admit that they were wrong).

Hope this helps.
Lord bless,
Marcia

Only a blunt, direct and straight answer will do here.

Al, your response is full of crap.

I understand clergy abuse, and I understand why people didn't say something before.  Very few people have the courage to stand alone and fight.  Look at 911; only one man, one one plane resisted....but he was successfull and got others to help.  The rest whimpered in their seats while some Arabs with box cutters were leading them to their death.

We owe the man who said,  "let's roll," a huge debt of thanks.

In this situation,  the women were able to come forward because an environment that allowed them to do so was created, via the website.   They came forward and said what happened.  George was excommunicated.  This is good.

However, now George is at it again, along with his boys Testa, McCalister, Matsen-boze, and  perhaps his son Timothy.  There may be others.  

The fact that these women kept silent all those years allowed George to abuse other women, and attract zealous but misguided followers who gave him cash.  If people are going to complain that "someone needs to do something," but do nothing about it themselves then they deserve it.

The women George had sex with could put him away.  Probably not legally, because they were consenting to some degree, but certainly they could put a stop to his ever ministering again.

In the existing Assemblies, the "story" is that there was only one instance, about 15 years ago, and that it was no big deal, and that George repented and made it right with the sister.  This is a lie, and these women, by telling the truth could deliver the fools who still serve in George's house in SF and Sacramento.

I've had it.  I've heard enough.

Don't give me any more garbage about ministy, or descerning spirits and hearts, blah blah blah.  We are talking about adultery, blow-jobs and epic hypocrisy here.  

What is there to discern?

I realize some won't like what I am saying; just realize that I am back in shock mode, and some of you need a hard blow to your thick skulls in order to wake up out of your theoretical, impotent thinking.

You can't plow a field by turning it over in your mind.

Brent

Quote from Brent: (sorry folks, don't know how to do the quote thing.)

"On the other hand, there are husbands married to women whom George abused, and former fiances of women he abused, and they do nothing!  Good riddance!  

It's not my place to tell their stories, or reveal their identities on this forum, although most people know who they are---gossip was always a strong point in The Assembly.  If they don't do anything about it, nothing will get done.

George's ministry will never recover, and the second generation of little George's and their sychophants will not reach the degree of influence that the first did.  I take comfort in that, and in the price I paid to see it happen.

If these women can sleep at night, without perscription drugs I would be surprised.  Why don't they do something?

Oh yeah, it's painful.  Yep, I suppose it is really bad, but does that relieve them of their responsiblilty to see that it doesn't happen again?

One of the women was George's regular squeeze a decade ago.  She didn't warn the next one about what he was like.  George didn't rape anyone...they were willing, although coerced.  These women bear the responsibility to warn others.  They engaged in immoral acts with a married man.  Were they victims....ABSOLUTELY!  However, they are also guilty."

Brent,

This smacks of the worst of assembly behavior. When people were weak or wounded in the assembly--especially if they had just enough strength to leave--we found something more to accuse them of, some other sin, real or imagined) to drive them down. And we did it all without really knowing what in the hell (used in the literal sense) we were talking about.

Brent, do you know what some of these women have done to try to stop George? Do you know what they have personally said to George and Scott and Mike and Jim? And how painful it was to be called liars by them? Are you fully aware of the legal avenues they have persued and are persuing? Many are still learning the depth of their victimization. I can assure you all of them know the depth of their guilt and much of that is not thier to bear. As for their husbands, parents, children, boyfriends, I praise God that some of them have been restrained from doing what they would like to do to George and his ilk.  These victims have enough to deal with without having those closest to them in jail for murder. The men I know are men in the finest sense. They are desperately trying to overcome evil with good. They are trying to rebuild their own smashed houses. They don't need rocks lobbed from the rest of us. They need much prayer, only love, and heaps of leniency.

Wendy Hinman

I always wonder when people say that I smack of the worst Assembly behavior.  In my opinion, the worst of the Assembly was allowing one's conscience to be seared, and slandering those who spoke the truth.  This Assembly behavior is what allowed George to do what he did all those years.

If telling the truth means I am called a rock-lobber.....no problem.  I was excommunicated for the speaking up before.  

The fact is that if George's victims would say something it would make a diferrence.  Ask Rachel.  Do you think it was hard for her to say what she said?

It took courage and faith, and Rachel was not a willing participant in George's abuse, she was an innocent child.  She is a true victim, yet she had the courage to come forward, when others would not.  If she hadn't, George's women would still be attending worker's meetings!!

As for these others, while I fully recognize the horror, coercion and abuse that devastated and robbed them, the fact is that they are still repsonsible to some degree.

Read the passages in the Old Testament that talk about the different degrees of culpability if the woman "cries out," or not.

I am sorry this isn't popular, and I know this won't win me many friends among ex-assemblyites.  That's not why I'm here.

The fact remains, if we are going to complain about George still being out there, and say things like, "isn't someone going to stop him?" we must realize that those who can stop him aren't.

If they manage to rebuild their own smashed house, as you put it, but allow George to destroy another life by remaining silent, they are to be blamed, especially with the current climate, where their fear has been eliminated.

Brent

Yes, it is hard to be called a liar, isn't it?  Perhaps we can just pause for a moment here and consider how painful that is.  YOu finally have the courage to say what you could never say because you knew no one would believe you and then...Liar Liar! is what you get in return.  Recently, I did some more confronting in the form of a letter to a former leading brother here in Estevan.  I'll post it

Dear Garnet and Margaret,

   I’ve put off this letter far too long.  There are some things I need to tell you.
I’m of a bad conscience holding this information back.  My concern is that the
mindset of George Geftakys is still infecting Estevan, dividing and wounding people.
Though I’ve been away from the assembly many years, I am still navigating my way
through the twisted teachings and sorting out, keeping what is true.

   Garnet, when we spoke and you said “If I’ve offended you in any way...” I said
no, you hadn’t.  I am not offended by you.  But there are others that I think you need
to speak to.  My sister, for example, who lived in your home, was devastated many
times by the overwhelming control, emotional and ‘spiritual’ bullying that happened
to her continually while in the assembly.  I know that you factor heavily into that
equation.  Though many ‘meant well’ because they were ‘only standing for us’ as they
believed, they did the devil’s work.  Instead of edifying, they tore down, shamed and
stepped on others.  This happened to Suzanne.  Do you remember?
   
   I know that we have selective memories, that there are many things we said or
did in the assembly that we saw through a filter, George’s perspective.  I encourage
you to take a good look at those acts you did in the Lord’s name and service and ask
yourself: was this abuse?  I am writing to you now because I think you can receive it.
I was encouraged by our phone conversation and I believe it would help both you, my
sister, and others, if we all did some soul searching. And by soul searching, I do not at
all mean what George and Betty gave: “If you are offended, then I’m sorry you choose
to see things that way.” or Mike’s take on an apology (slightly different but still not
taking ownership): “I’m sorry for being influenced by George”.  I’m talking about
really owning our own actions.  I believe this is truly healing for all those affected.

   I have come to the place in my life where I see just what I did to my sister,
Suzanne.  I shut my ears up to her simply because she did not conform to assembly
ways.  I did not listen to her, refused to consider what she had to say.  She cried alone.
I waited for her repentance, not seeing she had been wronged.  We told people that
because they left the assembly, they left the Lord.  What right did we have to say that?
When people buckled under the unreasonable pressures and bullying, we pushed them
out of our lives and wiped our hands, praying only for their ‘repentance’.  Have we
repented for what we did to them.  And me too, I held George’s assembly (that idol
that took the place of God and determined God’s will in my life) and it’s instruction,
over my love for my own sister.  I basically called her a liar.  When she sought
fellowship with God and his people and was continually crushed instead by the
assembly who pointed only to her ‘deficits’ as a Christian, she gave up.  She was
labeled ‘fallen away’ she was crippled, shunned, written off.  And that was the love of
God?  And I, thinking myself more spiritual because I turned my back on her, shut my
ears to her, added to her pain.  How was this the Love of Christ manifest?  How was
this spiritual.  Suzanne I use as an example.  We know how many others who were
treated just as shamefully.

   George’s teaching has done much to separate families and devastate
individuals.  He was a bully.  Mike Zach towed George’s line and so here in Estevan
there are casualties too, besides my sister.  I’ll name Cara and Brian Daae. How were
they loved, built up, encouraged?  Or were they instead put down, blamed, shamed?
Is your conscience at all pricked? No, sure, according to George, if they’d only
submitted they’d have been fine.  But, as I learned the hard way, George wanted us
not just submitting to God, but to George, to absolute control to George and his mind,
not God’s love.  George, who set himself in the place of God, our barrier, anti-Christ
is still circulating in our veins.  George taught us to point at darkness and cruelty and
call it ‘Standing for the Lord’, to call it: light. You can’t spend that many hours
listening to tape ministry and to one another spouting George’s understanding and
claim, as some dare to claim: we weren’t influenced all that much by George here.
That is blindness. And as George would have advised, many people stay off the
assembly reflections website because they yet hold unquestioned allegiance to George
and his assembly machine.  Or perhaps, leaders we respected tell us to stay off that
site because there, they too are shown in all their false righteousness, and they’d
rather that we not see it.  I challenge that kind of thinking.  My story, which you have
never heard, is told on the website. You have never heard it, because when I tried to
come back to the assembly, I knew you would never receive it.  So I did not tell it.
Now, it’s posted, if you can receive it.  It’s the truth.  I’ve posted it for all to read,
shameful as it is.  I hide nothing.
   So many now accept that ‘George fell’ but have not yet questioned what
George taught.  I have sorted out a few things in that regard.  I don’t claim to know
very much, but I know this much: there is a strong tendency among many assembly
sympathizers to conclude: yes, perhaps George sinned (a little) but all that he taught is
still valuable.  There hasn’t been a halt and consider what exactly George taught.
How many are still implementing his teachings in their own lives?  How dangerous
this is.  George viewed all the world through a little pinhole and told us to do the
same.  We were not to consider ‘outside’ opinions.  We were to stay off the Internet
because (perhaps since George didn’t post there) it was probably all lies, we were
told.  The devil’s work.  But I challenge this kind of thinking.  After all, whose work
was George doing?  A veil has been separating good intentioned Christians from
God’s love and understanding for a terribly long time.  Now that George is gone, it all
depends on what side of the veil you’re on, or how much of the veil you’ve
swallowed, or how much permanent damage has been done to your perception, your
‘heavenly vision’ as George liked to put it.  What do you think his ‘heavenly vision’
really was?  The veil is of the mind.  The darkness and deceit is a way of thinking.
Please challenge George’s thinking in your own mind.
    Also, I have concluded, for those who gained some sense of status from
George’s hierarchy, i.e.: leadership position, it is much harder to really see how
damaging George’s teachings are.  Those who were workers, who had so many
opportunities already to have their consciences seared, are especially reluctant to
relinquish the teachings.  But the teachings may be summarized in this: the
annihilation of the individual, the erasure of the personality, replaced with assembly
speak, brain shut off, robotics.  Question nothing. George laid a claim to godliness but
denied the power of God, indeed, denied God’s spirit an opportunity to work.  Instead,
the assembly leaders established their own power, over others.  And to consider that
this may be repeated in Estevan is very sad to me.
   I am at peace with God, with my own conscience.  I make no great claims to
be anything spiritual.  I do not tell great stories as George did about how demon
possessed people shrank before him or how godly his children were, indeed in his
own family, when unspeakable abuse went on right under his own nose, the helpless
were told to submit to it.  The abused were told that it was because of their own sins
that their abusers were driven by God to punish them.   We deny the truth because we
do not wish to hear it, and we remain dirty ourselves. Do you see this?
    I am searching the scriptures now for what God says, and seeing that George
twisted scripture for his own gain.  I just believe God.  I just trust that God will heal
those maimed and wounded by the abusive structure George established.  Please
consider what I have written.   If you should like to discuss it, my email is
crocusqueen@hotmail.com.  If you wish to ignore me, or take offense at what I’ve
written, please consider that those who love God’s law (which is love) have great
peace and nothing shall offend them.  I am in love with that law, its unconditional
kindness to me.  And please believe me when I say, that toward both of you I extend
that same unconditional kindness.  Let us wash our hands.  Many can heal when we
acknowledge our part in the wounds that have been inflicted.  Perhaps the confessor
heals most.


May God heal you,


Delila


 - we don’t know what we shall be
 but we know we shall be like him
 for we shall see him as he is



-there is a crack, a crack in everything
that’s how the light gets in
that’s how the light gets in
that’s how the light gets in (L. Cohen)

I hate to see this come to the head that it is, but if people are going to be put in the situation that Kimberly is about to face then so be it.

How are these people "victims"?  It is the countless hundreds that were allowed to stay and be stumbled by some of the teaching of this ministry that are victims.  Ask yourself would you haved stayed in a place if it was know that the "leader" was having sexual relations with multiple women?

Brent is right these women have some fault in this whole matter.  It does not take a seasoned Christian to know that the bible say a TON about sexual acts and who and who should not do them.  Amazing that some of you who would hide and stand behind these women for not coming foward and admitting their sin are the same that took not only Clinton but Monica to task as well for her part.

Having had my Mom be in the same position as these women, but not givng, and also letting others know, you can see why I do not have much respect for what they did not do in coming forward at least, if not say NO and coming forward.

Lord Bless,
G

Brent is correct. I remember in the very first email I ever sent to him in Dec of 2002 after discovering this website, I warned Brent that the current leadership crisis in the Assembly was not the first.

I detailed some of the things that happened in the Midwest in the 80's and reminded him of the time Steve Irons and other left. I said, "George and his cronies will hunker down and begin the long process of rebuilding."

Brent's response was actually skeptical at the time. He expected the floodgates to open and the Assembly to be totally destroyed.

While it certainly took a huge hit, the Assembly is alive and well and will continue to grow. That is because the women who admitted to their adultery with George did so privately. This allowed George to concoct an alternate tale. If they had come forward publicly he would not have been able to do this.

Face it, this should have ended 30 years ago. The first woman he was with could have ended it. And the second. And the third.

All the brothers (Leading, Worker, Doorkeepers, and otherwise) who knew of David G's abuse over the past 30 years could have ended it or at least started the ball rolling.

Just think about that. Think about all the people who have been hurt, abused, taken advantage of and misguided over the last 30 years. Why? BECAUSE NO ONE SPOKE UP WHEN THEY HAD THE CHANCE.

If I had something to say that could bring down this ministry and I did not say it, then IMO I would be somewhat responsible for the people who are going to be abused by it in the future.

A BIG difference between now and then is that there are now those who have gone before. Judy and Rachel broke the Code of Silence. Being the second or third person to speak out does not take half the courage it takes to be the first to speak out. No one needs to fear being shunned or abused by GG or the leadership.

I'm not saying it's an easy thing or that I even have any idea how difficult it is. But it doesn't matter.

What happens in 10 years when someone who is abused by San Francisco leadership is screaming in pain, "Why didn't someone do something!"

What if you're only answer to that is, "Sorry, but it would have caused me grief and pain to stand up. Guess you'll just have to deal with it like the rest of us."

Scott

Soctt, are you trying to say that the watch people on the towers did not warn the city and therefore the blood/damage is upon them as well?

Cheers,
G

Yes!  I think all of us know this passage, but so many ex-assembly people still see themselves as being holy and enlightened.  This false perception of who they are and what they were involved in leads them to believe that somehow "mercy and understanding," should be shown to the leaders, and that the women who committed immorality with George should be excused from having to say or do anything.

Nonsense!  This is false, and totally wrong.

Let's put it this way.  I committed immorality with my girlfriend, now my wife.  I came forward, confessed it to the "brothers," and then Suzie and I stood up in a prayer meeting and confessed it to the whole Assembly, under the guidance of Tim Geftakys, Keith Walker and Jeff Lehmkuhl.  We were embarassed, but we were ashamed that we had tarnished the "testimony."

Well, look who has tarnished the testimony now, and notice how they keep totally silent about it.  Lehmkuhl has been attending "Seminars," with SF and Sacramento.  He is now in with Testa.  I may have more to say about him in the future.

Yes, they are rebuilding, and the women who willingly participatedin sexual immorality with George, along with Judy (a different matter) are in a position to stop him.  One of them told me that they reason she didn't do anything was because it was too painful to admit her own immorality!

I guess that fact that another woman was seduced and abused as a result of her silence is no big deal.  Is the other victim's pain not that important?

It's like this:

If my wife sees an OB/GYN, and the guy abuses her (totally rhetorical here folks) and she continues to go back to him, refers her friends, and says nothing....what kind of person is she?  Maybe she doesn't think it's too big of a deal, but many women would be hurt by being sexually abused by their doctor.  

In the case of The Assembly,  George didn't drug these women, or chain them up.  He manipulated and seduced them in a devilish manner.  They were willing victims of abuse.  He bears by far the most blame, but they are still responsible, because they didn't cry out.  That's what the Bible says folks.  I didn't write it.  Did you all catch that, I used the word "willing," and the word "victim."  

Worse yet,  they sat in his stupid seminars and said "Amen," for years, and taught other young women to comply with the ministry, etc.  They knew the truth, but played along that George was The Lord's Servant.  

I don't care if they don't like me, and I don't care in the least if recently ex-assembly leaders accuse me of having "the worst Assembly behavior."  I submit that their moral and spiritual compass is totally broken.  What did they do except walk out when the building began to shake?

Seriously, this thinking is proof that not only have many people not "moved on," but they are actually going back, whether they care to admit it or not.

If you knew something was wrong, like theft, adultery, physical abuse, etc....and did nothing, YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE AND CULPABLE.

It's a bitter pill, but you reap what you sow.

Brent

Hello Everyone!

   Please pardon me for jumping into this discussion, as I have not been involved on the BB for about a week, and may not fully understand the context of this discussion.
    This debate is very important for the former members of the Assembly, IMHO.
  There are those who constantly tell us that we need to "move on" and to "forgive" those who managed the abusive Assembly system.  These folks don't deny the abuses of the Assembly, but seek to dissuade active discovery of culpability of past unrepentant leaders.  One of their arguments is that "vengeance belongs to the Lord" and that we humans are unable to see into their hearts' and to judge motives.
   While both of the above assertions are undoubtedly true (that God will judge them and that we don't know their true motives) we are told to carefully "watch" and "judge" behavior and to make an open stand against evil.  
    This pursuit of truthfulness is the only way to be clear before God, and with one another, and as such is essential for the blessing of all concerned!
     Recently I received a phone call from a former leader in the Valley Assembly who said he wished to apologize for a couple of things he did when I was shown the door.  I tried to engage him in a discussion about his part in the abuses of the Valley assembly and he simply ignored these comments.  I followed up with an e-mail, and when he did not respond I tried to send another and discovered that he blocked any messages from me!
     Though I don't know Andrew Gunther's heart ( I feel free in sharing his name now, as he has refused my entreaties) I can judge his behavior, and as Mt. 18:17 states, I can declare him to be clearly out of the will of God.  Though I am to forgive my brother when he sins against me the above passage lays down conditons to bring about restoration between us; willingness to listen to the complaints of those offended and to acknowledge the wrong is essential to be clear before God and Brethren!
   I know very little about "GG's women", but can understand something of the dynamics that would allow them to stay silent and "willing", in re. to GG's use of them.  With great shame I can admit to raising faint protests against the coverup of a child molestation in the Assembly :-[ :'(!  When Tim McCarthy said, "after all any of us could have done it", all I could do was say "amen", when Mitch Schuster said to Tim, "speak for yourself Brother."
   I think their is a big difference between those of us who feel shame for our Assembly days failures vs. those who still refuse to face their past openly, honestly, and thoroughly and that we need to make a difference in how we treat these two different groups.  
    I think of the Woman taken in adultery (JN 8 ) and the lack of condemnation that Jesus gave to her.  It was the accusers who left one by one as Jesus wrote on the ground.  He seemed to understand, while she did sin and that she was told not to do it again, that this woman was a victim of a distorted view of how God views justice. (please understand that I don't think that Brent falls into the category of the Pharisees above.)
  The fact these "Women" came forward at all is a behavior that certainly must be viewed as positive.  Since I know little of these details I can not make a judgment, nor can we be assured if they publically shared all the details that this would effect those still following GG personally, or the system that he created.  These folks are in deep denial and have rejected any entreaties to consider their ways.
   Though we all share some responsibility for our Assembly involvement, and can not claim total victimization, it is important to make a difference between those on the path to clarity and those unwillingly to face the light.  It might be helpful for these women to get some therapy from a doctor who has a solid foundation in the Christian faith.  Jesus did not demand that the "Woman caught in adultery" share all the sordid details, and even was discreet in convicting the consciences of her accusers by stooping down to write them in the dirt so that only the individuals could see what was written.
   Jesus had compassion on this woman and recognized that she was in part a victim.  I think we need to recognize that "GG's women" were also victims and need to be treated as such.  Facing the truth for them is a very difficult and painful pursuit and emotionally it may be impossible for them to do more than they have already done.  Courage to act can only come when we are able to help former victims of the Assembly overcome their self doubt.  These Women have not been out that long and recovery for them is a process that will take some time and probably some professional help.
                                 God Bless,  Mark C.    

I thought it would be helpful to look at an excerpt of an article Brent submitted:
Honoring the Truth-teller, part 2
By Dr. Roger W. Sapp

Values Produce Predictable Behavior
Prior to 1993, I was an active duty Army Chaplain.  During that season
in my life, I taught leadership skills to officers and non-commissioned
officers in leadership retreats as a part of my ministry.  I often used
management games to teach these leaders about leadership.  In one
management game called "Powerplay", a scenario is created where these
leaders were arbitrarily divided into groups by virtue of winning in a
trading scenario.  The winning group is then given authority over the
other groups.  The winning group is given the right to make the rules
for future trading and to dictate these rules to the other groups.
Without exception, the group that has the authority always begins to
make rules to keep its authority and to benefit it as a group in
trading.  Given enough time the winning group will begin to clearly
abuse the other groups.  This group will justify its behavior on the
basis of winning the earlier portion of the game and by virtue of having
the authority.

Reactions of Different Abused Groups
In those retreats where non-commissioned officers (sergeants) were  
involved, the sergeants would allow themselves to be abused.  Their  
overriding value was loyalty to the authority no matter what transpired or  
how unfairly they were treated.  They were unhappy and grumbled  
among themselves during the abuse but did not do anything productive to  
deal with it.  They offered no feedback, no confrontation, and no truth  
from their perspective to the abusive group of sergeants.  This was  
characteristic of nearly all the sergeants that I played this game with.  
This revealed that their values were highly loyal but truthfulness was weak as a value. (Of course, there were a few exceptional sergeants that would  
have been better officers by nature.) The reactions of the officers in the  
officer leadership retreats were entirely different.  As the group of  
officers who abused them became more abusive, the officers became  
increasingly active and alert to their responsibility to deal with the unfair
situation.  They offered feedback that was largely ignored.  They devised  
strikes; in other words, they withdrew and would not cooperate with the  
abusive authority.  They often tried to continue to confront the abusive  
group.  They tried to negotiate a more just situation. In nearly all cases,  
the group in authority would become increasingly authoritarian and  
created more rules strictly for their own benefit and to keep the rebels in  
line.  The abusive group would often say that the other officer groups  
were not playing fair when they rebelled, withdrew or failed to cooperate.  
In other words, the group with the authority became blind to their abuse  
and blamed the abused groups for withdrawing and not wanting to play  
the game anymore.  

Not Valuing Truth Results in Blindness
Blindness is characteristic of organizations and leaders that do not value  
truthfulness in their relationships.  This is because truth telling has been
stifled in a loyalty-based organizations or individuals.  Because there is  
no honest feedback, they will often be blind to their abusive behavior and  
honestly wonder why others are reacting.  There will be no one to tell  
them that it is wrong to shift the blame for difficulties in the relationships
to the victims of their abusive behavior. The value of truth is what keeps a local church or any organization from becoming like a cult.  Honoring the  
truth-teller is a characteristic of godly relationships.  Dishonoring the  
truth-teller is a characteristic of cults. Cultic behavior, which always  
includes blindness, will result from an overemphasis of loyalty above the  
truth.  Leaders must understand that their own desire for loyalty may  
overcome truthfulness in their subordinates.  They must actively cultivate  
truthfulness along with loyalty in their subordinates.  

Different Values and Expectations
This game also revealed that different kinds of people have different  
values and expectations.  Commissioned Officers are taught in the  
military that proper submission means that they will speak to the superior  
officer with courage and candor (truthfulness) about organizational  
problems.  Officers who will not confront their commander when  
necessary are poor excuses for leaders. Commanders who will not hear  
the honest, truthful input of their subordinates without penalty are poor  
commanders.  The officer type of leader expects to be treated well by  
other leaders.  He expects his input to be valued and genuinely  
considered.  When the behavior of an organization and its primary  
leaders do not match the officer type leader’s values, he will withdraw or  
try negotiation.  If the negotiation fails, he will leave the organization and
move on, similar to an officer resigning his commission.  The officer type  
of leader will want to fix the organization’s larger problems and will not  
ordinarily be silent about them. If the organizational values lean too far to
loyalty and not enough on truthfulness, this type of leader will often be  
seen as not being a team player and be penalized by being privately  
labeled as such.  As a result the organization may lose this valuable  
leader as he discovers the truth of how the organization actually sees  
him.  The sergeant type of leader will remain loyal to a fault.  He will  
adjust to the problems and not necessary ever speak truthfully to the  
organization.  There is nothing wrong with this type of person; in fact,  
they are greatly needed in all organizations. However, in unhealthy  
organizations, the sergeant type of leader is valued above the officer type  
of leader.  The officer type of person can help an organization to deal  
with its problems and therefore grow.  If an organization creates an  
atmosphere for genuine honesty and truthfulness, it will attract many of  
the officer types of persons and will be able to keep them.  It will not lose
its sergeant types either. In fact, the sergeant type of leader will be much
happier since problems will be dealt with.  Loyal and truthful leaders will  
ensure that the Church will be prepared to meet the One who declared  
Himself to be the way, the truth, and the life.  

The final question is: Are you a sergeant or an officer?

Hi Mark,

While I agree with your post, I wonder if you read our private e-mails from one of the women, you would have written the same post.  The responce of the "women caught in adultery" is glaringly different from this woman, and I believe this is a different context altogether.

When she asked,"Why won't anyone speak for me?"  Brent kindly asked her to step up.  She refused because she didn't want to admit her own "sexual immorality".   I still believe Brent's previous post about the ob/gyn analogy is a better picture than "the woman caught in adultery."

Hi Suzie  :)

  I was a little hesitant to post at all because I am not aware of any details regarding "GG victimized women."
   The reason I did post was because of the continual discussion of excultists' concerning the thought of "victimization vs. my personal responsibility while in the group."
  How much "the Woman caught in adultery" accurately reflects the Assembly situation I don't know, but the principle that Jesus teaches in John 8 re. adultery might have some applications.  This woman did not "go public" but was hauled into the spotlight by the Pharisees and Jesus treated this woman with kindness and still used the situation to point to the greater evil of the Pharisaical religious system that "outed" this adulterer.
  My point is that we should make a difference, as Jesus did, in how we treat sinners; we must realize some sin is worse then other kinds and while we were all in the Assembly, and to some degree were involved in that evil, some are more culpable then others.  In other words, there are deceived and those that deceive; there are true believers and there those who used their positions to control innocent followers.  That line was not hard and fast and we crossed over from side to side, but at some point some of us saw it for what it was, or made the decision to stay with the Assembly and GG.  
   These women were victimized and since they were willing to some degree they undoubtedly are a confused psychological mess right now.  They are feeling great shame right now, (and here it differs from being a passive victim of abuse, as is the MD example) and not at all capable of public heroism.
 We need to honestly face our time in the Assembly, but we may have to do it in private therapy first.  Why was I willing to let GG have his way with me?  How could I continue in this group and believe that I was following God after this experience?  What do I think of my relationship with God now?  What do I think that He thinks of me now?  
   By making these women feel that the way to get present day followers of GG to reject GG and his teaching is for them to make their stories public I think is a mistaken notion.  Any followers of GG at this point are passed reasonable attempts to persuade them otherwise.  God himself, as Jesus, came to Earth and confronted those in religious darkness and they "stopped their ears and sought to kill Him!"  I think even if Jesus Himself visited the defenders of GG and his Assembly they would reject his entreaty.  Those that did respond at Brent's raising up of the website were straddling the line already and were able to hear, and those who continue to reject an honest evaulation of their past will get harder and harder.
   There may come a time when these women might feel strong enough to come forward and do this, but I am against trying to apply pressure to get them to do this if they don't feel able to.  We are not so different from these women as we willinginly allowed our spiritual abuse and they should know that God wants to lift the shame from them.
                                           God Bless,   Mark C.    

Hi, Mark,

I agree with that part. Just because I believe these women should come forward, doesn't mean I think we can or should make/force/coerce/pressure them to.

Nor should they think (or care) that I judge them harshly if they are not ready. Each of these individuals has their own unique situation and I would not presume to believe that I have any understanding of what they have gone through and are going through now.

I bet, however, that facing and dealing with this situation head-on would help them immensely. Confess it. Get it off your chest. Relieve yourself of your responsiblity to speak up. I would think that that would make it much easier to go forward with your life.

But that's just me and they will ultimately have to make their decision and live with it either way, just like everybody else.

S

I think many of you are still missing the point.

If you look back to when this thread started, a person wrote Others have said how terrible it is that George is preaching in Riverside, and that Sacramento and San Francisco are having "seminars,"----I don't know if George was there.

Well, I agree.  It is terrible.  However, if people just sit around and complain and never do anything about it, they have no right to complain at all.  

Rachel told her story and it had a huge impact.  She felt responsible because she didn't want others to grow up with the pain and misery that she endured, and she knew full well that the kids behind her in the gathering were suffering the same way she did.  She could no longer stifle the truth in her mind and allow people to worship her father and grandfather under guise of worshipping God.

So, she did something.  She broke the Code of Silence and told the truth out loud.  It was a nuclear bomb.

The "women," the ones that are alluded to in George's excommunication letter, were abused as badly, and probably worse than Rachel.  However, the difference is that Rachel suffered as a dependant minor child, while these women suffered as adults.  

As a man, I am warned to be careful that I don't become enticed by an adulterous woman.  Should I become slightly drunk, at a Chiropractic Seminar, and find a connection with a female doctor there, who entices me to sin,  we are both responsible...at least that's how I see it.  (suzie accompanies me to my seminars)

George is disgusting in that he took people with pure motives and manipulated and brainwashed them into "serving" him.  Afterall, didn't David, King of Israel have weaknesses?  David was a man after God's heart.  How similiar he is to Brother George!  George is the Lord's Servant, afterall, he's not perfect.....right?

The man should be in jail, and the people that could put him there would have an extremely hard time doing so for several reasons.  Certainly, the defense would argue that since the relationship was ongoing for several years IT WAS CONSENSUAL!  There are other legal difficulties as well.  

So, if they can't put him in Jail,  it is my firm opinion that they at least warn others who might fill their shoes in the future.  Sadly, this is exactly what happened.  One woman would leave, or move to another Assembly, or marry, and a new one would come along, with no inkling of what they were in store for.

If these women want to keep silent, that is their perogative.  However, they shouldn't complain about George still preaching and say,  "Isn't someone going to do something?"

The man was put out for adultery!  That takes two, as Jesus pointed out.  The Pharisees wanted to stone the woman, but ignored doing any justice on the man, because they were pharisees,  blind followers of blind guides.

In the Assembly, everyone wants to see justice done on George, but somehow we think that the other party is guiltless and should be given spiritual "there-there's".  

Well I'm sorry, the key to George's justice lies with the other half of the excommunication letter.  

To quote Wayne Mathews below,  I am an officer type.  I will never, ever keep silent about something important like this, and I won't mince words about the truth either.

I don't care if it makes people uncomfortable.  In fact, it should do exactly that.  Guess what?  If George thought that one of these women agreed with me he would be the one who was supremely uncomfortable.  Instead,  people who were saying "Amen, Praise the Lord" to George's preaching 18 months ago are trying to tell me what is Godly!

I mock them and laugh at them!  Yes, I also love them, which is precisely why I am willing to speak up.

Feel free to condemn me and berate me.  Just know that I wear it as a badge of honor in this matter.  

Have I become your enemy because I tell you the truth?

Brent

I'm I getting this?

If.... then.....

If these women and everyone who knows about abuse in the assembly comes forward and stands by the truth (providing that all consciences are still ticking)

Then... George can finally be dethroned and Christ can have his place, captives free, etc. etc.

I get the notion that in all this commotion we think we can free people.  How many times in the assembly, refering to the gospel, did I hear: "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

Having been once so in love with the fairy tale of the assembly, I know only too well how my own conscience was 'buggered'.  We can jump up and down and call on who ever we want to do 'the right thing' but that changes nothing.  There was no website when I left.  And though I found much liberty in the truths sorted here, it wasn't a single person here who set me free.  It was God.  And if any part of George's house is yet standing a year from now... it will be because God hasn't yet decided to completely crush it.  There are those within assembly gates with consciences too 'buggered' to get out.  Those also, still in love with the fairy tale George twisted the bible to preach... who are blindly read.  And Brent, though this does a number on your blood pressure.... God is still in control.  I believe that, though I see assembly wrongs all around me that are not yet righted.  God is in control.
delila

I understood Brent's original point to be that though many say that GG and his machine need to be stopped, they are too cowardly and lazy to do anything about it.

Mark, I wonder at the woman caught in adultery, whom the Lord Jesus let off with 'go and sin no more'.  Would she have willingly told her story to right a wrong that continues to keep some GeftakysServants in bondage?  Everybody knew who she was anyway?  The woman who is unwilling to say so may not have truly repented from her unrighteous and unlawful deed(s).  But I am not one to pressure anyone to do something they do not want to do, however, why would they not want to.  Also, there are many ex-LBs and ex-wannabees who have conveniently slipped out of the picture and have not made any effort to right the wrongs they 'faithfully' perpetrated while serving Geftakys.

On the other hand, very few who remain assembly-sympathetic at this point are victims, but rather they are so by their own choice.  They have had over 1 year to search and honestly inquire; they have had people attempting to dialogue with them on the matter, but they turn a deaf ear.  They are content to remain in their fog of deception and their friendships and their pride (unwilling to admit that they were wrong). They have accumulated for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires(2Tim 4:3).  Like Delila posted earlier, they have said things like 'some things were wrong' but have not owned their sin and confessed it.

So, even if the adulterous women enlightened those who remain assembly-sympathetic, would they, the assembly-sympathisers finally see it, or would they say yeah but... that was then and this is now. ??  I had a similar experience on another matter recently, and was amazed at the unwillingness of individuals to face the reality of the 'truth of the matter'.  I have some understanding, after that experience, why the Geftakys ministry continued as long as it did, and why people continue to remain asleep long after they have received their 'wake-up' call.

Lord bless,
Marcia

 Brent and Others gathered around this topic!

   Brent, you know much more about these Women than I do, and as Scott said, it could be very helpful to them if they did just bring their whole situation out into the light.  Not knowing them or their story prevents me from knowing if they are able to take on such a task as yet.  What I'm concerned about is "outing" them before they are ready to make that decison on their own.
  It is difficult for us to understand how an abuser can control someone for so many years without them just saying, "I've had enough" and then just leave the situation.  How can we understand one of these women letting GG have his way with them and just continuing on "faithful" to the code of silence in support of GG as God's servant?!  It takes a great deal of brainwashing to manipulate someone into accepting trysts with GG on Saturday evening and saying amen to his preaching on Sunday!
  Mind control is a very real thing and it does very real damage to our psyche.  It has the ability to take some very sincere and normal people and turn them into followers of David Koresh, et al.  We can say that only the weak minded are suceptible to this kind of manipulation, but it is more likely an emotional need that sets the stage for this kind of cultish abuse.  
   These women were deceived and seduced by GG to willingly accept his advances, but it does not necessarily mean that it was "consenual".  It took years of GG and Betty calling evil good and good evil to condition these women to accept GG the philanderer as still God's servant.
   On another BB I was on I had some communication with former members of a group from hell called The children of God.  This group practiced molestation of children at the direction of the head honcho, Moses David, in the name of God!! :'( These former members talked about how they were able to justify this activity and to defend it from the Bible.  They so believed that God had called this great evil monster to lead them that they trusted it was God's direction.  How can the conscience be so overpowered and silenced in an individual that they believe doing evil is serving God?!
   Imagine trying to bring such an individual back to any belief in God, and a healthy normal life!  Once they leave they feel like they are defective in some kind of way and that there is no escape from the pain and confusion that they feel.  These former cult members were taken captive, in an psychological sense, and through fear of disobeying God gave their leaders control over their lives.  Sound familar?
  Since I know nothing of these Assembly women I can only guess that they need to see that God is very angry with GG for his stumbling of these women and that He, as with the woman caught in adultery, is not condemning them.  It would be very valuable to others if they could come on the BB and tell us how GG was able to bring them to the point that he did.  Rachel was able to tell her story when she realized that she was in the right and her Dad and the Assembly were wrong.  When I first left I cowered in fear and would never have said "negative" things about the brethren.  There were those who gently strengthened me so that I was able to get my feet again and to speak out against the Assembly.
   It is good to speak the truth loudly, but we can only do that with a strong conscience and a healthy view of ourselves as well.  This will take time for those who have been brainwashed by G.G. and have compromised their own moral compass as a result.  The enemy here is not GG's victims but GG and his defenders.
                                      God Bless,   Mark C,      

 

Mark, I kind of see what your are saying in regards to the "cult" people that you talked to.  My question though is this, even though their leader justified their own evil, did they ever speak evil or condem others who did the same thing?

There are multiple times that not only LBs but George talked bad about leaders in other places that commited sexual sins (i.e., David Hockings, etc.).  That being the case people could see that these sins were wrong.  The bible is so clear on these issues and I never heard it preached at one time that sex outside of marriage is ok in the Assembly let only read it in the word.  

I admit I do not know what I would do if I was one of these women, on one had the tremedous guilt that I let people continue in this ministry knowing what was going on, yet on the other hand I would pray that the thought of standing before God with all this on my heart, mind, and soul would cause me to fall on my face before a God who loves me and cares me, and is willing to forgive me no matter what ANYONE may say.

Is your all on the alter of scarfice laid?

Peace
G

Folks,

Regarding the idea that GG would be "brought down" if the women who were involved with him would just come forward...I'm not so sure.

GG was disciplined by a Plymouth Brethren assembly many years ago.  I believe that what happened was that the woman admitted the adultry, and GG stubbornly denied it.

There was even a confrontation between GG and the offended husband.  

I heard part of the story from GG himself, (with no admission of guilt, of course, he claimed he had been wronged), and part of it from a couple of other people who were close enough to observe some of the events.

I think that this is why GG was never recognized as an elder in the PB assemblies.

Nevertheless, GG was able to escape from the most serious consequences by persisting in his denials...and after a few years some assemblies began receiving ministry from him again.

Now he is doing it again.  It worked in the past.  He is counting on the fact that some people will follow him in spite of everything.  

Sadly, I suspect that he is right.

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

Yes, you are quite right.

Actually, this fact is what keeps my blood pressure under control.  That is why I say, like Caleb,  "let us go up, for we are well able to defeat them." Not his exact words, but similiar.

Brent

Of course no one can know for sure until it happens. I don't think that relieves anyone of their responsibility to try.

Besides, at 76 years old, a setback could be just as fatal to George's ministry as a killing blow.

S

Hi Tom,

Yes, George was disciplined for the same behavior a few times in his PB and pre-PB days.  The reason he was able to get away with it is because the PB guys basically said, "Well, George is a bad guy and we don't want him around.  However, what anyone does is their own business.  We aren't going to trouble ourselves about it, but if anyone calls us about him, we'll give vague references that suggest that he may have done something wrong.  However, the best course for us is to not rock the boat too much."

In the Assembly, we learned to excuse his arrogance and abusive tactics by reminding ourselves that God chose Him for a special ministry, namely a Testimony to Jesus.  The cultists in the SF ASsembly are referring to themselves as being the Remnant.  I guess they are the remnant of the remnant, which means they are extra special.

George is escaping the temporal consequences of his actions for one reason only; no one is holding him accountable.

This is not an attack on his victims, neither is it speech designed to berate anyone, it is a simple statement of fact.  George defiled and destroyed several women, and countless of his followers.  He has offended God's little lambs hundreds of times, and will have a millstone the size of Mt. Rushmore hung around his neck.  

Nevertheless the fact remains that he is getting away with it because those that can speak up aren't doing so.

I am not going to "out" these women.  I never intended to do so, and will not be changing my mind in the future.

It is up to them, whether or not they will speak out or not.

Again, my whole point in this discussion is that those who complain against George's rebuilding are for the most part only complaining, and are doing little or nothing else.  George is not going to be held accountable by private conversations and sincere expressions of hope and prayer sent via email and phone calls.  It didn't work before and it won't work now.

However, my frustration is that I do know what will work, but I am not the one to do it.

This is merely a suggestion.

There are several ex-leaders who are on this BB..  From what I can gather, they have been very clear about George and his ministry, and have been willing to speak the truth one on one, to people who will listen.

However, they haven't made much of a public apology for what they were involved in.  Remember all those LB and Worker's meetings?  Remember all the horrible things that were said, and the even worse actions that were done as a result?

The nature of the ministry was such that LB's and Workers knew what guys like Testa, McCallister, and Tim were like, and what they said in private to manipulate situations.  These things need to be exposed and brought to light.  The website is the place to do it.  This would be a huge, gigantic help.  For example, I cite Kirk C's writings.  They allowed people in SLO to actually believe what I was saying, because before Kirk wrote, the SLO people just repeated the mantra,  "Brent is a liar.  It is the Enemy's voice.  Brent is a liar. It is the Enemy's voice."

Perhaps someone in San Francisco will read the story of a former LB from San Diego,  a person they once repsected, and upon realizing the machinations done by Testa, will begin to break free.

Perhaps, people, upon reading the story of one of George's sexual victims, will have the lights turn on, and will realize that the victims told the leaders, and the leaders ignored them in order to protect their own pathetic little fiefdoms.

Even better, perhaps their stories will reveal that some of the little George's have been emulating their master in more ways than manner of speech and abusive control.  Perhaps some of them have had some "counseling," with sisters that is innapropriate.  There is every reason to suspect that if it hasn't happened already, it will happen in the future.  These people are predictable, after all.

Like Mark said below, Child Molestation was covered up in the SF Valley.  Could it have occured elsewhere?  Of course!  The whole thing is sick, and full of sick people.

Here is the blueprint for an Atomic Bomb.

My name is ___________

I am one of the women who was involved in an improper sexual relationship with George Geftakys.

Without going into great detail, here are the facts___________________.

I didn't say anything until  ---/---/---, because I am a victim of what is called Clergy Abuse.  Although I wanted to sue him, I can't because of ____________.

I am telling my story so that this doesn't happen again, and someone else doesn't have to experience the pain that I am.  

Not only George, but these other followers of his are also  predators.  (Testa, McCallister, perhaps some others)  I told them what happened, and they heard from the people who excommunicated George what happened, but they won't hear it.  They act exactly like George, which is frightening, because George is like this________.

I want to do everything I can to get people away from this cult,  and see those that are involved break free.

---

Again, this is a blueprint.  Others have the plutonium, I don't.  But I do know how to make the bomb.  

Those that remain in the Assembly, and those who are drifting back into it, Like Jeff Lehmkuhl, are repeating the Mantra,  "The stuff on the website is mostly lies.  That is not God's way.  We never followed George.  Those that left were following a man, but we were following Christ." "The stuff on the website is mostly lies.  That is not God's way.  We never followed George.  Those that left were following a man, but we were following Christ."  "The stuff on the website is mostly lies.  That is not God's way.  We never followed George.  Those that left were following a man, but we were following Christ."  "The stuff on the website is mostly lies.  That is not God's way.  We never followed George.  Those that left were following a man, but we were following Christ."

Again, I am not coercing or trying to force someone to do something they aren't ready for.  I am merely stating the facts of why George is still at it, and why his sychophants are still at it.  Those that can do something aren't.

Their reasons for not doing so are their own.

Brent

Could you imagine if the internet was available at this time for these "disgrunted ex-members" to use, many future members would have never given George the time of day because his credability would be called into question.

I wish George could have been exposed decades ago

Good Sunday Morning! :)

    My point is not "what" these women should do, we all agree that it would be great if they could stand up and tell their story (for them and for others), but are they able to do so.
    As an example of what I mean:  Some people have an unreasonable fear of flying (a phobia).  We, who don't have this terror of flying, can despise these folks for reacting in such an unreasonable manner and tell them to "just face their fear and 'overcome' it! ( I use that word "overcome" with intent to draw my Assembly analogy ;))  Such individuals have an overwhelming emotional reaction that prevents them from involvement in flying as sure as if we physically imprisoned them from getting on the plane!  Coach John Madden still takes the train on all his travels in the U.S.A., because of the high level of anxiety he experiences while flying; it prevents him from flying!
   One thing Christians often forget and that is we are human, though redeemed.  In Rom. 7 Paul discusses the inner conflict he experienced as a believer where he knows what is right to do, but found that he often did what was wrong anyway.  He said there was a "law in his members" (a principle within his humanity) that held him captive.
  GG, and cult leaders, were very profficient at taking advantage of the above human weakness and manipulating individuals into doing things that they never would have done on their own.  I suffered from great anxiety when I left the Assembly (nightmares, a feeling of impending doom, etc.), as for 20 years my mind was controlled via the false holiness message of GG and the belief that the Assembly was "God's govt. on Earth."
   After leaving I began to understand that what I was taught was wrong, but GG and the Assembly still controlled me via the unreasonable phobia I felt.  It still affects me to this day (12 years later) where I have difficulty in interacting socially with other Christians.  I feel much more comfort from just staying at home and avoiding my anticipation of anxiety that comes from going to church.
  I am reminded of the discussion we had on depression a while back where several sufferers of this condition helped us to understand a feeling that controlled them and why someone couldn't counsel a depressed person out of that feeling that mastered their attitudes and behaviors.  These depressed individuals were literally in a prison, not of their own making, but often those who don't suffer from this can't understand why, because we don't see the bars that hold them.
  Marcia's question for me, re. the woman caught in adultery and some post GG Assemblyites:  We do have to make some distinctions between "these women" whom I consider victims of GG's brainwashing vs. former leading brothers who still seek to defend GG's evil empire (in part or whole).  There are some of these former leaders who may seem very weak in their stand against GG and his teaching, but have made small steps in the right direction.  These we must gently encourage and seek to help.  There are others who are headed in the opposite direction who refuse to discuss these things.  We must be very straightforward and clear with both of these kinds of individuals (Brent's point ,and a very good one, and which has been a great help to me and to many others), but we want to help those taking the small steps in the right direction to overcome their overwhelming reluctance to face their unreasonable fears/weakness.
   Eventually, those that seek therapy for phobias will have to get on a plane and face their fear, but it usually takes outside help and time to bring an individual to make the right decision.  Jesus understood the social/human dynamics between the false religious leaders and the Woman caught in adultery.  He called her act sin, but did not condemn her; while he did bring condemnation upon those that hauled the women in to receive "justice."  When we recognize that Jesus understands our sinful and weak humanity, and went to the cross for just that purpose, we discover the way to inner moral strength (the kind of strength that acts courageously in the face of our fears) is not by trying to find the will to conquer our humanity, but the humble acceptance that we are just as human as the guy on the bus next to us--- because we are saved does not mean we escape from who we are, in all our predispositions and learned habits.
 Though I am not saying that the Christian life is a futile passivity in the face of my inevitable fallen state.  The Bible teaches that we are to fight against the sin in us, but we need to find a place of strength in which to make that stand.  To the former Assemblyite they have had the rug pulled out from under them and there is little to no understanding of the Gospel and the nature of the Christian life as lived under grace.  They know all of these phrases, i.e. grace, the love of God, etc., but see (and feel) these things as they understood them from GG.
   It would seem that the story of JN 8 illustrates that all humanity is weak and sinful, but that there are those who find salvation when confronted with their sin and those who find condemnation.  There will be those who leave the Assembly who will find mercy and grace to face their sin/weakness/deception, and those who reject the light of truth and stay in a state of denial.  For the former we need to strengthen them in the knowledge of "no condemnation in Christ" and to the latter clearly and publically announce that they are walking in darkness. (Jude 1:22-23)
                                   God Bless,  Mark C.  

 

Does this sound familiar?

"Church records have revealed stories of many other repeat abusers, including priests who traded drugs for sex with minors, fathered children, and physically assaulted their victims. In the case of almost every predator priest, church officials had reports of abusive behavior, but allowed the priests to remain in ministry, documents show. In many cases, accused priests were sent for brief periods of psychological evaluation, then returned to parishes -- where they abused again."

Here is the source:

http://www.boston.com/globe/spotlight/abuse/predators/

The situation is not exactly the same but the PATTERN OF ABUSE is universal.

S

My advice is that we stop this discussion right now.

We have no proof that there are any women.  

Whether they exist at all is debateable.  If they won't talk, we haven't a leg to stand on.  This is all the worst sort of hearsay.

Seriously, this just dawned on me today.  We have no proof at all that there ever were any women.  

I won't be saying another word about this.

Brent

And Bathsheba's first child by King David was really conceived by immaculate conception. Seriously.  ;)