AssemblyBoard

Verne,

Your question - "Does the Bible teach unconditional forgiveness?"

Answer - Yes.

In my opinion, it does teach unconditional forgiveness. Nothing I've read so far convinces me to the contrary. If this is an error I can't see how - scripturally or otherwise. Feel free to help me. However, if I'm on the wrong side, it appears to be the safer wrong side.  

Again, how can I not forgive anyone at anytime in light of my own sin? - Including "A Judas." Forgiveness, however, doesn't mean I'm indifferent - issues of discipline, warnings, judgement, severe actions are necessary. Point is - I'm not Jesus. When Jesus broke the news about a betrayer each disciple looked to himself and was afraid "Could be me!" Judas do I forgive him? It's irrelevant I impute nothing to Judas. He didn't betray me - he betrayed the Lord. I see him and I fear it could have been me - who knows I probably would have been worse - I may have kept the money and not had the decency to hang myself.  The difference between Judas and Peter, one can argue, is only context - One was the confessor to the Son of God and the other was the son of perdition - Judas betrayed Christ, Peter denied Him.

George needs to be judged and we Christians need to participate in his discipline and "judgment"...But, our role in judging the world is yet future.  Do I forgive George for what he did to my family?  Yes, and I pity him - poor slob.  Is he right with God and man - No! But, because I have forgiven him - I may be one step ahead of some who still struggle with fits of bitterness - and that's where unforgiveness goes.  In fact, I think those who have "forgiven the guilty" are the very ones qualified to distribute the justice - If the Lord sees fit.

"Does the Bible teach unconditional forgiveness?" ...Yes.

I tell you therefore, all sins and slanders are forgivable for men, but slander about the  Spirit will not be forgiven. If one should speak a word against the Son of Man he may be forgiven, but if he speaks against the Holy Spirit it will not be forgiven him either in this age or in the age to come
Matthew 12:31-32

Please be careful of trying to invoke any argument that suggests God's standard for forgiveness is different from what He expects of us - that is not a tenable position(Ephesians 4:32).
If you contend that the Bible teaches unconditional forgiveness, we have to throw out Matthew 12:31-32
My aforementioned uncertainty of course has to do with what exactly constitutes slander against the Holy Spirit. I have some personal musings about this some of which I shared on the "Convincing Counterfeit" thread on the other BB but I don't want to be dogmatic. Your position would have us believe that while that is one sin God explicitly states He will never extend forgiveness for, the we on the other hand would be required to do so...
Verne

Verne, not being God, I don't know when someone has blasphemed the Holy Spirit.  

So, as far as others are concerned I forgive all men at all times for all things.

I certainly understand that and ergo my own uncertainty on the matter( there are some very big hints in Scripture though*). Nonetheless the point remains that unconditional and/or universal forgiveness is not taught by the Scripture.
Verne

* The instructions in Exodus 30:22-38 regarding the apothecary ointment and attendant warnings are in my view quite instructive...

Verne,

Unconditional forgiveness is demonstrated by the Scripture...Our lives are proof!  

Now we need to go out and do the same.  Let's not get complicated.  This truth doesn't hang on a scripture in Exodus 30.

Your Pal...Chuck

Was our forgiveness really unconditional though Chuck?
Would we have been forgiven had we not repented of our sin?

If we confess our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins... 1 John 1:9

Your Pal,
Verne  :)

Verne,

I can't speak for you...But, when I knew God loved me unconditionally even while I was yet wallowing in the midst of sin I repented and broke before God.  His forgiveness provoked my repentence, not the other way around.

That's what grace does, that's what it is.

His grace and forgiveness is what brought me around.  I certainly didn't earn it.

His love and forgiveness were unconditional - He knew what I was and loved me anyway. Amazing!  Amazing Grace!

Now we get to go out and do the same.

::c:v::

Chuck I completely agree. His love for us is indeed unconditional- His forgiveness was not. (Now we are starting to get to the meat of the matter!). Before you repented, even though you were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, the fact is that you were an object of God's indignation!

You too were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once conducted yourselves in line with the ways of this world system, controlled by the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit of the one now working in disobedient people...and by nature were the objects pf God's indignation as were all the rest of mankind.
Ephesians 2:1-3

With regard to the Exodus Thirty reference, have you noticed how God reserves His wrath for those who engage in counterfeiting? (eg. George Geftakys). Judas was a counterfeit and a devil from the beginnning even though Christ choose him. The people who accept the mark believe the lie as a result of God's strong delusion, false prophets/teachers appear to be the real article to many.
Satan assayed to be  like God.
I think it is quite revealing that God in Exodus 30 strictly warned against the imitation of that which was used for the annointing of the priests. The sanction is remarkably severe. I believe it gives a hint about the Lord's teaching regarding blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Admittedly Chuck, it is just a thought and I clearly cannot be dogmatic about this.

I think you are a sharp thinker and I have not had this much fun in months. God is great isn't He?  :)
Verne

Verne,

Be careful with Chuck....he is way smarter than people say he is.   ;)   :) :)


When I think of the term, "unconditional forgiveness," I see it somewhat as an oxymoron.  If forgiveness was unconditional, then why would Jesus have to suffer the cross?

There was a condition to be met, namely that of full payment for every sin.  Jesus alone met the condition for our forgiveness, so to call it unconditional is not correct.

However, on our part there is nothing we need to do.  Jesus paid it all.  The only condition on our part is something that we have no power to play any part in whatsoever.  We need to be chosen by God, and washed in the Blood of Christ.  After this condition has been met, we are forgiven in Christ, and a whole lot more!

The crux of this discussion really hinges on Election.  Is it our choice (conditional)?  Or is it God's choice, (unconditional)?

Many say it is our choice to respond to God's grace, and allow it to work in our lives.
Many say it couldn't be our choice, because if it was, none of us would ever get saved!

I am at rest, and secure in my faith, because I believe that salvation is the Lord's business.  I believe He chose me, and lavished His grace upon me.   As a result, I make choices to please Him

Read the book of Romans.  Here is the line of thought, briefly:

there is none righteous, no NOT ONE.  There is NONE who seeks after God.  We all, each of us, were objects of His wrath.

Jesus paid our debt, released from our bonds, and revealed God's salvation.  It is God who justifies the ungodly(us).

It is God who chose us.

Now, there is no condemnation in Christ, and nothing can seperate us from Him.  

I like this!! I really like it alot!! :)

However, I see it all as conditional.  If we didn't have a Savior, who met all the conditions for our salvation, when were were powerless, and even enemies of God, we would all be lost, even as those who don't believe.

Conditional Forgiveness in the larger sense, Unconditional Forgiveness in the sense that we don't need to do anything to receive it.

God isn't going to forgive those that don't meet His conditions.  Hell is the place.

Brent

Vern,

The prerequisite for forgiveness is the blood.  

However, there is no condition in man that must exist prior to God's forgiveness - We can't earn it -  We can't repent for it...It's by grace - Free! He saves sinners.  The transaction of forgiveness has already ocurred when repentence comes...Let's not confuse forgiveness with reconciliation. His long arm of salvation is extended to me in forgiveness while I'm still up to my neck in the mire.  It's as He lays hold of me and I know He loves me and has forgiven me that I repent - this is the exact moment that His light and unconditional love and forgiveness break through - His forgiveness is the initiator not my repentence - otherwise, it wouldn't be grace.  Even before the fact it is the kindness of God that gives me the light that I know I need to repent - He opened my eyes with the light of forgiveness - Not I opened my eyes and now he forgives.


If His unconditional love did not have unconditional forgiveness, it would not be unconditional love since love "does not take into account a wrong suffered."

Our high priest applies the blood and it's not a condition of our doing - as you note this application was recognized in eternity past .

We're digressing a bit -  Originally this discussion was about man-toward-man forgiveness.

Because of the blood, God was forgiving me unconditionally, is forgiving toward me unconditionally, and will forgive me unconditionally...I can therefore forgive my fellow man unconditionally.  When I see others I see myself - myself needing Christ - forgiving in advance, in forgiving in the present progressive, and forgiving in the future...All unconditionally cause I wouldn't want them to forgive me with conditions.  This is part of loving my neighbor as I would myself - cause I would want grace and forgiveness from both man and God.  So, the law of love tells me to follow with others my own hopes for myself.

So, when I use the word "condition" I am speaking with reference of man-to-man not the prerequisite of the blood from God to man. Also, even as I've indicated that blood is a prerequisite for forgiveness - Still with respect to God-toward-man, I'm insisiting that God's patience, lovingkindness, and forgiveness are absolutely unconditional.

Now we need to go out and love the world as He has loved us - including forgiving their sins as they sin against us.

Verne, I encourage you to know the liberty of godlike forgiveness...Put away your cross referencing, it won't be apprehended this way.  Allow your cup to runneth over to unforgiveness toward guilt laden world

May God's grace abound to you to forgive your fellow man unconditionally.  Love as He has loved us.

I like this Chuck.  I think this is what I was trying to say over at restfortheweary.us.

While I stand ready to forgive, and hope and pray that I can look some of these people in the eye and say, "I forgive you,"  we are not yet reconciled, due to lack of repentance.  You seperate forgiveness and reconciliation, whereas I see them as being inextricably linked.  Interesting.

Thanks for you recent presence on the BB.  Things are hoppin now, in a good way.

Brent

My dear friend Chuck, I don't want to appear to be straining at a gnat but this position is not scripturally accurate!
There is much room for argument about what produces the condition in man that permits him to receive the grace of God. There is no doubt whatsoever that for any man to be saved he must repent.  Were this not true, no one would be lost. I know you are not a Universalist like Andrew Jukes et al so I am wondering if we just have a communication prioblem here. I reference 1 John 1:9 again. He forgives if we confess. Am I missing something?


Absoutely right. However I thought it would be useful to frame the question in a broader sense i.e. whether forgiveness is by definition unconditional. I hoped to prove the point by showing that there are those whom God has stated in no uncertain terms that He will not forgive. In my view that proves the point unless one invokes a different standard for man. That of course is a completely separate can of worms!  :)
Verne

p.s. To the best of my knowledge Chuck, there is not a single person I know of who was involved with the assemblies that I hold a grudge against. I formed many, many deep friendships there and know many of them to be God's precious blood-bought flock. The sharpness of my pixels is often mistaken for bitterness - I assure you, the full joy of my salavation is intact.  
I do think one of the great weaknesses of those around Geftakys was a failure to be guided in all they thought and did by only the clear teaching of God's Word. I consider myself to be a on a marvellous journey of discerning the proper balance of grace and truth. I want to be careful to see that everything I accept or espouse has the clear sanction of Scripture. It is the only way we avoid error. It is my own belief that there are some clearly scripturally defined categories for which there will be no forgiveness. This in not indulgence in some kind of personal vendetta but rather a bowing to clearly presented Biblical teaching. I do realise some reserve the right to disagree. That is entirely O.K.!   :)

p.p.s.
I completely agree that the blood of Christ is the effective agent of remission. Recall the message of John the babtist:

Then he went into all the area on either side of Jordan, preaching a babtism of repentance for the forgiveness(remission) of sins...
Luke 3:3

Brent,

Forgiveness and reconciliation are linked - like a male and female.  They are one, but yet two.  It is not good for man to be alone.  It is not good for forgiveness to exist without reconciliation.  Genuine reconciliation depends upon a partner - forgiveness birthing reconciliation - another analogy.


Brent, to get to reconciliation you need to grant forgiveness in advance.  Chicken or the egg?  It's the egg - and the egg is forgiveness. Why? The guilty party is leveraged by grace - God's Grace coming from you in unconditionally forgiving.  However, it's a loaded deal - Just cause you forgive it is no guarantee that the other party(s) will agree to repent and be reconciled.  However, you are now right with God - And! you have just removed any hindrance from your side on this person coming clean, repenting and getting right with you and God.

Indeed, it is not good for forgiveness to exist without reconciliation.  

Hey, but stuff happens...The world is fallen.  Redemption has to start with us.

::c:v::

Verne,

Yes.

::c:v::

Yep, Christ is the condition...However, I was speaking as if that were a given.


Yes! We may be in agreement now. So, knowing this we should be able to go out and unconditionally forgive those who sin against us. Just as God, in Jesus, unconditionally forgives us.


We're in agreement, again.

Point is - God has lavished His grace on us.  We need to love because He first loved us.  We need to forgive cause He first forgave us.  Since we're right with God - So far as it depends on us, we can be right with all mankind.

Amen!  Praise Him!

Is this is an acknowledgement that forgiveness  is a two person process? What is meant by so far as it depends on us...? hmmmnn...?
There are many verses in the Bible that are difficlut to be understood. The use of the conditional conjuction if is not such an example. Absent the condtition, so the promised result. Computer hacks will recognize the power of the if-then argument. What is there really about this that is so obscure? Proclaiming blanket and universal forgiveness absent true repentance may make us feel all warm and fuzzy inside but I fear it has no basis in the teaching of Scripture.  If I am indeed missing something, would someone pray tell...?
Verne

Vern, are you missing something?

::c:v::

Not quite sure...am I??!  :)

Yes, I think so.  

O.K. Anybody  out there is in need of a little forgiveness?

Bring your repentance and step right up; I'll show you an unlimited supply...!

No repentance available? Please see Chuck...
(I am afraid you will have to see the Lord later...)   ;D
Verne
 

I'll practice what I preach, Verne, I forgive you for distortion.  

No repentence necessary for that forgiveness - cause the Lord says forgive those who distort against you...

However, you might consider repentence and humility so we can carry on concerning other subjects in a reconciled manner and so that you can maintain a clear conscience before the Lord.

In Christ's love and forgiveness - I encourage you to find, in my opinion, your "missing thing" humility and grace.  

I find your most recent comments hurtful.

In His Love, Chuck

P.S. I think our conversations on this subject have reached a termination point.  I'm done.

::c:v::

I haven't quite figured out why, but for some reason this argument about forgiveness reminds me of the old philosophical question: "If a tree falls in the forest, and no one hears it, does it make a sound?"

The answer is "Yes" it makes a sound.

Well I'd like to try and weigh in on this topic of forgiveness if I may.
If we need to confess or repent in order to be forgiven;then what about those who Christ forgave when he was being crucified. Did his forgiving them imply that they were exempt from hell? No. The issue seems to be faith. Yes, he forgives unconditionally(prior to salvation, repentance, or reconciliation) but in order to receive salvation and reconciliation a person must believe in what has already taken place, the purchase of our forgiveness.
And how about Stephen forgiving those who were murdering him via stoning. Is this anything less than a proper attitude from someone who understands(not an "intellectual" type of understanding) from his heart a measure of his own debt.
You know when I was in the Assembly I could quote at least two scriptures for every opposing view someone might hold to those I held of the bibles teaching(I also knew more big words). But I just can't get interested in that kind of debate anymore so please forgive me if I don't do justice to defending what I believe to be correct doctrine although I think I understand in my heart the importance of correct doctrine better than ever. It's not for intellectual stimulation that were taught to study the bible or so that we can out debate someone else but rather that we can be in right relationship with God and help(not overpower) others to have an equal relationship with Him.
In simplicity,Kevin.
 

Kevin, this is excellent - Yes!

::c:v::

Why on earth don't we read our Bibles carefully???
Christ asked The Father to forgive them!!!
( same idea with Stephen...read it...)

Kevin did you read what you wrote here? You have essentially stated that people that Christ forgave unconditionally are yet without salvation and in danger of hell-fire. In other words, your vaunted "unconditional forgiveness" in and of itself is ultimately meaningless, as clearly attested to by your strange caveat "But in order...". I repeat, by your own argument "unconditional forgiveness" in and of itself is meaningless! What in the world has happened to reason among God's people?

Let us consider the way Kevin prefaces his argument.
The statement "if we need to confess or repent in order to be forgiven..." is incomprehensible.
Why is a propositional interrogative being raised about what the Bible clearly says, and says repeatedly? Do the examples Kevin gives in any way logically contradict the Biblical teaching of 1 John 1:9? Why don't we just for a moment use our brains instead of our hearts?
There were many with heart conviction who followed and enabled George Geftakys for three decades. Unless we can agree that the Word of God is the ultimate standard for all we hold true and believe, we will forever be prey to convincing counterfeits.
If anyone has an alternate understanding of 1 John 1:9 I would certainly like to hear it. Unless language is meaningless, to deny what the verse clearly says and construct "heart reasons" for a doctrinal position is sheer folly.
One of the reasons for the confusion, and I purposely waited until now to mention it is that the advocates of unconditional forgiveness have been ignoring a fundamental Biblical premise. Those of you so confident in your position answer me this simple question.
Who has the power to forgive sin? Do any of you?

The answer to this is obvious even to the brain- dead.

Tell me therefore, when you "forgive" someone, what exactly are you "forgiving"?
Please, no more "heart reasons". Read your Bibles and use the brain God gave you...

Verne
p.s.
Lest anyone misunderstand me, clearly the attitude of heart that Kevin and Chuck are espousing is Biblically correct. To attach however the word unconditional to forgiveness betrays a woeful misunderstanding of what the word truly means. What we are seeing is the kind of circumlocution and confusion that results when we fail to simply read the Word of God and believe what it says. No wonder George Geftakys was able to make merchandise of so many. What a pity that we stilll do not understand what Chirst acutally did for us, and what it cost...!
 

You know Verne, this is where you lose your reader and your audience.  Regardless, of what you're trying to say; these kind of statements totally undermine your credibilitiy.  

Even if you're right - you're wrong.  

This is pure Geftakyism.  You know, when I'm trying to sort something out on what is right and what is wrong and then someone let's one of these zingers out, whatever they are arguing for, I find myself jumping  away from that person or jumping to the other side.  If you're right, you have just pushed someone farther from the truth.

Ask yourself - Is the point to win someone to a closer relationship with Christ or is it to hurt them and win an argument.

Insinuations of other believers being "brain-dead" is borderline blasphemy...If you call a brother fool you will be guilty of hell-fire.

Brother I'm praying for you.  I think you have a terrific mind.  As noted earlier, I am done engaging you on forgiveness, however, I am truly concerned for your life and heart.  

I am engaging you on your soul.


In my wildest imaginations I cannot imagine Jesus saying this to another human.  I do see Him rebuking prideful attitudes of one-upmanship - Such attitudes are hateful and their demonic.

As I noted in my previous post -

"What's missing" Verne? - Grace is missing.

"What's missing" Verne? - Humility is missing.

I find it terribly troubling when someone of such intelligence so clearly misses the two qualities so intrinsically basic to being a believer - yes even a young believer.

Verne, in the gentle Spirit of Jesus I rebuke you and encourage to seek to be reconciled with Kevin.  I don't know this brother, but I see tremendous offense in your words.

I got up this morning and before I visited the BB and saw your post I had this email in my box...

You two are right on the mark about forgiveness, grace, faith, reconciliation...What you've said should be clear to anyone with an open heart and/or mind.

I  love Verne, but he loves to debate, his theology is very cerebral, and he hates to lose.  My  concern is for the little ones who read but don't post.  They don't need to be exposed to battles of one-upmanship.  Verne is a master at pushing one's buttons, getting under one's skin, etc.  He has brought out the worst in some other posters and defends his right to do so (which right  I  don't deny he has as a poster, but it is unnecessary conduct for a saint and potentially dangerous - to him - as well as to others).

My purpose is to alert you to what could lie ahead, and to entreat you to take a detour.  Christ can be exalted and the truth told without having to tangle with this man.    

I was tempted to quote Romans 10:9-10, replacing "heart" with "brain" and attribute it to the "VerneCarty Translation."  But that's because his seemingly intellectual pride pushes my buttons and I want to set him in his place.  The thing is, I've tangled with him before - he means no harm.  To him, the debate is fun (as long as he thinks he's winning), as he has stated.  He doesn't seem to be inquiring so much as strutting his knowledge.
     
Chuck and Kevin, you have both pushed his buttons by not succumbing to the "superiority" of his arguments.  He's getting a little testy and starting to try to bait you.  Experience has taught me to love him, pray for him and ignore him in such cases

This is not about Verne - I really do love him.  This is about cautioning you for the sake of the innocent readers who could be hurt. I am grateful for your posts.  They encourage me, and I have no doubt they do others too.  

Verne, in the gentle Spirit of Jesus I rebuke you and encourage to seek to be reconciled with Kevin.  I don't know this brother, but I see tremendous offense in your words.

Humitly and grace - better than winning the battle online with strangers - is winning the the war privately within your own heart.  

In Christ's Love for you,

Chuck

::c:v::

My are we getting thin-skinned! If you cannot stand the heat, get out of the kitchen my friend.
Let me spell it out even more plainly for all to see Chuck.

BE KIND TO ONE ANOTHER, TENDERHEARTED AND FORGIVING ONE ANOTHER.....
Ephesians 4:22

Fill in what is missing from that verse and see the folly of your position...
I too am done...
Verne
p.s.
This is not the first time I have been criticised for my writing style. Do you really think my hyperbole was intended as an insult to God's people after all that I have written? For you to even suggest it ought to tell you something about your own heart. You dissapoint me with this blatantly ad hominem attack Chuck. I only wish someone had spoken to me this way all the years I listened to Geftakys...
Read carefully:
As-God-FOR-CHRIST'S-SAKE-has-forgiven-you. Beautiful is it not?
DO NOT FORGET THE "AS"!!!!!!!!!!

Kevin if what I said offended you I sincerely apologise. I would have thought that the volume of posts on this BB would not leave anyone in doubt about the reasons I say what I say the way I say it. Have we all forotten how we came to this place? How is it that debate about the horror of what George Geftakys perpetrated on all of us has now become an occasion for us to turn on each other? I am truly dismayed at how quick those of yoy who talk so blithely about "unconditional forgiveness" are so quick to impugn the motives of others. This is a sad day.
 As for hating to loose, I would do anything in my power to prevent a repeat of the kind of spiritual loss we have witnessed at the hands of Geooge Geftakys et al baccause so few choose to speak the truth.
Verne

Ephesians 4:32 - Amen, Verne! .... A terrific verse to end on. Let's all fill in what's missing and be instructed.  

I accept that you're now done on this subject - that is prudent...Again, my prayer is that you will not let God be done with you with respect to grace and humility in your posts.  

What was missing?  Grace and humility.

In Him to you, Chuck

::c:v::

I appreciate you prayers and entreaty Chuck. As you can clearly see, I am a work in progress. I do love you dearly my friend.
Verne

Not only doubt...but incredulousness and dismay.



When someone acts like George and accuses someone of being "brain-dead" one shouldn't weep and moan when he is called to account.  It was in love, Verne.  Be careful not to throw a pity party. You apologized to Kevin, now don't take it back by insinuating that those that prompted such an action were "turning on" you.

Love you bro, and I'm encouraged by your maturity in doing this.  If your apology didn't have so many qualifications, I would even say it was a small step in the direction of "grace" and "humility."  I know you're trying - Praise God!

Loving you with Him, Chuck

::c:v::

O.K Chuck. Let me try once more. Kevin I sincerely apologise.  :)
Verne

In an effort to be specific in my apology to Kevin I went back and carefully read my posts. The apology stands as the issue is not whether I intended to offend him or not.
Could somebody please indicate where I actually said, as I was accused of saying, that anyone was brain dead?
While it is true that I do my best to do violence to a man's perceived fallacious arguments, with one or two well-noted exceptions, I never touch the man himself. This is what makes for a great debate!
Why do I bring this up? Think about it....
Verne
p.s.
If George had actually called any of us who followed him for years "brain-dead" we would have to agree with him don't you think?  ;D
All in good humor of course...

I have studied this thread with interest, amusement and just a little bit of sadness.  Really very little sadness, but just a touch.

Here is how it is boiling down.

There are two conditions for "unconditional" forgiveness:

1.) An offense must be committed
2.) An offense must be ignored--no exceptions

I see, with regard to God and man, that #1 exists.  However, #2 in no way is true.  The offense wasn't ignored, it was paid in full.  Jesus was the recipient of God's wrath, on our behalf.  That is a serious condition.  Furthermore, only those who believe will be forgiven. (we could say only the Elect here) Jesus' unconditional forgiveness has a condition.  To state otherwise means everyone is saved, which is a rather difficult position to defend.

With regard to man and man, #1 is true.

However, #2 is not true.  We cannot ignore it when people offend us.  In fact, we are to rebuke them, entreat them, etc.  If they do not repent, we are to treat them, not as brethren, but as heathens and tax collectors.  (This is not done lightly, and perhaps never occurs in most Christians lives,  decent people cool off and apologize.)

We should stand ready to forgive.  In that sense, the person is "already" forgiven, in the potential sense.  However, forgiveness cannot be manifest in its full purpose, that is reconcilliation, until there is integrity in both parties.  Forgiveness, honesty, humility, repentance and restoration.

Do we need help?  I reckon we do.

Here is my entreaty:  Please stick to the Bible on this topic.  Use verses, passages, examples, etc.  Please don't attack one another, and don't take an attack on the argument to be a personal attack.  It just won't work.

Brent is stupid=personal attack
Brent's argument is wrong=proper discussion.

Brent

The fact that we are fallible means that another possibility is that in some cases we might be wrong to be offended at something, so it doesn't necessarily follow that offence must lead to rebuke etc.

Matthew 7:12
Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Romans 13:10
Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Yep.  I should have said there are AT LEAST two conditions for unconditional forgiveness!

I think it would be unforgivable for me to say any more here.   ;)

Brent

I agree with everything, you've stated, Brent; however their is a spin or a nuance I'd like to season-to-taste.  Since love "believes all things" instead of standing ready to forgive - actually do it.  When you do it, you will find a bit of redemption for yourself and for the circumstances that surround the offense, and you'll automatically be positioning the relationship of the party who has offended you or sinned against you to repent.  Why?  Cause rarely, if ever, is standing ready to forgive as winsome as having actually forgiven.  We're taught to be fishers of men - Our unconditional forgiveness bates the hook.

An example - When Verne humbled himself this morning and apologized (virtually asking for forgiveness) it was a huge incentive for me to reach out and get reconciled to him.  We've been exchanging private messages...I think we're on our way.

Unconditional forgiveness is a uniquely Chrisitan facility.

Reconciliation and forgiveness should go together. However, that is an ideal that will not be realized 100% of the time until the Kingdom comes where Thy will will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

Reconciliation presumes forgiveness.  However, forgiveness does not necessarily presume reconciliation - It should, but until our King comes the lion will not lie down with the lamb - and forgiveness with its mate reconciliation will often be postponed until judgment.

Finally, if folks come out at different places on this - I'm fine with that, aren't you?  Personally I think we see things differently because God in His infinite wisdom wants it that way and is allowing us to live by faith with Him and by grace with each other.  We all see in a mirror dimly and what we can make out is often quite different.  I accept you all - yet, not for the purpose of passing judgment on your opinions.  I accept you all cause I need you.  I need the church.

Question to the readers - Is it possible that you are missing something here?  If your answer is "Nope, not me! Not on this deal"...I say "Whoa friend you're in serious trouble"...If not on this topic then maybe with your Christian walk.  

Hey, I do know this - I could be wrong! And, often am wrong...very often, probably more often than not.

And, let me be a bit outrageous - I know I'm wrong, but here's the rub - I don't know whereexactly?  And as I seek first the Kingdom of God I'm actually finding out where the Kingdom is not resident in me. Except for who Jesus is and what He did on the cross and His rising from the dead - everything for me is subject to the church for inspection, my believing friends, and I'm even open to many of my unbelieving neighbors for review (God uses them, too!).  

The track record has shown that for 26 years as a believer God has regularly razed almost all my beliefs and completely revised how I look at my world, how I look at the church, how I look at people, and how I fit into all of it - And, yes how he forgives sin, and why? and how this relates to repentence and how it relates to reconciliation and why? and blah, blah, blah...

And, like you Brent I'm following this discussion with interest.  With me, I'm a student and what I don't know far exceeds what I do know.

Lastly, I, like perhaps most people, have a long cycle-time to actually "get it."  If I hear a view and it doesn't make sense - It would not be unusual for it to work its way back into my attention and thinking months or even years later...And, then "pop" I morph into that idea that seemed so absurd months or years earlier.  If you haven't ever experienced this, well, just wait a while I think it happens to just about all of us mess around enough with really trying to "get it."  

The first step to getting it is to admit that you don't got it.

So, every post is an adventure...onward & upward.

Blessings to all of you, my friends...Chuck

::c:v::





 

Your forgiven Verne. I think I understand where your coming from. I don't mean to dumb things down but rather I'm trying to add some simplicity to things. We get really off track with all the intellectual debate about simple christianity. At least christianity should be simple. But anyhow maybe I'll start a new thread about that sometime. We just finished our third week of school down here in the Texas Hill Country and with soccer practice's, open houses, and bible studies, I'm whipped.
God bless,Kevin.

Funny how people take decades of all kinds of abuse with nary a protest from the likes of Geftakys and then get on a BB and get all sanctimonious about animated debate...I guess because  forgiveness is unconditional is the reason two previous apologies were lost on the perspicacious Mr. Smith...some of you folk are truly tiresome... ::)
Verne

on one hand, i don't think it is fair or helpful to make a blanket judgement like this in an environment where people are going to be extra-sensitive to it, as you well know, verne.

on the other hand, i also don't think its reasonable to go onto a public bb and be so sensitive that you want to see an apology for every acerbic statement people may respond to your posts with.

i would rather see people posting what they really think, and maybe getting a bit excited about it, than hiding what they really think (or refusing to really think) for fear of offending someone. just keep it reasonably civil, no cursing at each other, etc. focus on debating the issue rather than taking everything personally, or attacking the person. cool?

brian

Brian,

     i'd say a whopping "AMEN!" but my approval
might cast a shadow upon your post. ;)

al

Fair enough. I don't want to appear unentreatable but it is unspeakably tedious to have holier-than-though Geftakys sycopphants constantly carping about "style"  "attittude", "grace" and "humility" and not paying a rat's petootie worth to what is being said. Fat lot of good such passivity did you all those years in Geftakys' clutches. Why on earth do people come to a BB if not to engage in debate and lively exchange. The self-preoccupation can be stifling- Let us discuss issues for crying out loud!! Sorry, just my
honest opinion.
Verne

GREAT MINDS DISCUSS IDEAS  ;D  ;D  ;D


MEDIOCRE MINDS DISCUSS THINGS     ::)  ::)  ::)


Small minds discuss people[/i]  ???   ???   ???

The main thing here is to be nice.  If there were more niceness, than we would all feel better most of the time.

I think niceness is a first step.

I don't want anyone to disagree with me, because then I wouldn't feel nice, and might not want to post again.  Sometimes when I say what I think, and people disagree, I get offended and leave...and that just isn't right.  They owe me an apology.

On the other hand, if I don't agree with them, I still need to be nice.  I need to make room for everyone, regardless of their viewpoints.  None of us has a right to strongly state what we believe to be true.  How arrogant!  The "right opinion," is the one that is nicest.   Everyone knows that.  I have the right, the absolute right, to never have to listen to anyone who disagrees with me.  I have the right to have thin skin, and to take offense at someone who is not being nice.  Words and ideas have no meaning.  

The purpose here is not to discuss controversial or meaningful topics...there is enough of that already.  Our purpose here is to provide a safe environment, where no one disagrees.

Some people are afraid to post, because people like Verne and myself are not nice enough.  Other people are afraid to post because they are afraid that others won't think what they have to say is nice.  These things ought not to be!

Study to show yourself a workman, approved by God, nicely dividing the Word of Truth------Brent Tr0ckman translation

All of us need to apologize to eachother for saying things in the wrong spirit....I'll accept each of you as correct, regardless of what you believe.... :P :P  Rebuke them, that they may be nice in the faith!  That's the spirit that Paul was trying to convey to Timothy.  May we never question one another about ideas, conclusions or words!  Let's save our rebukes for the way we percieve a person's attitude to be when they write.  Lack of niceness---rebuke them!  

Here is the principle thing to guide us:If someone has strong convictions, and their convictions lead them to strongly state something contrary to what seems nice, they are wrong.  Strong convictions, beliefs....understanding; all of this leads to trouble.  Contend in a nice manner, not as if you understand what you are talking about.  The beauty of this, is that if you are wrong about something you believe, you need never admit it!  By not clearly stating, or standing up for what you believe, your ambiguity leaves you in a position of niceness.  No one is made to feel bad, and no one gets hurt!  Everyone wins, and gets a trophy!  Wouldn't you all rather be winners?

Brent---I'm gonna be only nice from now on.  

PS: I wish I had never said the mean things I said about George, David and the rest.  If I had been nicer, they probably would have repented, and many of you could have still been attending a much nicer Assembly meeting!  Convictions and conscience often lead us into positions where niceness becomes difficult.

If your convictions cause you to think un-nice thoughts, It's time to re-examine your beliefs.  They are wrong.

Very nice, Brent.

Jack

Brent---

That's one of the nicest things I've ever read. It's so nice to see people being nice to one another. From now on I'm only going to post truly nice things. I hope this post hasn't been too offensive. I'll try to tone it down the next time.
Have a truly nice day.


--Joe

NICE!  ;D

Verne

[/u][/b]


"...and get all sanctimonious about..."

Verne, it's missing again.  I'm not against you, Bro.  I'm for you! Don't kick against the goads...Take heed - it's missing.



I don't know how Bob took this, but the sarcasm is jolting and I feel compelled to tell you it is injurious to the Lord's lambs.  Accusing a man of not getting "previous apologies" and then calling him perspicacious is either an enormous contradiction or a form of such deep sarcasm that it is more than unwise or unperspicacious - it's foolish. Such facetious remarks create a bitter way of interacting among believers. It angers. It provokes. It hurts.

Again, something is missing...

 

Oh no, please brother; I'm entreating you in the sweetness of our gentle Savior - Something is missing!  I appeal to you, Verne, get right with Bob.

Whoever says to his brother "Empty Head!" shall be in danger of the council. Whoever says "You fool!" shall be in danger of hell fire.

Don't walk - Run!  Run and get right with Bob.

In Him to you, Verne...Chuck

::c:v::

Brent, I'm not after being nice but rather doing right, speaking right, writing right...Ephesians 4:29.

Words should be wholesome, timely and gracious.

The kingdom of God does not consist in words, but in power.  Where's your power?  In Christ means we will be filled with his sweet, gentle, winsome Spirit.  Love can make even harsh truths easy to swallow.

Beautiful biblical truths spoken harshly drive men to blaspheme God.

We must be careful with our tongues, we must be careful with our typing fingers.

Just because one is harsh doesn't make one a prophet.  Just because one is gentle and sweet doesn't mean one isn't a messenger of God.

::c:v::

Niceness is the way to go, everyone knows that.  However, there is one drawback to niceness, but it isn't as important as the overall benefit of niceness.

If we are always nice, we can't be jarred to our senses by another person.  We can't ever have a moment where our eyes are opened, because this isn't nice.  Also, if we have been nice, as we should all the time, when we are truly wrong about something, we never have to say, "You know, I was wrong about that.  I made an A#@ of myself, because I was stuck on my opinion.  Please forgive me."

Niceness means we never have to say that!  PHew!!  When we are nice we can say,  "That's a nice way to look at it,"  or  "Either way, it's nice."

It's always better to take a flexible stance in the middle, that way you can be nice to the brave people who take stands, which is what they really need in order to heal.

Brent

I know buddy.  I am not really directing my niceness entreaty at the people who take a stand.  I have been on the board for a while, and every now and then I get a whiff the "niceness spirit," which some mistake as the Holy Spirit.

As you know, I am all for discussion, passion and honesty.  I can take a punch, and give one out.  I appreciate knocking people down, helping them up, and I like to be helped up when someone knocks me down.  That's all I'm trying to say.

I totally agree that we should be careful what we say and type, also what we think about people.

NICENESS RULES!!

Moderation, carefulness and easy does it....that's what is behind all great accomplishments!  ;)

Brent

Hey, you know me, Brent.  You've seen me less than nice.  However, be careful that you not justify an unseemly manner.  

Yep, faithful are the wounds of a friend, and deceitful are the kisses of an enemy. But the wise man makes knowledge acceptable - he knows how to be nice when it matters.  I would submit for your consideration - niceness matters most of the time.

As Solomon says, "The wise man knows the proper time and procedure."

Go in the niceness of the Lord!

May you win souls!

::c:v::

Totally agree...We're in violent agreement.

Hey, Brent, I jumped too quick...typed too fast...wasn't "nice"  - forgive me.  I put words in your pen that weren't there.

Mea culpa...

No problem at all Bob; I think we were all getting a bit testy. Please jump right in with your ten cents (or more) worth. This can be a really fun place!
Verne

p.s
 Hey Chuck, do you always take yourself so seriously? Lighten up brother! Laugh a little! My sarcasm notwithstanding, I know I have passed from death to life because I love the brethren. I believe underneath all my bluster a careful reader will discern that fact...
p.s.s
I promise to tone down the verbal jabs...a function of my rigorous early British schooling...

Responded before I read this Bob.One of the problems I sometimes have is I forget not everyone has been on the BB for a long time and newcomers may be a bit taken aback by the sometimes verbal sparring. Believe me, it has really ebbed and flowed over the last ten months or so. I should have recognized that fact in your initial comments and not been so testy. Most of the folks here deeply love the Lord Jesus Christ, and are interested in the best for all who participate - even when we disagree! Thanks for being gracious despite a bit of a rough intro.
Verne
p.s.
Who can come up with a few places in the Bible where God is really sarcastic...

From my Webster's:
Sarcasmn [F or LL; F sarcasme, fr. LL sarcasmos, fr. Gk sarkasmos, fr. sarkazein to tear flesh, bite the lips in rage, sneer, fr. sark-, sarx- flesh; akin to Av thwares- to cut] (1579)  1: a sharp and often satirical or ironic utterance designed to cut or give pain <tired of his contemptuous ~s> 2 a: a mode of satirical wit depending for its effect on bitter, caustic, and often ironic language that is usu. directed against an individual  b: the use or language of sarcasm <this is no time to engage in ~s>
Sarcastic...
syn SARCASTIC, SATIRIC, IRONIC, SARDONIC mean marked by bitterness and a power or will to cut or sting.  SARCASTIC implies an intentional inflicting of pain by deriding, taunting, or ridiculing <a critic famous mainly for his sarcastic remarks> SATIRIC implies that the intent of the ridiculing is censure and reprobation <a satiric look at contemporary sexual mores> IRONIC implies an attempt to be amusing or provocative by saying usu. the opposite of what is meant <made the ironic observation that the government could always be trusted> SARDONIC implies scorn, mockery, or derision that is manifested by either verbal or facial expression <surveyed the scene with a sardonic smile>
---------------------------------------
     God certainly has the right to be sarcastic, but it behooves us all to be very careful that we do not use God as an excuse for simply engaging in self-indulgent behavior.  Are there times when sarcasm is appropriate from a servant of God?  Probably, but that servant must know, and not merely presume the mind of God in the matter, because man looks upon the appearance, but only God sees the heart, and woe to any who presumptuously cause one of His little ones to stumble.

     But wait-- Should we reject one who seeks to serve God because we find fault with his/her delivery?  Well, that would be unwise.  Verne or Brent got a little sharp with me, so i'm not going to read their posts any more?  Let's be real... temper is not heresy.
     i came to this BB (by invitation) thinking to make a contribution.  A few have said they were blest by my posts.  But far and away, the greater benefits have been mine.  There are truly gifted teachers and pastors on board here.  This is Bible college at home at our convenience, if you will.
     Some may have supposed that after i was lambasted on this board a few weeks ago, i tucked tail and disappeared, because i stopped posting.  And i'll admit that i was feeling badly about the things that were said.   i took a little time off from the BB to reconsider my thinking, to study the issues, and to pray about them without further stirring my emotions by reading the BB.  Then i returned to read, but didn't post, so as not to stir controversy.

     Now, without my input, the BB has returned to a similar topic as the one that put me in the doghouse.  My point in this post is to state that at no time have i rejected anyone who has posted opinions or positions contrary to my own.  How can one be instructed unless one is prepared to learn things uncomfortable to hear?  And these brothers and sisters, even if they have rejected me (which most have not), have not rejected Christ.  How, then, should i not want to hear them?
     My opinion of how to address God's people, with respect and dignity, has not changed.  If anything, it is stronger than before, because i allowed myself the indulgenge of answering in-kind those who i perceived as disrespectful toward me and, worse, i initiated some exchange of words in a state of anger far short of the righteous kind, and i was wrong in so doing.  
     This is not about being nice.  This is about treating the people of God as we would treat the Lord Himself, for having done it to the least of His brethren, we have done it unto Him.  And if we may entertain angels unaware, guess what:  we won't be aware of it!  So let's be careful not to cause undue offenses.

    Yes, and i think we are all grateful for that, and for what we have gained because of it.
     What i propose is that this business about kindness and gentleness and sarcasm and such is a discussion, and that it is being conducted, sometimes passionately, and hopefully in honesty.  More important than winning the argument is to learn from the exchange.  Surely there is Truth to be seen, and the Holy Spirit in us to lead us into all of it.

Gratefully,
al Hartman

One obvious example is Job 38-41.

Job 40:1-2,7-14
Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said, Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.  Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.  Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?  Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?  Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty.  Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath: and behold every one that is proud, and abase him.  Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place.  Hide them in the dust together; and bind their faces in secret.  Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.

The amazing thing is that after all that sarcasm, the Lord commended what Job had said while condemning what his three 'Pharisaical' friends had to say because of their misrepresentation of God's character:

Job 42:7
And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.

One thing that surprises me is how often Bible teachers will quote things that Job's friends said in defense of some teaching even though what they said was not endorsed by God.