AssemblyBoard

So far, I have confined my posts to things that almost everyone on this board agrees with.  Now I am about to venture into uncharted (and potentially shark-infested) waters.  All I ask is, don't yell at me too loud.  I'm just a little kid! ;)  BTW, this was all sparked by the very early thread on the "Left Behind" series on this board.  Anyway, here goes:

Much has been said in criticism of CCM and of its related cultures, such as “Contemporary Christian Literature,” “Contemporary Christian Art,” and mega-box-store Christian bookstore chains. In my opinion, the criticisms are entirely valid. Contemporary Christian music is usually theologically shallow and technically sloppy. And it all sounds the same – someone with a voice like Britney or Justin Timberlake singing meaningless words against a background of heavy synthesizers, electric guitars and drums. Of course, you can add an acoustic guitar, and all of a sudden you have “acoustically flavored Christian rock” or “folk-flavored contemporary Christian music” even though all of the other instruments are electric. (This is as laughable as buying those drinks which are supposed to be good for you because they are made with “real fruit juice” although there’s not much more than 5 percent real fruit juice in the drink!) It has been said that Nashville session musicians who are paid to add backing instrumentals to CCM albums refer to their work as “J-J”, or “Junk for Jesus.” True musical innovation – i.e., traditional folk, neo-classical, progressive acoustic music, or any other departure from the norm is not allowed in CCM.

Look at the way the music is packaged, and you will have further cause for alarm. Increasingly, CCM artists are being marketed on the basis of sex appeal. A look at some of the newer young female artists shows photos of them which are, shall we say, much more revealing than they would have been ten or twenty years ago. And look at the testimonies of these artists. They claim to speak for Christ, to speak of a Savior who has proven to be the answer to their deepest problems, yet their private lives are often indistinguishable from those in the world. Jaci Velasquez, for instance, can be seen acting in “Chasing Papi,” a movie which is “inappropriate for young children because of mild sexuality and language.”

Let us consider Christian books. I can honestly say that I believe Jesus Christ is coming again to earth – literally, physically, historically. Yet I can also honestly say that the “Left Behind” series is among the most poorly written novels I have ever been exposed to. Christian fiction seems to be divided between schlocky “conspiracy theory/end of the world” novels and historical fiction. There is nothing in between. Very little attention is given to character development in these books; indeed, the characters seem to be mere cardboard cutouts – excuses for the action to happen. And when we move to Christian non-fiction, can anyone tell me why books by Oliver North and Larry King are being sold in Christian bookstores? What about the ridiculous “What Would Jesus Eat” diet books? Whatever happened to books on sound theology and the duty of Christians?

The problem in all of this and in what’s broadcast on Christian radio as well, is that these things have long since ceased to be a ministry. They are all part of a business. Moreover, that business is largely no longer owned by Christians, but by secular corporations which view the “Christian” portions of their businesses simply as a means to reap profits from a special portion of our society. Look at it this way. We are like money trees. For those of us with jobs, money grows on all of us once every two weeks (or perhaps once a month). The stores we go to and the ads which get us to spend money are the harvesting machines which strip us clean once every two weeks or once a month, as the money sprouts from us. For gullible Christians, the stores and advertisers have “Christian” harvesting machines. They take our money and leave us with junk.

What is the solution? I propose that we as Christians (at least as Christians who care) should opt out of the system. I personally haven’t bought anything from a Christian bookstore in several months, and I don’t think I ever will again. Stop giving these people your money.

Next, re-define what is meant by ministry. If a ministry is something I do so I can get rich and be famous (all for the Lord, of course!) then that ministry can be corrupted much more easily than something I do for free, without any hope of earthly reward. Take music for instance. A ministry that can’t be corrupted would be for a person to have a responsible day job, then to study and practice by night so that he or she could give concerts for free. Or a person could learn to play a musical instrument and play it well, then teach free classes to those who can’t afford to take lessons. A Christian artist who wanted to glorify God with his guitar could get a responsible job – say, as an electrical engineer – and buy several inexpensive guitars to give to kids in his neighborhood. He could start a guitar class. Then he could host a graduation recital where the kids invited families and friends, and the Gospel was preached. And he could do it all for FREE! That kind of ministry can’t be easily corrupted by the mammon of unrighteousness!

If a man or woman wants to be a Christian artist, he or she can study the craft of the art. A Christian guitarist should know how to read standard notation and tablature, should know about altered tunings and modes, should seek to learn good fingerstyle technique, etc. He should not be content merely to play strummy-strum-strum praise choruses with lyrics like this:

Lord, I lift my hands to You,
Lord, I lift my hands to You,
Lord, I lift my hands to You,
Praise Your Name

repeated a dozen times. And when it comes to poetry, lyrics, and stories, pleeeease, go to school! A Christian poet should be able to recognize iambs, trochees, spondees, dactyls, and anapests – and know how to use them. He or she should be able to write a sestina, a villanelle, a sonnet or a haiku. He or she should know how to build a metaphor, a word picture, a parable. Consider the literary group known as “the Inklings”. J.R.R. Tolkien and C.S. Lewis were both members of that society. They pushed each other to excellence in their writing. And look at the result: they blow most modern authors clean out of the water.

Lastly, the Internet can be a good place to share art, poetry and even songs without having to pay a lot. And you can bypass the greedy money-harvesters.

This has been a rather long-winded dissertation, for which I apologize. Now, what do you think?

I like what you have to say, Clarence, and I agree with you.  

However, today, almost 50% of the people out there were in the bottom half of their class!  Due to the deteriorating nature of our culture (or any culture, for that matter) it will always be an uphill battle for beauty, intellect, kindness, nobility, and great minds will always be scarce.

Free people produce great people, and we used to be free in America.  As we abandon our liberty, we will abandon our greatness, and people with minds like Lewis or Tolkien will become increasingly few.  In a culture like ours, God will still have a way of reaching people, but it won't be through Iambic Pentameter, or Sonnets.  It might be through over produced Christian music and stadium sound systems.

Remember, synagogues were at one time a great place to outreach, but not any longer.  If you can't appeal to someone's mind, perhaps you can reach them through their love of dancing?

These are my thoughts.  I long for thinkers again.  There are a few, but not as many as I would like.

Brent

Has anyone read Closing of the American Mind from the mid-80's? It suggests many of the same ideas.

Since we're on the subject, anyone want to help me write a comparison/contrast paper on the theme of exile in the novels The Tale of Genji and Moll Flanders? Maybe you could fly down to sunny Florida and take care of the oral presentation part in my Lit class! :P

Any takers? I've got a nice beach. 8)

Scott

A couple of points to add to what the wizard has said.

I think much of Christian music is just trying to be like the world's music.  Much modern secular music is more mass produced than interested in talent.  There are some modern Christian artists who are amazingly talented, but they're usually not as popular.

I just played the piano with the worship team at my church.  My church has an incredibly talented group of musicians, and I consider this to be quite a privelege.  We do contemporary praise music, but tend to avoid the songs with droning repeated lyrics.  Often we have sample recordings of the songs done at other churches.  Usually they end up sounding better than the recordings.  Our drummer is the most talented drummer I've known, and not just in Christian circles.

Several of the group are professional musicians, and others have "conventional" jobs.  The only person who gets paid is the music director.  He does an excellent job.

However, many churches aren't able to find people who have that much talent.  I think that is part of why there are some worship songs that are done so simply.  As Brent said 50% are below average (technically, 50% are below median).

A good question is: who is being glorified?  It isn't always God.

Perhaps churches should avoid the promotion of mass-market music and books that is implicit by their use in church services and study groups.  In order for things to sell well they need to be popular, and the popular way is not the way to life.

Matthew 7:13-14
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

John 2:16
And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

Exodus 20:23-26
Ye shall not make with me gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold.  An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee.  And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it.  Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto mine altar, that thy nakedness be not discovered thereon.

(That last sentence seems to be adverse to way some Christian books seem to present formulas for the Christian life.)

While the Exodus passage might seem to be against all Christian art, I think the idea is that it should not draw our attention away from God.  Later God gave instructions for the tabernacle, and then there was Solomon's temple.

Bach in his cantatas wrote counter melodies that would endorse rather than detract from the thematic hymn tune.  No other composer did as good a job of subordinating the counter melody to supporting the theme.

 Well said Clarence!  I think that we are kindred spirits, which probably makes us both old fogies as well  ;)!  Scott mentioned the book, "The Closing Of The American Mind," that I have read several times which deals with the modern rejection of traditional philosophy based in absolutes in favor of a view that sees all truth as relative.  If there is no way to understand life, and every opinion is as valid as the next, our minds close up and relate to the world only on the basis of what makes us feel good.  This kind of "progessive thought" has come to the Christian world and infected it as well.  Who God is, what His will is, discernment in matters of faith, etc., don't attract much of a following these days.  I'm glad you are here to remind us of these things and to stir us up to think on them.  BTW: what would Jesus eat? ;)    God Bless,  Mark C.  
   

Clarence,

I agree with you on CCM and CCL etc. I present this perspective as a mother with 2 teens.

I was unsaved as a teen. I listened to the radio a lot and know a lot of the songs from the 50s 60s and 70s. (I wasn't a teen that long:)). I was saved in January 1982. Now when I listen to the Oldies radio station I am amazed at how many of the songs I actually know and remember. The point is that teens like to listen to music, and when they get to their 40s the songs that they mostly remember are the ones they heard in their teen years, even the words. I would rather have them remember songs with Christian words than those with "worldly" and sometimes defiling words.

Similarly with the books. I remember starting to read the Mandie books to my kids. After 2 books I was not able to continue feeding my kids that twaddle. Anyone out there who disagrees with me? Jerry Jenkins and Tim LaHaye have a talent of stretching out their scenario of the end times. One of the books was one day, but they managed to stretch it out into a whole book; large print, double spaced, a few blank pages and Voila we have a novel. I personally prefer Thoene and Michael Philips for literature quality. However, with Thoene she tends to get into the romance and relationship aspect as well, whereas Jenkins/LaHaye and Philips do not. I prefer that my teens have something to read, so I cannot boycott Christian bookstores at this time.
My son has read LOTR 7 or 8 times maybe. and Narnia Chronicles a couple of time (I think). But he is now reading secular authors as he loves to read.

Lord bless,
Marcia

Hi Clarence, you have truly struck a cord with me, it is amazing how low Christian music has become.  

It is very sad to see artist repeatedly say that Keith Green is an influence in their music and yet there are very few out there will to NOT COMPROMISE the message, life style, and "ministry".

Ministry is to meet the needs of the people and not your pocketbook.  Again there are still some great artist out there, but for the most part they are not very well known.

Lord Bless,
G

I saw Michael Card perform a few years ago.  It was so different than normal contemporary Christian music.  He even opened his bible and preached for a bit.  I think the thing I saw in Michael that seems rare is humility.

I believe that the 2nd chapter of acts stopped performing largely because of what they saw happening to the Christian music "industry".

As for who the bass player is, do you remember which album it is on?  Each album will have credits, and perhaps someone can find the actual case.

I wonder how many people here know who Jaco Pastorius is Verne?  I am one who does!

As for Christian music, I can highly recommend the Vinyard Worship Cd's.  Truly excellent in every way.  The Newsboys are good, although not that "cool" anymore.  They did draw a huge crowd at the Mid-State fair here last summer, however.

Jars of Clay are also good, although a little passe`

Get a Vinyard CD, and you will find the whole atmosphere of your house transformed.

Brent

I have reading this post with great interest.
I have for many years been quite appalled by the Christian "culture" and its insular nature. Aside from the subpar literature, my biggest pet peeve is CCM music.
 The dribble they dipense on CCM music radio is  insulting quite frankly.   What further amuses me are "Christian" groups that get dissed when they cross over into the DREADED world of secular rock.  I remember in my youth group in the 80s poor Amy Grant being lambasted as the devil's handmaiden.  Of course now, there are so many spirtual groups in the mainstream (P.O.D., Chevelle, Sixpence None the Richer).  And there are always those Christians that say "Oh, I'm not listening to them anymore, they don't have God and Jesus in their lyrics. ::)!  It mystifies me, but if they want to limit themselves, that is their choice.

I am a big myself of the Christian alternative music movement.  They are making true music and are salt and light in the truest sense.  Of course, a lot of them make bad music and many of them are far from perfect.  However, when I glimpse at the alternative, I can only shake my head.
I admit it I'm an artistic snob!

Re. CCM, I have been wanting to let everyone know that Brad Mathias, formerly of Tuscola IL, now of Nashville TN, is managing partner in Butterfly Group, the fourth largest producer of Christian music.  Check them out at http://www.christianrecords.net/  (http://www.christianrecords.net/).  Some of their albums are West Coast Worship (Saddleback CA), God of All Comfort (Glad), African Children's Choir, Orbit (Jill Parr), Butterfly Kids 1 & 2, and many more.  They also have a series called Senior Select, which has interesting reworks of standard hymns.

And yes, much of the downfall of CCM can be traced directly to Brad Mathias! I blame the many hours secretly listening to WLS AM in Chicago while growing up.

Many of these artists have auditioned for Brad only to be shot down because they did not sound enough like Foreigner or Journey. And while many would gladly minister through music via free concerts and webcasts, Mathias will have not of it, insisting on mega-million contracts!

Every word of this is, of course, meant to be humorous (except the WLS part :) ). One of the reasons Brad got involved in this (he's also a first-rate chiropractor), is because he would love to increase the quality of offerings in Christian media. Rich Mullins is one of his favorite artists.

Hopefully, he'll be a good influence at Butterfly. He's registered on the board and has listed his email address. Bet he would be glad to dialogue with some of you on this topic.

Scott

PS- He introduced me to Jill Parr last summer when we visited him and his family in Franklin - at a Chuckie Cheese!  ;D She's a sweetheart by the way and is very talented.

This is a fun thread to read.  David, much of the above could be said about the place where we go now, except you're not the piano player.  And Phill is the talented one on the drums!
Chrisnortonfan, artistic snob that he is, told us of the City on a Hill series of cds, they're great.  Thanks, Chris.   8)
We like Caedmon's Call, Phill likes John Anderson who used to be with Yes, and now with 4 Him.  Chris Rice is very good. We heard for years of the shallow worldiness of CCM, but are finding quite the opposite in many cases.
We've always liked Michael Card, his Starkindler cd is a particular favorite of mine.
Mithrandir, have you read anything by Sigmund Brouwer?  Canadian author, wrote Double Helix and a number of others.  Or how about The Maestro by T. Davis Bunn?  Not the Inklings, but well told.
Perhaps I'm just another 'clueless' swimmer, but did want to offer a few opinions. I love that we don't all have to agree on these things.
Becky

Clarence,
  Your observations parallel mine. This can also be carried to political life, the so-called exclusive domain of the republican party as the home for the Christian right.  Yet the Sermon on the Mount as Jesus taught was anything but right wing politics! Personally, as a Vietnam veteran, my motto is I love my country, but I don't trust my government. And this seems to be the motivation of the framers of the Constitution, fugitives from the English church-state.  Now we have the popular consumer culture of the good old USA, which has become the mecca for this burgeoning Christian pop culture of music and literature, consistent with K-Mart quality.  I encourage folks to read the classics, the bible of course, but add some Dostoevsky, a little Melville, some CS Lewis, a bit of Shakespeare. Just as junk food warnings are becoming more necessary for health, a junk culture warning is in order for Christians today.  Bravo for mithandir's insights!  Wanted: original christian thinkers for an unprecedented conformist culture!
<out of the box>

Very interesting Wayne!  Also, it's great to have you post here, I wish you would do it more often.

I couldn't agree with you more about politics.  A few years back, I couldn't imagine how a Christian could be anything other than a republican.  Republicans were right, Democrats were wrong, and the third parties were wronger or less right, depending on which one.   ???

Curiously, when I became free of The Assembly, my mind was able to ponder things in a different way---out of the box, as you say----and I haven't been a republican since 1999.

I would love to hear what is happening with you, especially with the international experience that has undoubtedly shaped your views.

One thing for sure,  even when we are absolutely convinced we know the "right" answer to something, we know nothing as we ought.   (not to say we don't know anything, but that we almost never know as much as we think we do.)

Brent

See comments above

Hi all, would you say that this group of people are taking the CCM argument to extreme, or is their point right.

One thing they continue to mention is who the aritist state influnce them, and from going to some of these concert I can verify that these people have said things on stage and played music of popular artist in the past and present.

http://www.corruptchristianmusic.com/home/ (http://www.corruptchristianmusic.com/home/)

Cheers, and I enjoy this posting a lot.
G

Robert, you are right the Fanny Crosby, and other "oldies but goodies" are not the end all.  There are a ton of artist today that write just a deep words (i.e., Fred Hammond, Excelsior, Michal Card, etc.).   There will always be men and women willing lift his name on high and exalt him in song, just that you might not find them for the most part being played on the radio regular.

Good thing about it, is that you normally will find their cds in the half off or less section of the store.   ;)

Cheers,
G

Music and Politics,

An interesting connection.

Politically, I've been a Democrat, a Republican, an Independent, with a short stint as a Socialist while in college.  

Actually, I am a Christian who votes according to my conscience, which I like to think is Biblically informed.

This morning I was on a weekend getaway with Caryl.  I turned on the tv to a cable station, and they were showing a banquet of a group of Iowa Democrats that took place Saturday evening.

The crowd was being warmed up by a comedian who was doing a George W. Bush impersonation.  The joke he told, in a GWB voice, went:

We went to war with Iraq to preserve religious freedom.  That's right, religious freedom.

We are fighting to protect the rights of Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, and Muslims.  

That's right, we are fighting to protect their rights.

Their right to reject the one lord and savior, Jesus Christ.

The crowd thought this was uproarously funny, and howled with laughter. Th comedian recieved a big round of applause.

  I sat there with  a dull, sick feeling spreading through my
"guts".  I have talked to many of these "liberal" folks who aren't religious at all and ascribe to the current ideas on separation of "church" and state.

But these were all leaders and big contributors to the Iowa Democratic organization.  Their mockery of Christ was quite open.

I am not under the illusion that all Democrats agree with them, nor that being a Republican corresponds with godliness.  

But I won't be voting with these folks real soon.

Thomas Maddux

Interesting site.  It seems to be a mixture of lots of sad truths about many of these artists, along with conspiracy-theory type logical fallacies.  That type of stuff tends to turn me off, even if there is some truth to what they say.

I did notice that I don't like most of the artists on their lists.  Of the ones I do listen to, I only like some of their songs, usually because they have songs that are just weird.

Interesting comments all
In re: to politics, I have found myself leaning more toward the left as I get older.  I used to be hardcore, right Republican (as any good evangelical Christian should be! ::)).  However, as I examine issues, I truly find it hard to understand what being a Christian has to do with being "pro-gun, capitalistic, or agreeing with Rush Limbaugh."  I am not saying you can't be a Christian and not support these things.  However, the looks of consternation I get from fellow Christians when I say I'm for instance, an environmentalist, is quite amusing.  I see things on both sides of the political spectrum that I agree with.  I'm a virulently pro-life environmentalist who does not trust the government, so what does that make me??

Continuing the CCM thread, I think too much emphasis is put on the artist's lifestyles.  People are devastated when someone like Amy Grant gets divorced or Sixpence None the Richer says "we are not a Christian band." The bottom line is that many Christians cannot separate the art from the musician.  I will be honest, there are HEATHEN musicians (i.e. Smashing Pumpkins A.K.A Zwan,  Tori Amos) whose music I listen to, well because I think it is great and artistic music.  Do I condone their lifestyles? No.  But can people tell me that I shouldn't listen to music because of the type of person who makes it? I don't think so.  In that case, anyone who loves to the "oldies" stations better quit listening and get out their old Pat Boone records.  You think the Beatles were in a normal mindset when they wrote their music?  How about Frank Sinatra's lifestyle, what about him?  Elvis?????? Guess how many Christians who diss these modern groups listen to their stuff.  What about the old school composers? Remember Mozart?  The point is if you can't enjoy music for what it is, I think you are missing out.  That said, I know people won't agree with me.  Clarence raised a good point about CCM being "glamourized." See very many ugly Christian artists these days? They all are cute, perky, and sing pre-manufactured tripe from the Nashville music machine.  Just check out the liner notes sometime.  A lot of the artists don't write their own stuff or play anything.  

That website that was  brought up is kinda laughable.  If I want conspiracy theories, I'll get out my X-files collection.  The efforts we Christians make to tear each other down is amazing.  I believe firmly the Church is it's own worst enemy.   The Church puts way too much emphasis on people in places of "prominence," whether they be singers, preachers, or politicians.  


If Geftaky's downfall has taught all of us one thing, it is that we should know better than adhere to this creedo.  Men will fail us, God will not.

And yes Becky, City on a Hill is awesome, mainly because of the people behind it.  For an awesome worship Cd, go get Glassbyrd.

And one final point, does anyone remember the "Thief in the Night" movie series from the 70s?  It came out around the time of the Jesus Movement.  I remember seeing it as a 6 year old kid in my local Methodist church and being traumatized about missing the rapture.  And I thought some of the assembly propoganda was bad!

Off the soapbox, back to work.  Hope I didn't horrify anyone with my rantings!

Noel

The thing that makes politics between conservatives and liberals so difficut is that there is such a divide on moral issues, especially abortion, homosexual adjenda, and the place of religion in society.

There are also some very basic assumption differences between the two groups as to whether one should read a historical document (whether a Bible or a Constitution) and take the writer's intent or read into the document the sensibilities of modern (or more exactly postmodern) society.

I, for one, started voting based solely on the one issue I understood - the pro-life position that we need to support the needs of the baby as well as the woman.

Over the years, I educated myself on other issues (gun control/2nd ammendment, Great society welfare vs. Compassionate conservatism, big business trickle down vs. government regulated distribution of wealth, etc.) as well and formed opinions.

However, it is the blataint moral/religious ones that keep me living in the conservative camp.  When I pick up books by liberal spokesmen (who all seem to be comedians these days) and I see the blatant hatred they express towards God (e.g., the mocking Supply Side Jesus), I have a hard time attempting to listen to what they have to say.

I know we conservatives have Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter who get pretty sharp (and occasionally nasty) with their wit, but at least they are not trashing Jesus Christ.

If I had to, I could live happily in a gunless society with socialized medicine with my higher salary being redistributed to help the poor.  But, I just cannot have any part with the Liberal disregard of human life and unwillingness to be open to solutions that would help both mother and baby as well as their stand on other important moral issues.

Noel,

The Thief in the Night Series was shown as an outreach in Tuscola several times. We set up in a big tent on the main drag in town.

It was terrifying on many levels. I don't think anyone was saved after watching those films and I'm betting a lot of Christians were second guessing their choice after viewing!

I spent a lot of my childhood expecting to have to hide out during the Great Tribulation. When I spent a summer at Steve Irons' home I spent some time dropping dry ice into coffee cans full of dried beans earmarked as provisions for Christians in hiding during the tribulation. (Margaret, correct me if that is not the case. I remember doing that with Danny several afternoons.)

Growing up in fear and dread. What fun.

Scott

It depends what you mean by environmentalist.  When I was in the Boy Scouts in the 1960's, we used to call it Ecology which basically means, we be good stewards of the Earth.   We recycled, respected nature, left the animals alone, didn't take more than we needed, cleaned up after ourself.  If we are going to cut trees, we have a plan to replenish the trees, etc.

If that is environmentalism, I think 95% of people would agree with you.  Most people think that we should have general plans to care for the world about us.

Unfortunately in recent decades, the term also includes a philosophy/religion that elevates nature and animals to the place of man and higher than man.   It sees man, not as created in the image of God, but a problematic part of the Panthiestic balance.  The AIDS epidemic and aportion, for instance, is a good thing because it cuts back man - who is WAY out of balance and brings nature back into harmony.

If environmentalism simply mean being a good steward of the Earth, I think we would all be on board.  However, the religious/philosophical overtones of the movement is probably why you get the odd looks at church.

Dave S,

I agree with your perspective of the conservative vs liberal debate. The ideal would be to have a benevolent dictator, but that seems almost impossible in a world full of corruption. The Nigerian President ObaSanjo is a Christian, and is the best thing that has happened to Nigeria. GG attempted to get audience with him on his last visit to Nigeria. I guess that probably helped to strengthen GG's image as a Christian leader. Anyway, when voting one has to almost chose the least of the evils. I personally would lean to the conservative mind-set, though I understand that Jimmy Carter was a Democrat, in which case I would have likely voted for him. The American system does have the advantage of being able to vote for the President and also vote for the 'local' representative. In Canada we vote for the local guy and the leader of the party with the most votes ends up being PrimeMinister. Also, Canada is very liberal. Even the conservative party is right wing liberal.


Scott, that was for Y2K! ;D

Lord bless,
Marcia

We watched that movie at camp the year that Iraq invaded Kuwait.  At that time, all the adults were talking about how this was the beginning of the end.  

That was not the first "end times" movie I had seen at a teen event.  Every time we had to watch one of those, I would get physically ill and have to leave.  Growing up, I had learned to control my emotions and usually I was always able to analyze and override my initial emotional reaction to stuff.  However, when it came to those movies, they absolutely terrified me.  

Preparation for that time was the excuse for a lot of the hard core child training in my home growing up.  The fear of the actual end times themselves and the fear of not being spiritually ready, being an “overcomer”, was an ever-present reality and motivator in my world as a child.

My grandmother had a metal garbage can full of beans in the lecture hall.  It had a table cloth over the top and they set a lamp on it to make it look like an odd sized round table.  

It took a long time for me not to be terrified of the end times and eternity.  

It depends what you mean by environmentalist.  When I was in the Boy Scouts in the 1960's, we used to call it Ecology which basically means, we be good stewards of the Earth.   We recycled, respected nature, left the animals alone, didn't take more than we needed, cleaned up after ourself.  If we are going to cut trees, we have a plan to replenish the trees, etc.

If that is environmentalism, I think 95% of people would agree with you.  Most people think that we should have general plans to care for the world about us.

Unfortunately in recent decades, the term also includes a philosophy/religion that elevates nature and animals to the place of man and higher than man.   It sees man, not as created in the image of God, but a problematic part of the Panthiestic balance.  The AIDS epidemic and aportion, for instance, is a good thing because it cuts back man - who is WAY out of balance and brings nature back into harmony.

If environmentalism simply mean being a good steward of the Earth, I think we would all be on board.  However, the religious/philosophical overtones of the movement is probably why you get the odd looks at church.

I understand what you are saying.  Yeah, the PETA wackos and their ilk are not my cup of tea.  I am just sick of the lack of responsibility that especially corporate America has towards developing new technologies to clean up the environment.  I mean the gasoline engine was a great thing, but it is over 100 years old. We Americans are just so indulgent and want everything cheap and easy, including our gas!  But I'll save my anti-SUV rant :)....I am an environmentalist in the truest Boy Scout sense of the word.  

Lol, I do remember the whole Jesus is coming mentality in the early 80s and how we are to prepare for the end of the world.  It was even more frightening in the assembly because of, as Rachel pointed out, the whole "we could miss the kingdom" philsophy.  Thief in the Night is a great camp classic.  I think it is even better than that awful "left behind" movie with mr. growing pains!  talk about another Christian effort at "art." Yikes!

Scott, I was at the Iron's for a summer.  We didn't do any end times preparation that I recall, maybe it wasn't vogue at the time.

Dave and I are both Eagle Scouts.  Once when we were both attending the same evangelical church we attended their men's retreat.  It was held up in the mountains, at Idylwild.

We went for a walk together...and got lost!  

We eventually figured out how to get back to the camp.  I remember that we practiced our survival skills together.

At a Hot Dog stand.

Thomas Maddux

I am the founder, president, chairman of the board and sole member of PETVIBE.

(People for the Ethical Treatment of Viruses and Bacteria)

This organization has plans to demonstrate in protest of the murder of millions of innocent viruses and bacteria by the evil members of PETA.  These people have taken their children to the evil medical profession for vaccinations.

These vaccinations are a government sponsored genocide program against innocent microbes, which after all are just trying to find something to eat!

 ;)

Thomas Maddux

Two thoughts that coincide are the following.
When does a nation give up its freedoms?
When fear drives them to have someone protect them at any cost.
When does a believer give up their rights? The very same reason.

Homeland Security. Now that people from other countries are required to undergo more and more scrutiny and hotel lists are checked with MC and Visa records and of course every corner store has a camera and the ATMs as well. People are worried that their freedoms are being eroded under the guise of security. We lost the right to freedom when those who lead us stopped being an example. The loss of Judeo Christian values and the loss of respect for authority I believe go hand in hand and now the only way to protect society is to monitor their moves because the moral conscience of society does not restrain them anymore.

Abuse of power is possible but we brought it on ourselves by not working on family values and by not reinforcing our respect for basic authority be it the local police or the school teachers etc.. With regards to stopping terrorism we are now in reaction mode. If we have freedom of anonymity for everyone it helps the terrorist go undetected. If you profile people then you run the risk of discrimination against innocent parties. The only way to avoid this is to have fool proof ID that must be carried by everyone and cannot be forged. No ID no entrance. This unfortunately ushers in a good excuse for the Mark of the Beast but what can we say when God's love no longer controls people's hearts we have to have a law to protect everyone and some day to quote someone we all know well they will be saying "Thank God for the Devil" sad but true the wolf will be guardian to the sheep.

In the Assembly we gladly gave over our God given rights to someone who said to us this is the way follow me. I know the bible better than those Seminarians and Doctors of divinity and I have a new revelation from God. It is the Testimony to Jesus.

Scott and Chris -

Yep, we were in survival mode in the Irons house (aka the House of Peace!).  Betty provided us with at least $1000 worth of Neo Life freeze dried food, told us to buy beans and rice etc. in bulk for storage, etc.  Even though Beth Alex and I were on the Gerson and dragging through each day, we too were out there putting dry ice in coffee cans of beans.  Needless to say, we returned all that outdated food when we left.  I am so sorry, you guys, that we perpetuated such paranoia and ruined numerous summers for a bunch of kids.

Ha! :D You must have forgotten that I spent most of the time I was supposed to be stocking food in a dirt clod war with Danny! Now that was fun.

Until you came out and threatened us! ;D What a mean mom to not let us peg each other with dirt!

It wasn't that bad (cept when I was sick).

Scott

Hugh,

Yes, YES, YES!!! and YES!!!

absolutely.  I could not agree more.  These are exactly the sort of conclusions that I have come to regarding politics, conservatism, etc.

I can't ever see myself voting for a Democrat, and I vote for the Republicans less than half the time.  I will not vote for George Bush in the next election, and didn't vote for him in the last one.

What I want is a political system that will leave me alone, and provide a framework wherein we can exercise our God given rights to Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

--- As for protection, I will have to protect my own, and must choose to what extent I trust my Heavenly Father to do this for me, as opposed to providing locks on doors, earthquake-safe construction and weapons.  Some people are content riding a motorcycle to work, others want to be safer.  Some people don't lock their doors, others have alarms.  It should be my choice, not the governments!---

This, in by book, means murder is wrong, laws that restrict ownership, movement, education, discrimination, sexual preference(note I said preference, not assualt) and that in any way restrict my right to worhsip God in the way my conscience dictates are wrong.  

Furthermore, taxation of the successfull, in order to buy the votes of the lazy infringes on my pursuit of happiness!---please note that I am totally in favor of helping the poor.  However, I think God is rather more pleased with cheerful givers, and not forceful redistribution of wealth---

The fact that so many today don't know what freedom is, let alone what it costs, coupled with the slouching, base culture we have engineered, is cause for great concern.

Unfortunately, I see the "conservatives," as being just as complicit in this destruction as the liberals.  They are merely chipping away at opposite ends of the foundation.  

The key to all of this is to learn to be content in whatever state we find ourselves in.  Grace!  Oh Lord, I need it!  

Brent

Scott -
 
Yep, totally forgot.  Good for you guys!!

And yeah, when you were sick, that was bad.  Under Betty's wise tutelage, you were to be considered malingering, treated accordingly, etc.  What idiots we were to let her completely override our own common sense, especially when it came to "discerning" people's motives, which she did all the time with us.  I am so sorry.  It is amazing that you still have faith in God, Scott, after all the garbage done in His name.  Probably the genuineness of your parents has something to do with it, bless their hearts.

Faith in Jesus Christ has never been an issue.

Faith in what I was taught about how He relates to His people, how He speaks, what He expects, etc. is what has been in question.

That's kind of weak, but I'm trying to sneak this post in at work. Guess I'm not always a faithful steward! ;)

S

I read Cal Thomas' book Blinded by Might when it first came out and I heartily recommend it.  I have always wrangled over the issue of the relationship between one's religious views and political actions (or lack thereof).

In the assembly we attempted to regulate holiness with GG's directives.  Is it any better to attempt that using the government?  On the other hand, isn't it inconsistent to believe one way and vote another way?  I don't know yet.

I do know that what this country needs is a widespread revival, and only God can do that!

Jack

Margaret:

I actually didn't have all bad experiences during my 1987 stay.  I have good memories of playing basketball, burning the morning oatmeal, and going to the beach.  It gave me my real sense of independence even if I had to deal with "encouraging" roommates and daily homesickness.  Plus, after seeing firsthand the whole system in Fullerton, it cinched the deal for me that I could not wait until I could get out of the assembly.  So God definitely used that experience to show me the path to eventual freedom a few years later.  The crazy thing is that you when you guys left a couple of years later, my assembly spin doctored your exit in their normal fashion.  I was skeptical to say the least.

Noel

Go the beach and play basketball! What the heck? I pulled weeds and swept the driveway. But I'm guessing you had a whole lot better attitude than I did. ;D

I did have a lot of fun with Danny. And I enjoyed sneaking out for a walk every night, too. Oops. Let that one slip. The trick was to time it just right and make sure Beth wasn't peeking out her window to check and see if my light was on! ;)

By the way, Margaret, the Assembly spin on you guys after you left filtered all the way through the Tuscola assembly to an AK who had left his parents behind and made its way to my ear.

I told him it was a lot of garbage. >:( Even after several years free of the Assembly it was easier for him to blindly accept their spin than to stop and consider it objectively. He still vaguely sticks to George=Bad, Assembly=Good because his parents are still involved in a George free, Assembly type fellowship.

You might even recognize him since he spent a summer in your home. Think he'd know better. :(

Scott

Scott, the assemby spin on why and how we left was so powerful that most people still do not want to speak to us, even if they left years ago themselves.  Even people we were close to (or thought we were...).

Dear Tom,

I would like to make a donation to PETVIBE as quickly as possible. I give regularly to PETFAV(People for the eithical treatment of fruits and vegetables) but PETVIBE seems to be a cause perhaps more worthy than PETFAV. But it makes sense that those who mistreat fruits and vergetables would also be mistreating microbes. Those who see themselves as important usually abuse those smaller than themselves.

In a recent study done at the University of Colorado, it was found that apples literally scream in terror as they are pulled towards the mouth. The heart wrenching cry that exudes from them once they are bitten into is enough to make one swear off fruits for ever. In another study done on grapes it was found that a whole chorus of screams can be heard as they are so horribly devoured.

One of the most terrible things descovered was the multiple screams of an artichoke, as it's leaves were pulled off one by one and dipped in butter and then devoured by some uncaring soul, thinking more about his stomach than the life of a precious artichoke. So many carrots, so many beets, so many persimmons!! Mistreated and abused, and "used" by us for our own pleasure!! Can anything be more disgusting!! And if this be the case, think of the lowly microbe, injected into a human bloodstream, ready to be devoured by those ghastly anti-bodies that inhabit our human systems!!

I'm starting to hyperventilate as I think about it. I've got to go lie down now.


--Joe

The Irons' were even worse in the "way" they left than I was!

Personally, I view it as a badge of honor, sort of like bearing stripes for Christ.  However, there are some differences, namely that our bad judgement got us into the mess, not our faithfulness.  Nevertheless, Steve played a powerful role in Suzie and my deliverance, when we read the story,  "How it came about that the Irons Left the Assembly."

The spin stopped spinning about halfway through to story.  I was also somewhat shocked to realize that one of the main issues had to do with Lee,  and that the brothers who stood against Steve lost their firstborn to the world, whereas Lee is a faithful minister of the gospel.  

Very ironic, very sobering.

Brent

I felt kind of 'betrayed' by your departure from the Geftakys assembly scene. Of course, we so trusted those who had the rule over us, that we believed the 'white??' lies we were fed. Actually I found out about your leaving quite by accident. Maybe we weren't told, because they wanted to slow down the exodus. I found out later that quite a number used the Irons' departure as an opportunity to leave the assembly. For some reason I sensed that something was wrong, and when I asked, the 'worker' told me that the Ludwigs had left in Chicago, but held back on informing me about your departure. We were told lies about Lee. We were told lies about Margaret ie she was using psychological methods to counsel as opposed to Biblical (that I heard from GG himself). Margaret, when I learned of the Irons' leaving that was one time I wept; the other was when my brother left the Lord. After a while I got used to the fact that people come and go.

I agree with Brent. It is an honor to be out and stand against Geftakysism. If the Lord Jesus rebuked the leaders of His time for their hypocrisy, I rebuke any existing assembly-sympathiser as well.

Lord bless,
Marcia

On edit, I am referring specifically to the men mentioned in the story.  I am not suggesting that everyone in the Assembly lost their firstborn to the world.  However, the majority of the Fullerton leadership did....I'm having trouble thinking of one that didn't.  I'm sure there are, I just can't think of who.  Also, these kids are in their twenties and thirties now, those from Steve and Margaret's story.

Brent

Just about  the greatest indictment of those in Fullerton charged with leadership is the way in whcih they knowingly participated in the conspiracy to defame, derogate, and slander the Irons at the time of their departure. The unspeakable viciousness, depravity, and wicked premeditation of this bunch is illustrated by the calculating choice of an allegation of witchcraft agaisnt Margaret. And some of you get indignant over my expressed contempt for this cabal?!
I want to know how many of them have apologised to Steve and Margaret.
These men all knew Steve Irons and had served with him for many years. Anyone mistaking their bahavour for plain sutpidity as opposed to subterfuge is foolish. It is, and has alway been my contention that these men got to a point where they knowingly engaged in wicked and despicable behaviour. Let them give their lying excuses to Jehovah.  Do any of you think God is not going to hold them to account? They are already judged.
I believe the Lord allowed this to happen to Steve and Margaret exactly for the purpose of opening thier own eyes to the horror of what they had been involved with for so many years. It was unquestionably a stroke of His mercy and indicative of His favor to them...of course, they too could have continued to compromise...they chose not to...

p.s it was the dedicated strategy of Geftakys and Co, to completely defile, defame, and ultimately destroy anyone around him with the potential to challenge him- unless of course you demonstrated that you were willing to absolutely prostitute every principle to his expressed will. Some people do not like to hear me say this but that is just too bad. Anyone serving with George Geftakys over any length of time was by definition compromised. Let them argue with their conscience, whatever is left of it!
 Look at what they did to a man like Jim Hayman...a man I used to admire...


Poignantly Poetic! Lee's potential terrified George and so he had to try to destroy him. The other brothers participated because misery loves company...
Verne

The Lord sent you(the Irons') and MarkC and TomM and DaveS and Brent and Verne and others ahead to prepare for the day when us ex-Gaftakysites would need your help, even as Joseph from the OT was sent ahead to Egypt to prepare for the day when his family would need food in a time of famine.

I find that the only thing I have in common with those who remain "in" is that we are saved. Besides that any communication is on a 'social' level "Cold, isn't it?" "How was work today?" "Are you liking your new home/car/??" Or it ends up being on discussions about assembly matters which we disagree on, so we do not want to go there.  I am happy to make new friends now that I have gotten the message that I am to be excluded.

Lord bless,
Marcia

My cousin, and former AK, Robert Beasley formed a band called Fourth Normal Form (I’m sure that means a lot more to Stephen, Lucas and company than it does to me). The band includes his four sons and they play a mix of Christian and secular music.

Amazing family. Check it out.

http://www.4nfband.com/

Scott

Verne, we have made contact with Mark and Tim, and neither of them have apologized.  Tim G. said to Mark that they do not owe Steve any kind of apology.  Earl Summerville apologized after he left a few years ago.  We have not had contact with any of the others.

Brent, Tim's daughter Elizabeth and her husband Matt are attending a Calvary Chapel.

Yes, I know.

Elizabeth told someone,  "Chuck Smith is everything my grandfather isn't."  

Heavy sarcasm to follow:

Steve and Margaret, why should Tim Geftakys or Mark Miller have to apologize to a witch, especially one that is counseling people in a strange way?  Shouldn't you be the ones to apologize to them?

Steve was trying to destroy the Body of Christ, the Testimony to Jesus, when you guys left.  Shoudn't he be the one to apologize for the horrible way he conducted himself, slandering George by saying he was abusive?  Don't you think the sin of witchcraft is bad enough? ;)

Brent

This is an attempt to get this bi-polar thread back on track, the subject being Contemporary Christian Culture.

I am going to recommend the following book with a warning:  do not read this book if you are in the middle of a spiritual crisis!  In other words, if you KNOW you are redeemed, and KNOW Jesus Christ, and are looking for answers to, "How did this happen,"  "What was I thinking?"---then read this book!

If you aren't sure what you believe, or are almost convinced that God is a sham, or that all religion, including Christianity is a joke, then DO NOT read this book!

The True Believer," by Eric Hoffer

For those that have read this book, you will know what I am talking about when I make the following statement:

A large part (not all!!!) of contemporary Christain Culture is a mass movement, not unlike many others in past 200 years.  The vocabulary is different, but the thinking (or lack thereof) and the action is the same.

In a mass movement, people sacrifice freedom, individuality and critical thinking, in order to be part of a holy cause that transcends the importance of any one person, or even a large number of people.  (sound familiar?)

In this type of environment,  where our minds are not "free to roam," art, music, education and the like are going to degenerate into their baser forms.  As the mass movement winds down, an underlying cynicism takes over.  The goods are not being delivered by the cause and its leaders, yet the members of the movement are still not free to regain their individuality and freedom.  The cause remains holy, but is temporarily sidetracked by the leaders.

In this type of culture, people are interested in diversion, and things that make them feel differently.  Any type of poetry or writings that demand action in a direction away from the mass movement's approved behavior will not be understood by the masses, or will be suppressed by the leadership.

I believe the above is one of the main reasons for the current state of what we are calling Contemporary Christian Culture.  Again, please don't misunderstand what I am saying, I am in no way saying all Christendom is worldly!

Read the book, be disturbed for a few days, and then chime in with what you think.  We could talk about this for months.  Freedom has a tremendous ability to clear the mind and energize us!

Brent

WoW....I was just going to post my thoughts on the CD's I bought friday nite at Borders ....and alot has taken place.. Brent the book recommendation is appreciated...Well I bought some Christian CD's two of which had one song that I liked I figured this was the price I had to pay and I did'nt mind because they Blessed me with their work... now on the Wow CD I'll admit out of 33 songs I only really like around 10 if even that ..Music is art and its a matter of taste..some only like Classical , etc...I have to agree with Marcia on her views as I have 2 teens...and some of the songs  do sound the same and are sugery sweet...I'll recommend Jeremy Camp...song:I STILL BELIEVE...(I still believe in your Faithfulness,etc..) I'm sure I probibly can't type out all the Lyrics...another..is MERCY ME...SONG: WORD OF GOD SPEAK...(word of God speak would you pour down like rain washing my eyes to see Your Majesty) These two songs are worth my money ... and on the Wow cd I have always loved Breathe...by Rebecca St James...(This is the air I breathe..Your holy presence living in me) it goes on and is Beautiful....Margaret when I read what happened to you I'm very grieved....yes as I'm sure the Lord is Very Grieved over this... consulation and ccomfort are Yours in the Lord...and Thank-You for the Reflections Site it has been a Blessing to me...re: found it 9/4/03....a verse that is close to my heart...The Lord is Near to the Broken Heart and saves such that be of a Contrite Spirt....Ps 34:18 and What shalll we say to these things? If God be for us,who can be against us? Rom 8:31....And Clarence do you know what it entails to travel across the Country booking venues,staying in Hotels, airfare ,coordinating a Free concert.....this is after Studio time rehearsing, mixing, photo shoots,etc..Yes  a simpel Free concert can be given but to do anything on a Large Scale with the Quality you speak of someone has to come up with some moolah...Now my sons friend is in the worship band and his friend gives him guitar lessons ..I've offered him formal lessons ..but he prefers to jam with his friends and learn that way.. the church also offered a Free Guitar Class...I think it was a 6 or 8 week class ...My daughter has stepped in to sing when needed....its interesting everything you brought up...I had a difficult time moving to comtemporary...also. other then Wendy and Mary years ago who folded I saw Mary Rice when my children were small doing a kids show... and Keith Green in '85 about a week before he died...i was blessed Dylan was saved about  the time I had rededicated my Life....I remember being called on the carpet for Harboring a Carly Simon Album...I had to toss it "Bonfire of the Vanitys" so to speak they said how could I have this immoral womans album in the house etc..you know the rest..Funny thing is I think they were Great Mozart Fans hummmm if I recall correctly  he had some issues ..See its all a matter of Taste ..Beauty is in the eye of he Beholder..Art is Art..Thats what makes us all unique is our different Tastes... After all were not Robots...how Dull would it be if we only liked the same things...Gods Creation all around US...is Art....And Scott I remember when I was Young never telling my Mom I was bored if I ever did as I learned she'd say You can always pull weeds...good one huh...and just a thought ..I prided myself in only getting I think  one consequence that I can remember it was for leaving a Spoon out it cost me 25 cents... I told my daughter this and she pointed to a spoon I had left on the Table the other day and we both laughed...(ok I may have had 2 consequences..but I dont remember ..he, he)...

I prided myself on getting about one consequence every 30 minutes! 8) No really.

Scott

Just, FYI, "Fourth Normal Form" is a term used in relational database theory that is used when folks design relational databases (Microsoft Access is an example of a relational database).  It basically means, among other things, that you are not storing the same data in two different places in the database.  I have no idea what it means as it relates to music.

Hi, Dave,

I don't think it means anything as it relates to music. Robert is a professor of computer science (or something similar) at Franklin College and he thought it was cool. Maybe the four boys angle had something to do with it.

S

Brent,

I read Hoffer's book in the 1960's, and re-read it a couple of years ago.  It does describe many common elements of the way that people in cults and radical political movements think.

I don't agree that it is a good guide to what is going on in contemporary Christian culture.  This is because contemporary Christian culture is so huge, and so diverse, that it beggars description.

During my 43 years as a Christian, I have spent time with Charismatics, Deeper Life folks, Plymouth Brethren, Fundamentalists, Evangelicals, and of course, the One True Church of Fullerton. I have done quite a bit of study of Roman Catholicisim and church history.

Some of what Hoffer says is descriptive of some Christians in some forms of Christianity.   But there is much, much more to say about why people do what they do than Hoffer has said.


Nowadays I am involved with Biola and Talbot Seminary, and volunteer for Dr. Hugh Ross' Reasons To Believe ministry.

 I find that associating with and learning from folks like this to be encouraging, stimulating and uplifting.  Wonderful things are going on in the world of Christian scholarship.

So, I might have a somewhat broader perspective of what goes on in Christendom.   However, since we are people, we function out of the same psycho-physical makeup everyone else does.  Hence, some of what we do at times matches what other people do, as  described by Hoffer.

I agree with you that this is not a book for people undergoing a crisis of faith.  The reason for this is that this type of experience usually has strong subjective elements.  So, this book could lead to a lot of feeling-based subjective questioning.

If one can think objectively, Christian ideas are powerful and enabling.  We have nothing to fear from this book.   It is very insightful about people though.

Thomas Maddux

Summer007,

It would really help if you would use paragraphs when you post.  Many people, such as me, find it difficult to read 20-60 lines of running text on a computer screen.

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

Tom, I could'nt agree with you more .....I got carried away. My eyes are straining at the single spaces...Thanks...

I tried to be as clear as possible in my post that I am not ascribing the "mass movement" label to all of modern Christianity.  Unless a person has read the book, it is pointless to go past recommending the book, as I did below.

Nevertheless, just to make it clear, I am in total agreement with you.  However, there is a significant portion of CCC, mainly to part that is politically active, known as the Religious Right, (lots of Mormons in the Religious Right, but that is another topic) that are behaving as a mass movement.  

I'll cite a few specifics:

They believe they are better than everyone else,  "Let's bring God back in schools.  That will solve the problems."  

They believe that their ideas will "save" our crumbling culture, and that other ideas are from the enemy. "We need a constitutional definition of marriage, and a constitutional ban on abortion."  OK, I have a biblical view of both of these issues.  My wife was on staff at a pro-life crisis pregnancy center.  I have strong anti-abortion credentials.  However, passing these laws will not stop the behavior, but merely make it less convenient, like marijuana and murder.

They are willing to compromise their own principles, and overlook huge hypocrisy, in order to further the holy cause.  (willing to break a few eggs to make an omelette)  For example, some of the icons of the religious right have huge skeletons in the closet, like gambling and adultery.  They are still in the vanguard of the movement.  Another example would be the way they use money to buy influence in politics.  

Anyways, read the book, think about it, and one can't help but see that a significant part of CCC is taking on Mass Movement characteristics.  Just look at the latest political polls, which show religion as being the main issue for a significant portion of the population.

Much more can, and hopefully will, be said.  

However, please be perfectly clear that I do not pretend that all of CCC is simply as mass movement.  I am involved with a bunch of people who are clearly not a part of that!  Nevertheless, it is a growing segment of our religious population.

Brent

Well said Brent.

The project of passing laws to force unsaved people to behave as if they were committed Christians is doomed to failure.  Never had a chance.

However, I think that in the opinion of most folks on the Left, anyone who believes in God and opposes abortion IS the religious right.

Thomas Maddux

Yep.  What scares me even more than these folks' anti-christian bias, is that the "religious right," is doing everything they can---albeit unwittingly---to validate the claims made by the liberal, secular humanists, Godess worshipers, et al.

Chrisianity is not about a mass of people, or a cultural "world view," but about individuals and true freedom.  

The story about the comedian warming up the crowd before the Democrat debate gave me the chills.  Can you imagine what could happen if these people were able to have their way?

The only thing worse is if an amalgamation of Christians, Mormons and Catholics ran the government, and dictated their ideas upon us.

Brent

I have left off responding on this topic because I wanted to sit with it awhile...........

So........here goes.........

Most of the people on this BB have come from a system of "extremes".  And then, having left, perhaps moved to the "other extreme."  

I have a particular viewpoint on this subject.......having been raised.......not in a christian home......but in an artistic, musically bent home.  My mother was a guitar teacher for most of my childhood.   She was always in a band (not to my musical taste, but it paid the bills.)

Having come from an artistic, musically based home, I have a particular bent as to how music plays a part in our lives.  My mother played bluegrass (she didn't like it........her taste was more folk.......but as I said, it paid the bills), my sister, a year older than me, was always on the cutting edge of music.....Elvis Costello, The Police, Joe Jackson, The Clash....BEFORE they were popular.  I was mainstream pop......Kenny Loggins, Elton John, The Eagles.  But music had a place in each of our lives.  Music moved us......it spoke to us.........it met us, each with a different style preference.......but music is what made us FEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEL!

I am beggered with words to describe what I want to convey.  One does not have to pick apart the mass produced media (whether Christian or secular).  It speaks to some.  Those who want to search for other media will find it!

To critique what "all" should do in the "artistic" world, is to be a snob.  My mother and sister never read music.  They are two of the most accomplished musicians (and they aren't "saved") that I know.  I treasure their friendship today.  They are teaching me VOLUMES.........of love.........acceptance.......FAITH.....Yes, I said faith!  And we have different musical tastes, but I don't have to tell them what is "acceptable" musically and what is not.

I probably haven't communicated what it was I wanted to...........but maybe some get it!

The problem Christianity faces today is that we are now a minority of Americans.  When we were the majority,  the laws that were enacted reflected our values.

Now, we are in a period of change where new laws and pseudo laws made by judges reflect the secularist majority's values.

We don't have a legal or political problem...we have an apologetic and evangelistic problem.  When the church was expanding rapidly in the early centuries there were several factors that influenced this:
1. Christian thinkers met the pagans on their own ground philosophically and defeated them.
2. Christians raised tens of thousands, (if not more), of female babies that were given to them instead of being "exposed".
This means that little girls were thrown out in the countryside to die because they weren't valued....until the Christians came along and said "give them to us."
3. Christians were courageous under persecution.
4. Christians were known and respected for their charitable acts.

We need to "Occupy till I come".

Thomas Maddux

What is the story?

Jack

It sounds to me like what you are saying here is that many Christians today have forgotten how to adorn the doctrine...
Verne

Has anyone seen the Movie 'Mona Lisa Smile' I saw it over the weekend and could'nt help think of the Assm..certain things from 1953 at Wessely College and Harvard were errrily familar...I had a feeling when I went  it would be Assemblyish. A line in the movie referred to the alumni as "Elitist Icebox" ring any bells??? Julia Roberts seemed like a complete Hippie compared to their straightlaced ways..and a funny thing when she starts to teach them...They know more then she does....Just reminded me in a contrasting way of the Group..perhaps BG picked some things up in her College years in the 50's and applied them to us these past 30 years...(PG-13)

Mona Lisa Smile:

I didn't see it, but the piece below by Phyllis Schlafly portrays it as a propoganda piece where the liberty of the (then) new sensibilities of feminism is superior to the oppresive traditions of the 1950's.

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/phyllisschlafly/ps20031229.shtml

Dave, Thanks interesting review...Its funny that these are the same people that would easily toss what is it that Mr. Maddux said,"Tens of Thousands of Female babies out on the Streets"  note the Prov 31 Woman seemed to have it All...This is what we aspire to ey...This Movie was a Look of the Hypocrisy of the Elitist...The real Jones'es if you dont mind....If these females were easily disposed of ..Its time they stood up who wants to be with a bunch of Male Chavinistic Pigs!!!...Very Un-Christlike..ey...And by the way my Greatest  Joy is being a Homemaker although I have Business in the City several times a week...Works out quite nice....

Summer:
I heard Mona Lisa Smile was scary terrible.  Was it awful or were the critics just clueless?  
If it is really bad, I'm looking forward to renting it along with Gigli for my next bad movie night with my former roommate. ;D

Chrisnorton fan,  It was'nt as Bad as I thought it would be. I got a kick out of watching the hypocrites..Now  as far as Gigli I'd rather walk across broken glass then see that. Good choice for your Bad Movie Night...gag...

I would suggest watching "Dead Alive" (Brain Dead in the UK).  Billed as the goriest movie of all time, it features the main character utilitizing a lawn mower as a portable weapon in an attempt to deal with a room full of zombies.(http://www.buildingup.net/post/images/smiles/new_shocked.gif)

--
lucas

Has everyone noticed the cool little characters Lucas inserts in all his posts now?  In keeping with the spirit of discussing movies, I want to quote Jack Nicholson's Joker in the original Batman flick by asking:  "Where does he get those wonderful toys?" ;D ;D ;D

al

Hi Al, more than likely it is a image that he just linked to at a specific URL and shows up in the post (just like how I post the picture in my signature, and this one)  (http://www.gnjallen.com/matrix.gif)

Cheers,
G

Perfectly correct - my little database of them can be found http://www.buildingup.net/post/posting.php?mode=smilies (http://www.buildingup.net/post/posting.php?mode=smilies)

(http://www.buildingup.net/post/images/smiles/newsmilie1005.gif)

--
lucas

     Awesome-- I love the site.  Now somebody please 'splain to me how to transfer the images from there to here.  (Speak slowly and use small words!!!) ;D ;D ;D

al

This is getting annoying, it refuses to accept everything as text and wants to format it (http://www.buildingup.net/post/images/smiles/new_ukliam2.gif)

I might get around to writing a php script to accept name tags and output the graphic.....but until then, here are the easiest instructions i can muster ;)

1. Open the aforementioned link of http://www.buildingup.net/post/posting.php?mode=smilies

2. (I am assuming you are using a Windows based operating system) - Right click on any graphic you like.

3. Choose the bottom option of "properites" from the menu that pops up

4. On this property tab, you will see "Address [URL" - something similar to (http://www.buildingup.net/post/images/smiles/new_silly.gif)

5. Highlight this text, hold control and press "c"

6. Come back to your post, type ["img"], hit Control + V to past the address, then type[/"img"]

7.  For the example smilie, this will look like

["img"]http://www.buildingup.net/post/images/smiles/new_silly.gif[/"img"]

Make sure you remove the "s, I had to put them there to keep the software from formating it from text

I suppose the easiest thing to do would be for me to export my smilies and send them brian's way, but this will work till then

--
lucas

I found that doubling a bracket causes a single bracket to appear in the text literally.

[(http://www.buildingup.net/post/images/smiles/new_silly.gif[)]

A while back I found that quote tags in doubled brackets need to be paired or the software will malfunction.  I don't know if this has been fixed in this latest version of the BB software.

humm, interesting (and quite useful  ::))

--
lucas

Thanks, Fellers!

I have printed the info & will try later to figure out what it says & try to implement it.  If I succeed, I'll probably feel younger-- if not, I'll probably need Excedrin... ;D

al

I forgot to add this ..I've found a Jewel I'll share ....Get Ready...Its 'The Gospel Songs of Bob Dylan' --Gotta Serve Somebody...He does one with Mavis Stapels..Who raises the Roof...and if you want Heart-Stopping..Shirley Caesar does that in her rendition of You Gotta Serve Somebody. Then if you can handel it listen to Dottie Peoples do 'I Believe in You'...Theres more ...Sounds of Blackness,Chicago Mass Choir it goes on...Highly recommend it...Come, Let us reason Together/Jukebox. I think this one is up for a Grammy..I'll double check that ..Nite-All ..And have a Safe and Happy Martin Luther King Day!!!

     I've been meaning to ask:  Does anybody have an opinion about Thomas Kincaide, "painter of light?"
     When he first appeared on the scene several years ago, I was astounded at his talent in making light, in sheer brightness and with all the nuances of color, shade and shadow, appear on canvas.  It was uncanny and I was enthralled.
     He must be a multimillionaire by now, what with all the framed prints of his paintings, the giftshops full of verses and poems printed on plaques bearing his art, the book illustrations.  His impressions appear on dinnerware, accessories, you name it...  Several companies such as Lennox feature Kincaide creations on fine china collector plates and statuary.
     I don't begrudge him a cent of whatever gain he has made.  But it bothers me a bit the extremities of the market for his works.  For example, why would anyone want a 1/32 scale model semitractor-trailer rig with a Kincaide sunset painting printed on it?  Or an official baseball imprinted with one of his lighthouses against an evening sky?  The combinations just seem ludicrous...
     Your thoughts?

Al, I have an opinion on Kincaide.  I have seen his paintings and they don't do very much for me.  This is not to say that they are bad - it just means that where some people are vibrantly alive, I may be brain-dead.  Or, as Larry Niven (?) once said, "One man's cheese is another man's rotten milk."

But when it comes to the marketing of Kincaide, I fear that his artistic integrity (and perhaps to a lesser extent, his spiritual integrity) has become a victim of his own success.  It's obvious - Kincaide sells!  And his corporate handlers will pressure him to paint only those things that emulate his proven successes.  This is one reason why in my thinking, the most honest Christian art is done for free by men and women that are both truly spiritual, and highly trained.

And that reminds me of the most important thing I left out of my original post on this topic.  A Christian artist should be a man or woman of the Word.  He or she should be a theologian-in-training, always reading, letting the Word of Christ richly dwell within, that it may find artistic expression (see Colossians 3:16 for instance).  Even in fiction, poetry or lyrics, this depth of Scriptural understanding should be manifest.  Sadly, I don't see too much of this anymore in the stuff you can buy at a Contemporary Christian bookstore...

One last note.  I've been thinking about all of us on this bb, and we sure are a diverse, quirky, humorous lot.  I get a kick out of Lucas Sturnfield's picture of a cat-Earth eating a mouse-Moon.  And Scott, I finally found out who Ender Wiggin is...

mithrandir

Mith,

I agree with your ideas about Christian artists.

I like some of the Kincaide paintings because they have their intended effect on me.  The cozy little cottages, with their lighted, inviting windows calling out "home", "hearth", "warmth", produce the warm fuzzy feelings that he strives for.

However, when I take a rational look at his paintings, I think something like this:  This guy always places his cute little cottages next to streams, and they are always just a few feet above water level.  One good spring thaw or thunderstorm in the mounains in the background, and this place would look like Tujunga Canyon.

BTW, for anyone not familiar with the aforementioned canyon, it is an outlet for flash floods in the San Gabriel mountains near Los Angeles.  Dirt, rocks, broken trees, rusty smashed cars.

Thomas Maddux

Hi Tom,

I lived in La Crescenta (adjacent to Tujunga) for a while, and my wife is from La Canada (One city over from Tujunga).  

We looked down on Tujunga in scorn for reasons like the one you mentioned above.  However, did you know that there are many million/multi million dollar estates in the mountains above Tujunga?  Not only that, if you go uptream a ways, there is trout fishing, and if you go way upstream you enter into a rather prisitine wilderness area.

The wash is truly an amazing rock garden, with a number of used refrigerators, couches, various appliances and dented automobiles.  However, the canyon itself is nice.

Brent

You said the magic words and now I am compelled to go trout fishing this weekend.
Aint life grand?

So which one of you guys want to teach me how to trout fish?

I've got the bass, catfish, panfish, snook, shark, frog and crab down pat. Never been fly-fishing.

S

I'll take you anytime.  Wild trout can be caught within an hour's drive of my house.

Anyone who has ever fished with me has caught fish.  If you use bait I will push you into poison oak!  You must use a fly.  I don't care how many you lose in the trees, but if you fish with bait, or (gasp) a bobber  >:(  I will never take you fishing again.

Now, if YOU take ME fishing, you can fish whatever tomfool way you want!  However, we all know that fly-fishing is the proper way way to fish.

Brent

If I take you, we'll be wading in the Embarrass (say: em-brah) about 2 am, sliding our arms under tree stumps trying to find a big ol' catfish! Then you slip your hand in their mouth and rassle 'em out.

Now that's fishin'!

Actually, it's called hogging and while I've been invited to try it several times, I've passed because I'm a big sissy girl! Too many dang water moccasins in those muddy rivers!

Scott

Now that you mention it, I have heard of hoggin.  It does sound like a lot of fun, but it's not fishin....it's hogging.

Now,if we are talking ocean fishing, I have very little experience with large gamefish.  I tow a tuna lure on long sails,  and go lobster diving and spear fishing when at anchor, but I haven't even come close to catching a marlin.  THAT is fishing on another level altogether.

My fly fishing comments are strictly limited to fresh water.

BTW, what do you do with one of the catfish when you catch it?  Do you stand over it and taunt it, or does someone actually eat it?

Brent

If you're talking about hogging and catching cat, it's more of a taunting thing. Some of those suckers are over 20 pounds. Mean critters but not good eatin'.

However, if you're talking about straight catfishing you're eating good from about 1 to 3 pounds.

I'd like to do some spearfishing (it's really big around here) but the first time I ever went out with a tank I blew out my ear. Took about six months to heal.

Definitely want to learn to cast a fly, though.

S

When I was very young, my dad would take me and my brothers fishing on the Mississippi River - those are some great memories.  I used to catch Blue Gills with my bamboo pole and a red and white bobber.  I loved squishing the worms onto the hook and watching them wiggle.

Yep, good times in the Midwest.

And Brent, there's nothin' like breaded, fried catfish!

I have no problem with catfish, but one that has to be wrestled?  Do you know how much trash and filth that fish has eaten in its lifetime?  YUCK!

Give a one pounder from a clean lake, prepared by someone who knows what they're doing, and I agree, but a 40 pound filth-feeder?  No way.

Brent

Yep, they get to be kinda like carp at that point. Little earthy!

The rivers are for playing. Getting muddy. Canoeing. Camping. Jumping off railroad trestles.

The critters in there are fun to catch but not so much to eat - turtles being the exception. Now that's good!

Lakes are for fishing. Panfish for kids, Bass and Cat for the big boys!

I'm getting homesick. I'd get out into the rivers here but there are all kinds of venomous, flesh rending creatures around every corner. Gives me the heebie-jeebies! Course, all the people that grew up here don't think twice about it, so I guess it's what you're used to.

Scott

Scott,
You have my phone #, Let me know, I have plenty of extra gear

Wild trout are definately a fun challenge, they spook easy if they see or even hear/feel you.and are not like stocked areas where the trout see people every day.
Trout were introduced to popular Missouri springs in the late 1800s, but we have wild trout in secluded spring fed streams.
Fly fishing is my method of choice but I also use an ultra-lite in extreemly tight areas to reach the big boys. I love it and look forward to it. It is a skill that requires doing a lot of small things right.
My daughters orthodontist is in his 70s and a old Montana farm boy, he  loves talkin trout and tying flies.

Seems like once every 2 years you read in the paper about some retired old lady from New York who takes her poodle for a walk in Florida and some alligator ends up eating it.

You have to watch it in the spring. They don't attack people often but it's getting more and more crowded so that's going to change - kind of like the California Cougar situation.

In the spring, the big boys push all the smaller guys out of the water and they are ALL OVER the place looking for water. I mean in the ditches at Wal-Mart and the 18th green and your pool and your backyard. Everywhere.

Kinda cool but watch your kids and your yappy little mutts.

S

hi all,
Christian music.. now here's a good discussion.  Kimberley - unless i missed some posts.. it seems yours was the only one that really began to give a more open-ended perspective on things.  I can see where you are coming from Clarence - but I can't wholly agree with you.  Certainly there is an aspect of contemporary christian business that is disturbing to the conservative minded - but I believe this is much more due to a failure on the part of the traditionalists to communicate the message which all need to hear.  With each passing generation - changes happen in the next which undoubtedly upset and disturb the previous.  
The wonderful thing about the message of Christ is that it needs no set tradition for its communication.  In many ways - we saw this truth come to bear in the questioning of the assembly ways - and its particular nod toward practical implementation of new testament tradition.  What I have heard again and again since its (the assembly) general demise, is that the message of Acts is that God does not work through one method but many.  Would not this include the present situation in Contemporary Christianity?  I agree with you that packaging Christs message solely for corporate gain is wrong - in some cases severely so.  However, the fact is that thousands and thousands of young people who were deaf to the traditional message have found saving grace even through this commercialization, and though you or others may boycott the bookstores or despise the music, it serves a purpose which other avenues have failed.
As for music excellency.  I agree that it is important for the sake of music itself...  but seems to carry no weight mixed into a spiritual argument.  I myself love to play the guitar.  I wish i was more technically and theoretically sound... but i will pick up the guitar and play - regardless of whether or not i know the designation for the notes which i produce.  I play with two other guys in a band... and our band was not assembled for the purpose of mististry, but because we enjoy playing together.  The words i write in my songs are not necessarily odes to the scriptures, but are a reflection of all those things which are real to me.  what think you of this?

One of my favorite Christian songs of all time is "Jesus drop-kicked me through the goal posts of life"(just kidding--but it's an actual song)

Hey--got a question though regarding the posts below. There are differences between crocodiles and alligators. Someone told me that Alligators won't attack humans, but crocodiles will--is this true, false, or the other way around?

--Joe "lefty" Sperling

Joe,

Crocodiles are more likely to attack humans but probably more due to their larger numbers in more populated areas as opposed to just being more attracted to human flesh.

Possible exception being the "muggers" that live along stretches of the Nile. Nasty crocs with a learned taste for humans.

Gators are not likely to attack humans. I think the current stats are 9 attacks in the state of Florida in this century (something like that). But gators are not nearly as prevalent worldwide than crocs.

Scott "Crocodile Hunter" McCumber ;D

PS - Just checked. Thirteen known fatalities from alligator attacks in the documented history of the state of Florida.

Do you think that "typical" crocodiles being significantly larger than "typical" alligators might also have something to do with that they can eat.  A 20 foot long 2000 lb Nile crocodile is truly a frightening beast.

Dave,

Makes sense to me!

I do know gator tastes pretty good. Especially rolled in cajun spices and deep fried! Turnabout's fair play, ya know.

S

And for truly pointless trivia: The term alligator was introduced by Shakespeare in Romeo and Juliet (actually, he spelled it alligater).  Before then, the creature was usually refererd to by its spanish name 'legarto', without the article.  Later on, as many English words changed, the 'er' was changed to 'or' and we have our modern word alligator.

OK, Dave, I know why I know about gators, but what's your story?

Also, maybe we should move this to the Critters thread on the RFTW site?

S

When I was a child, we went on a vacation to North Dakota, and visited an alligator farm they had there.  The vague memories can then easily be researched using the internet.

Dave

A gator farm in North Dakota? That's different.

BTW, I have a friend whose young son has AS. Fortunately, they were able to get a diagnosis in 1st grade and have made adjustments that make it easier for him to do well in school, sports, etc.

S

I'm on a roll today.  Maybe I'll graduate from being "an up-and-coming poster" to being "full of posts."

But seriously, I want to address some concerns brought up by Joseph Reisinger and Kimberly Tobin.  First, I want to say that I am not necessarily condemning a particular style of Christian music or art (although I have definite preferences).  What I am condemning is the extremely low level of quality and the excessive commercialization of contemporary Christian culture (or CCC).  This commercialization severely corrupts and restricts the ability of CCC to communicate anything meaningful.

I mentioned what I see as the need for Christian artists to truly learn their craft, and I gave examples of things that a Christian writer or musician should know.  This was not for the purpose of forcing Christians to produce only the kind of art that was made two hundred years ago.  But rather, I believe that formal training forces the artist to think, and prepares him or her to innovate intelligently.  Those without this kind of training often make a mess instead of coming up with useful innovations.  I hope this helps. :)

But I do have another question for all of us.  We have talked about the corruption of  CCC, and we have talked about the marginalization of Christians in society.  We have also talked about the harm that's been done by the religious right.  What can a Christian individual - an army of one - do about these things to make a difference on a local level?

mithrandir

     This should go without saying, but I'll say it:  Pray without ceasing.  I don't project that any other venture should suffer for our taking time and exerting effort for prayer.  Rather, it is essential that we remember from whence cometh our help:  from the Lord.  For without Him we can do nothing, and our best intentions will come to nothing.

     Number one beyond the immediacy of prayer is the witness and testimony of our personal lives.  Do we have coworkers, clients, neighbors, even relatives who do not know of our faith in Jesus Christ?  We need not buttonhole each one and ram the Gospel down their throats, but we should be prepared to speak a good word in season or out of season.  Without the preparation of prayer and meditation upon the Person of the Lord, it is unlikely that we will recognize, much less seize, the opportunity to speak a word for Christ in the middle of a conversation about sports, fashion, politics or the weather.  An effective Gospel message is not the fruit of cleverness, but of true spirituality.

     Then we must seek a forum for which we are suited to speak to our community.  I like to write letters to the editors of several local newspapers.  I avoid talk radio programs, because most of them are controversial and are totally controlled by their so-called moderators, who often love to and are able to make callers look foolish.  If I were seeking to rally Christians to an idea, I would consider seeking a forum on a Christian radio or TV station, but they are often a strange mix of programming.  Good public forums are also afforded by City council meetings and meetings of school boards, zoning commissions, etc.

     We can also have an influence as consumers, by patronizing honorable merchants and voicing our objections to the ownership and/or management of objectionable businesses.  For example, I might tell a store manager that I disapprove of a display of objectionable material (e.g. magazines bearing suggestive cover pictures), and the reason for my objections.  Equally important and effective may be commending those who are doing good things.

     There must be many more suggestions...  I look forward to reading them...

al

P.S.--  I understand your emphasis, Mithrandir, but I'm not really crazy about the "army of one" concept...  My oldest daughter, a career soldier, disdains it as a refutation of the whole idea of teamwork...

Hi Summer,
I'm a Dylan fan, too. I've got his "Slow Train Coming".
I Believe In You is an awesome song. I think he wrote these in the time immediately after he became a believer, and they did boo him off the stage. I don't think he is writing anymore Christian songs, is he? Awesome, though; Dylan is a Jewish believer.  

When I was on my way to Ottawa to 'serve the Lord' as we put it then, in an airplane, Armand and Nancy sitting beside me, there was a magazine featuring Jim and Tammy Baker and their Christian theme park or whatever it was, and Tammy's lovely mascara job, anyone remember that?  Anyhoo, I remember Armand pushing the airline magazine in my face, disgusted by the worldliness.  Months later, when the dynasty fell (the Jim and Tammy dynasty) Armand posted a newspaper clipping on his fridge about it.  Jim got time, jail time and Armand grunted something or other about how well deserved that was.  Wonder if George is getting time.  Hope so.  Anyhoo, as Marcia has pointed out, in Ottawa, we weren't influenced by GG anyway.  So there's just no comparison, is there?
delila

Remember Keith Green?
I heard his music when I first came into fellowship.  I thought it was wonderful, uplifting, edifying.  I asked Tim Geftakys about it.  Big mistake.  They'd had a 'situation' with the singer.  He was blacklisted.  I got rid of my tapes.
delila

Delila,

What exactly was that 'situation' with Keith Green?

Jack

A "situation" with Keith Green?  I have his cassettes and are so uplifted by them...what kind of situation could Tim have had with him? ??? ???

I don't think there was an "situation" with Keith Green but the Stl LBs took issue with some  saints who were planning on helping out Last Days Ministry when Keith came to town. Some went anyway and a brother ended up letting Keith and Melody use his car to check out Stl. His opinion of Keith & Melody is basicly the same as Vernes.
My opinion, G-men did'nt want anyone to leave the assembly for another ministry. So there was a "situation". If anyone  knows differently, please bring it to light.
Mark K

When the second Teen Team came around they instituted a new rule.  No music could be brought, listen to or played except Christian and classical, not even oldies.  Some kids brought some Christian music with a distinctly alternative/grunge sound which upset most of the adults.  There was a brief time after that summer, in which they were trying to teach/institute a "standard" for music.  It had something to do with an idea that when the beat was on the second and fourth count it was ok; but when it was on the first and third it was inherently "dark" and sexual.  

(OK I am musically challenged and probably messing up the exact counts, beats, whatever.  The point was that every piece of music whether with Christian lyrics or not was evil based on its beat.  Therefore some Christian music was evil and should be banned.)

I don't know how far this teaching ever went; we never had money to buy CDs anyways so it was a moot point.  However, for a lot of people I think it was a really big deal.  I think Clarence may remember this teaching a little better and possibly could correct/clarify what exactly made music inherently defiling.  Jack Hanson was the one who spoke on it at the workers' seminar.  

Keith Green was always "ok" where I was, and as far as I can remember we were allowed to listen to him.  However, I may be remembering incorrectly.  Maybe because I really never got into music until after I got out of the assembly, this was never an issue I heard much about.  My brother listen to pretty much whatever he wanted and just didn't tell anyone about it.  

I do remember one brother being pretty floored when he caught my brother playing AC/DC on his guitar.

     A momentary aside:  Here is the homepage for Mel Gibson's upcoming film The Passion Of the Christ:

            www.thepassionofthechrist.com

     The general release date is Feb.25, 2004.
     I expect it to have a pronounced effect among the unsaved and among nominal Christians.  I intend to see it if for no other reason than to be able to discuss it knowledgeably with people who are moved by its content.

God bless,
al

Our church is going to have a special post-passion outreach.

Most of the pastors here on the Central Coast saw an advance showing of the movie, and the consensus is that it will change your life.  It is extremely powerful, and totally accurate.

My hope is that this movie will be a box-office blockbuster, and make tons and tons of money!  That will send a powerful message indeed.  I am going to see it ASAP.

Just imagine, an accurate portrayal of the life of Christ is the number one box office hit!   It will turn Hollywood upside down......let's hope.

Brent

Rachel,

Jack Hanson speaking on improper music.  Now that is funny/sad.

I can remember Jack being raked over the coals by your grandfather on several occassions for having dared to use upbeat music with New Song.

Once I remarked to a sister that had enjoyed some of the rock music I had heard.  That tidbit went through the grapevine like light through space, (186,000 miles per second).

The next day Steve Irons solemnly informed me that "Brother George would like to talk to you".  So the next day I stopped by the palace on Calle Serena on my way home from work.

When I entered the great man's presence I was greated with , "What's this I hear that you don't think there's anything wrong with rock music".

I told him I never said that.

He then went on with the "missionaries from Africa say that the natives use the same beat as rock music does to worship the demons".

I told him, that yes, that was true...but it was also true that Bach used those same beats to write his music.  There are only a half-dozen or so rhythms that pretty much all music uses, so I guess we are all worshipping demons.

Why didn't I rise in that organization?

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

I was first introduced to Keith Green in Steve Irons house.   Keith's "no compromise" message seemed to go well with the Assembly and, as the Iron's kids were into adolescents, they could relate with the music.  We enjoyed listening to him in Steves house and I still occasionally listen to some KG CDs to this day.

I have never heard anything negative about Keith's ministry from Assembly people personally.  However, I do know that George has a tendency to, on the one hand, praise ministries that have similar points in order to give his ministry credibility (e.g., Francis Schaeffer, Bakt Singh, Dr. Charles Solomon, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, etc).  On the other hand, he would generally find something crtitical of these same ministries to make sure people would understand that they are inferior to his.

Do tell then, what ever happened to Chuck Solomon?  Does he have any idea how the wheel and line diagrams were used to put the final nails in many of our coffins in the assembly?  Does he agree with the main points of GG's ministry?  I'd really like to know

delila

At the time, (lates 1980's) George said that Dr. Solomon was one of the few individuals who saw the cross in a way that George had figured out long ago.  He even allowed Dr. Solomon to speak at a meeting (I believe it was Wednesday night).  

George shortly afterwards told the story of how after he took Dr. Solomon into his study.  Dr. Solomon listened with rapt attention as George began to open up to him how the cross not only applies to the individual, but to the church as well.

Dr. Solomon has not been seen since, to my knowledge.  Again, the Geftakian principle of using Dr. Solomon's ministry to give his own credibility, but then pointing out how he (George) came up with the idea sooner and with greater depth of understanding.

I always wondered if what George interpreted as Dr. Solomon's rapt attention to deeper teaching was in fact Dr. Solomon sitting silently and patiently while thinking, "as soon as I can get loose of this overbearing nut, I'm outta here."

My father set up a "counseling" session with Dr. Solomon after my mother left with the intention that she would go with him.  However, my mother was not willing to go alone with him to the other side of the country.  I don't know if Dr. Solomon ever knew what was actually going on.  My father never ended up keeping the appointment.

We contacted Dr. Solomon's office after we left, and received a lengthy reply from one of his associates identifiying some errors in GG's teaching.  I will try to get the letter posted soon on ga.com.

Regarding Charles Solomon and the Wheel and Line, I have some interesting stories to tell of how that teaching was "encapsulated" by George and the workers so that it would not be a threat to George's "ministry."  But I will wait until I have more time to post.  Suffice it to say that listening to George and his gang talk about the Christian life left me feeling devastated and condemned for four years before I stumbled onto "Handbook to Happiness."  For me, that book was like a breath of fresh air to a drowning man.  Indeed, many people found it so.  That's why it was such a threat to George, and why he and his cronies embraced it at first, then began subtly to screw it up.  BTW, on a slightly related topic, does anyone remember George's "Fountain of Life" seminar?  Does anyone remember what a fountain of death it turned out to be?

Regarding Jack Hanson and his workshop on Christian music that he taught to workers and others, I also have many stories.  Again, they will have to wait.  Suffice it to say, that when Jack "encouraged" his son to start his own band, and "encouraged" other Placentia kids to join this band, Jack put an entirely different spin on his "workshop" (too bad there's not a "puke" icon, or I'd drop it in here)...

Clarence Thompson

Subj:   Re: George Geftakys
Date:   4/30/01 6:09:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From:   ChuckGFI@aol.com
To:   Tr0ckmanDC

Hello, Brent:

I have only met George once and have never heard him teach.  However, I am aware that a number of the people associated with him have found victory through the application of the Cross by the Holy Spirit as they have read my books.  It is interesting that you say he sees the Cross applied in a corporate sense which could explain why most do not experience the Cross individually.  I don't know that I have time for dialogue nor am I well enough versed with his teaching; however, things such as your observation about the corporate mentality does make sense.  Blessings.  Chuck Solomon

---

Subj:   Re: George Geftakys
Date:   5/1/01 3:20:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From:   ChuckGFI@aol.com
To:   Tr0ckmanDC

Brent, I want you to know that I appreciate your summary of what is going on and the way in which my ministry to George's group may be somewhat misinterpreted.  It sounds to me that you have a balanced view of what is and what is not going on; I will look forward to meeting you sometime.  I have recently met David Geftakys.  God bless you, my brother.  I believe you said you had visited our web site?  It is SolomoNet.org  God bless.  Chuck

---

I had some correspondence with Dr. Solomon in the early stages of my "investigation."

While there is quite a bit more I could say about Chuck, from our discussion, this letter summarizes the final conclusion.  If anyone is interested, I will post what I wrote to him, although it is mostly along the lines of "Do you know who George Geftakys is? Do you endorse his ministry?  Are you aware that he drops your name as a supporter of his?  Do you know that he twists your teachings?

Dr. Solomon was only vaguely familiar with George, but seemed to know some of his associates better.

Brent

I'd love to see your letter, Brent.

Thanks for all that!  Questions answered.  I seem to recall G ironicaly, warning us in ministry once that a little bit of twisted truth was worse than a full blown 100% lie.  No kidding eh.

I went to a Salvation Army service today with two former assembly members.  And of course, fought tears.  

I see the suffering of Christ etc etc and I see myself too, dying a million times, I see others too, dying needlessly, dying daily in a way that was never intended.  We sang "Faith is the Victory" but only knew defeat.  That's what that little bit of twisted truth does.

G's ministry to me, and almost everything I know about the bible, is still so much like a trip through the house of mirrors.  All distorted.  

delila

That's the whole deal isn't it?  What do they do with sheep?  Enjoy mutton?  Lamb chops?  Wool?
Lead to the slaughter once, shame on you.  Lead to the slaughter twice, shame on me
drj

Hi Delila and All !  :)

  Your feelings are probably shared, at one time or another, by most who post here.  GG's method of teaching the Bible, where we flipped from verse to verse throughout the entire
Bilble, had the dizzying effect of a merry-go-round inside a house of mirrors!  ???
  What helped me to find my balance and correct focus in understanding the Bible also helped me with the control of my emotions.  That was to find a fixed reference point in the Bible from which to start all my thinking and feeling.  The fixed point is a simple understanding of God's love for me as revealed in the Gospel.  This tells me that because God so loved me He sent the Son to die for me and that I am eternally secure in that love.  My relationship with Him is on the basis of His gift to me, not on my performance of His will.
   The reason we must first begin with the above firm foundation is that the Bible is filled with individual passages, that when taken alone, seem to give the impression that God expects us to make our own salvation real in our lives via the strength of our wills.  GG took advantage of this apparent contradiction to teach his special brand of holiness, as do numerous other cults and merit theology teachings.
  Then there is GG inspired "God speaking to one's heart" vs to the mind that causes us to react via emotion first and to believe that such intuition is God's voice.  God has spoken the loudest and the clearest in the Gospel and as we hear and believe peace comes to our heart.  This is as true for the long time believer as it is for the newly saved.
  One other hint:  Christian churches that have a lot of emotionalism as part of the service can be difficult for some who are trying to learn to think clearly re. their faith and find themselves easily swept up in the euphoria of the moment.  I don't know how many choices you have in Estevan, but it is okay to visit around until you find a place where you can get some basic instruction and where you are comfortable.
                               God Bless,  Mark C.

I emailed the link http://www.geftakysassembly.com/Articles/TeachingPractice/SolomonColleagueLetter.htm (http://www.geftakysassembly.com/Articles/TeachingPractice/SolomonColleagueLetter.htm) to a few people.  One person replied thus:

Wow! That was an insightful analysis of George's teaching. It clearly shows his error: Galatianism.

Yes, Galatianism.

Of course, they could have learned that a long time ago, if they read the website.

Solomon's teachings themselves are full of error as well.   However, even he saw through the blatant false teaching of Geftakys.  George had the audacity to tell the man that he could speak Greek!

Then, George told us that Solomon came up with a book that "taught what he had been teaching for years....without the corporate vision of The House of God, of course."

Solomon's book is designed to bring happiness and peace through the finished work of the cross.  George's teaching did no such thing, even though we foolishly believed that if we just yielded more, they would!

Perhaps your friend will read something on the website now.  Steve's article on Full Salvation is much better than Solomon's letter.

Brent

Thanks for drawing my attention to Steve's article on the website.  I did email the link to my "friend" who has been perusing it since.

What we find so amazing is that it was clear all along that the error of Geftakysism was Galatianism.  Those who were on the outside could see it, but we who were on the inside were wallowing around it, blind in our fog of deception, and walking in 'sincerity' and yet 'sincerely wrong'.  How many times did we say of some devout Catholic that they were sincere but sincerely wrong, but now assembly sympathisers cannot, or rather will not, accept it of themselves?  We were very closed in.  I honestly believed that England is a verrryy 'dark' place, because GG told us so on numerous occasions.  Yet now I have discovered that there are some excellent British preachers eg. Stuart Briscoe, Charles Price, Nicky Gumbel and more.  So many times GG would pronounce seminary, cemetary. And he told us that he had to unlearn what he had learned there.  None of us even considered going to seminary after listening to GG.  Yet now I hear of godly teachers at seminary.

Don't know what this post is doing on CCC, but here it is!

Lrd bless,
Marcia

P.S. The truth-teller article is well-written, and some of my friends, that I emailed the link to, really enjoyed it too.
MM

the contmporary worship.
I think I know what makes me cry
what's on the screen is the photos of an awesome creation.  evidence.
When I first met the 'saints' I thought that the evidence for God's existance was his people.  
then, seven years in the assembly came to an abrupt end.
And now?  Surprisingly, I can sing the old hymns without a hymn book.  But these new songs, usually scripture set to music with video of creation to look at... that floors me.  And it shouldn't surprize me, really.  But there it is and there it will be again next Sunday: me bawling, looking at the clouds, mountains, water...
But it's okay, to cry now.  Amost cleansing.
Delila

From AOL news, FYI:


Evangelicals Aid Marketing of 'Passion'
By EMILY KAISER, Reuters

CHICAGO (Feb. 13) - Arch Bonnema was so moved by Mel Gibson's controversial film "The Passion of The Christ," he bought $42,000 worth of tickets so more people could see it.

"It had a profound impact on my life," said Bonnema, a Southern Baptist who runs a financial services firm near Dallas and saw a preview of the film. He gave away 6,000 "Passion" tickets for opening day on Ash Wednesday, Feb. 25.
"The way the movie industry works is, the more people see a film at the beginning, the longer the film stays around."

A potent mix of religion and money looks set to make "Passion" a box-office smash, despite concerns the film could foment anti-Semitism. Gibson, who spent $25 million of his own fortune to make the film, is relying on evangelical churches to market it, and the strategy appears to be working wonders.

Except for Gibson's star power, the movie is hardly a typical Hollywood blockbuster -- it's a low-budget film with no well-known actors and the dialogue is in Latin and Aramaic.

The film will open on some 2,000 screens -- similar to what a major studio release would receive and almost unheard of for what is, in effect, an independent film.

Instead of the usual barrage of billboards and television advertisements, Gibson invited thousands of religious leaders to watch screenings and spread the word about his film, which looks at the final 12 hours in the life of Jesus Christ.

Critics contend the movie unfairly blames Jews for Jesus's death. Gibson, who belongs to an ultra-conservative sect of the Catholic church, has said he was surprised by the outcry.

The film has touched a nerve in the evangelical Christian community, which boasts millions of members and spending power of billions of dollars. It is a group that can swing presidential elections, turn obscure books into overnight best-sellers and quite possibly make "Passion" a blockbuster.

Hundreds of churches are selling advance tickets, and promoting the film from the pulpit. Theaters from Texas to Montana have already sold out for opening day.

At Arch Bonnema's Prestonwood Baptist Church near Dallas, which has 22,000 members and holds services in a huge building that resembles a sports arena, the pastor preaches on the power of "Passion" and has urged congregants to see the movie -- despite an "R" rating for graphic violence.

The church is distributing half of the tickets Bonnema bought. For those who didn't receive freebies, the church's Web site has details on where to buy them.

"We've never seen anything like this," said Richard King, a spokesman for theater chain AMC Entertainment Inc., noting that even mega-hits such as "Lord of the Rings" and "Harry Potter" did not see this much early demand.

King said the company had tripled its group ticket sales staff to keep up with demand, and it was only accepting requests from groups of 25 or more people. Individual and smaller group tickets will go on sale closer to opening day.

Gibson is not the first movie maker to tap into the church marketing machine. Cloud 10 Productions' movies based on the popular "Left Behind" series of Christian books helped pioneer church-based marketing.

"If you get the Christian community behind your film and supporting it, they're very strong at word-of-mouth and grass-roots (marketing), and bringing friends to the theater," said Melisa Richter who runs Richter Strategic Communications and was formerly Cloud 10's public relations manager.

"Passion" has even scored prime advertising on the hood of a NASCAR race car, just in time for Sunday's Daytona 500, which draws a television audience of about 11 million. Interstate Batteries Chairman Norm Miller said a friend asked him to paint the ad on his company-sponsored race car.

It remains to be seen if demand for tickets will hold up after the vital first weekend. Some experts said the violence may turn off viewers. But if Bonnema's friends are any indication, ticket demand will easily outstrip opening-day supply.

Bonnema e-mailed a handful of friends to see if they knew anyone who wanted some of his 6,000 tickets. "In three days, I had 23,000 requests," he said.