AssemblyBoard

So, here we have a group of "overcomers in training".  I believe the Bible instructs us to overcome evil with good.  Sounds like we have a lot of training to do.

A large amount of the posts, comments, etc, here appear to be bitterness and hate.  The Bible doesn't instruct us to be bitter and hate when we are wronged.  Jesus himself teaches us to love our enemies.

I agree that some bad things have happened over the years--not just in the Geftakys family, either--but does that give those who have been wronged the right to then rail on those who have wronged them?  As Jesus stood before Pilate, He was silent--for you.

Christians have wronged some of you.  What are you doing back to them now?  The tone of this website has quickly deteriorated from a status of bringing situations to light to a status of openly resenting and bashing everyone in leadership--something goes clang if I am observing a group of Christians writing on this website and wondering if I want to become a Christian.

"By this shall all men know that you are my disciples: that you love one another."

I agree that there has been sarcasm and that this is a time where healing and recovery should be the rule of the day. I want to do all I can to promote that. But, the psychological trauma many of the would be "offenders" have been through may be foreign to you. The effects of decades long programming (guilt, fear & intimidation) will take a great deal of time to work out for some and possibly never get completely resolved for many. So, I have to be understanding and merciful and stand with my web site brethren here, hoping that the vindictiveness will discipate and real truth and love will overcome.

By the Lord's grace,

Tony

Voice in the Shadows:

I don't understand how exposing the sins of those who have perpetrated evil against believers is bitterness and hate.  In fact, I believe most of the people who are involved on the bb have great love for those who are in the "assembly".  Our reasons for posting is to "speak the truth in love".  Love sometimes hurts.  These were our dear friends and family members.  We are not lying about our experiences, we are bringing them out into the light.  

The "overcomers in training" etc., is simply a humerous way of dealing with the abuse we suffered in a "performance based" belief system.  "Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God." 1Jn 5:5.  We are overcomers because we have placed our faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross.

We welcome your involvement and hope that you will have a serious dialogue about these things.

Dear Voice from the Shadows:
  No doubt some of the poster's on this BB who have left sound bitter and resentful.  We are human and as such share normal human emotions that react when mistreated.  The roll-over-and-play-dead theology is what kept many of us inside for many years.  We were taught that if we submitted we would discover that God would intervene on our behalf.
   We were to "go the way of the cross" while Husband's beat wives and children, Leaders lied to us, mastered our lives, etc.
    Part of the process of recovery is to free one's self from the false submission to Leadership we practiced.  Paul, used very strong language to describe those who dominated the faith of the sheep and described them using the strongest of terms.
    Your view of Christian "turning the other cheek" is taken out of context of the rest of scripture.  A good way to test your theology is to ask a question:  What should a Christian man do if a someone attacks his wife while they are walking down the street together?  Should the husband "turn the other cheek"?  Also, should the husband not express any emotions but love for the attacker?
   The love of God is not some kind of hippie, "Peace & love" pacifist message as God's character has a strong component of justice included in it.  God reacts strongly to sin (God is angry re. sin) and sin is what the poster's are reacting to.  As individual believers we need to be righteous and stand against sin and stand up for what is right as well.  We are to pray for repentance for those who are in sin, but true repentance does not allow for a covering up masked in the terms of a false forgiveness.
   I agree that bitterness needs to find healing, but this is a process that takes time and part of the purpose of this BB is to help one another in that process.  You will not find salvation through faith in the poster's on this BB as we are but sinners saved by grace, but I would urge you to look to the Christ of the cross and see in him a perfect love and a perfect salvation.        God's richest blessing,  Mark C.

Hello, voice in the shadows.

Thanks for your contribution.  One thing you may notice is that many of us use our legal names.  The righteous are not afraid to be identified when they speak, or act, but the wicked like to hide in the darkness, because their deeds are evil, and they don't want to be exposed.

Why are you in the shadows?  Are you righteous or wicked?  For that matter, who are you?

I would also like to point out, in addition to the list that Garth gave us, the Lord Jesus used sarcasm against his critics as well,

Luke 13:32  And He said to them, "Go tell that fox..........

Paul used the term, "Super Apostles," which is clearly a sarcastic derogatory remark that described false teachers and evil men.

He also called people Evil, compared them to Jannes and Jambres, and said that he wished that they would emasculate themselves!

The Apostle John called these same sort of people Anti-Christ.

So, I apologize for the sarcasm, and I will just stick to the bible.

"God tell that fox, George, that he is the most eminent Apostle of them all.  He is an evil man and I wish he would castrate himself.  He is a viper, lying in the shadows waiting to bite someone who unsuspectingly sits down to rest in the shade."

Voice, I advise you to stay away from reading most of the Bible, especially the prophets, because they are often critical of people.  You might want to look at these, and then return with some comments:


http://www.geftakysassembly.com/codeofsilence.htm (http://www.geftakysassembly.com/codeofsilence.htm)
http://www.geftakysassembly.com/fear.html (http://www.geftakysassembly.com/fear.html)
http://www.withchrist.org/forgive.htm (http://www.withchrist.org/forgive.htm)

BTW, I am not offended by your remarks, becaue I understand why you said them.  I pray that you would have the courage to use your name, and that you would have the integrity to read the other side of the story before you make you decision.  All the same, we are glad to have your contribution.

Proverbs 18:17

Brent Tr0ckman

Voice in the Shadows is right. And I think "Mr. Freebird" leads pack w/ his anger & vitriole. None of us really understands the others' pain, etc.  But that never justifies (some of) the language & attitudes being expressed here. I do appreciate some of the replies that followed "Voice's" post. Of all I've seen here, I appreciate Kirk Cesaretti's writing most. It's well thought out, firm, yet humble. Note - you have not seen him all over these bulletin boards. I think he's been a good example.

I don't want to speak for Kirk C., but his lack of contribution on the BB is in no way due to his belief that the evil that has gone on doesn't deserve to be spoken about or brought out into the light.  If that were the case, he never would have allowed his article on the website (see "writings of Kirk C." on the main page.)

Some of us are more vocal than others.  Others don't feel a need to post.  That does not mean that this BB is not providing a great service to the body of Christ.  It is allowing the truth to be told to those who are still in the "assembly", albeit it might not be written perfectly.  Nonetheless, it is the truth.

You have not been harassed and mal-treated the way the Xanders have either, and therefore cannot understand the position the people in the Lombard "assembly" have put them in.  You say Kirk is a good example - that of silence.  That is what the "assembly" has always wanted to do with those who choose to "leave".  They are to be kept silent.  That is why we are shunned, excommunicated and otherwise disassociated with by friends of decades.  This BB is simply a place for us to come and share the truth for those who are willing to hear it.  The "assembly" won't allow the truth to be told in a public setting or even privately amongst old friends.  This BB accomplishes both.

Hey William

why don't you give Kirk a call and see what he thinks about all of this?  I spoke with him last night.  Hear his view from his mouth and then pop off!  ;)

If you like his writing, did you notice that he finally realized that it had to go on the Internet, on this website in particular?  Some of the letters he wrote are years old.  They all went into a black hole until he decided to put them on the web.

Question for you william:

Who has the greater sin, the one who says, "Praise the Lord!" and beats his wife, lies, steals, rages and crys false tears, or the one who has never done the things listed above but uses sarcasm in order to TALK about the first one's deeds in order to expose them?

I am eagerly awaiting your answer!

Brent

Garth

How can you call yourself a christian?  You are so insensitive!  shouldn't you be praying for these people?  What harm did they ever do to you?

Now were talkin'!!!

Enjoy your new title, but beware, you still haven't really overcome.....it takes alot of grace.  Not only that, it takes a lot of diligence on our part, to see that we don't fall short of the grace.  You still need about 39 posts to overcome, and then we'll see.  Don't fall into the trap you are setting for yourself....

Brent, Servant of the GM

Hey Brent - I have spoken w/ Kirk. I didn't write anything about "his view". I wrote of my perception of him. Is that OK w/ you that I "popped off" in that way?

To appease your eagerness: I'll leave the judging of sin to God, but my opinion is "the one who says, "Praise the Lord!" and beats his wife, lies, steals, rages and crys false tears" is a FAR greater sinner. By the way, did I call you a sinner?

Kimberley - I would never defend the actions of the criminal you are speaking of. Nor deny TREMENDOUS evil has occurred. That man is a monster & nothing less. He belongs in prison. I'm not @ all against free speech or any forum to speak your mind.

Freebird (Garth) - I don't expect everyone to agree with what I say, do you? I’m glad you kindly respond to some people. Don’t feel sorry for my being “sensitive”, I consider it a quality I need to develop. I guess I can’t quite relate to your “absurdity”. Don’t assume too much about me from a 9-sentence message. I do not support a system that has ruined lives, split families, supported abusers, and covers up awful sin. Please save your big hug and kiss for another.

This site doesn’t “make me sick”, but I’m somewhat disappointed in this Bulletin Board. It doesn’t seem much different to me than other Christian sites I’ve seen where the people write in such a way I can’t ever imagine them speaking to each other face to face. I realize now I should not have posted. Sorry if my opinion bothered you. Internet / Bulletin Boards seem to inspire a real nastiness in SOME people. I even see myself inspired to sarcasm - which I don’t like. Sorry. But I know some will criticize regardless, please feel free to continue yours of me.

Hey William

Excellent response.  No, you did not come out and call me a sinner, but I admit that I am one, as I'm sure you do to.

You answered my question in a most acceptable manner.  I think I can speak for most people out there by saying that you are welcome to post here, even if you must take us to task.

For the record, I too recognize the limitations of bulletin boards.  This is no substitute for face to face fellowhip. It isn't even a substitute for emailing one another.  It  is simply off-the-cuff banter that occasionally blesses and frequently makes me laugh.  As long as I don't expect more, I am perfectly happy with it.

When did you speak to Kirk?  He is one of my best friends, I spoke with him last night.

Brent

OH! one other thing.

I invite you, William, to please lift our gaze.  Most of the responses in the Grace and Truth sections, or the Bible sections are edifying.  You are most welcome to bless us, or even correct us at any time.

Brent

William:

I could respond to a lot more of what you say but I will limit myself to what you addressed to me.  I have a question.  If you would not defend this man and agree that he belongs in prison, then are you still in the "assembly" or were you simply monitoring this board?  If you were simply monitoring the board, disregard my next question.  However, if you are still in the "assembly" and you believe the above, then how can you in good conscience stay in a place where they willingly lied, covered up, allowed the abuse to continue and escalate and continue to slander, assasinate the character of and excommunicate those of us who are standing for righteousness?

Can somebody explain to me why so much time has been spent making sure that the victims of all these horrendous actions take the high ground and repent, love, forgive, keep quiet, and get their act together??  Meanwhile, these same "ministers of righteousness and unity" quickly jump to the defense of the offenders, and demand names, dates, times, details, social security numbers, and DNA evidence before being willing to confront this wretchedness.  Oops, did inclusion of DNA evidence just make me an Assistant to the Minister of Anger and Vitriole?

It's beyond my comprehension how few people have contacted any of the victims, and are spreading word that "plans are being made" to do so.  These people have made themselves extremely easy to reach, and those that I have contacted responded instantly and with kindness.  Meanwhile, the "repenting" offenders have secret meetings and bounce some of the offended at the door, while making intricate plans to "contact" the victims.

When are you "voices in the shadows" going to start standing up for the sheep and the offended, and condemn the wolves that attacked and abused some of God's dear little ones!?!?!!  

Maybe some have been extra angry and even bitter sounding at times on this board, but as Brent said, their names are there in black and white and if they error, it is on the side of standing up for the abused, while others hide behind closed doors, clever user names, and protect the reputation of wolves in sheep's closing.

Have a nice day   >:( >:(

Hi Tony,
  I will attempt an explanation for "those hiding in the shadows of darkness" (isn't that something bad?).
  The logic goes like this:
1.) God raised up this great work and it is the pinnacle of his new creation on earth; The Church, Heaven on Earth, The Earthly expression of God's government, ad nauseum.
2.) The Leaders have been ordained by God and as such we must obey them without question.  Even when they blatantly sin we really didn't see what we saw, and if we dare to say we saw it we are being carnal and so it is really our problem, and don't we see that we need to get right with God!!!! add run on sentence nausea. (now I am getting sick)
3.) It is really the Devil trying to attack the great work by calling the Workers down from the wall to talk (it's a trick of the Devil, this call for repentance).
4.) Those who are on the outside calling for justice and repentance are just bitter and disgruntled former members who have a personal grudge against GG and the Leaders.  Therefore, whatever they say has no truth or meaning to it. There are many anti-Christ's--- since they left us they must be of this company and therefore are counted as dung. "I don't think we need any outsiders telling us our sin".
5.) Logic?  God does not work through logic, or common sense.  We need to pursue a higher wisdom; we must put on our spectacles and see that God created the Assembly on the 7th Day!  Lay aside what your clear moral sense is telling you is wrong and drink the kool-aid provided for you.  There is no right or wrong for the spiritual man has ascended to a higher pinnacle of truth and revelation and as we enter the 4th dimension of the Spirit we can see the breath of the Spirit bring us into the sphere of greater illumination---- (add much nauseum and also add a large cup of insanity to this above recipe.)  Yes, of course, stir it into the kool-aid.
       God bless those who read with spiritual health,  Mark

Tony:

You score 5 out of 5 overcomer points for that post!

Yes indeed, much energy is being expended in saying how some of the most minor details in Rachel's story aren't quite right.  A couple people even protested that the dates were off by a few months!  Many have emailed me, after I have emailed them, saying, "I have been wanting to contact you for some time..."  but of course, they never did.

Judy has been contacted exactly ZERO times!!! >:( >:(

Rachel has been contacted exactly one time, and that was not really an apology: ",if I have offended you or caused you any harm by not doing more, please forgive me."  That is an exact quote from her one and only contact.  There is still no evidence that this person is doing anything to ammend for his neglect.

However, don't be troubled.  The Lord sees their secret meetings, even as he saw the meetings of the Pharisees, who triangulated their responses to His questions, and plotted when the best time to arrest Him was.  Their plans will only bring ruin on their own heads.

Brent

Dear Editor
Can you give us some details on the discussion someone recently had with Keith Walker lately
Kevin Healy

Hi all (especially William),

This is my first time posting to this site, but just had a couple things to say.

One, I agree with you about the tone of some of the poster, in that they "seem" vengeful and want blood (for those that truly do I say REPENT!).

Second, from having been involved with the assembly for 10 years (Huntington Beach/Long Beach), I see this web site as one warning the people left in.   I would hope that in the future there would be more healing articles, because I know of two people leaving (heard from them today) because this web site was the "nail in the coffin!"

Last, William all former members if honest will tell you that because of some of the teachings they learned in the assembly they are better sons/daughters of God.

Lord Bless Everyone  
George A.
I Cor. 16:23,24  :)

Dear PeacefulG

I think we are all in agreement with you.  I would love to see more "healing articles," as well.  You are more than welcome to contribute one.

However, without defending those who "want blood," I do want to caution people who would quickly adopt a, "Peace, Peace" tone, when there is no peace!  Read Jer 6-8

Now, please note, I am not accusing you of saying "peace, peace" you said no such thing, but I do know that the tendency is there in all of us, especially those who are recently left the lodge, or those who are still in.

The facts are as follows:
There is no repentance
There is no accountability
There has been serious fraud and abuse
There is no peace for the wicked.
It is evident that God is judging George and George's house

Acts 3:19-20  "Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before,"

Prov 20:30 blows that hurt cleanse away evil, as do stripes the inner depths of the heart.

Prov 20:12 The righteous God wisely considers the house of the wicked, overthrowing the wicked for their wickedness.

and my favorite proverb of late, Prov 26:3 A whip for the horse, a bridle for the donkey, and a rod for the fool's back.

Think em over and we can have a meaningful discussion about the application of God's Word.  :)

Brent

George A,

I was going to just let others respond because I feel I have said this a million times if I have said it once, but I will say it again.

We are not crying out for vengence or for blood.  We are crying out for truth and for justice, for honesty and openness.  We are crying out for an end to the lies, the deceptions and covering up.  We may sometimes sound vengeful, however, please keep in mind that for many of us, me especially, this is not the first time we have brought up these problems, these questions.  In the past we have been dismissed, slandered, ignored, supressed, and even excommunicated for bringing to light exactly the issues on this web site.  Years of being lied about and dismissed is exhausting and discouraging, so forgive us if we are not always perfect in our patience.  We want things made right and NOW.  We are tierd of waiting.


Yes, this is a warning, a wake up call to those of you still left in the assembly.  I want you to wake up and see what you are supporting.  

I believe in personal integrity.

Integrity:
1. Steadfast adherence to a strict moral or ethical code.
2. The state of being unimpaired; soundness.
3. The quality or condition of being whole or undivided; completeness.  

Integrity in action means, you do not support corruption.  How many times do we, on this site, have to tell you, that the leadership in your assembly, in Fullerton, in the midwest has known about the problems, the abuse for years and NOTHING WAS DONE.  Two years ago, I told the leadership about all of the problems exposed in my paper and the only thing done was a my father was put under discipline for a couple of months (2).  Then he was back preaching.  Nothing was done regarding the numerous Leading brothers who had known in the past and supressed, lied and coverup the sins without dealing with the sin.  For the last 2 years nothing has happen.  Most Saints did not know that any of these kinds of abuses and corruption in the leadership had ever occurred.  They did not know that the men they trusted as shepherds had, not only left sheep in a dangerous place without helping or checking to see if they were ok, but had lied about it as well.  It is this website and our telling of the truth that has brought to the light, issues the leadership has hid for decades.  Saints need to see that those they are trusting to lead and protect them as shepherds have proved themselves untrustworthy and dishonest.  Then the saints need to ask themselves if they want to support that dishonesty.  If you know a man in public office is corrupt or dishonest, you don't support him by giving him your vote or by running his campaign.  In the same way, you should not give your support to untrustworthy leadership.  You should know that by allowing the untrustworthy leadership to stay in a place of leadership and continuing to attend the assembly you testify that the assembly is a good place to be and the leadership is trustworty.  A new person coming in will meet you and think, "Well he's an ok guy and he trust these men and goes here, it must be an ok place.  I should be able to trust the leadership here."  You, saint, are vouching for the trustworthiness of the leadership and I am saying they have proved themselves untrustworthy and this is how.  (See my papers - Rachel's Story and False Appology)  I should think you should want to have integrity and know what it is you are supporting.  Do you know?  So if ones are leaving because this website was the "nail in the coffin" it means they already had questions and they got answers here that required them to take a stand.  Good for them.  I should think a lot of people would be leaving because they personally saw they needed to maintain their integrity and take a stand.  That is unless you guys are handing out t-shirts now for Meeting attire that says, "I ATTEND HERE BUT AM NOT SURE I SUPPORT OR TRUST THE LEADERSHIP".

If you have cancer you can not heal from it until you have cut the cancer out.  Otherwise, you the cancer will just continue to spread.  Yes, healing is a nice thing to want but you can not heal until full honesty, openess and full repentance has occured, until the corruption has been cut out and dealt with.  

Also, if some former assembly attenders were honest they will tell you that their faith was wrecked or at least weaken by the teaching in the assembly

I hope all will have the courage to stand for truth and justice.

Hi Rachel,
Thanks for hanging in there and and not giving up!

Hi all again,  :)

Forgive me if I was not clear in my last post.

1. Since this topic had become to topics (one, aobut the website and the other referring to the BBs along with the website), I as addressing the postings in the BBs.

2. I want repentence and restitution from leadership, but like I said there "seems" to be a vengful tone to some of the postings.  Vengence is the LORDS!, and we need to avoid all apperance of evil.

3. This is something to think about and should be another BB post, if there is no repentence from those, how are they going to face us (all abused, slander, torn down, etc.) in heaven.  Do they just face God's judgement and that is all?

4. So much was preached about running to win, get that/those crowns, hear well done thy good and faithful servant.  I must say they (Leardership and others) are going to miss a lot if things do not change.

5. I know lives were and wrecked, but what I am talking about is the spirtual laws learned.  For those that cling to the hurt and miss/forget  that they were taught how to read the word, preach the gospel, etc.  David though hurt and hunted by King Saul did not forget the things God thaught him while there.  Remember God's word does not return void.

Rachel when you see your sister or talk to her, tell her George Allen said hi!

Lord Bless
G

Its so interesting how "the VOICE FROM THE SHADOWS" can write an article on how negative this website is and the have a title such as this: "THIS WEBSITE MAKES ME SICK"!!! (WHAT A JOKE!!!!!!!)
     A "SHADOW" is dark place; a dark figure or image cast on a surface by a body intercepting light; an oppressive threat or gloomy influence.  Seems to me your name itself is negative.  So what image are you portraying here?  Some of the definitions of your "name" portrays the lodge itself.  Your post is an echo from the depths of the core of the lodge.  They tell you how to feel, how to think and how to act and then make you feel guilty for saying what you feel especially if it is the truth.  Why is it that people are not allowed to share their feelings without someone telling you how to feel?   How can anyone tell Rachel that she is not allowed to feel angry or cheated or hurt or bitter for all that she has been through?  She has feelings.....and even if they are hurt or anger or whatever she is allowed to say them, feel them and voice them.  Have you walked in her moccasins?  Have you been beaten?  Have you been lied to over and over and over again?  She is human.  The assembly teaches to roll over and play dead.....see that way they do not have to take responsibility for OR be accountable OR confront the issues b/c more than likely they are the cause of the problems.  God is the only judge here.  But how can you tell someone NOT TO FEEL or to COVER IT ALL UP?  Is that right?  Last time I looked we are in a FREE country...she has a right to voice her opinion, as well as others.  When you have lived in her shoes or the shoes of others here, when you  know the depth of the devastation that the lodge has inflicted on those that are voicing their feelings, then you can tell someone how to feel, or not to be negative.  The first thing the lodge members say about those who leave is that they are bitter or in sin.  That is the common statement every time.  Then, see ,they don't get blamed for the real reasons why people have left.  So to come on here and say that this website makes you sick...why are you reading it?  Stop pointing the finger at those who have been hurt, stomped on, beaten, verbally slaughtered, and harassed....b/c you have 4 more fingers pointing right back at you!!!  If you don't know the persons and you don't know the depths of devastation that people here have encountered...... how dare you question their pains?  You can't just swallow everything that has happened to you and pretend that it never happened b/c someone tells you to stop being negative or angry or bitter.  That does not change their pasts.  How have you been an encouragement to those ones?  What kind of a godly figure are you  to point the finger, have no compassion, and mouth off, when you don't even know the depths of their pains!!!!!  Only GOD knows.  Don't judge others esp. if you are too chicken to even put your name up here.  You NEED TO COME OUT OF THE SHADOWS>>>>AND INTO THE LIGHT!!!!!!!!  

Oh and I forgot to say also, one very important thing here....e-mail, web postings etc...... do not have a human voice to them, to so get the real depth of tone it may be not be how the author of the various posts may really be feeling or captured correctly...they may even be in tears writing these things etc...... you have no idea.....so please take that into consideration before knocking them clear out of the water!!!!

Hello again peacefulG

I am assuming that you are still in the Assembly.  If this is true, I want to personally commend you for being the first person from the Assembly to actually dialogue.  We have had a couple of guest snipers from time to time, but never an actual Assembly member.   :)

I want to comment on, "avoiding the appearance of Evil."

Here is a question:

Which behavior is a better aplication of the verse reference above:

A person who knows that his "brother," is a drunkard, abuser, and immoral, but doesn't say anything about it and continues to act as if everything is fine, thus avoiding the APPEARANCE of evil,

OR

A person who has been hurt by hypocrits, who is really angry and bitter and tells people exactly how they feel.  They don't try to act as if everything is fine, they tell it like it is, doing nothing to avoid the APPEARANCE of evil, instead speaking the truth?

Eph 4:25  Therefore, putting away lying, "Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor," for we are members of one another. "Be angry and do not sin"....

Brent
PS, I am angry about all of this, and I sincerely believe God is too.  His Word instructs us to expose the unfruitful works of darkness.  Jesus used a whip in the temple.  Do you think he actually hit anyone with it?

I apologize for this thread being accidentaly locked!

There are only 3 people who can do this, myself, brian, and Mark C.

I am sure it is one of the other two guys faults!

Please, PeacefulG, feel free to post again.  OUR BAD.

Brent

Hi all,

Thanks Brent for unlocking the thread.

Anyway like I have told two others in personal messages to them I only have two things to say in response to my post.

1. Sorry I am not in the assembly any more, as of yet I have yet to here of an assembly in Texas (been out since Oct 98), married my wife who was in Texas and left the GREAT state of Cali (even though the budget woes makes me thankful I am here where my taxes will not go up big time, plus we have no state tax, YEAH!)

2. It is one thing to write about your hurts and wrongs and to write even while still hurting (I see that in most writings), but to write in a manner that "implies/suggest" hurting back at others is wrong in itself.
A cheif theme of the articles has been out of the mouth of two or more witness, well my brethern more than two have express that from the writings of a "few" you could see that be angry and sin not passage is missing from their bibles.

Christ openly called out the leaders in his day more than once, but he did something then that God has always done from day one, left the people with a choice (Life or Death).  This site and other things I pray keep the light on the darkness, but not become like some of the other great reformation and revival movements.  Imploding within from their own haterd.  Philips 4:8
I could go on, but...........   Again, forgive me if I confused any, and I look foward to more of my dear brethern choosing LIFE!  :-)

Lord Bless
George A.

For those needing an AWESOME free bible program www.e-sword.net
Most reading this who know their chruch history know what I am talking about.

Back in 1989 just before we left, Betty was introducing teaching on Solomon's Wheel & Line about red flags that warn us that self is getting up on the throne and the Lord is deposed, or soon will be.  As I remember, anger was one of those red flags.  I'm curious--were you all taught this for the last 13 years?  If so, is it any wonder that assembly visitors to this BB are alarmed--look at all these red flags we're waving around.  They're sure it proves that we're in sin and darkness, even if we are quoting the prophets!

But Brent quotes a very pointed verse--"Be angry, and sin not."  God gave us negative emotions as warning lights on the instrument panel, so to speak--"Something is wrong, DO something!!!"  He doesn't tell us to not feel that warning, He is even telling us to feel it, but don't sin in the action you take.  I thank the Lord for all of you who are able to feel anger and indignation at the heinous wrongs that have been committed and are saying so.  

 

Exactly. I'm sick of hearing castigations for critical thinking. We were not allowed to express doubt, challenge leadership, criticize holy perspectives and teachings even though we had the burning sensation that something was terribly wrong. Now, we can do all that and more and if God be for us, who can be against us? It's a righteous cause and I want to be part of this battle against evil.

PeacefulG

Thank you.  That's good advice, and a point well made.

This website is only temporary, until one of two things happen:

1.) Repentance takes place, and there is no need for any of this.
2.) Repentance does not take place, and there is no more Assembly.

God forbid that this site become a cause of its own.  That would be tragic, in my opinion, and I started the website.

As per your church history comment, I don't know if you were referring to the Brethren movement, but I have often thought of them, and their bickering over letters and possible intentions in phrases, etc.  What a waste of great minds like Darby!

Not only am I aware of this, I am determined not to repeat the error, but your comment was a faithful reminder, and I greatly appreciate it.!

Brent

5 overcomer points for Margaret! ;)
God gets angry from time to time, and he never sins.  I get angry all the time, and I often sin, but I have no conviction from the Holy Spirit that being angry about the Assembly is sin.  In fact, being silent about these things is Definitely sin!

The wheel and the line was drilled into everyone for the better part of nine years Margaret.  It has been a literal fountain of abuse.  Some day I'll post some of the "doctrine" that was brewed up in George's perversion of Solomon's still in order to expose it.  However, right now we seem to be focusing on the possiblility of repentance occurring, and I don't want to distract people.

Brent

Peaceful:

It is somewhat difficult to understand your posts, so if I misunderstand something, please forgive and clarify.

I would like to respond on a couple of issues:  

1)  What are people's sins you speak of "be angry and sin not"?  Yes, we are angry (as I believe Christ is angry with these people.)  Yes, we want to see justice done.  People wave around the verse, "vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord."  Does that mean that if you witness a murder, you tell the prosecutor, "sorry, 'vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord'.  I can't testify as I believe it is the Lord's place to bring this person to justice."  No!  How ludicrous!  You would testify and see this person put in prison.  These are the same issues.  We are bringing everything out into the light IN ORDER that Christ may bring these men to justice.  

2)  We do not hate these men and women.  It would be much easier to just walk away (right Rachel?)  It is painful for some to even deal with these issues (I don't think many of us can even fathom the pain that Rachel and Judy are suffering at having this to deal with on a daily basis.)  The reason most of us are involved on the BB and with this website is out of a great love for the men and women involved with this ministry.  Many would have said that Christ in the temple hated the money changers, etc., but we all know that not to be the case.  Look a little deeper than just surface level to see the motivation behind this website.

We do welcome input such as yours though, as it gives us an opportunity to explain to those who are simply monitoring the board these things, rather than leaving it to their imagination.  

Hi all,
I seem to have left before this "Wheel and Line" stuff hit town.  I had never heard of this before I started reading this site.
However, I do remember making George Geftakys very mad at me once in a restaurant called DIMI'S on Balboa in Northridge, CA.  He said, "Let's go", then we got in his car.  He stormed out of the parking lot, and made a left turn right in front of 3 lanes of oncoming traffic.  They all honked at him so he rolled down the window and yelled at them.  He had several wheels and crossed some lines.  Is that what it means?

Tom

Hi Tom

Ah, not exactly.  In someone else, this would have proven that "S" was in the center, but we know that this could not have been the case with brother George.

"I don't know all the details," of what you are talking about, but you shouldn't speak this way about the Lord's servant.   ;) ;)

Brent

Brent - I get 5 overcomer points, but no title??  What is that?!?!

Am I not being entreatable, do I need say "thank you sir may I have another" 50 times?!!

Or are you assigning titles behind closed doors, and making plans to contact us in the right time about it?

Dear Voice in the Shadows,

You say that this website make you sick, and that it is filled with bitterness and hate.  I would have to disagree.  I believe that this website is a spiritually healthy endeavor, and while it may appear that there is bitterness in some of the voices here, the truth still does need to be told.

If there is indeed bitterness and hate on this website, we need to ask ourselves why is this so.  I truly believe that any negativity on this website is the direct result of the sins of the leadership. When someone in leadership sins, this sin does not just impact them, but the entire flock, and this is a very serious matter.  This was the case with the Pharisees and the Saducees, their leaders had committed a great sin in deceiving them and leading them away from the truth, and the impact of this sin was on all who were under their leadership.  When the Pharisess and Saducees came to "John the Baptist" to be baptized, he said to them:

"O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?  Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance"  (Matthew 3:7-8)

You may think that John also suffered from the same "bitterness and hate" that you say you have observed on this website, but I would say John spoke out of his love for the Lord, and concern for God's creation.  John the Baptist had a great love for God's people, and because of this he was baptizing the people of God (Jersualem, Judaea, and all the region around Jordan went to him to be baptized).  John said what needed to be said.  These people were a generation of vipers, and they needed to demonstrate repentance.  The act of baptism would have just been for outward appearance sake for them, it would not have been a baptism of repentance.  Likewise the Fullerton leadership needs to demonstrate the "fruits meet for repentance".

You say "By this shall all men know that you are my disciples: that you love one another".  If we truly love God's people as did John the Baptist, we need to speak the truth, even if it may appear to hurt ore offend.

"Open rebuke is better than secret love.  Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful." (Proverbs 27:5-6)

Love in not remaining quiet while God's people are hurt by the sins of those who are in leadership positions over them. If you see words that appear hateful, they are a result of the sins of the leadership.  The leadership should make you sick not this website.  I must admit that it hurts me too, to see things which may on the surface may appear hateful, and sometimes when reading some posts I hope that the language would not turn hateful, but I know from where the sin originated, and I have no ill feelings towards any of our more aggressive contributors.

Please pray for the true repentance of the leadership, and not feel that it is this website that is making you sick.  We need true repentance.  Repentance that brings forth fruit.  Just maybe this website will help open the eyes of those in assembly leadership positions, and help bring about their repentance for the glory of God.

Tony,

Do you expect better treatment?  Now brother, is Christ in the center of your heart?  ;D

If you were identified with Christ, you would not be concerned about titles or acknowledgements.  When a title is assigned, you will never hear about it from leadership.  That's the way we do it here.  Praise the GM, brother!

Just a quick thought regarding anger. I remember once having a discussion with someone who said that "God never gets angry, so we shouldn't either--it's just not very Christ-like". So I asked him if he had been in the Temple the day Jesus went around overturning the money-changers tables in anger if he would have said "That's not very Christ-like of you Jesus". I mention this because I see this Website and what has been happening lately a little like that Temple-cleaning--it's a cleaning of the house. It's a righteous anger directed against wrong-doing, but meant to bring about repentance and restoration. I don't believe anyone on this site wishes destruction of the Asembly or hurt to anyone involved with it. It's the sincere desire of all that true repentance develop and healing ensue. "Faithful are the wounds of a friend"---the leadership and others may not like to hear what's being said, but it's very necessary and I believe from the Lord himself. Change must come about and I believe the Lord has decreed it.


---Joe

Well said Joe! :D

Thank you all for allowing me to post on this site.  I put much thought into starting this topic, and I know you each put much thought into continuing it.

I have seen abuse outside of the assembly toward women and it bothers me greatly.  Not one bit of it is justified.  Therefore, Rachel, I try to understand what you and your mother have experienced...I have seen the tears of abuse, and know that they are the hardest to comfort...and that's about all I will claim to understand! :-\  I am expecting your situation to have a conclusion that is appropriate...at long last...

The main thing here I take issue to, as I have said, is simply the attitudes...not toward the Geftakys family...but knocking many things the assembly has taught and stood for...even things like devilboxes (TVs!).  I know that it is meant to be sarcasm, but some people don't see it that way.  Some think you're serious.  Like Sue said, the true tones, thoughts, feelings never come across email correctly, anyway.  (Btw, re: TVs: They aren't evil.  You just need to be careful with them!) :)

And, yes, things have been taught in error and situations handled inappropriately, and that is what some of you are concerned about.  I don't stand here to justify any of that, nor could I justify ripping on people for it.  I can't agree with either; I simply do what I can to stand before God with these things.  It's a tough one, I'll admit!!!

Thank you, each, though for considering what you are saying and the tone you are using.  All I wanted to do is get you to think about that.  This website has allowed everyone to take a step back and think about what they believe, what they are committed to, and how a major issue is going to be addressed.  I appreciate that many of you are likewise willing to step back and consider what I have said...take it or leave it!

I was in a training class for our foster care license when one of the social workers started talking about her divorce.  She stated that it took her about seven years before she was able to talk amiably with her ex-husband because of the anger of the betrayal she had to work though.

It stuck a chord of interest with me as it was about seven years before I stopped feeling a need to talk about this group in my past and the things that they did (mainly to glassy eyed Christians who had absolutely no context of what I was talking about – were you in a cult or something?  Not exactly.  Were you stupid?  I don’t think so.)

The point is, the emotional confusion and anger stays with you for a while and I am one whose hurt, though significant, was relatively minor compared to what others had gone through.

I won’t rehash the Judy and Rachel case as it is all over this site.  But, are you asking that they snap to attention and reach out with measured response and a placid smile on their lips?  

Get real!  What insane standard can you possibly be holding them to?  Or is the real issue the fact that people are getting angry and not the abuse itself?  Now there is a handy tool from Dysfunctional Leadership 101.

I am thankful that after twelve years I am able to sort out the good, the bad, and the ugly.  I am thankful that I can truly rejoice in the good things that God had done for me in those Assembly years.  But it took time.  And it took lots of reading, thinking, and conversations with supporting friends such as the Madduxs, the Wheels, the Everts, the Irons, the Campbells, and the DeSimones to help me find my bearings through the maze of confusing ideas and feelings and bring my vessel back to an even keel.

-Dave Sable
Deep Gap, NC
outdeep@yahoo.com
www.outdeep.com

Hi outdeep, glad to see the Lord got restoration in your life.

Lord Bless,
George A.

Dear Voice in the Shadows,

I think you are a very genuine person.  I also think you can be very open-minded.

I have spoken about the emotional abuse I have suffered from the Assembly.  Please understand, I refuse to be silent about what I suffered in the Assembly.  The Assembly doesn't want people to know what's really going on in the sect.  When I first left in 2001, I was told not to talk to anyone about the Assembly.  Now, think about this: what kind of church tells its members not to talk to others about their group?  Most churches I've been involved with are eager to share with others the ins and outs of their group.  Doesn't the Assembly's "no talk" rule strike you as odd?  They are trying to hide stuff from outsiders, because the Assembly knows that what they do is wrong.  Ok, they preach the gospel, yes, but the social aspect of the group is cult-like in nature.  I have read at least 4 books concerning cults, and the Assembly's dynamics match them to some extent.  I don't think of the Assembly as a cult, but as a sect.
I can not change your mind, and to be honest, I don't have the energy to do so, but I will tell you that the Assembly walls are crumbling.  Many will be stumbled (and many have been stumbled).  Get out before you get crushed!
It gets a little tiring to try and change people's minds about their involvement in the Assembly.  I think there are those who are totally clueless about the abuse, but on the same hand, I believe there are those that are fully aware of the abuse, and refuse to acknowlege the truth.  Where you fall in all of this is anyone's guess, but you sound quite intelligent.  After reading the information onthe Geftakys Assembly website, how can you stay in that group?  How can you support (yes-SUPPORT) what is going on in that group by staying?  Maybe something's wrong with MY thinking, but I honestly don't get it...

Dear Voice in the Shadows,
  I also sense your sincerity and wish to try and communicate with you in a similar tone.  
  I don't think that it is easy to see what is going on in the Assembly from the inside.  I have noticed a change in your tone since you have started to participate here and I think that is because you are beginning to see there are other ways to look at things re. the Assembly.
   I believe the problems there are deeply rooted in the teaching and practices of the Assembly, and do not just revolve around GG and family.  GG is a very disturbed individual who has established a system that perpetuates spiritual abuse in it's member's lives.  Whether GG, or other's step down, the above issue must be faced.
  I and other's have detailed this many times and there is no need to spell it out again here.
   Continue to read, post, and be blessed in doing so.
                                        God bless,  Mark C.

Hi all

This is a 1st for me so I have some mixed ramblings to
share.

My name is Gary Wilson. I first started attending the fellowship in Fullerton in 1972.  Yea, I'm an oldie.  Actually I stopped going a couple years ago.  Had nothing to do with anyone else - just my own personal discourgement.
Believe it or not but all that has been going on has been stirring my heart to renew my walk with  the Lord.

Throughout the years I haven't had anyone pressure me to do this or that.  Probably would have zero effect anyway.
There have been a number of brothers and sisters throughout the years that have shown me great kindness.
Some of these people are still in fellowship in the various
assemblies.  Others throughout time have left.  I have the fondest memories of these ones.

I don't say that to negeate what has happened.
I have been fortunate.  I never swallowed all the teachings
hook line and sinker.  Really the things that have stayed with me are the things that I got from the word personally.
Godly non-assembly books have had the greatest impact on me.  Things like wheel and the line and assembly fads I usually viewed as Methods.

What point am I getting to.  Simply this!  Although others and people in leadership may influence or pressure someone there is also the aspect of individual accountablility. Does that excuse leadership or groups.
Absoultely not.  But I guess an application that can be drawn is simply to be an individual before God in all of our
decisions.  I guess we all need the courage of our convictions.  
I know individuals have been hurt.  I pray all that have will be able to go forward without resentment.
I am astounded that Judy and Rachel could have gone through so much abuse.  I am astounded at how they could have been so abandoned.  How terrible to look to ones you should be able to trust for help and be betrayed. I am certain that some have left for legitmate reasons and been hurt.  I am also convinced that some have left with nothing more that an axe to grind.  God knows our hearts.  
Personally I never thought we were the last stop in a believers call to God.  I always thought if someone could come into fellowship here - they had to have come from somewhere - then why couldn't they go somewhere else.
The reasons and motives need to be left with God.

I have a poor analogy to share.  I once worked for a company for 8 years that had terrible management - leadership.  People were used, lied to, etc.  I noticed that
the ones that left generally were the more confident ones.
However the ones that stayed behind were the more timid and less confident individuals.  I am speaking in general terms.  The timid folk would complain about what was happening but refused to be vocal to management.  In that situation I was the exception.  I had a whole lot to say. I am usually a much more timid soul.
I can only think they kept me on because they feared some form of ligation - I documented events.  The point I am making is we all as Christians need to know WHAT WE BELIEVE, and THE COURAGE TO EXPRESS AND ACT ON OUR CONVICTIONS.

I stated earlier that I was in the Fullerton assembly.
Actually I came out again last Sunday
 I know without a doubt  that God called me to that fellowship years ago.  If he leads me out so be it.  But I - with open eyes - want to see what the Lord is going to do.  I am responsible for my decision to stay.  I am responsible for what I see in the future and what I do with that.

May God give all of you and light and wisdom in all of your
personnel decisions.  May we all learn from the events that have transpired.

Yours in Christ
Gary Wilson

Dear Shadow,

I don't know who you are, but your first post a week ago, was nice with respect to encouraging people to watch their tone and avoiding "returning evil for evil" with bitter, hateful posts...Hey, and with bitter, hateful posts - I agree!
 
If you look at the history of my posts - you and I are one on this - that's is exactly where I'm coming from as well. "A gentle tongue/keyboard turns away wrath....A wise man makes knowledge acceptable....love covers a mulitude of sins."  

Following this last weekend's reconciliation with Brent and the SLO believers - this site has taken a remarkable turn to grace, reconciliation and mercy inplace of judgement, sarcasm, and bitterness.  Judgement with love is salutary, however, throw in a little hate and you've got a witches brew.

However, your latest post seems venomous. Last week the board is negative and your nice, this week the board is positive and your mean.  And, about what?  You now think that the board is negative.  What?  You appear to be breathing the same fire that you would hope to douse. Why be abusive about abuse?  It's a contradiction.

Hey, Ephesians 4:29 - If it doesn't edify, isn't wholesome, or give grace - let's leave it off the boards.  We're free here; so, that's a request.

Why are you anonymous anyway? Email me if you like and reveal yourself chuck@vanant.com.  Brent and I discuss these issues, too.  I'm concerned that this be a place where people can find answers and hope for reconciliation.  I'm glad you are committed to keeping the tone edifying.

Grace to you - Shadow Person

Chuck Vanasse

Greetings Dan, Buddy!  This is your Uncle Chuck!

Sorry, did I blow your cover? ...Great to hear from you! - Excellent points!  You know Dan, you'll see "some shots" at things on this site, but I think most of the people here are committed to bringing things that are hidden in the darkness into the light, to expose evil, and to seek reconciliation, hope and peace. There is tons of goodwill here, mercy and love, too.  The man who runs this site, Brent, is a wonderful guy I met in SLO last Saturday.  He's an inspiration...He's strong, but not afraid to say he's wrong - Godly!

However, if you hang around long enough you'll find some very bitter people as well.  Many folks have been hurt and injured through the years...Some of that hurt has turned to anger and that anger to bitterness.  It's wrong, but I do understand it.  I remember once coming upon a dog that had it's back legs run over and it was dying.  When I got close to try and help it, it tried to bite me.  I understood why. Needless to say, we're battling it on the Web site.  It's not edifying. It's sad, but true and real.

However, just as people who have been hurt by some of their experiences in the assembly need to not be bitter...So, those who are in the assembly or who were formerly in the assembly need to realize is that where there is sin and hypocrisy it must be exposed and hopefully repented of!  People who expose sin and the deeds of the darkness are not against the assembly - They are for it!  They are for it in the best possible way.  Just like a mother who spanks her unruly child. She loves her child. When sin is exposed and turned away from, there is a victory and we get reconciliation.  And, the grace flows! Lives are changed...If you hang around you'll see lots of changed lives.  This is what Christianity is all about.  I've seen more REAL Christianity on this site in the last week than I've seen in many, many years as a believer.  It's so encouraging.

The issue that will be addressed increasingly, I believe, on this Web site will be the issue of idolatry. Idolatry comes when we put a man or his offspring on a pedastal.  I believe this is where all our woes have come from.  Yes, I said we.  I'm an outsider to the assembly, but not to our family.  I've eaten deep and long at the bitter trough of Idolatry's fruits.  And, this man that has only three days ago been exposed, sat as a fraud in a place that no man should have ever sat.  Judgement will continue until we repent.

Dear Nephew, Dan, that is and was the problem - Idolatry.  This is the warning given by so many, so often through the years to the Assembly.  Your own grandfather warned us with much emotion.  It was hard to hear.  

Much repentence needs to be made concerning the sin of idolatry.  All of us need to look deep into our hearts on this one.

Blessings, Dan...I love Dear Nephew. You're a godly, young man.  Run the race and win the prize, sweet Dan!

Your Uncle Chuck
chuck@vanant.com

Greetings Dan, Buddy!  This is your Uncle Chuck!

Sorry, did I blow your cover? ...Great to hear from you! - Excellent points!  You know Dan, you'll see "some shots" at things on this site, but I think most of the people here are committed to bringing things that are hidden in the darkness into the light, to expose evil, and to seek reconciliation, hope and peace. There is tons of goodwill here, mercy and love, too.  The man who runs this site, Brent, is a wonderful guy I met in SLO last Saturday.  He's an inspiration...He's strong, but not afraid to say he's wrong - Godly!

However, if you hang around long enough you'll find some very bitter people as well.  Many folks have been hurt and injured through the years...Some of that hurt has turned to anger and that anger to bitterness.  It's wrong, but I do understand it.  I remember once coming upon a dog that had it's back legs run over and it was dying.  When I got close to try and help it, it tried to bite me.  I understood why. Needless to say, we're battling it on the Web site.  It's not edifying. It's sad, but true and real.

However, just as people who have been hurt by some of their experiences in the assembly need to not be bitter...So, those who are in the assembly or who were formerly in the assembly need to realize is that where there is sin and hypocrisy it must be exposed and hopefully repented of!  People who expose sin and the deeds of the darkness are not against the assembly - They are for it!  They are for it in the best possible way.  Just like a mother who spanks her unruly child. She loves her child. When sin is exposed and turned away from, there is a victory and we get reconciliation.  And, the grace flows! Lives are changed...If you hang around you'll see lots of changed lives.  This is what Christianity is all about.  I've seen more REAL Christianity on this site in the last week than I've seen in many, many years as a believer.  It's so encouraging.

The issue that will be addressed increasingly, I believe, on this Web site will be the issue of idolatry. Idolatry comes when we put a man or his offspring on a pedastal.  I believe this is where all our woes have come from.  Yes, I said we.  I'm an outsider to the assembly, but not to our family.  I've eaten deep and long at the bitter trough of Idolatry's fruits.  And, this man that has only three days ago been exposed, sat as a fraud in a place that no man should have ever sat.  Judgement will continue until we repent.

Dear Nephew, Dan, that is and was the problem - Idolatry.  This is the warning given by so many, so often through the years to the Assembly.  Your own grandfather warned us with much emotion.  It was hard to hear.  

Much repentence needs to be made concerning the sin of idolatry.  All of us need to look deep into our hearts on this one.

Blessings, Dan...I love Dear Nephew. You're a godly, young man.  Run the race and win the prize, sweet Dan!

Your Uncle Chuck
chuck@vanant.com

Hi Dan (that's you're first name right, Mr. Sjogren?)

Since you have just become aware of these events, it is understandable that you would not know the extent that the leaven has been worked into the assembly.  Spiritual abuse, mind control, coersive persuasion are some of what was going on there and, yes, happening to you.
Check out the rickross site for some good definitions and explanations.
http://www.rickross.com

Here's a quote for thought, "Little by little we were taught all these things. We grew into them."  Adolph Eichman, Nazi war criminal
(Note, some people are hypersensitive, so I make this disclaimer. The assembly is not naziism, nor what was done in the assembly near as bad as what the nazi's did, at least on the physical level.  I use the quote because the same truth exists--the spell takes over a person slowly and usually without his knowing that he is bewitched.  I can't imagine what it would be like for someone growing up in the assembly.)

These are not "taking shots at the assembly".  Most of these posts are exposing the truth of the wickedness that has been going on there, much of it probably unbeknownst to you, but now you know, or are learning about.

Bro, as you learn about these things, do not despair, but know as you have affirmed, that God is working, and his plan will be done.

Arthur

Dan, I appreciate the spirit with which you write and most definately you reveal your age ;).  Which in some respects is rather refreshing :D but in others I would like you to realize that the men and women who are posting on this site, with perhaps what you would see as anger or bitterness, have suffered the kind of abuse from their spiritual leaders that is grieving the very heart of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.  I don't expect you to fully understand this, but I ask you to have mercy on these men and women and yes, pray for them.  It is through this website and the relationships that are formed that Christ will bring healing to the body of Christ.  I have seen it in my own life (the Lord using your uncle Chuck as one such example. :))

Since you have a love for the Lord, have an open mind and a heart of compassion as you read these posts and see how you can reach out to others and share the love of Christ, which will bring healing to them and those they are in relationship with.

Pass it on! :)

Sweet words, Kimberly.  Direct, honest and winsome.  Dan's a sharp young guy...He gets it.  His perspective is refreshing and young, not naive, but innocent.  There is hope!

Chuck

Dan,

Thanks bro, I have a whole lot more hope now these days, now that George got the boot and some leaders are repenting.  People are realizing that, yes, there was problems all along.  I feel vindicated, but more than that, like Chuck was saying, I'm glad to be a Christian again because now I know that God will follow through on what he promises, he will deliver, he will judge.  Man it's like my faith came back to me all in one night. I wonder why I doubted.  I'm like, yeah!  Praise the Lord! God is true and he is righteous!  Hey, the Bible puts it better:  
The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.  

About the rr site, I was referring more to this section, pretty heavy huh?  
http://www.rickross.com/brainwashing.html

Arthur

This is a test message.  I am solving a problem.

Please disregard.

Maalox would be my recommendation!