AssemblyBoard

Before telling y'all about my friend who grew up
in a Protestant-Catholic family in Pennsylvania,
I want to talk about the Book of Job.

When I left the Hudson River Valley (NY) in 1990,
I found myself with no friends nor family in
my new hometown of Huntsville AL.  I therefore
decided to read the King James NT/OT front
to back for two reasons:

a) I am a big Shakespeare nut, and the old
English is comforting in and of itself;

b) my professional work had involved using some
constructs of the French mathematician Blaise
Pascal, who experienced a deep religious conversion
that led him to leave scientific/mathematical
pursuits and become a religious thinker (his
main work is called "Pensees" or "Thoughts");
so I wanted to see if I could see in the Bible what
Pascal so obviously saw in it.

So I finally came to the Book of Job, and after
readin it, I also read various scholarly commentaries
which agreed that the "happy ending" was not
part of the original book - that it was added to
make Y-H-W-H appear more "fair" and "kind".

I believe that these scholars are correct and that
the real reason the "happy ending" was added
is that the Book of Job is really a justification
for a deep agnosticism, not belief.

The idea here is that if Y-H-W-H cannot be
questioned without committing the sin of pride,
then a definite belief in his existence cannot
be adopted without also committing the
same sin.  That is, presuming to know something
about the "unknowable" is itself prideful.

This paradox does not mean that one must give up religion - one can act as if one is sure that Y-H-W-H and
his commandments are real.  It's just that one can never say with sureness: "He Exists".

This concept of acting "as if" was deeply
explored by the Greek novelist Nikos Kazantzakis
in all his religious novels.  Kazantzakis is really
worth reading, even though he wrote the
novel on which the supposedly blasphemous
movie "The Last Temptation of Christ" is based.
In particular, if you're near a good library, read
the introduction by Kimon Friar to Kazantzakis'
long poem entitled "The Odyssey: A Modern
Sequel".  (I suggest a library because the
paperback may be out of print, and if not, is
certainly expensive.)

 :): Hello David:

First I want to say, wow what wonderful graphic you have their.

Second: about your Scholastic Friends re the book of Job:
Could you provide proof.  i.e. a web site where we can look this research up for ourselves. Not that I agree with you.
I would like to read it first hand. Also are these scholars , were they CHRISTIAN SCHOLARS?, are were they against the Bible and christianity and trying to disapprove the Bible?

Third: what exactly is agnostic anyways, could you please explain that term more thoroughly for these lay people like myself who is unsure of the meaning of the word.

Thanks David, I would appreciate it.


Lenore

Lenore  -  thanks for taking the time to reply.

Agnosticism is not BELIEF and not DISBELIEF.
(DISBELIEF is atheism.)

The agnostic person is a person who only
claims not to know EITHER way.

 I believe that agnosticism is the only correct
position because any one who says

"I believe for sure"

commits the sin of pride (pride in thinking they
know the answer)

And anyone who says:

"I don't believe, for sure"

is commiting the same sin of pride (again, pride
in thinking they know the answer.

I promise you I will find references to Biblical
scholars who claim the ending to the Book of Job
was added to make people feel better about
Y-H-W-H - that he couldn't possibly be so "mean".

Is your name David??  Lenore addressed you as David.

Pensees of Pascal the French 'thinker'.
The heart has its reasons that the mind knows nothing of.
Each of us has a God shaped vacuum that only God can fill.
(paraphrased by me)

dhalitsky, if my 'blunt' approach offends you, please be assured that it is not my intent to do so.

My husband used to 'pride' himself on being agnostic.  He is now a Christian and a clear logical thinker on many matters.

Have you read any of Francis Schaeffer's books??  You might find them very interesting.  He was a Christian philosopher.

Great to have you on board.
Lord bless,
Marcia

Marcia -

Thank you!

I will look up Schaeffer (don't know his works),
really !

David

"I think the king is but a man as I am: the violets smell to him as it doth to me." henry V (from Shakespears's Flowers).

Summer007 -

Thanks for the quote.   The meaning of "king"
in it is troublesome.  What do you think?

As far as Shakespeare's religious views go,
I think the jury is still out on what they were.

From Claudius' speech in Hamlet where he
attempts to repent, one can conlcude that
Shakespeare held the standard religious
views of his time.

But Shakespeare also has Gloucester say in King
Lear:

"As flies to wanton boys are we to the gods; they
kill us for their sport"   (or was it Edmund said this,
I don't recall ...)

This is a pretty bleak and pagan/heathen view
of religion, so who knows what Shakespeare was
feeling when he wrote it?

On the other hand, again, some scholars think
that Lear's daughter Cordelia is a symbol of
Christ in the play, since she is the epitome and
paradigm of forgiveness.

Best regards
David

Lenore -

Here is a link which confirms my claim that many
scholars think there might have been an
alternative "unhappy" ending to the Book
of Job.

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mjob.html

I'm still looking for a reference from a traditionl,
evangelical, or revelatory Christian scholar.

David

James 5:11 "Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord  is very pitiful, and of tender mercy."  I have no dought that James, an eyewitness of the Lord. Would have also put the Fairy- Tale spin on Job. In High School Lit. the Teachers tried to classsify Job as just a piece of liturature not to be taken literally. ( there were three  James one the Lords Brother, and one the son of Zebedee. He and John the Sons of Thunder...who saw the Lord in the Transfiguation. And James the son of Alphaeius.) You seem to be like the doughting Thomas... who said "unless I see in his hands the nailprints, and put my finger in the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe." And the Lord let him do this and said be not faithless,but believing....As far as the un-believing Literary Giants and so called Scholars are concerned I would'nt buy into their theorys lightly regarding the ending of Job. Some twist the scriptures to their own Destruction...11Peter3:16.  Just a quick comment.  I'm still thinking about this!!!

Oh, and regarding Shakesphere..I'm no expert...but I think it meant he was on a level with the king in his humaness. that the king was'nt so high above him. Afterall the flowers smell the same to him, they are not stronger, or brighter for the king, this they could share. The King probibly had alot nicer Vases as well as Bigger Gardens..Ha,ha.... no he was no way near the King, his only common ground was a flower!!! Very Wishful thinking here, and shows a humble state of affairs, eh. He wants to be equal to the king, but he's not.    

Philip Yancey offers another interpration of the book of Job, that the introduction and the conclusion are integral to the plot because they show the cosmic drama, and clue the reader in at the beginning to something going on that Job is unaware of.  What is at stake in the cosmic "wager" between God and Satan is whether Job will lose his faith in God in his suffering.  Instead, what happens is that Job begins to see that a Mediator is needed to plead for him, and believes that there will be such a One, even if it happens after Job's death.

Margaret -

Thanks very much for taking the time toreached o reply.
I find your concept of a plea for a moderator
very interesting.

Apart from fitting in with Isaiah and Jeremiah
in the obvious way, it also agrees with something
by boss said to me yesterday:

that Christianity is the only religion in which
God has reached out to man (thru his Son)
rather than vice-versa.

I'm not sure I agree with him, but it fits in
with your idea that Job's plea for a
moderator was finally answered for the rest of us.

Best regards
David

Thanks David:

I want to comment on your graphic again.
It has a real neat effect, when you scroll down the posts.

Did you make it yourself.

Religion shaping, religion, even the Christian religion has been vented and revented several times,in books where it talks about Church History, the reason why, is that when a particular religion get dark, and not having any light for Jesus for the people to follow, God has raised up another servant that has the fire and committment to preach the true light of the Gospel.
If you look at Luther, Wesleys, Calvin, etc.
You will see that pattern throughout the church's history.

It is not religion so much that matters, that is only the place where we Christian chose to worship, to fellowship with other believers, to participate in Holy Communion remembering the sacrifices that Jesus did for us on the Cross. To hear the word of God be offered out of the mouth and heart of the shepherd ( pastor, minister, etc) , so that us sheep in the congregation, the ones sitting in the pews, may glean  from those words, fire the coals that Holy Spirit desperately wants us to keep burning. So we can use the seeds that were planted, and grow in the knowledge of the Will of God.
To be a living example for God to our Families, our Friends, and our Neighbourhood.

""Religion is Not Christianity.""

It is people who have a relationship with the Saviour , our Lord Jesus Christ, who is our King, our Husband, our Friend, and our Lord.

The Bible does say we have to give an account to our Belief in Our Saviour.
- and I agree, it should be the answer   SHOULD NOT BE "Just because the Bible says so", or because "that is what I believe"

We have to be prepare to give , from the heart, from the spirit,  and account.
Most importantly we will all have to give an account one day in front of our Heavenly Judge.

I have attended Bible Studies, and gave comments, all I was I doing was repeating what I have heard, or read, etc.
I was asked to give account to what I said.
What the leader of the Study wanted, was some personal insight, rather putting some meat on those beliefs.

Is that what you are trying to do.
IS PUT SOME MEAT ON THE BELIEFS.

Lenore

Hi Lenore -

Again, thanks for your thoughtful comments.

About the graphic, Stephen M. Fortescue will
understand the math behind it well, but I gotta
try to tell you what is part of it's meaning.

You know that if the sun is shining directly
above a rubber ball, the shadow on the ground
will be a circle (which is one "circumference" of
the ball.)

So if people lived in two dimensions instead
of the three dimensions of this world (up/down,
right/left, and back/forward), they COULD NEVER
see the ball; all they would know is that there's
a circle they keep bumping into as they move
around in the two dimensions of their flat world.

The graphic is a picture of something similar
that mathematicians know is true.  The blue
dots are the "corners" of a shape which represents
(believe it or not) a shadow of a "4-dimensional"
cube, and the green and red dots together are
the corners of a shape which represents a shadow
of a "5-dimensional" cube.

So the figure says that our minds are built so that
we can not only see things in this 3-dimensional
world accurately, but also see accurate "shadows"
of things in higher-dimension worlds.

People who really sincerely BELIEVE are kind of like
that in my opinion; they can accurately see "shadows"
of things that are not "of this world".

Best regards
David

Sorry! - in the previous post I meant to say that
the "red dots AND the green dots" taken together
are the shadow of a 5-dimensional cube (not jsut
the red dots alone.)

dh,

     I have tried every setting on my printer, but I can still only print your graphic in two dimensions-- do I need an upgrade? :) ;) :D ;D

     Seriously, what you expressed as your opinion:

   ...is pretty much the Bible's "opinion" too.  See Paul's words in 1Corinthians8:2; 13:9-12; also 1John3:2.

al

Al -

Thanks for your reply re Paul.

But here's where it gets tricky a little, cause 500 years
BC, Plato wrote his well-known parable about how
we all live in a cave and can only see shadows of
the real world on the wall of the cave.  And Paul
certainly knew Greek (being originally a Greco-Syrian
Jew before his experience on the road) and therefore
may have known of the parable.  So his words here
may not have been divinely guided.

Of couse, even if Paul did know of Plato's story,
 it could have been divinine guidance that caused
him to remember it and use it appropriately in
a Christian context. so it could be argued you're
right either way.

Anyway, I hope you know my heart's in the right place
and am not trying to be argumentative or back-talk
srcipture just for the sake of doing so.

It's just that the whole "divinely guided Biblical
inerrancy" question is really ripping apart the
Southern Baptist community down here in TN/AL,
and I wish there was a middle ground between
"divinely guided inerrancy" and good scholarship
about the historical contexts of the OT/NT.

Best regards as always
David

David,

     There is little doubt that Paul was learned in the Greek philosophers (see Scofield's note on Acts17:28) and, as you point out, that has no bearing on the source of Paul's inspiration except to the fanatic (whether pro- or con- divine inspiration).  The true believer has no compulsion to persuade the skeptic with clever argument.

     Paul would have had no reason to pretend the source of his thinking, as he had no apparent intent of writing a portion of the everlasting bible, just as no author of the bible did.  They wrote for the purposes they stated or implied, having no way of knowing that their works would live beyond their immediate goals.  Surely a few of the works were intended, expected, or hoped by their writers to live on, e.g. the Mosaic law, but it is doubtful that any of them actually had any vision of the far-reaching effect their writings would have...

     Several threads on this board have addressed the inspiration of the scriptures and have hosted some lively debates  One of the most recent can be found on THE BIBLE:  Modern Translations thread at
 http://www.assemblyboard.com/index.php?board=12;action=display;threadid=691;start=75 (http://www.assemblyboard.com/index.php?board=12;action=display;threadid=691;start=75)
You may find it interesting.

     Speaking for myself, David, I don't think anybody here has reason to doubt your sincerity...

al

 :): Good Evening David:

I agree with AL.

You are apparently a very educated man, who thinking cap is on. And you are allowing us to put our own thinking caps on.

The topics of you and shin, are really causing the spiritual brain juice to flow. Quite frankly. It is helping us to reach deep inside. To seek out the answers that even God is asking us.

Dont forget, The element in faith in something is trust that faith.
God  did not create blind robots to follow him.
He created people who can think, love, and free give those gifts back to him.
Part of that faith is just that faith. But God want faith with legs on it as well.

If I am getting this correctly, It is not God you have the issue with. It is Bible.

My father is not a Christian. He says he doesnt have to go to church to believe in God. He doesnt need anyone to pray for him. Because these churches and the Bible are just man made. He doesnt trust the church or the Bible. According to him they are just crooks. With slanders, scandelous actions of church leaders that has occurred in recent history. He isnt TOTALLY wrong is he.

He deals with God directly.
Remember my Dad is the non Christian saying this.



were can send my two cents. VALUE EXCHANGE BETWEEN CANADA AND USA IS THE SAME! ;D


LENORE

So anyway, here's the deal on my friend from Pennsylvania.

His Mom came of marriageable age right before the Great
Depression really hit hard (for you youngsters out there,
this was around 1928 or so.  She was Protestant from
a middle-class family, not well-to-do but one of the
"respectable" familes in town (she was DAR (Daughters
of the American Revolution.)

She married a guy who was from the same side of the
tracks as she was (the "good" side), but he turned
out to be a real bum who couldn't cope with things
when the Depression really started hitting the area
hard.

So this bum runs off and leaves my friend's mother
stranded. and of course her family doesn't stand
with her because she has created a "scandal".  (They
felt it had to be her fault that the husband ran off.)

So my friend's mother needed a new husband cause
back then women were not being trained  for the
work-force, and even if they were, there was no
work around.  

So there was this Irish-Catholic guy who actually
had a good job as an engineer (not the train-driving
kind, the mechanic kind) on the old Erie-Lackwawanna
line that used to run thru the town.

Now remember, my friend's mother was old-line American
Protestant, and to her, Catholics were not one step better
than blacks or Jews or any other immigrant group
which tended not to run to fair skin.

But she married the Irish Catholic guy cause she had
to for financial reasons, and she never forgave him
for this - that a Catholic could actually help a Protestant
out.

So the way her resentment played out is that she
would argue religion with her husband in front of her
children (my friend and his two brothers) ALL THE TIME.
These arguments never developed into physical abuse,
but according to my friend, there was plenty of verbal
abuse about the Trinity and transubstantiation and
other Protestant-Catholic issues.

So my friend ran away from this into his studies and
eventually became an electrcal engineer and then
got a PhD in a different field which led him to a
professorship at a major university.  In other words
he kept religion entirely out of his life because all
he could remember was the discord betwen his
mother and father.

But the funny thing is - when he got to be in his
late forties/early fifties, he started reading St.
Augustine (the first Catholic "theologian" that we
have a record of - the Church burned the work
of a lot of other folks that we know existed).

And he started telling his friends about these
exercises that St. Augustine told people they
could do if they wanted to hear "the still
small voice of God whispering to them."  In other
words, St. Augustine taught that God is speaking
to everyone all the time, but you have to train
yourself to hear him because he don't yell.
St. Augustine also said (or this is my friend's
interpretation) that this "still small voice" is
what people usually call conscience.  (Marcia -
this is like what you quoted from Pascal about
the vacuum that God is trying to fill.)

So I guess the point of the story is that everyone
has to come to terms with religion at some point
in their life, no matter what their background is.

And that's why I think this board is a neat place to
hang-out - cause it helps people do that.

 

David, How did you find out about the board?? or were you ever part of the Assm? or affliated ? you mentioned Stephan F. did he refer you? just wonderin. Summer.

summer007 -

I'm sending you a private reply to your question about how I
found out about the board because I don't want to intrude
on the privacy of Stephen Fortescus in even the slightest
way.  If Stephen tells me I can post the reply publicly,
then I will, cause it's kind of a curious coincidence.

Best regards
David

Hey Gang,

     What is hilarious to me is that David & I began exchanging messages right after I saw his name as the newest enrollee on the BB & sent him a welcoming message...

     Since he offered his webpage on his BB profile, I looked him up on the web.  As soon as I realized how far beyond my ken he is in science & math, I sent an e-mail to Stephen Fortescue (this BB's resident genius) asking if he would mind my referring David to him if conversations involving math or science should arise...

     I haven't heard back from Stephen yet, which I now surmise is because he & David were already in communication.  Unlike David, I don't at all mind imposing upon Stephen because he used to live in the brothers' house I oversaw and, according to my records, he is still behind in his stewardships! :o

 :) ;)al :D ;D

Yes Al, I would call a House Meeting...let him pick fom a list of Consequences...how about detailing your Car for starters. Is'nt it amazing with all those consequences there were never any rewards...or maybe the reward was the title. ha..Or just being in the Land of Perfect. When I left I just wanted to be free to make a mistake...(and I certinly have made up for lost-time)....A former head-steward to the Sisters.... p.s. I was always nice in fact I left after the sisters came to me and felt they were being picked on by leadership. I confronted them.. my first major problem with them and my Last!!!!

I know that my memory of names isn't all that good, but as far as I know, I hadn't heard of the name Halitsky before replying to a couple of his posts on sci.math.  Although, years ago, I used to work for the Calabasas laser printer controller division of Genicom.  The company acquired another company, Rastek Corporation, doing similar work in Huntsville and moved the Calabasas division there to merge with Rastek.  I don't know whether David Halitsky might have run into any of those Genicom people that I used to work with.  Perhaps he merely did an internet search for my name after seeing my post to sci.math.

The picture of the projection of a 5-dimensional hypercube doesn't look like it is scaled quite right.  Coxeter gives a rule for checking the scaling of that kind of picture.  The rule is called the eutactic star theorem.  What Coxeter had to say on that is one of the things that David Halitsky was asking about on sci.math.

Although the picture isn't a correct projection from 5 dimensions to 2 dimensions, maybe it could be considered correct by calling it a projection from 6 dimensions to 2 dimensions of a 5-dimensional hypercube.  The extra dimension provides another degree of freedom so that the projection can come out thinner in one of the directions.

The expression "supposedly blasphemous" is consistent with not believing that God exists.  Nothing insults a nonentity.

God cares about how he is portrayed.  That is what his complaint is against the arguments that Job's three friends had given Job.  This is important to remember when reading the book of Job.  His three friends were misrepresenting God's character.

Job 42:7
And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.

God also said that Job was correctly representing his character.  In fact Job says things that are prophetic and point to the coming of the messiah.


Job 6:2; 7:21
Oh that my grief were throughly weighed, and my calamity laid in the balances together!  ... And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away my iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.

Then, speaking of the messiah:

Isaiah 53:4-6
Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.  But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.  All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.


Job 14:7,14
For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease.  ... If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

John 11:25-26
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?


Job 16:19,21
Also now, behold, my witness is in heaven, and my record is on high.  ... O that one might plead for a man with God, as a man pleadeth for his neighbour!

Job 19:23-26
Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book! that they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever!  For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: and though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

Hebrews 7:23-25
And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: but this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.  Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Hebrews 9:24; 10:12
For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: ... but this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;


Job 23:3,6
Oh that I knew where I might find him! that I might come even to his seat!  ... Will he plead against me with his great power?  No; but he would put strength in me.

Isaiah 6:1,5-7
In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the LORD sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.  ... Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.  Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar: and he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.

Stephen, Thanks for straightening all that out. If I re-call did'nt you design some of the computer games??? I could be wrong! Have you ever heard of 'Star-Craft'? My sons favorite...He and his friends play on-line. What do you think of this game? That is if your familair with it. Thanks Summer.

Stephen,

     Thank you for that excellent compilation of scripture.  You are hereby excused from all outstanding stewardships & consequences.

God bless,
al

P.S.-- I have absolutely no idea what you were talking about in your dissertation on the five- and six-dimensional projections, but thanks for that, too.  Obviously Summer gets it! ;)

It would seem, based on searching the internet, that Rastek Corporation is no longer in business.  The search turned up a resume of the director of the Calabasas division of Genicom at the time of the move.  It says that he was at Rastek from 1992 to 1995.  I wonder if 1995 is when Rastek Corporation ended?  The search also turned up a Rastek Technologies based in Pakistan which is obviously a different company.

Genicom merged with Tally to form TallyGenicom on August 7, 2003.


There was someone that I helped with some algorithms, who wrote some video games for the Atari home computer.  I wrote a Basic program for a simplified variant of the Minesweeper program, and a program for a Go board.  I haven't yet worked out how to put any kind of scoring or strategy into the Go program.  In general, I don't have all that much interest in video games.

Hi David,

Since you are well read, I hope that you won't mind if I quote from the Bible.  Romans 1 makes a good point that nature itself declares the existence of God. Rom 1:20 "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made"  The wonder and beauty of nature points to the Artist and Creator God.  When you admire a painting or a sculptor or even a piece of music, what makes it even more fascinating is that someone actually painted, or sculpted, or composed it.

The conscience, again I quote from Romans 1:19 "because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them."

This is a brief answer, but others might be able to elaborate better.

Lord bless,
Marcia

Marcia -

It is a true but sad observation on the state of American society
that there are "well-read" people who do not like it when
Scripture is quoted to them or around them.

But please do not assume that I am one of them.

Isaac Newton, the foremost physicist in the world before
Einstein and Heisenberg, really did not distinguish between
science and religion, nor between science and magic.  For
example, the Church of England had to burn alot of
Newton's private papers after he died, so that noone
would be embarassed by his "heresies".  Also, even
though Newton was a believing Christian, he thought
that alchemy was still possible and not the work of
the devil, e.g. changing lead into gold.

So it is only recently that "well-read" scientists and
scholars have become enemies of Scripture.  But I
have to say, this may be because  scientists and
well-read people don't like it when non-scientists
and non-experts pretend to know things they can't
possibly know anything about, e.g. the "intelligent
design vs evolution" issue.

I believe that there are TWO ways for people to
know the world - the way of science and mathematics
(thru the head) and the way of religion (thru the
heart.)  I can read science and math with my head
and still appreciate scripture with my heart.

I wish that more people would be willing to agree
on this obvious compromise.

Best regards as always
David

David,

Yes, most of the early scientists were Christians.  They knew God so they knew that there was an order/system to nature.  Claude(my husband) finds geometric shapes fascinating and he can marvel at the structure of the bee hive or the pine cone arrangement, and then marvel at the book of Ephesians or some other passage of scripture.


But when both the head and the heart come into play then there is a greater wonder and appreciation of nature and of life in general.

The problem with many scientists is that they almost seem to have an objective to prove things without bringing God into the picture, so they end up fudging the results and promoting fake theories.
I recently heard that Stephen Hocking has changed his mind about his black hole theory.  Good for him to be willing to admit and to change his mind about something he was wrong about, but there are many who believed his theories on the black hole to be 'gospel truth'.
There is not many a doctor who has delivered a baby that does not believe in the Designer of the birth process.

Great discussion.
Lord bless,
Marcia