AssemblyBoard

As I have been following this long, weary Modern Translation thread I began to wonder if I realistically relate to the mindset proported.  While I would mentally assent that it would be good if everyone were so familiar with every jot and tiddle of the Scriptures that we would immediate pick up on variant nuances between the translations, is this realistically how we are called (or are able) to live our lives?

I remember once when a sister I was witnessing with was very guilty because she didn't have her daily quiet time.  I soon found out that she had to be at work at 5 or 6 AM and had to take several busses to get there.  I assured her that I would skip my morning Bible reading if she had to be up so early.

Personally, I spend my mornings just trying to get ready and help get the kids to school.  I spend the day in my job.  Lunch is the best time to get a chapter or two in but it is sometimes filled with errands.  Evenings/Weekends is filled with dinner, family issues, homework, taxi kids, home fix-it, editing for church newsletter, bills, church, etc.  I do relatively little television.  Before bed, I have maybe 10 minutes to read and I am generally not in the mood for heavy Bible reading so I read a book - sometimes spiritual, sometimes not.  I try to pray somewhere in all of that.

So, when I come to my little time for Bible reading, I like to simply enjoy the story as a whole.  I am not concerned whether it is the most exact translation (obviously, I'm not going to go for the completely discredited ones such as New World).  I want to get a glimps and feel what God was doing in the context of human affairs and what God might be teaching me about my ways and attitude.   Any of the popular translations and paraphrases do this just fine.

If one uses the word "homosexual" and the other uses a softer word, I'm not going to get my underwear in a bundle.  My Bible reading isn't a drive to prove something.  It's not my "conquer the doctrine" hour.   It is at attempt to take the story as a whole and meditate on God.  If I want to study the Biblical perspective a particular teaching on something, I will depend on real Bible teachers (which I am not) who can explain to me that "the NIV is a little weak on this word" or "the KJV is a bit off here" and this is what it really means in the original Greek.   This is why I think reading solid Christians books is a good idea.

I guess we can weap and lament that people don't know their Bibles as they should "like the good old days" when folks like Bunyon would read through their Bibles three times a year and could quote scripture ad nausiem.   I guess the flip side is to ask "what can we realistically do about it?"  The church today is what the church is.   Busy lives are busy lives.  Even if I was retired, I would have other interests than sitting for hours on my knees before an open Bible.  You can sit and fume and lament at the tragedy of it all or you can believe that maybe God is big enough to work among his people even if we are not all walking bible encyclopedias.

I found that some of the godliest people at my church are those who read their Bible when they can, love Jesus, and spend their time hammering a roof on a widow's house.  They will probably never notice a nuance difference between the NIV and KJV.   But, then, that is why we have teachers.

In the Assembly, the drive was for everyone to fit into George's image of a Bible teacher.  I do believe that there are those who are called to be teachers and those who are intamately aquanted with the Word.  But, is this call for everyone?  Or is there a place for those like myself who read the Word as I have opportunity but would often prefer reading other books?  Or a place for those who seldom like to read at all?

Probably not. But every Christian should be an expert on what the Bible says.
Verne

Verne,

I admit that I'm just being a gadfly here.

How does your idea of the responsibility of every Christian to be an expert fit in with these two ideas.

1. God sovereignly rules his universe through both providence and direct action.

2. God did not make it possible for most Christians to even OWN a Bible for at least 15 centuries after Christ.  He STILL has not made it possible for some believers to read the Bible in their own languages.

Hmmmm?

Thomas Maddux

This is a truly wonderful question and I am so glad you asked!
Could you give me a little time to chew on it carefully and try to give a half-way intelligent answer? I don't want to screw it up... :)



This is actually a very fair and actually quite pertinent observation Tom.
The critical importance of the oral tradition in the propagation of Scripture notwithstanding, I am sure you are not of that camp of neo-evangelicals who are now insisting that there were never any original autographs to begin with and so trying to search for their nearest representation is a pointless excercise...the so-called process school of thought.
The absence of a definite written tradition was not the case with the Old Covenant, and I would submit to you that it is not the case with the new.
The Lord Jesus said to the tempter in that recorded mighty conflict:


IT IS WRITTEN!

There has clearly always been a written tradition of the Holy Scriptures Tom and this is even confirmed by Peter in one of his epistles. The fact that not everyone had accesss to a copy does not invalidate this fact. In fact it underscores the seriousness of the stewardship of those of us who have:

 
   Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.  1 Cor 4:1

That was a really great and thought-provoking observation Tom...I appreciate how sobering it is...God has been remarkably gracious to us has He not?

p.s. I cannot help but wonder if the day is not coming, when on some point of Scripture on which evangelicals now have common agreement, which, if we try to  invoke by following the Lord's example and state with presumed authority:

It is written...

Some godless agnostic will gleefully retort:

It is not!

You had better believe that some of these guys know the Bible far better than the average Christian and is going to eat their lunch on this...

Think about it folks...I really did a double-take when I tried to find that Christ is the healer of the broken-hearted and failed to do so in Luke in my NIV....
I know...I know...it is still in Isaiah,  right?

Verne

This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth, but thou shalt meditate therien day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success  Joshua 1:8

In response to prompting from Global Moderator Thomas "Gadfly" Maddux, I have resolved to attempt to answer the query:

"How does your idea of responsibility of every Christian to be expert fit with these two ideas?

1.God's sovereignly rules His universe through both providence and direct action.

2.God did not make it possible for most Christians to even own a Bible for at least fifteen centuries after Christ. He still has not made it possible for some believers to read the Bible in their own language"

I will respond to the second idea by readily conceding that what I am about to present may obviously not apply to those believers who have not had the remarkable blessing of easy and abundant access to God's wonderful Book of Life.
For the purpose of our discussion, I will postulate that as a practical matter this point should not really concern us.
Those of us who live in this country are without excuse in this regard are we not?

I will therefore begin with the first idea and suggest three important reasons why every believer should strive for expertise in the Holy Scriptures...

More to come...
Verne

The Title make me look up the meaning of Scholar.

Here is the meaning from The Complete Christian Dictionary for Home and School.

SCHOLAR:
N. a PERSON WITH DEEP KNOWLEDGE  OF AN ACADEMIC SUBJECT, A LEARNED PERSON.

SCHOLARLY:
adj.  SHOWING OR HAVING GREAT KNOWLEDGE , HIGH INTELLIGENCE AND A LOVE OF ACCURACY.

So a Bible Scholar: Must be a person with deep knowledge of the Bible.
Someone who is learned of the Bible.


I know I am probably off subject of the meaning of this thread.

The Bible clearly says we can have the knowledge of the Bible.
We all have various degrees of knowledge of the Bible.

As a person who has read the Bible from cover to cover several times.
I have Knowledge, but to be a scholar of the Bible I dont know.
There is always something I need to learn. God says learning is continual.
If we quite learning we stop growing. If we stop growing in the Lord.
We become useless to the Lord.

The question on this thread seems to be surrounding when we spend that time with God.
We are different , our biological make ups are different.
God made us different, with different needs, different genetics, our schedules can be different, our personalities are different, our learning methods are different.
Jesus prayed in the middle of the night, Jesus prayed in the early morning. Jesus prayed when he could get a way. But he always made an effort to communicate with God. Isnt that what is most important, daily communication.
God will show us what we need to do to be in communication.
God will show us when our closet prayer is not sufficience and where we need to correct to be effective.
God uses us the way we are, and he will mold us the way we are. He will mold us to use us to meet his schedule. He doesnt force us to do it. He will not take us nor does he want us when we are kicking and screaming all the way. He will gently prod us, guide us, talk to us.
It is up to us to listen and respond.
I am the worse type who will dig in my heels at times and insist I do my own thing in my own way and me, me , me.
But I come around , talk to God about my stubborness and rebellious nature. God takes my hand again, and guides me on the path again.
Believe the old man rather the old woman in me surfaces frequently, sometimes I can put her back in her place and other times she stubbornly stay front and center.
That is what being human means, to be humble say, I cant do it.

Am I getting off topic again, and going on a rampage.(?)

As for we are being Bible Scholars. Ok I have knowledge of the Bible.
But am I a Scholar. NO. Because I want to remain teachable.

THis is my two cents of thought for today.

Lenore

     Sometimes, it seems, two cents may be enough to corner the market! :D

al

1. God Sovereignly Rules His Universe Through Both Providence and Direct Action.

Indisputably true. But in no way antogonistic to our proposition. On the contrary, in keeping with His prerogative as Sovereign, God commands us to be diligent stewards of His Holy Word.
I would like this discussion to be somewhat interactive.
What is your favorite passage of Scripture which enjoins upon us diligence, in our attention to what God has said?, viz. the Holy Scriptures?
Verne

Verne,

     The concept of having "favorite" verses has never been really clear to me.  Some are much more familiar than others, due to diligent memorization, but knowing them "by heart" has never been a guarantee to me of really understanding them in my heart.  My "favorite" verses are the ones through which God is speaking to me at any given moment.

     Nevertheless, in the spirit of your enquiry, one that comes readily to mind is:
Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 2Tim4:2

God bless,
al




     

I think what initially motivated this thread was pointing out the tension between the ideal (we are to be diligent stewards of the word) and the reality of life (not everyone has the time and mental capability to master the word as others do).

We heard over and over again in the Assembly - we are people of the book, preach the word, study to show yourself approved, etc.  (On a side note, keep in mind that a couple of these were written from Paul to an overseer of a church, Timothy.  We always interprete it as if Paul was talking to everyone, but he was really talking to a specific person with a specific job to do.)

But these exhortations that we heard over and over again don't give practical parameters.  We assumed that George was correct that the way to carry this out was to "be on my knees before an open Bible 4-6 hours a day."  The more the better and none of us (especially brothers) should be lazy about it.  Well, that is just peachy if you don't happen to need very much sleep and happen to have slave/volunteer labor to take care of your affairs.  

In fairness, there was a time where George ran an insurance business and spent a couple hours daily in the word.  But just because he had the drive, capacity and flexibility to do this doesn't mean everyone does.  Some of us have more demanding jobs and family obligations.  Some of us see that, unlike Timothy, we are not called to be overseers or teachers of the Bible.  Some of us believe it can be a godly endevour to work with our hands or read other forms of literature, to coach little league, to interact with friends, to stay current on world affairs and a multitude of other activites that consume our time.

Further, I discovered if I cut my sleep short and push myself out of bed too early ("those who seek me early/diligently will find me") I become an irritable wreck, a low-producing worker, and a really bad witness.

I am not at all suggesting that we abandon the word.  Everyone should have some form of Bible reading - I try to take five minutes three times a day and read a short paragraph and pray over it.  I also try to keep my finger in Christians books and/or tapes that challenge my thinking.  But, each one should determine realistically what God has called them to do.  If God has called you to be a teacher, he will give you the desire, capacity, and time to study.  But let not the toe strive to be the mouth and feel guilty when he or she cannot keep up.

I am not sure I undersand your meaning here Dave. Paul clearly says that he writes these things to Timothy so that he might know how to conduct himself in God's house.
Your implying that because the epistle was addressed to Timothy means that its instructions are not applicable to us is very strange exegesis indeed...  :)


It did not matter whether we were on our knees for two minutes or two days.
It does matter what we do with the Word of God that we read. Dave our failure ultimately has less to do with George Geftakys than many of us are willing to admit.
How do you explain the fact that several of the men around George Geftakys knew him to be an incorrigible liar and a man of clearly inordinate affections, yet continued to aid and abet him? It was clear disobedience to Scripture. Period.
We failed not so much because we followed an apostate, but that we failed to heed the clear teaching of God's Word.


The most potent strategy of the enemy is to make us comfortable in or ignorance and indolence when it comes to the Scriptures. Judging from the state of so many of us today, he has been enormously successful. In my humble opinion both for the erudite scholar and the unassuming saint, NOTHING is more important. Sorry to see you put anything less than paramount importance on this...it is a matter of spiritual life and death.
Verne

Kudos to all who posted on this thread - your insights are great! :)

To respond to the earlier post on Paul's teachings - although Paul had specific "audiences" and purposes in mind when he wrote the epistles (forgive the teaching term, but I teach my students the same concept when they write their essays), Paul's teachings and personal are rich in both doctrine and personal application. If the things that Paul wrote to Timothy, for example, cannot apply to us, then why bother studying it? Pastors, elders and lay people alike can surely benefit spiritually from Paul's instructions. I know I have.

As for whether we are scholars ... a person could study the Bible daily for several hours and still not understand what (s)he read. Most of us don't have the time or resources to attend a seminary or Bible college to become a "scholar". I don't think this term is applicable. Yet, like many of you have wonderfully pointed out, we can - and are to be - faithful stewards ... according to II Timothy 3:15-17, God's word is profitable, beneficial for our spiritual growth. We are to certainly study it, to hide His word in our hearts, that we might not sin against Him ... We faithfully study his word and pursue to complete our understanding of it (sermons on tape, books and Bible commentaries, listening to sound preaching, attending Bible studies, et al.). Then, we live out what we learn.

Currently I am taking my senior English Literature classes through the Anglo-Saxon era. We're studying the history and changes in the English language before we even study the poetry, since the history and society are essential to understanding the literature. My knowledge of A-S could fit onto the head of a pin. Literally half of my 85 seniors are learning English as a second (or third) language. As I study (from credible sources, of course) and prepare my plans, I am fascinated by the spread on Christianity, as well as how complex our language is. Does my burgeoning knowledge make me a scholar? Not in the least, especially if I don't share (or even worse, understand) this knowledge. But if I teach my students the background, and consistently give them exercises and relevant projects to do in order to increase their understanding of our complex, "foreign" language, do my kids benefit? Yes. Will they be scholars? No way. But after laying the foundation of their knowledge, will they be able to acquire learning more successfully, and apply it to other tougher subjects they're required to learn - "living it out", so to speak? You bet.

We are ambassadors of God's Word. We bear a huge responsibility to study it and live out those principles. Even Bible "scholars" will never have full knowledge of the riches and depth of scripture until they get to Heaven. That doesn't negate our duty, but I don't have to stress out if I've missed a quiet time or devotional here and there.

Just some thoughts. Romans 11:33, anyone?

Jerre

Good discussion! :)

  In the Assembly there was a very narrow understanding of how we learn from God.  

  For us Assembly folks the only means of understanding the Bible was through devotional reading.  Devotional reading depends upon how the Word effects my feelings at the moment, and though a legitimate use of the Bible, this is not study.

  As "lay" believers we must study the Bible, as well as just read for devotional purposes.  God has provided scholars for his church as a means for us to study the Bible in our own language.

  There is a difficulty in translating from one language to another (even modern languages) as there are not always words in the translated language that reflect the true meaning of the original language.  Scholarship in the form of commentaries can widen our appreciation for the depth of meaning of a passage.  Without scholars we couldn't even begin to read, much less study, our Bibles.

  So, we need both good thinking (scholarship) and good hearts (reading that moves our hearts) to have a profitable relationship with our Bibles. (when I use the word "heart" in re. to our relationship with God please understand I do not equate this with GG's teaching on "heart knowledge").

  The Pharisees were meticulous students of the Bible and their theological tradition, but erred greatly in their interpretation, so diligent scholarship by itself does not guarantee a right relationship with God.  

  Knowing Jesus and walking with Him can be understood by a small child, an illiterate, or a person with diminished mental abilities.  It is not so important how much we know but in the fact that we are known of God.  Knowing that He loves me and trusting in that fact makes the connection to eternal life, not a concordance styled acquaintance with Scripture.

 This fact should indeed bring to mind RM. 11:33, and with it humility in regard to our knowledge of the Bible.  The center of Biblical focus (the forest we're trying to see through the study of individual verse trees) is the Gospel of the grace of God in truth.

  John Nelson Darby was a truly brilliant Bible student and teacher.  He was learned in ancient Bible languages, and many modern ones as well.  He translated the Bible into several languages.  He was a prime mover in the Plymouth Brethren movement of his time.

  His focus became almost entirely on recovering "church truth" (re. how Christians should meet).  Within a very short period of time this movement splintered into many different sects and each group rejected the other as heretical!  

The focus on Christ and His Gospel was lost by those, of whom many were very able Bible scholars, due to a devotion to their understanding of what was important truth.  Not everyone from these groups lost their evangelical zeal, but many devoted their lives to attacking those whom did not agree with their particular ecclesilogical views.

  I love to study the Bible, but must remind myself that with all that it is most important to "get understanding."  That understanding comes from an honest view of self, my relationships with others, and if I am truly trusting God.  To have a correct theology and "pass by" the wounded souls we see in life is to be way out of step with the Spirit of God.

                                                  God Bless,  Mark C.

Hi, Mark!

Thanks for your wonderful reply. You have a tender, compassionate heart. Not having come from an Assembly background, I can only imagine what was taught about "heart knowledge". (But you cleared that up - thank you.)  Both head and heart need to be engaged when it comes to knowing God's Word. As I see my dear roommate poring over her Bible for hours on end and at times working on her chapter summary, I can only wonder what things she and her group are continuing to "learn" from the Bible. She knows much about "the fall", yet still believes that she is in God's will by continuing to attend meetings (which are now on Saturday nights).

May we continue to indeed profit from the Word by studying it diligently, and meditating on the truths and promises that God has graciously given to us. (Of course, we can do more, but I need another cup of coffee before I write anything else! :))  

To quote a Steve Camp song, may we all be after God's own heart ...

Jerre

QUESTION:  When we refer to THE WORD OF GOD, do we speak of the Bible, or do we mean The Lord Jesus Christ?

ANSWER:  ABSOLUTELY!!!

     We must never neglect the reality that Jesus Christ is the Word Of God made flesh, Who was from the beginning.  Paul tells us that the Word is living and powerful...  Does he mean the scriptures, or the Person of Christ?  Again, the answer is a resounding YES!

     Dare we pretend that the Person of Christ is separable from the scriptures?  Consider very carefully: Are there two versions of God's Word: One a Man and one a book?  How foolish a notion that would be, and yet many put great store in personal knowledge of the book, without attending to building a personal acquaintance with the Man.  That is an untenable position: We can't have one without the other.

     Many fallacies are abroad in the world concerning the Man Christ Jesus and the Bible.  The two are the Same.  Error about one is error about the other.

     Just as Jesus was abused at the hands of men, so can the Bible be.  To read and study the Bible with the natural mind, ignoring the instruction of the Holy Spirit is to abuse the Word, as is assuming a subjective association with the Spirit of God apart from the scriptures.  To come to Jesus and learn of Him takes great humility-- the kind born of an awareness of one's own unworthiness and complete inability to produce on one's own any thought, word or deed that could please God.

     Scholarship is wonderful if it is fully subjected to God, i.e. if Jesus is truly Lord of the scholar.  Scholarship is also a secondary consideration to anyone to whom Jesus is Lord indeed.  God did not seek us out for redemption because He had need of our keen minds or other talents, but because He loved us while we were yet unlovely and, to all others, unlovable.  We have nothing to bring to Christ, nothing that could commend us to Him.  All that we can properly present to Him, ever, is what He has given us in Christ Jesus.

     We are to study (labor) to present ourselves approved unto (by) God, and that approval is personally granted by the Lord in Person to each person who will receive it.  In other words, God's approval will not come at the end of a prescribed course of study, in the form of a document suitable for framing.  Rather, it will be the voice of our Good Shepherd, whose voice we hear and know, saying "Well done, good and faithful servant; enter thou into the joy of thy Lord."

God bless us all,
al Hartman

No one is saying that the book of Timothy does not apply to us.   In every book of the Bible, we attempt to discover what the original writer intended to mean to his original audience in the context of that time period.  From there, we try to discern a principle and then translate it into our contemporary circumstance.

Paul was writing to Timothy encouraging him in his role as elder in a specific, troubled church.  I think as we easedrop into this conversation, we obtain some principles that we Christians need to apply.  But, I wouldn't burden down a mother with four small children with the exhortation "preach the word, be instance in season and out of season" commanding her to, in addition to all her other responsibilities, have a mastery of the Bible in order to feed God's sheep.  Nor would I lay this trip on a man who is gifted with working with his hands and whose primary gift is to help people in the church through practical hands-on means.  For them, listening to sermons and a daily Scripture portion may be plenty.

On the other hand, those aspiring to teach Sunday school, lead a small-group, be an elder or pastor a church should take heed.

The Bible is not algebra.  One cannot necessarily take a statement from an epistle and say, "this is a timeless principle that applies to everbody in every circumstance."  Interpreting a passage in context of who is speaking, who is spoken to and what is going on is not strange exegesis.

-Dave

Hi back to you Jerre! :)

  Thanks for your participation on the BB and your kind reply to me.  I hope that you find the discussion here helpful as you try to help your roomate.

  I probably should mention for your sake, as well as others who may read here, what GG taught in re. to "heart knowledge."

   The crux of the teaching was that God must "speak to you" through reading the Bible.  This might sound reasonable at first consideration but what GG meant by this bordered on New Age teaching (and on some occasions crossed the border).

   In Assembly "Bible study" you were to enter another dimension and have a moment where God revealed through His Spirit special insights that could not be discerned by the mind (no, I don't know how that would possibly work  ;)).

  You knew that "God was speaking" if your interpretation agreed with GG teaching and caused you to lay down your life for the Lord (this phrase,"for the Lord", meant for the Assembly.)  The greatest sign of God's speaking to you, according to GG, was a personal desire to be unified; and consequently the greatest sign of not listening to God was to be "divisive".  God would, for instance, never ever tell  you to leave the Assembly to serve Christ in another group.

  By virtually separating us from critical thinking skills while reading our Bibles GG manipulated those under his control, since criticism was considered of the Devil.  

  All other Christian teachers could have "some" light, but if they did not recognize God's true church and devote all their lives to this purpose they were out of God's will at best, and heretics at worst.

  If you dared to challenge GG's interpretation you were drummed out of the group, if you could not be silenced (all in the interest of unity of course ;) :'()

  If this sounds cultic to you it is probably because it is. Though some far-flung Assemblies may have tried in the later years to moderate this cultic view, they were so deeply rooted in this system that it still existed in some form.  The only way to get free from these roots is to identify them, pull them all out, and find a whole new way to look at reading the Bible.

  Ask your roomate, "what is God teaching you from your reading?"  I don't mean to ask in a harsh and critical way, but just to hear what she has to say.  If her answer is, "God is showing me that I must give all my heart to Him," ask her, what does that mean.  If the answer includes loyalty to the group, ask how she gets that from the passage.

 She may only answer with a generality, or something personal like praying and reading more, but let us know here what she says and let's see if we can help you with helping her to the restoration of her critical thinking skills.

 The Bible is filled with some wonderful verses that encourage testing our thinking via a willingness to accept criticism.  James says that humble acceptance of correction provides the means wherby wisdom comes from above, but rejection of a willingness to have our views tested means we are out of the way.  This is exactly opposite to the way that GG taught.

                                God Bless,  Mark C.    

The qualification for scholarship has more to do with one's contribution to the body of knowledge of a specific discipline than with formal titles or training per se.
Using that criterion, the vast majority of us, learned though we be, would not truly qualify.
If you have witten a thesis of any sort, you probably qualify in a minimal sense.
The study of the Holy Scirptures should not be considered in my view in such a carnal and worldly light, no disrespect to those holding the Th.D.  :)
God's words are spirit and they are life.
Much of what passes today for serious Scriptural discussion is little more than contempt for God's Holy Book.
The Word of God in only our heads profits us little. George Geftakys certainly demonstrated that.
As with the eternal Son, in each of us the Word must be made flesh, that is to say, we have to live it!



This is about as insightful as anything Mark has observed about Geftakys and the assemblies and really sums it all.
I have said repeatedly, and taken heavy criticism for doing so, that if you remained with a man like George Geftakys, particularly those who served in leadership responsibilities close to the man, you were  by definition compromised, and compromised deeply.
I do not make that case in a condemnatory way. A failure to acknowledge this stark reallity is in my opinion the reason some of these men will never recover...


Verne