AssemblyBoard

This all seems like a dream. The whole time I was in fellowship I was taught that I needed to reverence George as if he were infalible.  Is George Geftakys really tolerating discipline? Where is the butt-kicker I once followed?  Where is the MAN who is always right?  Something doesn't seem on the up and up. Right now  If I were still in fellowship I would be experienceing  a strange conflict within myself.  That  would be Georges' admission to being human would  cause me to question why then for years why did I just "take whatever he says as from the Lord.."?  Why did I ruin my marriage at his council?  Why did I forgo carrear opportunities at his council? Why did I give my money to him (when I didn't have a fraction of the wealth and possessions he has)?  If George is now admiting he is human then he has to go back and admit these wrongs also.

Dave,
One of the hardest things about facing your assembly experience was that we mostly did it to ourselves.

I never saw any whips and chains in the assembly.

We were all asked to do things that we preferred not to do many many times.

We evaluated those "requests" and compared the desire not to comply with the loss of things that we desired even more, and then made our own choices.  We wanted many things, to be part of something really big, to be around people we loved, to "be somebody", to be near a "great man", to avoid rejection, whatever.  Each individual had their own list.
(I am speaking of adults, and I realize that wives had a somewhat different situation).  
Anyway, ultimately, every adult is personally responsible for every choice they make.

Now, we can say, "they decieved me".  But, was there no other information available?  No books?  No other ministries?  No counsellors?  

I am not saying that decievers and manipulators are without blame.  But we ALL need to realize that we were WILLING participants in our involvement in the George Geftakys assembly.

Humbling isn't it?

Remember the mote and the beam.

Tom Maddux (who just put on his flak jacket and helmet).

 

Dave, I have the same thoughts here.  George repent? wha?  
I can hardly believe it.  He was like impregnable.  What did they say to George, anyways?  
"Brother George, we recognize your greatness, godliness and annointing. May we humbly suggest, oh mighty one who is like unto Paul the apostle and David the king, that (and we fall prostrate before you in obeisance as we say it, for we know it must not be true) the sightest possibility exists that you may have, maybe, made a very minor error? I know we are wrong in saying this, of course, and so we repent in dust and ashes for even thinking such a thing.  Please do not cast us into outer darkness.  Oh king, live forever!"

Tom Maddux:
Now that was hitting the nail on the head. Sooner
(is better) or later we have to come to grips with our role in all of this assembly business. Pride(elitism) is one of the major reasons some of us either were attracted to or stayed with the assembly as long as we did. This may depress us for a time, but facing it will help us recover our sanity and health. It also shows us our need to depend upon God in this world, too. If this lesson is learned I believe our sorrows, anger, etc.  are metamorphosized into the all things that work together for good....

If George "repents", it won't be much different from Dave G.'s repentance.  He'll probably be in charge of the ministry after he returns from China or vacation.

Ok, I'm a little confused.  Please help me clarify.

This is what I understand:

1.  George G. was disciplined by the "work".
2.  George G. is not allowed to partake.
3.  George and Betty will still be receiving money from the treasury.
4.  David is still receiving money from the treasury.
5.  George has been asked by Scott Testa to preach this week.

Please help me if I am not understanding this correctly...

Tom, I wholeheartedly agree with you when you say " we were willing participants"  It has been a very painful process to come to a point where I had to admit O.K. I have some serious problems. Why did I play the assembly game for so long? Have I learned anything?  A few months ago I was in a Sutra study. (Hacienda Temple) At the begining I senced "Something is not right here."  As weeks  passed I witnessed some innapropriate behaviors on part of the leadership, ex: public humiliation etc... Although I enjoyed the study/ fellowship  I finally stopped going. It was a drag as I had invested my whole summer with this group but one concilation was I had  learned from my past experiences.

Tom----

It's really strange when I remember my involvement with
the Assembly. You are right, we were "willing" participants,
but at the same time I left twice and returned because I
confused my "wanting to leave" with "rebellion against God". So, though I was a "willing participant" I was at the same time a "prisoner of false guilt". I always wanted to leave because I knew something wasn't right, but unfortunately the people "in charge" had a very powerful tool at their disposal: The Bible. By using this tool in the  way they did fear dominated my life. True, there were no locks on the doors keeping me in, no whips or chains(at least physically), but there was fear, and that is a very powerful thing. So even though I was a "willing participant" I was also deceived at the same time. When you are told that your desire to leave is motivated by sin or the enemy,
and your rebellion against God, that is deception. So I find my Assembly experience to be a combination of my own willingness to be there, and yet also a great deception that was used to keep me there. I hope that doesn't sound too confusing.          --Joe

Ok, I'm a little confused.  Please help me clarify.

This is what I understand:

1.  George G. was disciplined by the "work".
2.  George G. is not allowed to partake.
3.  George and Betty will still be receiving money from the treasury.
4.  David is still receiving money from the treasury.
5.  George has been asked by Scott Testa to preach this week.

Hi Eulaha, regarding number five.  If my wife were not 37 1/2 weeks pregnant I would be on a plane from Texas this weekend to be there and hear what was said, but the Lord knows.

Later,
G

Tom,

I respectfully disagree with you to some extent.  I agree that yes, we were not FORCED into the Assembly, bu I believe that there were PSYCHOLOGICAL chains that kept us there.  Ok, to be fair, there are people out there who have left who could see thru all the bull, but there were others (eg-newly-saved individuals) who didn't know their Bibles well enough to make an informed decision.

I tried to leave a total of four times, and the first three times I tried to leave, I was told that I was leaving the covering of God, I would be in sin to leave, I was "in the flesh" and needed to repent.  I was told that God didn't honor me if I left.  So, what choice did I have but to stay (if I sincerely wanted to walk with the Lord and to receive my inheritance and all that)?  Psychological chains kept me in.

Now, I'm no trying to say that I am not to blame, but  am not fully to blame for my involvement in that group.  I do take some responsibility, and do not wish to play the "poor victim" role.  But, I suffered a lot, and am still suffering.  Any input?

Does anyone know if George has accepted Scott's invitation?  If so, does anyone know the day, time and place where this will happen?  Will this be a repentance type meeting or a business as usual meeting?

Eulaha and friends:

James 3:1-2  My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgement.  For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stunble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body.

I think this passage sheds some light on the idea of culpability.  In a fundamental sense, those who teach the word are held to a greater degree of accountability, because what they teach (mis-teach) has an effect on those who submit themselves to their teaching.

So, we are all guilty to some degree for not walking out the door the first time we came to an Assembly outreach.  Or are we?  What about those who were born into the group, who had no choice?  What about those who received Christ as Saviour in the group.  God can use that, and 0bviously did.  And what about me, who learned some hard lessons, in "Potiphar's house?"  

No one has been more authoritarian in their claims of being teachers, with the possible exception of the pope, than George Geftakys and his servants.  These men referred to their speech as the voice of God, all the time.  We travelled, 3 times per year, to the seminars, in order to "Sit at his throne and hear His word."

The reality of the situation is that we were hearing a man speak.  Oh yes, I was blessed every once in a while, but that was mainly when I was reading along in the bible, sometimes in a totally different passage than the one George was asking us to turn to, and I got encouraged by the Lord.  The same thing happens when I listen to Christian radio, and I can do that when I'm on the boat.

The fact is that these men set themselves up as teachers, and demanded that we listen to them, obey them and imitate them.  The Bible clearly says, they will incur a stricter judgement, especially for the false things that they taught.

People should keep in mind that the abuse issue is only a symptom of a greater problem.  I left the Assembly before the abuse issue, as did MANY other people.  The doctrine was bad, and therefore the practice was bad.  Soon, we shall be able to explore this side of things, and this is where most of the healing will take place.

Brent

AMEN Brent

The way I look at, we're dealing with two kinds of people here.  People that are different not just in actions or attitudes but different in their very nature.  From what I read in the Bible, it seems that all of human kind can be (and indeed will be by God) separated into these two categories.  The righteous and the unrighteous.  The first children born into this world were prototypes of each - Able and Cain. The Bible also describes it as the wheat and the tares, the sheep and the goats, the sheep and the wolves.  Isaac the son of promise was perecuted by Ishmael the son of the slave woman.  Jesus said that the world hates his disciples because they are not of the world just as he is not of the world.  

I believe these men do what they do because it is their nature.   I do not believe there will be repentence.  Do any of you honestly believe that these men will have a change of heart?  Will they fall on their knees and say "Oh, what have I done?!  I can't believe I have hurt these dear people so much.  I am so sorry!  I must make things right!"   Do you think they would say such a thing from the heart?  It is not in their character to do so.  What we see now has been observed for all of our known contact with these people for 30 years.  This is what and who they are.  By their fruits you shall know them.  Can you gather grapes from thorns?
There may be some who will repent, who really do have a change in heart, as we have seen some in leadership already do so.  These are the ones who typically have had some issues with the group all along and were never, in their heart, fully with George, Betty, et al.  


Look at these verses and tell me if they don't apply.
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.  Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?  Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.  A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.  Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.  Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.   Matt 7:15-20

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.  And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.  And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not...But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;  And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;  Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:  Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;  But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.  These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.  For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.  While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.  For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.  For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.  But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.  II Pet 2:1-3, 12-22

For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ....But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.  Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.  These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;  Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Arthur!

Excellent verses.  I got the chills reading some of those passages.

Thorns indeed.  But there are still many genuine ones there. May God have mercy.

Brent

Hi Authur and Brent, I just wanted to make the point clear that we do not know if any yet all involved in this cess pool of deceit are thorns, tares, etc.

I agree with you when you say we may never see them repent, but we must not let that point consume us to the point were we cannot be healed (as much as can be I have no idea, but I know that God is Faithful)  

This one thing I do know though is that GOD and He alone will separate the sheep from the goats, He will be the one that sends people to that outer darkness were there will be weeping and grinding of teeth.  We clearly know that they did not do His will in this situation and other, therefore like Paul we can say though not there I already have judge them, but even he whom he judge received mercy though deliver to Satan.

Lord Bless, and Look up for you redemption draws near!
G

Yes!  I'm glad I'm not the judge!  I just got a call from one that thought was gone without hope, asking for forgiveness.  I am so happy and excited, it almost seems too good to be true!  I sure hope it does turn out to be so. God is so good.  Praise the Lord!  I haven't said that in a while.  

Authur, I will say it with you PRAISE THE LORD!

 ;D  Amen!

You know, I've spent so much time on this web site and bulletin board, and most of what we do here is recount, look at, and define the problem.  Now it seems as if there may be a solution.  I'm like, what?  Oh yeah, I forgot about that possibility.  Hey yeah, a solution is a lot better than a problem!  I wasn't even hoping anymore or thinking it possible.  This is so wonderful--if it's true.

Arthur and everyone!


The only reason this website exists is in the hope of a solution.  Destruction could have been caused through legal means.  The whole purpose here is to see repentance and reconcilliation.  Yes, it is happening.  But...it is not over, and is not complete.  We need to stand firm, uncompromising, but also with the understanding that God has grace for these people.

They need to repent, yes.  But we need grace to forgive.  If there is no repentance, there can be no reconcilliation.  However, if we do not forgive our brethren, up to seventy times seven, when the come to us saying, "I repent." then we miss out on reconcilliation.  Luke 17 1-4

Then He said to the disciples,  "It is impossible that no offenses should come, but woe to him through whom they do come!  It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.  Take heed to yourselves.  If your brother sins against you, REBUKE HIM; and IF he repents, forgive him.  And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, 'I repent.' you shall forgive him."  These words are red in my bible.

Let's not start gushing love and tolerance, when we really don't know what is happening.  Instead, let's prayerfully wait, and receive all those who come saying, "I repent."

Brent

You know I love you honyepie,  yes, with God all things are possible.  We found out about this and three days later we were gone.  But I must ask, why aren't people FLEEING FOR THEIR LIVES when they discover these things?  There is something in it for themselves that they are unwilling to let go! :'( :'(  At some point, you have to let go of that pride you speak of and REPENT of it and the only thing I see to do is FLEE.  

How can those of you who are staying align yourselves with this wickedness? :'(

"Gushing love and tolerance"?   Heh, sounds like greenpeace.   Ok, well I'd like to know what's going on.  I'm sure it will all unfold before us in due time.  In the meantime, the possibility of reconciliation is something to look forward to rather than rehashing what went wrong, though it was humorous at times.

The situation hasn't entirely presented itself to me, so I can't say 100% for sure, but I think I'd be willing to take back anyone, despite what they did to me, so long as it was genunine on their behalf.  I think that's what that verse is talking about, if he returns to you and says, "I repent", then you should forgive him.  Of course the real clincher is: is it genunine.  That will take some time to determine.  Perhaps that is what you are addressing, Brent.

But I am hopeful.  I mean, is this coincidence or what? I write this post "...Do any of you honestly believe that these men will have a change of heart?  Will they fall on their knees and say 'Oh, what have I done?!  I can't believe I have hurt these dear people so much.  I am so sorry!  I must make things right!'"  And then a few mintues later I get a call from just such a one who says "Please forgive me for such and such...", and I think he really meant it.  I don't know what to think anymore, but I have a glimer of hope again, and for that I am thankful to God.      

Kim, I wonder the same thing.  I have no idea why anyone would still want to be in there.  But it seems like each comes out in his or her own time.  People haven't seen what I see or know what I know.  No doubt, I would have stayed longer had I not found out some things.  I might have left sooner had I found out sooner.  Another thing is that people may not have experienced anything really bad happen to themselves personaly and so it is just a story to them.  Once they get bit real hard themselves then they leave, if they think they can.  I hope everyone can find a place of rest for their souls.  God have mercy on us all.

George's pride has overcome him. He will not repent no matter what happens. He has been given so much power that he doesn't understand what it means to be a "sheep" under the shepard. We must pray that an impossible miracle would happen in this blinded man's heart.

I pray that George see's the same Goodness of God that Solomen saw near his end, since it is the Goodness of God that leads men to repentence.  In the mean time stay from him and those that support and supported him in this sin and others until the repent.

Lord Bless,
G

Ulaha,

Dear sister, isn't it great!!!!! It's OK to disagree about something!!  Praise God. :D

You have made a good point here.  I guess I need to revise my opinion some.  I would say that in deceiver/deceived situations, the responsibility factor shifts in accordance with the ability of the deceivee to figure out what is going on, and still be unwilling to face the facts.  
The assembly, of course, along with all cults and cultic groups, preys on college students and young people because of their limited life experience, which makes them good candidates.
I was a college graduate, a veteran, and had been a Christian for 8 years when I met GG.  I should have known better.
I still feel that the chains are primarily emotional, which leads to a willingness to supress "red flag moments"
Remember these?

God bless,
Tom Maddux

Hi Everyone!
  I guess this is the moment that we have all been waiting for and one that we should continue to try and define.
  It would be a huge mistake, and would entirely miss the point, if all we saw was the need for GG to repent of just the Dave G. debacle.  One could say it was a good start, but if the foundational errors of Assembly teaching and practice are not exposed and repented of the abuse will just continue.
   Yes, we must understand our claim of being victims will have different degrees of personal cupability, but that is not the issue for repentance here.  The key is to understand the system that emerged from the flawed premises on which the Assembly was established in the first place.  GG's own personal pathologies were expressed in a terrible perversion of the Bible that led to systematic abuse of those who thought they were following God.  There can be no deeper abuse than using the name of God to manipulate other's to meet your own personal needs.  This kind of abuse is destructive at a very personal level and I believe rises to the warning of our Lord re. offending his little one's.  
   Certainly, the Lord in the above passage does not add a reminder to the Little One's that they share some culpability in the fact that they are being offended, and He gives the warning to the offenders only.  Sheep and little one's, by definition, are helpless.
   It behooves those who have learned from our past abuse to share in the concern of our Lord and to stand against "offenders" and to protect the "sheep".  This means we should keep our definitions clear re. "who is who" here and what constitutes a true clearing of one's self in the whole Assembly situation.
  Even if a couple of individuals called me up to apologize over how they treated me and my family while I was there it would be incomplete if they did not see that such past abuse was founded in a set of principles that the Assembly practiced and must be fully admitted to!
  I don't think many of those still in the Assembly really understand how abusive their practices have been or where those abusive practices find their origins in their basic understanding of the Christian life.  Until there is a willingness to see the foundational errors on which the Assembly house is built any repentance will be built on sandy soil.
                           God Bless,  Mark C.

Yes, that's it.  How can you blame sheep or a little child?  It seems some would say, "You stupid, why did you let yourself get abused like that?" Jesus didn't say such a thing.  He had compassion upon the multitudes because they were like sheep without a shepherd.  You are right Mark, there are the offenders, the wolves, and there are those who are being offended, the sheep.  The wolf and the sheep have completely different natures, and that is what they are their whole lives, they don't change from one to another.  A sheep can't become a wolf, nor can a wolf become a sheep.  A tare can't become wheat stock, nor vice versa.  A wolf may be clothed in sheep's clothing, and so look like a sheep, until he attacks, then it is clear that he is a wolf.  Tares look like wheat until they mature and begin to produce poison as their fruit instead of nourishing wheat germ.


Very well said, Mark

Arthur

Eula,

 Tom and evryone else.

         It has been my experience when talking to a counsler or any good trusted friend who lends an ear that after getting a good idea what I have been through and where I have come from they with open mouth amazement say "How did you make it out of there?"

Again I have read many books on recovery and for the most part WE WHO HAVE SURVIVED ARE IN PRETTY GOOD SHAPE!!!  Remember there are people who have taken or attemted to take their own lives!   We are the true "overcomers!"