AssemblyBoard

One more for the flame.  Arafat's dead.
Though much of the major media portray's him as a great guy, let's consider his list of heinous crimes:

-invented airline high-jacking's
-commanded the massacre of entire Christian villages in Lebanon
-responsible for the deaths of 11 unarmed Israeli olympic athletesin Munich in 1972
-planned many bombings of schools, pizzarias and other public places.
-responsible for the deaths of 21 children at a school in Ma'alot in 1974
-extortionist, gangster, liar, breaker of the peace accord he made in Olso, and the list goes on...

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2004/11/11/arafat_the_monster/ (http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2004/11/11/arafat_the_monster/)

http://www.paulreveresociety.com/ArafatTrailOfBlood.html (http://www.paulreveresociety.com/ArafatTrailOfBlood.html)

I can imagine him as the rich man being tormented in the flame this very moment.  In life he killed and lied his way to power, enjoyed the millions his racket made for him as well as world popularity (thanks Kofi), but in death he has no comfort from the incessant torment of the flame.

Arthur

Christ also died for Palestinians. We should pray for the peace of Jerusalem.
Verne

I read that Arafat may have made a request to be buried on the Temple Mount. The jews say they would never allow it, but the arabs say they don't care, they will do what they want. Even in death he still causes division.

--Joe

I caught about 15 minutes of Limbaugh today, while changing the fuel filter on the Excursion.

He was talking about the Limbaugh doctrine for Israel/Palestine.  He basically said this:

1.)Peace has never been achieved on paper, sitting around a table negotiating.  It has only been achieved following victorius military action.

2.)Let Israel and the Palestinians fight it out, and after one side defeats the other, there will be peace.

I like this approach, because it makes things like Arafat and his potential burial plot non-issues.  It's not as if Yasser cares right now where his body ends up.  Even if he did care, why should they let him?  Did the Israeli athletes get to choose where they were buried?  

I was so happy this last week, knowing that Kerry wasn't president, and that Arafat was really ill.  Now that he's dead, I am even happier.  

Osama, you're next.....I hope.

Brent

Limbaugh is not nearly as erudite as he pretends to be.
I once heard him dismiss the notion that there was repression in South Afica because Blacks there were in the majority!
I found it virtually impossible to take him in any way seriously after that asinine observation.
If military might were sufficient to achieve the peace in the Middle East, Israel would have it.
His analysis is right for an entirely different reason Brent.
Israel will be betrayed after being convinced by other nation states that its peace will come via rapraochment with her adversaries.
It will not. They can maintain, through military strength, their security though, which is an entirely different matter.
Remember, the sword will never depart from the house of David... :(
Verne

Although God is angry with the Wicked everyday, it also says he has no pleasure in the death of the Wicked. Why? because he's Long-Suffering not willing that any should Perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.

Yes, I am aware of this verse.

It bothers me a little that I don't feel much compassion towards terrorists.  I know that Jesus died for them too....at least that's what virulent dogs (non-calvinists) believe.

Nevertheless, I can't seem to feel sorry for them, neither can I wish them well.  I don't want to be a missionary to terrorists either.  In fact, I really don't like them at all, and think that justice will be done when someone kills them.

If this makes me a Jonah, I need a big fish....perhaps that's just what I'll get.

One thing I won't be is a phoney, and pretend I have a heart of compassion for Islamic terrorists, because I certainly don't.

If you find it in your heart to love these people, Summer, then you are certainly more godly than I.  

God Bless,  and let all those who do not love our Lord Jesus be accursed.

Brent

Brent, Its God who so Loves the world. I too find it difficult to love terrorists. I personally don't know any. I do have a friend thats going to Teheran at the end of the month, I asked him to bring me a nice souvenier (like a persian rug) I hope he gets out. His mother is sick and he needs to visit her asap, he cannot get her or his sister out of the country. This person is a resent convert to Christianity, from the Muslim religion.   Summer.  Psalm of David 139:21-22 Do not I hate them, O Lord, that hate thee? and am I not grieved with those who rise up against thee? I hate them with a perfect hatred: I count them my enemies.                                                                

Arthur, Its obvious they could do what they wanted. (except go to and from the compound) Summer...P.S. Did you hear about the slaying in Amsterdam? Muslims slit the throat of a video producer who did a film on Muslim woman. They vowed to kill him and they got him out riding his bicycle last tuesday, his last name was Van Gogh a distant relative of the Artist. Now people in Amstrdam are starting to re-claim their Christain Heritage. They've also retaliated by setting fire to a Mosque. They want the Muslims OUT! Interesting for such Liberal people. ( Our God is a consuming Fire)

Just a Thought: How many Muslims would be saved if say Billy Graham would be blasted over the loud-speakers in the Arab nations 5 times a day? one, two, a thousand, a million. I would think there would be quite a few that would be saved. Thats why the Gospel is such a threat over there, the Power of Salvation. Although many have no consciences, or faith for that matter. Would you consider this casting your pearls before swine, that turn and trample you? (also bear in mind these are Abraham's off-spring through Ismael Hagar's son, and alot of the Koran has to do with this, as well as Mohammad being the profit, they speak of Moses and Jesus etc.) Has anyone read Salmond Rushties 'The Satanic Verses' ? BTW he still has a death-sentance on his life for writing the book.

There's an interesting (older)article here:

Understanding and Responding to Islam in the Light of September 11

www.christianity.com/partner/Article_Display_Page/0,,PTID34418|CHID137699|CIID1479840,00.html (http://www.christianity.com/partner/Article_Display_Page/0,,PTID34418|CHID137699|CIID1479840,00.html)

Friends of Israel website:
www.christianity.com/foi/ (http://www.christianity.com/foi/)

Marcia

Im not so sure, about Billy Graham being blasted over a loudspeaker...

We have 24/7 Christian radio here, and our society is hardly transformed.

In my mind, a strong case could be made that Muslims are cursed.

1.)They deny the deity of Christ, and give a man, Mohammed, pre-eminence over Jesus.

2.)They have added to, appended, and ignored God's word, both by dismissing part of it, and placing their own books above it.

3.)They hate the Jews.
4.)They treat women like dogs
5.)They sacrifice their children as part of their worshipful duty as muslims
6.)Lying, stealing, deceit, (Baksheesh) is woven  into the fabric of their culture, much more so than western nations.

I could go on....

Please, don't anyone counter this by arguing,  "You think we're Christians!  You don't think our culture has problems?!"

I didn't say anything about our culture in this post, but have said plenty in others.  Please don't do that.

Brent

Marcia,  Thanks really good sites, and informative article. Summer. BTW Brent you do have a point about the Christian radio, the only problem is we have freedom of religion, they do not. Also did'nt Jesus say love your enemies, pray for them. Mt 5. The Lord will have peoples from every kindred, tongue, tribe and nation in heaven. He's the one who said, "forgive them, they know not what they do".  Clearly Muslim World Domination is their goal. And Paul said whoever does'nt Love the Lord let him be accursed. So if your enemy is hungry feed him, etc. God will take care for the Vengence, not us.

Hi Summer,

Thinking about all this is really challenging for me.  There was a time when everything was clear-cut for me, including stuff like this topic.  

Love your enemies meant that if someone did something really wrong to me,  I would "bless" them in some way.  Here is an example:

I had an employee once,  (the first non-Christian to ever work for me)  and she did some stupid stuff, like tell patients she wasn't happy in her job when she heard they were hiring etc.  After confronting her about this, she gave notice, and made her last two weeks very awkward indeed, even telling me that I was a religious fanatic/hypocrite. (I'm sure I was, as I was totally serving Geftakys at the time)  

I gave her 3 weeks severence pay, and even bought her flowers for her last day at work,  because she was "against" me.  My thinking was that by doing so, I would "heap coals of fire upon her head," and that she would be won over by the "love" that I showed.  

I am sure that if her heart softened towards the Lord, I would be the last person she would call, because my actions were whacko at the time.  She had zero respect for me, as a person and as a Christian.

What I am trying to say is that I had a mindset that never allowed me to stand against anyone, or anything that was wrong, and never allowed me to defend myself.  If I was treated spitefully, I would rejoice that I was being persecuted, and would see it as an opportunity to share Christ.  When people owed me money, I wouldn't collect it, etc.   Plenty of "saints" have borrowed money from me and never repayed it.  

Today, I am convinced that I was totally wrong, and that people are much more inclined to listen to a person who has a backbone and who stands up for themselves when they are wronged.  I confused religious persecution---which I have not really experienced outside of the Assembly---with being treated unfairly by a mean person.  My reaction was strange, which earned me no respect at all, and actually hindered my testimony.

Now, I look at it differently.  If I don't stand up for what is right,  I don't help anyone, especially the person doing wrong.  I teach my kids to be kind, honest and forthright, but also teach them not to suffer abuse or bullying, and to stand up for themselves.  

So, back to the Muslim thing,  I think when it comes to nations things are even more different.  May God bless those who are led to share the gospel with Muslims.  I heard the two women (Heather and Dana?) who were missionaries in Afghanistan, who were imprisoned for sharing Christ.  They loved the Afghan people, but were also happy that our military killed the Taliban...interesting.

I think God gives nations the sword, in order to carry out justice in this world.  I won't take up the sword in order to execute judgement on unbelievers, neither will I use the sword to defend Christianity, but I have no problem with the idea of our military using the sword against another nation or people...

So, I don't have a heart of compassion for the Islamic nations, regardless of how I might feel about individuals who live there.  I do wish they would come to Christ, but they aren't going to, except in small numbers.  

I think they, as a nation, deserve to have justice administered to them.  The idea of feeding them, or helping them in any way is totally repulsive to me.  I see them as enemies, and don't want to help them anymore than I would want to help a rapist who has his eye on my daughter.  Rather, I would want to inflict violence with intent to kill on such a person.  I wouldn't pray with them, or hand them a tract either.

Rambling thoughts here, to be sure.

I'm just not so sure how to apply all those verses about loving enemies, wiping dirt of our feet, casting pearls before swine, and acknowledging those who are accursed.  It isn't so clear anymore.

One thing that is clear, is that I won't shed a tear, or even have a moment of pause over Yasser's death, neither will I mourn when Hussein, Bin Laden or any of the others meet their end.  I think it's neat that Hitler is dead too.

I will shout praises and give glory to God when the Beast and False Prophet are cast into The Lake of Fire as well as the wicked.  

Just being honest here, and I am open to instruction on the matter.

Brent

Brent, I think so many of us were taken advantage of in the Assm that its hard to trust anyone,(like x-files,trust no-one) we always have our guard up, I know the feeling. Also God loves the honest heart, better to be honest then hypocritical, as God see's and knows our hearts. He wants us to be real with him, otherwise what's the point, were only fooling ourselves. Anyways I like what you wrote and can relate. Summer.  p.s. Arthur, Yassars wife gets 22million a year out of Arafats 4 billion stash, not bad,eh. Also most Arabs have a thing for blonds, could explain the blond hair, and their are some blond Iranians I worked with one, he told me about it.

Yep, although I trust plenty of people.  I can honestly say that my experience in the past has not ruined my ability to trust.


I agree.  I clearly remember being a hypocrite, and staying home and complaining about the state of things in The Assembly to my wife, but then when I went to the meetings I would say,  "Praise the Lord."  Disgusting!  

After I left I finally figured out that I needed to say something, and that God wasn't going to heap coals fire on their heads, or move them to righteousness, blah blah blah.  He was waiting for one of His own to trust Him and grow a spine.

One good way I was changed as a result of the past is that people know where I stand on things now.  People who know me may disagree with me, but they are always clear on where I am coming from and what I believe.  While it is harder to have a phoney smile and play act, it is much better to have meaningful relationships based on integrity and mutual respect.


I thought I read that she gets 22 million a year from the Palestinian "State."  This is over and above what Yasser may have been worth.  Last night I was reading about Yasser's billions, and the person writing the article said that the Palestinian Authority's finances were centrally controlled by Yasser, meaning that there was a high temptation for impropriety, and very little in the way of a paper trail.  (sound familiar?)http://in.news.yahoo.com/041112/137/2hugd.html (http://in.news.yahoo.com/041112/137/2hugd.html)

The various banking governments and at this moment attempting to sort out what he owned and who it now belongs to.  The author concluded that even without a paper trail, there are ways of tracking this sort of wealth, and that although it is difficult, it can and will be done.

Yasser is a common thief and extortionist, not to mention the father of modern terrorism.  He also got a Nobel Peace Prize....what a joke.

He died in France, not Palestine, which just seems right to me.  He never achieved his goal, but he did manage to live high on the hog at the expense of the people who supported him.

The blond hair thing is well noted.  When I was in Israel, with a blonde haired girl as travelling companion, a bunch of Arabs pinned her up against a wall in the Arab section, and began to grope her and touch her hair, saying, "Blondie."  I shoved two or three out of the way and they left her alone.  I was amazed that they would do this, but learned later that Arabs view women as top livestock, so it was really not much different than petting a horse at the state fair.  Such a noble culture!  Death to the Jews!  Death to America!

Brent

Summer007:

The assm definately had some lasting effects on all of us... those effects differ depending on independent experiences. But I understand what you mean...

In the assm, I know that I would hide who I reallywas because I thought I was such a horrible person, and to live that openly would be to make a bad situation worse- I was afraid of the leaders, my peers, and the other "saints".

I think what's important, and I know someone said this earlier (probably more eloquently...)- honesty is the only and best way to go. So yeah, sometimes it might be hard to trust other people, it might be hard to let people in, but if you're honest and objective about it, that can change. But healing like that takes time. So just hang in there summer, there are people out there who are cool and trustworthy. You just have to find them. You'll know who they are when you meet them though- they'll be the only people around who aren't trying to be something they're not.

I've got a couple of questions:

1)Does this prophesy mean to include all of Israel?

2) What does Daniel 11: 14 mean? Who are the "robbers" or as another version puts it: "violent men"  who are trying to establish the vision? Zionists? or does this refer to Israel's enemies?

Thanks,
Moonflower

I have another question regarding all of this.

As Christians, we firmly believe a few things regarding the nation Israel.  Certainly the vast majority of believers hold to the idea that Israel is going to be surrounded by enemies and defeated 3.5 years into the seventieth week of Daniel.  We know that the nations will rage, and that things are going to get worse, not better, etc.

Given this, should we take a deterministic approach to world issues, knowing that it's all going to happen as spelled out, regardless of what anyone does, or should we try to make a difference?

I don't know this to be true, and certainly won't defend it vehemently, but it seems to me that if Christians remain salt and light, and if nations do what's right regarding Israel, we postpone The Day of God's wrath.

I know there are some big holes and problems with the paragraph above, but there are also some good reasons to substantiate it.

Anyone have any ideas on the matter?

Brent

A thought-provoking question indeed. It seems to be that ultimately the destiny of the nation will not be affected by our choices, but our destiny will.
As soon as God completes the church, all hell is going to break loose.
No question its presence now has an incredibly restraining effect.
The Biblical teaching is quite clear regarding how God views the world based on its behaviour towards His own so for the Christian, how we should think about and act toward the Jewish people is in no way in doubt. This is fundamental.
This, by the way, does not mean that we cannot criticise the nation's  leaders.
The way to avoid the paralysis of deterministic thinking is to clearly understand that what is also being worked out in time and space is the destiny of individuals, that is to say , your destiny and mine. This puts us, as it were, in the thick of it...like or not.
Verne

Just a thought; Won't the World be thrilled when all of the sudden Christians are removed from the earth. I wonder what explaination will be given, the process of evolution?, alien abuction, who knows? What will probibly matter to them is their same-sex marrages, and the convenience of the chip in their right hand or forhead, that Christian groups were opposing so venemently. Now they can elect the One World Ruler of their choice, not knowing its the Devil incarnate right out of the bottonless pit. Oh he'll give them the 3.5 years of false-peace, everything will be rosy for that period of time. There will be some who discover whats going on and refuse the mark, they will be beheaded, and just thought of as insane to not go along with this great plan. (tribulation believers) Then the Jews will see the Abomination of Desolation sitting in the temple and they'll know they've been fooled. About this time the seals are opened, then the seven trumpets, the seven woes, and the last seven plagues. Then the Lord will return and Rule and Reign forever.

Emily, Thanks for your sweet encouraging word. I'm hangin in there. God Bless You! Summer.

A world with no church will be rapidly over-run by every evil, repugnant and foul spirit imaginable.
Mankind will finally get a  glimpse of the  true nature of sin.
The kind of frightful assault on the souls of men that is now only hinted at in the worst of nightmares and the most initiated of the horror novelists will become a thing of common experience. Men who have rejected Christ will rapidly learn who is their true master...it's gonna get very ugly....but it will also probably be the biggest harvest of souls for Christ the world has ever seen.
Verne

Verne,

Someone has said to me that the "sword will never depart from David's house" means only the immediate family of David's. I believe that it goes farther than that, and since you used the phrase in that context, can you give your supporting arguments for it?

Who are the "robbers of your people", in Daniel 11? Zionists? From articles I've read on the web, not all Jews are Zionists.

Thanks,
Moonflower

I do not want to be here; When the sun is darkened and the moon is turned to blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord. (Joel 2) Can people be saved that have recieved the mark? or have they eternally dammed their souls? There's a verse in revelation that suggests if you take the mark you've really sold your soul. Yet in Joel it says whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Me neither. There are some countries in which it seems they are already a hell on earth. Imagine that across the whole world, and worse.
I'm thinking that they won't be able to call on God after receiving the mark. Receiving the mark will seem to be the only logical option for them, and they may have literally sold their souls. Maybe the same principle of Esau, who couldn't repent afterwards.

That is technically true. I think that you could make the case though, that since David was of the tribe of Judah, the standard-bearer, and that what he did he did in his capacity as king of the nation, that it has national implications.
I do realise that this is open to debate and don't want to be dogmatic on this point.
The robbers are quite interesting. The way I think about this is from the perspective of what is most unique about the Jewish nation. We are in debt to them for both the Holy Scriptures and the Messiah.

And in those times there shall many stand up against the king of the south: also the robbers of thy people shall exalt themselves to establish the vision; but they shall fall.  Dan. 11:14  


If I were to think about robbery, it would be with respect to these two greatest of treasures.
One way to rob a peson is to profer a counterfeit.



Interesting question.
I do not believe they can.
the implication is of course that there are certain things that you could do which would preclude your being able to call on the name of the Lord in the sense Joel means.
There are places in Scirpture where God specifically says that some will call to Him but He will refuse to answer them.
Do not forget that the concept of eternity includes not only the infinite future, but also the infinite "past"!
Ask yourself the question - when did God first think of you?

Some will object on the basis of time's (more precisely  space-time) having a "beginning" but that is another topic.  :)
Your use of the expression "eternally damned their souls" is packed more full of theology than you probably realise!  :)
People who accept the mark of the beast fall into an extremely rare category of individuals described in the Scripture.
From what is said about this select category, one has to conclude that for them there will be no salvation.
The group includes:
Angels that sinned, Judas the son of perdition, those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit, (and no, I do not know what this means!) false prophets/teachers, and those receiving the mark of the beast and worshipping him....
I cannot think of any greater demonstration of God's remarkable mercies than that none of us who are saved can ever fall into such a frightful category...God is good!

Verne

You are suggesting then that the robbers are Israel's enemies, and not Jewish people? What vision, then, are Israel's enemies aware of that they trying to establish? The antichrist?

Moonflower
 
Is this Calvinistic thought? :)   I think that GG preached that it was possible for us as saved individuals to take the mark of the beast, meaning that there are probably other Christians who teach that, too?

Moonflower

It seems clear in Rev14:9-11 that anyone who recieves the mark will drink of the wine of the wrath of God that is poured out with-out measure into the cup of his indignation. So I think the ones who'll be saved in the trib period are ones who realize Jesus is the Messiah and believe and refuse the mark, therefore they should be killed Rev 13:15-17. So how do the Jews get through the 3.5 year period, with-out taking the mark, or do only some of them take it? or maybe they are just getting the enforcement underway, when they realize the Truth.

There's a Story I heard of a man who was being resusitated at the hospital, apparently he had clinically died. He saw the tunnel and about three or four benign looking people there that said come on we've been waiting for you, as he walked with them down the tunnel or passageway, they became meaner by the minute and more sinister when they arrived in hell they started biting, and scratching him, hitting and pounding on him, he said the thing was he knew he deserved it, and then he saw the Lord passing by and he called out to Jesus something like help-me , and the demons or former pals, whoever they were, drew back repelled at the name of Jesus. The Lord came and carried him out of the hell he was in. At this point he was resusitated and gave his life to God.

Arguably the most terrifying verse in the Bible.
Every person who has lived to draw breath as a sinful new-born does so by virtue of God's prevailing mercy.
People who accept the mark of the beast are destined to experience the unmitigated fullness of the wrath of Deity - something impossible for us to even imagine.
In fact, the Bible explicitly states that that some are indeed fitted for Divine wrath.
On the one hand my heart breaks at the prospect of any human having to experience this.  :'(
On the other hand, who am I to argue with the Almighty?
To God alone be the glory.


Many will not.  It seems that everyone will face the choice.
Considering how big this world is, if the Biblical meaning is, as I believe it is, that every single person still alive during the great tribulation will have to render a decision, clearly there are going to be dramatic changes in the progress of space-time to bring each soul to a place of being faced with the choice of worshipping the beast. There will literally be no space-time in which a person can hide!
 We probably won't be around to witness these events...
Verne

Not necessarily. The nation ususally follows its leadership, both political and spiritual, down a path of destruction. Some scholars believe that the anti-Christ will be Jewish. It seems highly improbable that Israel would ever accept him as Messiah otherwise.
 
George Geftakys was an evil man Moonflower. Place absolutely no stock in any thing he taught you. It is safer that way sister.
It so happens on this particular point he was engaging in his usual practice of manipulating the emotions of his hearers to suit  his own purpose. Neither life nor death can separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. This is fundamental - the security of the believer.
I am now personally convinced that those who do not accept this truth are not truly saved. Radical? So be it. That is my position.
Verne

     Bear in mind that, unlike in the days of Christ, relatively few Jews today think of the Messiah in terms of an actual person.  Jesus' 33 years on earth, and especially the manner of His departure, marked the beginning of an even greater blindness to the things of God on the part of Israel's seed.  

     Nowadays, the average Jew thinks of the Messiah only as a concept, if at all.  For this reason, the Jewish leadership might readily accept as "messiah" anyone with an agenda which seems to bring Israel into its own, as they view it.

---

     There are "other christians," i.e. nominally christian groups, sects, denominations, etc. that teach almost anything imaginable.  Our only protections against such error are the Lordship of Jesus Christ in our lives, the certainty of His promises, and the guidance of God's Holy Spirit.  There is absolutely nothing we can do to save ourselves from deception.  Thanks be to God, the grace He has extended to us in and through His Son is more than adequate for the task!  Trust fully in Him.

Blessings abound where e'er He reigns,
al

While there have indeed been some changes in Jewish culture, a lessening of their sense of national identity is not one of them. The anti-christ will have to have both political and religious (spiritual) credibility. There is no concievable scenario under which orthodox Jews (and they are the ones who will control the religous agenda,  as they did during Christ's earthly sojourn) would ever accept a non-Jew as Messiah  in any capacity!, IMHO.
But you do make an interesting point about what will indeed be a prevailing spirit of accomodation...

Verne

Maybe I missed something, but I don't remember reading that Israel was going to recognize the antichrist as their Messiah. I thought they were going to make a pact with someone, midtrib, who will promise them peace, but they won't recognize him as the antichrist until he places himself in the temple to be worshipped. I assumed that because he was promising them peace, that he was an outsider who is and will be causing unrest and war with Israel.

Moonflower

No one has this stuff all figured out, including me.  However, it is my understanding that a large majority of current teachers believe that it is AFTER he sets himself up in the temple, that the Jews KNOW he is NOT the messiah.

I am not sure if the Jews accept him as messiah, but certainly he will have the ideas, charisma and practical solutions to so many problems that the entire world will view him as a savior of one sort or another.  I am sure the Jews will too, but am unclear as to whether they will see him as Christ.

The point that has always bothered me is that all this is marked by the "peace process."  I am happier when Israel is at war, defeating her enemies, not when she is signing a peace accord.

Brent

I have read several books concerning Revelation and the Antichrist. Most of the writers feel that Israel will be deceived by "the Beast" and receive him as their Messiah. "Who is like unto the beast?" everyone will be saying. For 3-1/2 years he will appear to be a miracle worker, but then he will reveal who he really is and set up an idol of himself in the Temple and seek worship.

Almost every writer believes that the AntiChrist will have to be a Jew for Israel to receive him as their Messiah. "Me you will not receive, but if another come in his own name, him you will receive" Jesus said. One really interesting thing that several authors(including Arthur W. Pink) have surmised is that the AntiChrist will be Judas Iscariot returned to earth. Jesus calls Judas "The son of perdition" when he says "None of these have I lost save the son of Perdition, that he might go to his own place". It's interesting that Jesus says that Judas went to "his own place" and says that the antichrist will come in "his own name". Judas is the only person labeled the "Son of Perdition", and Paul calls the antichrist the "son of perdition" who will be revealed after the rapture.

Jesus also said "have I not chosen you all, and one of you is a devil?" It is just conjecture, but could it have been possible that the Son of God and the Son of the devil(the son of perdition) were on earth at the same time? One died on the cross("cursed is he who hangeth on a tree") and was cursed for us in the most giving act of all time, the other committing suicide on a tree, after having committing the most selfish act of all time(betraying the Son of God for 30 pieces of silver)?

One ascended to heaven, the other descended back to "his own place" in perdition. One to come back on a white horse, the other to ascend once again from perdition to become the Antichrist(Revelation says the antichrist "once was, is not, yet is" and ascends from the bottomless pit.

None of this is really all that important, but I thought I'd share it because it has always intrigued me.

--Joe

Joe this is absolutely fascinating!
Judas Iscariot has always been a real theological thorn for me.
Notwithstanding the fact that I am a full-blown five-point Calvinist  :) Christ's ucmpromising statement that it would have been better for Judas never to have been born has always been deeply perplexing.
Despite the trouble so many have with the Cavinist view of predestination, here is one clear and uminstakable reference by the Lord himself to Judas' inevitable fate.
What you have suggested about who Judas could be opens up a whole new universe of thought on this and I find it incredibly interesting. It is causing me to rethink the whole matter of the message behind the wheat and the tares. One has to wonder if there are many sown by the enemy!
Man... this really gives me the creeps..! stop scaring me dude...
Verne

That is interesting.

Isn't the antichrist also healed of a "deadly wound"?

Moonflower

---

     OK, Verne, now you've gone and piqued my curiosity:  What, exactly, does a "full-blown five-point Calvinist" have to be scared about?  :o  ???  ;D

---

al ;)

J. Vernon McGee gives the interpretation that I've most often heard for Daniel 11.  Verses 6 through 17 cover the time period of about 250 B.C. through 195 B.C.  Israel was caught in the middle of warfare between descendants of two of the four generals of Alexander the Great, Seleucus in Syria and Ptolemy in Egypt.  After verse 35 the prophecy leaps forward to the coming of the Antichrist.

Moonflower----

Again, it's all conjecture, but some of the author's I've read think that when the Anti-christ(whoever this leader is) is assassinated(Revelation says he is slain somehow)
that the devil, but most likely "the son of perdition" will then enter and use this man's body. His body will ressurrect to the amazement of all, though inhabited by a spirit from the abyss--this could be why he "was, is not, yet is" all at the same time. It is the son of Satan, Satan himself, and the False Prophet appearing on earth as an unholy trinity of evil. But again, it's all conjecture--but very interesting.

--Joe

When George Geftakys dies, will hell be that much fuller?  How about TIm G?

     That may depend upon how effectually and fervently we pray for them...

al

So if George isn't saved, it may turn out to be my fault?

Brent

Do you think so?
Is there a Biblical precedent for not praying for someone?
Verne

Brent,

    If I say that everything, everywhere, always has been and always will be your fault, can we get beyond this kind of silliness? ;D   ...Or does your post actually have a point? ???  You were the one, after all, who started a thread called Pray For George & Betty's Repentance:

          http://www.assemblyboard.com/index.php?  
          board=6;action=display;threadid=524;start=0 (http://www.assemblyboard.com/index.php?  
          board=6;action=display;threadid=524;start=0)


al ;)

or mine??

Depends on how righteous you are!! ;)

Marcia

Yes, my post has a point.

My point is that if George goes to hell, it will be his fault, not mine.  To suggest otherwise is utter nonsense.

There are plenty of people I don't pray for, for plenty of reasons.  Not only that, perhaps I am a lousy prayer person for those I do pray for.  The fact is, their salvation is not in jeopardy due to my substandards prayer life, neither is it more sure because of your fervent prayers.

The point of what I said is that I was trying to illustrate the false premise of your post.

Brent

     Oh.  OK.  Why didn't you just say so?

     So, what exactly did I post that was false?

     And what exactly is the point of your "Pray For George & Betty's Repentance" thread if our prayers aren't going to make any difference anyway?

al

Al,

You anwered a question,  "Will hell be fuller when George dies?" by saying,  

"That may depend upon how effectually and fervently we pray for them...

No, it doesn't depend on us, whether George is saved or not.  That is the premise I am referring to.

What did I mean by my post with regard to praying for George and Betty?  I meant that it would be awesome if they repented and that we should pray for their repentance.

I never said that our prayers don't make a difference.  I am saying that it's not up to us whether George is saved or not.  It is entirely up to George, is it not?  God knows who belong to Him, and His hands aren't tied because of my poor prayer life, neither are they strengthened by my awesome prayer life.

Prayer makes a difference, but that is quite different than saying or implying that someone's salvation depends on how effectually people pray for them.

It's that simple.

I am sorry  to have brought it up actually. The reason I did was because your answer sounded pious and spiritual, when in fact it was based on a false idea. (In other words, not only was your anwer not correct, it wasn't biblical either.)  That sort of thing still really gets under my skin, which isn't good.  I should have just let it go.  It isn't that big of a deal.

We are told to pray for one another.  We aren't told that if we don't pray, they may go to Hell and it could be due to our lack of fervency.  There is a big difference in these two ideas.  It isn't sin not to pray for George.  I don't pray for him everyday....not even close.  In fact, until recently I didn't think about him at all.  I have been thinking far more about Gene Edwards than George.  I'm not praying for Gene either.....but I will pray for George.  It's been a while.

Brent

Brent,

     Thanks for explaining, and for your openness.  I guess I'd have to say that my response to Uh Oh's post was reactionary to the vagueness of the latter's purpose.  I apologize.


     We agree on the essentials of both redemption and prayer.  It was never my intention to imply that we can pray folks into heaven or out of hell in spite of themselves, but I can see now how you read it that way.

     My reference was to Jas.5:16b: ...pray for one another, that ye may be healed.  The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. (also 17-18)  The righteousness, while it must be manifest in us, is not from us, but from God through Christ (Rom.3:21; Ph.3:9; etc.)

al