AssemblyBoard

Hi Everyone,
  I'm like a kid in a candy store ;D.  I think this is going to be my favorite spot!
 The Gospel is my favorite topic and one that I find is always fresh and new.
  Why do I like Grace so much?  Certainly because I need it so much; but how did I become so aware of my need?  My heart always hungered for a sense of completion instead of the emptiness I felt within( more on my story later).
  I found that completion in Jesus Christ, but then strayed into a path that sought to find that grace in a church here on Earth; that church was the Assembly.  Grace can not be found in a church, ministry, a great man of God, or any other thing apart from Christ himself.  Christ has not named any group on earth as his official administrator of grace as there is only one mediator between God and Man-- Christ.
  The Gospel is personal (God loves YOU as an individual, not the group) and loves you just as you are.  God does not love you because you can perform well in the Assembly or in any other church.  How can you worship, commune with God, fellowship, minister, meet, etc. correctly? By being in the right group?  The New Test. pattern is Jesus Christ and by knowing him we have all of the above.  Grace is all of God and to receive that Grace is to have God in his fullness!
 There is one caveat to receiving grace and that means I must give up my self righteousness.  Grace can not live where I try to serve God based on my own merits.  This is as true with the Christian life as at new birth.
   Assembly friend, accept nothing less than Christ and his grace that is sufficient for a full salvation.    
 God Bless,  Mark  

[shadow=red,left,300]Hi Mark![/shadow]
Welcome!
As usual, I love reading your posts. I think we are just getting warmed up here.

Hopefully I will be able to get more involved in the board now, things are getting easier to manage.

Keep the encouragements coming! I am so stoked by this whole thing.

Brent

Hi Mark & Others,

Mark, I always appreciated your gospels that you shared.  As is your character, you're in the candy store!  The article is excellent.  It is true to the Word!  It is true you're only going to find grace in Christ.  No service is going to "find" that grace for you.

Eric

Hi Eric, Brent, and I hope Others!
  Yes indeed, I am in the candy store!  What a great bulletin board and what a great opportunity to be a blessing to many!
  Eric, I'm glad that you always liked my sharing of the Gospel and I loved to share it.  I remember looking out over the "Saints" as I preached and seeing their poor dejected faces light up as they took encouragment in God's grace.  Too bad it was soon followed with the GG message of conditional grace (an oxymoron) and the same faces would be cast down to the ground again.  For the little sensitive one's the weight of trying to perform to "win Christ" took away any hope that they might be able to "lay hold" on God's grace :'(.
   Brent, you and your website team have done a great job!  I may be up your way in a couple of weeks and would love to toast (Martinelli's Sparkling) you and yours!
                                        God Bless,  Mark

Hi All !
  I think that this is a good place to start up a conversation re. "Union and Communion".  It relates directly to a correct understanding of grace and a rejection of the Assembly teaching re. GG's false mysticism.  I realize Christians differ on their views as to the part played by the believer in the experience of communion with God and I certainly do not claim to be an expert on the subject.  However, there are some basic concepts that all Christian's must agree on or we depart from Biblical based belief.  These basic truths' are the one's I would like to establish and show how GG's departure's are closer to new age teaching then they are New Test.  Now I fully realize that GG mixes in much Christian orthodoxy and seems to contradict his own teaching at times, but until he clears up his error it is necessary to point it out.
  The issue of "union and communion" is of utmost importance for it can lead to great blessing or a great curse in our lives.  I hope for some good discussion on this topic as I do not intend to pontificate on the topic.  I think others will be able to add their story and perspective as it relates to the Assembly and widen our consideration.  I will discuss the concept of "Union" first at the next post.
                                                      God Bless, Mark

Union:
  The use of the word "union" is often confused with the experience of God in a believer's life and instead has to do with the fact of our place in Christ.  Our being united to Christ is due entirely to the work on the cross.  GG would confuse the understanding of union to mean our "taking the place" of victory and at that point we are then united.  Rom. 6 says that the work of God was sufficient to unite the believer in Christ.  To understand how our union leads to communion we must not isolate Rom.6 from Rom.7-8 as it helps us to understand the experience of the Christian in his actual daily life. We can't go into a vs. by vs. here as it would be too lengthy, but I would encourage reading all the above at one sitting to get the flow of thought.
   Why is it important to see the distinction between George's teaching on "union" and the way I describe it above?  To leave my union with Christ contingent on my own action leaves me to depend on the strength of my own will.  GG's teaching also leads to another dangerous element and that is basing my life with God on "the experience" of the Holy Spirit in my life.  This is where the false mysticism comes into play, as I have to try and manipulate my inner life through tricky inner doings to "win" the experience of victory.  Since, as GG teaches, Union is not a fact and victory must be grasped by the believer he opens the door to a whole set of discipline's that are designed to manipulate the inner life to a state that  experiences the blessing God has for us.  Many of us are familiar with these: The Heavenly Ladder, The Selfer's Prayer, etc.  This kind of direction sends us deep within to evaluate why we are not "laying hold" on the correct key that will achieve a pure undistracted communion with God.  This is usually identified with purity of thought as well as an emotional sense of ecstasy (more on the emotional aspects later).  
  I hope this will get us started on the topic and hope to get other's views.             God Bless,  Mark
   

Great topic Mark

I think you have it just right.  The Assembly teaching improperly shifts one's gaze off of Christ and on to Self.  How can it not?  Christ's work is finished, once and for all, but now, we were taught, IT IS UP TO US TO APPROPRIATE WHAT HAS ALREADY BEEN ACCOMPLISHED.

This is where the trouble comes. In this type of thinking, grace is reduced to a spiritual Gatorade, which only gives us the tools we need in order to do "His Works," which are nothing more than our works, in the final analysis.  If we neglect "His Works," as is the manner of some, we lose out.  Our spirits may be saved, but the other two thirds of salvation, soul and body, are up to us.  God is merely an investor, demanding a return on His investment, instead of a Saviour.

Keep it coming Mark.

Brent

Thanks Brent.  I was able to access the site via the instructions that you sent.  Thanks also for your comments.
  Communion:
     This is the topic that I'm still trying to understand what happened in my Assembly Experience and how to understand it now.  Discussing communion re. GG's teaching is also tough because it is so contradictory.  I also carried my B.C. (before Christ) baggage from my past experience in mysticism.  I hope to get a lot of help from others as they share their own understanding of GG's teaching and their experiences with same.
     As I previouly mentioned, under GG's incorrect understanding of salvation we have no foundation for a living relationship with God as our union is not assured and can be lost through our failure.  Of course, failure is where we most need God's presence in our lives.  Under GG teaching our inability to claim our union with God will multiply our despair.
    Having understand the above what then is Communion?  Communion is the actual experience of God in a believer's life.  I'm not going to go into a Greek word study here, though a study of subject would be interesting.  The way I understand communion is the experience of God's presence in my life.  We are told we have his presence and that indeed we can't escape it.  Communion involves not just the fact of his presence, but the enjoyment of it.  There are some things about this topic that defy explanation and will not fit neatly into a tract about "how to have communion."  We do have times when we have a sense of his presence with us, or that God is speaking to us.  We also can have emotional experiences that come from God (after all peace, joy, etc are all fruits of the H.S. and are surely emotional).
  So, how is GG off on this topic?  I think, though he would deny it, that he had us pursuing an inner feeling of purity that we achieved through our own discipline.  We were to charge into God's presence and "Win Christ" by means of purifying our hearts and minds first.  We had a process of purification ( this he exemplified through teaching re. the O.T. priesthood) of getting spiritual holy water and blood sprinkled on our hearts in order to ascend into his presence.  Of course after a glorious morning time we had to face the world and lost the whole experience after the first guy cut us off on the Fwy.  The whole experience above was very similar to my Eastern Religion styled mysticism and led to an unhealthy duplicity in my life.  You could see it in GG's life as well for he could be "caught up in worship" one moment and the next be shouting and fighting with someone in traffic ( Yes, he came to blows with some at times).
   Please share your thoughts on the topic with all.
                                              God Bless,  Mark

Hi everyone

I am starting to get the feel of this bulletin board now. The best way to check out what's new is to scroll down to new post's and click there, instead of winding all the way thru a thread.

Mark, with regard to communion, I was sailing in the British Virgin Islands in 1997, and went to a "cruiser's library" which is nothing more than a bar with a lending library. On your honor, you leave a book, and take one that is there.

Well, I wasn't interested in anything, but one book caught my eye, Commmunion, by Whitly Streiber. It was about UFO abductions!  Believe it or not, this got me to thinking, because all we had been hearing about for the last year was "communion."

I am convinced that communion with God is as simple as confessing our sins.  I know that His blood washes me, cleanses my conscience, and brings me near.  So I don't worry about it! I find myself thinking about the Lord, praying, speaking to Him (not out loud usually) and best of all, enjoying Him, all the time.

What interrupts this for me is when I fight with my wife, and am too proud to say I was wrong, or when I do something I know does not honor Him.  I have found that when I humble myself and confess, I know his presence again.  It has nothing to do with AM times, or prayer. I may read the Word everyday for a month, or I may not read it once for 2 weeks, although the latter is rare.  It doesn't matter, because my performance, or lack thereof, has no bearing on being accepted in the beloved.

Ah, the simplicity that is in Christ!

Brent

Hi Brent,
  Yes, GG subtlely led us away from simplicity in Christ.  The hard part to unlearn (for me) is the emotional patterns.  Sometimes I'll wake up in the morning and just FEEL impure, but with no clear reason why.  Under GG's system you develop a huge doubt re. your own inner condition and try to look for the same "feeling" of purity you had at high points in your life.  "High points" may be a good way to express it as one's search for "inner purity" becomes almost a narcotic desire.
    Sailing in the B.V.I.'s?  My Mother lives in the Caribbean; on a little island near St. Maarten.  Her house is for sale.
   I wonder if the Angels that visit GG and give him his revelation are UFO's? ;)        God Bless,  Mark

I've been one of the lurkers, both here and at the Rick Ross site.  I have been wanting to "sound in" and contribute for quite some time.  For reasons I won't mention now, I need to be somewhat circumspect in what I contribute.  However, at some time in the near future, I will feel more at liberty to share all that is on my heart.

I want to say to all those who have contributed (Brent, Mark, Joe, David, Terry, Eric and not the least of which is my dear husband Greg, please forgive me if I have left someone out) it has been such a blessing to listen to the reasoning and discussion that has occurred at these sites (of course we were never encouraged to have THIS kind of dialogue in the past!)  I don't know what you all who left, prior to the internet being such a useful tool for this purpose did, in light of processing the devastation of leaving the assemby!  If we didn't have this vehicle, I would seriously have considered therapy-just to be able to dialogue and process the many years, stories, etc.  What a blessing - THIS IS FREE!!!!!  (A BLESSING UPON YOU BRENT-FOR I CAN'T IMAGINE WHAT THIS HAS COST YOU TO ESTABLISH THIS-THE LORD WILL RICHLY BLESS YOUR CONTRIBUTION!)

I was just thinking there has not yet been a sister who has contributed in these forums.  Does this proceed from our Assembly teachings????  I have never, nor will ever, be a silent sister.  I have opinions, beliefs and I think some wonderful conversation/thoughts to contribute to the body of Christ!

I want to say a special thank you, both to Mark and to Brent, for their wonderful insight into many of the Assembly teachings/practices, etc.  Your perspectives have weeded out the Assembly confusion and mumbo jumbo that we are indoctrinated with and oftentimes have put things so simply as to easily lay hold upon them (in contrast to the Assembly doctrine that is oftentimes shifting or confusing and not easily laid hold upon.)

I could continue and write a treatise (perhaps for another time) but will simply sign off with a HUGE THANK YOU!!!!!

FREE FROM BONDAGE, FINALLY AND FILLED WITH THE FRUITS OF THE SPIRIT!!!!!!

YOUR SISTER IN CHRIST,

KIMBERLEY

Hi Sister Kimberley :)!
  It was great to see your post!  I could feel the joy of deliverance from just reading what you had to say.  A Sister's place at this site is to step up to the BB and to state your heart! (unlike some places :'()
  I'm glad that you are finding help from what is posted and in turn others will find help from what you post.  That is the great thing about this kind of "fellowship" we all have a contribution to make that is unique.
  I'm wrestling right now with understanding communion as the Bible teaches it vs. GG's view.  It has been a very helpful topic because even after being gone 11 years I still suffer from my previous toxic faith.  Toxic is an appropriate term to describe GG's teaching as it "poisons the well", as Terry said.  Also, just having your thinking straight doesn't always cause the emotions to follow.  Irrational fear is just that, irrational.  Emotions can be damaged and this can  leave us wounded, though the Assembly is no longer taking it's whacks at us.  When we just shove down those emotions and try to "move on in our lives" we will have to face them somewhere down the line.  This is all to get to the point of agreement with your post that "talking" together with those who also have been through what you've been through is very helpful.
   I found few Christians in other churches that could understand what I was going through.  I wanted to tell my story, but people looked at me like I had a screw loose or that I was a weak person because I was duped by a group like the Assembly.  It is not a lack of intelligence, mental instability, or a weak character that led us into the Assembly, but a desire to achieve our best for God.  GG took advantage of that, but God always looked down on our hearts' and honored that desire.  I believe wounded pilgrims are very close to his heart indeed and that he will heal them and use them in a very special way.  More to say on that, but this post is too long!   God Bless,  Mark  

Hi Kim

Thank you so much for your kind words.  This has been a costly endeavor, but it has been money and time well spent.  Just so you all know, I have done very little work on this bulletin board. I have a silent partner, who has been working his tail off in the background.  You owe him a lot of the credit for the bulletin board. (of course it was my idea and credit card... ;D ) Look for a brand new, way better site in the future.

With regard to sisters contributing, there are a number of them lurking about, and I know they will appear in time.  This isn't easy, because anyone who's name shows up here is going to get excommunicated, which can be traumatic.  As for me, I find it somewhat comical, but it is very hard for many. In time, with the likes of Mark Campbell, and others adding very good insight, more and more people will join in.

We already have well over 500 page views! The site is frequented by guests as well.

I do look forward to you writing something once you get things situated. And, I am so glad that this has been helpful.  Have you bought any of the books that we reccomend in the reading list?

The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse is an awesome book, and will help you tremendously.

Brent

 <<I found few Christians in other churches that could understand what I was going through.  I wanted to tell my story, but people looked at me like I had a screw loose or that I was a weak person because I was duped by a group like the Assembly.  It is not a lack of intelligence, mental instability, or a weak character that led us into the Assembly, but a desire to achieve our best for God.  GG took advantage of that, but God always looked down on our hearts' and honored that desire.  I believe wounded pilgrims are very close to his heart indeed and that he will heal them and use them in a very special way.>>

Sheesh Mark,

you made it to "full member before I did :-\

You hit on a real key. I am convinced that people who were in the Assembly MUST talk about their experience with someone.  There are people out there who understand, but they are few and far between.  Believe it or not, ex JW's, who are now Christians seem to get it real quick.  Their culture is eeerily similiar to The Assembly.

Also, ex Local Church folks also "get it."  However, there is nothing like talking to a person who has been there.

The worst thing about GG's vision, is that it uses a person's sincere desire for God as a weapon for destruction.  This is a horrible thing to do, and George is only beginning to reap what he has sown.

You are right Mark, God does have a special plan for us.  We gain a discernment that is very costly, and there is much we can do to bless God's people where ever we fellowship.  

Something to keep in mind: Most of what we learned was good! However, the leaven of the bad, ruined much of the good. It takes a while to sort it all out, but it is not unlike Joseph in prison.  It was necessary for us to be in The Assembly, for a time.

Brent

re:  Calvinism vs. Armenianism

It is interesting how the Lord is using different things to teach Greg and I upon leaving the Assembly.  For purposes of writing this, I will only refer to what God is teaching me, in order not to misrepresent my husband.  In reading the testimony from Steve Irons as to why his family left the assembly, it was interesting to see Lee’s (Steve’s son) struggle with being a Calvinist and remaining in the Assembly (I don’t know if I am representing this correctly, please use grace in reading my interpretation of Steve’s letter.)

My husband and I read Steve’s letter the same weekend that the church where we have begun attending (for any Assembly members lurking out there, it is Shepherd’s Community Church-a great blessing and not at all a worldly church) was discussing in the bible study group Calvinism vs. Armenianism (spelling??)  If I understand it correctly (someone correct me if I am wrong), the Armenian position is that a believer has “absolute free will” in coming to salvation.  This is what the Assembly members are taught.  The Calvinist believes that God chooses those who are to be saved.  Some are appointed to salvation and others are appointed to damnation.  This is a difficult position to grapple with when you want to reach out to others with the gospel and you believe in a loving God who you can’t fathom would “choose some to damnation.”  Rather, I find the Calvinist position to be refreshing and liberating!  As the bible study leader continually would say to us, “let’s look at what the bible says.”  We actually had a dialogue in this bible study!  Encouraged to raise questions, issues, difficulties, etc. (in fact we were encouraged to do so.)  Not like the Assembly, where questioning a doctrinal teaching was tantamount to rebellion!  So….what did our study of the word produce?  Eph 1:4, “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love.”;  1Pet 1:2, “Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father…”;  Rom 9:11, “(For the children being not born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;); (read vs. 12-14 as well) but for brevity continue in verse 15, “For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.”; (a verse we all know so well) Eph 2:8-9, “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”; and finally (though not an exhaustive study) John 6:44, “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.”

I have rambled….but for a purpose!  Why was this liberating?  Because through all these verses, I clearly saw how my salvation had nothing to do with me!  Not even my “free will” to choose to come to God!  God has done it all!  And if it is all God’s doing, than there is liberty to walk with him.  There is not a constant, nagging doubt and fear as to how I am measuring up to God.  And certainly because there is no direct “At a girl!” from God, I am continually questioning my standing with God.  Not with the Calvinist position.  Now, I am free to serve God, knowing that whatever I do for God is his doing anyway!  This completely removes all boasting!  Now I don’t measure myself against others either, trying to determine where in the kingdom I fall (always somewhere near the bottom as I never could measure up, as I had a child out of wedlock and was continually reminded of my sin through the dealings with my daughter!)

The thing is, whether you hold to a Calvinist position or an Armenian position doesn’t matter!  God is the only one who knows!  But as Steve’s letter pointed out, in the Assembly we weren’t allowed (and still aren’t) to hold our own doctrinal position based on faith and the reading of the word of God.  And this is what produces beaten down, depressed, oppressed, wounded Christians in the Assembly.  How tragic!

I should wrap this up!  I told you I would be sounding in with my points of view.  I will have much more to say, as time permits.  (BRENT-I DID GO TO THE BOOKSTORE JUST YESTERDAY TO TRY AND FIND SOME BOOKS AND COULDN’T REMEMBER WHAT YOU HAD SUGGESTED.  THEY DIDN’T HAVE ENROTH’S BOOKS AND IN FACT, IT COULDN’T EVEN BE ORDERED.  I WILL LOOK FOR THE BOOK YOU SUGGESTED HERE.  THANKS!)

Hi Kim

For almost a year after we left, we only wanted to hear about the love of God, and the Grace of God, the only thing that could quench our spiritual thirst. In my opinion, no one preaches these two topics better than a reformed (Calvinist) preacher.  During the reformation, God recovered the key doctrine of Justification by Grace, through faith alone, and the ones he used to bring the message were the reformers.  Among these, Luther and Calvin were the giants in this era.

Arminianism is not named after the country, Armenia, but after a person, Arminias. Arminias taught, in addition to free will, that a person could lose their salvation. This is the main objection to Arminianism.

Calvin taught that God predestined some for wrath, and that Christ didn't die for everyone, but only the elect. This is know as Limited Atonement.  I have a problem with that as well.

There is an age old debate going on to this day regarding these two views.  One thing that hooked me into the Assembly, was the way George seemingly sewed the two together, with Justification by faith, but Sanctification through works and obedience.

However, I now believe that we are saved, entirely, by Grace through faith, not of ourselves. Otherwise, we would be able to boast.  I also believe that we have free will, although it doesn't negate God's sovereignty. The fact that we might do things that honor God is evidence of salvation, not a means of earning it.

The reformed Gospel put exactly this joy and freedom into me, in much the same way that you describe.

I consider myself a 3.5 point Calvinist, as opposed to the full 5 points.  Frankly, I don't understand it all  :), so when I see the passages that talk about God's soverignty, I rejoice in them, and when I see the places that talk about man's responsibility, I prayerfull consider them, and rejoice in doing it.  The one thing that both camps agree about is that we are Accepted in the Beloved.

Although I am not trying to plug Calvary Chapel, Chuck Smith does have a great booklet on Calvinism vs. Arminianism.  Many theologians might consider it a lightweight approach, which it probably is.  but on the other hand, Paul talked about the simplicity that is in Christ.  I love the booklet. I think it is on the web somewhere.

Anyhow, I highly recommend that you delve into the different views on free will/election, etc.  

Isn't it shocking how little we really know, when at one time we thought we were so smart?

Brent

Hello Kim

I was motivated by what you had to say in your post about us gals not contributing.  I have something on my heart to share, but understand that I am so busy schleping kids around that I just haven't had time.  Maybe thats why all these men have so much time to post!  ;D

No, seriously, I am going to write something later, but soon. I have a lot to say, as do many of the other women who read on this board.

Suzie

Hi All,
 Kim, I know exactly what you mean when you talk about the discovery of election vs. a realtionship by merit.  The church I attend is Reformed and can they preach the gospel!
  GG used to quote all the old godly Puritans like Owen and made it seem that they supported his views of holiness.  It was Lee Iron's reading and discovery of the context of what these writers' had to say that showed him GG was a false teacher.  All these holy men who so desired to live a holy life were Reformed theologians.  GG taught that to except Evangelical teaching on salvation/Christian living would lead to a shallow life.  The name "Puritan" was not a name these people took to themselves but one that was assigned them by those that observed their lives.  Their lives displayed that to really understand salvation by grace leads to a holy life.  GG wanted to "get beyond" justification and on to sanctification, but to really understand justification leads to the joy of sanctification!
  Also, Kim, I have an extra copy of "Recovering from Churches that Abuse" by Enroth if you still can't find it.  E-mail me your address and I will mail it out to you.
   Great thought Greg on the Word of God.  That will be my next topic under "communion" and I look forward to your comments on same.
   Suzie,  with five kids I wonder that you have time to sleep.  Of course in the Assembly such a burden would have been a nightmare.  The only advantage to having kids in the Assembly was when one of them were sick (and at least one always is) you got to stay home.
                                          God Bless,  Mark

Hi All,
  I was hoping that some Assembly "guests" might pop in and argue against some of the points' that I and others have made here.  Maybe I will sign up as a "guest" and try to represent your position? Anyway, I will continue with my thought's on communion and the Assembly.
  Greg has done a great job of illustrating the two different results of reading the Word: Before and After.  I'd like to explore GG's teaching and how it effects our inner life.
  GG believes that the only way to understand the Bible is to read it as a devotion (He did not like the phrase,"Bible Study" as he declared this was not what he was doing).      
 GG had us approach the Word via our hearts(after preparing our hearts via disciplines that purify same) and wait for God to "speak to us" through the verses read.  The same verses may say something completely different one day from the next as communion with God means "hearing God's voice" through the text.  It makes no difference to GG what the verses meant when first given, or what the context may be as "spiritual" minds receive God's living message.
 As I've mentioned before, GG feels free to change the words themselves if it continues the flow of his "vision".  Of course, if you come to chapter summary and share something that is contrary to GG's vision guess who has God's mind and who doesn't?(I've really seen him chew out some poor "Saint" who was only sharing what "God spoke to him".)
  GG taught that the natural man only had 2 ways to receive insight and that was philosophical and empirical (human wisdom and physical evidence). God's way, he taught, was via revelation. He taught even Christians who have the Holy Spirit need to learn this higher way of insight so that they would not be "dead Fundamentalists" or "lunatic Protestants"(the previous designations, it just so happens, cover all evangelical Christians).
  I will continue this thought in a later post.  Comments?
                                         God Bless,  Mark

Hello Everyone

It seems to me, that if God didn't want us using our intellects, He would not have authored the Bible.  In order to learn about Him, we must be able to:

[read][make comparisons to historical events][reason][/list]

If we neglect this, and go solely by "revelation," there is nothing to stop us from barking or claiming to have been abducted by aliens!

Brent

Hi Everyone,

<<Of course, if you come to chapter summary and share something that is contrary to GG's vision guess who has God's mind and who doesn't?(I've really seen him chew out some poor "Saint" who was only sharing what "God spoke to him".)>>

I don't know if this belongs in this section, but it reminds me of how GG and BG were never "in the flesh" at least not around any of the saints I knew.  The poor saints were the ones lacking vision and in the natural man.  It's funny that I never picked up on that in 18 years.

The Lord bless you,

Eric

Hi Greg and Others (good to talk to you on the phone Greg)
  I will be out of town and away from the computer this week and so will continue my thought re. communion and how the Assembly was off before I go.  Since this area is about grace, as well as truth, I would also like to share my opinion on what biblical communion is (and since it's Sunday).
   We were talking about hearing God's voice and knowing him via his Word.  GG made access a merit system that required manipulating the inner life to come to a state of higher consciousness ( A little Eastern Mysticism anyone?).  However,  GG's "vision" held the trump card over any other understanding of the Word.  This makes GG's brand of "devotional reading" particularly dangerous and open to manipulation of members by the Leadership.
   I would like to suggest a book recommended to me by Dave Sable when I first left: "How to read the Bible for all it's worth", by Gordon Fee and Douglas Stuart (Greg I'm mailing the book to you with the others).  In the book you learn that one must learn first how to study the Bible and to allow one's study to direct devotional meditation.  The Bible itself teaches us that "no scripture is of private interpretation" (in other words must be in context ).
  What context? The greatest revelation of scripture is Jesus Christ and him crucified= the gospel of the grace of God.  The Bible talks of communion as a remembering of what happened at Calvary; Why?  This is where we experience the blessing of the Holy Spirit ministering to our hearts and are filled with love, peace, hope, and joy! How?by trusting in the fact of Jesus work.  There is no inner soul searhcing here or self purfication effort ; just the realization of the fact of sharing in eternal life with God!  As we look away to Jesus the washing and renewing of the Holy Spirit does it's work.
   What if I'm very conscious of my sins and failures; is this a stumbling block?  Contrary to GG, Jesus promises to never abandon us and "those whom he justifies he will also glorify."  His grace is for all his children and is freely given.
   I know, dear Assembly friend, that you would say you experience the above communion experience every Sunday in worship and I did as well when with you.  I clung to the hope of the Cross then, as I do now; what's the difference?  My Assembly hope was a fleeting experience that was quickly lost as the feeling faded and my focus was directed to things of this life.  That experience then led to an attempt to renew that consciousness via supressing the "natural" man which led to failure, which led to guilt, and then to depression (this is a manic depression:highs and lows).
   In true communion there is no need for hypocrisy by putting on an outward show of righteousness.  We have freedom to be just what we are--  sinners saved by grace.
A common question from present Assemblyites to those who have left is, "Are you walking with the Lord?"  (Which means living an Assembly pretentious lifestyle.)  My answer is: He walks with me and talks with me and tells me I'm his own.  A Christian life that is gift based, vs. merit based, leads to a balanced "walk".  What is your life actually like my Assembly friend?  Blessing or curse?  If you're being robbed of your liberty in Christ you are missing out on what it really means to "walk" with the Lord.  God Bless,  Mark  

Hi Greg,
  Yes, fortunately I have forgotten many of the past rules, but thanks for the reminder.  I will make sure and call next time, but who should I seek permission from?  Do you think they would talk with me on the phone?  I can just imagine the conversation:
  "Brother, where have you been for the last 11 years?", says the leading Bro.
  Answer from me,"I've been out telling everyone how off base you guys are."
 Leading Bro. answers, "Lying, serving the Devil, and generally commiting great evil, huh?"
  I answer, "Yes, but I wanted to let you know why I couldn't attend the meetings for the last 11 years."
  Leading Bro., "Okay, as long as you let us know when you can't make it out to the meetings."
  I answer, "Then I better let you know I won't be out for the next 11 years as well because I'm going to be too busy with letting eveyone know what goes on over here." :)

   I notice that I've missed a lot of great discussion while I've been gone.  It is great to see so many getting involved in discussion.  I guess I shouldn't mention that it was good to talk to you again today on the phone, but since I'm breaking so many rules I might just as well go ahead and say it.             God Bless,  Mark

Hi All Assembly Lurkers,
  I'm would like to issue a special invitation to all Assembly Lurker friends to read this post and also to respond.  I know we tend to mix humor in with our discussion, as it is a means of dealing with our past presence in your midst.  I want you to know that I, and I'm sure many others here, are sincerely concerned with your well being and are not mocking you.  We are kind of laughing at ourselves as we were a part of the same ship that we would like to see righted.  
  The Scripture encourages asking questions re. the truth and never suggests that the enemy will use truth to bring down his Testimony.  Please check out the articles at this site and ask yourself if there is not a legitimate reason to question the Leadership and their behavior.  The longer you hide from the issues here the harder it will be to face them later on.
   This brings me to me concern for those in leadership.  You have been faithful to a ministry, but have you been faithful to God?  Honestly, what is your inner life, marriage, and family situation like?  Do you have issues buried deep within that are secret to all around you?  These issues are a time bomb ready to explode; you can not hide them forever and they will surely destroy you and your family!  How can I be so certain these buried issues will eventually burn you?  The above scenario is the life of the pharisee and is described by Jesus in very strong language(MT.23).
  I will talk about this some more in future posts and would invite you to discuss this with me.  I hope that you would find deliverance as you are responsible for many Little One's that desperately need help.  You have the truth of the Gospel, but block entrance to those who accept your conditional message of relationship with God.
                                     God Bless,  Mark

Our experience upon leaving the Assembly and reading Mathew 23 was eye opening.  Particularly verses 13-15 (go ahead and read them, in fact read the whole chapter, but for this purpose let’s concentrate on verse 15), “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.”  The Assembly is so intent on indoctrinating everybody to the “Assembly” way and once they have, you begin doing to same thing to others.  The way we treated one another in the Assembly was anything but Christian.  Now that we have left, it is so refreshing to see that we don’t have to be the judge of everyone’s life.  The Lord is the judge.  It is my responsibility to love.  Isn’t that what Jesus said the first and second greatest commandment was?  This is what we are supposed to do in “fulfilling the law”.  Not following all of the Assembly’s rules, regulations, commandments, etc. in order to “inherit” and then of course making sure everyone else around us is toeing the line as well.

Hi Greg,  

I really enjoyed your last post regarding the unpardonable sin......a Christmas tree.

Our kids had become very judgemental towards other dear Christians, because they had trees.  They would say things like, "How can they be Christians since they have a tree?"  We didn't teach them this, but they applied our Assembly stand on Christmas like this on their own.  

I always had to explain how they were still Christians, even though they had a tree, and how it was pagan for us, and in the Bible, but was OK for their AWANA leader!  Kinda confusing, huh?

Last year, our second post-Assembly Christmas, I had a deep conviction that we should have a tree, for the simple reason that we needed to deliver the kids from that Pharisaic spirit.  It was kinda funny, because at first Brent didn't agree.  I was going to get an artificial tree at Costco, but in the end Brent said, "If we're gonna have a tree, it should at least smell good!"  So we got a very nice smelling tree and had our first Christmas as a family.  We kept it simple and low and behold, no one bowed down or sacrificed to the tree. ;D

This year, we don't feel a need for a tree...because we are going skiing for 10 days.  They have trees-a-plenty on the ski slopes.  8)

Instead of a tree, we now have a beautiful manger scene, although I am keeping the wise men way to the east of the manger, to keep it scriptural.  ::).....

Suzie Tr0ckman

Hi Suzie and everyone,

Good to see your post.  Uhm...just a question, you're not going to ski during the Winter Seminar, are you?  ;D

It's amazing that I can go about my daily life including vacations, Christmas, etc. and not feel guilty!  It's great to have liberty once again!  I have been set FREE!

I just had to get that out!

The Lord Bless you,

Eric

Hi Everyone,

Something I heard in ministry today.  "It is impossible to be in relationships and in control at the same time.  Either the control will destroy the relationship or the relationship will prevail over the control."

Did anyone notice:  GG has no personal friends to confide in.

I also met a family today that came out of cult.  It's interesting that this group also followed the New Testament pattern (they also had little growth).  Head coverings, all day for the Lord, stewardships, one guy on top that is unapproachable, everything is identical.  Except they do have a different guy on top.  ;D

Oh...and one more thing, their view of the assembly...it's a counterfeit of their true church.   ;)  Some things never change with these groups.

The Lord Bless You,

Eric

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Editor

Hi Everyone,
  Ah, dancing around the Christmas Tree and singing "Oh Christmas Tree" while drinking egg nogg and generally having a good time!  Shame on us all! ;)
  I was going to continue my thought on Pharisee's and the Assembly from Mt. 23; the consideration has a lot of truth to it, but not much grace and as such I think I'll save it for a later time.  I'm just feeling too good today! (no, the eggnogg is not alcholic ;D)
                                             God Bless,  Mark

Hi Everyone,

I Corinthians 15:10-11  "But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me.  Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed."

I've been struck lately concerning the grace of God.  You know...it's the grace of God!  In the assembly the laboring "even more than all of them" was stressed but grace was left out.  What we saw was a mindset that "other churches preach only a half-gospel."  The laboring of the saints was stressed in the context of bringing glory to God (but really the assembly).

What I've been seeing in the Word of God is that God wants to work His grace through me.  It is not based on my works but on my obedience to His Word.  And it doesn't matter through which church the gospel is sent forth or through which person.  What matters is that the gospel gets out, that people believe!  This is so contrary to the law and works that we heard in the minstry.

Hi Everyone,

I came across something very interesting.  I did a search on "Geftakys" to see if the website showed up on a search engine.  It did and so did another website!  MINDSPRING.COM!

After reading their "statement of faith", I found out that George Geftaky's is quoted in there.  Specifically, "Royal Overcomers".  It seems they believe pretty much the same stuff.  So, maybe here's another instance that the "vision" is not all his own.

Eric

Hi Eric

I think I have seen that one too, and the author qoutes from George's book and then says, "Not an endorsement."  He seemed to like a certain quote.  

Not every sentence in GG's books, or speech is bad, some of it is quite good and Biblical.  The problem is the leaven, and the sin. There was plenty of good things there, that's what we need to sort out.

I love the way Rachel puts it in her most recent article,

It's Not About God!

Once we realize that the Assembly wasn't about God, but about the Assembly, we can take whatever was good and true, and start afresh in our relationship with Jesus.  That is what is so excellent about this website.

Yes, it is painful to find out that we have been duped by a fraud, but hopefully, we can keep the many good things we learned and with His grace, something beautiful and useful can come about.

For me, it has all been worth it.

Brent

Hello Everyone

I just finished reading Rachel's story, on the main website.  Even though I had read the first part of it nearly two years ago, I had not read it recently.  With the addition of the 3HO comparison, it is one of the most powerful things I have ever read.  (Perhaps because I was there, and remember so much of this.  I also regret so much of it, especially the part where I act like an Assembly coward and fire her from her job!)

If you haven't read this, YOU NEED TO!  RIGHT NOW!

I advise any current Assembly members who are lurking about to read this, and then ask questions.  I have already done so, and have been told,  "We didn't know,"  "David is no longer a worker," "He has repented," "All of this may never have happened,"  and my favorite, "There are no witnesses."  PUHLEEEZE!  >:(

One of the saddest things I have had to endure lately, is a saint, who thinks they are so spiritual, brave and ethical, with nobility seeking the truth, firmly state that they are going to "investigate!"


Who then do they talk to for their "investigation?"  The same leaders who have been lying about all of this.  It's kind of like going Marlin fishing in a swimming pool.  You can have the chair, the tackle, the beer and the Mexican boat driver, but you won't get any marlin.

So, all  you "investigators,"  Why not try asking the people who were involved, instead of just accepting what the men committed to covering up have to say?

The truth is very painful in this case, but not nearly so excruciating as having to forceably sear your concsience to ignore what you  know to be true.  There are two choices, a long, but FREE road to healing...or a certain dark, stagnant, joyless existence.  On the former path, you have God's grace, in the latter, you have the leadership's appreciation.  

Prov 18:17  The first [one] to  plead  his cause [seems] right,  Until his  neighbor  comes and examines him.

Get the other side of the story, it's the godly thing to do.

OK, I'm climbing down off my soapbox

Brent

Hi All,
  I absolutely agree with you Brent!
   Rachel, you are to be commended for your great courage in sharing such a difficult and painful story.
    If you can read Rachel's story and have any other response then a clear turning away from the sinful system that is the Geftakys Assembly your heart must be sin hardened indeed!!  You should first weep and next become very angry at the web of lies that is the Assembly!
  This site has told many sad stories, but none so clearly declares the Assembly errors as Rachel's.  We have gone on and on trying to persuade those still in the Assembly to consider the teaching of scripture, to examine the Assembly practices, to see the fruit of Assembly abuses here at this site, but Rachel's story makes all of the above more than crystal clear!
   It is time to repent!  This section is called Truth and Grace, but there can be no grace without a facing of the truth.  If there is any Assembly member out there who now knows these things and thinks you can excuse or ignore them you are dishonoring the Lord!
   Am I angry?  Yes!  Do I believe the Lord is angry?  Yes!!!
                               God bless the truly repentant,  Mark

Greetings to all:
 
Once a current assembly member and I were discussing the Assembly. I mentioned some issues, both general and specific, that he couldn't readily refute. In what was to him, at least, an argumentative trump card, he stated that "it hasn't been proven in a court of law." Through this he exempted himself  from the responsibility of critically  thinking and the attendant responsibility-action. Logically speaking, very few things in life NEED(or adapt themselves)to being proven in a court of law. For example, if I see someone steal(lie, cheat), catching them in the act, I now know that this person in all  probability cannot be trusted-they are guilty of theft(lying, cheating). I now have sufficient reason to base an attitude of mistrust and disapproval. It is not for me personally to sentence them, that would be the realm of the courts; but they will suffer the consequences in terms of loss of my trust, friendship, and loyalty. If circumstances warrant I would warn others about them, too. It would be a matter of conscienceto do so, otherwise it would be complicity. Wouldn't we warn a friend not to trust someone(and why not to)that we know to be a thief(liar, cheater) if they were about to enter into a financial dealing, et cetera with this rascal? I trust that we would. Especially if we have observed a pattern of criminal conduct. This friend clearly has a NEED TO KNOW. Gossip, especially the malicious kind, is revealing -even though it may be true- others personal information to those who don't have a need or even the right to know. Gossipers typically do this either to build themselves up at the expense of others, or to discredit the subject of the gossip-or both. Friends, and people of backbone and character reveal things in order to protect the innocent.
   Now, I'm sure that anyone can plug the assembly  into the correct "sockets" in the scenario developed above. Some of the conduct in the assembly-especially in the hierarchy of leadership-has been criminal. Some of their conduct "merely" grossly irresponsible and destructive.There has been spiritual, psycho-emotional, and physical abuse. Present assembly members have already seen enough to make an informed judgement and appropriate response. I will let the reader make his personal application here. Will you continue to support these things through your participation? Will you even invite others thus exposing them to harm? Will you be an accomplice through doing or questioning nothing?
Ask yourselves who is my neighbor and then go and do the right thing.
Respectfully,
Sebastian Andrew

Hi Everyone,
  Very well said Sebastian :) .  Logic does not break through to the Assembly member who is entrapped.  Mind control has been the phrase that is often used to describe those inside groups like the Assembly but I wonder if that is a proper description.  It seems more like emotional control and that it has little to do with logic.  Arguments, Biblical or otherwise, are only used to defend the Assembly members emotional "safe place" inside the group.  Assembly members needs are met by the group and by attacking their group one is attacking their source of emotional nourishment.  Some of the Leaders look to GG and Betty as their parents and through loyalty to them are looking for a loving parent.  Some of these same leaders needs are met by the respect they receive from the other members (there are other emotional entrapment scenarios as well).  
   We all have these emotional needs but in the Assembly  (or a cult) we enter when we are especially vulnerable and are literally bombed with love and acceptance from members.  When we start to question the group that love and acceptance is withdrawn and we begin to see how fickle the group's affection for us is.  
   To be spiritually healthy, as well as emotionally healthy, we must have our emotional life centered on an individual life with God first.  This is accomplished via God's unconditional acceptance of us.  Of course we also need human relationships, but God has designed family life to meet these needs and not the church as a substitute family.  When the church usurps God and the family's place the emotional life is turned upside down and we become dependent on the group.  
   When we question the Assembly teachings to a member who is so emotionally entrenched in the group they will say or do anything to protect their emotional well being.  This they would do not knowing that their spiritual and emotional well being would improve if they were to begin to critically think re. their involvement.
   There are wake up calls that God brings our way and we need to heed the truth and not our own comfort.  It is not easy to face these things but the sooner a member does so the easier it will be to recover and to find a healthy Christian life.
                              God Bless,  Mark

An encouraging thought was just shared with me and I'd like to share it with you all.  A preacher was talking about the statue in Nebuchadnezzar's dream which Daniel explained.  That statue was destroyed by the stone cut out by no human hand.  
What we have seen in the assembly has happened in other times and places before, but we know that no "kingdom" of man will stand--in fact there will not even be a trace left, but the kingdom of the Lord Jesus will stand forever.




Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth....
And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Sebastian you hit a number of nails on the head  :D but Mark's statement that "Logic does not break through to the Assembly member who is entrapped" is all too true.  The statement reminds me of when I worked for a Mormon lawyer a few years back :-\.  This man, like many people in the Lodge, has very deep roots in the Mormon Church.  His entire family is Mormon, his wife's entire family is Mormon, all of his friends are Mormon, most of his employees are Mormon, etc.   :P

One day we were talking about the Bible and I came to find out that this man was indeed very knowledgeable about the Old and New Testament along with the additional books that the Mormons tack onto the Bible.  We came to discuss being saved by grace.  We went round and round trying to out-do each other with the knowledge that we had obtained and finally it came down to one point.  I said to him, "You know the truth and you have taught the truth, yet you stay (in the Mormon Church), why?"  He looked me dead in the eye and said something to the effect of "Rachel, I can't.  You don't understand  -  I can't."  :'(  :'(

Later I discussed the conversation with my brother-in-law (he had become friends with my boss before I was hired).  I asked him why my boss wouldn't leave and my brother-in-law proceeded to have me take a step back and look at the situation.  Here my boss was - a somewhat leader in the church with a wife and 5 kids.  My boss's entire world revolved around the Mormon Church.  If he were to walk away he would perhaps loose his family, his employees, his friends, and quite possibly his law practice (due to the number of clients he received from the church).  Here my boss was - a logical thinker by all means yet even logic could not permeate the hold the Mormon Church had on him.

Many in the assembly may very well be in the same situation; they see the truth but remain paralyzed, unable to flip the switch in their subconscious that would allow them to be free and all the while their entire group of friends, leaders, and family continue to divert their attention away from the switch.  

Some of the people on this BB have been granted the GRACE to flip that switch but there is a flood of pain that came with the TRUTH that set them free.  They may have left family, friends they have had almost a lifetime, and leaders that they thought really loved and cared for them.  For all of you on this BB that have felt that pain I truly sympathize with you.

My sister told me just the other day: "There's always going to be people that hurt you, so what you have to do is keep on trusting and just be more careful about who you trust next time around."  That may sound like the most outlandish statement in the world but there is hope.  Our hope is in God, not in man.  He can help us to trust and live again.  He is the only one we can place ALL trust in and through Him we can learn to be more careful.  Some may say that is easier said than done, true but the Lord's not finished with us yet.  We're still here living out our days and until He decides we are done we can choose either to trust in Him or forsake Him.

My whole Lodge experience doesn't quite make sense to me and the more stories I read on this BB the more I don't understand, but I still am going to choose HIM because I don't see that there is any other way to make it through this life.

Mrs. Arthur:  You have poignantly stated what many are grappling with in making the decision to come out as well, what we grapple with who have since left.

One verse which I laid hold of early in my christian walk (even in my lodge days) has been a great help, "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." Rom 8:28  I am not bitter about my lodge days (15 years of them.)  God had a purpose for it all.  I can't see what the future holds or why God allowed the situation, but my hope is in God, not in my situation.  2Cor 1 comes to mind where it talks about God using our suffering and the comfort we receive from Christ in order to comfort others.  My prayer is that God is able to use all of us who have come out and been delivered from that wicked place to minister to others and I believe this BB has been one such vehicle in order to facillitate this.

Thank you for your contribution to the BB.  Keep posting.

Hi Everyone,
  This is a wonderful and very insightful conversation.  The Biblical story I think fits well with this topic is the one about Joseph and his Brethren.  It actually fits better in the thread re. Wounded Pilgrims as Joe. is an example of same.
  The story follows an interesting parallel to those mistreated in the Assembly.  Not only does God bless Joe. in the end he brings the sinful Brethren to repentance.
  "And as for you, you meant evil aginst me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many peopoe alive--- So he comforted them and spoke kindly to them" Gen. 50:20-21.
   The key to the repentance of the Brethren and restoration of fellowship with Joe. was the leadership of Judah in the whole matter.
   If you read the story we find Joe. playing this "game" with his Brethren as he tries to bring them to a true turning of heart.  I believe just such a "game" is now being played out in the heart's of those considering how to deal with the present crisis in Fullerton.  
   A very intersting part of this Joe. story is the chapter that is inserted in the middle of it that seems out of place and that is the one re. Judah's sin, hypocrisy, exposure, confession, and repentance-(Gen.38).  This event prepared Judah for a full repentance of even deeper evil and his ability to take the lead for his other weak brethren.
    I don't think it is stretching things to see an analogy here.  Apparently the Dave G. event has awakened several Judah's to their own hypocrisy and sin in the Assembly.  Their view is still very limited and they don't see the great abuses and damages inherent in the Assembly system.  They still need to understand that they have sold many of their Brethren into slavery; how does God bring the further deeper repentance for these acts?
   I believe these Bros. who have not silenced their conscience will find that it becomes the silver cup in the bag of grain! (Am I getting too mystical yet?)  In other words, once the conscience is awakened by the Holy Spirit we can not depart from the truth as the Spirit will continue to "police" us and won't let us go.  Wasn't that the way it worked with most of us?  Over the years our conscience would be pricked and as we responded to it the truth became clearer to see.  
   Some in the Assembly have not come to the place of Judah yet and are still hiding their hypocrital life style; dishonest with self as well as with God.  Yet, there seem to be some Judah's emerging and possibly this website plays a part as well in the Spirit's work.  Joseph is clearly a type of Our Great Wounded Pilgrim, Jesus Christ, and we as little wounded pilgrims maybe are the servants in Joe's house. (Alright, maybe I'm getting a little carried away with this analogy, but I think there are some interesting parallel's and they bring me some encouragement for what God can do through this whole situation.  I will refrain from designating an analogy as to who the asses bearing the grain represent ;))
                   God Bless those that hope in God,  Mark C.

You know, Mark, I was going to respond and say that when being mistreated by my brethren, it sure didn't seem that I was doing anything so noble as Joseph, so that was hardly comforting.  But then I thought, hey wait a minute.  Joseph didn't know that it would turn out for good until years later.  When he was in the dungeon, how easy it could have been to give up and say there is no hope.  So, perhaps in due time we will all see how this will all be used for good as it was for Joseph.  Wow, that would be great!

"as it was for Joseph"

I agree!!!

It would be great.  and you know what, I believe it can happen.
If only we had spiritual eys to see :o

I got a taste of heaven today, and I think we will be in wonder at His goodness saying, "of a truth, God has done this."

Corey

I was doing a study this weekend on the grace of God, and it was very encouraging and liberating.

I need to admit here at the beginning of this post two things.  First, I have not followed all of the thoughts of this thread completely, so please forgive me if this comes out of left field, but the title caught my eye.  Second, and more importantly, I am terribly aware of how much more I need to learn about God's grace.  But, here it goes.

I came across this definition of grace in the Online Bible program - "the merciful kindness by which God, exerting His Holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues."  This really blessed me (and made me think about Ti. 2:11-12).  It took the idea of grace from being just some theological concept to one of God's ACTIVITY in my life.  It isn't just a dispostion or attitude God has, but rather it is His going out to me, actively, to change me and conform me to the image of Christ.  And, man do I see that I don't deserve that, nor have I done anything to prompt it.  It is initiated in the heart of God Himself.  That really gave new meaning to me to Ro. 6:14 - we are no longer under a standard that demands but cannot supply, but are rather now living under God's influence upon our souls.

The other thing this impressed upon me was that we are to be ministers of the manifold grace of God (1Pe. 4).  This does not mean that we are to exert our influence upon others souls (setting up our own standards and expectations of what someone should or shouldn't do or be), but rather to be a vehicle for Him to exert His influence upon their souls.

As I stated before, I know I still have a lot to learn, but this was an exciting beginning for me.  And, I am interested in what any of you may think about what I am saying - offering any corrections, or additional thoughts.

Joe

Hi Joe,
I have been reading books by Philip Yancey.  If you have never read anything by him I would recommend his writings to you. His book "What I Never Knew About Grace" is very encouraging. I read it about 4 years ago and it helped me very much. I recently finished his book "Soul Survivor", which has been especially helpful also. I enjoy his thoughtful insights about the Christian life.
Love to Andrea. :)
Pat

Pat,

Thank you for the reading suggestions.  And, please say hello to Wayne for me.  I have really been praying for your family.  Wayne has been a real example and encouragement to me over the years - his tender heart and love for Christ.

Joe

To teach and to learn are the same root word in Hebrew.  Teachers are responsible because they control the subject, the style, the setting, and the speaker.  Truth sets people free, but truth MUST be taught to set people free.
Teachers will stand accountable to God for their influence.  (James 3:1;  Hebrews 13:17)  Teachers impact more by their character and commitment than their communication.
Bruce Wilkinson
The leaders/ elders  are the teachers in the assemblies.  According to the Word of God  they shall receive a stricter judgement, and will have to give an account.  

Hi Joe,
  My thought's re. your consideration is a resounding Amen!  The definition of grace that you discussed was wonderfully encouraging for just the reason that you mentioned: Grace is the activity of God in our souls!
  The Assembly understanding of grace was basically, "God helps those that help themselves."  Under GG we had to actualize grace through a redefintion of the Biblical concept of faith.  GG taught that faith, after initial salvation, changed from "hearing and recieving" to striving and struggling.  If we demonstrated the above actions God would reward us with his Spirit of grace.
   How wonderful to know that God's grace is so available and powerful in every believer; how wonderful to know God's confidence in His ability to complete in us what He has begun.
   Thank you so much for your thought!  God Bless,  Mark C.

Dear Greg,
   I just can't really picture you as an out of control anything! ;D
   Yes, that verse is in the Bible and does indeed reside in the hidden book of Hezikiah.  Now, you may laugh at that but just as man was created on the 7th day so there are other scriptures hidden in the text we can find if we have the proper lens to view the truth. ;) ;) ;)
    Speaking of that, Bob says he never heard GG teach the 7th day creation theorem.
                                           God Bless,  Mark

He mentioned it in one of the lectures during this last Teen Team.  This was the morning i tried to see how much espresso shots i could take (i stopped at 9) so i was not really in shape to think about it than, but a couple people asked me what i thought about it the next day.

George did preach about the 7th day here in Champaign.

  Thank you Pat and Luke for confirming what I thought other's had said here.  I was talking with a present Assem. member and since he had never personally heard the teaching was doubting whether GG had actually said it.  When I first heard that GG was teaching this I thought it was some kind of a joke.  Apparently GG is getting worse, not better, in his unique Bible study method.
                   God Bless,  Mark C.

Hi Mark,


That's probably because Bob has been too distracted to listen to George anyway.  Remember we were only supposed to get one thought out of a 2 hour seminar lecture.  (I would flunk any school with that type of assimilation.  ;))

George taught this at the Winter Seminar 2002, Spring Seminar 2002, and I heard the Fall Seminar 2002.  Someone correct me if I'm wrong.  Bob was usually at the door or doing some dork-eeper function so he might have missed it.

A former dork-eeper,

Eric

Thanks Eric,
  Watch the BB activity fall dramatically for the next couple of hours.  We will also discover who has TV's and who does not.  I, of course, do not have reception as I am more spiritual then most (please keep me updated on the score though ;)).
                    God Bless,   Mark C.

  PS-- The score re. today's meeting in Fullerton is more interesting. (Does anyone have that score?)

Since noone else has responded to you Mark, re: the score today (from the football game-I don't know re: Fullerton), the score:

Raiders 3

Bucs  34

I am watching the tv as I type on my laptop (ahhhhh - technology ;D)

Thanks Kimberley :)
  What of the score re. the Fullerton meeting from today?
                                         God bless,  Mark

Is that in First or Second Hezekiah. ;D I still can't find it, and I thought that I knew the scriptures from Generations to Revolutions. ;D Maybe I need one of GG's Bibles.

 :)JUNE 25: 4:12 AM

FROM THE BOOK: THE TALE OF THE TARDY OXCART

Subject: Grace:

Humpty Dumpty had an unsolvable problem.
We have a problem too, but ours has a solution.

Jesus Christ came to our wall,
Jesus Christ died for our fall;
So that regardless of death and in spite of sin,
Through grace, He might put us together again.


Subject: Truth:

The best way to show that a stick is crooked is not to argue about it or to spend time denouncing it,
but to lay a straight stick alongside it.

Wow what a story!!  I received this today from a dear sister in the Lord.

A young and successful executive was traveling down a neighbourhood street, going a bit too fast in his new Jaguar. He was watching for kids darting out from between parked cars and slowed down when he thought he saw something.

As his car passed, no children appeared. Instead, a brick smashed into the Jag's side door!

He slammed on the brakes and backed the Jag back to the spot where the brick had been thrown.

The angry driver then jumped out of the car, grabbed the nearest kid and pushed him up against a parked car shouting, "What was that all about and who are you?
Just what the heck are you doing? That's a new car and that brick you threw is going to cost a lot of money. Why did you do it?"

The young boy was apologetic. "Please, mister...please, I'm sorry but I didn't know what else to do," He pleaded. "I threw the brick because no one else would stop..." With tears dripping down his face and off his chin, the youth pointed to a spot just around a parked car.

It's my brother," he said. "He rolled off the curb and fell out of his wheelchair and I can't lift him up."

Now sobbing, the boy asked the stunned executive, "Would you please help me get him back into his wheelchair? He's hurt and he's too heavy for me." Moved beyond words, the driver tried to swallow the rapidly swelling lump in his throat.

He hurriedly lifted the handicapped boy back into the wheelchair, then took out a linen handkerchief and dabbed at the fresh scrapes and cuts.  A quick look told him everything was going to be okay..

"Thank you and may God bless you," the grateful child told the stranger. Too shook up for words, the man simply watched the boy push his wheelchair-bound brother down the sidewalk toward their home.

It was a long, slow walk back to the Jaguar. The damage was very noticeable, but the driver never bothered to repair the dented side door. He kept the dent there to remind him of this message: "Don't go through life so fast that someone has to throw a  brick at you to get your attention!"

God whispers in our souls and speaks to our hearts. Sometimes when we don't have time to listen,He has to throw a brick at us. It's our choice to listen or not.

Thought for the Day:If God had a refrigerator, your picture would be on it.

If He had a wallet,your photo would be in it.

He sends you flowers every spring. He sends you a sunrise every morning. Face it, friend - He is crazy about you!

God didn't promise days without pain, laughter without sorrow, sun without rain, but He did promise strength for the day, comfort for the tears, and light for the way.

Jesus said look the fields are teaming with opportunities.

Lord bless
Hugh :)

Hugh--

What an encouragement!!

--joe

Original post:
This thread is dedicated to those who want to glorify the Lord Jesus Christ. Serious posters only, please post what was/is Christ like, from what you have learned from the Scriptures.

What was/is Christ like?

- full of grace and truth
- came to do the will of the Father
- no idle word proceeded from His mouth
- zeal for His Father's house consumed Him
- had compassion on the multitudes
- spoke boldly against religiosity
- came to serve
- gave His life a ransom for many


Crucified laid behind the stone
You lived to die rejected and alone
Like the rose
Like a Rose trampled on the ground
Trampled on the ground
You took the fall and thought of me
You took the fall
Above all
And thought of me
Song by Michael W. Smith "Above All"


Response #1:
Your list is a reminder that Christ was "balanced" in his approach to people and His mission.

John 1:14 is SO important. John says that "we beheld his glory/character, and that the best description of that character was: "full of grace and truth".

Jesus was 100% GRACE. That reality is clear in his emotional response to the masses. He was filled with compassion. When a proud, rich, young ruler came to him, Jesus didn't immediately "put him in his place", but he dialogued with him... and "loved him." With all who came seeking, he treated them with compassion, tenderness. He SAW them. He TOUCHED them. He met spoken needs, but went deeper to resolve those unspoken needs and heal those inner hurts as well. He was LOVE personified.

But he was also 100% TRUTH. With that same proud, rich, young ruler, Jesus ultimately identified the source of his spiritual pride and called him to face the truth about himself. When the price proved too great, Jesus allowed him to walk away rather than negotiate or compromise. (But he also didn't chide him as he left or shout condemnations at him as he turned away. Still 100% grace while standing 100% on the side of truth) Jesus was consistently truthful, but consistently spoke the truth in love.

Jesus understood his mission and fulfilled it. He refused to be sidetracked or settle for a substitute solution (as offered by Satan in the temptations). He had a "big picture" understanding of that mission - He had come to save the world - but he retained a "one person at a time" understanding of how the mission must be fulfilled. He took time for people who were interested and open to Him. As a result, He could cry out at Calvary, "It is finished." despite the millions of lives yet unsaved and untouched. It was because he understood His own unique part in the mission - to be the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world; and to be the Teacher/Trainer who made disciples & equipped those disciples to do the work of discipleship - and also understood the part of the mission that belonged to others.

I believe that our greatest need today is to recapture that same sense of mission - understanding that we are to be the continuation of the ministry of Christ - to seek and save the lost/to make disciples of all nations. But I also believe that we must recapture that same sense of Christian character that is missing in much of the church today - that 100% GRACE matched by 100% TRUTH that proves invitingly intoxicating to those seeking to find meaning and purpose to life... that proves welcoming and affirming to those who will risk entering into Christian dialogue... but also that proves 100% truthful in the demands of Christian commitment without the slick marketing & misleading messages that comes with our Americanized perversion of the Christian message. And without the competitive spirit that allows us to justify our condemning/combative/argumentative approach to non-believers as well as fellow Christians who don't share our particular denominational/doctrinal positions. Rather than being so focused on winning arguments, we need to remember that our mission is to win hearts.

Response #2:
God/Jesus are:

• Lovingly gentle
• Lovingly firm
• Faithful
• True
• Merciful
• Forgiving
• Communicative
• Just
• Ever vigilant
• All powerful
• All knowledgeable
• Everpresent
• Everlasting
• Never changing
• Gracious
• Eternal
• Lord
• All that I need

Thanks Marcia!

  I think we needed that.  :)


                                 God Bless,  Mark C.