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Some interesting stuff from the USGS web site...

Magnitude 9.0 OFF THE WEST COAST OF NORTHERN SUMATRA
Sunday, December 26, 2004 at 00:58:53 UTC

Preliminary Earthquake Report
U.S. Geological Survey, National Earthquake Information Center
World Data Center for Seismology, Denver

The devastating megathrust earthquake of December 26, 2004, occurred on the interface of the India and Burma plates and was caused by the release of stresses that develop as the India plate subducts beneath the overriding Burma plate. The India plate begins its descent into the mantle at the Sunda trench, which lies to the west of the earthquake's epicenter. The trench is the surface expression of the plate interface between the Australia and India plates, situated to the southwest of the trench, and the Burma and Sunda plates, situated to the northeast.

In the region of the earthquake, the India plate moves toward the northeast at a rate of about 6 cm/year relative to the Burma plate. This results in oblique convergence at the Sunda trench. The oblique motion is partitioned into thrust-faulting, which occurs on the plate-interface and which involves slip directed perpendicular to the trench, and strike-slip faulting, which occurs several hundred kilometers to the east of the trench and involves slip directed parallel to the trench. The December 26 earthquake occurred as the result of thrust-faulting.

Preliminary locations of larger aftershocks following the megathrust earthquake show that approximately 1200 km of the plate boundary slipped as a result of the earthquake. By comparison with other large megathrust earthquakes, the width of the causative fault-rupture was likely over one-hundred km. From the size of the earthquake, it is likely that the average displacement on the fault plane was about fifteen meters. The sea floor overlying the thrust fault would have been uplifted by several meters as a result of the earthquake. The above estimates of fault-dimensions and displacement will be refined in the near future as the result of detailed analyses of the earthquake waves.

The world's largest recorded earthquakes have all been megathrust events, occurring where one tectonic plate subducts beneath another. These include:

the magnitude 9.5 1960 Chile earthquake, the magnitude 9.2 1964 Prince William Sound, Alaska, earthquake, the magnitude 9.1 1957 Andreanof Islands, Alaska, earthquake, and the magnitude 9.0 1952 Kamchatka earthquake. As with the recent event, megathrust earthquakes often generate large tsunamis that cause damage over a much wider area than is directly affected by ground shaking near the earthquake's rupture.





 

The science of this disaster is a bit more than I can form a mental picture of without the benefit of visual aids.  

But, having experienced the Chatsworth, CA quake of 1970, a MUCH milder shaking than the 12/26/04 event, I can testify to how interminable a single minute can seem when it is impossible to stand without falling.  And having stood hip-deep in the ocean while a strong undertow virtually sucked the sandy footing from beneath me, I have an inkling of the horror one must feel in being swept away by irresistable torrents of water.

The daily-mounting death toll and the hardships of survivors of the Indian Ocean event sound two strong chords in my heart:

Thank God for redemption through His grace unto salvation by faith in Jesus Christ, and

Come quickly, Lord Jesus...


al

Al, the description of your past experience with quakes and ocean currents is a nice follow up to the USGS stuff.  The geologists claim that the next subduction zone quake of the west coast (Mexico to Alaska area) is about 300 years from now.  A respectable geologist I used to work with said that it could be anytime.  Despite the number crunching the scientists perform for grant money to finance their research and the development of reports, all I can say is

Thank God for redemption through His grace unto salvation by faith in Jesus Christ,and

Come quickly, Lord Jesus.

A couple of interesting notes:

1.  A province in Sri Lanka (I can't remember the name) is majority extreme Muslim and has been closed to Westerners.  The tsunami has opened the door to Westerners such as those at Samaritan's Purse.

2.  In Sri Lanka, there is fighting between a faction in the North and in the South.  The tsunami interrupted a Northern attack and each side is sending aid to the other.  Sri Lanka newspaper read "tsunami brings peace".

I know these little anecdotes don't seem to justify the magnitude of the disaster.  I can't wrap my brain around over 150,000 dead (and more sure to come as they discover bodies and due to water born diseases as fresh water is their biggest immediate need).  But, it does imply a working of God that is beyond our ability and understanding.

Here is the giving so far:

Japan            - 500M
U.S                - 332M
Germany        - 20M
Saudi Arabia  -10M
Kuwait           - 10M

Interesting no?

Verne

Verne,

The statistics don't tell the complete story.  One of the differences between the US and many other countries is the amount of money given by Americans through private foundations and charities.

Example: World Vision has set a goal of $50,000,000 for this disaster alone.  When I talked to one of their representatives last Thursday she said the donations were coming in at a rate of $100,000 per HOUR.   Their website was backed up...couldn't handle all the people trying to contribute!  

That is one American charity.

Interesting no?

Thomas Maddux

Indeed. American generosity far outstrips any other nation when private giving is included. The point of my post was the response of muslim nations - paricularly the really wealthy ones...interesting yes?  :)
Verne
p.s there is a good reason why so many are giving to World Vision.  You get a great gospel bang for the buck... :)

I have an inside view of the donation situation.  Our data entry/incoming mail room has been working 12 hour days for the past week (including holiday) trying to keep up with the donations.  At one point someone said they were coming into our web site at 2 per minute.  We also get much from our 800 number service.   Without giving more specifics (and getting myself in trouble), I can honestly say that there are lots of folks out there willing to give from the small gifts to the large.

This morning, we had a meeting to discuss better automaticing our credit card procedure.

Samaritan's Purse emphasis at the start is providing the immediate need of clean water with millions of packets of water chemicals, reverse osmosis filters, etc.  We are also providing some food and our famous blue-plastic-tarp shelter.

Folks have been staking out the area in order to determine the best place to locate.  We are similar to World Vision (in fact Dr. Bob Pierce who started World Vision left and then started Samaritan's Purse before handing it to Franklin Graham).  As a result, we are attempting to find areas to minister where we can 1) Use the Operation Christmas Child network we already have established 2) Put us in a strategic position to minister to folks who would not normally hear the gospel such as a muslim area.  

Even so, our efforts is a drop in the bucket compared with the big picture.  This thing was massive in its impact.

God richly bless your labor Dave.
I think they are going to have to come up with some way to do larger scale water purification.
The level of contamination that is being reported is going to really load even very efficient RO filtration systems.
I sent a pump and unit to some missionary friends in Asia a few yeas ago who were having big problems with Arsenic in their water but it was not the best solution unfortunately.
I had to get government permission to avoid violation of statutes related to exporting of U.S technology!  ::)

God is really working in the 10/40 window but I think the door may not be open too much longer from what I am hearing.
It will become increasingly difficult for Americans in general, and for Christians in particular to show the love of Christ to the muslim world as the conflict between their world views inevitably escalates. I think much depends on what happens in Iraq.
We need to pray for wisdom for our president and national leaders. Things over there are much worse than is being reported.
Nonetheless America is a great country. May God's grace rest upon her...
Verne

After reading the second BB reference to the 10/40 window, and still being uncertain of its meaning ???, I looked it up.  (The term sounded vaguely familiar, but I hadn't heard it used in long enough that I had forgot what it meant. :-[

So I'm an ignoramus-- nobody hereabouts should be surprised :o.  Here's an informative 10/40 window link for my fellow ignorami:

                    http://1040window.org/main/whatis.htm (http://1040window.org/main/whatis.htm)

(I had to look up ignorami, too.  I thought it had something to do with folding paper into animals & birds...) ;D

al ;)

Dave,

Caryl told me that she had just heard Paul "The Rest of the Story" Harvey complaining about Franklin Graham.

She says that PH claimed that FG said that the earthquake and the resultant tsunami was sent by God as a punishment upon the evil of men.

I suspect that what he actually said was altered somewhat as it was transmitted from FG to PH to Caryl to me.

Do you know what was actually said?

Thomas Maddux

 "We're not attacking Islam but Islam has attacked us. The God of Islam is not the same God. He's not the son of God of the Christian or Judeo-Christian faith. It's a different God and I believe it is a very evil and wicked religion."
                                                                             Franklin Graham
                                                                 

I don't know about that specific tsunami remark but FG has been one of few evengelical leaders with the courage to speak the truth regarding Islam's advocating of physical violence toward non-muslims. The spirit of accommodation that prevails today is preparing the world, including Christians who ought to know better, for the ultimate compromise.
He has been accused of "spreading hate" (boy who does that remind us of ?) for his comments in this regard.

Christians also believe in perpetrating violence against evil - spiritual violence

It is the sanctioned force the believer may employ for the accomplishment of God's will.

The day of the soft, sentimental and sycophantic has most of us in thrall, lacking any passion for truth and the righteousness of Jehovah.

I agree with Graham that a response of love in no way contrains us from speaking the truth. That tidal wave did not take God by surprise.

For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;   2 Cor 10:3-5
Verne

I haven't heard PH or FG, but here is a transcript from Franklin's statements he made last evening.  I wouldn't mind getting a transcript of the Paul Harvey piece if one is available.

---

Franklin Graham on Religious Aspects of Tsunami Disaster

Sean Hannity, Alan Colmes
2,454 words
4 January 2005
Fox News: Hannity & Colmes
English
(c) 2005 FDCH / eMedia, Inc. All Rights Reserved

 

We now continue with Franklin Graham.

Franklin, do you believe that God is a benevolent god or a vengeful god, and if you believe God is benevolent, how do you say that to a family who's suffering because of loss they've incurred in this kind of a disaster?

GRAHAM: When we read the scripture we know that God is a God of love and at the same time he is a God who does have anger. And he is a God who's going to judge one day all sin. And that's -- that's just a fact.

But God does love us and God wants us to turn from our sins, and he wants us to receive his salvation, which is Jesus Christ. When we see disasters like this, as we were saying a few moments ago, I don't understand all that goes behind this. It is a mystery. But we can be assured of God's love and his presence. In the midst of a storm he's there.

COLMES: How can someone believe that who is suffering, who's lost a family member, who is injured? How can they understand or even receive that message?

GRAHAM: I think call -- call on God and ask him for -- for his love, ask him for peace, ask him for wisdom. And he's there, and he's willing to love us and, you know, we've got to invite him in. Many times people put God at a distance, and they don't want God in their lives.

But at times like this it's a good time for all of us to search our own hearts and to make sure that we're ready to stand before God. Because I promise you, Alan, your life is going to come to an end one day and so is mine. And we need to be ready whenever that could be.

Those people that were vacationing, taking their Christmas and New Year's break down there in Thailand never dreamed that their life would come to an end like this.

COLMES: Is God punishing them?

GRAHAM: I cannot say that. And I don't believe that. Disasters like this happen. Storms like this happen in life. And good happens to bad people and bad things happen to good people and vice versa.

And so I don't understand all of it. But I know there is a God, and my faith and trust is in him and his son Jesus Christ.

HANNITY: What do you say, there's one minister in Australia who said this was a warning of God's judgment and involves his judgment upon the sinfulness of humanity. Another guy said God has unleashed his anger on the people.

Do you think -- are those statements true?

GRAHAM: Well, it may have been taken a little bit out of context. The Bible teaches that in the end times that there are going to be an increase in wickedness. There's going to be earthquakes in various places. There's going to be an increase in all of this.

And so I think as a minister of the gospel I look at this, and I just say to myself that maybe this is the beginning of the end, as God has spoken about. I don't know.

The Bible teaches that in the end times that there are going to be an increase in wickedness. There's going to be earthquakes in various places. There's going to be an increase in all of this.

And so I think as a minister of the gospel I look at this, and I just say to myself that maybe this is the beginning of the end, as God has spoken about. I don't know.


Earthquakes occur at a fairly consistent sequence, provided the continental plates move with repect to each other at a consistent rate.  What drives the movement of the continental plates can be expained with basic physics.  Just as water boils at 100 degrees celcius at atmospheric pressure, so do earthquakes occur when the load capacity of the plate interface is exceeded.  It bothers me just a little when Christians say that the quake was the result of sin.  It seems better if they would spend less time dwelling on those subjects and more time with the issues of salvation.  

It is true that there is a basis in natural science for the explanation of the how of geological phenomena, only the Bible ultimately tells us the why.
The Christian, based on what the Bible teaches, has to conclude that the entire course of nature is under the control and direction of the Son of God.

And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.  Col 1:17  

Visible things do not have their orgin in visible sources, therefore their course in space-time clearly is not soley dependent on visible causes.
While I know some do not agree with me on this, all of life's catatrophies in my view result from the presence of sin in the cosmos. This includes death dealing tragedies like tsunamis.  Just my two cents.  :)
Verne

I don't think he is saying that earthquakes are a result of sin.

When I first became a Christian I was caught up in the Hal Linsey Bible prophecy craze of the 1970's.  (It was similar to the current Left Behind craze except back then we really believed that it was true and had many conversations about the rapture and the Lord's return).   It was not unusual for a preacher to talk about Jesus' Olivet discourse where he talks about wars and rumors of wars, earthquakes, etc.  They would then point out that they are like birth pangs happening more frequently in the latter times signaling that we were close to the end times, the Lords return, and the rapture that would occur some time in the 1980's. ;)

I don't know if it is provable that earthquakes happen more often or with more intensity now than centuries ago. However, the basic argument is that "they are and therefore the end times are upon us" is an evangelistic argument that has been around as long as I have been a Christian - probably longer.

I think this is where Franklin was coming from in his statement - rising intensity of earthquakes are a sign of the end times.  In fact, it seems to me that he was pretty clear in saying that that God was not punishing those people through the tidal wave.

Does anybody believe what happened in the ancient city of Pompeii had anything to do with their conduct? or was it just geological serendipity? (mount Vesuvius having a bad day)
I am serious...
Verne

Good Question.
I remember the first time reading the old testiment and trying to understand how a God of love could instruct the children of Israel to wipe out some nations they encountered, some time later  I was watching a documentary on  public television piecing together the lifestyle of an ancient culture that was recently unearthed, if I remember correctly it was the same name as one of the nations Israel destroyed. Basicly the cultures religon was sex, they had a temple with four walls and no roof, temple women (priestess) would have sex , become pregnant and immediately after giving birth the child would be sacrificed, put in a jar and buried in the temple. They unearthed thousands of these jars. Did God use Israel as an instrument of judgement ?
Yet if conduct determines demise, what about Uriah the Hittite?(2nd Samuel11) a good man in Gods eyes but his wife is unfaithful to him, his king who he is loyal to takes Uriahs wife for his own pleasure, Uriahs loyalty as a solder prevents him from indulging himself, so basicly he is murdered for being a good man.
  I don't try to figure out what God is doing.

Pompeii was destroyed because it was built alongside an active volcano.  Here's a tip: don't build city next to volcano.

Do you mean like Mexico City?

Should we move the city of San Francisco then?  :)
Verne

There are seismic faults and volcanoes all over the place.  No place is 100% safe from potential tragedy caused by geologic events. The tragedy surrounding the Indian Ocean seismic event is incredibly saddening, and there's nothing much else I can add to that.

It seems to me any cosmolgy that is both sound and Biblical has to take into consideration the cosmic conflict going on in the world between good and evil. There are evil forces beyond the  merely natural at work.
We know what Satan did to poor Job.
While we can not with certainty attribute the cause of any great tragedy such as the recent one, to disbelieve the above premise is to disbelieve our Bibles.
I believe God also allows these kinds of catastrophic things to occur to remind mankind that all is not well with the world...the groanings of the creation as it were.
You cannot provide meaningful comfort to those grieving over lost loved ones apart from a cosmology that explains as well as acknowledges the obvious - death and sorrow being a part of life's existence (because of the fall ) AND that God has through the sacrifice of His own Son  designed the full restoration of all things - man and nature.
I think this is the basis on which we offer both explanation and  hope to people.




My wife and I took a second honeymoon (after seven years of raising our girls) and stayed at the Mark Thompson on Nob Hill. It is such a beautiful city. All the time I was there I told the Lord to please don't start anything until I left.... :)
Verne

My wife and I lived in SF for several years and moved out because we got tired of all the Kerry voters.  If a subduction zone earthquake off the SF coast occurs, then the place is toast.  I'm not affraid of the earthquakes, they are actually fun to experience, and you don't have to wait in line for the ride.  As a structural engineer, I like 'em more because they make the job interesting.  The safest place to live is probably Las Vegas, very few earthquakes, and safe buildings. However, if God wants to destroy the place, I'll just say that the Building Code doesn't account for acts of God in the design criteria.

Verne,

Among the cities of the Roman world, Pompeii was sort of a sleepy resort town.  Seems to me that Rome or Corinth would have been more likely to bring divine judgement on their conduct.  At least if the quantity of evil acts matters.

This idea reminds me of an announcement that I heard in my adult Sunday School class a few years back.  Seems the Buddhists on Taiwan had planned a big parade on some special festival day.  They were going to parade their idols down the streets and honor them in various ways.

The whole thing was rained out.  Had to be cancelled because of an unexpected rain storm.  The lady announced that God had sent the storm in order to show his displeasure with the Buddhists.

A few weeks later a tornado hit a Baptist church back in, I think, Tennessee.  It hit during sunday services.  About 100 Baptists were killed, including a bunch of kids.    I remember thinking, "I wonder if X is going to get up and announce that God doesn't approve of Baptists."   She didn't.

But that is the problem with this sort of thing.  Natural tragedies have happened to just about everyone.  So, how could we know whether they have some spiritual message?  Beats me.

Thomas Maddux

Here is a picture extracted from a pdf file from this web site:

http://www.iris.iris.edu/sumatra/ (http://www.iris.iris.edu/sumatra/)

(http://www.briantucker.net/bb/attachments/sumt_GSN.jpg)

It takes a little more than 20 minutes for the pressure waves to reach the opposite side of the earth.  The surface waves take about an hour and a half to do the same.  3 hours after the earthquake, having circled the earth, the waves return to their origin, then return a second time after 3 more hours, and more repetitions follow.  The first return of the waves can be seen to trigger a 7.1 aftershock.  Though the aftershock is bigger than the Northridge earthquake, it seems like an insignificant glitch compared with the original 9.0 earthquake and its circling waves.  Reverberations of the pressure waves from the Sumatra earthquake are expected to remain detectable well into April.

The largest momentary displacement (of the ground from its usual position) shown in the graph is about 2 inches, as recorded at one of the 2 closest seismometers, which were about 1000 miles away from the earthquake.  Another graph from the web site shows about 3/8 of an inch momentary displacement in Scotland, at a distance of about 6000 miles.

God has reasons for everything he does, though we often don't know them.  He knows all the details of his work in each individual person's life out of the millions who were hurt by the Sumatra earthquake.

Tom & Steve are both zeroed in on an important point here:  God knows exactly what He's doing at all times.  We often don't know what His reasons are, and it would be unwise of us to fake it.

Years ago my late father worked alongside a Jehovah's Witness.  Shortly after a cataclysmic natural event in South America, the JW told us that several Christian missions in the area had been severely damaged, but the local Kingdom Hall was unscathed, "proving" that the watchtower way is the true way.  It may have been a strong selling point to a lot of people.

Thanks be to God that He has given us all the information we need in His Word.  Beyond that is only speculation-- interesting, even fascinating, but nonessential to our lives in this world or the next.

Anybody think it interesting that the two U.S cities most ripe for natural disaster(geologists say it's a matter of when not if) also happen to be two of the most flagitous?
Verne

       ...but why would it matter how many flags they are flying ??? ??? ???

al ;)

Hey Dan F :
If you are still reading, Paul and I are going up to Chicago to get certification from the guy who invented ICF Quad-Locks. What happened in New Orleans is a good example of why this is the wave of the future.
I have a few questions so send me a PM if you are still around.
Verne

What's a PM?

Personal Message on board.

2r

Thanks.  Now to figure out how to leave a PM for our Carribean friend.

If you click on his name on any one of his posts, it will bring you to his user profile page.  At the bottom you have the option to send him a personal message.

2r

P.S.  it might be easier to email him.  You can get his emaill address off his user profile page.
2r