- Why I stayed for as long as I did.

: Brent A. Tr0ckman March 01, 2005, 09:41:58 PM

I think what she is trying to say is, "If things were as bad as you say they were, why did you stay in that situation? Why didn't you get up and leave?" I assumed it was a question aimed at a large audience, namely those of us who believe we suffered abuse of one form or another in the Assembly.

In my opinion it is a valid question, and one that each of us should really answer. Why did it take so long for some of us to get up and walk out?

It is due to a character flaw/weakness in each of us, which has been discussed at length on this very forum. That weakness, coupled with other factors allowed us to become entangled in George's world. It's the same type of dynamic that enables a woman to stay in an abusive relationship.

We all need to face this, in order to own our own culpability in the matter. Certainly George "did it" to us, in many ways....however, what sane person would allow him to do this? That's a tough one to swallow.

I would say that the Assembly sympathizers, who are still following God's perfect pattern of testimony, and reading George's books, etc.....they really need to face this, as do those who inisist that they were serving God, in spite of the problems. I maintain that even the most sincere among the latter group need to ask themselves why there were oblivious to the hurting sheep around them, and why they continue to place most of the blame on the victims, and not on those who have the greater sin.

I'm not directing this at anyone in particular, because I think each of us falls into at least one of the groups I listed above. All I am trying to say is that in the final analysis, very few people were physically held captive. There were some who came close, like Judy, and some of the children, but most of us were there by choice, and remained there because we were too cowardly to stand tall and walk out.

If there is anything I'll say about Sondra, it is that at least she had the courage to get up and leave. Regardless of anything else she may say, think or do, she certainly bested me on that count.

Brent

I did consider leaving on a number of occasions.
But why did I not get up and leave when I saw the abuse, and the hypocrisy, and even after I was convinced that I did not want to be a LBW nor a worker?

1. I figured that most churches have problems and I learned to maintain my peace with all concerned whether or not I saw eye to eye with them.

2. In my thinking, leaving would be like leaving the Lord and the one true vision. Where else could I go anyway?

3. I did not know anything other than the assembly and had been indoctrinated by 'this ministry'.

4. All of my friends were in the assembly. Leaving would mean losing them.

5. I was stubborn, and there was a certain pride with being able to stick through the trials of assembly life.

When I did leave after the "light came on" so-to-speak, I went through hell. Imagine what it would have been like if I had left without being convicted that the assembly was a false religious system.
Kudos to those who were brave enough to leave of their own free will.

Marcia

For me, it was a matter of maturity. I was conditioned to think that others were right and I was wrong. My mother was obsessively controlling and would nag until I finally gave in and submitted to her way - even when she was wrong, she was right. My dad was passive to my plight, but would handle any conflict I had with her by blowing up. He was quite intimmidating. As a result, I never learned how healthy people conducted themselves when they disagreed. I learned that to get through life, you need to submit to those stronger than you and hope for the best.

Add to this the fact, that the Assembly emphasied distrust for oneself. Is George's mishandling of Scripture really that bad or am I just unwilling to submit to what the Lord wants? Is the pain I am feeling wrong or is it part of the cross that God wants in my life? Maybe George has spiritual insight that I am simply not seeing. After all, everyone else seems to see it.

I was immature for my age and it took me some time (twelve years by my count) to figure out and be convinced that the problem was not me. It also took the support of others.

In addition, I think I really wanted to believe. I really wanted to be a part of a vibrant, Christian community and part of a movement that gave my life meaning. I think the Assembly filled that void until it became too painful to be worth it. It was like a kid who knows that there is no Santa Clause but will believe in him anyway because he doesn't want to miss out on the presents.

It has been my observation that folks left the Assembly when it got too painful for them to maintain. Generally, a significant thing happened such as when Steve Irons got the boot or when George got exposed to suddenly wake someone up to say "I've had enough." Until then, we became masters at compensating and justifying while we tried to get our needs met. As the saying goes, "better the devil we know than the one we don't."

Thanks Marcia and Dave for sharing so openly. Both your testimonies illustrate Sondra's point (on another thread) that God has used the assembly for good in our lives, according to His Word (Rom.8:28)

I confess that I was under a cloud of deception for years, even after being away from the assembly, and that my deception was self-induced and self-enforced, much as Dave and Marcia have described.

Both my wife Cathy and I, from diametrically different backgrounds, had wondered as young Christians how people could settle for just "warming a pew," in light of so great salvation. We both wanted to live lives of service to God, and the assembly provided the perfect setting for that. All we had to do was silence our inner objections toward GG & his program, and the ministry provided us with the tools for achieving that.

We don't regret a minute of it now. We needed it. We weren't ready for anything else at that time, and the Lord has taught us amazing things through our assembly history, now that we are no longer under its yoke.

In Christ,
al

Wow---this is amazing. I feel exactly the same way. In fact, I think we should accept
George back into the position of leader. After all, those looking not to "warm the pews"
would have a "perfect setting" for achieving true service to God. All they would have
to do is silence their inner objections and they will have the tools for achieving it.

Perhaps right now they "need it"--they need an Assembly experience. The Lord
can teach them amazing things through George. Perhaps these ones are not ready
for anything else. Believe me, they won't regret one minute of it. I personally want
to thank Sondra for enlightening all of us to the true value of the Assembly experience
in all of our lives.

Thanks for your post Al. I needed to recognize what a beautiful experience the Assembly
was, and how thankful I am for all of the abuse we all suffered. George wasn't such a
bad guy after all, and the system really helped to better all of us in the long run.

Can someone please explain to me what is going on here, and for the past few days? Are
we now in the midst of an Assembly lovefest? Forgive me for the sarcasm, but I am completely
exapperated right now. I've had my own story of past abuse(a history) questioned, and now
see a trend towards stating how good the Assembly really was for all of us. This I find truly
saddening in light of what we know happened there.

---Joe

: Marcia March 02, 2005, 03:36:13 AM

Al,

I believe that the Lord worked despite the assembly abuse. I do not agree that my testimony illustrates Sondra's point.

It should never happened that gatherings calling themselves Christian should have developed into the spiritually abusive places that they did. So many lives were/are affected and some continue to remain in bondage to the system. :P

Marcia

Marcia & all,

I wasn't saying that the assembly "should have been," but simply that it was, and certainly not that it was the Lord's work, but that as you say, the Lord worked in spite of it, as Rom.8:28 explains. I'm sorry-- I thought that was Sondra's point. That's why I said your testimony demonstrated it. What it demostrates to me is that God chooses the circumstances by which He perfects the implementation of His plan: You entered the assy as a newborn babe in Christ, and in that place, in spite of what it was, He matured you to the point of recognizing your need to leave there and being able to do so. No small thing in my book.

Again, I apologize for the misunderstanding.

In Christ,
al

: Eulaha L. March 01, 2005, 10:18:55 PM

This thread has certainly taken an interesting turn.

The reason I didn't leave the Assembly sooner than I did was because I honestly believed it would offend God...at least that's what had been reinforced in my thinking by the lb's and the head stewards of the various homes I lived in. I would have left the group day one if I had known what direction my life would go in.

But...I am glad I went through that experience, because I wouldn't be where I am today. I am a much stronger young woman, more assertive, more alert, more devoted to my God. I have made lifelong friends with the very people who shared that Assembly experience with me. The Assembly was like a 40-year wilderness experience...I came out a victor! :)

I certainly did not intend to "sing the praises of the Assembly". What I attempted to communicate is that I have become a better person as a result of my "Assembly wolderness" experience. Now...do I long for the Assembly ways once again-no way!

: Joe Sperling March 02, 2005, 03:15:42 AM

Joe,

I didn't read all the whole scenerio on the "Listen to Sondra rant thread". I just saw you shared a story and then a little bit later, your post was disected into small fragments and you were put on the defensive again.

I thought, "poor Joe". It's "how 'bout them Patriots" all over again :-\

I know you're upset and in some ways you have a right to be. However, I think these posts are more along the line of "what I learned going through the holocost" as opposed to "how great the holocost was and why I would do it again". At least, that is where I am coming from.

Note and clarification: I am not likening the Assembly to Nazi Germany. I am using an over-exagerated example to make a point.

: Dave Sable March 02, 2005, 09:52:16 PM

My take is:

Christians zealously want to serve the Lord = good.
Christians study their Bible on a regular basis = good.
Young people want to evangelize their campus = good.
Believers want to worship simply and participate personally = good.
Young believers taught to preach = good.
We live together in community in contrast to our fragmented society = good.

George and Betty control everything and is unaccountable - everything tanks down the toilet big time - very bad.

It is understandable that we would try to extract the "good" from that era. Do we in doing so, really miss the larger and in my view, far more critical lesson?
The problem was not in my view, one of control.
The cosmos runs under a monarchy.
The problem was profound and studied wickedness. There is a difference...

Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. Matt 12:33

Verne

This is a general comment and not a response to any post in particular.

God is good despite the Assembly’s corrupt abusive system.
In fact God is good to all, “He causes the sun to rise on both the good and the evil...”

We studied John 11 today at my women’s Bible study group. The Pharisaical leaders were unable to recognize what was staring them in the face because they were pre-occupied with preserving their self image and lifestyles, to the point where they sought to kill Jesus and even Lazarus.

They became blind guides of the blind.

The stories indicate that the assembly system was abusive and corrupt. No one ever denied that there were some exceptions to the rule.

Marcia

: VerneCarty March 02, 2005, 10:30:37 PM

I don't think I miss that lesson at all. I think George and Betty's control is indeed the key issue of why the Assembly was unhealthy. Even when I was in the Assembly, I used to have this thought pop into my head often: "George is the uprising and the downfall of the Assembly."

I think even if we kept many distinctives things pretty much the same (headcoverings, style of worship, campus ministry, community living, etc., not unhealthy attitudes and intimidating practices) but put it under a man such as Chuck Smith or any other genuine Christian leader, I think God could have used the Assemblies to do much good. George had some great ideas. He just couldn't keep his "hands off God's things", if you will. It always had to be about him (with a little h).

: Dave Sable March 02, 2005, 11:06:36 PM

You may be right.
My own thinking is that as goes our assessment of George Geftakys, so goes our assessment of the assemblies.
You really cannot separate them in my view.
If we accept your line of reasoning, it would justify their continuation without him.
I think what happened there was far more serious than just the wrong man at the top.
Verne

: VerneCarty March 02, 2005, 11:37:33 PM

Yes, you are right on that point. I think the Assemblies become George incarnate taking on his personality and paranoia. If I lived in Fullerton and Placentia I might venture a visit just to see old friends, but I wouldn't consider trying to keep the thing alive.

My point is more along this lines: Chuck Smith and George Geftakys started movements about the same time and both movements had some similar characteristics. Chuck's evolved into a major Christian denomination and has been a great blessing to many over TV, radio, stadium outreaches, Christian music, etc. George's movement, well . . .

If at the very beginning, Chuck started the Assemblies and George stated Calvary Chapel, the blessings and cursing would be reversed because, as you say, the fruit of these individuals.

I'm not saying that if a new leader took over the Assemblies now that it would suddenly flourish. It's too late for that.

: Dave Sable March 03, 2005, 12:44:05 AM

I hear ya.
Here is my take - your illustration of Chuck vs George highlights the importance of our distinguishing the true from the false when it comes to spiritual matters.
This is the manner in which I think we will all be judged as regards the lesson of the Geftakys era.
Verne

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