AssemblyBoard

   I just finished reading the History of the Assembly thread. Yes I agree, I believe that G.G. is a very wicked and evil man. After reading "Krystan's Story" I recant my comments about regreting to "clean his clock" after running into him at Starbucks. I think he is a psychotic control freek bordering on pedofilia?  (Krystan seemed to have a 14 year old mentallity/psychology) George thrived on making us all into children and then indulging his desires on us.  Think about it, there are brothels all over the Los Angeles area and all over the countries he visited 9 months of the year. If it was just sex he was after he could have/probably did/ drive to Santa Monica and been home before the afternoon. "Hi Betty!" Instead he had to play sick games with the sisters. A few years ago I was working in a hospital in Tustin. I had a patient who had some very curious wounds to his stomach.  Later I discovered that this man molested children and was the victim of small town justice. I had the impression that the police were not trying too hard to find the attacker. But anyway what I wanted to adress in this thread is the fact that "evil" seems to be in every leader I have come across. Recently I had breakfast with an old high school friend. We went to the First Baptist Church of Lakewood  together. He brought me up to date on the leaders there. Pastor Bore (No pun intended) was given papers for adultery in 1986. Randy Sikes (The high school leader) was kicked out in 82 for having sex with the high school girls (Randy was in his 30's at the time) You may remember Randy was later arrested in La Habra for kidnapping and rape in 1985. He was later cleared of charges but the circumstances ruined him for good.) Bill McKee a youth  pastor at Hume lake, was found to be having sex with women at E.V. Free Church. While I was attending grace Bible Chapel in Fullerton the Elder, Bob Seeker, who was married with 4 children was sleeping with a girl in the college  group. Next we all know about David Hocking, Mike Crocorous? spelling?(Church of the Open door) and most recently the most aggresively anti-homosexual pastor in O.C., Paul Crouch was exposed for paying hush money to a former partner. Ironic that all these men made it their buisness to make sure I was not having sex!!!  Funny I never did!!!  But sure felt guilty for wanting to!!! I ask you is anyone really qualified for leadership????

Sad. Isn't it??

You are right about this: "George thrived on making us all into children and then ..."
It is the only way he could control us and maintain his lifestyle.  We would not have stayed had we truly been "growing up into Christ".

Who is qualified for leadership?

The one who does not take advantage of the sheep and who truly cares for the well-being of the sheep instead.

Blessings,
Marcia

Hi David:
Most folk, including his former hand-picked leaders, have indeed concluded that Geftakys was an evil man; so much so that they ex-communicated him. You will no doubt find it remarkable that there are still some however who will try to convince you that this man was the "Lord's servant".
Believe it or not, we actually had someone like that posting on this very BB.
More remarkably David, we also had folk (and some still do) taking a person like this seriously if you can imagine.
It was a startling illustration of how places like the assemblies get started and sustained.
Too many Christians are either out and out spiritually obtuse, or simply too cowardly to speak the truth.
The record of men in ministry succumbing to sexual temptation is incredibly depressing and I am not sure why this is going on.
Obviously this is an area in which we men have to excercise particular vigilance because of our natrual inclinations.
Clearly men who truly desire to serve Jesus Christ will be the particular target of the adversary's schemes to ruin them for service and he has used sex with terrible effectiveness.
Having said that, your question about who is fit for leadership is searching.
The case can certainly be made, that many men end up in positions of leadership who have no business being there.
It is my opinion that if the church would simply abide by the Biblical standard for leadership, we would not see nearly so many instances of failure.
I remember for example when I was studying the qulaifications for elder in 1 Timothy 3 and came across the phrase:

...the husband of one wife...

Like most folk I had assumed that it simply meant the elder should not be a divorced and remarried person.
Of course any one who has studied the passage will tell you that it means far more than that.
The idea is the the elder should be a "one-woman kind of man".

It had a profound impact on my own thinking- it was not good enough to just be "faithful" to one's spouse.
The standard called for one to be so completely filled with God's Spirit, that even the natural tendency we men have for "roving eyes" and "wandering thoughts" would be brought into subjection.
There is not a  (normal) man alive who does not know that in our natural strength this is impossible, but that is just the point.
Who is qualfied for leadership?
The man or woman whom God qualifies! We just need to uphold the standard.
Verne

While at GBC I met G.V. Mahti. (Spelling?) G.V was/is well acquainted with G.G. and a man named Bahkt Sing (Spelling?)  G.V. runs a mission organization. Something about him seemed suspect to me. Although G.V. was primarily associated with the Plymouth Bretheren he has no qualms about speaking in denominational groups in and around Southern California in order to raise money for his mission org. Many churches such as La Mirada Friends  support G.V.'s ministry. (See his picture on the mission wall)  also he has been at Biola for a number of events. Dr David Black participated with G.V. on a mission trip during the early 90's. A friend of mine, Cliff Teemy went also. Cliff returned from the trip very discouraged.  He told me that what G.V. advertised as a great mission work was greatly exaggerated. This kind of garbage goes on and on everywhere!  While I was listening to a "missionary itinerant preacher" in Highland Park I remember him talking about a Christian School in the South Pacific.  He said, "The school is doing a great work!" "But they don't have enough teachers!"  He then went on a rant about "The harvest is great, but the laborers are few" So I decided to write a letter to the administrator and volunteer my services.  He wrote back, "I'm sorry but we have no need for any teachers"  'Where did you hear this?"  After returning from a MT Team with the assembly, I read about an outreach (I participated in) in the prayer calander.  Yet from what I remember as a debate with 3-4 muslims in a park I read "100 Muslims listen to the Gospel!"  "the saints fed and preached to a group of 100 muslims in the park on blah...blahh...blah... Again who can you trust???? (Don't say Jesus O.K. he's in heaven)

David - RE. G. V. Matthai, whom Steve and I met through GG in 1970, he is not at all a fan of GG, but he is a faithful follower of Bakht Singh, who was a very well-known evangelist and church planter in India until his death a few years ago. G. V. was always in charge of Bakht Singh's west coast speaking schedule during his yearly visits to the Indian churches in the U. S. When Bakht Singh's followers speak of a "great work" they don't mean large in numbers or even something very active; to them, it's great because it's carrying on the legacy of Bakht Singh.

Steve and I got together with G. V. and Maryama Matthai in the early '90's, and were told an interesting anecdote about GG (with whom G. V. had attended Biola). Bakht Singh was arriving in Orange County and was scheduled to speak at one of the Indian groups that night. GG volunteered to pick him up and bring him to the meeting. Instead of taking him to the meeting, GG took him to his house. G. V. called GG, inquiring where Bakht Singh was, and saying that there were a lot of people gathered waiting to hear him speak. GG said that Bakht Singh was resting and would not be attending the meeting. Instead of taking him the to the Indian meeting, GG brought him to the Fullerton Assembly! So we all were given the impression that our group was such a wonderful work of God that Bakht Singh wanted to visit, when in reality, he had no such intention and was basically hijacked by GG, who wanted the feather in his cap that the well-known Bakht Singh had come to visit his "great work".

If you get involved in any ministry for the wrong reasons (anything other than an conviction that God wants you involved), your labor will probably end in dissapointment.
Even when you are convinced that God wanted you to serve, you will always find wolves and unfaithful brethren in the midst. In fact, part of the lesson of earthly ministry is to learn to trust God and Him alone.



Did you get hold of someone in responsibillity and ask for an explanation of the blatant msirepresentation?
I am well aware that much of what went on in the assemblies was not challenged as no one wanted to suffer the consequences. This in the kind of thing that those in leadership must have over time learned to accept and justify. No different from the "heavenly deception" of the Krishna folk




You have actually answered you own question, David.
Who else can you trust?
After I left the assemblies I became involved with the C & MA and gave way to another kind of spiritual pride.
I loved that organization, and the godly witness of men like Ravi Zecharias and Sunder Krishnan.
The missionary work of C &MA is second to none, in terms of the quality of the people it sends out.
Imagine my shock at discoverng they also had in a place of authority a lying, deceitful, avaricious and unethical district superintendent.
A man responsible for the destruction of several churches in the Midwest.(some of you who think you do don't know the half of it...)
Even though I left, this in no way impugns the entire organization; God is fatihful and will restore all things. Of that I am certain.
That theory about infiltration may not be all that far fetched...
Verne

p.s Margaret's anecdote about Geftakys is telling. He apparently got his start by associating himself with people of established reputation. He continued his influence by employing the same trickery.
I feel so sorry for those who aided in his legitimization. What a horrible way to be used and an awful legacy to leave...

Wasn't there some story about Bakht Singh coming to Fullerton and pronouncing some kind of judgment on the place??!!


Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.   

Thanks Margaret for the information shared.  Have you ever seen the movie, "The Apostle" with Robert Duval?  I think it is a telling example of a dysfunctional psychosis prevelent in American culture. The apostle is GG  but also every "Minister" to some degree. I think Cliff's disapointment was in the exagerrated numbers/contacts/lifechanging stories. Not as you have suggested. But please feel free to contact Cliff. He is at Westminister Bible Chapel. As I have said already G.V. was not being open and honest before his "friends". I always sense something secretive about him and I found out.


                              "A vulgar and crude man is more to be trusted than a religious and pretentious one!"

                                                                                                    Benjamin Franklin

                                                   

Folks,


Hmmmm....all the ministers are crazy.   :o

You've just gotta love them liberals.  They're so.....so......sensitive.   ;)


Thomas Maddux

David,

You do bring forth good questions to discuss.  I don't think you can bring anecdotal situations (I know this corrupt guy here and this hypocrite there) and extrapolate it to all ministers, but it is true that being a professing Christian and minister does not always mean an upright person.  I am sure you would enjoy Barna's research that sees very little statistical difference morally between professing believers and non-believers in many areas.

Is there anyone you can trust?

I think it is like the situation anywhere.  You trust people who prove trustworthy over time.  I know Christians and ministers who I can completely trust - they are humble, others-centered, and wholly upright in their actions.  I’ve worked with these people and see how they make decisions and do business.  I've known others who are disasters waiting to happen and this becomes evident over time as well.

I think part of the problem is the entrepreneurial nature of Christianity.  Anyone can become a pastor, missionary, teacher, etc.  If you or I wanted to go out without credentials and we could convince enough people to buy into what we are doing, we can have our own church or mission organization.  A self-serving person with enough motivation can easily fake his or her way through seminary.  It all comes down to the integrity of the individual, not a group as a whole.

I always thought Jesus spoke to this with the parable of the wheat and the tares.  God sows wheat and the enemy weeds and they won’t be separated until final judgment.  Until then, the world of professing believers can be a mixed bag.

-Dave

Tom should I bother to argue with you again??  The same guy who defends Detrich Bonhoeffer's attempts to murder Adolph Hitler but chastizes me for threatening GG?  But for the sake of others I will defuse the misquote.  Of course not all ministers are crazy. Yet all on this BB would agree that Americans do have this continual love/hate relationships with Elmer Gantry. Tom save your energy on someone else. As far as I am concerned I am through with you.

Law and Order airs true-to-life stories.  A couple of episodes were about young men who were violated by a big-brother figure but they (the young men) remain 'loyal' to their big-brother.  The acceptance and kindness that came with the package of contact with the big-brother was worth the 'cover up' of the violation.

Interesting commentary on human nature eh??

Marcia

No David, I really wouldn't recommend it.   Its not your strong suit.


You really don't see the difference between  resisting a man who gave the orders to set up a system that murdered at least 12 milliion people, then started a war that killed 50 million, and threatening violence against an old man who made you feel bad.

 :o :o :o


OK, but you did say:



Suit yourself.

Thomas Maddux

It is not for me to say whether George is worse than Hitler or not.
I will tell you this though Tom.
The Biblical assessment of George Geftakys' sin is far more serious than "making David Mauldin feel bad".
It seems to me that you trivialise the awful transgression of this man by presenting it in those seeemingly dismissive terms.
Verne

Verne,

I am not trying to trivialize GG's sin and abuse of God's people.

Believe me, I suffered enough of it.

But I have consistently argued since this board began that all of us chose to be there and to accept the abuse.

In other words, we were kept there by our own lack of understanding of the Bible, lack of clear thinking, lack of self knowledge,  and failure to apply plain old common sense.  Large numbers of other people took a look at GG and said, "Not me".

What I am saying is that there was a VERY large component of personal responsibility in what happend to us.  I don't really believe anyone can recover completely from the GG experience until they have faced this.

George only had a degree of control of information and some skill at psychological manipulation.  He didn't have any SS troops with bayonets to keep us in the compound by threats of death.

The fact is Verne, is that most people hate freedom!!!!   :o   

Oh, they want the ability to kick back when they want to, but BIG decisions are scary.

It is soooooooo much easier to let some "father figure" make your decisions for you...especially if he has convinced you that he speaks for God.

But the Bible clearly says that mature adulthood in Christ is the goal of all ministry.  But it FELT so much better to just follow along.   And we DECIDED to do that.

Notice how some folks left GG after the fall, and went into other legalistic groups like the Bible church in the Valley?

They are still looking for the same thing.   

My point is, WE bear much of the responsibility for what happened to us.  There are literally hundreds of churches and groups that function in a manner similar to the assembly.  We just happened to hook up with this one.  But the hook found a place to grip us, didn't it.

Until we deal with the "hook" in ourselves, we cannot be healed.   Just saying "GG was evil" over and over doesn't change anything.  He was.  No problem there.

The issue is,"How have I changed?"

Thomas Maddux

I understand Tom. Some of us were stronger than others no question and departed ere the  final conflagration.
There will always be weaker brethren who easily fall prey to wolves and remain in their clutches until and unless God in His mercy intervenes. No wonder the Lord was so moved (powerful term as you know) when he saw the sheep without a shepherd.
Not only is there a need for us to grow up in Christ and learn to accept responsibility for our own decisions, but it is also true that as long as the Chief Shepherd tarries, there will always be a need for those willing to stand against the likes of Geftakys and warn the unwary flock. That in my view, weighs as heavily in the divine plan as our acquiring the wisdom and maturity to avoid the snare of such fowlers...
Verne

Just some thoughts on the matter.

Many of us were new believers when we "came into fellowship" and thus fresh ground for indoctrination.  We did not know anything else, or else that which we knew before was then labelled as being less spiritual than what we had.  I agree that, generally speaking, we were prone to to that which the assembly provided for us.

IMO, the evil of the assembly was akin to that of Hitler.  The psychologial manipulation was such that it held us in bondage.  Even many of those that left prior to GG's excomm... remained in bondage and only found deliverance after the opportunity presented itself via the website and this BB.

Yes, I have acknowledged my responsibility, but the effects of assembly life still linger.  E.g. while we were committed to fellowship we sacrificed our family connections.  And now, try as much as we can, the family is not so quick to fully integrate us.  It is not their fault; they have just gotten used to doing things without us.
I did not lose what others have lost.

George's SS troops came under a different title.  No, they did not have bayonets to keep us in the compound by threats of death, but they might as well have.  The damage to the souls of men and women is no small matter.

I do not hold a grudge against any former/present leader or wannabee, but I can say that one had to compromise one's conscience big-time to remain a leader or worker for George.  George did not have to visit every assembly, he only needed his 'faithful' ones to do so.  GG was comfortable with visiting Ottawa and Calgary once a year.  He visited Estevan even less, but his servants were sent there to do his will.

I am interested in your opinion on my comments.

God bless,
Marcia

The language that God uses in matters of spiritual wickedness is not the language of "compassion" and "forgiveness", it is the language of divine judgment.

...and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the Lord.

 For if God spared not the angels that sinned...

I know some people tire of my saying this, but the great tragedy of George Geftakys was the way he used others to establish his legtimcacy with the vulnerable. He was, according to his enablers, "The Lord's Servant".
As to the lingering effects of this perverse spirit, how interesting that there are still some, who in the face of the most execrable conduct, demand that we extend acceptance and sanction to people of evil deportment. This is the same spirit of compromise and defilement that permitted the Geftakys legacy to survive decades.
Think about the implications.
Think about what the Word of God says that men of God ought to be!
How is this possible??!!
Tom has one thing right. The critical question is how have we changed?
For those who have not learned at this point that there can be no compromise with spiritual wickedness, time in the lodge was wasted...
Verne
p.s in my opinon, the most dangerous and despicable people are those who instead of admitting who Geftakys was and what he did, continue to rummage like pigs thorough the charred remains of God's summary judgment of that unholy era, enjoining us to adorn ourselves with, and embrace what God has so clearly rejected... :'(

p.p.s Marcia is absolutely right on the money. Several people who served with Geftakys are good friends.
Many of them I respect. One of them I took a missionary trip with.
That does not in any way change the harsh reality. If you served with this man, and particularly if you remained, you were compromised spiritually...

Hitler is our culture's figurehead for evil.  If a movie wants to show that someone is a bad guy, make him a Nazi.   If you don't like your political opponent, make him out to be Hitler.

The problem with the constant comparison to Hitler is that it doesn't show intensity of magnitude.  Acting out evil is on a continuum.  So George might be like Hitler in the same way that star basketball player Bobby Jones of Parkway Elementary school is like Michael Jordan or like my Ford Taurus is like a leer jet.  Certainly, there are similarities, but there are many extreme differences as well.  Somehow I think George would have stopped short of preaching that we should exterminate an entire ethnic group.

I think Tom is right in this sense:  I found it much more healing and profitable to think about my background and upbringing and figure out what attracted me to the Assembly as opposed to trying to figure out the "evil dudes" that kept me there.

My closest friendships are with ex-assemblyites, though I have made some new good friends at church.
Ex-assembly leaders, especially those who came to their senses and left before GG's excomm..., have much to offer us re. recovery from our assembly abuse.
What gets me is those cowards who are in "exile" because they are afraid that AB posters are going to bombard them with flyers or picket their homes.  Kind of reminds me of the hireling who flees when the heat is on.


Good perspective.  Thanks.

No, George did not need to preach extermination of ethnic groups.  He did however indoctrinate us to believe that we had the one true vision and that leaving fellowship was akin to leaving the Lord.  What Hitler did on a physical level, Geftakys did on a spiritual level.

God bless,
Marcia

Tom, I don't think you can make a blanket statement with this one.

I think a caveat is in order.
There are a number of folk formerly associated with George Geftakys, who in my view have completely cleared themselves in the matter. One of them is Tom Maddux.
I could barely contain myself a few weeks ago when someone came onto this BB and despite all the man has said and done since threw that back in his face.
I want to make it abundantly clear that what I say about the leadership formerly associated with Geftakys must not be applied to those men who have made things right.
For people to talk about compassion and forgiveness, and still excoriate those who have clearly repented of their involvement is wrong. We should not accept that from anybody.
If you defend Geftakys and the abomination he erected. I am your sworn enemy...believe it...



The harshest language in the Bible is not diercted at mass murderers, it is directed at those beings, whether angelic or human, who knew better, yet by their unholy and wicked conduct caused the destruction of others...think about it...whether fallen angels are false prophets, my Bible does not offer either an olive branch...


Verne

Hi Everyone!

  Very important discussion here with some very good points being made on either side of this issue of "evil in Leadership."

  The question of "GG's evil", and does it deserve our consideration, should not be seen as just an attempt to shift the blame from our own foolishness to the Assembly, or as a means to achieve victim status.

  As Jesus, Paul, etc. demonstrated there is "The Spirit of error", as well as," The Spirit of Truth", to consider when trying to properly judge the question of good and evil.

  In other words, there are certain teachings/practices in religion that take on a machine like process that mislead and dominate lives.

  While it is certainly necessary to evaluate what it was in me that allowed me to become a cog in that machine, we must also learn to avoid  becoming a part of a similar Assembly operation, like the Bible church in the Valley that Tom mentioned.  This will mean that we consider how abusive churches operate as systimized error.

  The absolute bedrock of cults, abusive churches, Phariseeism, and religious groups gripped by the wrong spirit is an arrogant refusal to be entreated.

  Dave M. started this discussion with a mention of instances of the moral failures of Christian leaders, but this does not describe "the spirit of evil", just the moral failure of a particular individual.

 For a system of evil to develop from such a failure a means of cover-up needs to be constructed so that the leader can continue in power ( evil systems seek power and effective domination of as many members as they can).

  Jesus did describe his children as "sheep" and this is not a flattering description, as they were often wandering, dumb, needing a shepherd, or being eaten by wolves.  So it would seem that Tom's generaliztion re. "the fear of freedom" is probably an accurate one; we desperately need a Good Shepherd!!

  Jesus' angst and blame was directed toward evil religion as a developed system that did victimize "sheep", and never against the deceived and abused little one.  

  Yes, we must admit we were "foolish" to be led astray, but most of us were innocent/sincere in our willingness to be led down the garden path.  

   I don't think that Jesus' solution to the above problem is for these victimized sheep to learn how to become "self actualized critical thinkers" who are able to transform their easily suckered attitudes into one that is resistant to domination.  We can become so "critical" in our thinking we can become totally jaundized in our views.

  If you are a generally easy going, and a well intentioned person who tends to "believe the best," you probably will continue to have that personality.

 So, if the kind of self evaluation we involve ourselves in is centered on "trying to identify what it was that was in me that allowed my victimization", we probably will be disapppointed with our progress in building up our character.  We could become like David M. and just reject all faith in Christ as being the work of charlatans seeking to take advantage of us.

  There are strong minded/willed individuals who despise "the sucker that is born every minute", and the weakness of a cult member.  They feel these people need to "take responsibility for their own mistakes and stop blaming others for their weaknesses, or shifting blame to former leaders."

  Jesus stated that false religion could "make" monsters, and "offend" little ones', and this places the onus on the false use of religious authority.  The victim submits due to their inncorrect belief that this power is from God and they obey based on a sincere desire to follow God.

  Each individual will need specialized help in finding recovery, but to truly lift one damaged by false religion we can't expect that all former members will be able to transform their personalities via reflection on their own weakness and attempts to change that aspect of their souls.

  Honesty is an integral part of a healthy Christian life, not because self introspection leads to holiness, but because it should lead to putting all our of hope in God's love for us.  

  One thing that God's love for me means is that he "hates" the evil that wounded my soul and that I have a right to be very angry with those that do these evil things.  God is not angry or seeking to blame the victims of abuse for their foolishness.

                                           God Bless,  Mark C.

  

  

      

 

I'm not sure you can say this Verne.  Pretty much everyone falls into this category to one degree or another.

Certainly there have been countless thousands who once were wicked sinners, against God, who repented.  Isn't that an olive branch?

Brent

There is a sin unto death.
Clearly all of us are sinners and  every sinner who has repented, has been forgiven.
This is where it gets dicey Brent.
The Bible clearly identifies categories of creatures for whom there will be no forgiveness.
By extension I conclude that for them repentance is not possible,  - fallen angels for example.
Hebrews is even more specific is saying the redemption has not been made for them so even if they repented, they have no advocate.
Does this mean that God is not love?
No. It just means his redeeming love does not extend to fallen angels.
Even those who argue that Christ died for the sin of every man must recognize this awful category of men described in Scipture. The Lord said their father was the devil himself.
The language Christ uses against religious hypocrisy is terrifying.
James warns about harsher judgment for those recognized as leaders.
Peter and Jude likens the punishment of false teachers/prophets to that reserved for fallen angelic beings.
The category is separate. It is distinct. We all DO NOT fall into it.
Verne

p.s I am afraid that those who fail to see this will never agree with, nor understand my own passion about all this...

Mark has unearthed something here that has bothered me for a long time and I did not regconize it until he said this.
The talk about us all looking for some kind of "father figure" and being "gullible" can indeed lead to a kind of spiritual cynicism. One would almost be led to believe by an over-preoccupation with our own culpability that there are no Christian leaders worthy of real trust and genuine affection and loyalty.
I think  this is what deep down burns most fiercely in my gut.
Christ intended His shepherds to be like Him!
It is right and proper that we admire, we honor, we  imitate that which is right and holy and pure in the ones God raises up as examples to the flock.
Given the legitimacy of such a disposition, it is a thing of unpseakable horror, that the love that would accrue to God's true servants, as a direct result of our love for God Himself, should have been appropriated by a vile man like Geftakys.
It makes one feel like a used whore. It was indeed spiriual harlotry -  sickening beyond comprehension.
There are faithful servants of Jesus Christ walking the earth today; ones in whom the familial resemblance is unmistakable.
Let us not become spiritual cynics...!
Verne


That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises

   ...whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation..

I guess I am not completely following the thinking here.  Of course, Jesus isn't asking everyone to become the Bible Answer man and have every rational argument to prevent falling into any deception out there, but I don't think that is what is meant by going back and understanding why we came into the Assembly.  Doing this is not putting the blame on the sheep, it is helping the sheep make better decisions next time.


Wouldn't it be beneficial for such a person to acknowlege that he has such a personality to he could "catch himself" relinquishing the authority of his life over to another?  If he thinks about it and identifies this as a problem, then he might have a chance to do some soul searching or get some counseling before he blindly goes off and surrenders himself to the Bible church in the valley.

On a personal note, I have attributed my draw to the Assembly to the fact that I have a non-confrontive personality and I am so distrustful of my own person (to the point that I feel physically terrified in confrontation) that I naturally defer to those who have stronger authority - these feelings were beat into me by my over-controlling mother and a passive dad who never gave me any personality tools to defend myself.  Identifying these problems haven't cured them (I still struggle with confrontation and it has caused me problems in my parenting).  However, in idenfiying this personality weakness, I have been able to compensate with my strengths and learn from role models so that I don't keep falling into the same patterns.

General note:
In all this discussion, no one is saying that George or the leadership don't have an account to give.  George's attracting us to be our "father figure" and then turning around and living solely for himself indeed falls under the general heading of "it is better for a millstone to be tied around his neck".  May God have mercy upon him.  But, that doesn't preclude doing some self-examination.  After all, most people saw through George from day 1.  We didn't.  Why?

 And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead.

God's judgment of evil has a repercussive effect. Those of you who have studied the passage know that the Passover is often incorrectly interpreted as God's "passing over" the Isaraelites during the Egyptian night of terror.
It does not mean that. A more precise sense is that God "hovered" over His people, so protecting them from the rampaging destroyer. If there is a place where people should feel relatively safe and protected, it is in the company of men and women of God.
It is interesting that the servants of Pharaoh begun to get the message much sooner than he did.
If you read bwtween the lines, it was in fact they that made it clear that they had had enough and probably prevailed upon him...

 And the Egyptians were urgent upon the people, that they might send them out of the land in haste; for they said, We be all dead men.

The signs of fall-out were everywhere in the assemblies.
The casualities were by any measure stunning.
Even those folk in leadership felt the stroke personally
Look at what happened to so many of the most precious of our possessions, our off-spring.
It is the responsibility of godly men an women in this world, so far as God enables them, to restrain evil.
If we fail in this, the consequences may extend to more than just the perpetrators...
Verne


When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

Hi Verne!

  If one's church experiences, and relationships with church leaders, are mostly unpleasant memories it's easy to understand why such would be wary of church folks---" once burned twice shy!"

  Some Christians seem to think the cure for this bad experience is to analyze one's own weak character and figure out how to make myself resistant to more of the same.  Not a bad idea, but there's more to recovery than this.

  As an example: if I'm the kind of person who is very impressionable, compliant, ready to accept what a person says as sincere, not sure of my own opinions, and generally one who does not like to argue or criticize others (this is me, btw  ;)) I'm supposed to try and alter this my personality.

 Now, there are good and bad aspects of the above personality, and if I try and perform self psychotherapy on myself I will end up constantly falling back into my natural manner of responding w/o really helping myself.

  To avoid becoming like David M., where one rejects the Gospel, it is more important to identify the errrors promulgated in the Assembly, vs. the weakness in my own personality.  I'm not saying that there is no benefit to understanding our own psychology, but that self introspection by itself is not a basis for getting better.

  I see recovery as a discovery of a true and strong faith in Christ that enjoys all the benefits of an eternally secure blessed relationship with our loving God.   This gift based relationship is not strengthened by the trolling through my soul musing on what a foolish and weak person I must have been to fall for GG's deceptions.  God does not hold this against me, and I don't think we should kick ourselves over it either.

   Cynicism is a reaction (actually an over-reaction) to being disappointed.  It causes us to instantly react in an negative emotional manner to anything that looks or sounds like our former bad experiences.  Cynicism sets up a standard for others behavior (or our own) of perfection that can never be reached-- as in, "all Christians are hypocrites."  This means that the cynic can avoid ever getting into an environment where they can be hurt again.

    If we blur the distinction between good and evil by suggesting that GG was not all that evil, just a little misguided, or that the destructive power of the Assembly was not all that bad we create the largest block to avoiding becoming cynical.

  Why?  Because blurred distinctions can only lead to the conclusion that God is ambivalent re. one's behavior---- as in, "God loves GG just as much as he loves the sisters he seduced!"  "after all, we all sin and GG couldn't have gotten away with this if these sisters weren't willing" >:( :'(   Do we really think that Jesus puts just as much blame on the deceived as the deceiver?

   Jesus was not ambivalent re. false religion, and was scathing in his denouncement of these.  His rebuke was centered on their abusive practices, and he strongly defended the victims of this evil.   His outrage should be our outrage and his defense of the victims should also be our defense of victims!

   There are different kinds of sin, but not all sin becomes what the Pharisees created in their false religious system.  Yes we all sin, but most of us will never become cult leaders who deceive and damage God's little ones.  GG has not only done evil he has become evil himself due to his denial of his sin and continuance in the same.

   If we can't make the above clear distinctions then we will be very confused in trying to figure out what God really thinks about me and my Christian life.  However, God does care very much about how we treat one another, and loving behavior is good and abusive behavior is bad!  When abusive behavior becomes the continual daily practice of a group we can judge that the group has become evil.  When a group, though they may have many faults, practice loving behavior we can conclude they are Jesus' disciples.

                            God Bless,  Mark C.

    

  

I am the opposite. When I became an elder at the last church I attended, I went to the other extreme because of knowing myself so well. I really went out of my way to defer to others in leadership exacly because I knew that in the natural I am the kind of guy to take the bull lby the horns. Situations about which I had personal misgivings and unease, I would often be hesitant to speak too agressively. No doubt there were men around Geftakys with the same kind of attitude.
I must say in retrospect, I made some poor decisions. God makes us the the way he does for a reason and we all have our particular contribution. If we are truly walking with Him and being led by His Spirit, personality should not matter that much. There are times when the exact need of the situation is someone to boldy speak up and state the obvious.
If everyone is wondering about how it's going to be preceived and what other people are going to think, it is amazing what can ultimately be tolerated or excused.

 
Anyone who subsequently rejects the gospel of Jesus Christ never truly knew Him. Period.
I don't care if the devil himself grabbed you by the throat...

 
Mark this is what I find so maddening. People who seem bent on mitigating the enormity of what Geftakys did, and somehow turning this around to accuse those he damaged and who are rightfully incensed. These are the same kind of folk, who would have in the midst of the abuse advised the suffering to "love" , "forgive" and "trust God for the leadership" and remind us that "everybody is a sinner". The failure of these folk to make clear distinctions as to the nature and heinousness of George's transgression convinces me that they are not be taken at all seriously.


  I would go further. The inability to make clear distinctions results in much  more than confusion. It aids and abets the carnage of the wicked.
Verne

p.s I once sat in a meeting with two officials of the CMA discussing some serious problems with one their own.
One of them commented to me over the strong stand that I had personally taken:

"Christians are the only people that shoot their wounded".

This is a Roman Catholic mentality that resulted in disgraceful policies in their handling of blatant sin.
When it comes to the sheep, spare no expense for their recovery...
When it comes to shepherds, perhaps they should not be shot - just put out to pasture.
God derserves the best we can offer...

Dave and Verne,

  The reason that you are not following how my comments fit into the topic is because I have been gone all week and have just dropped into the conversation without knowing the whole context.

  I am not responding directly to the postings on this thread, rather to emails I recently received that deal with personal responsiblity, and victimization, that have somewhat to do with the discussion here.  I apologize for not being clearer by providing a better context for the posts.

  I agree with both you and Verne that we need to understand our weaknesses and must work against quiet acquiesence in giving into their domination of our lives, but is another thing altogether to put all the burden for being deceived and abused on the victim vs. the victimizer, and it is to this that I speak.

  There are those who believe that GG is not to be blamed at all and all former Assembly members should just admit they were idiots and take responsibility for their following him.  They think that we are all equally sinful in God's eyes and could just as easily fall into the same kind of hypocrisy that GG did. "Just go out and have a beer with George and let him know that you're his friend and he'll come around" my recent emailer suggested.

  Understanding that the Assembly is an evil system is not meant to help us become "bible answer men", or an effort at revenge against GG, rather it allows us to to recover what was lost in that system: my relationship with God,  and my personal dignity and worth as a child of God. (not in God's eyes, but in my own.)

   Jesus and the Apostles (especially Paul) spent a great deal of time talking about deceivers and evil religious pretenders in regard to the damage they can inflict on innocent folks. In Galatians Paul warned that a certain belief system could "separate us from life in Christ."  Paul also warned "the strong" in Romans that they could "destroy" the faith of another brother.

  I do not believe this was talking about the loss of salvation, but the loss of the experience of that life and faith in time and space.  In other words we are saved, but feel like we're in hell! :'( 

  Again, we are mostly sheep like, not soaring predators  ;), and the means to help former members will probably not include teaching them to "buck-up and get on with their lives" by their own intestinal fortitude.  Some have had their guts kicked in for so long they have no strength left for such self renovation. :'( :'( :'(

  Inner strength is promised via the communication of God's very personal interest and care for the wounded pilgrim.  We should all attempt to be those who offer that cup of cold water, or washing of feet, to these needy souls.  I know that is the desire of  Dave, Verne, Tom, and most who post here, so forgive my tirade against the emailer via this thread.

                                              God Bless,  Mark C.

 


 

Hi Mark! I had no problem at all following your post and in fact was very much in agreement with your perspective.
Critical thinking skills were not what was lacking in those who remained in leadership with George, it was character... ???
For many of the rank and file, it was probably a combination of ignorance, fear and outright deception. The first and last factors were certainly true in my case. I once thought GG a godly man! (Boy is it liberating to admit that!!  :))
This as you indicated is not in any way to simply make us the victims or to excuse the culpability of leaders.
The assembly was not only a proving ground for God's own in my view, (we can after-all look at those who made wise choices), it also presents a marvellous opportunity to learn from the experience and become more the kind of people God would have us to be. Just my two cents... :)
Verne

Mark,

Inner strength is promised through the power of the Holy Spirit.  If you are a Christian, you already have that power within you.  Believing what the Bible says about your present gifts and position and exercising faith through the power of the Holy Spirit within is the only way of victory in any aspect of the spiritual life.

You seem to disagree!   :o

You have made many statements like this:

I don't think anyone on this board disagrees with that.  The question is, "How do I access this in my times of need?" 

If someone is discouraged now, how do they encourage themselves in the Lord?  If they are fearful, how do they become strong?   If they are tempted to be bitter, how do they purify their hearts?   

I don't mean theoretically, I mean practically.  What does one do when the evil is upon them?

Please be specific.

Thomas Maddux

Hi Tom!

  Thanks very much for your response and questions to the point re. "inner strength" and I will try to answer as best I can.

  If I understand your position correctly, you believe that we can actualize the Spirit in our lives via our wills that have been regenerated at the new birth. 

   Faith then, as based on the above belief, is trust in the fact that I have a new nature that can only find practical expression as I "reckon" it so by "taking steps of faith" which release the already present HS in me.

  You are correct in asking how my views on "inner strength" find practical and specific meaning for our lives, because when we ask these questions they immediately point to great difficulties with what I believe is your position (as I've tried to summarize above).

  GG taught a similar definition of faith, as do others such as Solomon, wherein the believer needs to learn to "identify" themselves with Christ via "taking the place", "reckoning dead", and etc. 

   Personally, and as we can see in the lives of GG and other Assembly members, these attempts at "identification" had two results:
 
1.) The hypocrite:  GG and other top dogs who simply lived in deep denial of their own deep struggles with sin and weakness.

2.) The depressed:  These were those who constantly streamed forward to the front after a meeting "seeking counsel" for why they couldn't seem to "lay hold" on the victory for their lives.

  There's more to "inner strength", as I've tried to demonstrate repeatedly from the NT, than just the facts of our salvation, a keen mind for discovering a process in the bible that guides us to "victorious living", and a strong will.

  Eph. 3, as I've tried to show, tells us that God's Spirit brings inner strength to our lives, not through our abilities to actualize our faith, but via the knowledge that God loves me.

   The difference in the former view of how the Spirit works, and the latter, is that one is based on my ability to somehow arrange my inner life and assert my will, while the the other is trust in God's atttitude toward me.  One is faith in my ability to make a process work in my life and the other is trust in a real person with whom I have a personal relationship with.

   Personal relationships do not operate with the kind of precision that some lay out for a Christian life based on a series of principles (even very true principles).  This is because we are human and this means our inner life consists of more than reason and will.

  Specifically, when I am tempted (inner conflict) to sin, and attempt to "take the place" and find that sin overcomes my will (and when this happens repeatedly) I become defeated.  I start to wonder why I just can't seem to "get the victory" like other Christians.  "Maybe," I will think," the bible says I'm a new creature, and yet I fail ; so either I'm personally defective or unsaved?!"

  Specifically, on the other hand, when I'm tempted to sin, instead of analyzing how I failed to access the Spirit in my life, I come to God and a conversation is started.  I realize that God is near and very concerned about my struggle and instead of getting depressed I become encouraged that his love and friendship are sure.  I also realize that there is a depth in me that prevents me from always understanding the forces within that seek to control me. 

   From the above relationship I find that there is a growing strength in my inner life: ie, love, joy, peace: vs. the gnawing self doubt, feeling of distance, and self loathing that the "reckoning faith" approach has brought me.

  Those who rely on reason and will alone to live the Christian life can run into the difficulty of becoming control freaks and perfectionists.  There's a whole lot going on inside of us that we don't understand, and God alone does---- "Cast all your care on Him, for he cares for you"--- try and think about this verse w/o including an emotional component to your faith and it just would not make any sense.

   Inner strength is not the absence of sinful tendencies, nor can these be "reckoned dead" by us, for Rom. 6 is dealing with one's behavior (outer life), but we still do not live in anxious fear over these sinful desires (Rm. 8:15).  We are to "put to death" sinful behaviors, but I challenge any Christian to honestly suggest that they can irradicate the sinful nature in their lives.

  The Spirit does not overpower our inner life and fill us with a perfect Christ like psyche.  The Spirit does recognize the depths of our inner need and makes intercession for us with "groanings" which we can't find a rational explanation to make on our own.  Groanings?  Sounds pretty emotional to me. 

  The above paragraph shows the Spirit's action in a specific and practical need as regards the inner life.  When it comes to the outer life (behavior, attitudes) as regenerated Christians we do need to exert our wills and do what is right.  We need to stop hoping in our abilities as a regenerated Christian and put all our hope in the God who wants to have a close personal relationship with us.

                                            God Bless,  Mark C.

   

This is one of the very best questions ever posed on this BB.
Unless we can give a cogent answer to this query, all our discourse is so much sound and fury.
I think Mark has already made some excellent points about the results of just human effort, well-intentioned though it may be..
It is my fervent hope that many would take a shot at this. Even some of you lurking in the shadows for I think after all is said and done, Tom's query is what it all boils down to.
I want to take a shot, and I am not going to talk about theory.
I still often fail as a Christian.
I still often discover in myself, attitudes, speech, disposition that does not comport with the new life in Christ.
I think that is the first and most important consideration.
Anyone trying to make the case to me that as a Christian they have arrived at some state of holiness that precludes sin and failure has lost my attention before they even got started.
The Bible calls them a liar.

Having said that, I think we could sum up Tom's query in a broad and general way by asking:

How does one see the fruit if the Spirit in one's life?

There is much bubbling up in my heart on this but I really want to hear from some other folks.

I will simply say this by way of encouraging our thinkg - What is the nature of fruit?
Verne

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Thanks Vern, Tom, is it true that you nominated G.G. to be elder???  Your daughter told me you did. (I could have misunderstood her.) Tom, you were "A leading Brother" in the assembly for many years. Why didn't you stop G.G. whan It was your responsiblity? Had you done your duty perhaps many people would have avoided his abuses?? Steve Irons is a man who demonstrates a brokeness and repentance for his role as a former leader in the assembly. Yet, I have never heard, read anywhere that you have taken any blame.   On the contrary you jump in where you are not appreciated. You make statements meant to hurt and confuse people. Tom remember it was I who told you about this B.B.? I called you to tell you that Rachel Geftakys would like to the name of the woman G.G. commited adultery with. (I only knew of the elder who confronted him.) You told me that "No" you weren't giving me the name. You then told me in your polite manner that "Rachel needs a counselor!) and "By!"  How is it Tom that you have controle of this B.B.??? Your great leadership skills???

I for one have seen Tom's expression of regret for the part he played David.
I also agree that Steve Irons has been a marvellous example in the way he has responded and taken responsibility for his part in all this.
David I don't know what you think about the Son of God.
If you know anything at all about Him, there is nothing you or I can say that will add to or lessen the severity of the reponsibility the men around Geftakys will face when they stand in His presence.  :'(
For those who have clearly repented, and I think Tom is one of them, they deserve our forgiveness, our acceptance, and our love. The pain of whatever responsibility these men bear for their deception by Geftakys really ought not to be exacerbated by our throwing it back in their faces. I hope what I say does not offend you as I have really been enjoying your participation and thoughtful and thought-provoking queries. God bless.
Verne

Mark,

This is my response to the last post you addressed to me.

Although I could wax theological, I think Rick Warren has expressed the basic idea pretty well. 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From "The Purpose Driven Life" by Rick Warren.  Page 174-176.  I have skipped some material that is just illustrative.

God's part and your part.  Christlikeness is the result of making Christlike choices and depending on his Spirit to help you fulfill those choices.  Once you decide to get serious about becoming like Christ, you must begin to act in new ways.  You will need to let go of some of the old routines, develop some new habits, and intentionally change the way you think.  You can be certain that the Holy Spirit will help you with these changes.  The Bible says, "continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose."

   This verse shows the two parts of spiritual growth; "work out" and "work in".  The "work out" is your responsibility, and the "work in" is God's role.  Spiritual growth is a collaborative effort between you and the Holy Spirit.  God's Spirit works with us, not just in us.

   This verse, written to believers, is not about how to be saved, but how to grow.  It does not say "work for" your salvation, because you can't add anything to what Jesus already did.  During a physical "workout" you exercise to develop your body, not to get a body...

   ...God has given you a new life; now you are responsible to develop it "with fear and trembling."  That means take your spiritual growth seriously...

Changing your autopilot.  To change your life, you must change the way you think.  Behind everything you do is a thought.  Every behavior is motivated by a belief, and every action is prompted by an attitude.  God revealed this thousands of years before psychologists understood it: "Be careful how you think; your life is shaped by your thoughts."

Now, notice Warren's take on the will

This is what happens when you try to change your life with willpower; you say, "I'll force myself to eat less...exercise more...(and heal the damage caused by my assembly experience. My note).  Yes, willpower can produce short-term change, but it creates constant internal stress because you haven't dealt with the root cause.  The change doesn't feel natural, so eventually you give it up...you quickly revert to your old patterns.

   There is a better and easier way: Change your autopilot-the way you think.  The Bible says, "Let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think." Your first step in spiritual growth is to start changing the way you think.  Change always starts first in the mind.  The way you think determines the way you feel, and the way you feel influences the way you act.  Paul said, "There must be a spiritual renewal of your thoughts and attitudes"...

To be like Christ you must develop the mind of Christ.  the New Testament calls this mental shift repentence, which in Greek literally means "to change your mind."  You repent whenever you change the way you think by adopting how god thinks-about yourself, sin, God, other people...and everything else.     


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is illustrative of what I have been saying Mark. 

Thomas Maddux

I guess it is therefore safe to say, based on what you are saying that spiritual growth:
1.Begins with a change in our thinking.
2.Takes time.

A bit of a different perspective from what I was thinking with my fruit paradigm but quite interesting nonetheless.
I see your point. As a man thinketh... as it were... :)
Verne
p.s. I think something wonderful also happens in the realm of the  will as we grow in grace and it has to do with desire

I think that our thinking changes as a result of God's Spirit.  Changed thinking means changed behavior, etc.

While I don't think Rick Warren is at all teaching that our thinking is what is responsible for change, others get confused on this.  It is especially prevalent in non-christian self improvement groups.

The danger with this type of thinking is that some will take it the wrong way, and begin to see themselves as responsible for their lack of holiness, or take credit for their progress.  Afterall, my choices earned me my state in life, right?

Brent

In fact, if I were going to answer Tom original query about dealing with discouragement and the coming of evil to our doorstep I would not have begun with our thinking.
While I understand where Tom is coming from on this Brent, the danger you allude to with this approach is very real.
Tom talked about transformation, renewing of our minds as it were but was not as clear as I hoped about how this is supposed to take place.
Again I would like posit that the place to begin is not with our thinking, but rather with God's. What exactly do I mean by that?
Let me be practical.
It is my personal opinon, that the reason there are so many weak and discouraged Christians today is because of the disregard so many of us have for the Word of God.
I am not talking about seminary study.
I am not talking about diagramming the entire NT.
I am not even talking about learning Hebrew and Greek.
I am talking about simply reading God's word.

We should begin with God's thinking not ours.
If I understand the application of salvation correctly, it is the exclusive domain of the Spirit of God. If I understand my Bible correctly, His primary instrument in the accomplishment of this task is the Word of God.


 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord

Some will immediately point out:
Look how much time we spent in our Bibles in the assemblies and look at what happened!
Read the verse carefully...
Verne

I think you make a very important point about the danger of taking this type of thinking the wrong way; seeking God gets replaced with regiment, the exercise replaces the relationship.  Pride sets in....then comes the fall,  because we want control.
God does something wonderful
Man is drawn to it
Man sticks his hands in it
Man can't figure out where God went

I agree.

Here is a subtlety that I have come to recognize.  In the past, I would "spend time with The Lord," because if I didn't, I would miss out on what God had for me.  If I was faithful, I would get what He had, which was better than what the unfaithful guys got.

I couldn't grow, if I didn't do my part, which is no different than saying I am responsible for my sanctification.  This, of course, is wrong.

Because of the emphasis on AM times, and the Heavenly Ladder, etc.  When I did spend time in the Word, I wasn't beholding the Glory of the Lord so much as desperately trying to "hear His voice." Much more effort was spent trying to repent, get quiet before God, and get a word in season, than meditating on Him.

If I was faithful, I felt good, and had some thoughts to share on Sunday.  If I was unfaithful, I would feel guilty, because someone would come up and say, "How'd the Lord speak to you this AM, brother?"  I would have to dodge the question, because if I was found out to have not been having my AM times, I would be admonished, etc.

It's a far cry from reading the Bible out of a sincere desire!  Some of the best times I had were in Seminars, when I tuned George out and read the text for a while, without realizing I was ignoring God's Servant.  Towards the end, I didn't even take notes, that was cool.

Anyhow, people who know how to work hard, and stick with something do well with the "Change your thoughts change your life" approach to salvation.  (At least they think they are doing well.)

Those who can't seem to get it together are chronically discouraged and live in doubt.

It seems to me that a simple message of Grace, Mercy and Love, the Gospel of Jesus Christ, is the message that people need to hear.  The proud acheivers need it as much as the discouraged failures.

Brent

Guilt is a powerful multi purpose tool of Satan, that can be used to destroy any good thing.
I like what Johnny Cash used to say, "I choose Love" Knowing God loves you is a great motivator.
I think the question to ask ourselves is, Do I REALLY KNOW GOD LOVES ME ?

The question of how it was possible to spend so much time looking at our Bibles and still be so completely deceived and corrupt in the assemblies is a legitimate one. I would like to think about this especially from the perspective of those who were workers and leading brethren. Ask yourself this question:
What happens to the person who continually looks at God's clearly presented standard in His Word, yet continues to engage in conduct, or to be associated with those whose conduct clearly and flagrantly violate that standard?
I think this is the thing that is so hard for some of these folks.

Many if not all of them knew the things taking place were not right!
If they were reading their Bibles they had to know it!

The consequence for being just a hearer and not a doer of the Word is plainly spelled out, namely self-deception!
Verne

A really good preacher will convince you that God loves you.  That's his job, and if he does it well, you'll believe.  I think they call that being an evangelist and a teacher.  We need guys like that.

Verne,

Why did we continue to associate with George, even though we knew things were wrong?  Little by little, some more than others, our consciences were seared.  That's all.

Brent

Dave, I thought you were "through with" me.


No.  GG nominated himself and Steve Irons.


Glad you asked.  I resisted GG more than all the other leading brothers put together.  No one would stand with me. The others, Steve Irons, Mark Miller, Dan Notti, Tim G., Jim Hayman, Keith Walker,  were too busy supporting GG.  This went on for over 10 years.  Secretly they sometimes disagreed with GG.  But they would never confront him.    I did.

Emotionally, they used to beat the hell out of me. I regularly went through things that would probably have given you a nervous breakdown.  Not a single one has ever apologized to me for that.

But, I also was a true believer.  Where could you go if you left...etc. etc.


If you associated with Christians more, you just might know more of what goes on.


If you choose to post anti-Christian foolishness on this public BB, you will get some flak. 

BTW, are you under the impression that your post was appreciated?



People who live in glass houses....


No David, I didn't give you, or anyone else who asked the lady's name.  If these folks wish to come out and declare themselves, that is their choice.

Why should an old lady be exposed and shamed publicly AGAIN?  And that before her husband, children, grandchildren, maybe even great grandchildren by now?  She had to live through it once back when GG was disciplined for his actions by the Plymouth Bretheren. Should she now have to be dragged through all the details again after all these years?

But then...not being a sensitive liberal maybe I don't understand these things as well as you.


Dave, I've got em all fooled.  ;)

Thomas Maddux

I agree Brent. My point was, as you pointed out, that our consciences were not that way in the beginning, but for some they became that way.
The average person did not know a fraction of what workers and leading brothers who saw George up close and personal knew. Samuel told me about how he and Roger would plead with George and even pray with him but how he remained essentially unentratable.

It was the job of those charged with leadership to remove a man like this, no matter what it cost them!!

Tom's comment about the other men does not in the least surprise me.
They are indeed responsible for George could never have lasted as long as he did without their sanction.
They knew him for what he was. They made it their business to try and destroy anyone who dared to oppose this rampaging wolf in the midst.
The authority of the elder does not come from the flock (although they do recognize it), it does not come from the other elders, it does not come from district superintendents, it does not come field directors, it does not come from organizational presidents....

IT COMES FROM THE CHIEF SHEPHERD!


People who behaved the way these men did do not fear Him...
Verne

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers,

I been unable to connect, hence I post this from a library computer.

I’ve only skimmed the recent discussion on this thread due to time constraints.

It looks like MarkC and TomM are basically saying the same thing.

The way we think affects our outlook, attitude, modus operandi (correct expression??).

Our thinking/perspective on God’s love for us changes us in the inner man.

Marcia

THe nonscriptural saying;
"Give a Man a fish, he eats for a day.
Teach a Man to fish, he eats for a lifetime."
I think this can be true in our spiritual lives too.
An unhealthy place of fellowship micro manages and controls it's members lives, resulting in bondage.
A healthy fellowship will teach you how to properly study the Bible and apply it practically to your own life, resulting  in liberty and growth.

I hope you don't mind my edit Mark.
Something strange would happen to people who came under long-term influence of George and Betty akin to a second childhood.
One of the most dramatic personality changes I ever observed was in Bob Ford.
I first met him in the early eighties and remembered him as a rather serious looking and sober kind of guy. I bought my Darby bible from him.
I saw him a number of years later the last time I visited Fullerton (about the time the Irons were really going through it. I remember being stunned at how sad and remote Steve appeared compared to how I remembered him) and I almost did not recognize Bob as the same man. He probably wondered why I stared at him the way I did.
He had morphed into a gum-chewing almost effeminate appearing fellow nothing at all like the rather dignified VP of a company I had encountered a few years ago.
It was terribly sad to observe how he had changed, and not in my view for the better...
Verne "Macho" Carty  ;D

A pastor recently preached, and I agree with him, that the pharisee is such a nice guy that it is difficult to see through his 'good works' to the hypocrisy.
We were all blind following our blind guides.
The fruit and quick collapse of the great work has shown up 'this ministry' for what it really was, corrupt and evil.

Marcia

Do you guys think that the attitude that Brent had ( I had the same one ) Is the same attitude that the prodical sons brother had..... The more I do, the more I should get; the older faithful brother had a problem with the fathers response to his younger brother, but I think even more tragically the faithful son was missing out on really knowing his father.(Luke 15:31) I think he could have asked for almost anything and still been faithful.
 I believe that, 'to obey is better than sacrifice' but you get off track if  you think your works are going to get you more.(Matt 20:1-15)
I think God made it this way on purpose so you can't live the Christian life on cruise control. I believe God wants the relationship first.He's there waiting, if I'm miserable...it's my own fault.

I am sorry to have to tell you this Marcia but we can't even present that as an excuse.
Who is prepared to make the case that Geftakys was a nice guy?!
This is a man who  brutally excoriated the worker wife of someone I know who came to pick him up at the airport in Champaign in the only vehicle they had.
The man was livid.

"Don't you EVER come to pick me up in a car looking like that again, do you hear??!!"

Let the folk around him try to make the case that they never saw this putrid side of the man...
I bet you anything not a single one of them will...The Lord's Servant  huh?
There is more...always flying first class must have been a joy...the Lord's servant needed his rest you know...everybody else had to rough it in economy...


p.s Anybody trying to convince you that George Geftakys was ever anything other than a philandering, self-serving, and hypocritical apostate is stupid...and must assume the same about you...


You don't need me to defend you but I don't mind going on record as saying there is going to be hell to pay( in some ways already has ).
All of us, particularly former leaders, are going to have to face the music of divine scrutiny.
What a time that's going to be and God be merciful to us...
What kind of obstinate, prideful, and unrepentant so-called brother in Christ would not have attempted to make this right long ago??!!
You mean to tell me that not a single one of these players have been willing to say we were wrong and you were right??!! Oh I forgot, they are too busy feeling injured...
More proof of the pudding in my estimation.
I am assuming that you and Steve Irons have already worked this out...no?
Verne

Yeah, I have to agree with Macho Man here.   :) I don't/didn't see GG as a pharisee, either. He wasn't what I'd consider to be a nice man, even from where I sat as a non-"worker" before the "outing" of his philandering, etc.


I find this interesting, too. Could it be that they were so brainwashed into thinking that Tom was the "bad guy" that they can't break out entirely from their fantasy world to apologize to him?

Most of them are just too embarassed.  They don't want to be reminded of what they were involved in, and are busy serving in their new places, or trying to find one.   They were holy, and don't want to be told, or reminded that they were mistaken.

That leads to thinking about why....and that might cause them to conclude that weren't as sincere, or as bold for Christ as they imagine.

I've been through all these emotions and thoughts myself, and so has every truly repentant leader I've met.

Many are of the impression that they barely knew George, etc.  This may be true for some, but not for workers, and certainly not for Itinerate's and full-timers.  Sadly, most of the latter group have not come clean.

Brent

What I observed was the loss of joy in some, (not all)  their self respect was stolen from them.(like they were bigger sinners than the rest of us)
I  clearly remember George in a STL meeting stating that 'He loved to study and was fascinated with the psychology of man'.

David M.

  I need to go to bed, but after quickly reading the thread saw your comments that you made to Tom and had to respond.

  I do appreciate the initial point you raised about "The Topic Of Evil in Leadership" and obviously it has struck a nerve here on the BB, but your last post attacking Tom is out of place.

  Other than Al, I probably know Tom better than most on this BB.  I can still remember waiting for him at Hillcrest Park while he had his bros. meeting (he was my ride back to the Valley every Sunday). 

  On these beautiful summer evenings the windows would be open and I could here Tom getting his, though I could not make out exactly what was being said.  I could tell that one voice, GG's, took control and squashed any rebellion.  >:D

  During the ride back to the Valley Tom looked like a tea kettle on the stove ready to boil over, but he never talked about what went on in those meetings.  Talk about a wounded pilgrim!! :'(------  Tom was definitely not in it for the power, or any other personal perk; he, like many of us, thought he was serving God's purpose

  Though it may seem like Tom and I are involved in the throws of some great debate, I can assure you that I only have great admiration and affection for Tom.  I truly appreciate his views and questions, because I know that he is concerned about me and others here who may read what I post.  That is, he doesn't want me to get out in left field, nor lead others that way either. 

   There are any number of people who e-mail me with questions, challenges, etc. and I find these very helpful to my thinking.  It is another thing altogether, (and speaking of evil), to attempt to "sow discord", which is a very deadly sin.  To put it succinctly: Don't make personal attacks!  If you have a point to make, like this thread as you started it, feel free to try and argue it.

  I know, I know, there are others who do this, and I probably have done it as well in the heat of some argument, but you're way out of control on this one.

  Sometime this week I will try and respond with a further explanation in answer to Tom's latest post to me.  Maybe Tom and I, as Marcia stated, are saying the same thing, and that is the beauty of this venue because we can define our terms and get our thoughts expressed more clearly with each attempt (at least I hope so  ;))

   Chomping at the bit to respond, but I got to get a few hours sleep tonight--------------   God Bless,  Mark C.

It is quite remarkable how looks can be deceiving.
If you had asked me, spiritual novice that I was, I would have said that every one of those brothers mentioned by Tom were strong men spiritually. No one believes that now and they are quite right.
There are some important lessons to be learned here.
Many of the men around Geftakys mistook weakness for humility.
There was the case of the brother in Champaign who was universally deemed unfit for service by his would-be charges.
Complaint after complaint was lodged. At least one worker wrote a letter.
Yet the men serving with him stood around like eunuchs, which they in fact were for he had Betty's blessing.(you know what was in her jars back in Fullerton; if not ask Brent)
It should have been their call and if the flock was indeed their first pirority it would have been dealt with.
Serving with weak men, is like going into battle with a blind paraplegic "watching" your back- can't see nothing can't do nothing! Worse than useless and could get you killed.
I once served in a situation where eight previous elders had left in frustration and some in bitterness.
I did not know this at the time I was recruited and was too stupid to ask the right questions.
That kind of turnover of spiritual leadership, even in a transient community, is quite telling!
The Lord had great mercy on me and He will one day give me His opinon.
Interestingly enough, that the one elder who had remained there all this time with little or no change in the circumstances that led to the departure of so many good men...he is still there, the only one left of the previous entire governing board. Old "faithful" huh?
While I know we are all of one body, when it comes to spiritual things and particularly co-laboring, you have to pick your companions with extreme care...boy did I learn that the hard way! Be picky...be very picky!





If they were brainwashed before, their excommunication of George should have opened up their eyes doncha think?
They did not have to break out of their fantasy world for it literally came crashing down around their heads.
Had I been in that situation, I would have actively sought out any and everyman who had sounded the alarm and repented in dust and ashes, particularly those who were formerly in leadership.
They seemed more interested in shutting down Steve and Margaret's website.
It is still painful to me to think that a man like Samuel could have stooped to that level of connivance.
This would in my view, been the first and most critical step in the process of redemption of their integrity and I certianly think this was possiible. Why would any man of spiritual discernment want to appear before the throne  to endure the cries of accusaton that will certainly come from the mouths of many?
Far better to settle accounts here...far, far better!!


Verne

Verne,

I did say "blind guides" plural.  Some had the 'privilege' of seeing George adamant for righteousness eh??  ;) but that was a select few.  However, George had his faithful ones who were nice guys.


MarkC and TomM,

Hope you don't mind me saying so, but I did not read DavidM's comments in the same tone as you did.  IMO it was an inquiry that got a response from Tom, and it's probably a good thing that Tom had that opportunity to re-state his case.  I see David as one who was wounded by the system that George built.

God bless,
Marcia

One of the things that I have wondered about is the hight tresh-hold for pain that so many demonstrated in the assemblies. While it is hard to precisely reflect on what our exact thinking and feeling was at the time, one has to ask the question:

Why did anyone put up with any of this????!!!!!

I now have a simple policy. If I come to the conclusion that someone is ungodly and a religious hypocrite, I consider them worse than a pagan and I treat the accordingly. I don't care what they call themselves. This is Biblical for it is possible to be worse than an unbeliever.
I remember when I came to the conclusion that Betty was nothing but a manipulative shrew.
She came to Champaign and was going to have a meeting for all the hapless singles.
I frankly was curious to hear what she was going to say. I had a conference I had to attend as it turns out so that I would miss the first session and told her puppet Tom Lessares that I would be back in tme for the next two sessions.
With great officiousness he informed me that if I could not attend all of the sessions, Betty did not want me attending any. This was a very easy call.
Why is it that the fright, flight or fight syndrom did not kick in with more urgency in view of what some folk had to endure under these thugs? I stil vividly remember Dan Notti roughly shoving me and sitting in the meeting trembling over my fear for the way I nearly reacted...my restraint was entirely a matter of training...my gut reaction was scary...
Verne

p.s. some of you did not only suffer the abuse personally, it also happened to your spouses and your children...thank God, for some that is where the line was finally crossed...

"Assembly Bad"

March 22:

After reading some of postings on this thread. I wanted to contribute these thoughts.

Dictionary Meaning:
The Complete Christian Disctionary for Home and School ----
Evil: adj: vry bad; wicked, sinful; harmful, evil thoughts
Evil: noun: Great wickedness, difficulty, or tragedy
""Out of men's hearts come evil thoughts [Mark 7:21]"
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

Wicked: adj: Morally very bad, evil; sinful

Wickedness: n. Sin, evil; extreme immorality.

Offend: v. 1. To sin, transgress
                2. to make angry
                3. to hurt somebody's feelings
                4. to be unpleasant or disagreeable

offense: n. 1. A wrong, crime, sin.

Offensive: adj:
1. Unpleasant, disagreeable,
2. Attacking or used for attacking.
                noun:
1. An aggressive movement or attack
2. The position or attitude of attack.


PSALM 139: 23-24:
NKJV:
Search me, O God and know my heart
Try me, and know my anxieties
And see if there is any wicked way in me
And lead me in the way everlasting


NEW CENTURY VERSION:
God, examine me and know my heart
Test me and know my thoughts
See if there is any bad thing in me
Lead in the way you set long ago.

THE NEW ENGLISH BIBLE
Examine me, O God, and know my thoughts
test me, and understand my misgivings
Watch lest I follow any path that grieves thee;
guide me in the ancient ways

NIV:
Search me, O God, and know my heart
test me, and know my anxious thoughts
See if there is any offensive way in me
and lead me to the way everlasting


MATTHEW 7: 1-5: NEW CENTURY VERSION
Don't judge other people, and you will not be judged.
You will be judged the same way that you judge others. And the forgiveness you give to others will be given to you.
Why do you notice the little piece of dust that is in your brother's eye, but you dont notice the  big piece of wood that is in your own eye.
Why do you say to your brother, "Let me take that little pice of dust out of your eye?
Look at yourself first! You still have that big piece of wood in your own eye.
You are a hypocrite! First, take the wood out of your own eye. Then you will see clearly enough to take the dust out of your brother's eye.

Assembly = Bad
Local Church of Witness Lee, Jehovah Witness, Mormans, Communism, homosexual groups = much badder.

Its only an assumption that if I didn't go into the Assembly that I would have been better off.

I  agree with you only because God promises that all things work together for good, however I  would never  choose the assembly for my kids over where they now attend.

Hi Everyone!  :)

 Lenore: Thanks for the verses on evil and the different translations on the same.  I found them helpful.

  Marcia: I do not mind at all, because I consider your opinions very valuable.  I posted what I posted to David M. because they were not truthful.  Had I just let the lies sit there some who do not know Tom might have thought they were true.

 Mark K. and Dave S.: "Assembly bad": for those, like Al, who wandered spiritually for decades thinking he was defective as a believer; for those that took their lives; for the women GG seduced; for those, like Diane Stratman, who was openly shamed and ridiculed by GG, while those who knew better sat by and watched; for those like Tom who was forced out on the verge of a nervous breakdown; for the Irons, who GG attempted to turn the parents against the son via false accusations to save GG's own stinking face; for all the parents of children in the group who were rejected at the direction of GG (actually leading to splitting up some of these families!), to myself who was forced out, shunned, and was publicaly decried as a "vessel of the devil, etc." 

  The list goes on and so do the consequences!  To these comparisons of worse situations will be meaningless, because this BB is about the Assembly and dealing with what we experienced.  Having been on BB's where these other groups are mentioned (I even had an email exchange with the heir to David Koresh for a period of time) it is striking how similar some of the issues are that we talk about here.  It is the subtle powers in abuse that can be the most deadly! Yep, Assembly muy malo!

                                               God Bless,  Mark C.

It is a wonderful truth that God will take the most horrific circumstances and turn it to the good of His own and His own glory.
What do you think the chances are of someone like George Geftakys coming into place of fellowship where a Tom Maddiux or Brent Tr0ckman or Mark Campbell is and making a splash?
The greatest lesson of the era is a stern warning to the peole of God against idol worship.
This is a far cry from those still desprately trying to convince some of us that "ministry"
of George Geftakys will endure as either gold. silver or precious stones.
Somebody came on the BB recently and challenged us to consider what he had built.
Let me tell you what he built for it is right there in your Bible.

WOOD. HAY. STUBBLE.

Get over it.

The fire will most certainly consume it.

Why not argue that we all should commit adultery and murder that perchance God would raise up a Solomon?
The book of Romans speaks pointedly to the futility of this kind of reasoning.
Gorge Geftakys is a wicked man.
His work was a wicked work. God nonetheless was merciful and excercised preserving grace in the lives of many. He alone should be praised, not that abomination parading as a ministry.
Verne

Mark,
 For the record, for me personally....assembly bad.
For me personally...God is Good
If any of my comments have appeared to slight the hurt people suffered in the assembly, it was never my intention and I apologize.  Quite honestly I don't know if my post struck you that way, what I do know is, we're brothers and we make room for our imperfections.
Mark

Back to Back posts! :o

  I actually got home early today, and Sindy is up visiting the Grandkids, so it will be blazing keyboards tonight ;) (sorry).

  Seriously, I want to answer Tom's last post to me.

  The question we are really trying to answer here is: What is the Christian life?

  I think this a problem for many of us because of our steady diet of GG's "holiness" teaching, along with the application of these beliefs in the place we used to call home.

  The quotation from the book, "The Purpose Driven life," tells me that I was wrong re. what I thought Tom was presenting as his view on a life of faith.  However, if what was written there is all there is to the Christian life than I would say the view needs to be widened. (the book may indeed have much more to say)

  I agree with what the author says, but only as far as it has to do with the area of behavior.  Please let me explain.  Tom quoted the verse in Philp. 2 "Work out your own salvation, etc."  Paul never intended for this verse to be the sum and substance of the Christian life in it's entirety.  The verse has to do with our actions, not our inner life. Though obviously the two are related.

  Some may be thinking that my objection to GG's teaching on "reckoning faith" is un-biblical, because---"hey, it's in the bible!"  Here's the big problem I have with it: Rom. 6 is talking about our behavior and the yielding of our lives to the service of righteousness. GG went beyond that to say that when we acted on our faith God then acted, via his Spirit, to make our hearts pure.

   If Pastor Warren is saying that we just need to do what is right, and in so doing we will be doing all that is necessary to grow into a mature healthy Christian then I can't agree.

  As we read the bible we must be careful of pulling out single verses, or even similar verses from different texts to create a theology (I am not accusing anyone of doing this, just trying to explain my position) as we can create these handy little 'self help' booklets that set out "how to ----------"  fill in the blank.  

  Paul in Philp. 2 is talking about how we treat one another in our fellowship in the great commision, and telling the Christians there that they not only are capable of doing what is right, but ought to do these good things.

 There are indeed benefits for choosing to obey God in my relationships for me as an individual, and a loss if I do not. Grace has not suspended the consequences for selfishness, pride, envy, pettiness, etc.  Paul said that if we have relations with a harlot "you sin against your own body."  Paul warned that we can harm anothers faith and work against the purpose of God by our wrong actions.

  In Philp 2 the first verse lays out conditions "if" we are to experience certain benefits from the Holy Spirit. ie. "comfort of love, etc."  Now, I will have to admit that this is enjoyed on the inside, but it is a large leap to say that the attitudes that he tells us to adopt are the means to "release the Spirit" in our lives, or to gain  the Spirit's help. Indeed Rom. 7 argues strongly against a view of the self actualized and sufficient Christian.

 Adopting the attitudes of Christ are the work of God in our lives.  Peter is a good illustration:  he read the book and knew the way to follow Jesus; he also had a very good teacher and he had the Holy Spirit!  He had to learn that the life of faith was not just based on the excercise of his faith, and in the process learned something about himself that he didn't know.  Jesus told him that as a young man his life was pretty much self directed, but when he got old he would discover that he would have to depend on others.

  How to summarize this in a succint fashion that helps us understand what I'm trying to say:

  As a Christian I can control my actions and choose behaviors that are good.  But, I also have a depth of fallen humanity that I still posess that the Spirit does not irradicate (take away).  Prayer, good deeds, sacraficial giving will not make my heart pure, nor take away from me the special kind of fallen person that still abides in me.  I am not saying that the old man must dominate our inner life, or that the Spirit does not move us toward purity, but it won't be by our "working out our salvation."

  Every person is different, but re. former Assembly members, we have some similiarities that must be noted and understood.  Handing out a booklet on "how to live the Christian life" to some former members might be helpful on some level, but it will not be effective to meet the needs of a broken heart.

  Thus Rom 8: 26:

         In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness.  We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words can not express.

1.) In what "way"? The word groan is used twice in the previous verses because he's saying that we know we have a deep need to experience the completion of our salvation and that this creates a deep emotional groan.  The "same way" is  not a call to an action that will complete God's work in our life, but a waiting in expecation for God to move.

2.)Our Weakness: We feel this, and it ain't going away until we leave this life.  We need to be comforted in our feelings in light of the inner pain that we feel.

3.) The Spirit helps:  How?  He prays for us.  Okay, what practical and specific good is that?
     We don't understand what is going on inside of us, and seem to in some areas lack control over our inner life.  When we consider our weakness, it can cause us to doubt that there is any hope, or if this whole Christian thing just isn't working in my life. However, the main point of Rom. 8 that Paul is making is not to doubt God's sure love for me as an individual inspite of all that is contrary within or without!

  This is the point I've been trying to make on the Wounded Pilgrims thread:  Many former Assembly members do not have the ability to make melody in their hearts to the Lord anymore.  They now understand correct teaching on the basic doctrines, but they think God is far from them in their lives.  They have changed their thinking, but their feelings are still trapped in a habit of guilt, depression, shame, and above it all a feeling that their lives no longer are serving a purpose.

   The Spirit is groaning for them!  God is passionate in his concern for these ones'!   They have to see that this is true, and learn what it means to develop an emotional habit of hope!  God's love is not just some kind of generalized attitude, but a value that God has placed on each one of his children!

    Honesty will be our friend in this adventure.  You know what your weakness is, and if for all your reckoning you still have that dark spot in your soul it does not make you more spiritual to deny it.  

  I hope that helps explain my position a little better, but I do hope to try and develop it more on the Wounded Pilgrims thread as the weeks go by.  Feel free to question, argue, or otherwise continue this wonderful consideration.

                                                God Bless,  Mark C.  

I am jumping into a conversation already in motion - always a tricky move, but the foolish plunge ahead ::)

I'm skip reading through the posts in this category and have some thoughts on culpability. I'd like to give a woman's perspective in this overwhelmingly male chat room. Not that it's bad to be a guy, that isn't what I mean. There may be room, however, for a new hue on the rainbow of opinions given thus far. Trust me on the things I say..I know of what I speak.

Who's really, ultimately culpable? The serpent, the woman, the man? Well, no one got off scott free the first time so we likely won't either. In this way everyone has a very good point, regardless of their position. When I put myself in the place of Adam and Eve I become overwhelmed emotionally, spiritually, physically from imagining their lives, day in and day out after the fall. Their entire lives, their futures, their children's outlooks - everything had been changed and nothing had been spared. The only thing left to them was hope. They didn't even have the comfort of blaming others for they could easily remember their own part. If that had been me I don't think I would've held up very well. Can you imagine going from picking fruit off a tree (or whatever they ate before) while conversing with God to having to till the land in a hostile environment and NO MORE WALKS WITH GOD IN THE GARDEN?

Adam and Eve didn't have the Bible or years of sermons or wise, human parents or any of the "pluses" we have. They also didn't have the negatives - thousands of years of sin built up, evil surrounding us at every turn, etc, etc. They are as pure specimans as we will likely find. Yet, doggone it, they find themselves in the exact same position we find ourselves. So who do we blame? If we add 'inherant sin' into the mix, there is enough blame to go around.

And yet...it was the serpent who beguiled, who INITIATED the transgression. It was the serpent, too, who got the worst consequence of all. Adam and Eve's consequences were mixed with hope. Gardeners don't consider tilling the land a curse as I would, they can wax poetic at length about the joys of what was, originally, a consequence. Having babies is awesome - the main reason I'm glad to be a girl - but try telling me that when I'm in transition and I'm likely to say "shut up". You get the idea, I'm sorry to belabor the point - our consequences are mixed and they have the greater hope of a saviour. The serpent's consequence had NO hope involved. He needed to be crushed, end of story.

In the assembly story, then, GG bears the greatest weight of culpability. PLEASE NOTE: I'M NOT GOING TO INSULT THE DEVIL BY PUTTING GG ON HIS LEVEL...I'M JUST TAKING THE ANALOGY TO THE NEXT LOGICAL STEP (at least to me). Aslan tells Lucy that she will never know what would've happened if she'd made different choices. We won't either. It may have been worse, it may have been much, much better. At the end of the day we are still here, where we actually are.

I've made choices that are waaaay bad by virtually anyone's standards. I know the genesis of these choices, yet I"m the one who bears responsibility because I am the one who made them. I hate that. Others bear responsibility, too, I know that. I want to touch on Marcia's point - we WERE vulnerable. I'm not apologizing for that, none of us should IMO. Should we become hard as stone, guarding against being hurt again? It's one option but can't be the best one. It doesn't seem to fit into the "wise as serpents but innocent as doves" (?) I FORGOT THE VERSE!!! I'm kind of happy about that, in a weird way. I don't have the answers. If I did, God and I would be on speaking terms and we currently are not (at least from my end). I CAN'T apologize for the wounds inflicted on me that helped shape me into the woman who made these choices. Yet I must do something or I will continue to play out these wounds in my life, in my kids lives, over and over and over and over till the Lord returns.

I'm rambling....my point (!) from the female perspective is we are meant to be vulnerable. For instance...a woman (cover your ears if you don't like old-fashioned thinking) NEEDS, WANTS, PANTS FOR a man to love her. Nothing else matters in the way this does. If she does not receive appropriate affection from her dad, she will spend the rest of her life looking for it, usually in ways that end up hurting herself and others. The hope in that scenario is HEALING from the ultimate healer. So should she apologize for being made the way she is, with the needs she has?????? NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER. So, you go David M. and whoever else is fuming mad. BE MAD, YOU SHOULD BE. You were taken advantage of. Your vulnerabilities were tapped, viciously used for someone else's pleasure. IT IS PAINFUL BEYOND MEASURE TO HAVE THAT HAPPEN TO A WOMAN, IT IS NO LESS PAINFUL, MAYBE MORE SO - I'M NOT OBJECTIVE HERE - TO HAVE IT HAPPEN SPIRITUALLY.

Hmmm...if there was a good ending to this I've forgotten as I've spent the last ten minutes listening to my daughter repeatedly sigh VERY LOUDLY while she waits to IM her friends.

OK, so my two cents worth.

Karey

I think I understand what you are driving at. Being in fellowship and thus being subject to spiritual leadership is by definition vulnerability. I really struggle with blaming the average saint who is understandably inclined to defer to appointed leaders.
From their perspective, why not err on the side of caution...? :'(
It is the unique and divine calling of spiritual leaders, charged before almighty God and the holy angels, to see to it that such a saint, who in a response of obedience to God makes himself/herself subject, is not harmed spiritually or otherwise as a result of that decision. Failure to do so is to make God a liar....


 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

I wonder if anyone will ever truly understand why I am so often beside myself over this matter of spiritual leadership??
They stand in Christ's stead, to serve and protect...
I have not talked much about the unseen battle and how the visible manifestation of failure speaks so loudly of horrible compromise in the secret places...it still moves me to bitter tears...may the Lord forgive us.... :'(  :'(  :'(
Verne
p.s Matthew 10:16 is probably the verse you forgot.

Remember those single-panel cartoon signs some years ago that said "Last month I couldn't even spell 'engineer'-- Now I are one!"?  Our son, with an excellent work history and a two-year AS degree with honors, interviewed with a large corporation and started work the following week as a "projects engineer."  He was the same guy he had been the week before-- the nameplate on his desk meant nothing.  It took a lot of personal drive on the job for him to learn and excel at his duties.

When I was a zealous young believer, two ministers I knew offered to sponsor me for ordination with their denomination.  I don't mean seminary-- I mean ordination, based upon my zeal I suppose, because I hadn't enough Bible knowledge to butter a piece of toast.  I was flattered, but deeply convicted that it would be a terribly wrong step for me to take, so I declined.

George invited me into the workers meeting the 2nd time it convened because I had asked him what it was all about after the frist time the workers met.  A week or two later he asked me into the LBs meeting, and shortly thereafter he announced my inclusion to the assy.  He was building something.

I did my best to adhere to the training I received, but I think we all recognize now that the training was askew.  Most of what I had learned prior to the formation of the assy had been erroneous and powerless form, lacking substance and power even while proclaiming to have both.  The assy was a much more intense version of the same.  I learned a lot during my assy years, but nothing that made me a stronger or better Christian.

George used to like the phrase, "Let's quit kidding the actors."  Well, that was me-- an actor, doing my best to "flesh-out" the role assigned to me with natural talent because what I was was all I had.  Calling me a worker and an LB hadn't changed anything about me, and nothing I was taught brought me any nearer to godliness.  The truth is, when I left the assy over a decade later, I was farther from knowing Christ in any practical sense than I had been before the assembly existed.

My point is that I and numerous others over the years understood nothing of the "charge before God and the holy angels" of which Verne speaks, nothing of "standing in Christ's stead to serve and protect," except George's version, which had a lot more to do with the "testimony" and George's opinions than with Christ.  Looking back, I think that through that time of my life "Christ" became, to me, just a word referring to a factor in the general scheme of "the testimony," & "the work."  I think that any per orchestration of theception of Jesus as a living entity was gradually lost to me during those dark years.

I offer this discussion as both a confession and an explanation of how things were from my perspective, but not to excuse any of my misdeeds, some of which are still coming to light...


Perhaps it's now time you do so...

Gratefully In Christ,
al

Wow, thanks Verne. You said it very well.

Karey

Al,

You make a good observation.  This is the failure of the system that George built :
2Tim 3:5 holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; and avoid such men as these.
....
2Tim 3:7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Since the focus was on keeping the assemblies going, preserving the testimony, Christ was not in the picture.  The only way to know "Christ in any practical sense" was to compromise one's commitment to the program, which then resulted in being labelled as being dominant for not submitting, or backsliding, or losing the vision, or ....
People like DavidM were victims of this system. And leaders like TomM, MarkC, SteveIrons who attempted to make that difference were pushed out and shunned.  I think Tom still has his rhinocerous skin as a souvenir ;).

I have discovered that in the less than 2 years since I have left, I have actually made "progress" re. long standing issues and dilemnas that were with me when I got saved.  I left 20+ years of "fellowship" with the same issues that I had going into "fellowship".  A number of others who have left since 2003 have made similar observations re. their own issues.

God bless,
Marcia

P.S.
MarkC  It's great to have you on board during the week.  Maybe it's time to quit the day job eh?? ;)
I like DavidM's difficult questions, I just disagree with you, Mark, re. David's attitude.  But we can agree to disgree on this one point.

Marcia

Yes, it may be meaningless in this sense:  you can't go up to someone who was beaten up by thugs and say, "good thing they didn't have knives".  This doesn't help the pain.

But, it is not meaningless in the context of my life where I an able see how God used "evil for good", enriched my life and kept me from worse things.  No one wants a major operation or a child to die of cancer.  But many can look back and see how God used it.  So, I don't think the thought is irrelevant.  I look back at the Assembly as my cancer operation and I am glad I wasn't in a group where the cancer was terminal.

I guess I am having a hard time buying into the black-and-white "Assembly bad" mentality because I don't know what it means.  Does it mean it was bad to join the Assembly (as Mark K uses it).  Well, OK I can buy into that.  There are other churches I wish I went to in my college years.  Does it mean the Assembly did unspeakably bad things (as Mark C uses it).  Well, I can buy into that.  There was spiritual abuse to all and focused abuse towards many in the inner circle.  Does it mean there were no positives, no working of God, no learning, no good ideals, no spiritual growth, no sincere leader?  Well, then I don't agree.  There was.

In my opinion, I think a much better saying would be:  "George bad".  In fact, I think the Assembly was rather good except for the many places George had a chokehold.  In fact, in the few places where you could get away from George's "big hand" of dominance and control, it was a great blessing.

It is true that we have to look at all events in space-time through the lens of God's over-arching sovereignty.
It would be a grave mistake to let that perspective cripple one's faculty of discernment, and the ability to distinguish good and evil.
The children of Israel left the land of Egypt after four hundred and thirty years to the day ( after Jacob's arrival) of extended bondage. God's sovereign hand is evident in the nation's arrival, its sojourn and most certainly in its departure.
The only Israelites who argued that being in Egypt was a good thing (and by implication that they should return) were ones who failed to understand God's purpose and ultimately failed to enter into  it.
Can you imagine a delivered Israelite making the argument that Pharaoh was not so bad, that at first he at least did provide straw for the bricks, and Oh yes! The leeks and the onions were good were they not? The beatings did not get real serious until there was talk about leaving...etc. etc.
Some of you will immediately say to me - but Verne, some did do just that!  I know... :)

Please do not misunderstand me in this. God was still sovereign in the lives of His own who were in the assemblies and there were certainly many who did experience His faithfulness and spiritual growth while there.
How many of these do you think stayed...?!
The nation of Israrel grew from seventy souls to over six hundred thousand during the sojourn  in Egypt.

It was nevertheless a place of awful bondage - an iron furnace!

It makes me sad to think that we would be confused about the fact that the assemblies were, and always will be, despite whatever good God may have accomplished, a place of BONDAGE.
Verne

p.s the most astonishing thing to me in all of this is how little, if any at all, discussion there has been by those who should be most keen on this point, on the matter of God's purpose in allowing a man like Geftakys to do what he did.
We have been tinkering around the edges frankly...
The mark of mature Christianity is learning to recognize the purpose of God in EVERY circumstance.
Fail to do this, and the entire lesson will be completely lost on the participants...
p.p.s do any of you thnk that anyone in the asemblies rose to any position of responsibility without George's personal say-so?
My greatest joy in recollection of my time there was that I was nothing...how I thank my Heavenly Father for His preserving grace...Hallelujah!! :)  :)  :)

God works in such mysterious ways Al. Sometime in the early eighties when Kurt Green was in Champaign, he was trying to discourage me from taking a trip home to see my parents because the "workers' seminar would be that week".
Although he never said so explicitly, I got the distinct impression that he expected that I would be going. I have to confess that it was flattering and I cannot now honestly say how I would have responded had I been asked to attend.
Did my decision to go home have a dramatic and fateful  impact on my destiny?
I would not be the same person I am today had I ever become officially involved with George's "work", of that I am certain.
It is kind of strange that an article I wrote while in the Virgin Islands was actually published in T and T!(Torture & Travesty  ;D)
There is no question that God had a specific pupose for taking you on the path he did my friend.
He intends it to accrue to your eternal benefit, your own estimation of it notwithstanding... :)
Verne

Mark K. :  My comments re. your exchange with Dave S. were meant to be supportive of your view and not critical.  I did not interpret your comments as being down on any individuals.  I have enjoyed your contribution to this topic and the BB in general.

Marcia: Re. quitting my day job:  Any contributions will be gladly accepted, though I will not be as brash as "Burt from Barstow" in my fundraising efforts.  ;) ;) ;D  .  Dave M. has a right to express his opinion, but if he is not truthful I have a right to call him on it. My heart does go out to him, because as you said he is damaged goods, and I have not been one of those who have called for his ouster from the BB.  His initial post raised an important question that needs to be faced by the church.

Dave S. :  I would like to respond to what you had to say re. "Assembly bad" but I will have to wait until I have some more time.  I understand your perspective and respect your views very much, but I would like to take some time in explaining how in practice the groups you mentioned are not that different from the Assembly.  In public teaching the Assembly may have been more orthodox, but in practice they used the same kind of guilt and shame based control methods used by every cult.

  Within everyone of the groups you mentioned the former members can remember good times, and most certainly there are individuals for whom we remember as being earnest and good people.  I have fond memories of most of my old Assembly pals and can recall times where God used my relationships there; after all, I got married there, and that was a very good thing!

  When I say "Assembly bad" I am speaking of the system that GG set up that was an idolotrous counterfeit of true Christian life.  It runs like a machine and chews up the good people who are involved in it.  Yes, some stayed on the fringes, and for them they may have heard the noise from the factory, but never got close enough to breathe the toxic fumes it spewed.

  However, I must wait to go into this further as I do indeed have a day job to go to tomorrow.  ;)

                                                      God Bless,  Mark C.

Yep! That was definitely me. There was indeeed a toxic aroma emmanating from the inner circle of this bunch and some of us instinctively (and wisely) kept our distance. Some clueless wannabe doltishly referred to this as "hiding" can you imagine? The really smart folk knew better than to let any of these vultures get their beaks or claws in them...
Verne

Well, that one does indeed hit home. 

I can't say I know exactly what the "true Christian life" is.  I'm not trying to be a wise-acre.  Some Christian friends of mine feel the true spiritual life lies in intamacy and a sensitivity to what they feel is God's subjective leading.  Others model Christ by having a well ordered home and high ethics in business.  Others are more intellectual about their faith.  Others are very feelings oriented.  Yet, with all this diversity, I think my friends are at least in the ballpark of truth of working out a relationship with Jesus Christ.

The model I got from George is arrogance (we are God's chosen because we are willing to see the truth), exclusiveness (those other churches are simply walking in the light they have, but we have something better), denial (I'm not overbrearing.  I'm just being a faithful shepherd) judgementalism (you can't support your friend.  He got divorsed and is in sin), pride (Thank God I did my homework.  You would know this unless you are a historical ignoramus), etc.  But, again, my problem seems to always gravitate back to George.

But, dare I write off everything?  Was there never good ministry given?  Was there never Christian truth proclaimed or read?  Was there no good examples?  Was everything I picked up false?  No.

You probably don't have to wax long on the idea that other groups use the same techniques as the Assembly.  I've read "churches that abuse" and other resources and know that there are a certain set of practices that make a group unhealthy.   And, yes, the Assembly incorporated them like David Koresh.

But, there are differences.  Some groups went out in a flame of gunfire.  Others encouraged open orgies.  Other groups, when you leave, you fear for your life or you cannot function without years of intense counseling.  Other groups have doctrine that is so out there that it isn't even close to Christian and there is no possible way to understand the gospel.

So I agree with you that it is helpful to look at other groups and note the simlarities.  And I understand that telling a wounded pilgrim that he was only injured with an arrow and not a machine gun really doesn't help him or her.  However, I don't think you can drop every group from the Assembly to skin-head Nazis into one box and say that there is no difference.

You are making some great points Dave. There are some folk who were in the assembly who I believe made a difference, and I think exactly for the reason that they were willing to go against the system. There are some men I met there that I still think of with fond respect. Guys like Chubby Todd, Denny Fredericks, Jim McCumber, Paul Hohulin and Paul Martin. These men were good examples and a godly influence. I am sure there were others who can also cite exceptions from the norm. Men who were unquestionably part of the system but whom I found to be men of absolute integrity.
This is something of a double edged sword because these kinds of men were also the reason some folk stuck around so long.
I am also grateful for the deep friendships I formed there.
I still have to smile when I thinkg about all the great times of laughter I had with guys like Mark Kisla and Gary Mau.
The singing group from St Louis was a great blessing and Peter James and I are still in touch and try to play together every now and then. Were there some good things in the  assemblies? Yes, for me there were. Points well taken Dave.
Verne

Dave,
I just don't want the good things that were not assembly controlled that I received during my time of involvement in the assembly, to prevent me from calling the assembly what it really was or cause me to candy coat what was wrong there.
Mark K

Verne,
 I have the same sentiment toward you and the individuals you have mentioned, plus many many others. I don't credit the assembly for these people, but God  who had mercy on us, despite the wrongs that were taking place in the assembly

Matt 5:20 "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven."

Matt 23:23  "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others."

It would appear that the scribes and Pharisees did do some things right, but nevertheless the Lord Jesus rebuked them and their system.

The evil comes from the same source and manifested in varying degrees. e.g. the Lord said that their father was the devil.  Nice organized systemized Pharisees of the devil ???

The evil that comes from twisted Christianity is harder to untangle than that which is clearer cut black and white.

Marcia

I don't think you have any danger of that if you are being honest on both sides.  Give credit where credit is due and call a spade a spade.  Don't just apply a label or put in a box.

 Hi Dave!

  Thanks for hanging in on this conversation, because I'm not just trying to be argumentative, but am really trying to think this one through.

  I understand your fear that I may "wax long"  ;) , but I will spare you and everyone else a lengthy lecture ;D!

  When I talk of the "Christian life" I'm not talking about personal preferences re. lifestyle but what the Bible teaches re. moral responsibilities.  After all, this discussion is about "good and evil" and how the Assembly may fit into God's views re. the same.

  A most poigant example of this is how recently a number of evangelical Christians took the public position of the need to "forgive" a man who sexaully abused and murdered a child.  They are terribly confused morally re. what the bible teaches re. what God is really like.  They understand God's love, and human depravity in a way that makes it seem that God could care less about the victim of the crime, but feels great affection for the victimizer!!! ???

  It is a false view of grace to believe that God's love is without any moral evaluation that discriminates between a victimizer and a victim.  Jesus himself made a difference between the bad Jewish religionist and the abused member in that system.  Marcia's quotes from the NT point this out well.

  I think it is very helpful to see how the Bible treats the whole issue, because I find it is decidedly different from how cult watching groups tend to deal with it.  The NT is very concerned with the pattern of practice found in groups that claim to follow God, as well as orthodox doctrine.

  When the ascended Jesus dealt with the 7 churches of Asia practices were the most important issues dealt with (in other words how they lived).  Laodicea was considered a Christian church, and undoubtedly there were true Christians in the group, but Jesus gave a general denunciation of all involved!

  Did they not have times in that group where the truth was proclaimed and did they not have in that group individuals who were sincere in their pursuit of God?  Was it unfair of Jesus to just negate the good and attack them for their failures?  Aren't we all just sinners and all churches fall short?  Certainly there were worse groups in Asia at the time that deserved far more a good lambasting for their outlandish beliefs and practices!

  The reason why Jesus was so strident with Laodicea is exactly because there were those of value in that church that he believed he could reach.  This is why we should continue to be just as energetic in our outreach to those disaffected from their Assembly experience.

  Loadicea had developed a system that used Christian language that damaged true believers; it drove a wedge between Jesus and His people ("behold I stand at the door and knock").

   We run the risk of muting Jesus' entreaty to former/present Asembly members if we minimize the true character of the Assembly as anything less than a spiritually abusive system.  We also lessen the clarity that is necessary for former leaders if they are to find true repentance and recovery.

 We know how some former members are living in denial and are looking for anything they can do to ease their conscience (for those whose conscience isn't already seared) by attempting to mitigate any view that God had problems with Assembly practices and teaching.  By trying to claim that Assembly problems were primarily GG's failures, and that these "failures" did not become systemized bad religion, is a mistake.

  Yes, Neo Nazi groups are much farther away from God, but most likely there are no children of God in such a group, and as such none that can be recovered to a healthy view of things.  I trust that I have not "waxed too long" with this post ;) ;) :-*  

                                                 God Bless,  Mark C.

I don't want to put God in a box and label it the assembly.
Honesty with oneself and scriptual truth are very important. Without Gods grace I could'nt do either.

One of the very first things I learned about walking with the Saviour is to agree with Him regarding my sin.
1. That it exists.
2. That He has paid the price for its forgiveness.
There is a kind of fog shrouding the minds of a lot of Christians today in this area Mark and I am glad to hear you make the point. We have seen the result of that kind of fuzzy thinking on the BB not just once but several times.
In fact, I suspect that some people rely on the incredible stupidity of some Christians in this regard and puposefully trun it to an advantage.
To promote "love" and "forgiveness" for people who not only refuse to acknowldge transgression, but continue to engage in destructive and unholy conduct is total and complete spiritual idiocy.
This is exactly the kind of argument used to silence protest of ungodly conduct in the assemblies.
That anyone would still try to use that tactic after all that has transpired is remarkable.
The Bible speaks far more about God's holiness than it does about His love.
I have concluded that people who think and argue like this are totally corrupt, and lacking any moral compass whatsoever.
It seems to be that accommodation with personal sin and compromise, is what ultimately enables its toleration and sanction in others, particularly self-proclaimed believers.
I want to be clear that I am not speaking about anyone posting on this BB but speaking in general about how too many Christinas react to wickedness.
 The Bible says that people who name the name of Christ, yet by their conduct deny him are worse than infidels, and we are to treat them accordingly. There is no instruction to extend to people of this sort, "forgivness" and "love". We need to read ALL of our Bibles to avoid playing the part of complete and utter fools... wise as serpents, harmless as doves...
Verne

Hi Verne!

  Thanks for your comments.  I want to be clear that I don't consider Dave S. to have "foggy thoughts" and I realize that you also mentioned this too and that you have made clear that you are not addressing any present BB poster. 

  I also want to make clear that those who take the position that "the Assembly isn't as bad as some say it is", are not the same as those who are defending the teaching/practices of the group.

   We all had different experiences in the group and some of us are plucking out more arrows than others  ;) and as such will be more active in our condemnation of the archer.  However, the fact that there are any arrows to pull out begs the question of why are there those in the church of Jesus Christ  with bows and arrows who use them against his children in the first place!

   It is good, IMHO, however, to step back and try to ask the question how does God look at it?  When I mentioned the Church at Laodicea I was trying to gain a Biblical perspective apart from my own bias on the issue.

 When I look at all the material in the Gospels that focuses on the God given religion of Israel, and how it was twisted by the Pharisees, this could give another clue as to what Jesus might say if he was posting on the BB.

  Are there any comparisons to be made?  Was Jesus just exaggerating (hyperbole) as a means to gain the attention of the Pharisees, or can bad religion really make people into monsters?  Why was Jesus so angry with, and why did he so strongly denounce, these leaders?

  Why did Paul warn Christians that they could "destroy" a brother and that we are capable of "biting and devouring one another?"


   Jesus also warned his disciples against, (MT. 24:48-49) "beating their fellowservants" and could this have any application with the treatment some received while in the Assembly?

  The NT seems to have a zero tolerance policy for non-loving destructive actions taken in the name of God by supposed leaders of God.  If any of this kind of thing is going on in a group, and is not instantly rebuked, and instead is ignored, can we say that the Spirit of God is present in such a gathering (though good preaching and some good people are present)?

  In the Assembly not only was abuse ignored it was put in place as supposedly God's means of "breaking us" and "forming us" into his true servants!  If Judy Geftakys was getting smacked around by her husband it was God trying to teach her that she needed to curtail her "sharp tongue."!! :'(

  I remember Judy as a young believer from the Valley.  She had a fresh innocence and sure faith in the Gospel and wanted to follow God in her life.  Because of GG and his Assembly this woman's spiritual life has been destroyed! :'( :'(

  I state this to ask you what you believe God thinks about this?  For whatever there was in the Assembly that might have had aspects of good in it, the bad far outweighed the good in her case, and makes her now suspect of anything Christian at all!

  Could the Devil actually have been involved in some of what went on in the Assembly, or is that going too far?  Is it Devilish to cover-up wife and child beating?  Does it serve the Devil to cover-up a child molestation to protect the ministry and an indiviudal who is valuable to the work?

   What do you believe God thinks of these kind of things?  It brings me to tears, but maybe I'm just a sentimental old Grandpa with an axe to grind. 

                                     God bless,  Mark C.

There was a time, in the thinking of both those within and without the church, that the standard for a servant of Jesus Christ was high indeed. It would have been unthinkable for men guilty of sexual and other venial sins to contunue in ministry. Most men who fell prey to this kind of weakness, would not even need somebody to tell them that they were unfit for service. How times have changed!
I  was particularly disgusted with the way the African American community excused the adulterous conduct of a man like Jesse Jackson.
For some reason this touches a very sensitive chord in me. Practically all of the strongest reactions evoked in me (sometimes I admit not with grace) during my time on this BB has been from people who seem too willing to excuse godless behavour from those in positions of spiritual authority.
My reaction is not based only on emotion though. It has a theological warrant.
Mark you are absolutely right in pointing our that the Biblical standard for wolves in sheep's clothing is ZERO TOLERANCE!
I guess where some of us have a problem is in recognizing them.
I will tell your quite frankly, I would rather err on the side of caution when it comes to this.
One can always apologise to an offended sheep later.
Mistaking a wolf for a sheep will afford you no such opportunity.
You will ultimately be devoured.
Some folk, in my humble opinon, are still making this mistake...
Verne



  My heart still breaks for this sister...she is the primary reason for the way I sometimes speak as I do... :'(
Verne

Mark,

Thanks for your thought and I do understand better where you are coming from.

I do have a natural aversion to labels (Assembly-bad, or when we were in the Assembly, Denominations-bad, Charismatics-bad, John MacAuthor-Bad, Catholics-bad etc.) and part of my rethinking my Assembly years is to attempt (often unsuccessfully) to view things not as systems, but made up of individual people, not all of whom are bad.

However, in reading your posts and others, I can see many context in which the label fits.  As Al Hartman said to me, "I can't in good conscience refer someone to the Assembly".  Therefore, in that sense, bad.  I would recommend Calvary Chapel or EV Free or many other churches in the Southern California area long before I would say, "you know, there is still a group of folks meeting at the  Senior center . . ." (even with all the reform and attitude changes that have taken place).

I'm sorry about the "wax long" comment.  It was more flippant than I intended it to be.

By the way, I am probably going to be in-and-out of the bb.  I am getting real busy at work and I am working hard to make sure that this board doesn't become a distraction (our weekends are getting loaded as well with a business trip and foster care conference).   I guess I should be happy that Samaritan's Purse is collecting shoe box gifts for Tsunami victems, but it sure is taking a chunk out of my software development schedule!

But, I have much to be thankful for.  I have a good job and I would much rather be over-busy than under-busy.  I've had both and having little to do on the job is the pits.

Lord bless,

-Dave