AssemblyBoard

   Last Tuesday night I found myself surrounded by republicans!  Big burly pro-war republicans! They were yelling "Shame on you!!!" Jumping up and down, blowing whistles and beating drums!!  There were firefighters, policemen, prison guards, nurses, teachers and parents. Yet, I was with them yelling also!!!   We were all yelling at the limo driving, $11,000 dollar a plate paying republicans who were attending republican governor Schwarzeneger's fund raising dinner at the Irvine Hyatt. (People at an  L.A. fundraiser paid $89 grand for a private audience with Arno! Hey no special interest going on there!) About a thousand of us suffererd through the worst rush hour traffic and pouring rain to make it known that we don't appreciate the fact that he is taking away our benefits/funding etc... so here I am dancing with the people who stand against most of what I believe! What is the world coming to???

Welcome to the workings of politics on both sides of the fence.  I don't like how everything works either, but its the system we have.

Dave: 

When you say that you don't appreciate that he (Governor Schwarzenegger) is taking away our benefits/funding......when you say "our", whom do you mean?  And what kind of benefits are we talking about? 

Matt

As long as we operate under the premise that we get/deserve/are entitled to benefits from the government, this sort of thing will happen.  You make a good point, illustrating how when push comes to shove, your republican friends don't really believe in less government.  They may believe in less government for some other person, but when it comes to themselves, they scream if less government comes their way.

I am sensitive to the plight of public schools, David.  My five children attend them, and I am a very active booster, both with my time and my wallet.  My wife is on the School Site Council so she actually gets to make decisions about how the money is spent.  I admire you for making the sacrifice to teach children.

However, as long as we insist on sending our local tax dollars to Sacramento and DC, we will continue to get screwed like this, due to the massive waste and mismanagement in the public school system.

Did you know that California spends a little over 8 thousand per child, per year?  Imagine this:

Give the teachers exactly 5 thousand per child in their classrooms.  That means they would get 150K for a class of 30.

Out of that 150k, they need to buy all the supplies, and new computers every year, for every child. (Teachers already spend plenty of their own money on school supplies)  Each teacher also needs to chip in 1500 bucks a year for the janitorial staff.  

All kids who get a referral/detention are required to clean up the school, scrub floors/toilets, etc.

If you do the math, and look at the deals you can get from Dell, or Apple, most of the teachers would pocket a little over 100 grand per year.  They would be free to buy their own insurance, and fund their own SEP's as I do, being self employed.

Give the other 3 thousand to the district and let them generate faxes and memos to eachother as often as they wish, but don't give them any power other than to hire bus drivers, etc.  They would have to buy their own hard candies and Christmas decorations, as well as pencils and chalk.....like teachers do now.

I submit that the average public school teacher is more than capable of buying books, etc.  Shoot, you could even use the same mathbook for a couple years, instead of getting new ones all the time.  

This is what would happen if schools were locally funded and controlled.  If this were the case, you wouldn't find yourself in the uncomfortable situation of standing side by side with republicans.  When it comes to one's own slice of the government pie, there really isn't any difference between Dems and Republicans.

Brent

Matt, I have some good info I would like to pass on to you and will later but I can't get it out right now. From what I can remember the nurses are upset about being understaffed. I use to work as a nurses aid in a convalecent home. I had nine patients to get up out of bed, peri care, bath, dress, oral care, groom and trouble shoot everything in between, "Excuse me I just &^%$ my diaper!"
O.K. 9 patients if no one called in sick that day!!! Sometimes I had 18!!! Yet these nurses are "Intensive Care"  I think, I am not sure.  They had an agreement that they would not have more than 5 patients per shift but the Governor wants to renig on the deal.  The firefighters if I understand it right are loseing their death benefits. I think this is a sum of $ paid to families if a spouse is killed during a fire. I believe this involves funeral expenses?  The teachers may lose tenure. This means due process. A teacher without tenure can be fired for no given reason.  John Fitspatrick did not have tenure when Anahiem let him go!  He spent two years kissing butt, volunteering to coach track, helping out for afterschool functions and the last day before getting tenure they dumped him. No reason given!  Great thing to go and tell the wife and kids about!  Teachers are also loosing $ that was already voter approved for the classroom. Everyone is upset about their retirement. This I am not sure what or why. I believe it has something to do with the fact that CEO's are pay 89 grand for a personal audience with him. I will try and get this information after I get back from my vacation.

Brent, Thanks for the kind comments.  Yes it is all a bunch of garbage!  If I win the lottery I will go to work for a private school. Something you might find advertised in Green Teacher. But you left out how much money is spent on special education.  From what I am told special ed gets more of the pie than any other program!!!!  Yet just as you pointed out I don't see it being used properly. We have one special ed teacher who has one aid and 55 kids!!!!! She is supose to have a 24 limit!!!  But it has never worked out that way

Dave:

Why is the state government is involved with funding hospitals and making sure that there is a patient/nurse ratio observed?  I guess it must have to do with Medical and stuff like that. 

As far as retirement is concerned,  WHY should schoolteachers/government employees be more shielded from the economic realities of providing for one's own retirement than others?  I am not too well versed on all things "government" but I think I know whining when I see and hear it. 

Matt

  Matt, When I worked at St. Judes, as an Occupational Therapy Assistant, I was paid $9 an hr. At the time I really didn't care about the money and didn't think I was being taken advantage of. As a  Christian in the Assembly I was taught to "be content in all things."  Later on I found out other staff members were being paid more simply because they took the time to find out their worth and demand it from the administration. Like a fool, I simply stated in my interview, "What is your offer?" As time went on I discovered my work load to be very exhausting.  I had way to many things to do (Lift dead wieght people all day long.) that I don't have the time to explain right now.  What I will tell you is that I averaged 11 hours billed-time for every 8 hour day that I worked. The hospital charged insurance companies $75-$135 for every hr. treatment I performed. After working for St. Judes 5 years I received minimal wage increases. During that time we in the rehab dept. were constantly lectured about "Productivity" and "Increased Billings"  We were constantly pushed to make them more money at the expense of our own backs!  Do the math!!! I was an idiot!!! Today St. Judes has grown into the most prosperous medical institution in North Orange County.  What did I get out of it?  During the 15 years I was "In fellowship" I believed that I was just suppose to be a nice good person who didn't stand on his own rights. Jesus was suppose to look out for me!  Yet as time went on I realized that even people in the assembly spent their energy and intelligence looking out for their own good. While I was doing all I could to help the growth of the assembly others were getting degrees, buying houses etc... This is to be commended!  Only a fool would just sit back and let other people walk all over him.  So now I am doing the same! I am standing up for my rights and I am not going to give an inch without a fight!   BTW what do you do for a living?

Matt,

You wrote:

No one has a "right" to collect other people's money.  But in California the public employee and teacher retirement systems are excellent. They have been doing some of the things that Bush is recommending for Social Security for years.

Very early on, they set up a their own retirement systems.  Teachers paid 8% of their gross income monthly.  The school district also made a contribution, just as in the SS system.  The money is held in your personal account, and you earn interest on it since all your money is invested in the system's portfolio of stocks and bonds.  Very diversified, very "safe", as much as anything is safe in this world.

If you quit your job, you get your contributions and the interest they have earned back.  It is your money.

Retired teachers and public employees are paid out of the current contributions of working teachers plus interest earned on the district's contributions.  It has worked very well, and the benefits are FAR superior to SS.

The longer you work, the greater your retirement benefit is.  This acts as an incentive to keep experienced teachers working.

Naturally, there is a LOT of money in their portfolios.   Billions.   The state government has a very difficult time keeping its hands off of this, and frequently attempts to "raid" the funds for "emergencies" (which, of course, are caused by the free spending habits of the kind of politicians the teacher's unions support!  ???)

The Gobernator is signing on to the currently popular idea of a combination of guaranteed benefits plus individual retirement accounts.  Teacher's don't want this because they tend to be very cautious people, and the devil you know is never as frightening as the devil you don't know. 

Teacher's, working through their unions and the AARP, an organization founded and mostly run by retired teachers, are fighting Ahnold and Bush both.

However, at the same time they very much favor the policies of "free" government health care for everyone in the USA and ever increasing spending on education.   Go figure.


BTW, California teachers hired after 1988 or so have to pay a combination of SS and teacher's retirement.  I never looked into exactly how that works, since I started in 1970.

Thomas Maddux

Dave:

I work for a company that does contract manufacturing (our customers are companies like Boeing, Lockheed, Teledyne and others, military or commercial, that need circuit board or cable/harness assemblies put together).
I create spreadsheets from our customer requirements for quoting new jobs (parts lists), so that our people can get competitive material pricing and thus we get contracts.  I am the guy most involved with the bills of material (along with my boss the purchasing manager) and quote packages.  My official title is "Data Entry/Spreadsheets", but I do quite a bit more than that, and am thinking about what else I could do in the days to come. 

The reason why I wrote what I wrote is that your tone was pretty shrill.  Frankly, I find it difficult to take people seriously when they speak with a shrill tone.  I thank Tom for the explanation of retirement accounts, though I do understand the concept (sometimes I come across as being ignorant, especially when I don't take the time to think things through before I type them down). 

Matt Sciaini

Sorry about the shrill tone, since you mentioned it I didn't appreciate the "Whining" coment. Have you ever studyed the labor movement?  You can get a good idea of working conditions during the industrial revolution by reading Dickens, Michael Gold, Sinclair. The unions in this country have lost a tremendous amount of power over the past twenty years. For the middle class the standard of living has gone way down. 40 years ago my stepdad supported our family on his job alone. We lived in a three bedroom house and had two cars. (He had a year of trade tech college.) There are many reasons for this (not all the falt of Roger Smith) Yet I believe if the common laborer doesn't stand up for his rights the capitalistic tendancy is to return to a system where the working man makes just enough to survive on while the rich become extrememly wealthy. A large portion of the working class in the U.S. are republicans. They see themselves as the backbone of America. Many of these people are the moral fiber of our country. (O.K. someone start playing theNational Anthem) They are honest, pay their taxes and many are the military loseing their lives in Iraq. They are the figherfighters that died in 911. The police, teachers nurses, and prison gaurds etc..Don't you think the politicans better remember these people?

Most people who think about the labor movement in this country conjure up images of mob union bosses and corrupt politicking. While some of these images are sadly true, people who think of the movement in only these terms are by and large ignorant of the movement's history
That is certainly the impression you would get from listening only to people like Rush Lmbaugh
For those of you who do not appreciate it, the labor movement brought you the weekend folks!
What has happened, as is the case with so many other important and legitimate movements in this country (including the civil rights movement), is that the cause has been severely compromised by corrupt and self-serving leaders, and the need to form alliances to excercise political leverage.
You can imagine the kind of heat I  took for standing up as a delegate at an AFSCME national convention and stating my oppoisition as a Christian, and a dues-paying union member, to our union being an advocate of homosexuality and same-sex marriages.
Verne.

  At the last CTA meeting I attended I noticed a slick looking "soprano" type walking around. How you doin???

My opinion is based on observation and communication with those who are teachers, I am not a public school teacher.

I think that the teachers' union is perhaps the most glaring example of how collective bargaining and unions have utterly failed their stated mission.  The idea behind a teachers' union is that the teachers will be able to stand up for themselves and get better pay, better benefits, and better classroom conditions in order for them to do their jobs.

The union has "negotiated" the following:

Really bad pay, less than a babysitter makes.
Decreasing benefits
Less freedom and leeway for teachers to teach
Great difficulty in getting disruptive children removed
Restrictions on problem solving and good judgement, due to demands to follow a curriculum designed to increase test scores.

The pay scale, to me, is criminal.  Teachers should make at least twice what they currently get paid, which would put them on par with prison guards.

The benefits are pretty good, compared to most, but they too are eroding.  All in all, I think the union exists for the sole purpose of keeping itself needed.  IE, make sure conditions are bad enough to where the teachers feel they would die without the union.

I believe that they even take the members' dues and fund political campaigns with them?  (Perhaps they did and were made to stop, but found a loophole....?  Tom can you shed light on this?)

Anyhow, when I look at the dedication and sacrifice teachers make, I feel like they are WAY underpaid.

District administrators, on the other hand, and grossly overpaid.

Brent

This very much depends on the particular district. Your comments would not be true about the North suburbs of Chicago where the pay is in fact remarkable. The way education is funded in the U.S will continue to ensure that inequities exist in many places.
Having said that, the evidence is not at all conclusive that money alone determines the quality of the product.
The recently published list of the top fifty shcools in Illiinois had several near the top who spent among the least (the top scoring school was indeed the biggest spender).
The futile hand-wringing about the effectiveness of teachers, to the exclusion of consideration of the fact that in so many places they are dealing with children in no way teachable is quite sad.
I place more responsibility on parents...
Verne

Good points Verne,

I am only familiar with California, and was commenting on such.  Clearly, the amount of money spent is not a guarantee of success.  If it were, we would be a nation of geniuses!

Where I am from, top teacher's pay is just over 50K per year.  This is for someone with a Masters, tenure, and summer school.  In my area, that salary couldn't afford a condominium, let alone a house.  In contrast, prision guards make 80 to 120K per year, and have similiar benefits.

I agree with you about the children being unteachable.  Why doesn't the teachers' union make an issue of this?

As a classroom volunteer, and with Suzie's involvement, I have concluded that our teachers are more dedicated, and have better equipment than ever before.  The kids, those who can speak English, are more challenging, but there is no way to discipline them now.  I vividly remember getting paddled in elementary school and even in junior high.  I would have never dreamed about talking back to a teacher, let alone the principle. 

Nowadays, however, kids will look at the teacher and say,  "#$%^ you!" knowing full well that not much can be done about it.  It isn't easy to expell a kid, unless he is caught with drugs, or gets into too many fights.  Being a disrespectful idiot is allowed and tolerated. 

Personally, I wouldn't care if half the school had to be expelled.  The quality of education and the whole tenor of the community would rise if teachers could teach to the level of the class, and weren't forced to teach to the lowest level.

Brent

You've got a problem here. I was an aide for a year in 7 & 8th special ed and BD. A student  would be suspended for calling the teacher a b****. There were definite limits on how far the disrespect could go, and how much you could disturb the class, no matter if it was LD or BD. They also knew the next step was the alternative learning school, which is one step short of juvy. (The kids in AL were frisked in the morning and had to earn  every priviledge, even recess. If need be, the student was there until they graduated from 12th grade.)

Well spelled-out rules for the high school district keeps that age group in line.  Some years, they had closed campus lunches - no one allowed off school campus, sometimes no one allowed outside (drinking beer in their cars.) If one lav became a pot hang-out, it was closed for a while.  Strict rules for membership on a sports team, etc. - one incident of drugs and they are off the team for the rest of the year.

There is a way to do it, but it has to be across the board and consistantly applied. This local public high school was limping along about 20 years ago, but learned from their mistakes.

Here, it's open campus, kids drive away for lunch, etc.  Everyone knows where the pot hangout is.  There are rules for the team, but they have to get caught first.  It's hard to get expelled from elementary school, unless you are a "good" kid.  The "at risk" kids are the ones who get away with murder, and are excused because they are so "needy."  California's schools are not doing so well.

Brent

I am really flabbergasted at some of the things some teachers have to endure from their charges.
I suspect the swiftness and severity of discipline imposed for unacceptable conduct will certainly have a great impact on the atmosphere of a school, even for problematic kids.
I have had great trouble understanding the leniency philosphy as regards thuggish conduct on the part of students, who are after all, are supposedly there to learn.
It seems as if the trampling on the rights of diligent and well-behaved students to learn in a peacable atmosphere free from disruptions takes second place to accomodating disruptive and misbehaving students.
I know people wring their hands and plaintively ask what should be done with these type of students if not still attempt to educate them. I would argue that in some cases it is simply not possible and the cost of attmpting it is too high. The question then becomes of course how and when such a dertemination is to be made...
Verne

From what I saw during that single year, the homelife is what determined the behavior of the students. Some of the other factors were whether the school got the support of the parent(s), whether the principal supported the teachers, and whether the teacher wanted to be "liked" by the students, or was there to do a job.

I still think it's a rare case that a student would not be teachable. Aside from the ESL students, many of them have serious problems at home. They can't sit in a classroom and concentrate. Their problems are too overwhelming. They bring the reality of home to school with them and can't interact normally with other students in a regular classroom. BD students are very intelligent kids, but they can't all learn in the same way. What they experience at home, and behavior they consider to be normal, is not consistent with the average classroom.

LD kids need more time to learn. Many of them have a gift of artistry, but it takes them far longer to learn Math, or remember what they just read. They aren't unteachable.

If kids aren't given the option for schooling directed toward their particular needs, you may as well enlarge juvy and and construct a moving sidewalk to their front door from each school.

We may as well fund the extra money for them at a younger age, rather than pay for their incarceration at a later date.

I just hope we don't have to go back to the way it was when I grew up. The fast learners were bored to death, the slow learners were pegged as "dumb" and "bad", and the BD's were given no options at all, and were considered to be the "lost" of society. No hope for them at all. They were usually humiliated in front of the entire class, referred to as a "lump in a bowl of gravy", etc., etc., and eventually expelled, ripe for even worse treatment by the folks. Black sheep, scapegoats.......every school district should have an alternative learning school, and I thought more of them did.

Brent,  You bring up some good issues that I will try and follow up on.  One big drain on the $ is special ed. Think about the power private schools have when it comes to problem students.  Ginger Geftakys had the liberty (And took it) to refuse services.  If a student pissed her off one time too many "Get out!"  On the other hand public education cannot refuse anyone! Anyone!!!  My first year teaching was a nightmares nightmare!  I was given a student who had major psychological problems, he was abused, he was a  drug baby. He was "oppositionaly deffiant" (he would always be against any authority figure no matter what you did.) He had ringworm!
He had pre-K reading skills.  He had a three minute attention span.  Yet  he was in my 4th grade classroom!?????  I was never given any help other than bs from the administration. Later I learned that the school district was trying to delay the inevitable.  This was getting him into a school that would provide him with what he needed, One-on-One assistance. He finally reached this level of care but not until 6th grade. This cost the district $35 grand+  (4 times the cost of a regular student) Special services are a (Fair Hearing) given for any parent who demands it!   If a school speech therapist says that "Your child doesn't qualify!" the parents can still sue and the district has to pay for the parents lawers! I have heard over and over that this is where the major amount of money is being spent.

Since it's considered unconstitutional for public schools to teach children the values of Christian parents, it logically follows that it is unconstitutional for the government to be involved with education at all.  For all practical purposes, separation of church and state must also mean the separation of education and state.

Yes, I think you've got it.

This type of thing is ruining school for more than it is worth.  It's just ONE area where things are mismanaged.

Another is the MILLIONS spent by the supervisors to take junkets in order to attend talks and view 'new' curruculae.  Please tell me why we need to buy new mathbooks every year?  They just throw the old ones away.

The district has a few lame computers, and they paid far more for them than what I could order them for from Dell. 

I could go on and on.

Brent

Ridiculous curriculum changes aside, there are students who are going to take up a portion of the budget.

I worked one-on-one as an aide with one student who was on his way out. He had just been transferred to the LD class. He needed me just to keep his attention on what was going on in the class. He had been sexually abused by his dad for 5 years, mom was a druggie and grandma and grandpa were raising him with Christian priniciples. (this was a public school)

He showed me the verses his grandma would write for him each day and the shoes grandma would buy for him.

He read at a 3rd grade level, had a gift for poetry and wanted to be a rapper.

We did what we could, but because of the way he had been treated at home, he had become paranoid and was expelled after calling the teacher a bitch and carrying a knife (to protect himself against kids who were "jealous" of him)

Kids like that are going to buck the rules and it takes a different mind-set if they are to be educated at all. In my opinion, it's going to be an aide's job, because teachers can't give enough individualized attention. The kids NEED counselling, and an aide who doesn't demand 24/7 "acceptable" language. He tried f*** you one day (behind the held-up book) but it didn't get the reaction he wanted from me, so he dropped it.

He was sent to the alternative learning school. It was the only option at that point.

If I were younger and had more energy, those are the kids I'd be working with. Aides are also very underpaid.....

Since I am working on my Masters in Special Education, I feel somewhat passionate about the topic at hand.  Especially when you start blaming special ed kids for the problems at public schools.

Dave, the IDEA laws are changing.  Parents are no longer reimbursed for legal fees.  Kids don't quallify for special services unless they function 2 standard deviations below their functional IQ unless their IQ is below 70 (I think).  So if you have an IQ of 72 and function like someone with an IQ of 72, you don't get special services.  If you are 10 and have speech problems but your IQ labels you at the level of a 3 year old and you talk like a 3 year old, you don't get speech services.

The biggest problem (as I see it) is all of the behavior and learning problems.  Like Moon was talking about.  Except in California we don't fund for individual aides.  So that means classroom teachers have to deal with these kids with some pull out help.  But you know what?  I think mixing these kids with the "regular" kids is what a compassionate, "christian" society is all about.  10% of the American population has a disability.  So should we hide it or learn to tolerate and adapt to it?  Disabilities like Autism and Aspergers are on the rise.  These are our future neighbors, possibly employees, and hopefully friends of our children.  They deserve access to a public school education as well.  We just need to revamp what schools are to fit the diversity of our population (including huge ESL populations, and the gifted who are also underserved).  Hey it's a great challenge and the reason I'm in education.  It's definately not just a job.  And I don't do it to get summers off, 'cuz special ed teachers don't.

The problems are numerous, as you all have mentioned, and it's not just the fault of special ed.

my opinion
me

Just Me.  I just want to clarify that I am not blaming the kids.  I think education is the key for our country as a whole. (Invest money now and save it later!)   My first year teaching was a "baseball-bat-over-the-head-hello"  I originally went into teaching so I could teach at "Cornerstone"  After a month teaching at Gilbert I can remember walking on campus one morning and seeing all these kids in line for their free breakfast (90%) and feeling a tremendous disdain for these 'ungrateful little brats!'.  Today it is much different. After a while you can't blame the kids. You begin to love them and see them as your own children. After a while you begin to realize that college education for 100% of these kids is not the goal here!  It is the stated ideal but in order for that to happen it would take so much more!!!!   Why because in order to get these kids to pass the state standards you must carry them across!  You get kids who come into your classroom with no motivation to even half-way try. So you have to beg them, try and contact parents, get them to stay after school 4 days a week just so you can get them to do their homework. Last year I did the "Franklin Planner" with my 6th graders!  I wrote out a 20 year plan for each kid.  For most kids it was a joke. They would say things like "Football Player"  "S.W.A.T" and so on. I took their picture in a cap and gown with a degree in their hand 2020 Phd in Paleontology etc... O.k. I'm just rambeling here but you can see what I  am saying.

GOOD NEWS Arnold has backed down from his "pension reform" !!!!! :D :D :D :D
http://www.latimes.com/

Matt, Just a comment to your post from 4/3. Anyone who spent 15+ years in the Assm could come across as sounding Shrill. Summer.l

The school district I work for has just settled our contract!!!  We were at negotiations for the past 3 years!!!!!   We fought tooth and nail! We were working "Contract" which means no volunteering or extras!   We were able to keep our health care benefits!!! While negotiating we were called some pretty nasty names by someone on our board!!! But it is true!!!  You really can fight city hall!!!!  Now we can focus more on our beloved governor!

Summer:

A comment to your most recent post:

Other people on this board were involved with the assembly for 15+ years (including myself) and are able to discuss things without being loud and obnoxious.  (shrill)

Your statement doesn't wash.

Matt