AssemblyBoard

I have a family member who is currently in the Assembly. He is a long-standing member. I am hesitant to mention his name or which assembly he belongs to. I recently learned about the events of early 2003 leading to GG being excommunicated. I have so many questions. I need help. I can either try to talk here or you can e-mail me. I have been praying for this family member for about 25 years. I am a Christian and I love this person dearly. Any suggestions?

Night Owl,

Welcome, and thanks for posting.  Suggestions?  Specifics would be impossible without more details, and only you can decide how much detail to reveal...

If you are new to this board, try just reading some of the threads to get a feel for the hearts and attitudes of the various posters.  We are mostly all former assembly people, but we are far from being cookie-cutter-alike.

Some of us have published our e-mail addresses, and any of us can be contacted by personal message via IM through this board.  This may be good if you find a strong connection with someone's point of view & want their personal counsel.

On the other hand, by posting your concerns openly, you may draw a cross-section of views that will give added dimension to your insights into the situation in question.

The call is, of course, yours alone to make.  My personal counsel is to take your time, pray for the Lord's guidance, and frame your thoughts and questions without rushing.  Then post, e-mail, or IM as you feel comfortable in doing.  God bless you in your pursuit of His will...

In Christ,
al Hartman

Those who still voluntarily associate themselves with the work initiated and cotrolled by George Geftakys, despite what has been revealed,will not be persuaded by anything you or I can offer. My suggestion is that you do your best to exemplify genuine Christian love and grace in your relationship with him, and that you pray for God to grant  liberty from this prison.  What a pity that there are people still involved with this...
Verne

Hi Night owl,
   As Al said it is up to you to let people know the name of your family member. However I would say that letting people know at least what town your relative lives in may work to help you. I don’t know if you were ever a member yourself but I can say that all the members were very close to the point of being a family and that there may be someone reading this that was close with your relative. If this person were to contact you it may turn out to be very comforting and helpful to you. I hope you get the help you need. It's not hopeless :)

Night Owl:

I too have a family member who is still in.  This is very disturbing because the group has become so much more twisted in turning it's back on real abuses and refusing to defend those who were truly abused.  Namely women.  It is a very narrow minded "good-old-boys" club at the best and an extremely corrupt cult at the worst.  My family member refuses to discuss anything with us.  He remains self-righteous and even more withdrawn.  However, there are some in our family who are able to get to him.  So little by little, hopefully, he may be moved.  We can only hope.  It took us years (decades) it may take the same for him.  In the mean time I know it is a great loss and sufferiing.

Of what I understand, there are some folks in the Assembly now who have lightened up and are not exclusive in their thinking.  They don't mind if folks go to other churches and are open to other Christians.  There are others, though, that are continuing in the same mindset of the Assembly before it fell.


By your comment, I will assume that your loved one falls in the latter group.  If you approach this person as someone who is in a bad group, they will pick that up and alienate you.  When I was in the Assembly we were conditioned to think that those who critisized the Assembly were fighting against the Testimony of God and the very work that God was doing.  When faced with this, we tended to pull up the drawbridge and be forced further into the safety of the Assembly.

I would cultivate what you have in common with this person as a fellow believer in Christ.  (After all, believe it or not, those in the Assembly are indeed Christians.)  You both pray.  You both read and discuss the Bible.  Build your relationship upon what you have in common in Christ instead of pointing out the differences in practices.  Try to be a "safe place" where this person doesn't feel defensive about the group he is involved in.  When he is ready to leave, he will then come to you because you have proven to be a consistant friend.

Thanks for all your comments! I definitely will be praying about this. And I definitely believe that my brother (ok, now you know he's my sibling) is a Christian and that the Assembly has many sincere Christian believers in it. I want to be a safe harbor for my brother. I attended a couple of Sunday all-day services in Fullerton when he first joined so I've heard GG preach. And we had dinner at his Brother's House once and I visited there a couple of times. I saw my brother go from a happy, good-natured, fun-loving college student to a sullen, distant, arrogant person. He was a brand new baby Christian when he started going to the Assembly bible studies on campus. He was looking for a church home because he was living on campus and attending college out of town.

I guess I'm a little afraid that he might read my messages here and disappear again. He told me that after reading some of the posts here, he was sickened by what he read. He said it was put together by a bunch of "malcontents." However, after spending a couple of days reading the messages on the board, I have found it to be well-monitored and fair. He has been in the Assembly longer than he was out of it, so I shouldn't be too surprised that he finds freedom offensive.

When he first joined, I wasn't prepared for the changes he underwent. He disappeared for a couple of years and we didn't hear from him. When he resurfaced, he was a totally different person. Soon after, I contacted Ronald Enroth through the Walter Martin ministry and he was kind enough to talk to me over the phone. At that time, there weren't many resources about the Assembly and I kept hitting dead ends. I am so thankful for this message board and those of you who have the courage to talk about your experiences. It really helps people like me. Thanks for your kindness. I have been praying for something like this for over 25 years. I just pray that my brother would know the Truth, and that the Truth would set him free.

Thanks again.

These words accurately describe numerous lives influenced by George and Betty Geftakys and those they trained.
They accurately describe my own metamorphosis. The thing I am now most ashamed of about my assembly days is the soul-destroying spiritual arrogance and pride so many of us developed under Geftakys' tutelage. We were taught to despise other believers who were universally dismissed as "worldly" and "carnal".
I am certain your brother does not see this change in himself.
This is one of the reasons George actively encouraged his followers to distance themselves form family.
What a tragedy it must be to see someone you love being destroyed in this manner.
The fact that some people still refuse to  see what sort of man this was and the enormity of what he perpetrated is incontestable witness to the man's infernal power. God alone can provide delivery of this sort.
I trust God will give you wisdom and grace as you seek your brother's favour in the quiet places...
Verne

All the information, the truth, about George and his assembly is readily available at www.geftakysassemlby.com (http://www.geftakysassembly.com)

There are a few things to keep in mind regarding your brother's situation:

Years ago, only a very few people knew what type of man George is, and most of them kept silent, or were effectively hidden and squelched to the members.  Many sincere people were involved in the group unknowingly...they were deceived.  Many left, but most felt guilty about it, due to the false teaching that had been taught, re-taught and re-inforced over the years.

Things grew worse, especially in Fullerton and San Luis Obispo.  People started to ask questions, which were defelected or "answered" carefully by the leadership.  The goal was to protect David Geftakys, and the "Testimony."  The membership were happy to protect the testimony, but David's erratic behavior became increasingly difficult to explain away.  When pressure was brought to bear on David, he subtly threatened to expose his father's adulteries.

This caused George to re-double his efforts to protect David, in order to protect himself.  This seemed to work until 2 big things happened.

David's abuse of his children and wife became known by a few people who took offense, and most importantly, Judy left David.

That event proved very difficult to explain away, and at that time I was writing articles on Rick Ross and MacGregor Ministries.  I began, with the help of several pastors in SLO, to attempt to address the issues in SLO, but the leaders would have none of it, and they finally excommunicated me, for telling the truth.

It was at this point that Kirk Cesaretti began to wake up, and I learned even more about the goings on behind the scenes in the leading brothers' meetings.  After a last attempt to entreat these men, again with the help of a local pastor, I decided to start the website.  I believed that if people knew what I knew, they would leave...and they did.

The fact that your brother has all this information readily available to him, and that he is free to access it discreetly, but for some reason has failed to do so....or even worse, refuses to believe it, doesn't bode well for him ever leaving this group.

As has been said, "there is none so blind as him who will not see."  People who read the info and refused to believe it have seared consciences and a under a demonic spell.  It's no longer a matter of opinion, or "he said-she said."  There is incontrovertable proof of the type of man George is, and the fact that his servants have repeatedly lied in order to protect him.  These are not confused people, they know exactly what they are doing.  They are apostates.

So, I agree with what has been said by others here.  All you can do is try to keep something in common with your brother, something fun that he likes to do.  Show him true joy and freedom, and make sure that when you are with him, he is loving life.  If, at some point in the future, he is capable of hearing the Holy Spirit, you will be there to support him.  However, I want to let you know that it won't be a happy day when your brother comes to his senses.  He will be incredibly devastated and confused and will most likely abandon his "faith," such as it is.

It was hard enough for those who recognized they were fooled when they first heard the truth.  How much harder for those who heard the truth and destroyed their consciences in order to continue on with their service to an evil man in Christs name.  That is going a tough hit to take emotionally.  Everything that they have centered their lives around is false, and they have been so arrogant and judgemental towards those can seen clearly. 

Here is an example of how bizarre things have gotten.

I have heard that at least one of the remaining assemblies, Pasadena, has begun meeting on Saturday, as a result of George's false 7th day creation teaching.  For decades, the "saints" would argue with Adventists that the church should meet on Sunday, the first day of the week, using Acts 20:7 as their proof text. 

Now, they have seen to abandon all that and do what they spoke against only a few years earlier...because George says so.  Not good, not good at all.  This, if indeed it is true, is another step down the path of spectacularly dangerous cult.  I have predicted that some really horrible things are going to take place in the remaining groups...let's hope I'm wrong.  However, this whole story is remarkably similiar to how Waco, Jonestown, Solar Temple, and Heaven's Gate all progressed.

Make no mistake about it, while in the past there were many sincere believers in the Assembly, the current members do not fall into that category.

That's my opinion.

Brent

:o :o :o How long have these "supernatural" meetings been going on?
This is quite frightening, and I believe that you are right......
Makes me doubly glad for all that you went through to get the truth out to the rest of us.

Is Betty "Under The Influence", too? What do you think is her part in this?

Chilling...(lets hope your wrong, but all indicators say your right)

That's the scary part.

Waco, and David Koresh  (Vernon Howell) started off as a zealous small group within the 7th day Adventists.  He was the "underling" of a guy named Victor Houtef, and he expanded and developed Houtef's teachings into the Waco Davidians.

Jonestown, and the "Rev." Jim Jones, began as a zealous charismatic group.  They were well within the bounds of orthodoxy doctrinally...but the Rev.  had too much influence, and things progressed, to state it mildly.  As their doctrine changed, and their allegiance to their leader strenghtened, little by little they got to the point where they could drink Koolaide. 

Marshall Applewhite and his wife began as Christian ministers.  Some of the followers who drank the vodka and pills and placed the plastic bags over their heads in order to meet the spaceship were with them when they were "christians."   Certain things changed over the years, and some of their beliefs strayed from orthodox Christianity...

Geftakys began as a Christian group, and then developed some strange teachings, like 7th day creation, etc.

Am I saying that these groups and the Assembly are identical?  Certainly not.  However, the early versions of these groups are remarkably similiar to the where the Assembly is now.  One of the major differences is that George is pretty old.  If he were younger, I would be even more worried.  However, there is always Scott Testa and Jim McCallister, the latter apparently has enough "vision" to begin meeting on Saturday, in honor of George.

It's one thing to meet on Saturday because it's the Sabbath.  While I don't agree with it, I don't see it as being a huge problem.  The trouble with what is allegedly going on with the current groups is that they are willing to abandon any conviction they have about the Bible in order to adopt what George says.  Furthermore, there were willing to adopt a blatant preferential, double standard with regard to George's adultery, in clear contratdiction to what the scriptures say, and in clear contradiction to the stand they had taken with others in the past.  It is this willingness to compromise principle and place George's views over and above the plain language in the Bible that worries me so much.  The pattern is there, and no one will argue that they are headed the right direction.  Neither do I have any confidence that "The Lord will speak to them."  God already yelled the truth at them, and they willfully plugged their ears and told bold-faced lies in response.

Unfortunately, these types of groups are a dime a dozen, and come from all different backgrounds.  The pattern is the same, as are the results.  Can someone tell me why it's any different with the Assembly?

Brent

That's right. It's the pattern. 

And he/they will be claiming "persecution".

The common theme in all these cases is that the men leading these groups indulged in gross sin, and the men around them charged with responsibility were too insipid and weak to withstand them.
People do not sin because of wrong doctrine, rather wrong doctrine more often is promulgated by men living lives of compromise and who wish to justify their apostasy.


Are you sure about this? Unquestionably there were Christian people involved in the assemblies but I believe the jury is still out on the condition of George's soul. If he indeed is an unbeliever, and based on his conduct I don't see how we can Scripturally conclude otherwise, could one legtimately call what he started "Christian"?
I was recently taling with Tom Knox about how he observed changes in the ministry over time but the presumption that George was ever anything other than what we now see him to be may be unwarranted.
The man is a fine actor. We were all terribly lacking in discernment and that is most likely what changed with time.
Of course the man's transgression became more obvious in the latter years, but it is my opinoin that he was a devil from the beginning.

Verne

p.s George really reminds me of the warning of Paul in 1 corinthians 9.
It is a tragic picture of a person going full out all around the race track, only to get to the finish line and discover all the time they had bee nrunning outside the markers. Was there effort? Yes.
Was there perhaps even great skill? Yes! Were many possibly impressed? No doubt.
None of that would in any way change the fact at the end.
We have had people on this BB making stunningly foolish claims about what George Geftakys built.
It takes an incredible level of spiritual denseness for anyone at this point, not to have figured out that GEORGE GEFTAKYS HAS BEEN DISQUALIFIED!

We are in agreement here Verne.  I won't argue that George is saved anymore than I will argue that David Koresh was saved, although both claimed they were.  Both also claimed to be "The Lord's Servant," and both were enabled by weak, stupid men.

What I mean by saying that these groups started off as Christian is that there were Christian members, and that the doctrine and practices were undoubtedly under the umbrella of Christianity...more so at the beginning.   Over the years, things progressed and morphed into what they have become.

Here is an example of what could have happened, and what may happen in the future.

Pat Schout, a decent guy in every respect, married a good deal of money.  In 1999, while under Betty's influence, he built a 'compound' in Charleston, at great personal expense, that had a dual purpose.  It was to be a meeting facility for the midwest saints, as well as a Y2K safety zone.  Some of you will remember that at the top of the list of prayer requests for many gatherings was "emergency" preparedness, by which they meant Y2K.  I clearly remember a converasation I had with Pat, in which he shared with me a paper by Ed Yardini, on what was going to happen during Y2K.  He implored me to prepare for this, and shared with me what he was doing.  I thought he was nuts....and it turns out he was.

At the time, in SLO, people were storing water, raising rabbits and preparing for disaster, all under Betty's guidance.  One brother vigorously entreated me to be responsible and store up emergency food and gold.   I told him,  "if things really do crash, what good is gold going to be?  The banks and financial markets won't function, and you can't eat or drink gold."  I felt like my swimming pool, my backpacking filter, and our pantry was probably good enough...

The point is that people were ready to take extreme action because the leader indicated it was a good idea.  The Assembly was far from alone in this, there were plenty of kooks in those days, but Pat's compound was tragic, in my opinion.

So, if the George-loyal groups are even more close-knit, and more extreme in their views, and more detached from reality, under an even stronger persecution complex, it isn't a big leap to some sort of extreme action.  On the contrary, it is predictable and expected.  How fun and exciting to live just like one of the groups in Pilgrim Church!  How wonderful to be persecuted by the "world church" just like the Moravian Brethren!

I'm sorry to say that with the groups that remain loyal to George, the sky is the limit.  I wouldn't be surprised by anything with these people, with the exception that they come to their senses and repent.  That would indeed surprise me, and I would be extremely happy.  Unfortunately, it just doesn't happen much.

Brent

Wow This is all really creepy. Funny that you should all see this now. I remember my mom saying she wouldn’t “drink the punch” all the time even before we moved from SLO to Morro Bay. Hope your wrong but it wouldn’t surprise me to hear about all of them on the news in the next few years.

Hi Becca,

I am not just seeing this now, I have communicated things like this for several years.  I just thought I would re-visit it, in light of some of the recent discussion.  Your mom's comment about the punch was pretty insightful.  She knew what was going on.

Power hungry cult leaders can never be satisfied with a normal life.  It seems that they always want to go down in a blaze of glory, and nothing is so glorious as seeing one's followers willingly end their lives as an act of fear and respect towards oneself.  At least, in their sick minds this is the sincerest compliment, and the ulitmate self validation.

I won't be at all surprised to hear about them in the news either.

Brent

Back when Howard Magnuson inherited his farm from (I think) his grandfather, G and B made a big deal out of it.

There was talk of a "refuge" from persecution.  Betty told us to avoid speaking of its location in letters.  Of course, it had to be an organic farm as well.

Seems the paranoia was at work at least as far back as the 1980's.

BTW, anyone ever hear what they did with GG's mansion in Guadalajara?

Thomas Maddux

Do you mean the Casa de Sion in Cuernavaca?  I don't know anything about a house in Guadalajara.

The Casa de Sion is owned by Marta Velasco, and was purchased and built by the saints, under George's urging.  They even put a nice library on the top floor for our brother, when he visited.

I understand from someone who lived in it, and helped build it, that it is worth about 2 million dollars.

I have made it clear that I want my money back when it sells.  I didn't give the Velasco's a private donation for their real estate speculation, and I see no reason why they should make all the profit, when others put up cash as well.  I think Dave Zach is perhaps the largest donor.

Anyhow, the desire to have a compound for extreme times has been present for some time.  Betty seems to be the main mover behind this sort of thing.

Brent

Al Hartman told me that I appear to have a mental problem, and that I am not giving Nightowl good, encouraging words, words that reflect the positive message of the Gospel of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

He says that my words may cause Nightowl to "buckle under despair."  Furthermore, Al states that I most likely fear that I have some psychological problems.

So, Nightowl, if you read this, please consult with Al Hartman, so that you don't buckle under despair.  I may be telling the truth, but in doing so I have neglected to proclaim the "good news of redemption in Christ." 

I assumed that you were a Christian and that you knew all this.  I also assumed that your head was on pretty straight, because of what you said.  But Al is worried that in my disturbed state I might cause you pain, or even worse despair.

So, get a second opinion from someone else regarding what I say.  Al Hartman is a really sensitive guy who really cares, and he would be glad to share with your the exceeding greatness of love and mercy that can be found in Our Lord Jesus Christ.

The reason I didn't go on like this is because I was talking about the groups loyal to GG, which is a quite different topic.

Al, you should chime in here and put me in my place, for all of our sakes.

I won't paint the groups currently loyal to George Geftakys in any way that is positive, for the sole reason that I think they are a dangerous cult. 

I stand by my original statement where I say that you should spend as much time as possible with your brother, and each time you do it should be really fun and refreshing.  Then, should he have doubts about his involvement, you will be a natural contact.   However, don't think that it's going to be a happy day when he gets out.  He will be a wreck.

Al will tell you, like he told me,  "Christ is the Great Physician, concerened with symptomatic pain, and causative disease."  I guess he means that things might not be so bleak for your brother.  Hopefully, Al is correct.  However, history has shown clearly that this is not the case.  Even Al will tell you that he struggled for years after leaving the Assembly.


Brent

Brent, I believe what your saying is True. For anyone to suggest that you WATER the truth down is wrong and its a dis-service to all. The Assm is clearly off-course. (7th day,and much more). As someone said in an earlier post to night-owl we all pray read the bible etc, well that does'nt make you a Christian. They sang hymns and worshipped too. But I believe they're in danger. One thing is GG could be slowed down by his age, yet this could also excellerate the inevitable.   summer ( the group is absolutly repulsive )

thanks Summer,

I agree.  To make light of the groups loyal to GG is error, in my opinion. 


What may be coming across in my posts on this topic is my frustration with people who aren't willing to call the group what it is.  It's a cult, period.

I don't mean Fullerton, or one of the others that has denounced George, I specifically refer to the groups that are currently loyal to George.

The people in those groups pray more, read their bibles more, and speak more God talk and religious blather than anyone I am aware of.  What makes anyone think that we can help them?  They are the blindest of the blind.

Brent

If the groups so benign as some seem to think, then whats wrong with popping-in for a visit to Pasadena on saturday and spend All Day for the Lord with the brethren, your Christian, there Christian, you could all have sweet fellowship with a big dose of False Doctrine. Is there anything wrong with that?    Sum (remember: The Devils believe and tremble)

Excuse me...???!!!
Please tell me that you misunderstood an attempt at humor, Brent...

I agree that Nightowl seems to be a big boy.
Let me whisper a secret this to all would-be Geftakys apologists:

we still do not know the full extent of the damage!!!

How can those of us who know what happened help but sympathise on hearing someone like Nightowl's perspective?
Contrary to Al's notion of the kind of straight no-nonsense talk about that era being somehow indicative of some sort of psychological problem, I would argue that it is the folk who refuse to undergo that process who will probably never recover...
Verne

Nope, it was not humor.  He wrote me a very serious "entreaty" about how he was worried that Nightowl would "buckle under a weight of despair," as a result of my words.  He also indicated that he was worried about me and thought I had psychological problems.  He wasn't kidding, and although I laughed, I really didn't think it was funny.

Honestly, I've had it with Assembly-speak, and the related dialects spoken by sissified people everywhere.  I started a thread about it.

Brent

I know that I would not be at all welcome to do so.  However, I would love it if someone would go there and check it out.  What fun! 

It goes like this after pre-prayer:

Praise the Lord saints!  What do we say in this place?  Saturday is all day for The Lord!

Greet one another!  Greet the visitor!  And all the lively ones said, "Praise the Lord!"

Then, after the morning ministry:

"We'll see you all after outreach, at 2:30 for pre-prayer.  Pray for our brother's preparation, that we would hear a word in season.  [do you have a hymn, brother?]  Let's all stand and sing hymn number 69, "Lead on oh King Eternal....."

I digress.

Brent

and if your the Lucky one you can rub Goerges feet.

I would have to agree with Summer that Gorges age is likely to speed things along. He is not a man I see laying down quietly and letting go. He needs to feel like he won. He needs to feel that he is taking something with him. Like he can show up in heaven and say “look God. I brought your faithful followers with me. The end times are near and I couldn’t leave them down there in these dark days without my wise guiding hand” ::)  
I have to say that this wasn’t really the topic at the start but things have got interesting and informative. And Brent, you don’t have any more head issues than the rest of us. Actually after reading a lot of discussions here you seem to be one of the more down to earth people who doesn’t feel that they have to validate their point by adding things like “the gracious love and mercy of Our Lord Jesus Christ”

Praise the Lord Sister! 

I thank God that you noticed my down-to-earthness!  Praise His Name!! :o

I have been really crying out to God for increase in this area, and just this morning He gave me a precious promise!  Your mentioning it has just validated my suspicion....God is doing a deep inward work in me in order to make me more down-to-earth. 8)

It's getting thick in here....

We should keep the discussion on track a little better.

Brent

Actually I don't think you have gone off-topic - you have answered at least one question I was going to ask. And that is: What is it about the Assembly that people find so attractive? The tendency for me at first when my brother joined was, "Where did I go wrong? How did I fail him?" As if I had that much control over him. I think at least one thing he was looking for was a family. Not that he didn't come from a good family, but definitely one that didn't take him seriously enough. And if there's one thing I can tell here from reading everybody's posts, you were (and continue to be) a community. And I think my brother was craving something like that.

Another thing I think he found attractive is that he tends to be lazy, and for the first time he was being given limits and motivation and (albeit extreme) boundaries. I think he really grativated towards that, too. Plus the fact that he thought he had found a Book of Acts kind of church - returning to the basics, the early church. From time to time he would express concerns over things people said or did, but he was willing to give all of that up to be a part of what was happening.

And thanks Al for your concern - I totally understand and appreciate it. My hope is in Christ, not in my brother's emancipation - and He knows what's best for my brother. So I won't lose hope in the One who gives me hope! And my brother is definitely worth all of the prayer and heartache. You guys are awesome! And we serve an awesome God.

And another thing - I find it particularly interesting that you mention Jonestown and David Koresh. When I first tried researching the Assembly, one of the people I talked to who worked for a ministry whose focus was educating people on cults and aberrant churches, he mentioned that the Assembly, while doctrinally sound, had all the potential for becoming a Jonestown. So I was hearing it even back then. Actually, practically everyone I talked to in my research days began by saying they thought the Assembly was doctrinally sound, but aberrational and cult-like.

Oh yeah, and ANOTHER thing - I've already spent (approximately) 25 years wondering whether he would ever leave, without any encouragement. (He has lightened up slightly over the years tho', I must say.) And now within the past week I learn that the original Assembly leadership has fallen?? God is doing a work, and He (ultimately) finishes what He starts. I don't know how that all pans out for my brother, but I am reminded of the miraculous changes that took place inside the Worldwide Church of God.

We should have addressed each other as 'Comrade' rather than 'Brother/Sister' eh?? ;)


Herein lies the deception of the "Book of Acts kind of church - returning to the basics, the early church".  The Book of Acts church had 3000 souls added in one day (Acts 2:41), and Acts 5:14 ... multitudes of men and women, were constantly added to their number;.  We never saw this kind of growth in the assemblies.


Out of the mouth of non-assemblyites.  At least no assemblyite can call you a disgruntled ex-assemblyite for calling their "precious" a cult.

Marcia

Just a comment on what makes it so attractive: You've go to remember alot of the attendee's started as young kids off of college campus. For instance my friend met them on campus, she invited me to a Bible Study I had just been Baptized at a well known church. (age 19) What happens is very subtle, you go, then someone there "goes out to you" taking you under their wing so to speak, they invite you to dinner,no big deal, then later on its for Sunday worship. You know nothing about pre-prayer, or head-coverings til your in the thick of it, if you don't wear the head-covering your seen as rebellious, or un-submitted what-ever, as weird as it is, your under no pressure at all in the beginning. Then you start participating like getting into the word and doing a chapter summery, great feels good to share, then at a prayer meeting you have some requests, and so, on. You meet others who see how the Lord is speaking to you, working in your lfe, your encouraged not to sell-out or compromise your walk. Plus then almost everyone is asking how your walk with the Lord is and Are you rejoicing? Iys all very manipulative.  I wanted to leave my first Sunday meeting I'd commuted with a sister she never told me about the long day. I said I'd wait in the park, where we had lunch, she persuaded me to stay that afternoon because GG was in the book of Daniel and she reminded me how much I liked prophecy. Also a few months later I went to the LB in charge of my area and told him I was leaving,( my friend and I had found a cult article in the newspaper that was errily similar to the Assm) and he talked me into staying with words like Well is'nt this where God led you and hang-on new workers are arriving soon. Also GG was quite the Talker, he had stories, illustrations etc. Well you did say you visited so you know. So its easier to woe younger naive kids in their late teens early twentys this has ben the M.O. from the beginning.

Are you from the Ottawa assembly, summer ?? ;)

Great to have you back on board. 8)

God bless,
Marcia

Thanks Marcia. I'm not from Ottawa. I'm an LA Woman first and last. Summer.

Just to add a person needs to take full-responsibility for their involvement, although I felt talked into staying no-one made me stay. I had questions for a while and I felt if I asked them, I already knew what the answers would be. When things became truly alarming in a sisters house I raised questions, and was immediatly on the outs, eventually I moved into my own place. Once moved into a bro/ or sis house your really on a treadmill llifestyle work, meetings, meals, and meetings, no t.v. allowed. But in the down time I could really think and read lots of books, and observe what was going on, this knawing feeling that something just is'nt right, was always there. I will pray your Brother wakes-up, Several on board were involved for 20+ years and they managed to leave.  summer.

I imagine many who got involved with this scheme to entrap others were sincere and meant well.
Nonetheless, it was a well-crafted system for recruitment of the unwary. Based on what we now know about George Geftakys, any one still trying to make the case that he was ever anything other than a con man and a charlatan needs to have their head examined. This is a painful reality. There are still some folk who think that at some point George was really serving God and I have heard some say that he even helped them with their Christian walk.
Those who want to believe such a thing are certainly welcome to their opinion.
My opinion is that a true shepherd of God does not undergo this sort of metamorphosis, Kafka's fancy tale notwithstanding.
George Geftakys was always a cockroach. We just were not discerning enough to tell it. Sadly many were, but choose to remain silent and so the rest of us had to pay the price for their betrayal.
Verne

Thanks to everyone and their extremely helpful comments! Brent, thanks for all of your down-to-earth posts.

P.S. I seem to have rated a post on SWTE.

Congratulations!

On another note, is your brother currently in an Assembly that receives George, or one of the others?

There is a big difference, and although I don't recommend either as a place to grow, certainly the former is much, much worse than the latter.

I don't think that there is any worry about the groups that have ex-communicated George are going to get Waco...but it's another matter altogether for the others.

Brent

What's that?  :)
Verne

p.s. I just can't resist. Let's see...let me guess - all those bitter, hate-filled, whining cry-babies over on AB rather than telling you how you ought to unconditionally forgive and forget everything vile and vicious that was ever done against you, to simply grow up and take responsibility for not preventig yourself from being spiritually raped by men calling themselves shepherds, to simply move on with your life and continue to honor the Lord's servant for we are all really his spiritual children and we have so much to thank him for...etc. etc. etc... are encouraging you not to love but to be vindictive, bitter and spiteful...am I close?  :)
Verne

Verne, Take a step further on the fringes/edges of the cliff, and imagine your girls fresh into college telling you about the "studies in the new testament" they've been attending, and sister's houses, you get the picture. Time to switch to de-cafe I would think. Summer. p.s. I really liked your look at I cor 9 and the running out-side of the track.

My girls are a real tender spot. I once told my wife the only time she would have to visit me in jail is if anyone put thier grubby hands on either one of them...  :)
Having said that, my goal is by the time they are college age, we would have taught them well enough to spot a cretin like Geftakys and people like him, a mile distant...
Verne

That's the biggest way I failed him. I was nowhere near discerning enough. It's like I saw, but I didn't see.

It is really hard to understand and discern these things for people who have never experienced them.  For the typical new convert, the first few months actually seem positive.  They are taught to be on time, usually give up drinking and other moral failings, and for many it is the first time they have family and friends.  The closeness of the community is really nice....at first.

All of this looks good to an observer...at first.

You just don't expect a man who carries around a really nice bible, who is always praying, counseling, preaching and travelling to minister the "Heavenly Vision" to be a pervert.  It's tough to realize that today, he is wearing a suit and preaching something he plagiarized from a real pastor, but last night he was engaging in kinky anal sex with a woman who he isn't married to.  It's hard to see that coming.

The vast majority of members, once they were slapped awake and had cold water poured on them, did the right thing and got out of dodge and sent George packing. 

However, the current bunch who still follows him are in real trouble.  I honestly believe that they could eyewitness George or one of their leaders committ a horrible crime and then deny it ever happened.  They are totally blinded and have completely defiled, non-functional consciences.  Night Owl, the man you spoke with who told you that it had all the makings of JonesTown was right on the money.

Brent

Verne, I have No Dought that you will adequetly warn them. My Daughter will most-likely bump into them in the fall, and it will be over my dead body she will get involved with them. I would go in and pull her out of the group,were she to meet up with them. Remember they're just Christians going out witnessing for the Lord, etc. (very subtle)  Summer.

Brent, your comments on the assemblies still loyal to George are right on.  However, I think there are some assemblies which have "renounced George", yet are still just as dangerous.  For instance, can anyone tell what's going on now in Placentia?

Clarence Thompson

Hi Clarence!  Good to see you here.

I really have no idea what is going on in Placentia, except that I hear Tim G. has now left Fullerton and is in Placentia. 

I wouldn't be surprised if they gravitated back towards George, but I have no reason to believe that they have done so.  As for them being as dangerous, I disagree.  It is one thing to be a controlling nut, and to derive one's identity from a small church that is under one's control---Jack Hansen.

It is quite another to have all of that, and ignore the plain truth about a man like George and continue to serve him God's name.  That takes it to another level all together.

Sure, there is enough George in some of these guys for them to get really bad, but I am not aware that they have done so.

I really think SF, Pasadena, Sacramento, and possibly West LA are far worse.

Brent

Brent, If you get your re-fund/proceeds let me know. I'm thinkin of filing my own class action law-suit for Fraud and Damages. I'd sure like to see Judas/GG on the witness stand. I don't consider him a believer, I think this was all a charade to bank-roll his lifestyle. Others can do whatever they want, it makes no difference to me.  Summer.

the only way I am going to get a refund is if Marta and Marcos Velasco decide to sell the property and give me my money back.  They are under no obligation to do so, as far as I know.

Would it be right for them to re-pay their investors?  Yes, it sure would.  However, doing the right thing has never been the main point of the Assembly has it?

Brent

You could lay claim to title through a lien, if your in a partnership agreement (forsing the sale, or they could buy you out) Course Mexican Law is different, so I'm sure an attorney would know for sure. Also I think they used to have 99 year leases fo non-citizens, perhaps thats why its in the Velacos name. At any rate if you do lay claim, and the place has a wacko/waco scene there you could be liable. So walking away may be the best thing. I guess its really not my business.  Summer

Hi Night Owl,

  You are the kind of reader that this BB can really help.  The sources that Brent mentioned you will find helpful as well.

  I agree with Brent that we must make a difference between the groups who still associate with GG and those who have excommunicated him.  If he's with the "7th day creation group" (incredible ???) chances are you will not be able to have any kind of inroad to entreat him.  Prayer and hoping he comes out are your only recourse.

  The groups that no longer associate with GG, but still carry on his "vision", can do damage to your family member as well.  Bad religion, though not a full blown Jonestown, has a subtle destructive power upon a soul as well.  But, you probably have a better chance at having access to him.

  I would like to recommend that you read, "The Subtle Power Of Spiritual Abuse" which was not written about cults, but about your local bible believing church on the corner.  This is the best book I have ever read in giving a deeper understanding of what is going on to your family member in this group.  The book was written by a Pastor and professional counselor who inherited an abusive church.

  However, there are some former leaders who have left the group and now attend local evangelical churches!  They refuse to associate with "dissaffected" former members and blame their members for the collaspe of their local groups!  They take their poison with them into the local Christian community.  Leaving is not a guarantee that they have faced what was formed in their soul from being in the group, and especially as a leader in it.

  You have probably noticed when trying to talk to him that he will not accept any "negative" discussion, because he has been programmed to reject anything not supportive of the group as being "of the devil."

  Since the discussion of erroneous teaching and practices of the group are the key for his deliverance this creates a problem.  One family hired a deprogrammer to get their son back from the Santa Barbara Asssembly---- he was successfully delivered ---and he has visited this BB to tell his story.

  The important thing for you to try is to keep up some kind of relationship with him.  Even if you don't bring up the Assembly at all, it provides an opportunity for him to see an alternative to what he's seeing in the group.  Brent's advice about doing something fun with him, and outside of a religious context, is a good idea.

  As most of us look back on our time in the group we all had little wake-up calls that caused us to think.  He may seem like a lost cause, but the time that you spend with him can make a big difference, even if you're just playing golf.

  Yes, it is sad but very true, that leaving the group is a very dangerous moment for members, but of course staying in the group is worse.  Sometimes the departing member discovers that they really had no personal faith in Christ at all, and just drift away into the world.

  Others have a great deal of confusion because they thought God was leading them in the Assembly, and don't understand how they could have been deceived.  They have difficulty trusting their own, and others, convictions as to what God would have them do.  If I was tricked once I could be again", is their fear!

  This is where you will be the most help to him, and it could well be that your participation here will help you in that effort.  I pray that there will be a happy outcome to your Family Quandry and that we can be a help to you.

                                          God Bless,  Mark C.

   

 

Hi Mark - rest assured you guys have been a HUGE help to me this past week. I can't thank you enough. And I read Brian Steele's de-programming story last night with great interest. I've just been praying that God would help me disseminate all this because it's been too much information (TMI! TMI!)  and I can't carry it all. It's a lot to take in and it's pretty overwhelming right now. I am just so grateful that He led me to you guys. Thanks for your patience with me.

P.S. Would someone mind expanding on the "7th day creation" thing for me? It's something I'm not familiar with - is there a post here already you can point me to?

www.geftakysassembly.com/Articles/TeachingPractice/CreativeTheology.htm (http://www.geftakysassembly.com/Articles/TeachingPractice/CreativeTheology.htm)
www.assemblyboard.com/index.php?topic=399.msg9811#msg9811 (http://www.assemblyboard.com/index.php?topic=399.msg9811#msg9811)

Marcia

Thanks, Marcia! Love the penguins, btw.

Night Owl, it's kinda like listening to ministry or attending a Bible study-- whether you take notes or not, you can't retain it all.  You can print the posts, or save them to disk, but it really isn't important that you grasp it all perfectly & at once.  In fact it's impossible.  The Lord graciously gives us what we need when we need it, and if we ask Him to, He will lead us in the assimilation of it, according to His design.

But I know that you already understand this, because right after pleading TMI, you asked for more! :D  You're doing great! ;)

al