- WELFARE MYTHS

APRIL 30

Is there a difference between welfare in the states than welfare in Canada.

Do they have workfare?

What are some of those myths on that web site than is really a myth?

Ontario Works , which is the province of Ontario Welfare, is no myth and no joke?

If you do not obey their rules of compliance, your support of any financial survival is cut off.
You are not allow to own life insurance, or save for your child's education. They would rather se you in permanent debt that aid you out of the system.

What about the job market in some areas? In areas where the type of jobs and the hours available doesnt allow you to get beyond the less than survival financially..

In Ontario. anywhere in Ontario. A single person is only entitled to $535 per month to live on.
If you rent exceeds that ...no other money is available.

There can be social housing rent, plus cost of heating your home with gas, then hydro, and then cost of water, plus social housing lease requires that you have liability fire insurance, plus your phone, and groceries, and equipement to upkeep your home.

There are people who drink and smoke there support away, in lieu of feeding their children.
But that percentage of people is around 10 %.

There are jobs out there, but usually part time minimum wage jobs, and if you are a single person, you are only able to make about $100 before Ontario Works takes off dollar per dollar off your welfare support cheque.
It is not just the financial support, Ontario Works there is a drug card, that helps pays for prescriptions for people who have an illness to keep going day by day.
But if you get beyond the $535 dollar limit, the drug benefit is cut off. And if you only make about $600 per month, and the cost of medication is too great, what goes, the medication, then the ability to work, and the vicious cycle starts all over again.

Before any one says welfare people are bums, and lazy. Maybe the system needs to be taken a look at, to see how trapped people become in the endless cycle of poverty that is near impossible to escape from. The older the person gets, the more unlikely that escape from
system becomes nil.

This is just one province of Canada that doesnt this. There are 9 other provinces and 3 territories that have different rules.

I dont know how this compares to the 50 separate states .

Lenore

: LENORE April 30, 2005, 10:24:06 PM

April 30:

Then Brent: You recent me.

Lenore

Well,

do you have a job? What have you done to try to escape welfare life? Do you have a medical disability?

My mom and dad divorced when I was young, and my mom worked. She got a small amount of help from my dad, but not near enough to allow her to stay home, so she worked hard. (she didn't have any more kids, since she wasn't married)

We were never on welfare, and didn't know anyone on welfare, but we were poor for a while.

I know there are a few hard luck cases on welfare, but on the whole that's not the case.

I have a tremendous amount of respect for Mexican illegals. They come over here and work hard, as well as sponge off the system. That's one better than just mooching and not working. When we bought our last car, a Mexican family was there, mom, dad, five kids....and they paid cash for a diesel pickup. It was obvious that these people worked for a living. I was impressed.

On the other hand, I have patients who are on welfare, who pay for their children with medical, get food stamps and housing, and even education all paid for. (they also have cable TV, and smoke cigarrettes at 3 bucks a pack.)

They have a lawsuit against the one employer they had in the last 5 years, and are trying to get someone to make them disabled so they can get on Social Security. I'm not talking about one or two people, but several, AND ITS A PATTERN.

The number one employer in our county is the government. I know a dozen or so people who work in social services, (christians) and they assure me that the vast majority of people on wefare in this county are:

lazy
overweight
substance abusers
immoral (lots of different dads for their bastard children)
liars
totally ungrateful
murderer (several tax-payor purchased abortions)

I repeat, I hate welfare, and i resent the people who are on it.

Sorry Lenore, that's how it looks on my side of the fence.

If your story is different, I'd love to be put in my place.

Brent

: LENORE April 30, 2005, 10:59:48 PM

The job market here in Arnprior is limited. There is only part time work or contact work available.
The employer around here, the factories which is the only possibilities for full time employement, at a decent pay, is almost none existent.

My job right now is to do what I can to recover as much as I can.
Which is trips to the psychriatist, support groups , programs at the Community Mental Health Center which I frequently am there.
I take workshops as the opportunity arrive.

I do not sit at home, doing nothing. As my post on Daily Chatting will verify.
I am busy.
As for my weight, I was 300 pounds prior to Christmas , I am 285, I walk all over town several times a week. I am taking Yoga, and I go to the gym, and go to the pool to swim, SO I am becoming fit despite of my weight.

I am involved in my church, volunteering my time.

I dont drive, so getting to the city to look for work , takes planning, I dont speak French.

I can type, I am a trained typist I worked in the government prior to my divorced.
I worked in an ANimal Hospital, I worked at McDonald's, and I worked at a drug Store.

I volunteers at my kids school, I worked at the local cable tv station, I volunteers at my daughtes girl guides organization,
I worked clean up a elderly person room, at a local retirement center.

SO do I follow the sterotyping that you have of welfare receipients.
Because we all do not fit the mold.

Ok Lenore,

read carefully, please

My wife does alot of that stuff, gym, school volunteer, etc. She can do all of this because she doesn't have to work and has time.

You on the other hand do not have time to do all that stuff. You need to work. If you can do Yoga, you can make pizza, which brings me to my next point.

I will put you up in an apartment, here in Atascadero CA. I will also get you a job working for Dominoes Pizza. As soon as you can drive you can make well over twenty dollars an hour, which would be enough to pay for the apartment, etc. If you can't drive, but are willing to work hard and learn, you can make good money as a manager. Also, you could work at WalMart, Kohls, Target any number of places....if you really want to. Your kids can find work around here too, perhaps in the same areas.

You won't have time for self-esteem courses, Long posts on the BB, cable TV or support groups, because you will have to work. If it doesn't work out, I'll pay for you to fly back to Ontario. You can get your medication and stuff here too, I believe, but you will have to look into that. You most certainly could get foodstamps to help you out initially, but free pizza and salads is also helpful.

You must get yourself out here, and if you are serious, Ill have an apartment ready for you to move in to, as well as the job. Just give me some notice. Again, if it doesn't work, I'll pay for you to get back to Ontario.

I bet that there might even be a few other people on the BB who would pitch in to help you, but it is totally up to them.

What do you say?

Brent

: LENORE April 30, 2005, 11:42:45 PM

What about the work visa? What about my citizenship? How can I get a job without a green card? I am Canadian remember?

You'd have to check into that, but again, a job would be here waiting for you. The owner of several of the local dominoes is one of my best friends and a poker buddy.

I also can get you a nice house, not just an apartment. I made a call to someone I know who wants to rent to a Christian family. I'll take care of it.

What about my age? What about my weight? What about the language I dont speak Spanish?

If your parents are in their late seventies, you are probably about the same age as me. I work. My friend, who owns the place is 46. He works too. I know people who are overweight who work, you wouldn't be the only one. English is spoken here.

My girls will have to go in to debt to receive a college education, the welfare system do not pay for that here.

I paid for my own college. I thought it would be a good investment in my future. I had to take out loans, get grants and scholarships...and I even worked for money. It was quite a gamble, but it paid off.

I'm not going to overcome any barriers for you. I'll just provide a job and a nice house. That ain't bad.

If you think it's too risky, or that your support groups and bowling and yoga and time spent chatting with ladies in the cafeteria or Sunday school lesson planning, and WELFARE is a better deal, then you should stay put.

Welfare is giving you a bunch stuff that I won't give you. I won't subsidize your bowling, or pay for a support group. Just a house and a job. I'm just a private citizen!

I'll just say this. If you didn't waste so much time going to support groups, planning sunday school lessons, having breakfast and lunch and doing yoga, you could work.

If you can't find a job there, you should move to a place where you can find a job.

Brent

: lenore May 01, 2005, 12:45:48 AM

Thanks but no thanks.

I dont think I will get the support I will require?

This is also a good by to a place where I know longer feel the support or encouragment.

Only condemnation and scorn.

GOOD BYE. IT WAS FUN FOR A SEASON.

I hope God will not be too harsh with your attitude at my expense.

I meant every word I said, especially the part about the job and the house. I was even prepared to help her get her drivers license, if she ever made it out here. Canadians come here all the time, and if she had a job she could get a green card pretty easy. (she probably could have worked without the card...but that's another matter entirely.) There would have been no strings attached, and I would have given her a return ticket on her arrival. I am also quite confident that she would have found all kinds of support from believers here.

My thinking was that if I was going to go off on how much I hate welfare, I should at least back up my words with action. I think a job and a house is pretty good deal, certainly much better than what welfare is offering. I meant every word, and my wife almost passed out when I explained it to her.

However, as much as I wanted to help Lenore in doing this, I was 99.9% sure she wouldn't do it. Like most welfare types, she is dependent and powerless, thanks to welfare and too many people coddling her and telling her it's OK. It isn't. Again, if she can do cooking classes, bowling, yoga and 30 minute walks, she can make pizza! (My friend has hired many down-on-their-luck types and some of them have done really well. Most of them simply end up getting caught stealing, however. I didn't have this concern with Lenore.)

Some people on this forum like to gush about love and fellowship. I'm all for it, but action speaks louder than words. I've been agonizing over Lenore's state for some months, and never responded to one of her posts, ever, until she said I was like Hitler, after she totally misread me. Lenore needed about 99 times less god-talk and 100 times more, "walk the talk" encouragement.

I would read about one of her weeks on "Daily Chatting," and would sit in stunned disbelief at what she did all day. When she posted on the welfare thread, I knew it was time to say something.

I totally agree with Suzie's post, and think it was very supportive for someone who needed a good kick in the butt. Lenore claims she's not getting the support or encouragement here that she needs. Well, a nice house and a job is pretty good support for a person who complains about how hard it is on welfare. The last thing she needed was more "support." She needs to actually do something with herself,the part about the brie and chowder notwithstanding. The last thing she needs is to have people telling her she's doing fine.

I don't know too many people that would be willing to do what I offered. Oprah Winfrey did exactly this....and every single one of the lazy welfare people squandered their wealth and opportunity and landed right on their backsides again.

I'm sure some might think I'm cruel, or should have been more sensitive, but I still think the Bible is pretty clear about all of this. I'm confident many of you can quote verses that pertain to this.

The Bible says we should be willing to help out a brother or sister. Well, like I mentioned below, I do that often. Let me assure you, I was absolutely committed to doing exactly what I said I would do, and furthermore, I have the means to do it. I would have been happy to do it. If that isn't helping out a sister, I don't know what is. Certainly telling her she is OK isn't helping her one bit. >:( Isn't that just saying, "Depart, be warm and filled?"

Support and encouragement in the Christian sense is totally at odds with welfare and dependency.

At least now she'll have more time to look for a part-time job typing, since she'll not be typing here.

I'm sorry for you Lenore, but I'm not going to coddle you. Your week is already filled with activities and affirmation. You don't need it, and it's not doing you any good whatsoever.

I think this proves my point about welfare quite nicely.

Brent, with Suzie looking on in full agreement.

: Eulaha L. April 13, 2005, 08:46:48 AM

There seems to be a lot of negativity regarding welfare receipients on our bulletin board. I post this email address to bring to light some of the myths that surround a "typical welfare case". I also hope that we can start some sort of fruitful discussion as a result.

http://www.wroc.org/mythfact.htm

I went to this website. It is unabashedly trying to get more people on welfare and get more payments and benefits for the people on welfare. I encourage everyone to look at this site and read what they have to say.

I thought this link was interesting. It is the "jobs" link on the website. Notice the importance they seem to place on work.

http://www.wroc.org/wroc_jobs.htm

If you want to protest on the capitol steps---children are encouraged to attend----there is much information. If you want to lobby lawmakers to get more free money, they'll tell you how to do it.

However, if you want info on a job, you get a blank link.

This is word for word from their website. I just cut and pasted it. It tells you how to get away with keeping money you don't deserve. Noble and just, the wefare people. Here's the link http://www.wroc.org/equit.html

How to Establish an Equitable Estoppel Defense

Equitable estoppel means stopping DSHS from taking action to collect money from you. If you are able to do this you will not have to pay back an overpayment. In order to use this defense you must show that the DSHS over paid you, but it was not your fault. You must also prove that if you are forced to pay back the over payment you will suffer hardship.

If the DSHS office is trying to collect money from you for an overpayment even though you gave them all the correct information, you need to contact the Fair Hearing Coordinator at your DSHS office. Tell that person that you want to establish an equitable estoppel defense to an overpayment. You will asked to provide information about your case. You must tell the Fair Hearing coordinator that you:

presented correct information when you r eligibility was determined;
received the benefits from the DSHS office;
used the assistance to meet your basic needs;
had no reason to doubt the DSHS eligibility decision.
Tell the Fair Hearing Coordinator that if you are forced to pay back the overpayment it will cause a "manifest injustice." You can do this by showing that:
the DSHS was at fault in the overpayment;
that you will suffer injury or be harmed if you have to pay back the DSHS because you do not have the money to pay them back and if you are forced to pay them back you will have to use money that you need for your basic necessities;
you followed the rules in establishing and maintaining eligibility and you reported all changes timely and accurately.
If you have questions about your situation or about what kind of information you will need to prove your case call us at WROC 206/324-3063.
Rev 11/99

Eulaha, I wouldn't give too much credence to the myths they list. I think that perhaps they have another motive in mind.

Yep, I hate welfare.

Brent

: VerneCarty May 01, 2005, 03:23:07 AM

The evidence suggests that it has had a devastating effect on Black families because of the way it rewards illegitimacy and the absence of males in the household.
This is a very difficult situation for while it is easy to despise folk who live such a dependent life in the richest country in the world, some of these people are third and fourth generation participants in the system and have never been taught any differently. One of the few prominent Black leaders I have heard tell folk in his church that they have no business being on wellfare is Tony Evans. I realise that sometimes there are truly extenuating circumstances, but for far too many, it appears to be a way of life.
I am also kind of surpised at people who bridle at the stigma attached to it and invoke sorry excuses like "wellfare myths" to try and justify what any person of self-respect would consider an undesirable situation. In this case stigma is good.
It serves to set you on the road to independence all the more quickly in my view.
Verne

The reason I hate welfare isn't because it is a good system with bad people in it. On the contrary, it is a wicked system that has destroyed good people, as you point out above.

That there are trapped victims in the welfare system is like saying that there are fish in the sea. Of course there are. The question is what are we to do about it.

I have found several things to be almost 100% true:

1.)Welfare people really don't want to work---if you offer them a job they make excuses. Or, they take the job and fake an injury, then file a lawsuit.
2.)The longer a person is on welfare the less likely it is for them ever to escape
4.)They lie about lots of stuff, constantly.
4.)people on welfare feel so guilty and low that they like to pretend they are victims in order to cope with their guilt.

"The check's late!"
"I should get more money!"
"I'm being discrminiated against."
"I tried to work, but the boss was against me. It was unfair."

Lot's of other stuff so they can convince themselves that they are being treated unfairly and actually deserve all the free stuff. It's horrible, and it makes me cry to see children begin to behave this way...in about the first grade.

I'm not saying this because I'm Archie Bunker, or some right wing whacko....I say it because it's true. I've met dozens of people on welfare, and I know many case workers. Also, our kids school receives title 1 funding....so we know a few things there.

The only way out of it that I can see is to use hunger. No work, no eat. Compassionate people would be there to provide jobs, etc.

Illegal aliens have figured out that they can work seven days a week doing things that welfare folks don't want to do, like pick food, and clean things. I submit that welfare types would pick strawberries, asparagus, broccoli and perhaps even avocados, if they had no option for free money.

Brent

: moonflower2 May 01, 2005, 04:10:32 AM

I think she is gone, but I'll say it anyway: Go for it, Lenore! California has a great climate. If you don't take the house, I will. ;D The basement probably doesn't flood during a heavy rain. ;)

I can see welfare as a short-term safety net for someone who needs to get on their feet, but year after year just promotes it as a lifestyle.

I work with someone who I believe is heavier than you, Lenore, and she puts in a full day at work, takes classes at the university, and attends church all day Sunday and during the week. Is she exhausted? Yes, just like I am, and I will be working to support myself for the rest of my life.

You will find a certain amount of support from the people you work with. It's never heaven at a job, but it gives us the opportunity to learn new things and to get along with people who we didn't pick to be co-workers.

There are always evening or week-end support groups available for any need, especially, I would think, in a largely populated state like California.

Moonflower

The house is only 2100 Sq feet, with granite counters and AC. No pool, but I have one, and she could have used it if she wanted to.
Work would have been about a 30 minute walk for her, not much longer than what she is used to in Ontario.

She would have made way more than 535 dollars per month, as she lamented below. The weather here is perfect, and she could have left after a few months vacation if she didn't like it.

I'm pretty condfident that most welfare people wouldn't ever take the risk of working, even if someone gives them the job and the house. The idea of having to do something correctly, and within a given time frame is just too much for them. When you are accustomed to taking all day naps whenever, work is frightening.

Only hunger will work in these cases, which is why it says:

2 thess 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

If someone is not capable of work, IE paralysis, etc. That's another matter altogether. One of our neighbors is paralyzed from T12 down, which means he has arms, and trunk, but nothing below the waist. He can't do certain things, but he works full time.

Of course, a few miles away, in the public housing, there are people who aren't paralyzed, but who don't work at all. My paralyzed neighbor pays for their lazy lifestyles from his taxes.

Oh well, I don't want to beat this horse too much to death.

I hate welfare, and I resent those who are on it.

Brent

: Ruth May 01, 2005, 05:17:19 AM

Obviously, the truth needs to be told. I agree that coddling doesn't help people. Whole cultures in the US are in trouble because of coddling and indulging folks who are able bodied. It is true, IMO, if there is time and wherewithal to do some of the things listed that there should be serious consideration to some sort of employment on some level....but I'm just saying that when someone has emotional problems - it can vary daily drastically. Men and women who haven't struggled with this find it hard to have compassion.

Thanks for responding, Sondra.

I don't think anyone would disagree with you that she is depressed. She pretty much shared all of that with us, and the frequent mention of medication and mental health clinics made it pretty obvious.

She deleted a couple posts on the thread, but much of them are preserved in quotes.

It all started when she responded to one of my posts by saying, "then you recent me, Brent."

I hadn't been talking to her, or anyone else, but making general statements about welfare. She placed herself quite in the center of the conversation, and the rest is recorded for all to see.

Because I deal with many people in chronic pain, and because I have some training in the psychology of chronic pain, medication dependency, and the depression overlays that go with the territory. What these people need is to get normal again, ASAP. If they wait to feel like getting normal, they never make it. Getting outside, standing tall, and accomplishing something worthwhile is about the best medicine for depression I know of.

I have hundreds of patients who take anti-depressants for clinical depression. They work full time.

Just being on welfare and living that lifestyle would make me depressed.

A rent free house in California, and a job making pizza is within the grasp of the the depressed. They can do it. The dough just co-operates, the sauce spreads, the cheese melts, and the cardboard folds. It really isn't that hard. My son did it when he was 14, and he's a teenage male! He isn't depressed, he's insane!

My 12 year old made some signs on the computer today, without anyone giving him the idea. He offered his services as a lawn mower for five bucks a lawn. Soon enough, someone called him and he drove the mower over and mowed their lawn. His friend used a push mower to get the tight spots. In a half hour, he made the five bucks, plus a 15 dollar tip. He's 12.

My point is that if a 12 year old can scare up work, an adult can take a job on a silver platter.

Welfare makes people worse off than 12 year olds.

I think half the people who work for the county are depressed.....

Brent

: Eulaha L. May 01, 2005, 05:40:00 AM

To be honest, I had no idea to respond to the way Lenore was raked over the coals because of her daily schedule, and because she happens to be on welfare. Never have a witnessed such a mean-spirited display on a so-called Christian bulletin board.

I know what it's like to be plagued with severe depression. Do you all know what it's like to wake up and wish you were dead? Or to be so nervous all the time that you can't hold down any food for three weeks? I went through this for over two years. I could not work. I could barely sit up in my bed without the assistance of caring friends. I was taking nine different medications daily. I HAD to go to therapy. I HAD to be hospitalized for months at a time, because I tried many times to take my own life.

I am eternally grateful for my family, who sent me money so I could pay my rent. I am thankful for the friends I had to "mooch" off of in order to make it through each day. If I have never said thank you before, I say it now: THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!

Brent-if you will kindly give me your mailing address, I will be more than happy to repay you the money you lent to this lazy, fat, murderous, drug-using (precription meds!), immoral and ungrateful welfare case.

Well, that's the first time you said thank you for the money, Eulaha.

I didn't bring it up, you did. Also, you can repay it if you wish, but I am not demanding it.

Your situation is a bit different than Lenore's, don't you think? She walks, cooks, does yoga, teaches sunday school....you were physically incapacitated. Don't you see that as being a bit different? I sure do.

I guess my question would be how are you doing? Are you going to be able to work, finish school? How long do you plan to be on welfare?

You might say that Lenore was treated in a "mean-spirited" way, but I thought the offer of a house and job, plus the failsafe of a return ticket was far from mean. It seems to me that it was a dream come true for a person who wanted to escape the cycle of poverty, as she mentioned.

Do you want to escape welfare dependency?

Brent

Summer and Sondra,

thanks to both of you for your responses. I typed one to summer and it got lost in cyberspace, so I'll retype some of it here as well.

Yes, I was a little depressed a day or two last week. I found that drinking coffee made me a little depressed so I stopped drinking it. Sure, people struggle with depression on and off. We are human. But experiencing daily serious ups and downs and ongoing deep depression - not in the same universe, Brent. And I am sure I have never experienced what Lenore does just from what I've read of her posts.

Sondra

Btw. You should thank God you didn't run into me when I was menopausal.

LOL! ;) ;) for that I am truly thankful. Quite funny!

First of all, I have never been depressed, or suicidal. However, Suzie has, several times.

After Paulina was born, she had hormonal swings that mimicked demonic possession, and I'm not kidding. She didn't sleep a wink for eleven days....that after pregancy, labor and childbirth, plus nursing. Eleven days, no sleep.

She not only thought about killing herself, she thought it would be a good idea to kill all the kids too. Please understand, she was horrified by this, because she knew it was awful, but at the same time she couldn't stop herself from the thoughts. She had horrible repetitive, blasphemous thoughts go through her mind about the Lord. She was repulsed by this, but couldn't stop it. She would have killed herself just to get them to stop.

I had her watched 24/7 when I wasn't there. The saints helped tremendously, and that is the brightest moment of our Assembly involvement. They helped us out in a big way during that time.

It has happened again, although not to that extent, several times. She currently has spells every few months where she can't sleep.

She takes a certain type of BC pill for the hormones, and Ambien from time to time when the insomnia starts. If we don't nip it in the bud, she will start getting bizarre after about 4 days of no sleep.

So, I've lived with a crazy person before, and I've seen it and looked it in the eye. The doctor wanted to institutionalize her, we trusted God. God came through, and no one would ever know that Suzie has this problem. She looks fabulous and is a busy, productive person, as anyone who knows us will attest.

I shudder to think of what would have happened if we had taken the meds, sent her to the hospital, been indoctrinated in the depressed lifestyle, etc. Being a mom and getting things done was her salvation. Thank God He gave us the strength to do it!

Brent, It's obvious you've been BURNT by alot of people. Most likely alot of this was done in the Assembly your Goodness taken advantage of repeatedly.( There's no greater Love then to lay down your life for a friend, as Christ did for us.) You've made it clear you hate welfare and resent/despise those on it, okay. I'm just thinkin your ANGER is mis-directed, and yes I could be wrong. But do you really think you came across as sincere( ? ) Yes, its wonderful to be self-suffient, and maybe you really do want that for Lenore it just seemed scathing. Summer.

My biggest financial loss was my own doing. Nasdaq greed, it was. I mentioned it here before. The next biggest loss was the money I gave to Geftakys, over and above the 10% we tithed. In spite of being burnt like this, I'm doing fine.

Believe it or not I wasn't the least bit angry while writing those posts. Not at all.

It was scathing, because it was true. She really did live like that, and I was totally sincere about the house and the job. You can't get much more sincere than that.

I wonder if the facilitator of her "A Time for Me," class would have done that?

I really believe the stuff i say, and I'm willing to back it up with action.

If Lenore was incapable of working, like Eulaha, what is she doing with all the walking, yoga, baking, babysitting, and teaching of Sunday school? (for that matter, what is her pastor thinking letting her watch his kids? Maybe she is OK afterall?)

Changing the topic somewhat, Here are a couple of things I've done in order to show my kids something about bums. I recommend you try these yourself:

Go up to a panhandler and tell him you want to give him something but can he make change for a 50. You will find that he has more cash than you do. Upon seeing this, I always ask, "Why are you begging for money? You have enough for a new shirt and a couple meals there?" The bum always responds by saying, "F-you you G@#damned !@#!@ard. Go @@#$ yourself!"

Trust me, it's an object lesson that won't soon be forgotten. Remember, you have to ask them for change, otherwise they just lie about how much money they have.

The next one is also really interesting.

When you see a guy with a "will work for food" sign. Tell him you have a job that will take all day, for three days. You need to move rocks, dig weeds, shovel sand, etc. You need someone for 3 days, every day, and you will provide 4 meals a day.

The bum will always respond, "I have a bad back," or give some other excuse why he can't do the job. Then he'll ask you for money. Try it.

Brent

: :: Chuck Vanasse :: May 01, 2005, 07:10:15 AM

Seemed very sincere to me...The fact that Suzie got involved demonstrated that she thought he was sincere. Who would know better than she?

Brent, you are a bit brutal - but, life is brutal, the truth is brutal...

You are the MAN, Brent - I like you, dude.

::c:v::

Hi Chuck!

Good to see you about the place from time to time.

I'm brutal, but I would have made that rent payment for Lenore no matter what. I would have sold shares of my retirement plan in order to make good on my word if I had too. That's pretty brutal, but I really believe that the only way to help these people is to give them the one thing they can't get from the system:

a way of escape.

Sadly, that's the last thing most of them want, because it ain't so bad living like that.

Not far from here, there are a number of small houses, 800-900 sq feet. 10 people must live in each of these houses, along with a couple dogs. They are all Mexican, and I would be surprised if all of them are legal.

Every evening they are out in the yard BBQing, with the kids. I see them get in their trucks to go to work as I drive my oldest to his AM weight workout at 6:30 at the highschool. These guys are going to work somewhere.

Their living conditions aren't as nice as the welfare folks, but they don't seem to mind. God Bless them!

Did you know you can make about 20 dollars an hour picking strawberries? That's if you're really good at it. If you loaf you might only make 10. You can work at an all night gas station, behind the glass, and pretty much read Purpose Driven Life all night long.....for money.

Please folks, understand that when a person is incapable of working, none of this applies. When Suzie was insane, she couldn't work. I don't have any wrong ideas about that. However, she sure wasn't typing long posts, walking, doing yoga, sleeping all day, going to support groups or baby sitting....she was insane. There's a difference.

Brent

Hi everyone,

Okay, I will enter this fray, but I must admit I am a bit conflicted.

Why? Because I find myself agreeing with Sondra (with whom I have large differences of opinion on other issues) and in disagreement with Brent, with whom I usually agree.

Also, Brent is right about Welfare (in general), and I'm sure that he is sincere in his desire to help Lenore.

However, tough love may be effective with the lazy, but this is not Lenore's problem. "A kick in the butt" for someone like Lenore is only likely to give her a sore behind.

Come on people---- we need to be able to make a difference ("on some having compassion, and on others using the fear of God)"! Yes, the bible says, "don't work don't eat", but it also says to be gentle with the weak--- hence, we don't use truth bazookas on everyone!

She comes on the BB making herself completely vulnerable; in her simple way trying to work through her emotional problems with us and a decision is made from this that she is a prototype of the welfare lazy fraud?!

Paul told the Romans that the "strong" (those that understood their liberty in Christ) should not use their better knowledge to "destroy" their "weaker" fellow believer. This tells me there is a place for the tactful use of our place, which is a stronger one, to help those that aren't where they need to be--- as the strong (the accomplised one) we can be impatient with those who have not ably conquered life as we have.

Yes, it is very easy to become totally cynical due to those that use the status of a victim to work the system to their advantage, but is this what Lenore is doing? Could she do better? No doubt, but how to best encourage that change?

Jesus walked the streets of Israel, and not only knew the hearts' of the proud Pharisee, but understood the fraud in the hearts' of the many needy---- yet, he was able to make a difference when he met Nicodemus (pharisee) and the lame man at the pool of siloam(beggar).

Both of these came from a general class of society, but had an individuality that caused them to escape the general judgment of the whole by Jesus.

It was a sincere and loving offer of Brent to invite Lenore to move to SLO and set her up with a job, but when offered in public in concert with ridicule of her it becomes too humiliating to accept; the offer should have been made in private.

I do not suffer from depression, though some think I am emotionally disturbed ;), I have never been on Welfare, and even in my hippie days was too proud to beg, but still feel it is insensitive to "kick butt" with poor little Lenore in some kind of misguided effort to stir her to gainful employment. :'(

Still--- God bless us everyone (in the words of Tiny Tim), Mark C.

: Mark C. May 01, 2005, 09:03:02 AM

The fact that you agree with Sondra, and not me is actually a breath of fresh air.

With regard to Lenore,

Please look back and you will see that I never addressed her personally. She inserted herself into the center by saying that "you recent me, Brent."

Far from calling her a lazy welfare fraud, I offered her a huge help up and out of her problem. I would never have even said a word to her, but she made it pretty impossible not to.

The facts of the matter are that she has problems, but she can work.

Suzie told me, a few minutes ago, "Acting normal really helps. Even when you know you're crazy, if you act normal it helps get you under control."

Another person from the BB PM'd me today and shared a similiar story to Lenore's. She had no resources to help her recover for two years, and she had to go to work depressed, and tough it out.

I wouldn't have said anything, but if you read about her bowling, yoga, etc. someone's got to tell her it's time to take the next step and work.

There are plenty of jobs that aren't hard, and don't require interaction with people. It would do her self esteem a world of good if she actually worked and provided for herself.

It's one thing when you're in the hosptial. But after you get out, and are able to do work, you should work.

Was she working through emotional problems here? I seriously doubt it. In fact, if anything, I think her participation only strengthened some of her bad habits. Validating her lifestyle is a real disservice, IMO.

The second she got even a little dissapproval from someone she was gone, because she "didn't get the support she needs." If we do anything at all here to help someone like her, it sure won't be to validate and encourage her choices.

I guess I should have left in a tiff when she called me Hitler? She didn't apologize for that, or did she? That isn't right, even for a depressed person.

She mentioned that in her "A Time for Me" class, or Pupose Driven Life, or perhaps both, had a section on being honest. Well, if she was honest, she would have explained why she couldn't work, instead of going on and on about brie, chowder, yoga and bowling, not to mention sleeping all day.

The fact is she is capable of doing some kind of work, and she should. If working is impossible in Ontario, due to the rules of welfare, she owes it to herself to move.

Anyone can say stuff like this, but I was willing to back it up.

How long do you let a person wallow? Is it right to allow a person to be "depressed" or mentally ill, so that they never have to work, even if they are able?

I just don't get it.

Brent

: Eulaha L. May 01, 2005, 09:36:06 AM

Brent,

I am really, really sorry for not thanking you about the money. I honestly thought I had. That's no excuse, though.

Currently, I receive disability benefits. My case is reviewed on a yearly basis. There have been no attempts on my part to try to fraud the system. My doctor and my medical history speak for themselves.

Every day that I do not wake up feeling like hurting myself is such a blessing. Although I am not as bad as I was a year ago, I am what is called a "rapid cycler"-generally a couple weeks of "good days", then about a month of "bad days"-severe depression, sometimes resulting in suicidal ideation. It is during those bad days that I tend to be overly sensitive and fly off the handle-like I did today. Wel...I've been doing it for the past 2 weeks, as my post on this BB can attest.

I am almost done with my education. I should be done in December.

that's great to hear Eulaha. Getting your degree is a huge accomplishment, and you can be very proud of that.

I don't for a second think that someone who is hospitilized should work. I remember you working here in SLO, etc.

I never was referring to you or Lenore, but to the welfare system in general. The fact that you are getting your degree is more than enough demonstration that you intend to move on and up in life. That type of attitude won't allow you to stay on welfare your whole life.

Suzie sells jewelry as a little business. One of her friends started doing this a few years ago, when she was a welfare queen. Now, she owns a house and is making plenty of money....selling jewelry.

Work is good for people.

Brent

Maybe there are a couple of distinctions that would be helpful in this discussion. One is, the nature of the BB makes it appear as if such an offer is simple, and the acceptance or refusal is simple. In Leonore's case, it would definitely not be simple. It would entail leaving her country, leaving the town of her birth and entire life, and, most difficult, changing the way Canada has taught her to think about social welfare. There are many able-bodied folks in Canada, I was told by my Canadian son-in-law, who every year work for 6 months and then go on welfare for 6 months. It's that easy and it's that socially accepted in Canada. To present Leonore with a totally different way of thinking and expect her to digest it on one fast-moving BB thread is not realistic.

Secondly, there is a difference between the love extended in Brent's sincere offer, and his manner of making it. I think it is the manner in which he offered it that falls short. He said, after Leonore refused it, "However, as much as I wanted to help Lenore in doing this, I was 99.9% sure she wouldn't do it. Like most welfare types, she is dependent and powerless..." This being the case, love would have dictated making the offer in private, to give Leonore time to work through all the complications of such a decision without public shaming. But Brent's admission and his following posts reveal a mixed motive of wanting to make a point about welfare, and using Leonore to make it, while at the same time truly offering to help her. As Stephen pointed out, "Leonore's skepticism of Brent's good will is understandable," and her feeling of being attacked.

Wow, what a day!

I got up at 5AM and drove into the Sierra Nevada to catch the last day of the ski season with the family. We had a blast, but I have a sore stomach from the first hard fall I've had in years.

I'll still get up and go to work however. People are counting on me, and work is my main source of income.

Well, it seems as if I've been a bit of a meanie, like when I was called Hitler by a sensitive member of the BB.

Let's start over, shall we?

Lenore, can you please tell me why you are unable to work?

If you are not capable of trading time or talent for money, then you need assistance. What exactly are the reasons you cannot get a job?

Let me answer a few other questions that came up below, while I was away today. First, I'd like answer Al Hartman.

Al, I have treated a number of people on welfare over the years. Half of them paid with cash. Another 20%, an aged parent would acompany them to the office and handle the finances for them.

Fully 30% of them turned out to be total deadbeats. They would "forget" their wallet or purse on the first visit, make a partial payment on the second visit, and then disappear. Checks bounce all the time from these people, and often the address or phone turn out to be fake. Most of my accounts receivable now, is from the welfare class.

My malpractice carrier has a whole workshop on how to deal with this strata of society, because they are by far the most likely to sue a doctor. In SLO, most of the babies born are from single, welfare mothers on Medi-cal. This accounts for a little more than half of births here. (Families can't afford to purchase a home in SLO. The median price is over 400k. But welfare folks get it all.) The OB GYN's are getting hit hard with lawsuits when the babies don't come out right....anyhow, I digress.

Here's why I don't withhold treatment, Al. I think it's good for them to pay for something they value. Even if it's just cigarettes. If they value it, they must pay. I KNOW the liquor store won't let them smoke on credit.....so I ask them for cash. Unless I decide to treat them for free, which is often. That's my choice, and I make it of my own free will. Quite different than being forced to do it, which I won't do. So, treating welfare people doesn't violate my principles at all. I'm not sure exactly what you were trying to get at, but the direct question part I answered.

OK, many of you are taking me to task for not doing this privately, or for being more friendly, loving, sensitive to her fragility, etc.

I don't know how many times I have to say this.

I didn't address her. I wasn't talking to her. I was pontificating on a thread that I didn't start, after following a link to a website put their by someone else. She made herself the center of the discussion by saying, "Then you recent me, Brent."

Go back and read it. I followed up by asking her why she was on welfare, and why she couldn't work. But she deleted her answers.

This really makes me sick. I think some of you have a serious screw loose. You act as if Lenore is retarded, or substandard as a person, and it disgusts me. Does she get a pass for totally misreading me and calling me Hitler? Yes! Why? Because she is stupid? I have no idea, and I don't think she's stupid, but apparently several of you must.

We all have to work at different occupations. We talk about how people need to be held accountable for the things they do. However, I guess Lenore needn't worry. She is so weak and sensitive. She should be able to do whatever she wants, go bowling, drink coffee, take gourmet cooking classes, do yoga, build self-esteem and complain about how hard it is to be on welfare.

It's OK for her to act this way, because she's substandard. She hasn't the skills necessary to build a hamburger, or stuff envelopes. She's just substandard.

What a bunch of post masticated bovine ruminant! What cruel, sick, nasty people you are! >:( What have you done for her, other than to re-inforce the horrible conclusions she has drawn about herself? I bet none of you have given her a dime, or done one thing to help her out, except perhaps Marcia.

I'll adopt your sick, cruel, and debasing ideas for a moment:

Lenore, you should just take it easy and recover. Sleep if you need to, go to classes, do whatever makes you feel better. If something bothers you, learn to shut it out and just be at peace. If you NEVER get to a point where you can work, or do anything, don't worry. God has a pupose for you, but you're so small and weak, so He only has a tiny little purpose. You won't ever do anything great in life. Just get through one day at a time. Don't take any risks, whatever you do. A person like yourself is just not smart enough, tough enough, or determined enough to embark on any great adventure in life.

Live on a single level house...(no stairs to fall down that way) take medicine so you are happy at all times, and do whatever seems nice. Don't plan too far out in the future, because you know that there are always reasons why you can't do things better people do. You aren't good enough, so don't try. God Bless You! :-[ :-[

Lenore, I don't believe any of that about you. I don't think you're stupid, or less capable than anyone else. You need to give yourself a try and don't listen to these freaks. Their advice, if followed, would have you in diapers before long. You are a child of God, and you are made whole in Him. Start acting like it!

The rest of you should be ashamed of yourselves! Al, I expect this crap from you. Mark, you dissappoint me tremendously.

Sondra....not sure yet.

Bob Smith, of all people, over on SWTE is the one who gets it. The rest of you need to apologize to Lenore for helping her believe she's a failure. You sick, twisted, hypocrits! The tender mercies of the wicked are cruel, and in this matter you people are wicked!

Brent

: Brent A. Tr0ckman May 02, 2005, 10:18:09 AM

Brent,

This is all my fault. I should have never started this thread in the first place! I didn't mean for everyone to be mad at each other.

There's nothing wrong with being challenged...it hurts at first, but ultimately it helps us to be better people. And...it takes a lot of caring for someone to challenge us the way you (and Suzie) do! So, thanks for caring!

OKAY ENOUGH WILL PEOPLE PLEASE STOP GOSSIPING ABOUT ME:

I will tell you my medical problems:
I HAVE CHRONIC DEPRESSION, it is always with you,never goes away
due to some pretty PST evident in my life.
Please Research
also suffer from severe bladder incontinence & I also have diviculitis/Irrated Bowel Sydrome and mild case of Colitis. which make bathroom availability a necessary tracking on any of my walking journeys.
I am severely hard of hearing, I am going deaf.
I have severe osteo arthritis pain.

I am going to admit that I had a second mild breakdown a year ago, one year after the major one. These breakdowns were not the first occurence in my life.
I am suicidical at times, and have attempted it twice.

The Community Mental Health Clinic which I am a client, is a place where I go for socialization and the activities which I mention on my posting Daily Chatting, is for building me up strength wise physically, emotionally and spiritually.
Because of the state I was in a year ago. I need the motivation to get out of bed and to g et out of the house. Else I wouldnt of , the only place where I went would of been church.

Despite of all the turmoil I went through last year I did complete a 10 week computer course.

I am enclosing something :

WORK HISTORY

Ø CASHIER/CUSTOMER SERVICE
2001-2004 REXALL DRUG STORE, ARNPRIOR, ONTARIO

Ø CASHIER/CUSTOMER SERVICE
1998-2001 MCDONALD RESTAURANT, ARNPRIOR, ONTARIO

Ø ANIMAL CLINIC AIDE/RECEPTIONIST
1990-1995 INGRAM ANIMAL HOSPITAL, ARNPRIOR, ONTARIO

Ø CLERK/TYPIST
Ø 1977-1983. VARIOUS GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS

EDUCATION

COMPUTER COURSE CERTIFICATE, 10 WEEK BASIC KNOWLEDGE COMPUTER SKILLS
INCLUDED WORD, EXCEL, INTERNET, EMAILING ..PLUS JOB READINESS SKILLS

CLERK/TYPIST CERTIFICATE, ALGONQUIN COLLEGE, NEPEAN, ONTARIO

ONTARIO SECONDARY SCHOOL EDUCATION ARNPRIOR & DISTRICT HIGH SCHOOL, ARNPRIOR, ONT.

VARIOUS WORKSHOPS:
INCLUDING JOB FINDING CLUB, LEADERSHIP WORKSHOP, CHILD ABUSE PREVENTION WORKSHOPS, and CUSTOMER SERVICE/SHRINKAGE PREVENTION WORKSHOPS.

COMMUNITY SERVICES/SKILL & EXPERIENCES

PUBLIC SPEAKING , LEADING A DISCUSSION GROUP, PRESENTS A TOPIC TO A GROUP OF PEOPLE.
CONFIDENTLY HANDLE CASH, COMPUTERIZE CASH REGISTER
TEACH CHILDREN, AND PREPARE LESSON PLANS
ORGANIZE AND PREPARE FOR A SOCIAL EVENT.
HARD WORKING, DEPENDABLE, SOCIABLE.
CUSTOMER FRIENDLY

: Brent A. Tr0ckman May 02, 2005, 10:18:09 AM

First, I'd like answer Al Hartman.

Al, I have treated a number of people on welfare over the years. Half of them paid with cash. Another 20%, an aged parent would acompany them to the office and handle the finances for them.

Fully 30% of them turned out to be total deadbeats. They would "forget" their wallet or purse on the first visit, make a partial payment on the second visit, and then disappear. Checks bounce all the time from these people, and often the address or phone turn out to be fake. Most of my accounts receivable now, is from the welfare class.

My malpractice carrier has a whole workshop on how to deal with this strata of society, because they are by far the most likely to sue a doctor. In SLO, most of the babies born are from single, welfare mothers on Medi-cal. This accounts for a little more than half of births here. (Families can't afford to purchase a home in SLO. The median price is over 400k. But welfare folks get it all.) The OB GYN's are getting hit hard with lawsuits when the babies don't come out right....anyhow, I digress.

Here's why I don't withhold treatment, Al. I think it's good for them to pay for something they value. Even if it's just cigarettes. If they value it, they must pay. I KNOW the liquor store won't let them smoke on credit.....so I ask them for cash. Unless I decide to treat them for free, which is often. That's my choice, and I make it of my own free will. Quite different than being forced to do it, which I won't do. So, treating welfare people doesn't violate my principles at all. I'm not sure exactly what you were trying to get at, but the direct question part I answered.

The rest of you should be ashamed of yourselves! Al, I expect this crap from you. Mark, you dissappoint me tremendously.

Again, I would be obliged if you would point out any instance on this thread where I have given you what you deem "crap," Brent. I can't help however it is that you feel or think about me, but I have gone to extremes to not be unnecessarily confrontational with you. Although I disagree with much of what you say, and am both hurt and concerned by the way you appear to treat others, you are responsible to Christ for all that and I have no reason or desire to want you to answer to me for anything. As for the subject of the welfare system, I had not considered it evil (it hadn't occurred to me), but otherwise I pretty much share your opinion of how it is operated and what it has become.

For those who have begun to forget what it was like to be led by Geftakys, these are some examples of what I recall of his "leadership":

He was NEVER wrong.*** I have witnessed him diametrically change his position on a matter without ever having been wrong.

Anyone who disagreed with him was WRONG. No exceptions. There was no room for other opinions. Period. It was his way or the whizway.

He would not conduct a private conversation with a peer. He was peerless. No one was worthy to approach him on a level field. He would only talk down to anyone else, never just as a brother in Christ.

He publicly humiliated those he disagreed with, those he feared, and any he otherwise disapproved of or disliked. He mocked them, laughed at them, ridiculed them, called them names, and twisted their words.

He exaggerated his own position and his criticisms of others, always to the advantage of his public image and to the detriment of those he opposed.

He bragged of his wisdom and strength of character & will. He derided those he considered weak, and especially those he wanted to make appear to be weak.

He had his "groupies" who, each for his own reasons, would support and follow him anywhere, through anything, believing (or at least professing) that he could do no wrong. Verne summed it up well: they were hoping to become "something." And they did: they became misled, confused, disillusioned, ruined...

In all of these things, George was NEVER wrong.***

***For clarity's sake: George would readily admit that he had made mistakes in his lifetime, but they were always in the past, never in the present. No one could catch him making one.

For any who wonder what I may be "trying to get at," the above "attributes of George" pretty much parallel my opinion of Brent's conduct on this bulletin board. I do not like saying such things about a brother in Christ. I state them without rancor or any personal motive only because I believe Brent's conduct is unbefitting one who is looked to as a shepherd. I may be wrong, and I am prepared to hear and take to heart any and all replies.

Verne said:

I once had some very misguided notions ...and had a brother make some rather blunt remarks to me about what I was doing. It stung, shocked, and perturbed me at the time.
It was also one of the best and most life-changing pieces of advice I have ever received from a brother in Christ.

I have personally profited by the criticisms I have received on the BB, the references to my tendencies toward carrying on the LB traditions and mannerisms, etc. I hope, and refuse to doubt, Brent, that you can and will do the same...

In Christ,
al

: al Hartman May 02, 2005, 07:16:02 PM

....
For those who have begun to forget what it was like to be led by Geftakys, these are some examples of what I recall of his "leadership":

He was NEVER wrong.*** I have witnessed him diametrically change his position on a matter without ever having been wrong.

Anyone who disagreed with him was WRONG. No exceptions. There was no room for other opinions. Period. It was his way or the whizway.

He would not conduct a private conversation with a peer. He was peerless. No one was worthy to approach him on a level field. He would only talk down to anyone else, never just as a brother in Christ.

He publicly humiliated those he disagreed with, those he feared, and any he otherwise disapproved of or disliked. He mocked them, laughed at them, ridiculed them, called them names, and twisted their words.

He exaggerated his own position and his criticisms of others, always to the advantage of his public image and to the detriment of those he opposed.

He bragged of his wisdom and strength of character & will. He derided those he considered weak, and especially those he wanted to make appear to be weak.

He had his "groupies" who, each for his own reasons, would support and follow him anywhere, through anything, believing (or at least professing) that he could do no wrong. Verne summed it up well: they were hoping to become "something." And they did: they became misled, confused, disillusioned, ruined...

In all of these things, George was NEVER wrong.***

***For clarity's sake: George would readily admit that he had made mistakes in his lifetime, but they were always in the past, never in the present. No one could catch him making one.

For any who wonder what I may be "trying to get at," the above "attributes of George" pretty much parallel my opinion of Brent's conduct on this bulletin board. I do not like saying such things about a brother in Christ. I state them without rancor or any personal motive only because I believe Brent's conduct is unbefitting one who is looked to as a shepherd. I may be wrong, and I am prepared to hear and take to heart any and all replies.
....
In Christ,
al

I was hoping to avoid commenting on this, but...

Al, looks like you knew George quite well and, since you left a long time ago, that things were bad right from the beginning of the Geftakys assembly movement. :o

Your connections, however, I disagree with. This is not a mathematical formula or a computer program where if-then-else logic will work. George and Brent are 2 different individuals. I do not agree that the same evil is at work here. I would rather have Brent's clear blunt commentary, than remain in my assembly fog of deception.

You may not like Brent's method of stating his opinion, but at least consider what he is saying.

If you can prove that he has ulterior motives, or is lying or something, then that would be a different story. I do not see that happening here.

Marcia

Eulaha,
   This is so not your fault. Don’t slide into guilt over this. ::)

Lenore,
   If you don’t want people to gossip about you stop putting your info out there. I.e. your resume and how you spend your days.

Brent,
   What a cool offer!! If I were still on the central coast I would take you up on it in a heart beat. A house and a job!!! Handed to me?? And people like your family in my life and supporting me? WOW!! ;D ;D

For those that don’t know me, I am 23 years old and raised at the very core of the assembly. One day my mom walked out (I’m glad she did) and left me with the choice to stay in my home with my crazy dad or find another way to live. Since that day I have moved well over 10 times, been hospitalized for 3rd degree burns, gone threw rehab for it, been hospitalized for a nervous breakdown and recovered from that. I have never been on welfare. I have worked full time and paid every penny of my hospital bills and my household bills. I would love to do yoga, have a gym membership, time for support groups, above all time and money for school but as for now, I have to work hard and take trains and busses and live on a tight budget so that I can remain the self sufficient person I have made myself. And you know what? Being that self sufficient person will give me more self esteem than all the groups in the world. Lenor is right that the work visa and green card would be a hurdle but what it looks like to me is that she is more upset on being called on her choices than anything else. It’s not easy to keep your head above water but it’s not impossible. I think maybe she needs to “trim the fat” a little. But if I can do it so can she. ;)

: CAGirl May 02, 2005, 11:56:45 PM

WORD!!!

You've got it. Good job. Instead of being a professional sluggard and victim, you're being a person.

I commend you, Rebecca.

Let's see, you've overcome:

A whacked family
Depression
Physical incapactitation
financial ruin
Mental illness
Overwight?

And you're not on welfare? Awesome. Thanks for sharing.

Brent

Al,

Dear brother, i get the impression from your post that you still have some heavy baggage around what your involvement with George did to your life. Based on what you've shared here for the past two years, I'm not surprised.

You said"
"For those who have begun to forget what it was like to be led by Geftakys, these are some examples of what I recall of his "leadership":

He was NEVER wrong.*** I have witnessed him diametrically change his position on a matter without ever having been wrong.

Anyone who disagreed with him was WRONG. No exceptions. There was no room for other opinions. Period. It was his way or the whizway.

He would not conduct a private conversation with a peer. He was peerless. No one was worthy to approach him on a level field. He would only talk down
to anyone else, never just as a brother in Christ.

He publicly humiliated those he disagreed with, those he feared, and any he otherwise disapproved of or disliked. He mocked them, laughed at them, ridiculed
them, called them names, and twisted their words.

He exaggerated his own position and his criticisms of others, always to the advantage of his public image and to the detriment of those he opposed.

He bragged of his wisdom and strength of character & will. He derided those he considered weak, and especially those he wanted to make appear to be weak.

He had his "groupies" who, each for his own reasons, would support and follow him anywhere, through anything, believing (or at least professing) that he
could do no wrong. Verne summed it up well: they were hoping to become "something." And they did: they became misled, confused, disillusioned, ruined...

In all of these things, George was NEVER wrong.***

***For clarity's sake: George would readily admit that he had made mistakes in his lifetime, but they were always in the past, never in the present. No
one could catch him making one."

Based on most of what I've read and all of what I've heard from former members and LB's, your observations/assessments of GG are very accurate.

But, you make a leap to:

"For any who wonder what I may be "trying to get at," the above "attributes of George" pretty much parallel my opinion of Brent's conduct on this bulletin
board."

From my own perspective, I can see no comparison of Brent to George...though they may both come off as very proud men, I think Brent's pride is genuine and George's was either a product of fear, dillusion or a much darker influence.

" I do not like saying such things about a brother in Christ. I state them without rancor or any personal motive only because I believe Brent's
conduct is unbefitting one who is looked to as a shepherd. I may be wrong, and I am prepared to hear and take to heart any and all replies.
...."

Please! Hold it! Stop! If there is anyone out there that is looking to Brent as a Shepherd, they have got some issues. If they look at him as a resource, a hero or another brother in Christ with some rough edges (give me the sand paper when you are done <grin>), then I dont' see an issue.

Don't anyone forget that it took a personality like Brent's to pursue the revealing of truth surrounding the years of deception perpetrated by Geftakys and his clones. But for someone to think of him as a shepherd, I find even the suggestion of that to be insulting.

I rarely go back beyond the 10 most recent posts on this board. But, when I saw this one, I felt the need to follow it from the beginning. What I saw from Brent did not surprise me, nor did it offend me, then Lenore made the comment about Brent resenting her...and then Brent let loose with what appeared to be pent up frustrations with the welfare system...I think that one's perspective and personality has a lot to do with how they are going to react and it is easy for those of us who have another perception or interest in the subject to get offended or misinterpret what is being said, whether or not we "approve" of the way it is said.
Personally, I would have liked to see much of the discussion between Lenore and Brent handled in PM's...but it wasn't...so let's not make more of this as it will probably be misinterpreted anyway.

I like this comment by Marcia,
"I do not agree that the same evil is at work here. I would rather have Brent's clear blunt commentary, than remain in my
assembly fog of deception."

And Marcia pretty much said the same thing but probably much clearer...

"You may not like Brent's method of stating his opinion, but at least consider what he is saying."

C-ya, Tony

: Tony May 03, 2005, 02:08:44 AM

Thanks for weighing in Tony:

I have never proclaimed myself to be a shepherd, and have never wanted to be one. If I think people start looking to me for that, i usually warn them off, and have done so repeatedly during my tenure here. I'm not even a moderator on the BB!

As for being compared with George, I take that almost as seriously as being compared to Hitler. It's merely a humorous annecdote to spice up my day.

Al is basically dishonest. He is always trying to get some edge, some way of scoring a zinger against me. Of course, he always does this in a way that "exhalts the majestic Name of Our Blessed Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." He hasn't really been able to do so, but he sensed that since everyone seemed to be mad at me, now was his chance to make a bold move!

Compare Brent with George! ;D

The simple fact of the matter is that this has been done before, and someone can go back and search out how I handled it the last time.

I'll admit when I'm wrong, and I'm no respector of persons. Ask Verne. Ask Sondra.

The problem with Al isn't that I won't admit when I'm wrong, but that I don't back down when I'm right. George grew to dislike this about me as well.

Al, your a poser. You ingratiate yourself to me one minute, and then call me "George" the next. Stick to humor.

Folks, if this was a dinner party, or Senatorial fund raising dinner, we wouldn't be talking about things like this.

However, this is a BB with a very narrow audience. We share ideas here, and many of us try to be honest with eachother about our ideas, passionate even. If I'm at a wine and hors' de orveous party, I won't talk this way. But this is the place we can do it.

This is the sort of exchange that goes on when groups of people who have principles get together. This is how grand ideas are brought about. Debate and honesty.

Al, how often did George foster honest debate? Furthermore, how often did he let you speak your mind? I haven't deleted you yet, have I?

Can YOU ADMIT YOU ARE WRONG?

I'm not George, or Adolph.

Brent

Hi All, I know I rarely post, but I am compelled on this topic of Welfare and Mental Illness. My main posts got lost in the software transfer. I fellowshipped in Huntington Beach for about 8 years. THIS POST IS IN 2 SEPARATE POST

POST !
I want to say something because I see that some pertinent information is being left out on this topic. I want to talk about some of the practical out workings of Mental Illnesses, which typically ranges from Clinical Depression to Bi-polarism to Schizophrenia, and how it makes one unemployable. Forgive me if I use any of the terms in an improper way.

No doubt, many mentally ill persons are able to get the care they need via doctors and stay on top of the ever changing prescriptive needs, while at the same time maintaining a job. But many cannot. Often times after several failed attempts to maintain a “normal” routine, they find it easier to stay on disability and eliminate the stress of trying to keep a job. Going in and out of the jobs tends to exacerbate the illness causing hospitalization, and possibly worse. Staying home offers the stability of a daily, quiet routine.

Such instability also causes a patient to become homeless losing all possessions, damaging family relationships, and to become vulnerable to predators as there is usually a lull before they can obtain governmental or other assistance to get back on their feet.

Then they start all over and must answer the question of a potential employer, “Why did you leave your last job?”, “Why so many gaps between jobs?”, or “What have you been doing the last 6 mos.?”. The fact is that this illness still has a lot of stigma and is still cause for work place discrimination.

What employer wants to hire someone with this kind of disability believing that chances are they will have to fill the position again in 6 months after who knows what kind of disruption to the work place has been created? Most people are aware that mental illness frequently means instability, and stability is a primary requirement for job qualification. Discrimination laws can’t protect against this.

In the U.S. the government can assist the disabled in finding a job, but most such jobs pay less than disability/welfare and coupled with periodic unemployment, simply cannot sustain a living. This only adds to the existing tendency to feel worthless and/or hopeless.

Also in the U.S. a worker is somewhat protected from losing their job due to a disability, but seeking such protection when it is needful is especially difficult when one is in the throws of a severe depressive or psychotic episode. Additionally, the period of time that a job can be held is limited, and it can be just too embarrassing to return to the same job to possibly face the ignorance and cruel jokes of co-workers.

Imagine the task of raising children while under such a burdensome illness. Many do not develop the disease until their late teens or early twenties, some later. My mother was one such person, having had 4 children by the time she was diagnosed, then abandoned by her husband. I, for one, am very grateful for Welfare.

It took Mom years to become employable due to the severity of her illness and the limited types of medication back then. Caring for 4 children must have been a daily stressor in and of itself. She was forced to go to work so what little focused attention we kids were able to get from her was usurped by her jobs. No one told her that she may be a candidate for Social Security Disability until after we were all grown, and even then she was able to support herself most of the time. And I don’t recall her ever complaining about having to take menial jobs. I think in her case working helped motivate her to stay on top of her illness and escape 4 unruly kids, but still she spent her life under employed, and in and out of sanity.

One of the major struggles for the mentally ill is coming to terms with the necessity of taking drugs as the drugs tend to desensitize the mind and emotions to the everyday joys of life. Many prefer the manic/depressive or psychotic state being unable to bear the listlissness the drugs create or their other side effects. It’s not uncommon for it to take years to acquiesce to a prescription drug regimen. The drug therapies available have improved tremendously but they are limited in their effectiveness and patients can still have episodes while taking them.

Many turn to alcohol and drugs in an attempt to self medicate and end up in the bondage of addiction. I know a woman who was not properly diagnosed until she was in her early 40’s and the birth of her 3rd child triggered a major breakdown, and this was after a lifetime of suicide attempts and alcohol abuse. I spoke to her mother who said all the signs where there when she was younger but she didn’t recognize them, she just thought her daughter was a drug addict. Many of the symptoms mimic drug abuse. They had become estranged for years.

One question is: should not a patient’s family care for them instead of the government? Apparently enough families have alleviated themselves of such persons, or the ill persons have decided to leave on their own, many for good reasons, thereby causing it to become a societal problem, hence welfare. I can attest to how difficult it is to live and work with a mentally ill person. It can be both stressful and disruptive. There are many illnesses that affect mental functioning.

POST 2

My Mother, during her 40 years of medicating and all it’s side effects, periodically decides to give it a go without the drugs. She just gets sick of the constant battle to find a comfortable mixture. She will drift in and out normalcy until something happens to trigger stress and increases her symptoms. She usually lasts about 3 months without meds. We are very fortunate because her particularly type of mental illness does not include suicidal tendencies and she only occasionally needs hospitalization. She is trying to find a doctor in her HMO who is willing to work with her desire to only periodically medicate. She has become more experienced and responsible in managing her illness and it helps that she is now retired and has a husband who is understanding of her issues, but still at times he is weary of it all. They are both unbelievers.

But myself and my siblings, when as teens, and then in our twenties, had adopted the policy of pushing her to take her medication. Mostly because her illness was an inconvenience for us and we could not financially support her when she was having an episode and was unable to work. She needed someone to stay home and watch her as she would leave the house and get lost. She would become closed off to seeing a doctor since she couldn’t recognize her illness.

We saw her as miserable and were intolerant of her behavior/symptoms. Now I can look back at the obstacles she has had to overcome thus far, including unsupportive children, and I can say I admire her perseverance. Knowing what I know now about the disease I now support her in her choice to not medicate since she no longer has the responsibility of raising children. I may change my mind should I ever have to take care of her in her latter years, and that will depend on her willingness to seek help when she gets too close to the edge. But that’s the problem, we all use a different yard stick.

The laws in California support a patient’s right not to medicate if they are not a physical threat. Even then, the length of involuntary treatment is very regulated, usually 3 days maximum if the patient shows improvement, if not then 2 weeks is permitted but most medical plans try to avoid this. After that, the doctor must be able to document grave danger in order to justify further institutionalization. Previously the state found it very expensive to enforce stricter laws requiring medication for those who did not want it, and those laws were abused. With the better drugs and outpatient treatment programs available now, there are many success stories.

Mental Illness is a very complicated disease with as many variations as there are sufferers because it directly affects the way each individual thinks and feels. It is also an illness where grace tends to fly out of the window on the part of those in close contact to the afflicted when confronted by it’s symptoms.

Praise the Lord for the advances in medicine that has legitimized the illness and affords the sufferer a greater degree “normalcy”. What is really “normal” when it comes to a mental state? Christians are constantly becoming aware of their own fractured, dysfunctional hearts and minds. Isn’t this the why of this website? This Board is a kind of therapy for most of us. There are many on the sidelines like myself who just read the posts and don’t participate in the discussions but are compelled to observe.

The few mentally ill persons I have known I have come to appreciate for their uniqueness, even though, I’m ashamed to say, I’m sometimes annoyed by some of their behaviors. Sometimes it's good to be annoyed, it prompts you to grow. Then, oftentimes, I am impressed by their forthrightness. Anyway, it helps to learn as much as possible about the disease. There is abundant info available on the WEB.

Here is a great resource I recommend to anyone who would like to do further research on the subject. I had found this story a few years ago written by a Christian woman, Gayle Darhower, who suffers from Bipolarism, “Seek His Face He Will Provide”. In it she tells of the inner workings of her life and mind with great insight, and how the disease affects her relationships to her family and to God. She lists the scriptures that have supported her thru the tough times and doesn’t sidestep the issue of sin. She used to have the story posted to her website but it appears that it has been published as a book so now you can only get the highlights on her website at seekhisfacehewillprovide.com. It’s worth a look.

2 Corinthians 1:3-4 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

Dede Hoag

: Brent A. Tr0ckman May 03, 2005, 02:41:45 AM

Al, how often did George foster honest debate? Furthermore, how often did he let you speak your mind? I haven't deleted you yet, have I?

Can YOU ADMIT YOU ARE WRONG?

I'm not George, or Adolph.

Brent

George didn't foster honest debate. Sometimes he would set a trap and lure someone into it just to humiliate the other in debate and exalt himself.

I have not meant to call you George or Adolph, nor have I accused you of evil. I simply suggest that, for reasons I cannot explain, you behave in manners that resemble his: demeaning, oppressing and attempting to control others (your denials not withstanding).

I have called you no names. You have called me idiot, freak, poser and basically dishonest. You have accused me of "ingratiating myself" to you. I can only assume that claim is based on some posts or personal messages where I did not oppose you. Frankly, I would love to be on friendly terms with you, but I don't know how to do that (a difficulty I have rarely encountered).

I have personally defended you to others in responses to e-mails which questioned your judgment or integrity, but I have never done so publicly for the very purpose of not appearing to ingratiate you. I have nothing bad to say about you, nor do I mean to demean you before others.

I have attempted to address you personally on matters of concern. Rather than engage in private exchanges of ideas, you have refused me and instead brought the matter to the BB to mock me. You even brag of your mocking of those who disagree with you.

You say I seek to gain some edge over you, to "score a zinger." I was already trying to wean myself from such a lifestyle when Tom and Mark met me in the '60s & '70s. Admittedly, when I first came to this board (two years ago?), sarcastic debate was in vogue here, and I entered into it. But it is wrong for me, and I attempt to avoid it. Possibly, you may read some of your own personality and methods into my words, thus thinking that I am intending what you would be intending if you had said them. I've certainly done that to others many times.

Christ is building, through His saints, one new Man. We don't need an "edge" over one another. We need to find and occupy what ground we have in common. I'm sorry that you find my mentions of Christ distasteful, but I am being who I am. It took me a very long time to begin to realize the enormity of who Christ is and what He has done for us. The more I learn of Him, the more I realize how little I appreciate His sacrifice, and the relationship between us that it has purchased. I do not wish to be, or to seem to be ashamed to speak of Him. If you find such speech sickening or distasteful, I am sorry, but I can only refer you to Eph.4:29-32. The fact that you do not like to speak of Christ in the same manner I do tells me nothing at all about your soul, but is understandable to me in light of our assembly past. I experienced a long spell of distaste for it myself before I finally began to understand the meaning of God's grace and how it affects us. It reminded me of George's (and MY) phoniness in the assembly. I had to learn that it was the speaker (GG, me, etc) that was phony and not the subject matter-- we had been faking what generations who preceeded us had said in earnest. I try to be very careful to mean every word I say now-- even hope to succeed at it eventually...

If all my posts are still available, you will find that I have admitted when I see that I'm wrong. I think you even said that I was "courageous" for doing so on one occasion. I did not and do not feel courageous, but I am as honest as I know how to be. If I am self-deceived, then that's where I must count on the ministry of other members of Christ's body to help me see the truth about myself. You have been instrumental in that respect, which I have never denied.

I did not call you a shepherd, but suggested that others regard you as such. There are readers here whose only Christian contact is this BB. I do not consider this a church in the classic or the scriptural sense, and yet all believers are parts of the church universal. You are listed here as an "administrator" and your name appears in color. You have the ability to delete or edit posts, and have threatened to edit Lenore's posts under certain conditions. That may have been not a threat but just one of your clever ironic ways of making a point, but Lenore clearly took it seriously. At any rate, I believe that some on the BB regard you, because of your strong opinions and your authoritative powers, to be a shepherd of the Lord's people hereabouts. If that is so, then your denying it won't change their minds.

Bottom line: I consider Brent Tr0ckman a brother in Christ and I have no reason to think otherwise about him. As such, he is a sinner saved by grace, as yet imperfect, and in need of the ministry of the rest of Christ's body (just as I am, and are all others who Christ has claimed).

I have not called Brent Adolph, or George, or evil, or any other detrimental name or title that I am aware of.

I have stated that some of Brent's behavior toward his brethren smacks of assembly leadership behavior as exemplified by the behavior of George Geftakys. This is not comparing the one man to the other.

Let me say it as plainly as I know how: Brent is not evil. Brent is not bad. Brent is saved, sanctified and on his way to heaven.

But Brent is not perfect, and some of his behavior is detrimental and damaging (as is some of mine, and that of the others who Christ has claimed for His own).

...and all I mean is to acknowledge that I and my brethren who read this belong to God, when I close by saying

In Christ,
al

: al Hartman May 02, 2005, 07:16:02 PM

Brent,

Thanks. It was an honest question. I thought that my saying "just curious" would make that plain. I prefer not to engage in cat-&-mouse trickery. Plain conversation is difficult enough on the BB without playing games. I'd appreciate your pointing out what part of my post is not part of the direct question... the part where you wonder exactly what I was "trying to get at"?

I asked. You answered. Shouldn't that suffice without our needing to imply hidden motives?

Again, I would be obliged if you would point out any instance on this thread where I have given you what you deem "crap," Brent. I can't help however it is that you feel or think about me, but I have gone to extremes to not be unnecessarily confrontational with you. Although I disagree with much of what you say, and am both hurt and concerned by the way you appear to treat others, you are responsible to Christ for all that and I have no reason or desire to want you to answer to me for anything. As for the subject of the welfare system, I had not considered it evil (it hadn't occurred to me), but otherwise I pretty much share your opinion of how it is operated and what it has become.

OK,

I guess I mis-read you. You weren't really saying I was like George, only that George's attributes parallell my conduct on the BB. There's a difference there, a subtle difference that was lost on me when I read your post the first few times.

You clarified it with this:

I have not meant to call you George or Adolph, nor have I accused you of evil. I simply suggest that, for reasons I cannot explain, you behave in manners that resemble his: demeaning, oppressing and attempting to control others (your denials not withstanding).

OK, let's say, for the sake of discussion that I demean people, oppress them and attempt to control them.

I am demeaning towards you, for instance. I admit it. Oppressive? I guess if someone were to put way too much of their life into the BB I could be oppressive, but isn't that their problem?

Controlling? Nope. I can't see it. If that were the case you wouldn't be able to say any of this.

Again, if I am exhibiting attributes of George with my conduct on the BB, and one of those attributes is that I have groupies, who are they? You should name them. I take it you aren't one of them?

[vapid spiritual sounding language here........................................]

Brent

: CAGirl May 03, 2005, 08:46:57 AM

Just thought I’d add this here. I was in a hospital for mental illness for a straight month. I was there for treatment of bi-polar but sat in many meetings with women suffering from chronic depression. I observed two things.

One- the women that focused on their disabilities and depression seemed to be stuck. They were so busy discussing how depressed they were or how hard it was that they couldn’t imagine any other sort of life. This had become their identity. When anyone tried to offer a solution to them that may work they got themselves into a panic at the thought and became very defensive of there depression. I heard lots or “I can’t” “it’s to hard” “you don’t understand” “You don’t know” And these were all ways they put you and the idea at arms length.

Two- This one started to happen to me. Going to meetings and groups with a daily focus on the depression and symptoms you were experiencing began to get me into a rut. I walked out of there and found it hard to walk on my own two legs. I found that there is such a thing as to much support. I need time away from the group to try things out. Give myself a chance to fail. I don’t know about anyone else but I learn best from my mistakes.

Beautiful, CAgirl! You've said it all.

Nursing depression in long-term support groups does not cure it. Even with severe depression, you have to get going again even when it doesn't seem that you are getting anywhere. Go through the motions, structure your life to have some control over it, but you can't just sit. There are many people with chronic depression who work. There are many people with chronic diseases who work. People with Parkinson's Disease work. Blind people work. Deaf people work (full-time vet). A woman with one arm works as a chashier. A woman with sarcoidosis worked with oxygen until the day she died. I could go on and on. A bi-polar woman, with a B.A. degree, works as a very respected teacher aide at the high school level. She is not listless, as was a suggested result of medicating a bi-polar patient. in someone else's post!

Anyone else, don't tell me that I don't know, because I've been there with situational and chemically imbalanced depression. The one who helped me the most, and who I thought was cruel at the time, was a friend who wasn't afraid to tell the truth. The other one was a doctor(GP) who had been through a major breakdown and suffered through depressive episodes for the rest of his life and learned how to live in spite of them. Those closest to me mocked me, stigmatized me, and held me up to be a unfaithful example of a Christian.

Someone wants to talk "post traumatic stress syndrome"? A lot of us have stories to tell, and the afteraffects of them. I think that stress causes our bodies to age more quickly. I have ailments, too, but I'm going until it doesn't work anymore. Am I bragging? NO. But I am determined.

Support groups can help you accept yourself and your problems, especially when no one else can, and when you believe in your mind that God also has left you, but support groups as a way of life just keeps the pus oozing.

My opinion is that mental illness is overdiagnosed to cover up the fact that other medical problems are underdiagnosed for the purpose of concealing the epidemic of illnesses caused by food additives. I believe that the obesity epidemic is due to an epidemic of Cushing's Syndrome, which is a hormonal imbalance caused by either cancer or problems with the pituitary gland or adrenal glands. There also seems to be an epidemic of pituitary tumors. Another epidemic is of digestive and colon problems. These can all be traced to eating food that has obnoxious substances in it. The poor will naturally tend to eat more food of bad quality, and therefore suffer more of these illnesses.

I've read a number of books on biochemistry and a book about the molecular biology of the neuron. One interesting thing that I learned about neurons is that no two of them are alike. They are designed for maximizing their diversity so that they can distinguish the maximum number of kinds of sensations. This all requires a precision calibration mechanism to optimize their function. It is clear from this that psychoactive drugs throw a monkeywrench into the system by upsetting the calibration. Each time a pill is taken is like being punched by a boxer because of the sudden change of the chemical balance. It is obvious that this can't be good for the brain. The brain has to try to recalibrate in order to cope with the new chemical balance, like trying to set up the pieces on a chessboard that has been bumped, knocking them over. Some pieces end up in the wrong positions. Psychoactive drugs should only be prescribed in extreme circumstances.

One book that I read was about copper metabolism. A large percentage of the copper in the body is in the brain. A major way that it is used is in the enzyme that synthesizes serotonin, so a copper deficiency will produce symptoms of depression. Unfortunately, taking a supplement to make up such a deficiency may be hazardous, because the deficiency may actually be caused by cancer. Cancer cells love certain minerals, such as copper and calcium. There is also a hazard of toxicity from taking too much copper. The balance is quite delicate. Another cause of deficiency could be poor absorption of certain nutrients from damage to the digestive tract caused by obnoxious ingredients in food. Another thing that the brain needs is essential fatty acids. Neurons are so numerous that they need these special fatty acids for their membranes, so that the membranes are thin enough to fit in the cramped space. Nuts (but not peanuts) contain essential fatty acids and reasonably small amounts of copper, so they are good for the brain. Taking mineral supplements is not recommended for anyone that might have cancer. Shellfish contain very large amounts of copper and other minerals, and are not good for someone who might have cancer. Shellfish blood is blue, being copper-based rather than iron-based. I speculate that maybe the expression "happy as a clam" comes from the copper in the clams that tends to improve mood. To repeat, copper balance is delicate, so don't eat too much shellfish. For those who are Japanese, squid and octopus also have copper-based blue blood, and several varieties of seaweed also have very high mineral content. (Many insects have copper-based green blood. The ant that I looked at under the microscope had iron-based red blood, which makes sense. Iron-based blood is more efficient and is better for a high-energy creature like an ant.)

(post number 17777 = 29 * 613)

: moonflower2 May 03, 2005, 09:39:12 AM

Ok...I understand that YES-there are people with one arm who can work, people who are deaf can work, etc...however, that doesn't necessarily mean that people suffering from mental illness can work too. There ARE people with mental illness who can and do work, and I applaude them. But there is also that handful of people who can not. Who are we to judge another?

I will work when I am mentally stable enough to work. I have not been "tooting my own horn". The decisions concerning my health are recommended by a doctor with whom I have worked closely with for over three years. Trust me-this man, a trained professional, could easily see if I were "faking it" or not!

I used to be one of those people that got mad because I was working and others were on assistance. Although there are some who abuse the system, not everyone does. Research DOES back this up!

This letter is being shared with permission from Lenore. Please read it and decide for yourselves if she is able to work (not that it's really anyone's business) The red areas are my doing, I thought it should be highlighted...

*******************************

Hello Eulaha:
Welcome to Canada.

I am still stinging a bit and angry to boot over being raked over the coals, and it is not so fun to watch people talk about you, as if you weren't going to ease drop into the conversation.

I tear up, when I see [hear] the support that I received.

I thank you for your concern, I appreciated it.

I will tell you a bit about my depression.

Every time the chronic depression gets a hold of me , I get contemplating suicide.

A year ago, my youngest daughter moved out. She is dont die. She and I couldn't get a long, I make a lot of mistakes , I feel quilty about that. But I am coming to the realization, I DID THE BEST I COULD WITH WHAT I HAD AT THE TIME.

I am working on not being the VICTIM, I have been abused as a child, as a wife, and as mother.
I also been emotionally abused by an employer.

I go to the Community Mental Health Organization, where I received counselling. But it is also a socialization group, with activities.

I am high functioning. But there are others who are not.
It is a fun time, which I have had very little of.

I am on social assistance, and live in social housing.

I am applying for disability.

Not only my chronic depression, which is always there, never leaves me.

I also have a severe bladder problem.
Which I can change my clothes several times a day despite bladder control protection. I was ridiculed in my last job for odor, despite bathing, powdering, and perfuming.

I am also obese, but I am getting the exercise to help tone me up to make me fit, to strength me physically. I am working on me, to improve me, so one day I can get a job and support myself. What ever that will be? I have limitations.

I am also severely hearing impaired and going worse.

I also have chronic fatigue, and severe arthritic pain. So the Yoga which was only for 8 weeks, is really helping me in that area. It is funny, too Yoga is also a great confident booster, which I was having some pride in myself for being able to do it. At least until Saturday, as if it was something shameful that I shouldnt be doing.

Again bowling is for socialization, and getting exercise.

I only been doing all these activities for a year, thanks to the Community Mental Health Clinic of which I am a client.

I have even been fortunate enough to have been asked by the above organization to go on few conference trips, all expenses paid, workshop is called RECOVERY BASED MENTAL ILLNESS. It is an opportunity to learn about my illness.

I would love to be able to go back to school, because I love to learn.

My barriers are I dont drive. And in Ontario. You pay for your own secondary education. I am already in debt severely, SO getting a loan will not be easy.

Recently I have been crying to God, to help me out of the social assistance , to be able to afford my own house, to help me with my fractured family, but He keeps telling me to be contented. I want to be able to pay off my debts.
I would love to be able to go to school. I would love to be self supporting.

On Saturday, with Brent's prejudice, it just reinforced to me what a failure I was. I failed as a parent, I failed as a provider, I failed........
That is one of the lies that is wheeling in my brain , that I have been working on that I am not a failure. I am worth something.

You know something. Why is it that people look down on social assistance people if they have a microwave? I purchased my microwave 15 years ago, with a income tax return. I pay for my animal vaccination shots with my income tax return. Canadian get rebates from the government for the Sales tax.

Even if I could afford the cablevision, or if I am paying the Internet. What is it to people, that we choose to buy with our social assistance support money?
If I choose not to have steak for a meal, and buy something that would make me appear "normal", why can't they see, that it is an attempt to be a part of the accepted society, which is stupid I know.

Why are people so narrow-minded that they cannot accept? There were a couple of postings of Brent's that I dont understand. Well he didnt want to understand. He had his mind set on what social assistance people are all about. He didnt want to learn the in's and out's of a person on social assistance.

YOU MAY SHARE THIS WITH THE BB, anything I am telling you.
Sorry , I am a writer, so any letter you receive from me will get into a book length. that's the way I am.

I am doing better, I am like a moth to the flame.I keep checking out the BB.
I enjoy it. I didnt know that people were making fun of me.-

I heard you were completing your education. GREAT NEWS!. It is a wonderful achievement.
Severe depression is no picnic. It is hard to sometimes even wanting to get out of bed. Some time you don't get out of bed. Because you body, and your mind, tells you that you are unable to get out of bed. You become exhausted physically and mentally.

Here in Ontario, Canada, we dont receive food stamps. We receive a lump sum of money. The maximum a single person can receive is $535. And that will flunctuate from month to month, on what my utilities bills are.
If I pay lower, I receive lower, If I pay higher I get higher. I have been as low as $425 for the month.
When I was raising my girls all I able to get was a part- time minimum wage jobs. I got a little more social assistance when my girls were living with me. I enjoyed working. I especially enjoyed working with the public, and for the jobs I had in the last 15 years, it was meeting the public.

I loved my last job at the drug store, but that was the job, that even put me on report for having a smell. And I was falsely accused of something I know I didn't do. WHen I cried, I was ridiculed for crying. That was one year ago. It was the year my daughter left my house, and went to live with a Christian couple who are friends of my. I end up with a mild breakdown, a year after suffering a major one. It has taken me a year as a client of the Community Mental Health to get to the point where I was bragging on my "Daily Chatting" posts.
I just want to socialize with you people on the BB. Sharing my life. I didn't think I was being scorned, and ridiculed, and made fun of.

There is so much negativity on the BB. I wanted to be in a place of getting to know each other better. I guess I failed in that one too.

I wrote back to Brent in a post called A PERSONAL LETTER TO:

It was my anger and pain and hurt that was speaking, but I hope it wasnt too harsh, and I hope people on the BB, would take it as such, as venting out all my hurt that is inside.

Brent is also a liar. I did apology for calling him Hilter. It is in one of the Post, I can remember which one, that I enter a conversation without understanding what was being read first. That is the second experience with Brent's overbearing attitude. But I will give him that- he didnt remember.

I want to say thank you for writing, I will keep your email on my address book if that is okay with you. You may receive e-cards from time to time.

Thanks again.

Yours in Christ.

Lenore

: Eulaha L. May 04, 2005, 05:47:52 AM

Hi Eulaha,

If a person can't work, they can't work. Virtually every person is limited in some way with regard to what they can do for work. For example, I am physically unable to be an NBA basketball player. No amount of support and recovery could ever make me capable. I can, however, do other things.

I look at it this way, if a person is physically capable of doing certain things, but has a hard time with others, they should look for a job that fits into the category of things they can do.

Sometimes, that means starting off at "the bottom." I've done fast food, telemarketing, construction clean-up, dishwashing, curb number painting, horse stable mucking, window washing, pizza making, chiropractic and poker.

My favorite so far is Chiropractic, with curb painting being the most flexible. Poker is showing some signs of promise.

If someone can walk, talk and reason at some level, there is some type of work that they can do.

On the other hand, if a person is too sick to stand, sit, talk, or reason, they can't work. It's that simple.

The problem is when people who are capable of being productive, for one reason or the other, choose not to work. It's that type of person that this thread is targeting. We don't want to be like that.

I think you should concentrate on getting your degree this year, as you stated below. Try to get some part-time work ASAP, if you are physically able. All the research I have read states that education and work are key components in the recovery from mental illness and depression.

I always thought it would be fun to be an all-night gas station attendant. You hardly do anything, and can read and be on the Internet. (I'm not saying you should do this, just that it sounds fun to me.)

Brent

: Brent A. Tr0ckman May 04, 2005, 06:08:37 AM

Brent, since this thread is continuing, I just wanted to add that I noticed the same things about the Mexicans living in my town, that you noticed about the illegals in your area.The majority of them in my town are legal and everyone in the house is working. They will do any job.

It reminded me of the first job that my grandfather had in America. He collected cinders in an open wagon and dumped them in the landfill area at the lake front during the incredibly cold Chicago winters. He and his brother made enough money in one year to pay for the passage of the rest of the family. Family totaled 13 people, not including a brother's wife and kids. He continued with the job of cleaning up horse crap in an open wagon and later started his own garbage business, which his sons then took over for a while. They used to joke about it, and referred to themselves as "sanitary engineers".

They started out living in what looked like a ghetto, but eventually moved to the suburbs, where his sons grew up and eventually found jobs in each of their fields of interest and ability. What he did still amazes me, and I guess I'm just kind of lighting a candle for him (if I were a Catholic). :)

: moonflower2 May 04, 2005, 08:15:42 AM

America has a rich legacy of hard work, risk taking, and people who made a huge difference. People would have never considered welfare at one time. They took care of eachother, and didn't dream that it was the governments job to do what was the purview of family and church.

Do you feel that you were mentally ill at one time? Are you still mentally ill?

Brent

: Brent A. Tr0ckman May 04, 2005, 08:28:29 AM

Looking back, I believe that I was for a time.

Am I now?? If I am, I don't know the name for it! Do I sound like I am now ?? Have you perceived something strange about my posts??? Am I now? JUST WHAT ARE YOU IMPLYING!!! WHAT EXACTLY DO YOU MEAN BY THAT QUESTION!! Hey, what's going on here anyway? You work for the FBI? KGB? who are you really? Who else is in on this?

;D Because of my sense of humor, some think I am. But that's okay. It's a stress reliever. ;D Is Jim Carrey mentally ill? Is Robin Williams? Was Andy Kaufman? Is "whose line is it" for the sane?

No, I'm okay now, I think, unless I just don't know the name for it. ;D

I have a tendency toward depression, but it seems to be tied to my health and the genes. I can't do as much as most people. I've got a negative self-perception, like Lenore does, and it's an uphill battle that never really is finished.

I think that getting out and working and just focusing on something else, is a big help for something like depression, (including serious depression) which seems to be the most common ailment around. At one time, I worked 6 hours/week at a warehouse that packaged food, etc., that was given away free. Our pay was two bags of free food every two weeks. My kids thought it was great: Free surprise food.

Moon's prescription for what ails you: Do something.

So did I answer your question completely? Are you satisfied, now? Can I leave, or do you want my fingerprints? Have I now received my membership and badge of honor for this BB? ;) Or do you want more bloody details so you can evaluate me? ;)

: moonflower2 May 04, 2005, 09:47:42 AM

You don't seem mentally ill at all. However, I have a theorey that most people who are chronicly depressed start out mildly depressed and learn to be chroniclly depressed by poor choices and acting depressed.

I've seen people who go both ways, and they overcome or succomb, depending on how hard they try to act normal.

My wife beat her "mental illness" by acting normal, and NOT taking meds, even though she was massively chemically imbalanced. She did take sleeping pills, only when needed.

CAgirl has a similiar story to yours.
Some people have it much worse, but I wonder how many people get "much worse" as a result of practicing being depressed or mentally ill?

It would be incredibly depressing just hanging around the support groups full of depressed people! I always tell my kids to associate with "good" kids, because I know that the company we keep has a huge influence on who we are.

Anyone wanting to be successful in business knows to talk to people who are successful, not to those who failed. You must model success, not failure.

Brent

: moonflower2 May 04, 2005, 10:26:02 AM

Whew! I'm glad I passed the test. ;D

I agree about the choices.

I didn't want to be on any meds, but I couldn't slow my mind and I didn't have adult support during the day, so I was prescribed amytriptiline, which had a mild sedative affect on me. I will still take it at night, when I feel that I cannot put the brakes on. I have never had a sleeping pill. I have a strange and probably unneccesary fear of them.

My mother was tentatively diagnosed to be bi-polar after her final successful suicide attempt, and I wonder if there is a much milder form of that? Just how genetic is that disorder??

There are at least two schools of thought about mental illness: It is learned, or it is genetic. It's not quite that simple, but that's good enough to say that we don't really know why people become mentally ill, many times.

Alchoholism is similiar. People think it's a disease, others think its learned behavior, and others look at it like it's the sin of drunkeness.

In the main, we seem to have bought the idea that it's genetic, along with compulsive gambling and shopping. Then there are those that talk about "addictive personalities."

Here's a controversial thought among evangelicals. If homosexuality is sin, and I believe it is, why do we look at laziness as an illness? I mean, if one character trait is sin, and another is genetic or due to a "mental illness," how can we ever decide which is which? Do we condemn the homosexuals and "support" alchoholics?

I'm not communicating that clearly, because it's late, but hopefully someone sees what i am driving at.

Ultimately, it comes down to whether or not we believe that a person can be healed by God. Is salvation merely a theoretical, theological status, or does being saved actually change something about us?

We all have besetting sins. However, we can't all blame our sins on illness. Have we been saved from the power of sin or not?

Brent

When you boil it down, there is no proof one way or the other. Is it genetic, or does someone learn how to be mentally ill from modelling their parents?

Brent

: Eulaha L. May 04, 2005, 05:47:52 AM

Hi Eulaha,

Yes, I agree that circumstances get people into situations that they would be better off not being in. Though people end up on welfare, it is still best to work towards being self-sufficient, do you agree??

I do not believe that this discussion was meant to be 'all about Lenore'. Lenore turned it that way when she took Brent's honest opinion personally. The winds of doctrine started blowing and I was tossed back and forth agreeing with both sides of the discussion.

Here's a 'hypothetical' situation. 2 mums each with 3-4 kids. Mum1's husband is struggling with depression, while Mum2's is on the ball and on board. Mum1 has this woe is me attitude, I have little kids, I can't do this, I can't ... whine whine whine even when others step up to help her. Mum2 does not use her little kids as an excuse though sometimes, because of them, she is unable to do whatever. WHY?? Why should Mum1 whine when she could have had the very same attitude as Mum2?

I think Brent is saying the same thing here, a lot depends on our attitude. Are we going to allow our circumstances keep us in bondage? Beth Moore is saying something similar in the quotes on the WoundedPilgrim thread. God wants to heal us of all in our past that has kept us in bondage. We need to recognize it and confess it and allow God to heal us.

To quote you and Lenore, "Who are we to judge another?" and lets turn the tables on that one. Get the point. This was meant to be an exchange of opinions on the topic of welfare based on biblical principles and other information. It was not to be 'all about whoever' though each may share their stories and add information to the discussion. When it gets down to " Who are we to judge another?" then maybe we are not listening to the message and are taken up with woe is me.

Moonflower had a profitable discussion last night with Brent because she did not get offended by Brent's opinion. We all learned from it as a result.

Got to go for my 'Breaking Free' study. :)
God bless,
Marcia

: Hugh May 04, 2005, 03:28:10 PM

Brent

God loves you and me and Lenore for who we are. I know you believe you are trying to help but you are ignorant of some things as are all of us. Nobody except GG knows everything. If you really love Lenore have a dialogue and don't assume you have the answers.

I know what I am talking about because the Assembly was full of know it alls and I learned how to become one too. Great good it did me. Now unlike GG I REALLY DO KNOW THAT THE MORE I LIVE THE LESS I REALLY KNOW. GG used to say it but he NEVER really showed it to us. You said don't hang around people who are a bad example well we learned the Bible but we also learned mean spirited self righteous know it all surperiority from GG.

Lord forgive me I don't want to be that way anymore and am trying desperately to put that behind me and I think you may need to look in the mirror.

I know you really care and that is why I DON'T DESPISE YOU and even if you didn't care I should love you. I know you are doing what you believe is best and for that reason I respect you.

I do not invalidate your experience and knowledge I just say that your understanding is not complete.

Lenore needs our prayers.

Hugh

Thanks Hugh.

My understanding is certainly not complete, that's for sure.

Here's a question for everyone: When a difficult topic, or a polarizing idea, or something that is going to offend someone comes up, at what point do we stop talking about it for the sake of politeness?

Everyone says I should have spoken to Lenore in private...we'll, I wasn't even talking to her in the first place. Has anyone bothered to tell her that her posts about me aren't so great? Nope, didn't think so, because as the "weak" one, she has a different set of rules to play by.

Now, I'm not talking about Lenore here. If anything, I'm talking about people I know who have ovecome mental illness and depression, and why some do and some don't.

I know that it makes people uncomfortable, none more so than Lenore. So, at what point should we stop talking about something in order to preserve the comfort of someone?

Brent

: Dave Sable May 04, 2005, 06:55:44 PM

Cut the BS, Brent. You're smart enough to figure out how to handle the situation without running her over with a steamroller. Your like the bully who broke the retarded kid's nose because the retarded kid called him a name. Grow up.

I didn't have time to respond to this earlier, in the way I wanted to. I was hoping someone would say something like this! Thanks Dave!

I don't mind being called a bully, because I know I'm not one. I want people to stand up to me, I invite it, and I don' mind being knocked down by my betters. That's not bullying, that's boxing, or wrestling. My boys spend their days slamming their best friends into the mat, and they like eachother just fine. It's cool!

The part that I want to comment on is how Dave refers to the other party as "retarded." I'm the big fat, mean bully, and the other party is "retarded."

That's the whole problem. Rhetorically speaking, people on welfare, depressed, mentally ill...they have all been taught that they are substandard, and we have been encouraged to treat them as such in the name of compassion.

The other party, according to Dave, isn't my equal. They are substandard....retarded. They should not be expected to act otherwise, they are broken and can't be fixed, they'll never amount to anything, and the compassionate thing to do is to recognize that, treat them as such, and tell 'em their OK just the way they are.

I think that's sick and twisted, not to mention insulting. They need to learn that they are worth something, that they can do it, and that they don't have to stay "retarded."

Moonie, Suzie, Rebecca....they did it. They aren't retarded, although they could have been if they chose to listen!

Here's something I said a while back on this thread that seemed to escape scrutiny:

This really makes me sick. I think some of you have a serious screw loose. You act as if Lenore is retarded, or substandard as a person, and it disgusts me. Does she get a pass for totally misreading me and calling me Hitler? Yes! Why? Because she is stupid? I have no idea, and I don't think she's stupid, but apparently several of you must.

We all have to work at different occupations. We talk about how people need to be held accountable for the things they do. However, I guess Lenore needn't worry. She is so weak and sensitive. She should be able to do whatever she wants, go bowling, drink coffee, take gourmet cooking classes, do yoga, build self-esteem and complain about how hard it is to be on welfare.

It's OK for her to act this way, because she's substandard. She hasn't the skills necessary to build a hamburger, or stuff envelopes. She's just substandard.

What a bunch of post masticated bovine ruminant! What cruel, sick, nasty people you are! What have you done for her, other than to re-inforce the horrible conclusions she has drawn about herself? I bet none of you have given her a dime, or done one thing to help her out, except perhaps Marcia.

I'll adopt your sick, cruel, and debasing ideas for a moment:

Lenore, you should just take it easy and recover. Sleep if you need to, go to classes, do whatever makes you feel better. If something bothers you, learn to shut it out and just be at peace. If you NEVER get to a point where you can work, or do anything, don't worry. God has a pupose for you, but you're so small and weak, so He only has a tiny little purpose. You won't ever do anything great in life. Just get through one day at a time. Don't take any risks, whatever you do. A person like yourself is just not smart enough, tough enough, or determined enough to embark on any great adventure in life.

Live on a single level house...(no stairs to fall down that way) take medicine so you are happy at all times, and do whatever seems nice. Don't plan too far out in the future, because you know that there are always reasons why you can't do things better people do. You aren't good enough, so don't try. God Bless You!

Lenore, I don't believe any of that about you. I don't think you're stupid, or less capable than anyone else. You need to give yourself a try and don't listen to these freaks. Their advice, if followed, would have you in diapers before long. You are a child of God, and you are made whole in Him. Start acting like it!

Brent

Hey everyone! Slow down here. Apparently Brent is wrong and I am retarded cause your all moving too fast for me.

I don’t know how yall stick those quotes in so I hope you can follow me here.
“Cut the BS, Brent. You're smart enough to figure out how to handle the situation without running her over with a steamroller. Your like the bully who broke the retarded kid's nose because the retarded kid called him a name. Grow up.”

Dave, did you just compare poor Lenore with a retarded kid?? lol sorry but that got me. ;D

I just wanted to put this out there. I didn’t mention my “mental illness” as an excuse for anything. My Bi-polar is very real, genetic or not, and something I deal with every day. But it’s the way I look at it that makes the difference. I treat it like a broken arm in a cast. I have to learn to function with the case on. If I’m careful one day I will heal (contrary to what the doctors say). I feel sad when I see or hear about others with “mental illness” who are living like it’s a peg leg. It just bugs me that I can’t grab there shoulder and say “Snap out of this! Come on. Get on your feet and move! It’s the only way.” I’ll just say it’s incredibly frustrating.

Moon,
I’m sorry about your mom. I’ve been there too and :'((thank God) was unsuccessful. As far as there being levels of bi-polar? Totally. If you are depressed every day of your life and then have one manic episode you are technically bi-polar. Some are manic most of the time and some depressed. In my case I swing a lot. Up and down up and down. What a ride.

Brent,
I remember when Suzie was going threw that stuff. I could tell it was hard on her. But I’m glad she didn’t give in. :) I take meds but will NOT touch them if the effects are to strong. I have stacks of ex meds I was on but won't take. It is possible to get the right med to help you without feeling “Drugged” .

: CAGirl May 04, 2005, 11:04:47 PM

A few observations,

Sondra's suggestion to use a "normal" account is a good one. I think I'll do that.

Rebecca, what you are describing is a real, chemical/hormonal imbalance in your body. It's a physical ailment that has all sorts of implications. You deal with it on the physical level with meds, but the most important thing you have done is to learn to function with it.

Had you decided to play the part, you could easily have been a total disaster. Instead, you make a few adustments and get on with life. It sounds like you're doing great. Keep it up!

We are told that we should encourage one another, comfort, exhort, rebuke, admonish, etc. Different approaches for different situations.

I think many of us have no problem telling it straight to someone who was involved in supporting GG, or committing spiritual abuse. At one time, we would have thought doing so was being the mouthpiece of Satan, but now we know better.

In the same manner, many of us don't understand that certain people don't need comfort and encouragement, they need admonishment and rebuke. I'm NOT speaking of Lenore, or anyone in particular, but to the general population of able bodied christians who are on welfare.

I think it's wrong to allow these people to ingest the false, powerless image they are being fed by their "supporters." It's insulting to them, and it only "embiggins" the negative image they have of themselves. What kind of Gospel is that? Paul was clear about his sort of thing in his discourse about who is a true widow, and how the others should be treated. Even without that guidance, how good is it for someone to be dependent on welfare, especially when they don't need to be?

We have right here on this board people who have fought this monster and have beaten it. Pay attention to what they have to say.

The last thing I want to point out is the "retarded" illustration by Dave. Dave is an honest, straight shooting guy, and I hope he tells us what exactly he was thinking by using that particular illustration. I don't think it was a slip of the tongue, because Dave is a very bright guy. I think the word "retarded" came out because it accurately reflects certain conclusions he has.

Here's what I think, but I defer to him to set the record straight. I don't want to put thoughts in his head that weren't there.

I think that deep down inside, he sees Lenore as someone who has problems so big that there isn't much hope for her. He sees her as being so fragile that she'll break with almost any pressure applied to her, and that the best thing to do is to avoid that. Moving past this fragility is unlikely and messy, and isn't worth it. He pities her, but at the same time doesn't expect much from her and can't ever imagine her doing anything other than coping day to day. He see's her as not being very smart, and being totally outclassed and overpowered by a person like me.

This last sentence is especially troubling, because he doesn't have a very high opinion of me, which means his opinion of Lenore must be really low.

Dave, if you are reading, please set the record straight. I'm just sharing my interpretation, based on my observations of how many, many christians treat folks like Lenore. I used the word retarded before you did, which I find interesting.

I see Lenore as being pretty sharp. I think if she just got out and tried her new wings she might find out she can fly.

Brent

: Brent A. Tr0ckman May 04, 2005, 06:37:43 PM

Brent

I have no idea why Lenore got in the middle but she did. I did mention that she should step back and consider what applies and take the rest to the Lord. Why because after seeing you on the BB I know you have a flamboyant style and that gets people involved which is good. Lenore took it personally though and it has hurt.

I know you did not mean to hurt but rather to help and I do know that faithful are the wounds of a friend. I think both you and Lenore aren't talking on the same wavelength.

I for one am just as annoyed as you when someone MILKS the system. I however don't always know the back story to be able to properly discern when someone is really in need and when they are taking me for a ride.

I think that is why I trust a professional or some counselor who has more experience than me. You are right though that to coddle some is hurting them but I think Lenore needs time to see your side and you need time to ask about her side. It is unfortunate that now it is a cleanup operation.

As to should you talk about Welfare in a generic sense or any other controversial topic YES. I enjoy your candor and have learned allot from it.

So I think an olive branch for LENORE even though you did not really start it as you said and I agree but it would open the communication Lenore you need to accept it and get talking.

Your unofficial moderator hopefully

Hugh

: Hugh May 05, 2005, 03:43:27 AM

Hi Hugh

this is the new me. No red letters on this screen name, but same meek, gently spirit behind every post.

Lenore sent me an email, and let's just say she's not ready to receive an olive branch just yet. I know she will be in time, no doubt about it.

The plain fact is that some people need help, and that's OK. However, to me that means helping them heal, and not letting them get away with something negative.

I maintain that Lenore has far more on the ball than she realizes, and she could surprise herself if she tried. That is going to be the hard part, she must try.

Brent

: Hugh May 05, 2005, 03:43:27 AM

I think that is why I trust a professional or some counselor who has more experience than me. You are right though that to coddle some is hurting them but I think Lenore needs time to see your side and you need time to ask about her side. It is unfortunate that now it is a cleanup operation.

I honestly don't know how it works elsewhere, but in CA, a person who works for social services gets promoted on the basis of case load.

The more clients they have, the farther they move up the tiered system, and the more of a pay hike the receive. If you want more money, you must sign up more people for "services."

This can be done in many different ways, but here's one of them. If a 22 year old woman comes in for food stamps and some other program....if you also arrange for her to have an abortion paid for by California, you get more points, which means you are nearer to a promotion. Is that sick or what?

But wait! It gets better. I am most familiar with Medi-cal, or California's Welfare/Free Medical program.

Medi-Cal is about the most comprehensive, well-paying insurance in the world when it comes to pregnant, unwed mothers. It covers everything, check-ups, ultrasound, all meds, surgury, delivery, diapers, formula, birth and baby classes, psychiatric care, breast feeding....you name it, all covered at 100%.

OB GYN's, who only a few years ago were mostly seeing privately insured or cash paying patients, are now seeing tons of welfare patients. The way they make money is by ordering everything in the book, doing as many procedures as possible, in order to get the max payment. That's how it's done, and that's what they're doing.

Mental Health workers are the same way. Their patient population is heavily weighted with with welfare patients. Do you honestly think they are going to send the profit out the front door, when they can continue to bill ad infinitum? There is no limit, and they make a good living off of perpetual third party payments courtesy of the tax-payor.

I can tell you as a "healthcare provider," it is a tremendous temptation when faced with a patient who wants to come in all the time, and who pays every time, to simply let them keep coming, whether they need it or not! It is even more compounded when it is possible to aquire 2 or 3 hundred patients of this sort. That's Medi-Cal. The trained professionals and counselors you mention make their living by keeping these people "accessing" the system. There is no incentive whatsoever to get the patient/client off the dole.

Don't even get me started on prisons, and what goes on in the mental health/medical care fields there. (I'm sure I will get started on it, just give me time.)

So, in "nut"shell, the last person I would trust to make an unbiased determination of whether or not a person needs to be on welfare is a "trained professional," who has more than 5% of his practice from welfare. Most practicioners who accept Medi-Cal are at about 90% of their patient load from this type of patient. It would be a disaster for them financially, if the leaky faucet were to be fixed.

Just so everyone knows, in my practice I don't accept Medi-Cal, of Medi-Care, or any other insurance with the exception of auto insurance when it is NOT the patient's fault.

If anyone is interested, I'd be happy to share about my journey into the dark side of "milking the system." I have dabbled with it, in the past,(legally of course) and I am ashamed of it.

Brent

: BAT May 05, 2005, 05:26:31 AM

BAT,

Here where I love, most doctors DO NOT accept Medicaid. It's very difficult to find a doctor who does.

As far as welfare goes, there is a mandatory 45-day wait.

It took me 2.5 years in order to receive social security disability.

About two years ago, I had a psychiatrist who actually ENCOURAGES her clients to go out and find work. She worked for a mental health organization; she is now seeing clients in her own office.

: BAT May 05, 2005, 05:26:31 AM

: Eulaha L. May 05, 2005, 07:01:26 AM

In California, most doctors don't accept medical either...with the exception of OBGYN's. However, there are those that base their entire practice on Medi-cal, and bill for as many services as they possibly can. These are the one's who get people "access," into the various programs from. There is obviously a huge incentive to get more people deeper into the system in California.

At the top of my post I said,

I honestly don't know how it works elsewhere, but in CA, a person who works for social services gets promoted on the basis of case load.

What I meant by saying that is that I don't know what it is like outside CA. The system here is terrible. I'm glad to hear it's better in New York. A 2.5 year wait to get on Social Security is about normal for anyone under 50, unless they have brain damage or paralysis.

You said this:

About two years ago, I had a psychiatrist who actually ENCOURAGES her clients to go out and find work. She worked for a mental health organization; she is now seeing clients in her own office.

Do you still have this same psychiatrist?
Did the others you saw/see encourage people to find work?
Is this psychiatrist still working for the mental health org? Does she still take medicaid?

I really like this type of psychiatrist!

Did she encourage you to get work, or were you incapacitated at that time.

Please dont' get offended, I am truly curious to hear how it is from someone in the system.

No kidding, I mean this.

Tonite I thought of a terrific job for anyone. Learn to deal poker...not hard to do.
The environment is non-smoking, and the rules of employment are strict and unwavering. Dealers make 40-60 dollars an hour in CA, more in the higher limit games.

I tipped the dealer about 40 dollars tonite, as I had a really good game. She made almost as much as I did however, and she didn't have to risk a dime...not bad.

Something to think about.

Brent

: Marcia May 05, 2005, 05:44:36 PM

Based on what Lenore has publicly posted, welfare, in this case, only provides for Lenore to live below the poverty level. I sincerly want the best for Lenore, and hope that she will be able to break free from welfare bondage, and be able to have better living conditions.

Re. professional help, is any of your counsellors named Cloris Leachman ;)? If it's anything like One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest then.... I found that I disagreed with much of the counselling another friend of mine received, but was ignorant re. the medication aspect. I like CAGirl's comment that, generally speaking, support groups only circulate the poison and do not truly help with the healing process.

Marcia

Lenore has been sending me emails which she says I can share in public...but I'm not going to. With the exception of the latest one, which she demands I share on the BB. Other's are getting these emails as well, and Al is certainly getting them, and seems to be functioning as Lenore's guide. (All in the mutual bond of love...etc.)

I'll just say a few things about this and then I am going to totally drop any reference to Lenore. Please note, that doesn't mean I am not going to talk about welfare, or any other topic, but I am not going to directly refer to Lenore, barring any unforseen circumstances.

Lenore's direct words to me are abusive and are definitely "vicious personal attacks." She has gone way past anything I said and has NOTHING good to say about me. I am reminded of the way bums and panhandlers respond if you question why they have change for a fifty. (see a number of posts below)

Again, I wasn't talking about her, but welfare in general. Obviously it hit a nerve in her. She, along with others, accuses me of calling her a "fat, lazy welfare @#$%." I did no such thing. According to her, I am a really horrible person, who doesn't even read her letters, etc. I am too proud, a bad christian, etc. But it's OK for her to say all that, cause she's needy.

She demanded that I post this email in public. I wouldn't have done it, but again, she demanded it. I don't know why she doesn't have Al do it for her, but since she wants me to do it, I'll oblige her this time.

I'll issue this disclaimer first:

I am pretty sure that Al Hartman is behind this, and that Lenore is following his advice. That's the way her emails read to me. If that is the case, she is being used by Al for another lame attempt at "zinging" me. Shame on you Al, if you're doing this. If you're not directly behind this, she is certainly listening to you and confiding in you, why don't you tell her to stop this? She claims that I have undone 1-2 years of recovery, things that God was doing in her life. Why in the world would you counsel her to demand that I post her challenge to me? Or, if it's not your idea, why are you letting her do it? You should be talking her out of it.

If Al is behind this, I don't hold Lenore responsible. Hopefully, one of them will be truthful enough to admit it if this is the case.

The first part is her conversation with Al, The bold type is where she "challenges" me.

I guess I cannot let this go as quickly as I hoped.
My emotions are off the scale and all over the place.

Thank you so much for all of your support and encouragement, and I do appreciate your friendships in all of this.

enclosed is a challenged:

Dear Brent:

Going back to your offer:

Review what I have told you about myself, my medical and emotionals conditions.

WOULD YOU HIRE ME IN YOUR OFFICE, AND TRAIN ME TO UPGRADE THE SKILLS THAT I COULD BE LACKING.

WHY AND WHY NOT?

IF YOU WOULD HIRE ME IN YOUR OFFICE.

I may be attempt to accept your offer of an apartment and a job.

I ALSO WANT YOU TO SHARE THIS WITH THE BB PUBLIC.

BECAUSE IT HAS BEARING ON MY DECISION.

Just another challenge.
Review my resume as well.
=============================================

Review all that I have said on the BB, and have shared with you individually.

Including my physical state, my emotional state, and my 48 years, and my 285 lbs.

Review the Resume pieces I shared on the BB.

I will give you all the same question:

I want to be in an office setting, meeting the public.
i.e. Bank Teller. Data Entry Personnell,
Receptionist, anything that will meeting public and
put to use my skills which I was trained 30 years ago for.

If you own a business, who you hire me at th is present time.

Give your reasons why and why not.

PLEASE FEEL FREE , TO SHARE THIS LETTER ON THE BB AND YOUR ANSWERS AS WELL.

OK. Lenore.

First of all, the "offer" was for a house and a job making Pizza. I said nothing about you working in my office. I am already staffed at this time.
You lament the fact that you only get 535.00 per month, but you turned down an offer that would have made you far, far more than that.

Would I hire you? Not willingly, at the present time, because I would be worried that you might have a tantrum on the job. Pizza is different from people, it doesn't talk back or ask questions, and it isn't put off by a bad attitude. It is easy to work with, compared to people.

RE Your weight--- (mentioned by you, not me) Not an issue. A smile and kindly demeanor is everything. I'm a littel overweight myself.

RE your skills--with a proper attitude and a desire to work, you could be easily trained to work in my office. You already possess the skills needed, we would just need to teach you how to apply them in my office. Lots of telephone work, and people skills, very little computer/technical work.

RE your resume---I agree, you are certainly able to work.

RE---your accepting my offer. Well, you already turned it down and had a tantrum about it, didn't you? You have typed several pages of direct insults and abusive speech to me, (with brother Al Hartman's approval in Christ of course) so I'm a little surprised you now want to reconsider my offer. What has changed?

Unfortunately, the original offer was rejected by you, and is withdrawn. You can't accept it, because you already rejected it and me.

However, since you are willing to consider having a job and house handed to you in sunny California, I will tender a new offer.

You may work in my office. I will start you out at 7 dollars per hour.
You may get the free house, which is about 2 blocks away from where I live.
You must ride to work with me, because you don't drive.
If you come to work with a tantrum, smelling or ungroomed(as you mention in your posts and emails) you will be warned, then fired.
You will be expected to perform your duties at work in a satisfactory manner, IE answering the phone the way you are supposed to, collecting money from people, scheduling appointments, etc. You must be an asset, not a liability. Office work is harder than pizza making.

You must provide for your trip here, and return trip to Arnprior, should things not work out.

The house, should you decide to quit employment or get fired, will be provided for 2 weeks past your employment termination, unless you make individual arrangements with the landlord. The total term of the free house will be one year, after which time you will have to provide for your own room and board.

I am pretty sure the owner of the house will go for this, but I need to inform her of some of the recent events before I say for sure.

So, that's the new offer.

You get yourself out here, I'll give you a job and house, but you must get yourself home if you don't like it. The pizza guy doesn't want you now. He's worried you won't be reliable, and he'll be stuck without a worker.

7.00 per hour*25 hours per week=175 per week*4.2 weeks=735.00 per month....rent free. You would have to buy food, clothing, sundries, etc.

With a good work ethic, you could easily get promoted and make more money, even get your own place.

That's my offer.

Al Hartman You suck at Poker.

Brent

I borrowed this from Sondra,

The author gave me permission as well,

Love him or hate him, he sure hits the nail on the head with this!
To anyone with kids of any age, here's some advice.

Bill Gates recently gave a speech at a High School about 11 things
they did not and will not learn in school. He talks about how feel-good,
politically correct teachings created a generation of kids with no concept
of reality and how this concept set them up for failure in the real world.

Rule 1: Life is not fair - get used to it!

Rule 2: The world won't care about your self-esteem. The world
will expect you to accomplish something BEFORE you feel good about
yourself.

Rule 3: You will NOT make $60,000 a year right out of high school.
You won't be a vice-president with a car phone until you earn both.

Rule 4: If you think your teacher is tough, wait ! till you get a
boss.

Rule 5: Flipping burgers is not beneath your dignity. Your
Grandparents had a different word for burger flipping: they called
it opportunity.

Rule 6: If you mess up, it's not your parents' fault, so don't
whine about your mistakes, learn from them.

Rule 7: Before you were born, your parents weren't as boring as they
are now. They got that way from paying your bills, cleaning your clothes
and listening to you talk about how cool you thought you were. So before
you save the rain forest from the parasites of your parent's generation,
try delousing the closet in your own room.

Rule 8: Your school may have done away with winners and losers, but
life HAS NOT. In some schools, they have abolished failing grades and
they'll give you as MANY TIMES as you want to get the right answer. This
doesn't bear the slightest resemblance to ANYTHING in real life.

Rule 9: Life is not divided into semesters. You don't get summers
off and very few employers are interested in helping you FIND YOURSELF.
Do that on your own time.

Rule 10: Television is NOT real life. In real life people actually
have to leave the coffee shop and go to jobs.

Rule 11: Be nice to nerds. Chances are you'll end up working for
one.

If you agree, pass it on.
If you can read this - Thank a teacher!
If you are reading it in English -Thank a soldier!!

: BAT May 12, 2005, 08:30:28 PM

Without any refernce to the merit of what was stated, that "speech" as been quite commonly incorrectly attributed to Bill Gates. I guess it is the nature of cyberspace...
Verne

I've been thinking about the things I've discovered about my own life situation as compared to the posts in this thread. I have a daughter who has an IEP at school - that means she gets special accommodations in the classroom. She's not in Special Ed, she's in regular classes. She sees a psychiatrist and a psychologist and she takes meds for her emotional issues. She was diagnosed with depression when she was in second grade and before that we held her back a year before she started school because her preschool teachers were concerned she may have a learning disability.

ANYWAY - she was recently removed from the graduation list at her high school because she is in jeopardy of failing one of her classes. BOTTOM LINE - I apologized to her a couple of weeks ago for treating her like she's incapable. I apologized for all the years that I talked about her problems in front of her as if she were an invalid, possibly exacerbating the situation. I tell her at every opportunity that I know she can do it and I know she's got what it takes. When all's said and done, we can have all the doctors and services available to help her out, but unless she pulls it together and works hard herself, she'll be clueless as to what the real world is like and what she has ahead of her. Not to mention she won't graduate. I realize there's worse things in life, and she could always take summer school and get her diploma in the mail, but we've been through too much and we've come too far and she needs to walk across that platform and wear that cap and gown.

I realize that what my daughter is going through isn't on as grand a scale as dealing with welfare reform. But over the years I would find myself stepping back and leaning on the services and expecting the system to fix my daughter's problems for me, and that only made things worse. Things only got better when we were actively involved and communicating with teachers and riding herd on my daughter. We're the ones who needed to do the work, not the system. But that shouldn't have been surprising to me, that's how it should be. I'm the mom, after all! I'm grateful for the doctors and the teachers who have cared about her over the years, and all their hard work to help her. They've been a big part of her progress. She's got four weeks to go and I know she can do it. She's got a huge case of Senior-itis, and she has, basically, mentally checked out as far as school is concerned, so she's kind of sabotaging her own efforts. But I know she can do it.

I've also discovered that when I strip this discussion down to the basics, some of its points can be reduced to something as simple as, my house isn't going to get clean by me sitting here talking on this message board. It means I have to get up and go clean something, which makes me sad, because as far as I'm concerned, life can be divided into two categores: 1. Things that are fun, and 2. Things that are NOT fun. That's it. Two categories. And house cleaning definitely falls into the NOT FUN category. *sigh*

I realize that I am able-bodied and so is my daughter, so many of the important points in this thread can't really be compared straight down the line to me, and that's not my intention. This discussion has been pretty meaningful to me, it has reminded me of a lot of things about myself, and my response was only to talk about how it made me analyze my own life, and not to point fingers at anyone else.

Here's something worth reading. It's very well documented and researched.

The Title of the book is, "One Nation Under Therapy."

Here are two brief reviews from Amazon,

Editorial Reviews

From Publishers Weekly
"Cancer patients who talk about their ordeal in therapy groups do not live longer," write Sommers (Who Stole Feminism?) and Satel (P.C., M.D.) in this suck-it-up polemic. For them, the pervasiveness of therapeutic thinking and practice in American life provides not healing catharsis but enervating psychic drag and evasion of responsibility. The authors marshal a litany of studies from a variety of perspectives, aiming to convince readers that taking one's lumps with as much equanimity as possible is far preferable to exploring one's feelings via an "unwholesome therapism"--or, worse, using one's "therapized" feelings as an excuse for bad behavior. Placing themselves in the tradition of Christopher Lasch and Allan Bloom, they begin with "The Myth of the Fragile Child," decrying the creeping prohibitions on dodgeball and tag (seen by some as too aggressive and competitive) on the nation's playgrounds as coddling. The next chapter, "Esteem Thyself," takes direct aim at the ideas of Abraham Maslow and self-actualization advocate Carl Rogers, while the following chapters chronicle the descent from "Sin to Syndrome" and "Pathos to Pathology," and track the enforcement of "Emotional Correctness." While basically a one-note book with little grace in its description of its foes, or in its insistent call for taking responsibility for one's own actions, Sommers and Satel's jeremiad will likely generate debate.
Copyright © Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.

From Booklist
Philosopher-turned-controversialist Sommers and psychiatrist Satel argue as forcibly against contemporary psychotherapeutic notions and nostrums as Sommers did against radical feminism in Who Stole Feminism? (1994) and The War against Boys (2000). The American Enterprise Institute colleagues question five pet doctrines of contemporary therapy by presenting the research evidence for and against them. That is, they review the relevant literature, letting its conclusions speak for themselves; though they are critical of the five shibboleths, they don't have to apply spin to be convincing. Properly conducted research doesn't, they show, back up the fashionable dogmas that (1) children are psychologically fragile and mustn't be stressed, (2) self-esteem is the sine qua non of psychological health, (3) what moralists call sins are expressions of mental illness, (4) the emotional effects of trauma must be acted out, and (5) all war and disaster witnesses suffer post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). Sure, some kids are hypersensitive, self-esteem isn't unimportant, PTSD is a real condition, and so forth. Folly and worse result, however, when the five dogmas are generalized as they are in current practice, a point Sommers and Satel drive home--anent dogmas 4 and 5, in particular--in the long sixth chapter, "September 11, 2001: The Mental Health Crisis That Wasn't." Well-written, well-informed public affairs argumentation. Ray Olson
Copyright © American Library Association. All rights reserved

Here's another review of the book mentioned below,

In their new book One Nation Under Therapy, Christina Hoff-Summers and Sally Satel explore and describe the transcendence of therapism over common sense and reason.

Years ago I was enrolled in a psychology class in which I happened to be the only male present. On the first day, there were about thirty students arrayed at desks around a blackboard. The professor came in and introduced herself. Then she requested that each student say their name while “telling the class some details about yourself.” When the procession reached me I said my name…and nothing else. The professor eyed me carefully. She then asked, “Won’t you tell us something about yourself?”
“No,” I answered. “I don’t get into all that stuff.”

Such expectations of personalization and sharing are now sadly the norm in primary, secondary, and higher education classrooms across the country. Requests to emote come from one’s peers and associates and are more rule than exception. Reticence in meetings or events is viewed with suspicion. The value of being A Quiet Man may well have died with John Wayne.

Our nation is under the thrall of a movement that exerts its loathsome and self-righteous influence upon us whenever we tug at a dog’s leash or tell somebody that they should “toughen up.” The name of this movement and belief system is therapism and its takeover of America has displaced traditional values like resilience, drive, pride, and honor.

Dr. Christina Hoff-Sommers, author of the exquisite, Who Stole Feminism?: How Women Have Betrayed Women, and the equally superb, The War Against Boys: How Misguided Feminism Is Harming Our Young Men, now addresses this subject in a new book co-authored by Dr. Sally Satel (PC MD: How Political Correctness Is Corrupting Medicine), which is called One Nation Under Therapy: How the Helping Culture is Eroding Self-Reliance. It explores and describes the transcendence of therapism over common sense and reason. The text is concise and brisk and, once finished, the reader will be fully informed of the inner-workings of the therapeutic culture and understand how it came about in the first place.

For this reviewer, the most intriguing sections of the book concern our public schools which have become, in many ways, a loco therapistis for the country’s children. To summarize the current situation, our primary and secondary institutions are presently expected to provide services which they are in no way qualified to offer. It is now believed by many professionals that bestowing students with a good education alone is not fulfilling our mission. They regard it as essential that we prepare pupils for every facet of life. The line between teacher and social worker is becoming increasingly blurred.

The school as one stop well-being center is now accepted by many an educator. Obsessing about feelings and processing them is the height of chic. The posture of care makes others regard you as devoted, empathic and vested. Should one appear otherwise he will look like a bat-wielding Neanderthal. Exploring moods and student vicissitudes is cutting edge. It’s right up there with using words like “modality” and “rubric.” Should a teacher desire alienation, they would be advised to bring a copy of Exploding the Self-Esteem Myth into their building’s faculty lounge and begin quoting from its pages extemporaneously.

Not only is the idea of teacher as emotional facilitator a complete waste of time and energy, it is also invasive and deters children from absorbing the learning that is their due during instructional time. Sommers and Satel note the futility that is emotion over education:

School officials should be leery of “feelings” exercises, and curricula that demand that students bare their souls. Indeed, they should consider dispensing with them altogether…The purpose of education is not to find yourself, but to lose yourself.

Thousands of years of history might be a good subject to lose oneself in, and the act of trying would help students realize just how much grandeur occurred before our births. However, even if a child wanted to immerse themselves in the study of past civilizations, One Nation Under Therapy showcases the fact that mambi-pambi censorship of textbooks by language police has left learning materials boiled of interest and flavor. Anything that reveals the actual nature of humans has been de-boned. Much of the curriculum is gloss and politically correct circumstance. That therapism is the inherent enemy of education is a certainty. No serious scholarship can emerge from a decade or three of self-obsession.

By practicing reticence and reserve in regards to their feelings and thoughts it seems that many of our ancestors lived unfilled lives. Yet, One Nation Under Therapy illustrates that the endless processing of feelings makes for pessimistic and dispirited obsessions -- and little else. Through constant discussion, irritation can morph into rage. The evidence suggests that inhibition and repression can be more adaptive responses to grief and stress than blabbing your feelings to every passerby.

How did such toxic views and practices arise? Sommers and Satel, in the chapter “Esteem Thyself,” point in the direction of humanistic psychology and the works of Abraham Maslow and Carl Rogers. With the latter, his insistence that the quintessential question of life was, “Am I living in a way which is deeply satisfying to me, and which truly expresses me?” indicates just how shallow and narcissistic he desired his patients to be. On the Left they might refer to such a solid link to therapism as “a root cause.” On the Right we might dismiss it with the commandment of “Get Over Thyself.” Rogers saw schools as “personal growth centers” with nonjudgmentalism as their core requirement. As for Maslow, his theories were so vague and unfalsifiable that they left themselves open for misrepresentation and manipulation by thugs like Abbie Hoffman and Charles Dederich. Humanistic theory bares as close a resemblance to the truth as the fantasist political works of Noam Chomsky.

Therapism has turned criminal defense into one long chorus of “what’s your excuse?” Offenders blame internal disorders and syndromes for their every violation. They wholly expect that jurors will understand the way in which their brains became “hijacked” by impaired cortex functioning or their addiction to drugs. The therapeutic culture has made every citizen a potential victim and at no time was this more true than on 9/11, when trauma specialists and grief counselors descended upon New York City like reporters covering the Chandra Levy case. They predicted a mental health disaster and that large segments of the Big Apple (according to one source, 1 in 4 individuals) would develop psychological disturbance due to the towers falling. Happily for all concerned, their predictions were totally false. Yes, we now know that there really is life and recovery without the mandatory babbling of psychologists and social workers.

We live in days when the saying “Be Strong” is equated with insensitivity and that appeals to bravery are an embarrassment to those who make them. There is only one thing that must be done; all of us must be as judgmental as possible. We should never excuse the immoral behavior surrounding us. Rather than minimize and rationalize pathological acts on the part of the narcissistic, violent, or drug-addicted, our nation must embrace personal responsibility without qualifications. We should follow the advice that Don Imus gives the sick children on his ranch, its time to “Cowboy Up.”

Brent,

Interesting book. However, it seems to suffer from a weakness in its understanding of the situation in modern public education.

Education is run by three groups: 1. Politicians 2. College professors 3. School administrators...who are all too frequently people who tried teaching and found that they weren't very good at it. Most of them haven't actually taught anything to a kid in years. They spend their time involved with staffing issues, going to meetings where other administrators explain how they must comply with the latest insane idea that has been enacted into law by the politicians, and doing paperwork required by the bazillions of regulations that they must know and follow.

Education is influenced by textbook publishers, who get their guidence from "experts" that are mainly college professors and school administrators.

Education is "done" by teachers, who haven't got time to enact all the nutsy psychological practices recommended by the college professors and written into the teaching suggestions of the Teacher's Guides. With today's demands for "accountability" very little time is wasted on that sort of thing.

They use words like "Rubric" because they mean something. A rubric is a standard by which one evaluates student work. Your teachers have all used one, whatever they called it, when they evaluated your work. If they didn't, they were just winging it when they graded your work, and that isn't good.

A "modality" is a method by which a person learns. Different kids tend to have different dominant learning modalities so good teaching needs to utilize two or more. The most common are aural and visual.

Last night I gave a talk in my Cosmology class. I used a powerpoint projector, so the others both heard what I had to say, and saw pictures, graphs and charts that supplied additional information and reiterated much of what I was saying. I addressed the aural and visual modalities.

Teachers, like any other profession, have a technical jargon that relates to their field. They always have, and they probably won't give it up any time soon. I, however, promise to do so just as soon as chiropracters drop the word "subluxation" from theirs. ;)

Anyway, if you really want to know what goes on at your kid's school, go there and observe, then make appointments with his/her teachers and talk to them. People who write books like this one are really telling you about the wierd ideas of some folks who get public notice.

There are people who really do propose that the public schools become the point of contact for innumberable social services. The school districts have neither the time, the money, nor the personell resources to make it happen, so they just pay lip service to the idea and go on trying to teach.

Thomas Maddux
(who has been there)

: Tom Maddux May 27, 2005, 07:59:34 PM

Teachers, like any other profession, have a technical jargon that relates to their field. They always have, and they probably won't give it up any time soon. I, however, promise to do so just as soon as chiropracters drop the word "subluxation" from theirs.

Anyway, if you really want to know what goes on at your kid's school, go there and observe, then make appointments with his/her teachers and talk to them. People who write books like this one are really telling you about the wierd ideas of some folks who get public notice.

There are people who really do propose that the public schools become the point of contact for innumberable social services. The school districts have neither the time, the money, nor the personell resources to make it happen, so they just pay lip service to the idea and go on trying to teach.

Thomas Maddux
(who has been there)

Great to have you back, Tom.

I have just ordered the book, haven't read it yet. I'll read it, and perhaps say something later.

RE: subluxation's and trade/technical jargon....I gave up the word subluxation about eight years ago. I had plenty of reasons for doing this. Aural and visual modalities mean Show and Tell, right?

As for "Rubric," doesn't that mean the same as "grading" papers and scoring tests?

I know I have mentioned it elsewhere, many times, but we are quite involved with our kid's schools. Been there, watched, talked, listened, asked questions. Some of the stuff that goes on is madness, and the teachers all know it. (It's not their idea, as you pointed out)

Tonite, I'm playing in a poker tournament with about 30 teachers. We went to our oldest's football coache's birthday party last Saturday. About 50 teacher's there, many of whom we know well. I've had long discussions with them about many things, so while I totally agree with your suggestion to aquire some firsthand info, I want you to be aware that I have done so, in spades.

Here's just a few of the things that are happening a mile or two down the road, at our schools:

1.)no touching, no rough play, no acting like boys.
2.)Classes that teach about sexual harrassment....and classes that teach kids how to have "safe" sex. (in the highschool)
3.)Classes across the board where if a student does all the homework incorrectly, and fails every test, they still get a passing grade...BUT if a student does half the homework correctly, and get's A's on every test...they get a failing grade.
4.)Strong appeals to get kids involved with the school counselor, on meds, and enrolled as ADHD, Dyslexic, etc. This gives more money to the school. (most of the latter is at college.)

Brent

: Brent T May 28, 2005, 12:54:49 AM

No,

Aural and visual modalities does not mean "show and tell" at all.

It means that different individuals have different ways of learning, or more specifically, different ways of taking in information.

Legitimate research has established this. When two or more modalities are employed in instruction the everyone's learning curve goes up. Long term and short term memory of the material is improved.

That is why chiropractic textbooks have illustrations.

And again, no,

"Rubric" does not mean the same thing as grading papers or scoring tests.

A rubric is a standard to which something is compared. A rubric is involved in every chiropractic examination. The current condition of the spine is compared to the ideal condition of the spine, and corrective measures are prescribed.

If one does not have a rubric, one cannot grade tests or score papers objectively. If 2 plus 2 is not 4, some subjective standard must be used. "I like Johnny, so he gets an A". "Joe is a pain in the neck, so he gets a D."

You can "grade" papers just fine without a rubric. The rubric makes it objective.

The most common use of the term is in grading writing assignments. It is more difficult to make a rubric for essays than for, say, math. But it is necessary if you wish to have an objective standard in order to evaluate student work.

As to the wierd ideas that the modern educational "experts" have....

That is why schoolboards are local. The teacher's unions tend to get their candidates elected.....and they are usually pretty far left in their views.

unless concerned citizens care enough to organize, run for the board positions, and take the local schools back from the leftist nuts.

BTW....when are you going to run?

Thomas Maddux

AssemblyBoard

General Discussion => Any and All Topics => : Eulaha L. Long April 13, 2005, 08:46:48 AM