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Before I became a Christian I used illegal drugs, smoked ciggarettes (a pack+ a day) drank liquor and was very irresponsible when it came to school, work, home. But after I became a Christian these things changed dramatically. Many people would comment and testify to the change that took place in my life. These results had a tremendous optomistic effect upon my psyche. The future seemed limitless. I could become anything I (God) wanted, acomplish anything I (God) wanted me to do. Yet as experience is apt to show us I learned that things were not so easy. Life was not a simple as I thought. I couldn't just say a prayer and it was all taken care of. Issues became evident in my life that seem to be impossible to overcome. One obvious realization was that I could't do anything simply based on faith. Living among other christians it was easy to see that other Christians had their impossible issues also. Some peoples issues I found to be embedded inside their own selves, what I mean by this is that a person may have a very quirky, rude personality.   Yet there was little hope that this person would ever change simply because it was the person themselves! (Does this make sense?) One day I can remember very clearly I overheard a conversation between a daughter and her mother. The daughter was having a problem with her teacher at Cornerstone. The mother encouraged her to "ask God to show her (the teacher) her need to change!. The child's response was all to real. "But it would take the Lord her whole life to show her!" Which seems to confirm my suspicions. Although we can keep ouselves from doing certain things, like drugs etc...We can put the Minitor inside a maze thus keeping him under a certain amount of control yet I don't think we can ever get over our issues!  I can put a nice suit on, get an education yet inside I am still embeded with issues! I think human nature is what it is! What do you think?

David, I don't know if this is the right thread for this but I wanted to add...If you were a Tibetian Monk, and you came here with the common ground of the assembly that's ok. But it seems you use the unsaved, no longer a believer thing as a shock factor, and your sooo worried you were innocently pulled into an offensive post session. Yet you really don't give a D@#%, if you stumble that same person, who is so weak with your un-belief...What's really going on? Cause your contradicting yourself!  Summer

I'm just talking about human nature. I didn't think my post would stumble anyone out of their faith. Many Christians do not believe that perfection can be achieved in this life. Do you?  I don't. I think it is unrealistic to believe others can really change!  I hope this doesn't offend you? My point was that we should accept people despite their faults.  My ex-fiance' is on disability. It ruined our relationship. I found out that she couldn't just change when I spelled everything out so clearly, she (we all) has issues that are beyond are ability to just seperate apart from ourselves. I've stopped trying to change her and have learned to just accept her for who she is. Yes she is working the system but she is doing the best she can! 

If you do not mind my asking David, what were the circumstances of your becoming a Christian?
I am genuinely interested and not trying to pry or be presumptuous...

I was saved when I was about seven.
My mother told me that she would soon be gone and I would be alone in the world.
I will never forget the absolute terror that over-took my soul and the incredible sense of loneliness at the prospect of loosing her. I know it was fear, but God used it in a remarkable way.

The verse came to mind : "I will never leave Thee nor forsake Thee"

I had heard the gospel many times before. I gave my heart to Christ that night.
There have been periods of sad wandering without a doubt, but I have never ever doubted the truth of that awesome promise...



I am interested in how you reconcile this with the fact that you yourself apparently changed quite a bit after" becoming a Christian"?

Verne

David, You know this..think romans 8:3 "What the Law could'nt do," etc...you were under the law in the assm, following the laws of Assm. We all have weak areas being human." But we shall all be changed in a moment in a twinkling of an eye"> Its Grace right now, you have all the answers. Its those rivers of living water, the washing of the word, the kingdom is with-in you. Think Christ himself, yes he can change anyone, we still have some quirky traits though. Don't ya want to walk on those streets of gold? Summer. p.s. I'm going on a long break!

Vern,
       I followed up my statement with the Minitor illustration. See greek mythology. The minitor was a beast that couldn't be defeated but controled! I was saved when I was 16. It did save me!  But I came to a point where I could no longer believe.  Belief can do wonders for a person. recently I watched a program on 6o minutes where a group of primitive people were saved because they believed that the "Spirit god" of the ocean was  angry and wanted to swallow them.  They saw the receiding waters and new it was time to run for the hills! You and I know there is no spirit god but their belief saved them. This is how I view my salvation. It worked for a while but as the song goes, "There more you know the less you believe" I understand you stillbelieve there is no need for you to defend your faith to me. I accept you. It's o.k. and I reserve the right to be wrong. Summer I hope you aren't offended. Please don't leave because of me.

I was interested in asking becasue I believe salavation is a free gift, and it is irrevocable.
If you confessed Jesus Christ as Lord, and at some point believed in your heart that God raised Him ffom the dead, then God saved you in accordance with His promise, regardless of your present feelings.
I have no idea how to reconcile the faithfulness of God with securing the destiny of those He really saves, with a position that calls His very existence into question. Just trying to  understand...
Verne

p.s The minotaur was quite an interesting creature. I will read the post again and see if I can make the connection.
It is possible for the Christian to be transformed, deep-seated weaknesses and tendencies notwithstanding. I believe holiness involves more that keeping our worse inclinations at bay...

funny I found different spelling for the minotaur. I learned about the illustration by reading Joseph Campbell. ( I have read different versions about the half man half bull, In one story he was defeated!)
He is the problem of King Mines?  The same guy who messed with Icarus and father.

the Minotaur guarded the maze under the palace of Knossos, on Crete.  King Minos was one of the more famous kings there.  I've been there.  It's the oldest European civilization.

If I'm not mistaken, Perseus defeated the minotaur.  Daedelus and Icarus were prisoners of Minos, and they were the ones who made the wings, but Alas, Icarus flew too near the sun....

Greek myths are awesome.

Brent

There is something critically important about the issues that you are raising, and that is how much more important it is to live the gospel than to just preach it.
I am not suggesting that the failure of Christians to adorn the doctrine in any way lessens the truth of the gospel. The interesting thing is that we are the only ones who know whether we have really changed or not...I think this is a good reason to examine ourselves as the Bible admonishes...
Verne

I have changed since becoming a Christian.  No doubt about it. 

I also am nowhere near perfect, and have many of the same personality traits that i had prior to salvation.  There are some differences:

I don't practice the works of the flesh.  Am I perfect in every aspect of this?  No, but there I some I just don't ever do, others I rarely even think about, and only one or two that I have a problem with from time to time.  Prior to becoming a Christian, it was different.

I don't blab on about the bible as much as I used to, and I don't think every other christian is untaught and a baby brother.  That's change.

I will still be a person who needs grace, until I die.  Grace, because I'm not righteous.

David, No I'm not leaving because of you. I have other things to work on right now. It is typical for everyone to want to convert you, you know you were in leadership. You some good topics and really are one of the nicest people here at least your HONEST! I've had to critically look at my beliefs, being raised Hell-Fire and brimstone Baptist, so we all have things we need to Rise Above. Sometimes this place is very draining, but I'm sure you know that.   Summer.

This was indeed the single most obvious fact, that convinced me of my own salvation - some changes genuinely surprised me...
Verne

I think it was Daedelus who built the maze??  Minos couldn't defeat him so he just put him in the maze. I think it illustrates how we can control our addictions through structure.  Organizations such as A.A. etc...  but you are right a hero did come and defeat him! A forshadow of Christ??

Verne, I meant to say your conversion story at age 7 is very precious. Thank-You for sharing. Summer.

O.K. I think I get it. You are saying that the way in which you changed was not an essential one, and that all you did was manage to bring the raging beast under some semblance of control?
You are also implying that this is probably true for others as well.
Furthermore, just because a belief produces a desirable effect does not in and of itself attest to the validity of such a belief. Fair enough.
I have to say that your  profession of faith did appear to have a major impact. Many otherwise strong  and decisive folk try without success to give uo vices of one sort or another.
We are starting to touch a very interesting area of Biblical psychology here and so I want to pose this question.
Assuming the evidence of your own life, and what you observe in others suggest that the beast is only capable of being tamed and not transformed, then it stands to reason, that if in your own experience or what you observe of the experience of others, transformation did indeed occur,(to be judged by any standard you chose) it seems that you would have to revise your theory.
Verne

Vern, I don't understand what you are asking me?  I guess I can say it like this I don't believe we can take out the evil dark side that is in us all. It will always be there!  It is who we are! Which reminds me The new Star Wars is coming out!!! So I guess I am toying with the idea that some we should just let some sleeping dogs lie?  Some people (Like my ex cannot change, even if she wanted to be someone different she can't, so I need to just accept her for who she is.) Now on the other hand if I think one of my students can do a better job on their homework I am going to push them. But I have learned to not push some kids!  I don't know if what I am saying is making any sense. O.K. time to go to bed!!!

Can anyone really ever get beyond "their issues?"

There's a difference between having issues and wallowing in them.
Till the day we die, we will be facing some issue or another.  But like a babe who grows into a toddler and then a kid, teen and then a mature adult, there ought to be continual growth and progress with a number of snags along the way.

God bless,
Marcia

Just whether or not you believe the old adage - the exception proves the rule.

If you met someone, who in your opinion had undergone undeniable transformation, defeating the beast as it were, or better yet, if something like this were to happen in your own life, despite your doubts, what then?
It happens to be my opinon, that we as Christians do not truly know dispair, until we actually make a serious and determined attempt to live a holy life. Most of us are quite content with spiritual mediocrity.
It is the recognition, of the absolute futility of any effort we can bring to our own transformation, that propels us into a violent  pursuit of God, out of sheer necessity!, that He might accomplish what we clearly cannot!
I suspect that you are in a better place than you think my friend...
Verne

p.s. another way of saying the above is that no one, and I mean no one, gets to Romans 8, without going through Romans 7...

   Not to change the subject but, Have you ever noticed some people who go through life completely oblivious of their issues?  Or completely comfortable in their dysfunctional life?  I have a theory that if we all lived in a world that totally conformed to our dysfunctions then we would all be in heaven. Many people are in this situation. I myself am very happy to have a wife who fits pretty well along with my issues. Had I married my ex-fiance' I would have spent my life learning how to be patient, kind, careing, selfless ....etc

David,

I am very intrigued by this subject and am very thankful you brought this up.  In fact, in dwelling on this subject the past few weeks, I read this verse in Ecclesiastes 8:20 "Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins."  I would love to not feel guilty over sins, even after confession.  SIN=SELF-CONDEMNATION.  Over, not be depressed, give in to certain indulges, etc.  I could literally go on typing for days.  The best advice, Christian or not, is "don't beat yourself up" or "don't worry about it".  To vent a little, that advice is WORSE THAN PURE COWPOOP!  IT'S ABSOLUTELY WORTHLESS.  Yeah, sure, I'll just wake up tomorrow, pray to God and tell him to make me not worry and for feel guilty. Been there, done that, still do, hasn't worked thus far. 

I almost tempted to buy into your philosophy of conforming to our disfunctions.  This may more be along the lines of giving into an indulgence, but I'll give the example anyway.  I have a Christian friend who constantly bemoans about two different struggles.  Pornography and Anger.  He seems to lease out at people when he's driving behind the road, goes off on people for no apparent reason, etc.  He tries to refrain from it, but it ends up giving in.   With Pornography, he usually goes to various Webster and one thing leads to another.  He'll give it up for a couple of days, but then gives place to it, eventually.  He has talked to/counseled with numerous Pastors, Christian leaders, prayed, claimed certain Bible verses, read several Christian books, but to no avail.  His life can be described enjoying these activities for a short while, then feeling guilty for days, if not weeks, once the guilt subsides, the vicious cycle starts all over again. 

Ironically, I have another friend, formerly Assembly member, now self-proclaimed Atheists, who use to have a similiar struggle with pornography.  Now, he claims he feels no guilt when it comes to pornography, but rather embraces it, as well as other things not necessarily related to it.  He does what he does, guilt free. 

Although I don't struggle with these particular activities, per say, there are other struggles/issues similiar to this in which I go through the same vicious cycle.  It doesn't help the matter when both my buddy and I are married.  Then our struggles are even more compounded. I have given what I think is sound Christian advice to my buddy thus far.  But, I am almost tempted to tell him instead of fighting your sin, try embracing it.  For instance, maybe channel your anger into something positive.  I don't know what, of hand, that would be, but don't be afraid to be stern, as long as your are clear and direct when speaking.  In my brief working life, some of the most effective bosses I have had are very anger, yet very direct.  For Pornography, I know most Christians would vilify me for this, but why not have a situation where, on special occasions, you and your wife watch pornography together.  Not every time you make love, but on special occasions, and keep it exclusively between you and her.  Why struggle, why feel guilty, but rather why not come to a healthy compromise?  Just thinking out loud. 

I know for myself, a lot of what I don't do, or what I do, from a Christian perspective, is because of fear and guilt.  I simply can't remove these from the equation. 

Thanks for the advice! I'll bring it up with Pam tonight! >:D >:D >:D

Self-denial, when enjoined upon others but divorced from God's revealed wlll is dangerous business.
It is an age-old heresy, that self-denial in and of itself has any intrinsic value.
Part of the human condition is a built in instinct for survival and self-interest.
This is entirely normal and right.
In the assemblies folk were taught to nullify this natural condition and George and his henchmen would cleverly camouflage their art in manipulation by invoking some lying and coercive argument like "do you want what God wants?"
His blatantly taking God's name in vain is far more serious that his sexual indiscretions in my opinion.

If you do not act in your own best interests lets face it folks, you are plain stupid.
The Christian believes that sin has impaired this faculty and left to his own devices, he tends to make self-destructive choices. The only reason for relinquishing one's will to another is an absolute conviction that that individual is more able to act in my best interests than I am myself able to do.
It then becomes obvious what a horror it is that those who insist that others submit their will to them. are  de facto doing - they are really taking the place of God.
The fact that one's own inclination may differ from what God intends is not in and of itself sinful.
Who is prepared to argue that Christ sinned when he requested that if it were possible that the proffered cup pass from Him?
Talking about self-danial, going the way of the cross and all the incarnatons of this kind of thinking when divorced from a clear statement that it occurs only to embrace God's will lead others down a path of abject misery and failure.
If you do not understand that any denial of self enjoined on you, is indeed by the will of God to result in your best interests, it is noting but a manupulative, coercive and totally useless doctrine.

This is a great question. I am frankly humbled by it and I will tell you why.
We both know I am not perfect, but I do know one thing.
God is able to deliver. I know it first hand.
I do not think it is possible to truly share effectively spiritual  truths that one has not learned and applied personally.
One caveat. He does not work in quite the same way in every person and the way he leads in my case my be different from the way he does in some other Christian.
The priciples are consistent though. Let me think a bit about how I want to say this and I will first talk about principle then give my personal view on how one might  put it into practice.
Verne

I am not sure if I am following this but I will say yes!  To give place to the flesh (animal nature) all the time, without considering the consequences would be a quick road to self destruction. However it may not always be wrong for every person. In every Harry potter book Professor Dumbledor says "Do not go into the forbidden Forest!" Yet in every Harry Potter book Harry ends up going in!!!  He is not suppose to and other students like Nevil longbottom would no doubt "suffer a terrible death." Yet Harry must go that way if he is going to find the answers he is looking for!  Now when it comes to addictions I think I have found different ways to avoid them through communicating with other people! Through art, books, my wife etc..Does this make any sense????

Do be patient as I try and put in intelligible words, some of the thougts that are swimming in my head.
I mentioned before how important it is to recognize the progress of the redemptive work in the believer, namely that God dealt with sin's penalty past, He deals with sin's power presently, and will deal with sin's very presence prospectively, this last requiring a dramatic change of venue in the form of literally new bodies.


Sin in our lives will confound us I believe only if we fail to see the various aspects of the truth of the remarkable work of salvation achieved for us in Christ.


There is a truth that sits:

 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:


There is a truth that stands:

Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

There is a truth that wallks:

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The first has to do with our position, the second to do with our perception, the third with our performance.

If we are unclear about one and two, the third will forever elude us.
I trust by the grace of God that one and two are settled.
Now I need to really spend some time thinking...I feel entirely inadequate...
Verne

Verne, This is Wonderful! Please consider writing a book.  Summer.

P.S. If this goes to book-form one day please leave in the travail and angst, it adds to the readability and gives it that cliffhanger edge. Thanks.

You should not expect to find great spiritual enlightenment in a Harry Potter book -- at least not from the Holy Spirit.  (Maybe it should be called spiritual endarkenment instead.)

Here is an interesting thing to consider.  Technically, the serpent in the garden didn't lie to Eve.  He simply took advantage of Eve's misunderstanding and led her to believe that his words meant something other than what he actually said.  She believed that she would die if she touched the fruit, which was not true.  So when the serpent said that she would not surely die, that was true, provided she didn't go beyond touching the fruit to actually eating it.  As the serpent intended, she misunderstood by thinking that she might get away with eating it.  The sin was in going beyond an objective interaction with the fruit to subjectively experiencing it.  Objective knowledge means simply believing God when he says that something isn't good for us.  Subjective knowledge means that we learn the same thing by painful experience.

Romans 8:1-2 (translated from Russian)
And so there is now no condemnation to those who in Christ Jesus live not according to (the) flesh, but according to (the) spirit, because (the) law of (the) spirit of life in Christ Jesus has freed me from (the) law of sin and of death.

Romans 8:1-2 (Darby)
[There is] then now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus.  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and of death.

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Romans 8:32
He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

An interesting perspective Steve. I would take this even one step further. Eve had lost this contest even before she took the apple. I know this sounds a bit radical but think about it.
You are right that the Serpent beguiled, that is deceived her. Remember the Biblical definition of deception is that it occurs only when someone has previously rejected revealed truth.
Is it possible that Eve sinned even before she took the apple in that she doubted what God had clearly told her and accepted the proposition of the Serpent?
This gives great insight into into the nature of sin.


Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

I started thinking about this after Sondra mentioned that Adam was created with a sin nature. I still do not quite agree with that but as I thought about what Eve did, I realised that Sondra had a very good point.
Perhaps in a techincal way, she did not sin until she actually took a bite, but once she doubted
God (would that be "sin"??!!) she was ripe, so to speak, for the picking...
Verne

This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

So you say that you are tired of being dominated by the works of the flesh?
Are you really?
You say it is time to  get serious and live life in a manner befitting a child of the King?
That is good, for it is what God wants. It is His desired will and you cannot possibly be more enthusiastic about this than He is.

Have you told Him?

Start there.

More later...
Verne

Yeah. I'd like a copy, too. :)

Hey, let's all start following Verne, now. Brents hasn't posted for a couple days and we need someone who is dependable (and not plagued with OCD).  ;)


 

I hope this does not distract/detract from the ongoing discussion which I am enjoying.

Re. support groups that 'support and encourage', and controlled environments where family/church members do not 'judge' you, how does this individual react to adverse circumstances that arise outside his controlled environment?  If he steps outside his door and some obnoxious evangelical is saying, "Herod you have sinned because you have your brother's wife", does he fly off the handle, throw the preacher in jail and cut off his head, regardless if the preacher was right or not.

This is related to the discussion on the welfare thread.  Support groups/controlled environments that only 'support and encourage' do not help the person to deal with real life and criticism objectively.

Marcia

O.K. Harry is a little juvenile, how about Odysseus?  He makes some very bad choices but comes out the other end a better person. I am no expert on the subject of sanctification yet I think there is a lot of psychosis in religious circles. Because of the attitude that we should just be able to get over our issues by faith. Somethings are not that simple. Particularly when the things we want to disappear are really ourselves. "You there! Stop behaving like you!"  It is the quickest way to despair!

No question about it. It is so easy to parrot all kinds of wonderful truths about what others need to do without having put those truths to the test in one's own life. We know quite a lot. We do quite a little. That is my own problem frankly.
Dispair only results from misplaced hope, which leads to disappointed expectations. Just following a program won't do it. We need a Person.
Verne

Good Morning all,

I thought about David's statement above and decided to comment.  
First of all, I am a huge fan of Harry Potter-----not that it matters much in this conversation.
Is there psychosis in religious circles?  I suppose so, because there are people there.  I'm not sure if there are a greater number of psycho's in one religion or another...but if I was going to venture a guess, I'd say that the pagan oriented religions have more freaks.  This is just from my own  personal observations, because here in SLO, we have plenty of lesbian/wiccan/goddess worshipers.  Also, JW's seem to all be depressed, while Mormons are really nice people, in my experience.

Next, the ONLY way anyone person I am aware of, including myself, as gotten over an issue is by faith.  I've never seen medication work for an alchoholic, but I have seen AA work.  I know people who were formerly felons, who are now pastors.  I think there are hundreds of thousands of people who were formerly promiscuous, drunkards, dope smokers, democrats, etc.....all of whom changed rapidly due to faith.

When a person wants "themself" to dissappear, they have a serious problem.  If God wanted us to be gone, why would He save us?  The fact is that our sin was destroying us, and unless He intervened our entire being would have been forever seperated from God.  We would have dissappeared completely.  So I look at the Christian faith, not as being one that lets people stop being themselves, but one that liberates people to be the unique, gifted, interesting people they are.  

I think that when David says, "You there!  Stop behaving like you," it implied that "you" is attempting to do things they really don't want to do.  Let's say my passion in life is painting.  Painting gives me pleasure, it's what I want to do for a living, it's all I think about...it's me.  Now, let's say that I get married to a person who decides that it's a waste of time for me to paint, and that I should be working hard as a network administrator to earn money instead.  I hate my job.  Everyday I think about painting, and art, and I feel like my life is slipping away, like I am trapped, etc.  I read that a Christian is supposed to provide for his family, so I attempt to change.  I try not to think about painting, but I can't help it.....I feel guilty.  I start to lapse, and begin painting on my lunch hour, even sneaking a few brush strokes in on weekends when my wife is away....hopefully you get the picture.

This person will never overcome this issue, ever.  He is attempting to deny and suppress the very person he is, and not only will that make him miserable, it isn't what God wants in the first place.

On the contrary, this person should take a bold step of faith and make the decision to begin painting...maybe part time at first.  

That's the problem with why so many people seem to fail when it comes to overcoming issues.  The fact is they attempt to "overcome" something that they enjoy, and that they really want to do.  In the case of sin, they enjoy the sin.

How come I don't enjoy being drunk?  Why do I have no desire at all to be under the influence of Marijuana or Cocaine?  I used to really like these things, now I am repulsed.  God changed me, that's why.

We are free in Christ.  All things are ours.  All things are lawful, but not all things edify.  The Holy Spirit convicts of sin and righteousness.  I am convinced that is why I have no desire for many of the former things.

Brent

Verne, I hope I'm not to far off trac here. (I know nothing about Harry.P.) But I think what your driving at is mis-placed self-denial. For instance you get saved, you've found the Pearl of great price (Christ) so now you've sold all to but this pearl, sold-out for the Lord, all the self-denial is worth it for the Good-News of God. Well what happens is someone like a pharisee (the Assm for instance) comes along and ladens you with all sorts of rules and bondage, this is now, not so good news, and it gets worse, the more you do the more you fall short so eventually you run from it. The white-washed walls of hypocrisy kill the joy of the Lord. The Lord had never asked you to do certain things. I really love the Lord rebuking the pharisees and then the Lawyer steps in and says Master your offending us too, and he says Woe to you Lawyers. I could be way off here, but the Lord is the model to follow, not all these men who fall short. Summer. (we are changed from Glory to Glory...IICor3, and in I John 3 it does'nt yet appear, but we shall be like Him, in Rom 8 predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son)

Brent, I was thinking more along the line "stop" doing what comes natural. Like lust!  Now I am not advocating a "On The Road" lifestyle of the 60's! Ruth I bet you know some good stories! This I have learned is self destruction, (At least for me it is.) But as you have alluded to we should identify our hearts desire and nurture it in a healthy way. It's different for each person and it is a maturing process we all go through. This thread started out with a different kind of issue in mind.  My ex-fiance is a Born Again Christian who is on disability. I and others (Christians also) believe that she is "working the system"  My ex and I went over and over this. We went into counseling!  She never really was able to face the issue. I could not get her to see that she needed to "grow up" We finally broke it off. Now as I have stated before I don't think my ex could ever really change. Her disablity was psychological, physical, mental, spiritual and on and on. She and it were/are one! It is who she is!  It is unreasonable to think she could just 'believe" If you understood how she was raised you might understand. He mother had her because of an affair with a marride man. Her father never owned her as his daughter. She learned early on that to survive she had to do certain things, behave in a certain way. I really don't think people who are born with and are given much better can understand her. She is the way she is!  She will live her whole life this way. Today I just accept and love her for who she is!  Does this make sense? I would add, that we all have issues!  You, I and everyone have issues that will follow us to the grave!  Why not just accept the fact and learn to live with them!

Yes, it makes perfect sense.  Your ex-fiance is doing what she wants to do.  It may or may not make her happy, but it is better than the alternative....change.  She can't change because she doesnt' want to.  It's just that simple.

With regard to lust.  It's a normal human emotion that has been twisted by the devil and our sin nature.  Young men have a strong sex drive (older ones can too or course) and there is nothing wrong with this. 

I got married at age 23, as you will recall.  Lots of single brothers, were pretty lonely on those bunk beds, but I was sharing a bed with a lovely woman.  Lust was a good thing.  No problem at all. 

I have zero problem with pornography.  I  don't need it, and don't use it.   I don't own any either. 

I do know what it's like to burn with passion and lust, and in that case I recommend that people do what I did...get married.  I also recommend that they exercise self-denial until they are married.  Then they can be happy.

However, if a person just wants instant gratification, they are going to have a problem with lust, and probably pornography.  The more they do this the less likely they are to have a good relationship....and the more likely they are to be impotent or sexually dysfuntional.

They won't be able to change, because they enjoy what they are doing.  Sadly, they become slaves to sin, even when they don't have to be.

So, I know plenty of people who have decisively dealth with issues, big issues.  I also know plenty of people who have dabbled with silly books and support groups and never seem to get anywhere.  The only reason we habitually sin is because we enjoy it.

The only way we can overcome it is by realizing that there is now no condemnation in Christ.  Tired of sin?  Don't walk after the flesh.  You have the power to stop.

There is much more to say about this, but generally I have found that the simple approach is the best.  If you want to learn to ski, you must accept the fact that you will fall down many times....but you stick with it because it's something you want to do.  Seems no different than alchohol or lust.

Brent

David and others, forgive me if I was unclear.  Unfortunately, my mind can be convoluted at times.  I work two jobs and only come on here during my lunch break.  Often, it's just random thoughts when I post as my mind is going a hundred miles hour, trying to enjoy my break, yet contemplating the remainder tasks for the day.

In hindsight, I guess I shouldn't have lumped those two issues (anger and pornography) together.  Anger is more an outburst of emotion and I think it fits the mold of what David is alluding to.  The later is an addiction, which is something separate.  With or without Christ, I believe we can overcome addictions. Albeit, easier with Christ.  However, I still don't believe my friend will overcome either.  Nonetheless, I still love him to death.

Speaking of the Tree of K & E, why did God have to put it there in the first place?  I heard many reasons why, but none seem to satisfy. 

BAT, quick question for you.  What if someone’s passion is an occupational bartender, or gulp, dealing drugs.  Yes, a stretch, but I think you know what I am getting at.  On a side note, two of my passions are watching sports and weightlifting.  In the assembly, I thought both were taboo and sinful.  Ironically, I was involved in the Assembly from ‘94-‘00.  For a homegrown Nebraska boy who is a die-hard Cornhusker, this was extremely difficult.

That's all for now..I greatly appreciate everyone's input.

I have no problem with being a bartender.  I went out to dinner on Saturday night, and Suzie had a glass of Zinfandel, while both of us had an after dinner liquour.  A bartender poured them for us, and we thought it was worth paying for. 

As far as drug dealing, that brings up an interesting discussion, but let me put it like this.  Dealing drugs isn't fun, and it is not something that people aspire to.  They do it for two reasons, which are often related: Money and addiction.

Nevertheless, if someone's passion is for criminal activity, they probably aren't going to change, regardless of how much time spent in the Department of Corrections hospitality program. 

Your being told that weights were sinful, along with sports is a perfect example of why "denying self" creates crazy people.  You were attempting to put to death what didn't need to die, and all it did was make you sad and empty. 

Here's another example:  We know a woman who has all sorts of issues.  Yes, she is on welfare now.  She goes to woman's retreats and "hears God speak,"  and she goes forward to pray with people, or be prayed for all the time.  She keeps getting worse, but is able to spout more God-talk per minute than most people, except assembly people.  They could teach her alot about it.

She decided at one retreat that God was calling her to be a singer.  She sucks at singing, however.  She was dissappointed because no one wanted her to sing.  She left and went to another church and began the same dance over there, as far as I know. 

She hates who she is, but likes it far more than the alternative, which is to admit that she is a phoney and has been enjoying her fantasy world.  She would rather do make-believe than change.  She doesn't want to change, and explaining the cross to her would be about as effective as a vacuum cleaner that shoots hair.  (she already knows the cross, and even taught a "breaking free" course at one time)

Brent

Brent A Christain friend of mine treats my ex in a very condesending manner. He treats her like she has to change or she isn't worth his respect. Yet I know this guy pretty good. we use to ride together on weekends and he was my best man. Today he is about 50# overwieght. Of course I have tried to encourage him (I am a big fitness nut, I've lost a lot of wieght and run about 5 miles a day)  But he won't change. Yet he doesn't see it as an issue. I don't either. So why does he treat my ex with such holier than thou attitude?

Why not indeed? In fact, many, if not most Christians do.
Your rhetorical question leads nicely into something I wanted to say David.
Have you ever wondered why Paul says if we are not to fulfil the liusts of the flesh, we are to walk, in the Spirit?
Why not jump, or even dance, in the Spirit? No offence to Pentecostals mind you... :)

WALKING is a vector - characterised by both magnitude and direction.

There is nothing more inimical to the warrior, in his war againt the flesh than aimlessness.

Why not learn to live with them?
If you not going anywhere, that is a perfectly legitimate question.
If you are, the answer is self-evident.
In fact, a more advanced development of this theme calls for the would be victor to not just walk, but run!
But I am getting ahead of myself am I not?   :)

let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us...

Verne

Brent & Others, what if the passion wasn't criminal, but undeniably sinful?  Then what?  No specific examples come to mind. 

Huh?

What does his weight have to do with it?  Why should he change his weight?
Perhaps the reason he treats your ex the way he does is because he doesn't like her?

I will say this, if you continue to run five mile a day, soon your overweight friend will be able to out run you.  Arthritis my good man.  Moderation!  Exercise in moderation.

Brent

If a person likes to do a sinful activity, they are probably going to keep doing it. 
When they get to the point where they mourn over their sin, they will probably stop.

Bro You are right about the arthritis, I've walked many a hallway with a TKR telling me about "jogging on asphalt/concrete" I use to run the dirt path in Oneill park but my wife got me to join 24 hour fitness. Running the treadmill is quite a difference on the joints!  I guess the issue is hey! I have grace on my friend!  I still treat him with respect. Yet, he sees my ex as less than himself even though he has his own issues just like her!

So I guess you answered your own question.  He sees himself as "better" than her.  We all have our issues, no doubt about it. 

However, there are some issues that are far worse than others:

The "evident" works of the flesh are bigger issues than being overweight.  In fact, the Bible says being "fat" is a blessing.  ( I don't think obesity is the idea here)

I am NOT of the opinion that everyone deserves equal respect.  Respect is something to be earned.  If a person shows me, night after night, that they don't know how to play poker, and raise every hand just to irritate people, I don't respect them, or their raises.  However, if I notice a quiet guy, who is polite and seems to pay attention to everything, if I notice that this guy wins every hand he gets involved with, but that ony plays one or two an hour....I respect this guy alot. 

I think life is the same way.  Lot's of people lose, because they don't have good hands, others bluff, and eventually lose, but those that are patient, focused and hardworking come out on top sooner or later. 

The best type of person to play poker with is what I call the "smart alec."   Every game has at least one of these.  They play garbage hands and honestly think they are smarter for doing that than everyone else.  They mock people who play mathmatically, and proudly share how they, "Never read a single poker book, didn't need to!"  They play the players, not the cards.

These guys are too stupid to know that they suck!  If you're just patient, and wait till you have a good hand, you raise them and act angry.  Their egos won't let them back down, and besides, they want to beat a "smart player," in order to prove that they're better.

They lose, because they think they're better than others.  That's different than being a bad player and knowing it. 

I don't know where I was going with this.....oh well.  People do change if they want to.

There is, unfortunately, also progress along that path for that walk is also directional...
As the hymnwriter stated- prone to wander...
Verne

Hello everyone.
I guess you could say I've been one of the "phantom" participants of this BB. I've never posted, but have dropped in from time to time to read everyone's thoughts, experiences etc. It has been a very profound experience for me. I finally decided to jump in today (not without a great deal of trepidation!) because this particular subject greatly interests me.

Most of you probably knew me as Elizabeth Geftakys, daughter of Timothy & Ginger Geftakys. I'm 28 now, my husband & I left the Fullerton Assembly in Jan. 2003--about four days prior to the official excommunication of my grandfather, George Geftakys. I wish I could make amends to all of you for the "sins of my fathers." After reading some of the heart-wrending experiences so many have gone through, I have many times been brought to tears. I, like many of you, have experienced great suffering as a result of my Assembly years---25 yrs. to be exact.

The reason I am posting today is because the issue that David Mauldin has brought up strikes a very sensitive chord in me. I have spent the past two years trying to make my life look as different as possible from my Assembly persona. I have grappled with the issue: what does it mean to have been a Geftakys and am I doomed to repeat the "sins of my fathers"? I have wondered many times through many sleepless nights: why me? Why my family? Is this who I am?

Anyway, all this to say: through the kind help of a few gentle people (and God) I have come to realize that my past as Geftakys does NOT determine my future. For this, I thank God. If anyone was ingrained with Geftakys-ism, it was the children raised in that environment. Little by little, and through determined and conscious effort on my part, I am casting off the shackles of the Assembly. I am helped by God's grace (amazingly, my faith did not completely abandon me!), and am on the slow journey to recovery.

So, to answer Dave's question: can anyone ever get beyond "their issues"?---I certainly hope so and yes, I am experiencing it every day. I have to believe that God is stronger than my "issues" and stronger than my past as a Geftakys.

I continue to hope.  :)

Good for you Elizabeth!   I am so glad to hear you say that!  I think it is great that you are moving on. I apologize for being such an ass!


    Do I contradict myself! Very well then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes! :D :D

                                                             Walt Whitman


                                                         
                                               

                 

God is stronger than your issues, to the point that He declares you righteous.  Good for you Elizabeth!  If you and the other kids can heal, certainly some others can as well.  The fact that you want to cast off the shackles is all that is needed.  You'll be successfull!

I wish you nothing but the best!

Brent

And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;  And patience, experience; and experience, hope:  And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
Great to hear from you Elizabeth! Thanks for what you shared.
Verne

hey, no worries dave! i have only great, fun memories of you! you were the best craft counsellor at summer camp: come on down now, was the call for crafts each day, as we molded and we painted and we crafted with the clay! oh, works of art! to touch our mother's heart! remember that?  ;D

brent: you and your family were part of the reason I stayed sane during that MTT from hell in summer '97! i remember i had a migraine one afternoon (stress induced, i'm sure) and you pressed some spot on my neck and the headache magically disappeared!  :D not to mention, i loved your kids, gillian and paulina were such cutie-pies.

pardon the digression on this thread!
p.s. hi verne, i don't remember you...but you probably remember me?

Perhaps, but is looking good a worthy end?




Doing good is an altogether different matter. I would not equate it with self-denial in the way I think you intend it.
To do good for one's fellow man is part and parcel of the human condition and clearly doing good does not necessarily require a "denial of self". I would argue that is an affirmation of self. To do good is entirely human!


 Does it follow that with self denial the opposite is true? Sondra are you aware of the religions that practice the most severe kind of personal privation including self-flagellation?
Some seemingly self-less acts are borne of quite impure motives.
Remember we are talking to believers whose interest is in how to overcome the tendencies of the flesh, not to mature christians on matters of spiritual discipline.
When you simply tell the stuggling believer to "deny himself" he will plaintively and correctly tell you that he finds it impossible!


Only God knows. Appearances can be quite deceiving. It is far more diificult to judge what is truly a work of the Spirit of God and not merely the product of carnal energy. At times they are difficult to distinguish.


This is the whole point. Self-denial must have a purpose. One does not walk around the entire day deciding NOT to do what one thinks one should. Self-denial is a totally meanigless expression apart from a stated context.


BINGO! We may then ask ourselves, is in this matter, my pursuit of Christ an issue?
"If any man will come after me..."
That which in your life will interfere with your pursuit of Christ, in another man's may not, ergo, take up his cross...
There is no universal self-denial formula that a person may apply. Like the case of the rich youg ruler, that is God's business to discern...

 


Both, for they were not mutually exclusive. The fact that it was what God wanted Him to do,  was prima facie proof that it was ultimately indeed in His best interests. God has highly exalted Him...!

You are too kind!  When I look back on that Summer, and some of the other teams, I do have some fond memories, mostly of the hanging out and talking variety.  The outreach was really gruelling.  I loved the driving!  

I guess you were under some pressure that summer, being who you were, and newly engaged.  If so, you didn't show it!  But then, we weren't supposed to show it, were we?  ;)

The kids are still cute, although they are larger.  Shawn is 6'3" and came close to beating me in an arm-wrestle.  I won't wrestle him for real anymore....he'll hurt me.  

Hi!:

Unless you came to Champaign sometime before '89 we probably never met Elizabeth.
So pleased to meet you... :)
Verne

If a Christian comes to me an confides that he is struggling with some besetting sin, the matter of primary interest for me would not be what he does, but what he knows.
It is nothing short of remarkable, the frequency with which Paul will make some critical point of practical doctrine with the interrogative:  "Know ye not...?"
I would certainly not inform such a person that what they needed to do was to deny themselves.
They are in the position they are in clearly because they have been unable to do just that.
You cannot talk to a person about walking, until you have talked to them about sitting, and standing.
It is quite startling to observe the number of true Christians who do not fully appreciate where God has placed them in Christ.
It is remarkable how many Christians are of the opinion that what was begun in the Spirit, will now be completed in the flesh. One has to begin with clarity on position and having a  proper perspective.
I won't talk in any detail about those as I will assume we have broad agreement.

(It goes without saying that what is being presented here has absolutely no application for a person who does not know Jesus Christ.)

What about this matter of walking in the Spirit?
What exactly is that and how does one do it?
I was not joking when I posed the question of whether is person could be at all serious about a matter like this without having talked to God about it.
The application of salvation in the life of the Christian is the exclusive domain of the Spirit of God.
Your pastor cannot do it.
Your efforts cannot do it.
This BB cannot do it.
God alone can do it.
Are you going to attempt it without Hiim?
If you are going to walk in the Spirit, there first has to be transparency:

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 1 John 1:7

More later...
Verne

Dear Elizabeth,

Thank you for sharing that with us.  It is encouraging to see God's healing work in your life. May God use you to bless others with the lessons that your learn from all of this.

God bless,
Marcia

Isaiah 61:1,4 (NIV)
       He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
       to proclaim freedom for the captives
       and release from darkness for the prisoners,
....
       They will rebuild the ancient ruins
       and restore the places long devastated;
       they will renew the ruined cities
       that have been devastated for generations.

Elizabeth:

Good to have you on the forum.  It's good to hear from you.

Unlike you, most of my "issues" were in place before my Assembly days.

I can't imagine not having a "before".

I have to admit, though, that for YEARS I can remember you being not too excited about being "in the meeting".

Forgive me for judging you at those times, and in any poor judgment I have shown in my comments here.

Matt Sciaini

I sometimes say, and only partly in jest, to someone in talking about a problem they are having:

"Does God know about this?"

It is always amusing to seen the way they look at you with aplomb!
If they get real indignant and say something like"
"What kind of question is that? Of course He knows about it...!"

I will retort with a straight face: 'How do you know, did you tell Him?"

Have you noticed how some people will talk to everybpdy else about their sin and their problem except to God?
I suggested that one way we walk in the Spirit is by being tranparent.
Please note that 1 John 1:7 is not talking about how, we walk, but where  we walk.
If we walk in the light...
I believe this means that it is important to talk to God about your specific sins.
So often in our minds we feel we are unworthy to appraoch Him because of our failure, and we are ashamed to do the one thing that will help us - going to God.
John I think confirms this thought two verses later when he says (as we talked about this in some detail):

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

How do you walk in the Spirit? You have to be transparent.
Verne

p.s. I assumed when Sondra asked me a question about this, I would at least be extended the courtesy of completing my response. That is allright and she is entitled to her opinion. The only thing I will say about her last post is that the call to deny oneself, take up the cross and follow Christ is not the Biblical remedy for dealing with sin's power. The call to discipleship is something much higher...

"If any man will come after me..."  not if any man will overcome his sin!
If you haven't learned to deal with the latter, what are the chances  you will do the former?
Verne

For those of you who do not find my slow and deliberate pace "tiring" (it seems as if I recall a request to slow things down a bit  :) ), I want to say a bit more about what I refer to as transparency.

I believe its application in 1 John 1:7 has to do with more  than just confession of known sin.
I guess I am something of an idealist and it is truly alarming to me to see some of the things professing Christians today struggle with. Some things our Bibles tell us are not even to be named among believers.
Nonetheless, these things happen in the church and we have to deal with them.
One thing that is most heart-breaking to me is to see the way some Christian parents destroy the faith of their children by their choices. Nothing made me want to change more than a desire to be a good example to my children and by my lifestyle, enable them to think favourably about the God we claim to serve and love.
Not all sins are obvious.
Some people spend countless hours in counselling sessions.
Expend every human effort to change their habits.
Try to implement any and all advice proffered on the subject - all to no avail.

The reason?  They have failed to identify the real problem!

If we walk in the light...

Confession of known sin is the most  basic application of the teaching of 1 John 1: 7 and 9.
What about the hidden issues??!!
How are you going to confess those?
How are you going to deal with those by self-denial?

If we walk in the light...


There are some things that God has to show us.

The word transparency is made of of two latin words that mean "to show" and "through" literally to show through something.
So while I believe confession of known sin is included, I think it goes beyond that.

If we walk in the light...

What does God use to get transparency in the life of the Christian?
I will next tell you why I think Christians that do not spend time in God's Word are in trouble...
Verne

P.S. I don't know about the rest of you guys but the thing that I want to learn from other believers  is what God has personally taught them, supported of course by what Scripture teaches. It is great fun to talk about doctrine. It is even great to parrot great things that others have said.
It is another thing alltogether to share with others out of your own life experience with God. Who said any of this is theory?   You figure it out...:)

When I want to ridicule someone, they don't have to read between the lines. That's not my style.
I have reviewed my posts to try and find where I called you stupid and cannot find  it.



As tempting as it is to begin with one's experience. That is not the place to start.
The things you cite above are quite serious and evidence of a person (assuming that they are saved) who is not walking in the Spirit. That is the Biblical prescription. I wish I could offer another solution  but I cannot for the Bible does not. What I have attempted to do is explain, in a practical way, what I believe the Biblical prescription is.
My Bible tells me that as a Christian, sin SHALL NOT have dominion over me. Is my Bible mistaken?
 

That has nontheless been your emphasis. I have repeatedly stated to you that you cannot kill what is already dead yet you seem obsessed with that particular mantra. Show me one verse of Scripture that instructs the believer to kill the old man or anybody elser for that matter.
Furthermore even  if you cannot find such a verse, explain to me exactly how would you crucify the old lfie?
You previous statement about just say" NO" has not been very helpful for the simple reason   that Paul on Romas 7 tells us it is ineffective. If you are  honest, it has not helped you either Sondra.
 We are told to mortify the deeds of the flesh, and how do we do that?
We do it thorugh the Spirit Sondra. We do it through the Spirit!

   
 

I am learnig to be thick-skinned. These things happen when talking about improtnat things. No offense taken.
 




Are you serious? Are you forgetting that I am a married man??!!   :)
The answer to that question is self-evident. Why else would I be talking about this. What I am saying is alltogeher auto-biographical. I did warn you that how God worked in my life may not be the same for others did I not?
I can only share the ways in which He has shown me to effectively deal with my own issues. I believe the things I am saying have clear warrant in the Scripture.


 

If somene has gone to God in open confession of Sin, and the situation you are decribing obtains, there is a very serous problem that may be beynd the scope of a discussion on a forum such as this.
Some things are best dealt with privately.
1 John 1:9 is clear as can be. Sin confessed, is sin forgiven and cleansed.

Verne

p.s. It just ocurred to me that there has to be a serious caution given here. The symptoms you describe above are unsettling. We must keep in mind that some problems are organic in nature and not spiritual.
For folk who have dabbled in the occult, a whole new paradigm is in order. I am not prepared to talk about that at this time or on a froum like this.

Have you considered that this kind of behaviour may not be a spiritual issue at all but possibly an organic one?
I am assuming that this is a person who has not been involved with the occult.
Dealing with the flesh is not the same as dealing with demonic forces.
I am assuming that this is a person genuinely born from above.
I have difficulty with the designation "most people with deep fleshly sin"
Is this the same as saying most Christians? I do not put "most Christians" in the category fitting the sobering description you have given above..



Christians who have spent a long time in wilful disobedience to God, particularly with regard to physical appetite, face a particularly dificult problem. Habitual sins of this kind create deep psychic and emotional channels into which, at the slightest temptation, an overpowering torrent of compulsion flows.
I have seen few cases of those with this kind of problem who were able to deal with it alone.
Sadly, many deceive themselves and are unwilling to become accountable to anyone and so continue in bondage.
This sort of thing does not happen overnight. It has implications that I don't think we can handle on a forum like this. There generally in these cases needs to be additional intervention. I consider this sort of  situation to be the exception. In really serious cases some people face a life-long struggle. The principle of sowing and reaping is not abrogated on receipt of the gift of salvatioin.  I am sorry if I appeared to trvialize this kind of difficulty Sondra. I have seen it, but very rarely in Christians.
Verne

But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.


The Christian faced three fundamental problems with regard to sin.
The have all been conclusively dealt with by the sacrificial death of Christ on the cross of calvary.

 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Heb. 10:14

God dealt with matter of sin's penalty.
He dealt with the matter of sin's power.
He dealt with the matter of sin's presence.

There is an old hymn that has some great theology, but the hymnwriter missed one...

Rock of ages cleft for me
Let me hide myself in Thee
Let the waters and the blood
From they riven side whch flowed
Be of sin the double cure
Cleanse me from its guilt and power.


It is a wonderful hymn. I would change the word double to triple for theological precision, but that would ruin the symmetry of the hymn would it not?  :)

We are told repeatedly in Scripture, that there are two divine instruments, as it were, for effecting the cleansing of the Christian from his sin.
Most of us will immediately cite the blood of Christ. It is indeed the most frequently referenced in the Scripture.
There flowed of of the pierced side of the Saviour both water and blood.
I realised that I have been making a lot of assumptions so I am going to start asking some questions before doing so much talking.

What does the water that flowed signify?

On the corss, which of your sins did Christ atone for?
The ones before you were saved?
The ones before you were baptized?
The ones before you confessed them and promised never to repeat?
The ones after you confessed them and repeated anyway?
What about the ones you never confessed?
What about the ones you don't know about?
Which ones?!

Verne

This quote is a  real key Sondra. It in a very real way illustrates the differnce in the way we are looking at this issue.
When a person begins to indulge fleshly appetites with reckless abandon, that is only evidence that he has lost another battle. In my humble opinon, the door to demonic forces is not the flesh, it is the mind!
I will await your other responses before saying more...

p.s I recognize some theologians use "flesh" in the sense of a "carnal mind". I am assuming your reference is to sensual and physical appetites...


True. But not everyone is equipped to handle every kind of sin. Even the apostles faced limitations in this regard.
I know my limitations!  :)
But seriously, very Christian should be able to look at that list, and by the grace of God declare that he is free from those things...he certainly should not be enslaved to any...
Verne

Let's take the plunge...water it is...!

Verne

Just a comment: (I know your ready to take the plunge) It seems to me alot of the problem is Loving  the World from 1 John 2:15-17 The lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the boastful pride of life. Its a matter of obedience and choice.You may not indulge in all the fleshly sins but could have a horrific problem being boastfully proud. James goes over it again in James 4 you lust and kill to consume on your passions he's talking to christians here. Also the Lord said if you look at a woman lustfully you've already committed adultry. Okay I know your on another track here, but these thoughts came to mind.  Summer p.s. It also seems like demon possession manifested itself in the symptoms of mental illness, do you think this is so?

I think God the Father see's us like the "certain man who had two son's" One was really good kept all the rules. The other the Prodigal wanted his inheritance now and spent it all with harlots and riotous living, then he began to be in want and no-one would help him, so he comes to his sences, to go back to his father. Now the Father is looking for him, he see's him a great way off, and runs to meet him. Any parent would do the same thing, restore the lost child, is it fair to the good son (the pharisee) no, but that's God's love to us. Some of us just love the world, and have to be practically sifted as wheat to get the picture. Summer.

This is why victory over sin's power is not simply a matter saying "no" to the vulgar. God has to literally transform us from the inside out. The problem we men tend to have with lust is an excellent example.
Some guys think it is O.K to look, as long as you don't touch.
I dion't happen to agree. God wants purity of affections.
You know what? Women can always tell the difference.  :)
I could tell you stories...

Is it possible that some folk in attempting to deal with their sin are not so much concerned about sin as that which displeases God, as they would just like to be rid of sin's consequences?
God knows our hearts and whether we are trying to play games with HIm.
It is not His intention that sin be our master. If it is, something is very wrong.
Not all mental illness is demonic in my opinon. I think we need to be very careful what we ascribe aberrant behaviour to. Most times the problem is a medical one and can and should be treated as such.
Verne

Well Verne what does it look like to you ? I would think it would be more subtle, like an angel of light, then the man in the cave carving himself, breaking out of his chains. Remember Christ said, "rejoice not that the demons are subject to you, but rejoice your names are written in heaven".

 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed:

I am no expert, but you are right in that appearances can be deceiving.
Some people like Malachi Martin, a catholic priest, apparently have special gifts for dealing with this sort of thing and make some remarkable claims about what goes on all around us on a daily basis.
One thing is certain, anything overtly hostile to the Lord Jesus Christ is suspect in my opnion...
Verne

True Verne I think someone can be under testing like Job was in satans hand and God told him to just spare his life, no-one, his wife or friends knew what was going down. And satan activly requested Peter, and Christ said I have prayed for you that your FAITH FAIL NOT. Many people are no worry to satan they just destroy themselves on their own. So your right not all mental illness is demonic possession, some of it is medical, and some oppression, and loss of one kind or another. Think of the subtillity in "the devils believe and tremble"  Summer.

Let's not get sidetracked on a discussion about the nature of mental illness, please? :)

The issue here is dealing with sin, and thereby effectively getting past "issues."

Here's something to consider:

Salvation occurs the moment we believe, and can never be revoked.
Does the circumcision that Sondra refers to happen over a lifetime?  Can it be revoked?

Those are basically the two questions (asked with different words)  that led me to reject the Deeper Life ideas on death to self, pouring out one's soul to death and the idea that "It is finished," actually turns out to mean,  "It has begun."

Both Sondra and Verne agree that sin is a problem, and that Christians still sin.  Both maintain that people do change and overcome sin....the debate is how and why.

Carry on, I'm enjoying the discussion.

I apoligize for the diversion. ( draw near to God and he will draw near to you)

?? no problem! (He who has The Son has The Life.)  (I AM The Way, The Truth, and The Life)

Really not to stray off-course, but does'nt it seem like in Christs day the people with un-clean spirits/demon possion had the same symptoms of those who are using modern-medicine to control their insanity whether it be hormonal, or chemical or drug induced.This was the question? I promise to stay the course.

Yep, and they got better real quick too.

I believe we overcome/rise-above by living the Abundant Life in Christ enjoying the freedom.( At this point who wants to go back and wallow's in the mire? those who are in bondage, servants of corruption.)

Simmer you have put your finger on the thing that has me puzzled about a lot of what Sondra has been presenting.
The kind of symptoms that she describes as being the lot of the typical Christian I find strange in the extreme.
No wonder a person experiencing those kinds of things would develop a theology of self-loathing, hence self re-crucifixion.
I have been sorely tempted to talk about the rise of ascetic dualism in the first century as I hear some of these things but I want to keep an open mind.
I can say one thing with great confidence.
Any Christian who approaches his sin with a firm "I will..." or "I will not..." is doomed to failure and I guarantee it.
He is re-subjecting himself to the law of sin and death.
We are not under law but under grace!
In fact the one thing about re-crcifixion theology that has me genuinely puzzled is whether or not those who espouse it can give witness that it has aided them in living a holy life. How do you know when crcifixion of the self-life is complete?
How long does it take? What are the evident results?
Perhaps Sondra can give some insight here.
I am not saying that as Christians we do not have issues we have to address and personal failures that we endure.
But our new life in Christ is one of joy unspeakable and full of glory. I can say before God and men that this has been my lot, praise His holy name! Temptations do come of course, but greater is He that is in us than he that is in the world.
The power for godly living is available to all who want it in my view. God is faithful!
I am trying my best to understand what is being said but I am frankly having a bit of difficulty for the exact reason you have stated in your post. The mire does indeed seem to be a most unattractive place!  :)
Great thought!
Verne

Yes Verne it appears to me Paul's comparing the Jew with outward circumcision, and the saved with his heart circumcised, and then Paul says what really matters is the New Man in Christ. We don't need to look for trials, they'll surely come our way as the Lord said and then added "Be of good cheer I've overcome the world". And I don't think we suffer forever re: IPeter 5:10 says after you have suffered awhile, not forever. Alot of the walk is by Faith, not leaning on our own understanding. Were running a race, were to lay aside what trips us up, course we may fall, but we get back up, and run.  Summer.

One of the things that deeper life theolgy often does is to divide the church in multi-tiered ranks of advancement.
George loved to use this for motivation.
I see only two in Scripture - the babe in Christ, and the full grown.
Now I know that logically there is progress between these two extremes.
A lot of what this discussion has to do with is most likely where we are at in our stages of growth in grace in my view...
Verne


Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.




That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine...  But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things,

p.s. It seems to me  that which of the two proffered paradigms offered by Sondra and me you subscribe to will depend on whether you view your Christian audience as children or as sons...how's that for compromise?  :)

This is the whole problem with the notion that you can "just say no" to sin. How do you say "no" to pride?
How do you say "no" to lust? The Lord said if you "looked" you are already in trouble, forget about touching.
How do you say "no" to covetousness? Do we understand what Christ was saying when he said that our righteousness must exceed that of the Scribes and the Pharisees?
They conformed strictly to the letter of the law. They could not change what was on the inside!
When you attempt to deal with sin by sheer force of will or regimen of any sort, while some may succeed in an outward confirmation to even a high moral standard, they can do absolutely nothing about the condition of the heart, which is the true source of all transgression, and what God will judge..
You want to overcome your sin? God has to transform you.
He does this by His Holy Spirit. It really is that simple.
Verne

 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord 2 Cor 3:18

p.s. I had what I thought would be some very helpful comments on the theme of transparency and really wanted to take it somewhere  but I am going to leave it alone for now..I don't think its the right tiime. I did not pull that theme out of a hat. I believe it is right there in our Bibles. Everything in its time...I have said enough for the time being I think.

Any Scriptural references for this idea? I have done a fairly exhaustive search on both phrases "blood of circumcision" and "blood of the anointing" and could not find a reference. In both OT and NT anointing is frequently coupled with "oil".
Many agree that this is a typology of the Spirit's empowerment. I agree with this view.


Does this imply that when we are cleansed and anointed with "our own anointing" we cease to be under the Blood of the lamb by faith?
Verne

Verne, I know nothing about the transparency doctrine. Looking forward to you explaining it. The only reference I ever heard of was when Lee Irons was pounded with it, that was in the 90's. Could it be the clear transparent reality of the Lord? I don't know!  Summer. p.s. You and your Daughter have my Mother's Birthday 9/26. I looked over at the toxic thread where you posted that info. Boy you really ate Matt alive. Too bad he does'nt see the humor, well maybe he does now, these things come with age!

My thinking on transparency comes from 2 Cor. 3:18 and has to do with how the Word of God illuminates (and transforms)our lives.
We often think that the things most visible are the most important. You made a great point a few posts ago about the sin of pride for example which can be totally hidden. I was responding to the idea that self-denial is the Biblical prescription for dealing with our sins. There are things in our lives which are seen only by God. He is the one that makes us transparent!
Verne

  For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Hebrews 4:12

 p.s A bit busy right now but we will talk some more later... :)

I just want to point something out here:

I don't think it's a correct representation of Sondra's position with the above statement.  As far as I can tell, she is NOT teaching that Self Denial is a way to deal with sin.  She is talking about Self Denial in the context of taking up one's cross; in other words in the context of sanctified living.  That can't be done until sin is dealt with, which is only through Christ's finished work on the cross.


What I understand her position to be is that God's part was that sin was forgiven in Christ, and we were saved, and given new life in Christ.  The candle of our spirits, which was aforetimes put out, is now lit, and it is the Lord.

Self denial, or walking in the spirit---our part--- is one of the means in which to use the spirit to put to death the soul, (seed of corn analogy) in order that our whole body, soul and spirit can be fashioned in Christ's image. 

So, to characterize it the way you did, Verne, is not going to help the discussion much....I could be mistaken, in which case all of this will be cleared up.  Just be careful, on both sides, to accurately represent what the other is saying. 

I made a similiar mistake years ago when I was "disproving" reformed theology.  I misrepresented it in my own mind by assuming that they taught that there was no need to preach to the lost, God would save those He would save, and those that weren't elect would be lost, regardless of how much we preached and labored.  It was easy to reject Reformed theology with that straw man on the other side.  Of course, I remained quite ignorant as to what they really believed, but I sure did win every argument! :D

I don't know where I first heard of this idea, but somewhere I heard or read that in order to have a really first class debate, both sides must be able to argue their opponents positions accurately and strongly.  Then, the merit of one position over the other becomes apparent, instead of the ability of one debater to play better games with semantics, misrepresentation and straw men.  I'm not saying you're doing that Verne, just encouraging you to make certain you know what she is actually saying.

Same applies to Sondra.

Carry on!

Brent 

I hear you Brent. Your points are well taken.
Just so that all my remarks will be kept in context, here is the specific question that was raised, and to which all my comments have been directed. Please note that the one specific thing Sondra has said in regard to her own query was that we say "no" to our sinful desires, which if I understand correctly, is equivalent to her concept of self-denial.  I maintain that self-denial in reference to "taking up one's cross", does not have in view  as its context, Sondra's oiginal question.
The farthest thing from the mind of one struggling with sin is taking his or anybody else's cross. What he wants is relief!

O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? Romans 7:24


Just because we want something different from what God wants does not necessarily imply that the desire is sinful, so taking up one's cross does not necessariy provide insight as to how the Christian is to deal with his sin. Taking up one's cross means we relinquish our will for His regardless!.
Self-denial is certainly not the same as walking in the Spirit. Ascetics deny self far better than any Westerner could possibly hope to. It may be a chicken or egg first question.
I am simply saying that neither physical, emotional nor psychological discipline is equal to the task of delivering the believer from sin's power.
So what I am saying, I am saying to a person presumably "held in bondage and torment", as per her original question.
If you are walking in the Spirit, the matter of self-denial is irrelevant, so far as sin is concerned!.

Verne

   These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting rigor of devotion and self-abasement and severity to the body, but they are of no value in checking the indulgence of the flesh.  Col. 2:23 RSV 


This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. Gal 5:16

This is the entire point!
The BIble does not tell the Christian to conquer his sin, he is told to confess it.
It is God's job to forgive. It is God's job to cleanse.
Uneless you have learned and applied this most fundamental of priniciples, chances are that you will remain a slave. You also run the risk of enslaving others.
This is the legacy of George Geftakys.
Verne
p.s I am interested in hearing what others think that it means to "walk in the Spirit".  This is the key.

I was really looking forward to the explanation of the “blood of circumcision” and the “blood of annointing” but I guess I will have to remain in the dark for a while longer.
I wanted to try and shed a bit more light on the remarks I earlier made about transparency.
You cannot talk about overcoming besetting sin, which results from growth in grace and learning what it means to walk in the Spirit, and neglect the critical role of the Word of God.
Both blood and water flowed out of the side of the crucified Christ. We all know that water is a type of the Spirit. The instrument the Spirit of God uses is the Word of God.
I believe the blood of Christ cleanses us judicially but that the Spirit uses the Word to cleanse us practically:

That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word.


 If someone claims to be victorious over their sin, and also claims to be neglectful of the Scriptures, I would simply ask:

“How do you know?”


 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:(mirror)
 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

If you neglect the Word of God, your walk in the Spirit I suspect to be unsteady at best.

2 Corinthians 3 compares the ministry of the law under Moses, and the ministry of the gospel of grace as found in Christ Jesus.

One was written on stone.
The other on the fleshy tablets of the heart.
One was a ministry of veiled and subsequently fading glory.
The other of unveiled and increasing and surpassing glory.

There is no more common error among Christians than than to confuse these two.

 But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a glass (mirror) the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Verne