AssemblyBoard

  I recently heard of a San Fransisco Seminar!  I was very surprised, isn't the Assembly just about over???  Or is it remorphing???  A reocurring nightmare of mine has been attending a seminar. "What?"  "Why am I here?"  "Maybe I can slip out the back?" 

Praise the Lord! Do you have the address?

Why are you surprised?
All the recent talk about putting the assembly experience behind us nothwithstanding, what makes anyone think that the proud and belligerent spirit that led a man like George Geftakys to such self-exaltation despite shamefully disgracing himself in the company of God's people, would be deterred by his most recent failure?
I must say that I have observed with some amusement the smug and self-righteous commentary about "healing" and "moving on" all of which no doubt have their place.
These folk however clearly demonstrate that they have still failed to grasp the lesson of that era.
They don't really understand the nature of this business.
Go read your Bibles and see what it says is to be the Christian posture toward apostasy.

Does anybody  really think recalling the horror of the apostate Geftakys and what he did is really so much about us and our suffering?!

So they are having seminars...I wonder if there were any new faces... :'(
Verne

p.s. it is the sobering responsibility of all those who enabled this spiritual fiend, to see to it that other potential victims are duly warned; it is why I still post...

David,  Are you planning to go for old times sake?  :)

Verne, If the main reason you post on this BB is to warn potential victims, how do you think those victims will even find this BB?  Also, will they not benefit more from seeing a bunch of healthy Christians having good interesting discussions and not stuck on 'the way it used to be'.  Most people who come to this board read the old threads, so we don't need to relive and rehash ad nauseum.  It's kind of like driving a truck all week, and your radio is broken and it's stuck on a Christian radio station that only plays those peanut butter mixes (is that the correct term?).  I know it would drive Clarence crazy.  I'd be sick pretty soon and want to abandon the truck, or get my radio fixed.  You can be blunt with me if you disagree.  I promise not to have a conniption.

We are zealous to expose the hypocrisy of the assembly, and yet tolerate the same but under a different guise. :P

Marcia

I daresay your sentiments are exactly those of folk who knew about George Geftakys' early transgressions. Considering what was known about George, an awful lot of folk "abondoned the truck" as you so colorfully put it.
It is not about you.
It is not about us.
It is about standing for righteousness...until we die...
As long as these folks are meeting, we should not stop talking about them.
You have proved my point Marcia.  :)
Verne

p.s. I am unclear about your reference to what hypocrisy we "tolerate under a different guise". Would you please clarify? Who exactly is tolerating what? Do be blunt.

Verne,

You did not answer my question.  What are you doing to ensure that potential victims find this BB?

And how, pray tell, are my "sentiments exactly those of folk who knew about George Geftakys' early transgressions?"

How are we failing to stand for righteousness by not rehashing and reliving ad nauseum?

You do not agree that old threads tell the story?
You do not agree that the website can be a good museum to remind us and inform the potential victim?

If someone came on board asking some questions etc. then, yes, we should answer them and have a good discussion with them, but for us to keep reliving it gets to sound like a broken record eh??  If someone posts news, like David did, then, yes, we should not pretend and ignore it.

Personally, I am about to abandon ship myself because I am getting sick of peanut butter and the hypocrisy that is tolerated in the name of "Christlikeness".

Marcia

I post. If someone reads fine. But at least knowing what I know, I am not silent.


I imagine George's former associates also grew tired of talking and hearing about the kind of man he was.
Don't you think it remarkable that a man of his vices was able to convince so many that he was an "apostle"?
Those who knew better failed to alert the unwary in my view.



One person's "rehashing and reliving" is another person's "putting in remembrance".
Clearly there are other topics on the BB.
You seem to be of the opinon that any mention of George and the assemblies is somehow taboo.

...and..?


Clearly


Unless I am mistaken, that is exactly what took place. My comments were made in response to Dave's post.
Your petulance is therfore all the more puzzling my friend.


Take your lifeboat!  :)
Whatever it is that got stuck in your craw Marcia, I sincerely hope you are able to expel it. Let's not ever start taking ourselves too seriously shall we?
Verne

   It would be a trip into the twilight zone!  I can imagine trying to exlain everything to my wife. "This is the Hymns and Spiritual Songs" "This is a head covering" "You have to wear it because of the angels!" It might be nice to converse with a few people (Some people might honestly listen to what I had to say as a valid viewpoint on reality. Others would just wait patiently for their opportunity to preach.)  but I don't think I could sit longer than 10 minutes of "teachings" about the "Testimony to Jesus!" If people want to live in "community" for the rest of their lives I think it is understandable. There are many legitimately good things about "community" that most people will never know about or experience. (My church has what they call "Circle Dinners". Groups of 8-12 people get together in someones home for a nice meal that everyone has prepared. I am always tempted to blurt out... "All things are ready come...")
I was curious if this seminar was run by George or not?

David, You have just reached the Outer Limits !  Verne and Marcia good points both.  Marcia has recently left and Verne you've been gone for a while so your perspective is different. Can you imagine being fullly ingrossed in the system when it crashed ? Completly different views and is probibly healthier for M to not be so consummed with past Assm. V can be more objective having had the advantage of Time!  Summer.

p.s. David I did'nt see all of your post. Your wife would probibly think you were Insane!

I am definitely not the "community type", although there are some good things to be learned for a season.
We should never forget that what made the assemblies bad was not necessarily format, but that Geftakys was a predatory traitor...
Verne

Verne, Yes no-one should forget II Peter 2 and what it says about the damnable heresys and the swift destruction on the teachers and their follower's. So contrary to Sondra's opinion that these are the Lords people I don't agree, some are Christians decieved and mis-led, but it's obvious now the majority that are left if they buy into the seventh day creation will probibly have all of eternity in Hell to figure out where they went wrong, whiles they are looking for the exit, when their is no exit in Hell! I would suggest to "Night-Owl" to have a serious talk with her Family member I think Time is of the Essence now! "The Night is far spent the Day is at hand" Look at DM who was in for 15 years he repeats over and over he's not a Christian he does'nt believe, he was just going through the motions following the rules! So theirs an example of one of the participants.  Summer.

Hilarious David.  ;D I see that you don't like re-runs eh??
I assume, and again I say assume, that George will be there.  I believe that SF, Sac, Riverside, and Pasadena(I think) still welcome George and Betty in the name of fogive and forget.  George is not welcome in the other gatherings, but ...


Verne,

With all the talk of abandonning ship and all, that response of yours almost put me over the edge.  ;D

In your original response to David, I disagree with the way you connected "moving on" with meaning that we were saying to not talk about it any more.  Moving on does not imply that.  It just means that at every turn we are not preoccupied with it.  But when the opportunity arises, then, yes, speak of it just as you did in the rest of your original response.  I'm starting to sound like a broken record myself.

I'm glad my car radio is working.  I switch back and forth between a Christian radio station and an Oldies one.  If I do not like the peanut butter mix, I switch to Oldies.  If I don't like the lyrics I switch back to CHRI. and so it goes.  Listened to "In the jungle" today in the car when I took my daughter and myself for our dentist appts.  Great music.

Marcia

Speaking of Songs I heard this old Suzanne Vega song during a wonderful drive down PCH yesterday "Your only hit 'til you cry after that you don't ask why, you just don't argue anymore you just don't argue anymore. If you hear something late at night some kind of trouble some kind of fright just don't ask me what it was, just don't ask me what it was. My name is Luca I live on the second floor I live upstairs from you, yes I think you've seen me before, I walked into the door again, nothings broken, nothings torn, just don't ask me what it was, just don't aske me what it was. "Luca" my sympathys to all the kids who have to endure seminars and much more!  Summer.

I watched Hotel Rwanda last night. Chilling! But good!  :)
Verne
p.s. Around that time there was a Hutu chemistry post doc at U of I who was married to a Tutsie...lovely people...
p.p.s Hey Marcia...can you swim?  ;D

    If I was raised Amish I might have a lot of anger and resentment towards the leaders but still would identify with the community. I guess that is what I am saying here. I don't think I could stand listening to all the "We are the chosen....You are among the English...."  garbage  But I still enjoy the quilts, food, Clydsdales, bundeling etc...

Whatever Floats your Boat!

   I entertain my wife quite often with stories about the Assembly...etc... She is not to keen on Eph 5 "...wives submit..."  but she likes the idea of consequences for leaving dirty dishes in the sink! She gave up on my sanity long time ago!         

Yes dishes in the sink is really one of the Highest Crimes and Misdeamers...How many times are you going to change your posts????

Can't I have just a minute to edit them???

Please by all means take your time. It's just I saw your Hoffemyer Twins post with 3 devil horns. Then it was gone , too riskay for the board huh?

"Hostettler Sisters"  What do you kow about "BUNDELING?"  >:D >:D >:D >:D

Ok I was a little off. I know nothing about "Bundeling" and I really don't like the sound of it. Could it be a strange Amish court-ship custum? Kind of Creepy!

When an Amish young man is courting he often has travel a long distance by buggy. Thus he has to spend the night at the home of the young woman (In her bed!) :o :o. So, yust to make sure that no ya ya ;) ;) is goin on then they do vat's called bundeling!  They vear lots of clothes! Ya! dis will stop the devil!!! >:D >:D >:D


http://www.amish.net/

What no Guest rooms? It's my understanding the Mennonites had a branch brake off that became the Plymouth Brethren, not so stricked, which became The Brethren from which another branch brakes off which is GG and the Assm sect. Check the History! Summer.

I don't think you have it right.  The "Bretheren in Christ" are the outermost rung of the Amish. I attended one of these churches. It was the same as any E.V.Free church etc.The Plymouth were not associated with these people. Plymouth Bretheren were an offshoot of the Anglican Church! Can you believe it!  When you think about the emphasis on "The Lord's Cup" it makes sense!  In many ways the "Breaking of Bread" is just another version of mass. As I think I see it J. N. Darby was just the same as George. He was a meglamaniac. Always fitting his theology to ensure he had the pre-eminence. See the "Church in Ruin" doctrine.

Hey Dave:
I sure like your posts.  I considered you one of my best friends back when.  You gave me the best Birthday Present I ever received.  If you want to pm me you may.

I got an email from someone in WLA recently who is still in.  They are working on VBS, teen team and other activities this summer.  I have spoken to this person about their involvement but, her husband being the head of the home ......wanting eternal good for their family.........blah, blah blah.  Her child is visiting Tom Lessaris' child in Champaign for a while (sick) etc. etc.  Sounds like the same old thing.  I don't think the system is dying one bit.  No one is using their brain, thinking independently, or acting scripturally at all.  This poor woman has a zillion kids, lives in poverty in LA, has a degree, refuses to use her brain because of "the headship" blah, blah, blah.  More cultlike than ever.

me

As I said, these folks are going nowhere. Why should the rest of us?
The folks still involved are probably beyond help. The key is to keep others form ever thinking these people are normal.
Verne
p.s  I wonder how long before Lessares moves to L.A. His attempts at assembly making in Champaign will most likely meet with dismal failure. I will do my best to see to it. Last I heard he and his boys were alternating "bringing ministry" What a clown... ???

Must have been a gift I made???? A Hymn book cover?  Leather???  What does pm mean? My wife and I ran into Brent Hindegartd? (Spelling) at Sea World last summer. From what he said it sounded like it was pretty much no more Seminars and No more All day sunday and No more visting other assemblies. So I pretty much wrote them off. But not so???!!!   Amazing!!!!???  Boy I wish I knew who you were????  The family you described sounded like Bill Bradbury.

Sounds like wise counsel to me Marcia... :)
Verne

They are probably dripping honey around so that they can catch, or rather keep, some flies.  The key is "the way they speak".  As long as they are not doing it the way they used to, so that they don't trigger any negative reaction, and keep doing the spiritual things, then...   :P sick indeed.

Who cares about discernment of truth eh??

David M keeps telling us about how he does not like arrogant evangelicals, so he has turned to the way of the Unitarian.  Or as long as I speak 'sweetly' then I can convince any wounded pilgrim of anything and she will believe me just because I said it oh so sweetly.  Looks like this BB has the very same problem that those gatherings without GG have.  So who are we to judge them anyway??


David, interesting that many of the existing remaining post-GG assemblies are doing and not doing exactly the same things that you have mentioned.

Marcia

P.S.
PM - personal message to a BB poster
EM - email

Marcia

   I forgot  to mention that Brent told me that GG was out of the picture.  Is he back in???  or are other brothers leading the seminar???

Geftakys will probably be content to rule from the wings as long as the puppets send him the dough.
I have a hard time believing that he would want to maintain too high a profile at this time.
If he had the gumption to be preaching at a seminar I would hope that all the former Fullerton leading brothers would show up.(fat chance)
He apparently still has enough dolts willing to execute his agenda.
Verne
p.s Can you imagine how thick the spiritual air must be, in gathering of people still willing to listen to Geftakys?! Shivers me timbers...!

Despite the widespread rumors to the contrary, I am entirely lacking in either the authority or accoutrements to really do harsh. That task I leave to the Chief Shepherd.
My own loud protests are like a feeble whisper compared to the stentorian inquiry that will proceed from the mouth of Deity. You have not seen harsh, trust me...better, read your Bible.  :)
But seriously, would it not be awesome to see some of these fellows picketing a George attended gathering? What do you think would have happened if former elders in the church where George was disciplined one day showed up at some place where he was speaker and started loudly proclaiming:
Adulterer! Whoremonger! Liar! Unclean! Unfit for ministry! Or something to that effect.
At least young sisters would have been forewarned no?
 Do you think that would have made inquiring minds want to know?
I for one would be wanting more details...
Of course, he would have then, as he does now, insist that he was as pure as the driven snow...just being persecuted for righteousness sake you understand... :)
Verne

Verne, I remember hearing the whispers and rumbling of a split in the mid-west this was early 80's and I specifically asked one of the Leaders about it and was told the famous verse in Acts that some were trying to draw the disciples after them, and this has caused a division. Now if these people knew what kind of man GG was at that time and they went along with it it's unconscienable, and I truly believe that. I was 19-20 at the time and had no reason to think these people were lying to my face. I think this inciedent had to do with the Miller Family and protecting Mike, Nancy and Rebecca but I never inquired further. Imagine someone in my Family asking if I was a Jehovah Witness,that comment made me stop and think about how I was portraying the Christian Lifstyle. And don't look for the Leaders to picket soon, why would they? they know it would be seen as persecution, they know the game! Summer.

I am not sure where that paricular split was. Leaders were leaving all the time so it could have been practically anywhere. There was a huge depature from Tuscola Illinois around that time.
I have been gone many moons and I am still learning about all sorts of intrigues that were taking place under my very nose so to speak. For some of these inside folk I cannot possibly imagine who they could endure it. I have to say that I still shake my head in absolute amazement at the "disappearing leaders".
If I were in any of their shoes, the rest of my life would be devoted to trying to atone for my folly. I am not sure what all that would involve as I would not feel fit to serve as a leader anywhere. I would do my utmost to make sure others knew what the assemblies were all about. You are quite right of course. Few of these fellows seem to care about what they helped spawn...
I don't fault them for at the time thinking they were doing the right thing (although many of them had enough information to warrant doing far more than they did). The aftermath of the collapse has in fact been the most revealing.
Verne

Even as Eve was deceived by the serpent, we were deceived by the very same to believe that we had the vision of the testimony and that GG was a godly man.

After having had a number of wake up calls, these guys continue to hit the snooze button.  All to feed the vile egos of the leaders and their pride.  A key element to fruitfulness is an honest heart Luke 8:15 "And the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.  Otherwise, the lies that wallpaper the mind cannot be torn down and replaced with God's truth.

Marcia

Lead on, Oh Fearless One. 

It would be proper to be attired in Medieval garb and plant someone on a white horse with a sword girded on his thigh. (The rest of us could have shields that say, "School of the Holy Blunt.") On the back of the armor it should say, "Persecutor #_.

While we circled the place, GG would be preaching about how the angels were protecting everyone from his encircling persecutors.

Can you imagine the looks on their faces?  ;D They are already so wierded out, they may just think what they are seeing is the real thing.

We could have a black Jesus on the white horse. That should take BG out of the picture real quick.  ;)

We could have someone else dressed up to look like a demon to draw GG out, thinking that it was his good friend.

Then comes the blunt speakers of the truth to preach to the...................oh, never mind. They'd never believe it.

HYUK! HYUK!   ;D  ;D
Verne

Yep! I have boiled most of my theology down to simple agreement with Him.
No explanations.
No excuses.
No alibis.
No promises.

Thou God seest me...!

Verne

Wow. Check out this one.  :o

Ex-Mormons are listed on a Black Sheep Roster, where they share their experiences and emotions, the similarities of which are incredibly identical to ours.  :o

http://www.latterdaylampoon.com/gazelem/blacksheep/index.html

Wow, You're right it does look very similiar. Now that I think back I'd go to the prayer meetings and pray for people who had left and I would come away with a feeling that the ones who had left were now "black sheep" I can think of multiple examples of people who were put in this category.


I wonder when a Midwest Seminar will be raised up or a convocation....  :-\

Wirh all due respect Sondra, it is a terrible breach of BB etiquette for you to simply post a link to your website on AB with absolutely no commentary or explanation.
Those who are reading here do so by choice. Those who  want to read your site also have that option.
If you thought what you had to say would not be appropriiate for this forum, why would you think a link to the same thing elsewhere would be appropriate?
Please show a little courtesy to your fellow posters.

Verne

Verne, The one's that thought they were doing God's will, do you really think God will let them off the hook? If they were truly seeking Glory, Honor and Immortality Ro 2:7 Yes! The ones doing evil indignation and wrath No! I would think an LB who questioned the system after GG and the Bros got through with him, he was shut-up and made to feel he was wrong for questioning. Except for the few that have spoke out I'm sure they've just put the Past behind them. Summer

Moonflower, Your right not much difference from one cult to another. If you changed a couple words like lds to assm you'd never know the difference. Had to shake that off and change gears! Thanks Summer. p.s. Did you find the soap?

Not all leading brothers were workers. It is possible that some of these men were not privy to some of the dishonoring things that were taking place. This is almost certainly not the case with anyone who was a worker.
They all saw George at his "best" and elected to remain associated with him notwithstanding. I have said before that you could not remain associated with a man like this for any length of time and not be severely compromised in every way. This is not just my opnion. It is also the judgment of several people I know who served with Geftakys and ultimately left.
God speaks to his men.
Either they were not God's men, or God spoke and they ignored him.
Around truly spirit-filled men of discernment who lived in God's presence, George would have lasted for one pico-second. That is the reality. Don't any one offer me lying excuses for I know better.
Remember Nadab and Abihu?
You bring anything unholy into God's presence, and something's gotta give...think about what this says about so many of us...
Verne

Verne, I agree with what your saying. What it says to me is that," It's the Lords mercies that we are not consumed because His compassions fail not. They are new evey morning,Yes new every morning: Great is thy Faithfulness. Lam 3. Summer p.s. I remember a sister new to the work telling me of an incident with GG in a restaurant, she seemed really dis-turbed by how rude he was to the waitress this was just prior to my leaving I did'nt know what to make of it other then maybe he was having a bad day, just a small incident, but very telling!

Interesting,

Once I was in a restaurant with the Great One.  It was a seafood place in Fullerton.  We ordered, and when the waitress brough us our food, El Supremo told her that he didn't order what she brought him.  He said he ordered what I was having.

It wasn't true at all, she brought him what he ordered.  I tried to tell him, but he was too busy insisting that she was wrong to listen to me. 

She wisely backed off and brought him another dinner.

Thomas Maddux

George apparently had all his workers convicnced that it was O.K for him to be crass and unmannerly because he was "the Lord's servant". I understand that he even gave himself the sobriquet of "Jacob the worm"
This was abolutely brilliant. He could get away with anything if you bought that notion.
I must say my own experience in this regard was very differnt.
The Lord made it clear to me that the standard for me was higher.
I not only assumed this to be the case, I assumed it to be true for the men I served with.
While we cannot expect our leaders to be perfect, it is critical that they have integrity.
It is clear to me that the folk I have most strongly disagreed with on the matter of George and the assemblies do not know the difference.


How true! His mercy does indeed endure forever. He is also faithful.
If we observe a situation of presistent and undealt-with sin either in our lives, or the lives of others, we should have ample reason to question the presence of God in that situation.

Verne

Got that right.  ;)

Yeah. Integrity.

A friend of mine told of an incident where the most holy GG told a whopper to get a seat by the window in a local restaurant. It seems like a small thing, although we both wondered at it,  but time after time it paints a picture.

According to my "source", not only did he attend a seminar in San Francisco over Memorial Day Weekend, but he is going camping with about 40 others at Big Sur over the Fourth of July. Knowing him as well as I do, and not being real sure that he has 40 friends to go camping with, is he describing an Assembly seminar disguised as a camping trip? I didn't ask for more details.

So . . . why do the angels care if we wear head coverings or not, prithee?

   A great miriad (thousands) of angels looks down upon the gathering of saints and marvels that the women's heads are covered. The book of Corinthian's instructs that women are to cover their hair when they pray. This is-because the "glory" of women is their hair! This "glory" is not good because it is interfeering with the "glory of God!" Therefore the women must cover their glory! This will allow the women to be expressing the "glory of God!" This will allow  God to get the glory! Not the women! So that "In all things He (God) must have the preeminence!" Yet you ask, "Those head coverings are only veils?  They don't cover the hair! only veil it? This is because the 'head covering" is only symbolic. It symbolizes the fact that Christ is the head of the church and that the husband is the head of the wife. In other words nighty I need a symbol that demonstrates my controle over my wife. Yet it is not 'me" in "controle" but Christ!  Therefore "wife" is not my victim but Christ is responsible!  My opinion about this scripture is that it is a primitive riitual that has been carried on into Christianity in our generation. It is only recently not been practiced by the majority of the church. Most evangelicals will dance around these scriptures because they are not acceptable by todays standards! (You just watch/read!) Night Owl?  Where have you been?? You didn't know about head coverings?

No. Trust me, I knew. But I had only heard the part about women needing to cover their heads to show submission. I hadn't heard the part about the angels.

1 Corinthians 11:10 - Not really sure what Paul was getting at here.  George saw in this verse an inverted triangle.  All the angel's attention is focused and concentrated on the Assembly meeting when the Saints gather.  The order expressed in women covering their head teaches them something.  It would have to be a "gather as as Assembly" meeting, not a "community outreach" meeting - which explains why sisters didn't wear headcoverings during the Wednesday night Bible study or at campus prayer meetings.

I think that interpretation is assuming much that isn't there.  But most folks who see headcoverings as simply a local issue to Corinth (most Evangelicals) puzzle over this verse if they consider the question at all.

Dave -most evangelicals in this generation. Yet in the past headcoverings were as common as burkas!  Ooops!

True.  I wonder if headcovering going out of favor had anything to do with hats going out of style.

You hit that right!  Have you seen the movie, "A Man Called Peter"? Even the "Chariots of Fire" Church scenes are filled with hats!

I heard somewhere that the culture of Paul's day dictated that if you were a woman and you weren't wearing a head covering in public, that meant you were a prostitute. So women were encouraged to wear head coverings when they gathered to show they weren't harlots. But I've never done a study on it.

You would probably find that if you went into a Christian bookstore and looked up that passage.   In the non-headcovering Evangelical churches I have been in (if they deal with the passage at all) the teaching is generally explained in terms of a problem in Paul's day:  The temple prostitutes (pagan religions tended to mix spirituality with sex - at least the Da Vinci code got one thing right!) were noted for the lack of proper covering for their head.  Apparently this "style" was branching out and becoming chic.  Paul was attempting to have the church be distinct in this area and make sure that these saved former pagans would not be confused with those still in the old lifestyle. 

You might want to look this up in a commentary by a learned teacher as it is very possible my middle-aged poor memory got some facts mixed up.

Obviously, there are groups like the Plymouth Brethren and others who disagree with this interpretation and see it as a mandate for all churches at all times.  They might argue that the "because of the angels" verse implies a larger scope than simply a local incident.  Unfortunately, it is not very clear to us today exactly what Paul was getting at when he said "because of the angels".