New Law, New Kingdom for the Overcomer

[Sondra Jamison]

Hi Verne,

Thanks for explaining your comment.  I think I am a bit "gunshy" on that subject.  I appreciate your courtesy toward me too. 

I won't quote your last two posts so as not to run over in this one, but much of what you said in them I am speaking to in this new thread.  I am starting a new thread because I didn't want to pull Chuck's query into a different direction.

To all - in order to understand where I am coming from in this post, one should take a glimpse of what I have covered on “Overcomer” in at least my last two posts.

http://www.soaringwiththeeagles.com/yabbse/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=437;start=msg2008#msg2008

Legalism always tries to "dumb sin down" to a list of prohibited observable actions.  Then the legalist can just keep the rules on his list and imagine he is ok, (and usually that everyone else is not ok).  But this is a delusion.  God's standard is his holiness.  So unless you know someone who walks in the holiness of God 24/7/365 for his entire Christian life, the "overcomer" kingdom will be empty of inhabitants.  The idea that we can recover our standing by confession of sin doesn't work.  One little shred of forgetfulness.....and bye bye kingdom.

Again, the word “confession” in scripture is not the enumeration of sins as represented in the above paragraph. 

The Overcomer has entered a new life in a new sphere according to new law.  Over time the believer fights that which is in opposition to the Will of God within him – sin that is produced through his sin/old nature.  Eventually, the balance of power tips.  The old regime has experienced such defeat that the new king can come into his temple, as David did.

David is a type of the new spiritual man.  His son, Soloman is a type of the next generation that actually builds the house of God, (another type for another level of the same kingdom, a spiritual one).

Legalism is what man is born in and remains in until God leads the legalist to full repentance.  The first turn to Christ is not full repentance, of course.  It takes some time for the disciple to come into brokenness through trials and tribulation, inner fightings and grappling with issues, success/failure, wins/losses.  The forty days of trials and tribulations of the Lord signify a “trial” period which is carefully and lovingly directed by heavenly administrators that will bring the believer into full repentance….if he will continue to the end and see it through.  The wilderness experience is a long one for some who are not diligent, etc.  Either way, diligent or not, it is painful and confusing.  This period is the dark night of faith where the believer is walking in darkness (lack of understanding).

Rom 8:2
2   For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.  (KJV)

There is a time when the scales tip from diligent fighting within the inner kingdom of the believer’s soul IF….if he is diligent to pursue godliness and holiness.  If he is diligent (not perfect), diligent to pursue the will of God to the defeat of his own will that has been fought daily.  The war gets won, but battles will continue in the new kingdom, but the warfare is fought differently.  New law requires new insights. 

Romans 8:2 shows a whole new LAW for the new kingdom that has defeated the old LAW of sin and death.  But it has to actualize in the believer through the cooperation of the believer with God over time.

This is one who has overcome sin and death.  Yes, he is still and sinner and will continue to learn to obey his God.  But something has been forever defeated and destroyed and newness of life has been opened that gives new authority and power.

The fruit of the Overcomer of Revelation is not based upon natural “gift” as we are so used to being told.  The true fruit or evidence that Verne eludes to is for God and unto God and for the believer.  The overflow to the world may not be as one would think in terms of public notoriety.

The kingdom within becomes bigger than that which is going on in the exterior in one who has come into his kingdom.  “The soul doth magnify the Lord” before the Lord.

The spiritual kingdom is for spiritually dominated people.  There is a graduation day, but it is not necessarily after life in this physical body. 

Sondra

[Sondra Jamison]

I realized that I need to maintain the balance of Good Works while speaking of Repentance so I included the following quote.  Good works are works that are done IN the Love of God - loving His will and His ways.  Fighting sin within must be done in cooperation with the Holy Spirit IN LOVE.  This is the work of God....even your faith.  Faith produces dead works if Faith is not fired by the Love of God.

The greatest discord among believers is in the area of faith and works.  Those who separate the life of love, which is good works, from faith, and make faith alone justifying and saving, take away everything of justification and salvation from the life of love or from good works.

As loving and doing are mentioned in the Word in a thousand passages, it is clear that man is to be judged according to his deeds and works. "Faith alone" proponents do not agree and therefore works is dead to them who are not following the law of Love. Often it is visible who is of which school of thought by their works.  Those who rest in "faith alone" are often overly secure in their intellectual strength to trust in their faith.  Lacking understanding of the deeper origins of faith, which is God's love, doctrines are designed by natural intellect that promote "faith alone."

Also, the following scripture helps doubters of the coming of a present spiritual kingdom, a new Overcoming man, to see an important fact....it is not with fanfare that it comes into a life.  Often the believer isn't aware of the change in a single day, week or month.  Nevertheless, the heavens are rolled up as a scroll and the corruptible puts on incorruptibility.

Luke 17:20
20   And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
(KJV)

OBSERVATION, OBSERVE

   A. Noun.
   parateresis ^3907^, "attentive watching" (akin to paratereo, "to observe"), is used in <Luke 17:20>, of the manner in which the kingdom of God (i. e., the operation of the spiritual kingdom in the hearts of men) does not come, "in such a manner that it can be watched with the eyes" (Grimm-Thayer), or, as KJV marg., "with outward show."
(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words)
(Copyright (C) 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)

Sondra

[brian]

sondra,

you have started making a habit of linking to your own bb as part of an ongoing discussion, making most of your points there and expecting people to visit your bb in order to have a meaningful discussion with you here. if you want to have discussions with others here on this bb, then please keep the entire discussion on this bb. thanks!

brian

[Sondra Jamison]

Brian,

sondra,

you have started making a habit of linking to your own bb as part of an ongoing discussion, making most of your points there and expecting people to visit your bb in order to have a meaningful discussion with you here. if you want to have discussions with others here on this bb, then please keep the entire discussion on this bb. thanks!

brian

I quote part of the PM you sent when you suspended me. 

.......you get so into the points you are making that you get carried away....totally dominating the board with the sheer volume of posting you are capable of on some days.....

brian

I guess you would like me to just go away - is what this is all boiling down to?  Some who are afraid to say it openly have emailed and have let me know that they enjoy my insights and participation on AB. 

I have posted now and again, but sparingly, so as not to "dominate by volume."   If I do posts that are the same length and frequency as that which some that the men have shared I get corrected for "dominating through volume."  I don't call anyone idiot, demon possessed, etc. but I get kicked off for "personal attack."     

I am not advertising my board since we basiclly have the same readership as far as I can tell although SWTE is not read as often because the posting volume is much smaller than AB.  The reason I share the link is to direct to a specific point that I have written at length on - on SWTE and again, so as to limit the volume of my posts.  I started my own thread so as to not bother those who were discussing this subject on "Forive and Forget" thread. 

I also share the link to give everyone the opportunity to read or not to read as was suggested some time back. 

I have not been forceful, yet now, I am criticized for yet another violation on a technicality from a mystical rule book that is authored moment by moment.

How am I expected to get the perfect balance for you, Brian?  Can you honestly say that you are requiring the same perfect balance from others or would you say that you are being a bit selective and prejudicial?

Sondra

[vernecarty]

Brian,



I guess you would like me to just go away - is what this is all boiling down to? 
Sondra

Has anyone ever told you that you can be really sensitive sometimes?   
Brain said nothing of the sort and in fact implied the opposite.
He is just saying to post rather than link, I think...

David is a type of the new spiritual man.  His son, Soloman is a type of the next generation that actually builds the house of God, (another type for another level of the same kingdom, a spiritual one).


Sondra

I am very fond of Biblical typology but I think it is very limited as teaching tool and I will tell you why.
Until God had actually worked out some of these issues in my life, types were nothing more than interesting abstracts.
Typology takes on real power and meaning only as they find reference in the spiritual experience of the one who considers them. Absent that, you will get only blank stares.
Whether you are talking about the seven days or the seven lives of Genesis, the progress of God's redemptive work varies with regard to stage, in each vessel. This realisation has radically changed the way I think about God's work in my own life, and in the lives of others. Just a thought...

Verne

[Sondra Jamison]

I am truly sorry if I am over reacting to Brian's post regarding links, Verne.  It just seems that just when I really get interested in a topic on AB - someone comes in and diverts the whole topic with cynicism, unbelief, etc.  I believe it is jealousy over the things of God that I feel.  Chuck is right.  These things aren't about who is right and who is wrong.  We are all trying to understand and unfold the rose petal by petal. 

Yes, I am frustrated.  Ever see a dog that is chained to a clothes line when he isn't quite sure how long his chain is and starts running after a chicken?    

I want to respond to your's and Joe's posts, but I have started my Thanksgiving cooking.

Frustrated sister in Christ,
Sondra 

[vernecarty]

I am truly sorry if I am over reacting to Brian's post regarding links, Verne.  It just seems that just when I really get interested in a topic on AB - someone comes in and diverts the whole topic with cynicism, unbelief, etc.  I believe it is jealousy over the things of God that I feel.  Chuck is right.  These things aren't about who is right and who is wrong.  We are all trying to understand and unfold the rose petal by petal. 

Yes, I am frustrated.  Ever see a dog that is chained to a clothes line when he isn't quite sure how long his chain is and starts running after a chicken?    

I want to respond to your's and Joe's posts, but I have started my Thanksgiving cooking.

Frustrated sister in Christ,
Sondra 

What's in the pot?
I am in charge of smoking (no Cuban cigar jokes) the turkey for our gathering...
Verne

[al Hartman]

What's in the pot?
I am in charge of smoking (no Cuban cigar jokes) the turkey for our gathering...
Verne

Verne, when you say: 

What's in the pot?
I am in charge of smoking...

...the jokes that come to mind have more to do with Colombian agri-product than with Cuban...

al

[Sondra Jamison]

Joe, Verne, Marcia, and All,

As we are having our Turkey and trimmings (traditional) today, I won’t have much time, but I wrote this to answer Joe’s question re. WHAT is the inheritance.  I think if we know what it is, it helps to speculate better on the other questions.  I am in no way implying that this is the last answer on the subject, but just a few quick observations.

 Tom is right in a sense when he speaks of all of God’s people being included in the inheritance.  All of God’s people ARE THE INHERITANCE of God.  God’s people (Israel) are GOD’S INHERITANCE.  Backing up a bit and looking at the bigger picture of inheritance, I believe helps to clarify that the inheritance is not things. 

God’s people and their placement in the Body of Christ is forever in movement according to perfected love.  We all know that even great faith so as to accomplish great kingdom feats is altogether inferior to perfected Love in God.  Since Luther, faith has been promoted (to convert people from Catholicism).  1Cor 13 puts it back into balance.  Love is the supreme value that must be formed and perfected in the soul.

Now, in inheriting Christ, who is the Head of the Body, those who Overcome, from my understanding, are in the Head.  The Head is the Anointed One over His church, the Body. 

Are all in the Head?  No.  But those who are in the Head, (Christ) are going to reign with Him, both here and there.

Will all of God’s people be in the kingdom?  Of course, but all will not reign in the kingdom.  Only those who have OVERCOME will reign because only those are qualified.

The inheritance is a spiritual inheritance.  God’s people inherit in Christ as they are placed in the Body and that according to many things.  Gifts, Function (service), Likeness/similarity to others.  Obviously, Christ is the Head and all who are directly functioning out of the Head are those who are “in the Head, Christ.”  So, really, proximity is important. 

Verne is very correct in that the inheritance has to do with relationship and that is a relationship of LOVE.  The Word is full of “love talk” from the Savior.  He hinges an awful lot on Love.  IF YOU LOVE ME…..

Inner reality, love and good works (not physical necessarily) – everything that is done in love is a “good work” and produces growth of Christ in the life.

So in a sense all believers who are true and have pursued perfected love through good works will inherit in the Body, but only those who have Overcome sin and death, those who walk consistently, habitually in the Spirit - will be in the Head (authority).  These will share the administrative places with Christ - administration throughout the rest of the Body.  These are the Wise ones who have spiritual understanding.  This makes them able to do His bidding because they know the Mind of the Head.   

Sondra

[brian]

I have not been forceful, yet now, I am criticized for yet another violation on a technicality from a mystical rule book that is authored moment by moment.

i can understand why this would be frustrating for you. but the main reason you get hit by 'rules' that others don't is because you do things that others don't. i would never have thought to build into the user agreement a clause along the lines of "If you get angry about Matt getting banned and go start your own bb in response and then later want to come back and become a regular poster on this board again but you still want to keep most of your posts on your board and just link to them from this board, then you can't." i mean, i think i am being pretty lenient overall, considering that for the past (how long has it been? two years?) you have been quoting people from this board on your board against their will for the sole purpose of shredding what they have to say and who they are as a person, and encourging matt to do the same in his much more juvenile and vicious way. so the most generous compromise i can come up with is to let you participate here as long as you don't get carried away, and thats all. i hope this makes more sense to you now. i am treating you the exact same as i treat everyone else who has started their own bb that is full of posts that make fun of, criticize, and generally attack most of the people here.

and your thanksgiving dinner sounds delicious! i can almost smell the warm flavors mixing in the air. happy thanksgiving to you and yours

brian

[Elizabeth H]

It just seems that just when I really get interested in a topic on AB - someone comes in and diverts the whole topic with cynicism, unbelief, etc.  I believe it is jealousy over the things of God that I feel. 

This is a public forum. Posters divert topics, cynicism & unbelief are par for the course.

 

[Sondra Jamison]

i can understand why this would be frustrating for you. but the main reason you get hit by 'rules' that others don't is because you do things that others don't. i would never have thought to build into the user agreement a clause along the lines of "If you get angry about Matt getting banned and go start your own bb in response and then later want to come back and become a regular poster on this board again but you still want to keep most of your posts on your board and just link to them from this board, then you can't." i mean, i think i am being pretty lenient overall, considering that for the past (how long has it been? two years?) you have been quoting people from this board on your board against their will for the sole purpose of shredding what they have to say and who they are as a person, and encourging matt to do the same in his much more juvenile and vicious way. so the most generous compromise i can come up with is to let you participate here as long as you don't get carried away, and thats all. i hope this makes more sense to you now. i am treating you the exact same as i treat everyone else who has started their own bb that is full of posts that make fun of, criticize, and generally attack most of the people here.

and your thanksgiving dinner sounds delicious! i can almost smell the warm flavors mixing in the air. happy thanksgiving to you and yours

brian

Brian,

You certainly put a negative spin on why I started SWTE.  I was not angry and I am not currently angry.  I disagreed with the perspective on the AB, but was not free to say so without a firestorm of ridicule and heavy handed treatment.  I have enjoyed writing articles on my board as well as commenting on AB topics from a distance.  Yes, how could you possibly have a set of rules that everyone could read and know as parameters when you go into such petty, purely speculative reasoning for corrections.  You really make my point.  How could you possibly write a set of rules that would cover such petty circumstances based upon competition and emotions? 

Most newspapers rebut one another's articles and opinions every day.  I haven't noticed one expressing feelings of being threatened by another's criticism or disagreement of a view.  I just cannot get on that level either.  I don't understand that idea of competition between two very small, rather insignificant BB's.  I came across a Chrisitan board the other day where 135 or so members were on line at the time.  That really put things into perspective for me.  I really love using SWTE for writing my own views and insights on topics and so if you are bothered by our little board I feel sorry that you could be troubled by such a small, petty thing.   

Your posts reflect a generally petty, negative perspective.  I am the one who is out of place here.  My heart's peace is too important.     

Sondra

[brian]

You certainly put a negative spin on why I started SWTE. I was not angry and I am not currently angry. I disagreed with the perspective on the AB, but was not free to say so without a firestorm of ridicule and heavy handed treatment. I have enjoyed writing articles on my board as well as commenting on AB topics from a distance. Yes, how could you possibly have a set of rules that everyone could read and know as parameters when you go into such petty, purely speculative reasoning for corrections. You really make my point. How could you possibly write a set of rules that would cover such petty circumstances based upon competition and emotions?

my response was overly negative, you're right, and i apologize for that. i shouldn't have gotten so negative and emotional while moderating. my basic point got clouded as a result. i was trying to say that noone has ever tried to conduct a discussion on here by putting their responses on another board and linking to it.

but its a fact that many of the posts on your board are exactly as i have described, as i am sure you must be aware. how can you talk about people the way you do on there and then be surprised when people react to it negatively? most of the people you guys quote and criticize never gave their permission to be quoted and many of the criticisms are not just of what the person said, but are personal attacks that have often gotten bitterly vicious.

but i meant what i said about thanksgiving. i don't have animosity towards you.

brian