Now what to do?

[4Him]

tom,
...
all i can say again is you guys, in my humble opinion ought to lighten up a bit.  i am glad you are now asking some questions instead of doing the equivilant  of yelling "fire" in a crowded theatre - or in this case a hospital.   i thnk it's good to ask ?'s first instead of coming out with witness lee and eastern religion accusations.  it's true, it is an open forum, but people will leave by the droves if they can't read things with encouragement and courteous conversation.
...

Excellent comment affirming!  I come here for encouragement and maybe a few chuckles.  I have not been disappointed but I do tire of tirades.  It's obvious that many have been wounded but we need to find His grace as sufficient for all our need and eventually let go of the need to vent and blame and accuse.  Life/fellow man is not fair but "turn your eyes upon Jesus" and find that he is, emminently!  He is able to satisfy all your need.  Maybe believing that is beyond you, but it's not beyond Him!

...but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. Gal 2:20b

Tim

[al Hartman]

 
QUOTE:

     "It's obvious that many have been wounded but we need to find His grace as sufficient for all our need and eventually let go of the need to vent and blame and accuse.  Life/fellow man is not fair but "turn your eyes upon Jesus" and find that he is, emminently!  He is able to satisfy all your need.  Maybe believing that is beyond you, but it's not beyond Him!"
                               -- Tim Souther



     Amen, Brother Tim S.--  Well said!!!

al

[outdeep]

Most of us agree that something was wrong with the Assembly, so we left.

However, we take with us much baggage.

We still tend to use clichés and loaded language when we speak of spiritual things.

We still tend to use a mystical approach to God's word and think spiritual truth is obtained through an existential, unexplainable higher knowledge instead of learned objectively (in the same manner we learn about physics or cake decorating).

We still tend to allegorize Bible passages looking for hidden meanings instead of giving deference to the different genres of the Bible.

Challenging this kind of practice is just as important as challenging where the Assembly money goes on Sunday morning.

In the book “Writing to Learn” by William Zinsser, the author attempts to answer the age old question, “Why Can’t Johnny Write?”  The answer is “Johnny can’t write because Johnny was never taught to reason.”  This doesn’t mean that Johnny is dumb.  It means that Johnny never learned to question the meaning of his own words and ask whether or not it has anything to do with the argument at hand.  He writes from his gut, stringing together phrases he has picked up along the way.  He never questions, “What will my audience understand this to mean?”

Asking whether or not “reckoning faith” is a special kind of faith or simply a redundant phrase is a legitimate question.  One is not going on a tirade for asking it.  Questioning whether or not we receive spiritual knowledge through objective means or through a special dispensation of a divine, subjective, mechanism is a very basic question that impacts how we read our Bibles.

Please don’t look for ill will where there isn’t any.  Please don’t say, “Just give me Jesus” when someone simply makes a query or questions what someone means by what he wrote.  I have sat through too many seminars saying “Amen” every 20 seconds to whatever lofty phrase was strewn before me.  I don’t want to go back to a world where only the emotional heart is engaged, but not the reasoning brain.

[al Hartman]

Dear Ones,

     The ability to reason, or "reckon" is a gift from God, and he expects us to exercise it as fully as we are able.  Of course, that ability varies from person to person, but he doesn't hold me to your standard or you to mine.  He just wants us to wholeheartedly apply his gifts to the task at hand.

     It is because of our varied capacities to think and draw conclusions that he has given us his Holy Spirit.  He doesn't want us just to say, "Well, i've got Jesus," and abandon rational thought.  But, if we do not trust in the Lord with all our hearts, and we lean wholly instead upon our own understanding, then we quite literally haven't got a prayer.

[Mark C.]

My good Friends!
  I'm sorry that I post and seem to stir up a great controversy and then am silent, but I'm usually travelling during the week (unfortunately not to Cozumel), and am unable to continue, or clarify the discussion.
  In the Assembly honest discussion was sometimes attacked as "divisive, of the Devil, mean spirited, et al."  When ever issues were raised re. teaching and practices one was accused of "railing"; in other words, attacking the person/ministry.
   Dealing with recovery issues concerning abusive groups is very similar to dealing with recovery issues concerning a drug addict (see "The Subtle Power Of Spiritual Abuse" by David Johnson and Jeff Van Vonderan--- Pulished by Bethany House).  It is similar in that honesty is the difference between life and death!  Being candid is not being mean, it is the flip side of the coin of which is also found love.  Indifference to truth is not forgiveness, it is a careless disregard for the recovery of individuals who have been lying to themselves for years!
   It is also true that the addict will get angry when you try to confront them honestly regarding their behavior and attitudes.  It takes patience and real love to not take the angry response personally, but to continue to try and get the addict to a place of honesty.
   The recovering Assembly member will sometimes use all the defensive mechanisms at their disposal to prevent the honest evaluation of their involvement.  The reason for this is obvious.     It is very painful to admit that:
   1.) I was deceived about a great many things.
   2.) I was emotionally dependant on the group.
   3.) I willinginly gave up my liberty in Christ.
   4.) I contributed to an abusive system.

   To consider these above things is not "a heavy handed approach" but the only road to true healing and as such a very loving approach.
   In recovery the counselor is sometimes attacked as being "cruel" for insisting that the counselee be honest.  
    Jesus has been knocking at the door of the Assembly for many long years seeking to enter into communion with those inside.  Notice the list of things the church of Laodicea was required to avail themselves of to achieve the blessing of God.  The list shows that the church considered that their condition was good, while the Lord said they were in desperate need of an honest assesment of their condition.  He ends his entreaty, "Whom I love, I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent."
   I have the greatest love and concern for my dear brethren who are coming out of the Assembly and pray earnestly for God's richest blessing for them.  If we try to establish a "no-talk-rule" where we never confront certain issues we are not doing our good friends any favors.
   To say that only God can address these things is an easy way for us to escape our responsibility to love our brother.  We are to follow the example of our Lord by speaking the truth in love.  We may be upbraided for pointing out errors, but unlike the Assembly, it is not to attack the individual person and shame them, but that through honest assesment we can come to experience His wonderful grace!
                         May God bless us Good!   Mark

[al Hartman]

     Folks, i may have muddied up the waters here, so let me set the record straight regarding my position:

     i have never and will never endorse a "no talk" concept.  Everyone who loves the Lord or seeks him is invited to post here, and to speak freely.  If anything i have posted has led you to believe otherwise, i apologize for being unclear or insensitive.  Please, post here without fear.

     i am not a teacher.  My posts are from my heart, and i pray before, during and after posting that the Lord is being served, and his people being blessed by this BB.  This kind of praying is not a magic talisman that makes whatever i say all right-- it is my earnest seeking to post what i should and not post what i should not.  Being yet fallible, i am not beyond posting in error, in spite of all my praying.  But i can tell you that when i am writing for the BB and a doubt enters my mind regarding my words or my motive in writing them, and that doubt continues in spite of my increased praying, i delete the whole thing and either start over or simply don't post.

     There are teachers who post here.  i have personally criticized Mark Campbell and Tom Maddux for what i called a "heavy handed" approach in their responses to the posts of others.  But i have NOT criticized their teachings.  There is NOTHING either of these brothers could say to me that i would not listen closely to, whether or not it was something i wanted to hear.  Tom and Mark are godly and good-hearted men who have all our best interests in mind when they post here.  If there is one of the three of us who is egocentric it is i, not either of them.
     For the record, i apologize for having cast any doubt upon either of these brothers' ministry.  That was not and is not my intent.  Pay close attention to what they tell us.  It has cost them a lot to be where they are today, and they speak to us as ministers of God.

[Mark C.]

Dear Al,
  I think everyone one can tell that you speak from your heart and that is very valuable indeed.  These blasted e-mail communications can be so cumbersome sometimes and we can easily develop misunderstandings.
  Thank you so much for your kind words, but calling me a teacher is a bit much.  I recently listened to a tape of the last time I spoke at the Assembly and the Lord spoke to me saying, "you are not a public speaker!"  I can agree with you re. Tom though, as he does have the ability to clearly express himself.
   I have always felt that the BB should be more like sitting around the campfire and just jawing.  I would invite those who may think that their opinion is not polished enough to join in and try a few lines.  It is good therapy to put your feeling into thought and we can help one another understand our Christian life a little better.
   I apologize for sounding like some kind of know-it-all, as everyone knows I'm just a Christian truck driver who was in the Assembly for 20 years.  We all have valuable insight to share here, regardless of our station in life, as God has gifted each in His church, and as such we are all necessary; you know, a foot, hand etc. (hopefully I will never act too much like the rear end.)
               God bless his people,   Mark
     
 

[al Hartman]

     We give clear communication our best shot, but we know there will be misunderstandings.  You try your hardest to express yourself lucidly, and i strain to grasp your meaning correctly, but, alas...  Our backgrounds and experiences differ, as do our IQs and vocabularies (you say po-TAY-toe, and i say po-TAH-toe...).  But you pray in your sending, and i pray in my receiving, and we both trust in God, who giveth the increase.

     We try to be scriptural in our assessments:  there is no mention in the bible of truck drivers, so Mark Campbell couldn't possibly be a teacher.  But what about Ezekiel's vision of a wheel turning within a wheel?  Doesn't that sound like a truck tire and the rim inside it?  So then maybe that means...

     Seriously, i didn't say Mark is or isn't a teacher.  What i said is that there are teachers posting here, and that i would pay serious attention to anything Mark said to me.
     Mark thinks he isn't a teacher because he doesn't like  the way he speaks publicly.  Personally, i have never heard ANY of the authors of the bible speak, but i have learned from EVERY one of them through their written teachings.  So i can't discredit the BB as a venue for teaching.  i think this BB can be as helpful as a lot of the books on the market, and a good bit moreso than some of them.

     Keep on reading, and feel free to jump in with a question or a comment, short or long.

...and keep looking UP!
bro. al

[al Hartman]

Tom,

     Ed has an excellent thought, there.  (He just gave us what could only be called a "Teune-up!)

     But maybe instead of exerpting from your notes, you could exerpt quotes from George's ministry as printed in the T&T, followed by exposition of (1.) George's stated error, and (2.) Your exposition of the truth of the matter.
     That way, there will be no question as to whether your notes correctly reflect George's statements.  All quotes of his in the T&T are verbatim from taped ministry.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Saints,

     What do you think?  Tom Maddux is eminently qualified to address GG's erroneous teachings.  He is a gifted teacher and he is honest.  If he deems himself NOT qualified to address a matter, he will tell us so.
     What did George say that is weighing heavily on you, about which you would appreciate some clarity?

     Speaking of clarity, let me make this clear:  i am NOT volunteering Tom's services!  i have ASKED him to consider the proposition stated above.  It would be very demanding in time and effort, and, unlike some we shan't name, Brother Tom holds down a full time job, as well as being a family man and active in his church.  But he also loves the Lord, and cares for his people, and would be my #1 pick on this BB to perform such a work.

bro. al

[moonflower]

I for one, am for it.  
Thanks

[garylwilson]

"But Lord, what about this man?" Jn 20:20b "What is that to you? You follow Me." Jn 20:22b

THE PURPOSE OF THIS POST: Is NOT to tell anyone what to think or what to do [ to continue in fellowship in one of the assemblies or to leave] .  It is simply to point to the ONE WHO CAN - JESUS CHRIST.

I am no longer a part of the FULLERTON fellowship, although I will from time to time attend a meeting.  Will I ever return - as in the sense - "committed to that place of fellowship", I don't know.

My purpose in posting this is to not give reasons, arguements, justifications, etc. for any of my actions.  It is merely to give a inward look into the heart of one who simply wants to follow the call of his Master.  It is my call and no others.

1)  A HEART'S REACTION:  Upon reading the initial posts, my heart was saddened, my pride crushed.  Looking back, I see how my hands reached out to try to take control.  Isn't that a laugh.    There were numerous reasons for me to continue on in Fullerton.  Was I walking with the Lord.  Absolutely.  Was my heart yeilded to Him.  Absolutely.  Was He speaking to me.  Absolutely.

2)  HIS call to Me: II Cor 3:15-18.  A turned heart - a removed veil.  I simply turned my heart and asked HIM what HE wanted for me and my wife Linda.  I stood upon those verses.  They have been my promise for clear direction [ for  me ].

3)  A Six Week Journey:  Everyday has been new.  Everyday I have been seeing Christ in new ways.  Passage upon passage from God's word has strengthend, encouraged, convicted me and brought great comfort to my soul.  I feel as if I have launched out into a new a wonderful journey.  I have no idea of the destination nor the pathway but I know He is over all.  I know HE indwells me.  I know I am in HIM.  What more could I ask for.  It is a journey of fellowship with my Lord.  

4)  A wonderful Separation:  What is so wonderful about this journey is that I sense day be day that He is separating me from that which I had my hands upon unto Himself.  I feel so disconnected to that which seemed so important just weeks ago [ I speak in a subjective sense ].
None of this happened through any self effort.  It is his work.  It is His separation.  See Gal 1, Rom 6.
I no longer have to control or be concerned of the outcome of Fulleron .  If I do return, it will be in complete liberty.

5)  To the abused, down trodden and anyone within the assemblies or without.  If what was happened still drives you [ controls you ],  God can and wants to get separation in our lives.  I can not and will not tell anyone what to specifically do.  But I will venture to say this.  There is available for all - COMPLETE FREEDOM. Freedom from the pain and freedom from the past
It is not in the selfer's prayer, not in the wheel and the line, nor any other tool that one may take and methodize.
It is not outside of you.  You need not go anywhere to find it.  It is dwelling deep within you inward parts "Rom 10:6-13."
We all missed so much because we thought we could achieve things through self-effort.  It is ALL His work.  He has seperated us to Himself and only the Holy Spirit can bring us to the subjective knowledge of it.  The wonderful thing is that He delights to do this.  Romans 3-5 all speak of what He has done.  It is all ours by new birth. Grace, grace, grace, grace,  grace.

Concluding thought.  Wherever your place of fellowship, wherever you are with the Saviour - you are His - and we are brethern.  I wish you all the best.  My prayer for all of us is that in the final analysis may we know "fellowship with Him."  God bless each and everyone of you as you seek to know Him and follow Him.


P.S
   There are 2 brothers from Hong Kong [ I believe ].  There will some meetings in Fullerton this week with them.  I will attend [casual observor].  This is a learning exercise.  
I have gone to another place on Sundays.  Next week I will visit a couple of their other meetings.  Please pray for me.  Is this the next stop on the journey?  Last Sunday did bless my heart.

Lord bless

[4Him]

Tom,
     Ed has an excellent thought, there.  (He just gave us what could only be called a "Teune-up!)
...
bro. al

Not to detract from either Al's or (just previous to this) Gary's excellent posts but actually, Al, it would be a "Teun-e up.  
Right Ed & Kathy?

(PS - No time right now, but I hope to comment on Gary's post later, which contains some excellent insights.)