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Author Topic: Re: WOUNDED PILGRIMS  (Read 6430 times)
Mark C.
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« on: February 28, 2005, 02:18:11 am »

Mark,

Once again, I pose a contrast to your thoughts, not in opposition to them, but to illustrate how different our experiences, the effects of the assembly upon us, have been.  All the wounded pilgrims out there are not just like you or me, but are individuals every one.  So if someone is reading this thread and thinking that solutions are being offered here that don't apply to them, I hope they will take heart and realize that God sees them as they really are, and not as you or I may perceive them to be (i.e., like ourselves), and that they will post their questions, or e-mail them to us, but above all, not be discouraged because they don't "get" what you or I are saying...

We all sat under essentially the same teachings, restrictions and controls, and we were all wounded thereby, but in varying degrees and not all with the same effects.  We were not all alike when we entered the assembly, being of different backgrounds, temperaments, etc., we did not all stay for the same length of time, we were not all treated alike, and we were not all in the same state of mind and heart when we left.
In Christ,
al  
Quote



 Thanks Al,

  All very true!   This is why a monolouge of my views on this thread will only have lilmited value.  I share my personal story because a picture is sometimes worth a thousand pages of theoretical analysis.

  My experience on BB's with former cult/abusive church members has convinced me that bad religion hurts the souls of it's members.  Jesus said of the Pharisees that they were "a den of vipers", and again this was more than just Jesus trying to say something mean to them; he was identifying the character of their teaching and practices in such a way that declared they poisoned those under their authority.

  Now, some may have been poisoned worse than others, but all were bitten.  The mortality rate of snake bite victims will be higher among the weaker (elderly and young) and also how quickly they receive treatment for recovery will make a difference in their healing time.

  Likewise, those more sensitive and needy will have worse reactions.  It is obvious that the bitten party should avoid snake pits in the future.  Part of what we do here is to warn re. what is toxic faith, and to advise to avoid it; and this will be necessary no matter what our individual pre-conditions.  Also, an integral part on this thread is to help to develop a healthy Christian life that is blessed vs. sick.

  You and I Al left before the great collaspe, and as such had to deal with the possibility that the Assembly was right and we were wrong.  In your case, you were certain that you were wrong.  

   Those leaving after toto pulled the curtain back had the advantage of seeing behind the false images GG displayed.  They also had the support of the web site and this BB.

   Some still fail to acknowledge the GG sham, and admit their abusive part in the group, and for these (who probably will never read here) their pride will prevent them from admitting to the obvious.  But, aside from this group, we can generalize that we all can benefit from some kind of treatment for bad religious poisoning.

  The book, "Healing For Damaged Emotions" by David A. Seamands was written by a Christian Evangelical who was at one time a missionary to India.

  It says on the book Jacket of another one of his books ("The Perfromance Trap":

    "Many truly reborn Christians are troubled emotionally and spiritually.  Deeply committed to Christ, they read the Bible, pray, give and witness to their faith.  Some of them are involved in Christian service.  Yet, when they are honest about their feelings, they admit to being defeated and sometimes even disillusioned.
    ----------------- For God's healing grace reaches into people's thoughts, feelings, behavior, and above all, into their relationships, self-concepts and their fellowship with the loving Heavenly Father."


  Now, Mr. Seamands was not counseling former cult members, just regular old church members, and yet discovered a tremendous need to go beyond just preaching from the pulpit to address inner needs of those who came to him for advice.

  Notice that "healing greace reaches" beyond just "thoughts" and deals with emotions, actions, "and above all" into "their relationships, self-concepts, and their fellowship with the loving Heavenly Father."

   "Self-concepts" will sound a bit like pop-psychology to some, and this term that deals with how we view ourselves, can be misused.  We can, by altering the words of this phrase, avoid the false application and find that God does indeed want us to have a good concept of self.  Change the phrase to "how God thinks of me" and we can avoid the problems with "self concepts."

     A false view of God will lead to a false view of self.  Religious deception not only twists our understanding of who God is it does a considerable amount of twisting with our own psyche.  

    By believing that God has set a great value on me personally I have discovered what it means that God loves me.  God himself came to demonstrate that love for me personally.  This one time act has established a permanent relationship where I am called "beloved of God" !

  When we adjust our view of God upon leaving the Assembly to one where we relate to God by grace this understanding needs to "reach into" the rest of our being as well.

  Emotional habits form deep channels in our personality which just naturally cause us to act in certain ways.  Most of what we do is not based on rational thought, but habits formed via our lifestyle.

   The older we get the more automatic these reactions become, and as a result change becomes very difficult.  After decades in the Assembly we have devloped similarly many automatic reactions to certain situations.  

  These would include:

1.) Dishonesty:  (Often loud) protestations re. the purity of our own inner life against the facts of our own struggles with sin.  This is a self defense mechanism that becomes ingrained to the point that we actually believe the lie ourselves (as in GG).

2.) Self loathing: Now, we may know better, but it is such an automatic reaction to daily frustrations/failures that we immediately start to beat ourselves up over a situation.  We expect more of ourselves, and when we can't live up to it we become discouraged. (I battle this on a daily basis)  I will get into things that might help later.

3.) Difficulty with authority:   When we discover that those who told us that they represented God, and we believed and submitted to it, were charlatans and used us, this creates a huge amount of anger against authority, even legitimate.  "Never again" becomes our motto and when we sense someone trying to "tell us what to do" the reaction can be immediate--- and fierce!  Again, if we think about it, the reaction is often unreasonable, but it has a force all it's own that may express itself before the mind kicks in.

4.) Difficulty with relationships:  Wives of former leaders, not wanting to be doormats for their husbands anymore, and the husbands looking for the same kind of respect they received while in the group from others is one example of this malady.
 Many in the group had their egos deeply tied to their standing in the group and at it's demise they were left out in the cold, so to speak.  To just sit in a church pew with a bunch of "regular believers" and be viewed as just a "regular believer" is more than some can take.  Again, I may know better in my thinking, but my emotional state overpowers what I now know to be true.
   Certain former members I know have left church services screaming inside over just the reading of certain passages, like Acts.2 (the anchors) because it triggered an emotional automatic response! Cry

  You can no doubt think of others, but all of these require time and work to overcome.  The easy part is the correct thinking and the hard part is inculcating these views into our Christian life.  It will be more difficult for some than others, and each individual will have his particular achilles heel----deep wounding will require deep healing.

  It would be great if we could just set our minds via our regenerated wills and our emotions would follow along in a docile fashion, but for the few of us who do not possess this extraordinary ability we may need some help Wink.

    I will try to address "the filling of the Spirit" that Al took a particular interest in upon my next post.

                                                    God Bless,  Mark C.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2005, 02:30:27 am by Mark C. » Logged
Mark C.
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« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2005, 02:28:12 am »

All thumbs Mark C here!

  I can't seem to get the quote thing right on my post and would appreciate any advice for putting Al's comments in quotes and taking mine out of them.  Tried modifying it several times without success.

  This is an example of frustrating emotions wanting to kick in and cause me to toss the computer out the window, but I'm fighting it off successfully for the moment Wink!

                                         God Bless,  Mark C.
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sfortescue
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« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2005, 05:59:18 am »

All thumbs Mark C here!

  I can't seem to get the quote thing right on my post and would appreciate any advice for putting Al's comments in quotes and taking mine out of them.  Tried modifying it several times without success.

  This is an example of frustrating emotions wanting to kick in and cause me to toss the computer out the window, but I'm fighting it off successfully for the moment Wink!

                                         God Bless,  Mark C.

For long posts, it is best to compose them using Notepad, and save the file locally on your own computer, and then copy and paste it to the BB.

If you still have the file saved on your own computer, you can fix it and post it again.  The extra defective post can then simply be deleted.

Alternatively, click the "Modify" button to fix it.

Parts in quote boxes should begin with [quote], and end with [/quote].

For the post in question, [quote] should be at the beginning of the post, and [/quote] should be between Al's words and your own.  Delete the [/quote] that might be at the end of the post.


For some reason your latest 2 posts showed up in a new thread.  You should probably repost them in the correct thread, and then delete the misplaced posts.

To do this, click "Modify", then copy and paste to Notepad, then back out, and go to the correct thread and click reply, then copy and paste to post in the thread.  After the posts are in their correct places, delete any remaining extra posts.
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lenore
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« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2005, 07:51:07 am »

 :)February 27.

In reply to Mark posting at 5:38 pm:
With the long quote of Al.

I was doing my Alpha homework for tomorrow, so I can send it to my co leader Pastor B.
It is amazing how Lord, double checks everything he wants to teach us.
It is in the book Challenging Lifestyle by Nicky Gumbel.
The topic is How to Discern False Prophets.
If anyone gets a chance to attend a ALpha Meetings it is time well worth the time...Lenore
=======================================================

CHAPTER 18 OF ALPHA  [MATTHEW 7:15-23]
   How to Discern False Prophets.

QUESTIONS:
1. How would you respond to the suggestion that 'if someone talks about God and heals people, what they say must be right"?

2. When Jesus talks about recognizing true and false prophets by their "fruit" what does He mean?

3. How are we to weigh the words of those who claim to speak from God?

4. By what criteria do you assess the sermons and talks you hear? What does Nicky suggest as the most helpful pointer?

5. What does it mean in practice to be 'personally and vitally related to Jesus"?


Passages from the book''
False prophets can be clearly outside of the church.
There are others who speak from within the church , and appear to be saying godly things, but in reality are leading people away from God. The church may say: Surely all spiritual teachers are good or, "surely, if a person talks about God and heals people, it must be all right." But Jesus tells that this is not the case. There is a need to discern.

The word prophet  here includes anyone who speaks 'in the name of the Lord". False prophets can also be anyone who claims to speak from God.

Jesus gives us a very serious warning about false prophets [v. 15]
The wolf is a natural enemy of the sheep.

It is a very serious matter to harm God's people and Jesus warns that such people will be like tress that are cut down and thrown into the fire ]v19]

THE WRONG TEST
The wrong test is superficial one. It looks only at the outward clothing.  "Sheeps clothing could include an outward profession faith. Verbal profession is not enough. It is not sufficient to know all the Christian jargon and recite the Christian creeds.
The 'sheep's clothing' could also include supernatural activity. [[vs. 22-23]] .  Jesus is not speaking against the activities themselves. He clearly expected that his people would prophesy, drive out demons, and perform miracles. Indeed, that Matthews inclusion of this passage suggest that these activities were continue in the church. Yet in themselves they are not sufficient to prove that a prophet is genuine.

THE RIGHT TEST : Looking on the Inside

There is only one true test which Jesus gives, and He repeats it: "BY THEIR FRUITS YOU WILL RECOGNIZE THEM" VS. 16-20

Fruit , on the other hand is visible and is relatively easy to test.
One result of this is that although we are to be wise, and discerning, we are not to be suspicious of everyone, and neither are we to become heresy hunters. For false prophets will reveal themselves by their fruits.

Six aspects of Fruits:

The Fruit of Character: Who they are?
Galatians 5:22-23
These are the characteristics we expect to see growing in a person who is a true Christian and has the Holy Spirit of God living within.
Matthew 5:1-16
There should be humily, a thirst for righteousness, a merciful attitude, meekness, purity and all the other characteristics .
We need especially to look at Christian leaders and ask questions about their character. Of course, we will never find perfection, as all leaders are still human beings and subject to the same temptations and weaknesses as the rest of us. But we need to ask whether there are fundamental flaws in their characters.
Cult Leaders: there is a disturbing arrogance, which should put us on our guard. We should always be susupicious of those who, in their arrogance, exclude all others.

Type of Conduct: What they do?
Jesus says that those who enter the kingdom of heaven will be those who do the will of  His Father v.21.
What we believe will affect how we live, Our creed determines our conduct.
When we look at the cults we often see, for example, great sexual immorality.

The context of their teachings: What they say?
Fruitfulness in relation to what people say.   Matthew 12:33-37; Dueteronomy 13:1-3
In other words , the people were to test the prophet by his teaching - whether he led people to God or away from Him.  We need to weight the words of anyone who claims speak on behalf of God against what we know to be the Word of God. How do the words of the prophet stand up against the teachings of Scripture?
Cults and sects often claim that the authority of the Bible is not enough for us and rely on some other source of authority. In addition they always depart from at least one major historic doctrine of the Christian faith, such as the Trinity or the divinity of Christ.

The Style of their relationships: How they love?
Love for other Christians is the command of Jesus. If we obey this command, we will remain in the vine and bear fruit. Love and fruitfulness go hand in hand. Love is the first fruit of the Spirit.  Galatians 5:22  ; 
Matthew 7:1
There is a delicate balance. We need to beware of judging and condemning other Christians.
Harsh judementalism combined with exclusiveness is one of marks of cults.

The results of their influence: the effect they have?
We need to ask what the fruit of the ministry is, in terms of the effect it has on the lives of the congregation, Is it producing a congregation united in love, full of joy, living at peace, full of kindness to others, doing good, and showing themselves to be faithful, gentle and self controlled? Is it producing the sort of people  and lifestyle Jesus has commanded through this sermon? Looking at the congregations as a whole, not just one struggling individual. The question to ask about a sermon, "Are they bringing people closer to God".

The depth of their relationship with Jesus: Who they are in private?
John 15 Jesus uses the image of the vine, Jesus is the vine and we are the branches. If we stay close to Jesus we will bear much fruit, but without Him we can do nothing . The way to produce fruit is to be personally and vitally related to Jesus. Unless we are in this relationship we will bear no fruit.
False prophets were not living in a relationship with Jesus Christ and the unseen roots of secret giving, private prayer and private fasting had not been built up.
Jeremiah 23:18

Conclusion:
The true prophet Know Jesus Christ, listens to Him and speaks His Word, God has given us His Word , and His Spirit to enable us to test whether a prophet is genuinely from Him.








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vernecarty
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« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2005, 05:30:48 am »

Emotional habits form deep channels in our personality which just naturally cause us to act in certain ways.  Most of what we do is not based on rational thought, but habits formed via our lifestyle.



I think this observation is correct.
I also am wondering if you have considered our emotional idiosycracies from another perspective, and that is a corruption and perversion of a natural and God-given faculty because of our sin nature.
For example, a toddler does not have to achieve a whole lot of life experience to get really ticked off when they fail to get their own way. Clearly anger is a divine characteristic and not in and of itself inherently sinful, but its expression in the creature becomes perverted becaues of sin.
While I understand life experiences can exacerbate these kinds of aberrations, I think it is also true that in the lives of ordinary folk who have not necessarily  been exposed to trauma of some sort, such as assembly abuse, restoration of the divine intent so far as our affections are concerned, is one of the great benefits of redemption.
Food for thought my friend.
Verne

p.s As you can probably guess, I am driving at the thesis that one of the things that happened to many in the assemblies is total confusion (due to psychological manipulation) over what did or did not constitute the healthy expression of emotion. We had an environment where  situations which would have triggered absolute moral outrage in any reasoanbly normal individual was excused and justified...and inculcated as being acceptable and indeed "spiritual"...
« Last Edit: March 03, 2005, 05:46:10 am by VerneCarty » Logged
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