On the Topic of Evil in Leadership!!!!

[vernecarty]

George invited me into the workers meeting the 2nd time it convened because I had asked him what it was all about after the frist time the workers met. Gratefully In Christ,
al

God works in such mysterious ways Al. Sometime in the early eighties when Kurt Green was in Champaign, he was trying to discourage me from taking a trip home to see my parents because the "workers' seminar would be that week".
Although he never said so explicitly, I got the distinct impression that he expected that I would be going. I have to confess that it was flattering and I cannot now honestly say how I would have responded had I been asked to attend.
Did my decision to go home have a dramatic and fateful  impact on my destiny?
I would not be the same person I am today had I ever become officially involved with George's "work", of that I am certain.
It is kind of strange that an article I wrote while in the Virgin Islands was actually published in T and T!(Torture & Travesty  )
There is no question that God had a specific pupose for taking you on the path he did my friend.
He intends it to accrue to your eternal benefit, your own estimation of it notwithstanding...
Verne

[Mark C.]

Mark K. :  My comments re. your exchange with Dave S. were meant to be supportive of your view and not critical.  I did not interpret your comments as being down on any individuals.  I have enjoyed your contribution to this topic and the BB in general.

Marcia: Re. quitting my day job:  Any contributions will be gladly accepted, though I will not be as brash as "Burt from Barstow" in my fundraising efforts.    .  Dave M. has a right to express his opinion, but if he is not truthful I have a right to call him on it. My heart does go out to him, because as you said he is damaged goods, and I have not been one of those who have called for his ouster from the BB.  His initial post raised an important question that needs to be faced by the church.

Dave S. :  I would like to respond to what you had to say re. "Assembly bad" but I will have to wait until I have some more time.  I understand your perspective and respect your views very much, but I would like to take some time in explaining how in practice the groups you mentioned are not that different from the Assembly.  In public teaching the Assembly may have been more orthodox, but in practice they used the same kind of guilt and shame based control methods used by every cult.

  Within everyone of the groups you mentioned the former members can remember good times, and most certainly there are individuals for whom we remember as being earnest and good people.  I have fond memories of most of my old Assembly pals and can recall times where God used my relationships there; after all, I got married there, and that was a very good thing!

  When I say "Assembly bad" I am speaking of the system that GG set up that was an idolotrous counterfeit of true Christian life.  It runs like a machine and chews up the good people who are involved in it.  Yes, some stayed on the fringes, and for them they may have heard the noise from the factory, but never got close enough to breathe the toxic fumes it spewed.

  However, I must wait to go into this further as I do indeed have a day job to go to tomorrow. 

                                                      God Bless,  Mark C.

[vernecarty]

 
.  Yes, some stayed on the fringes, and for them they may have heard the noise from the factory, but never got close enough to breathe the toxic fumes it spewed.

 
                                                      God Bless,  Mark C.

Yep! That was definitely me. There was indeeed a toxic aroma emmanating from the inner circle of this bunch and some of us instinctively (and wisely) kept our distance. Some clueless wannabe doltishly referred to this as "hiding" can you imagine? The really smart folk knew better than to let any of these vultures get their beaks or claws in them...
Verne

[outdeep]

When I say "Assembly bad" I am speaking of the system that GG set up that was an idolotrous counterfeit of true Christian life.

Well, that one does indeed hit home. 

I can't say I know exactly what the "true Christian life" is.  I'm not trying to be a wise-acre.  Some Christian friends of mine feel the true spiritual life lies in intamacy and a sensitivity to what they feel is God's subjective leading.  Others model Christ by having a well ordered home and high ethics in business.  Others are more intellectual about their faith.  Others are very feelings oriented.  Yet, with all this diversity, I think my friends are at least in the ballpark of truth of working out a relationship with Jesus Christ.

The model I got from George is arrogance (we are God's chosen because we are willing to see the truth), exclusiveness (those other churches are simply walking in the light they have, but we have something better), denial (I'm not overbrearing.  I'm just being a faithful shepherd) judgementalism (you can't support your friend.  He got divorsed and is in sin), pride (Thank God I did my homework.  You would know this unless you are a historical ignoramus), etc.  But, again, my problem seems to always gravitate back to George.

But, dare I write off everything?  Was there never good ministry given?  Was there never Christian truth proclaimed or read?  Was there no good examples?  Was everything I picked up false?  No.

You probably don't have to wax long on the idea that other groups use the same techniques as the Assembly.  I've read "churches that abuse" and other resources and know that there are a certain set of practices that make a group unhealthy.   And, yes, the Assembly incorporated them like David Koresh.

But, there are differences.  Some groups went out in a flame of gunfire.  Others encouraged open orgies.  Other groups, when you leave, you fear for your life or you cannot function without years of intense counseling.  Other groups have doctrine that is so out there that it isn't even close to Christian and there is no possible way to understand the gospel.

So I agree with you that it is helpful to look at other groups and note the simlarities.  And I understand that telling a wounded pilgrim that he was only injured with an arrow and not a machine gun really doesn't help him or her.  However, I don't think you can drop every group from the Assembly to skin-head Nazis into one box and say that there is no difference.

[vernecarty]

  However, I don't think you can drop every group from the Assembly to skin-head Nazis into one box and say that there is no difference.

You are making some great points Dave. There are some folk who were in the assembly who I believe made a difference, and I think exactly for the reason that they were willing to go against the system. There are some men I met there that I still think of with fond respect. Guys like Chubby Todd, Denny Fredericks, Jim McCumber, Paul Hohulin and Paul Martin. These men were good examples and a godly influence. I am sure there were others who can also cite exceptions from the norm. Men who were unquestionably part of the system but whom I found to be men of absolute integrity.
This is something of a double edged sword because these kinds of men were also the reason some folk stuck around so long.
I am also grateful for the deep friendships I formed there.
I still have to smile when I thinkg about all the great times of laughter I had with guys like Mark Kisla and Gary Mau.
The singing group from St Louis was a great blessing and Peter James and I are still in touch and try to play together every now and then. Were there some good things in the  assemblies? Yes, for me there were. Points well taken Dave.
Verne

[Mark Kisla]

Yes, it may be meaningless in this sense:  you can't go up to someone who was beaten up by thugs and say, "good thing they didn't have knives".  This doesn't help the pain.

But, it is not meaningless in the context of my life where I an able see how God used "evil for good", enriched my life and kept me from worse things.  No one wants a major operation or a child to die of cancer.  But many can look back and see how God used it.  So, I don't think the thought is irrelevant.  I look back at the Assembly as my cancer operation and I am glad I wasn't in a group where the cancer was terminal.

I guess I am having a hard time buying into the black-and-white "Assembly bad" mentality because I don't know what it means.  Does it mean it was bad to join the Assembly (as Mark K uses it).  Well, OK I can buy into that.  There are other churches I wish I went to in my college years.  Does it mean the Assembly did unspeakably bad things (as Mark C uses it).  Well, I can buy into that.  There was spiritual abuse to all and focused abuse towards many in the inner circle.  Does it mean there were no positives, no working of God, no learning, no good ideals, no spiritual growth, no sincere leader?  Well, then I don't agree.  There was.

In my opinion, I think a much better saying would be:  "George bad".  In fact, I think the Assembly was rather good except for the many places George had a chokehold.  In fact, in the few places where you could get away from George's "big hand" of dominance and control, it was a great blessing.

Dave,
I just don't want the good things that were not assembly controlled that I received during my time of involvement in the assembly, to prevent me from calling the assembly what it really was or cause me to candy coat what was wrong there.
Mark K

[Mark Kisla]

You are making some great points Dave. There are some folk who were in the assembly who I believe made a difference, and I think exactly for the reason that they were willing to go against the system. There are some men I met there that I still think of with fond respect. Guys like Chubby Todd, Denny Fredericks, Jim McCumber, Paul Hohulin and Paul Martin. These men were good examples and a godly influence. I am sure there were others who can also cite exceptions from the norm. Men who were unquestionably part of the system but whom I found to be men of absolute intergrity.
This is something of a double edged sword because these kinds of men were also the reason some folk stuck around so long.
I am also grateful for the deep friendships I formed there.
I still have to smile when I thinkg about all the great times of laughter I had with guys like Mark Kisla and Gary Mau.
The singing group from St Louis was a great blessing and Peter James and I are still in touch and try to play together every now and then. Were there some good things in the  assemblies? Yes, for me there were. Points well taken Dave.
Verne

Verne,
 I have the same sentiment toward you and the individuals you have mentioned, plus many many others. I don't credit the assembly for these people, but God  who had mercy on us, despite the wrongs that were taking place in the assembly

[M2]

Matt 5:20 "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven."

Matt 23:23  "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others."

It would appear that the scribes and Pharisees did do some things right, but nevertheless the Lord Jesus rebuked them and their system.

The evil comes from the same source and manifested in varying degrees. e.g. the Lord said that their father was the devil.  Nice organized systemized Pharisees of the devil

The evil that comes from twisted Christianity is harder to untangle than that which is clearer cut black and white.

Marcia

[outdeep]

Dave,
I just don't want the good things that were not assembly controlled, that I received during my time of involvement in the assembly to prevent me from calling the assembly what it really was or cause me to candy coat what was wrong there.
Mark K

I don't think you have any danger of that if you are being honest on both sides.  Give credit where credit is due and call a spade a spade.  Don't just apply a label or put in a box.

[Mark C.]

I can't say I know exactly what the "true Christian life" is.  I'm not trying to be a wise-acre. 
But, dare I write off everything?  Was there never good ministry given?  Was there never Christian truth proclaimed or read?  Was there no good examples?  Was everything I picked up false?  No.

You probably don't have to wax long on the idea that other groups use the same techniques as the Assembly.  I've read "churches that abuse" and other resources and know that there are a certain set of practices that make a group unhealthy.   And, yes, the Assembly incorporated them like David Koresh.

But, there are differences.
So I agree with you that it is helpful to look at other groups and note the simlarities.  And I understand that telling a wounded pilgrim that he was only injured with an arrow and not a machine gun really doesn't help him or her.  However, I don't think you can drop every group from the Assembly to skin-head Nazis into one box and say that there is no difference.

 Hi Dave!

  Thanks for hanging in on this conversation, because I'm not just trying to be argumentative, but am really trying to think this one through.

  I understand your fear that I may "wax long"   , but I will spare you and everyone else a lengthy lecture !

  When I talk of the "Christian life" I'm not talking about personal preferences re. lifestyle but what the Bible teaches re. moral responsibilities.  After all, this discussion is about "good and evil" and how the Assembly may fit into God's views re. the same.

  A most poigant example of this is how recently a number of evangelical Christians took the public position of the need to "forgive" a man who sexaully abused and murdered a child.  They are terribly confused morally re. what the bible teaches re. what God is really like.  They understand God's love, and human depravity in a way that makes it seem that God could care less about the victim of the crime, but feels great affection for the victimizer!!!

  It is a false view of grace to believe that God's love is without any moral evaluation that discriminates between a victimizer and a victim.  Jesus himself made a difference between the bad Jewish religionist and the abused member in that system.  Marcia's quotes from the NT point this out well.

  I think it is very helpful to see how the Bible treats the whole issue, because I find it is decidedly different from how cult watching groups tend to deal with it.  The NT is very concerned with the pattern of practice found in groups that claim to follow God, as well as orthodox doctrine.

  When the ascended Jesus dealt with the 7 churches of Asia practices were the most important issues dealt with (in other words how they lived).  Laodicea was considered a Christian church, and undoubtedly there were true Christians in the group, but Jesus gave a general denunciation of all involved!

  Did they not have times in that group where the truth was proclaimed and did they not have in that group individuals who were sincere in their pursuit of God?  Was it unfair of Jesus to just negate the good and attack them for their failures?  Aren't we all just sinners and all churches fall short?  Certainly there were worse groups in Asia at the time that deserved far more a good lambasting for their outlandish beliefs and practices!

  The reason why Jesus was so strident with Laodicea is exactly because there were those of value in that church that he believed he could reach.  This is why we should continue to be just as energetic in our outreach to those disaffected from their Assembly experience.

  Loadicea had developed a system that used Christian language that damaged true believers; it drove a wedge between Jesus and His people ("behold I stand at the door and knock").

   We run the risk of muting Jesus' entreaty to former/present Asembly members if we minimize the true character of the Assembly as anything less than a spiritually abusive system.  We also lessen the clarity that is necessary for former leaders if they are to find true repentance and recovery.

 We know how some former members are living in denial and are looking for anything they can do to ease their conscience (for those whose conscience isn't already seared) by attempting to mitigate any view that God had problems with Assembly practices and teaching.  By trying to claim that Assembly problems were primarily GG's failures, and that these "failures" did not become systemized bad religion, is a mistake.

  Yes, Neo Nazi groups are much farther away from God, but most likely there are no children of God in such a group, and as such none that can be recovered to a healthy view of things.  I trust that I have not "waxed too long" with this post  

                                                 God Bless,  Mark C.

[Mark Kisla]

I don't think you have any danger of that if you are being honest on both sides.  Give credit where credit is due and call a spade a spade.  Don't just apply a label or put in a box.

I don't want to put God in a box and label it the assembly.
Honesty with oneself and scriptual truth are very important. Without Gods grace I could'nt do either.

[vernecarty]

  A most poigant example of this is how recently a number of evangelical Christians took the public position of the need to "forgive" a man who sexaully abused and murdered a child.  They are terribly confused morally re. what the bible teaches re. what God is really like.  They understand God's love, and human depravity in a way that makes it seem that God could care less about the victim of the crime, but feels great affection for the victimizer!!!


                                                 God Bless,  Mark C.

One of the very first things I learned about walking with the Saviour is to agree with Him regarding my sin.
1. That it exists.
2. That He has paid the price for its forgiveness.
There is a kind of fog shrouding the minds of a lot of Christians today in this area Mark and I am glad to hear you make the point. We have seen the result of that kind of fuzzy thinking on the BB not just once but several times.
In fact, I suspect that some people rely on the incredible stupidity of some Christians in this regard and puposefully trun it to an advantage.
To promote "love" and "forgiveness" for people who not only refuse to acknowldge transgression, but continue to engage in destructive and unholy conduct is total and complete spiritual idiocy.
This is exactly the kind of argument used to silence protest of ungodly conduct in the assemblies.
That anyone would still try to use that tactic after all that has transpired is remarkable.
The Bible speaks far more about God's holiness than it does about His love.
I have concluded that people who think and argue like this are totally corrupt, and lacking any moral compass whatsoever.
It seems to be that accommodation with personal sin and compromise, is what ultimately enables its toleration and sanction in others, particularly self-proclaimed believers.
I want to be clear that I am not speaking about anyone posting on this BB but speaking in general about how too many Christinas react to wickedness.
 The Bible says that people who name the name of Christ, yet by their conduct deny him are worse than infidels, and we are to treat them accordingly. There is no instruction to extend to people of this sort, "forgivness" and "love". We need to read ALL of our Bibles to avoid playing the part of complete and utter fools... wise as serpents, harmless as doves...
Verne

[Mark C.]

Hi Verne!

  Thanks for your comments.  I want to be clear that I don't consider Dave S. to have "foggy thoughts" and I realize that you also mentioned this too and that you have made clear that you are not addressing any present BB poster. 

  I also want to make clear that those who take the position that "the Assembly isn't as bad as some say it is", are not the same as those who are defending the teaching/practices of the group.

   We all had different experiences in the group and some of us are plucking out more arrows than others  and as such will be more active in our condemnation of the archer.  However, the fact that there are any arrows to pull out begs the question of why are there those in the church of Jesus Christ  with bows and arrows who use them against his children in the first place!

   It is good, IMHO, however, to step back and try to ask the question how does God look at it?  When I mentioned the Church at Laodicea I was trying to gain a Biblical perspective apart from my own bias on the issue.

 When I look at all the material in the Gospels that focuses on the God given religion of Israel, and how it was twisted by the Pharisees, this could give another clue as to what Jesus might say if he was posting on the BB.

  Are there any comparisons to be made?  Was Jesus just exaggerating (hyperbole) as a means to gain the attention of the Pharisees, or can bad religion really make people into monsters?  Why was Jesus so angry with, and why did he so strongly denounce, these leaders?

  Why did Paul warn Christians that they could "destroy" a brother and that we are capable of "biting and devouring one another?"


   Jesus also warned his disciples against, (MT. 24:48-49) "beating their fellowservants" and could this have any application with the treatment some received while in the Assembly?

  The NT seems to have a zero tolerance policy for non-loving destructive actions taken in the name of God by supposed leaders of God.  If any of this kind of thing is going on in a group, and is not instantly rebuked, and instead is ignored, can we say that the Spirit of God is present in such a gathering (though good preaching and some good people are present)?

  In the Assembly not only was abuse ignored it was put in place as supposedly God's means of "breaking us" and "forming us" into his true servants!  If Judy Geftakys was getting smacked around by her husband it was God trying to teach her that she needed to curtail her "sharp tongue."!!

  I remember Judy as a young believer from the Valley.  She had a fresh innocence and sure faith in the Gospel and wanted to follow God in her life.  Because of GG and his Assembly this woman's spiritual life has been destroyed!

  I state this to ask you what you believe God thinks about this?  For whatever there was in the Assembly that might have had aspects of good in it, the bad far outweighed the good in her case, and makes her now suspect of anything Christian at all!

  Could the Devil actually have been involved in some of what went on in the Assembly, or is that going too far?  Is it Devilish to cover-up wife and child beating?  Does it serve the Devil to cover-up a child molestation to protect the ministry and an indiviudal who is valuable to the work?

   What do you believe God thinks of these kind of things?  It brings me to tears, but maybe I'm just a sentimental old Grandpa with an axe to grind. 

                                     God bless,  Mark C.

[vernecarty]

 





  The NT seems to have a zero tolerance policy for non-loving destructive actions taken in the name of God by supposed leaders of God.

There was a time, in the thinking of both those within and without the church, that the standard for a servant of Jesus Christ was high indeed. It would have been unthinkable for men guilty of sexual and other venial sins to contunue in ministry. Most men who fell prey to this kind of weakness, would not even need somebody to tell them that they were unfit for service. How times have changed!
I  was particularly disgusted with the way the African American community excused the adulterous conduct of a man like Jesse Jackson.
For some reason this touches a very sensitive chord in me. Practically all of the strongest reactions evoked in me (sometimes I admit not with grace) during my time on this BB has been from people who seem too willing to excuse godless behavour from those in positions of spiritual authority.
My reaction is not based only on emotion though. It has a theological warrant.
Mark you are absolutely right in pointing our that the Biblical standard for wolves in sheep's clothing is ZERO TOLERANCE!
I guess where some of us have a problem is in recognizing them.
I will tell your quite frankly, I would rather err on the side of caution when it comes to this.
One can always apologise to an offended sheep later.
Mistaking a wolf for a sheep will afford you no such opportunity.
You will ultimately be devoured.
Some folk, in my humble opinon, are still making this mistake...
Verne



 

I remember Judy as a young believer from the Valley.  She had a fresh innocence and sure faith in the Gospel and wanted to follow God in her life.  Because of GG and his Assembly this woman's spiritual life has been destroyed!

 

My heart still breaks for this sister...she is the primary reason for the way I sometimes speak as I do...
Verne

[outdeep]

Mark,

Thanks for your thought and I do understand better where you are coming from.

I do have a natural aversion to labels (Assembly-bad, or when we were in the Assembly, Denominations-bad, Charismatics-bad, John MacAuthor-Bad, Catholics-bad etc.) and part of my rethinking my Assembly years is to attempt (often unsuccessfully) to view things not as systems, but made up of individual people, not all of whom are bad.

However, in reading your posts and others, I can see many context in which the label fits.  As Al Hartman said to me, "I can't in good conscience refer someone to the Assembly".  Therefore, in that sense, bad.  I would recommend Calvary Chapel or EV Free or many other churches in the Southern California area long before I would say, "you know, there is still a group of folks meeting at the  Senior center . . ." (even with all the reform and attitude changes that have taken place).

I'm sorry about the "wax long" comment.  It was more flippant than I intended it to be.

By the way, I am probably going to be in-and-out of the bb.  I am getting real busy at work and I am working hard to make sure that this board doesn't become a distraction (our weekends are getting loaded as well with a business trip and foster care conference).   I guess I should be happy that Samaritan's Purse is collecting shoe box gifts for Tsunami victems, but it sure is taking a chunk out of my software development schedule!

But, I have much to be thankful for.  I have a good job and I would much rather be over-busy than under-busy.  I've had both and having little to do on the job is the pits.

Lord bless,

-Dave