hebrews 13:17

[guest]

what does this verse mean to people?

[Chuck Miller]

Obey your leaders and submit to them for they keep watch over your souls, as those who will give an account.           Hebrews 13:17

There seemed to have been the inference, either spoken or implied, that leaders were somehow appointed by God to keep watch over the souls under their charge.  Therefore, they were to be afforded unquestioning obedience and it was considered, “rebellious” to question or disagree with them, knowing that, even when they were in error, God Himself would correct them,   After all, wouldn’t this have to be true if He commanded such unquestioning obedience to His leaders.

I have often heard this verse used by Protestant or Evangelic church leaders to defend an authoritative position that they have taken in their congregations, although maybe not quite as obtrusively as in the assemblies .  On the surface, the verse does appear to delegate such authority to them.  However, when examined in conjunction with Jesus’ instruction in Mark 10:42, one can’t help but notice an obvious contradiction between the two.  So, how can they be reconciled?  I believe that a study of a few Greek words will easily dispel any seeming disparity, and demonstrate the complete harmony of God’s word.

The problem lies in the fact that there are two Greek words, "hupakouo" and "peitho," both of which are translated “obey”  in the scriptures, whereas, in actuality  they have  very different  meanings.

According to Vine’s Expository Dictionary, these words are similarly translated “obey” in  scriptures, such as in Hebrews 5:9 (hupakouo) and 13:17 (peitho). So let’s begin by taking a close look at their respective definitions.

hupakouo  is defined - to listen to attend, and so, to submit, to obey

peitho is defined - to persuade, to win over ( with the notation that the obedience suggested is not submission to authority, but resulting from persuasion)

Even though both are translated “obey” in just about every rendition of the  scriptures, note the difference in meaning –– then note how they are applied in scripture

The word hupakouo is used a strict sense of implicit obedience in:

 Hebrews 5:9 and 11:8 in reference to obedience to God.
 Ephesians 6:1 and Colossians 3:20 in reference to obedience of children to parents
 Philippians 2:12 and 2 Thessalonians 3:14 in reference to obedience to apostolic injunction
 Ephesians 6:5 and Colossians 3:22 in reference to obedience of slaves to masters

On the other hand, the word peitho is used to convey a sense of having a willingness to be persuaded.  We find it used in:

  Hebrews 13:17 in reference to obedience to leaders.        

One need only to refer to Jesus’ instruction in Mark 10:42 to ascertain that the unquestioning obedience implied by the word hupakouo would be totally inappropriate in reference to obeying church leaders, since it would contradict Jesus’ instruction to His apostles.  Instead, the use of peitho in Hebrews 13:17 leaves no doubt that it conveys an attitude of one being open to the persuasion of those who are in leadership.  The willingness would stem from a confidence in the spiritual maturity of the leaders, and the persuasion from the inner confirmation of the Holy Spirit giving evidence to truth.  But even the qualified admonition of Hebrews 13:17 is further tempered elsewhere in the scriptures.  We read :

But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;
   1 Thessalonians 5:21

Now these were more noble-minded than those in  Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.     Acts 17:11

Domineering and authoritative leadership was decried by the Lord Jesus Christ and has no place in His church.   Diligent study and discernment of God’s word was a prerequisite for qualifying as an overseer.

[Phil Strangman]

I agree!

All throughout human history, it's been so easy for leaders to take advantage of the people they are over. David was a man after God's own heart, but even he took advantage of Uriah. He ended up being killed on orders from David and Bathsheba suddenly found herself with another man for the rest of her life. All at David's command.

What Jesus talks about in Mark 10:42 on is so unlike the way man has acted over the years. The chiefest...being the servant? What would Saddam say to that? Yeah, it really takes the life of Christ to be that way. History tells us humans in power can't resist running away with it.

Chuck, thanks for sharing that.

I pray that all of us, including the people formerly known as the "leading brothers", understand this, so that we all can get on in love and fellowship. I love the people I'm with and want to see us all keep on keeping on.

[Chuck Miller]

Any exposition on leadership in the church of our Lord Jesus Christ must begin with the foundational principal found in Mark 10:42

'You know that those who are recognized as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them; and their great men exercise authority over them.
But it is not so among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant;
and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be slave of all.
For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.

Hebrews 13:17 can only be correctly understood in it's compatibility with Mark 10:42  

[editor]

Dear Chuck

I love your writing!  Keep it coming, please  
did everyone read this?  Remember how LB's lorded it over the flock using this verse??

Great discussion.

Brent

[Arthur]

Ok, I'll ask it a third time.  There's more to that verse than just the word "obey."  Somebody explain the rest please.

"obey...and submit..."

Arthur

[Chuck Miller]

Hang on brother,  I'll get back to you this evening if possible.  Have been gone and now am just checking the site before I head out again.

[H]

Here is an extract from John Owen's commentary on Hebrews that might be helpful (he has a lot more to say on this verse and I would recommend reading it if you have access to it):

"There are two parts of the duty enjoined with respect unto
these guides, and that with distinct respect unto the two parts of
their office before mentioned, namely, of teaching and ruling.
[1.] It is with respect unto their teaching, preaching, or pastoral
feeding, that they are commanded to "obey them."
For the word signifies an obedience on a persuasion;
such as doctrine, instruction, or teaching, doth produce.  And, -
[2.] The submission required, "Submit yourselves," respects their
rule,  'Obey their doctrine, and submit to their rule.'
And some things must be observed, to clear the inten-
tion of the apostle herein.
1st. It is not a blind, implicit obedience and subjection, that is
here prescribed.  A pretence hereof hath been abused to the ruin
of the souls of men: but there is nothing more contrary to the whole
nature of gospel obedience, which is our "reasonable service;" and
in particular, it is that which would frustrate all the rules and direc-
tions given unto believers in this epistle itself, as well as elsewhere,
about all the duties that are required of them.  For to what pur-
pose are they used, if no more be required but that men give
up themselves, by an implicit credulity, to obey the dictates of
others?
2dly. It hath respect unto them in their office only.   If those
who suppose themselves in office do teach and enjoin things that
belong not unto their office, there is no obedience due unto them
by virtue of this command.  So is it with the guides of the church
of Rome, who, under a pretence of their office, give commands in
secular things, no way belonging unto the ministry of the gospel.
3dly. It is their duty so to obey whilst they teach the things which
the Lord Christ hath appointed them to teach; for unto them is
their commission limited, Matt. xxviii. 20: and to submit unto their
rule whilst it is exercised in the name of Christ, according to his
institution, and by the rule of the word, and not otherwise.   When
they depart from these, there is neither obedience nor submission
due unto them.  Wherefore, -
4thly. In the performance of these duties, there is supposed a
judgment to be made of what is enjoined or taught, by the word of
God, according to all the instructions and rules that are given us
therein.  Our obedience unto them must be obedience unto God.
5thly. On this supposition their word is to be obeyed and their
rule submitted unto, not only because they are true and right ma-
terially, but also because they are theirs, and conveyed from them
unto us by divine institution.  A regard is to be had unto their
authority and office-power in what they teach and do."

[Arthur]

Hang on brother,  I'll get back to you this evening if possible.  Have been gone and now am just checking the site before I head out again.

Thanks Chuck, and I did appreciate your post on the first part of the verse.

Thank H. Interesting, I'll have to look at this more in depth...but point 4 and 5 seem to be close to some of the ideas behind assembly authority, but it is important to note the first three points that preceed the last two, which qualify what an elder is to be before 4 and 5 are followed.

[Chuck Miller]

Hi Arthur,

Wouldn’t it be simple if we had a universal language wherein there could be no mistake about the meaning of a verse?  I’m no Greek scholar, so I have to look to those who are for clarity.  But we must always be mindful that only the original manuscripts are absolutely accurate, and any translation or commentary is, by and large, the product of the translators theology.  Their exegesis will be subjective to their beliefs .  This can sometimes be seen in the insertion of words that are not in the original text but have been added in order to attempt to give a clearer meaning to the verse or passage.  They may or may not be accurate.

Regarding the word "submit in Hebrews 13:17, if we agree that Jesus  specifically instructed the  twelve that they were not to “lord it over” or “to “exercise authority” over the flock (and Peter reiterated the same in 1 Peter 5:3); then we would necessarily have to see a contradiction in Hebrews 13:17 if the writer was instructing Chrisian believers to unquestioningly submit to church leaders.

Might I suggest that if we are to have a willingness to be persuaded by a leader’s scriptural instruction, correction, or teaching, we should also have a willingness to submit to that instruction if it is scripturally accurate, and not to the leader.  The authority is in the word of God, not in a man.  Let me give an illustration.

Assume if you will, a situation where a brother confers with an elder (leading brother, pastor, etc.) concerning another brother who has cheated him out of a sizeable amount of money.  He desires to take the brother to court in order to “teach him a lesson” and to recover his money.  Upon hearing his grievance, the elder agrees that such action would be appropriate and justified and counsels him to do so.
Another brother, upon overhearing  the conversation, intercedes and points out that he should not do so, since the word instructs us to not take a brother to court (1 Cor 6:10).
Who has the authority in such a case –– the leader who has the title, or the brother who is instructing in accordance with God’s word?  

Remember, we are also told to be subject to one another in the fear of Christ. (Eph 5:21).

Anyway, those are my thoughts, for what they're worth.  I'd be interested in hearing yours.

Chuck Miller

[Arthur]

Might I suggest that if we are to have a willingness to be persuaded by a leader’s scriptural instruction, correction, or teaching, we should also have a willingness to submit to that instruction if it is scripturally accurate, and not to the leader.  The authority is in the word of God, not in a man.  Let me give an illustration.

Thank you, Mr. Miller.  Yes, that's how I see it also.  Of course God's word is to be followed above any man's word seeing as how, well, he is God and we all are just lowly men, sinners, who all need to learn from God the way that is right.  So then a true elder is one that has come to have experience with God, one who has gotten to know him and God presence has rubbed off on him so to speak.  In such a man, the traits of an elder would be clearly seen, not because any man gave him a title, but as a natural result of his being close to God for years. I would expect that such a man has continued in Jesus' word to the point that it has become his life.  He speaks and lives the Word.  And such a man realizes that everything he has, God has given to him. He would be humble and gentle and caring and all the fruits of the spirit would be seen in him.
I think such a thing would be wonderful, and certainly something to aspire to.  You know, at one time I believed what I just wrote above (I grew up in a normal church for the first 20 years of my life).  Then I saw what were called "elders" in the assembly, and I was a bit confused.  What I couldn't figure out was how these men could preach from the Bible and everyone recognized that they were "elders", yet their lives showed otherwise.  Well, now everything is coming to the light in that group, and I'm glad to get a clear understanding once again from normal people.  This encourages me.  Thank you.

Arthur

Perhaps you have some thoughts on my questions here:
http://www.geftakysassembly.com/bb/index.php?board=6;action=display;threadid=247

[Chuck Miller]

Good thoughts,  Arthur.  Would that we would all aspire to meet the qualities you mention.
Ive copied your article from the other site and will try to get back to you soon with some thoughts.

Chuck