I still have questions: Q1 "Will I go to heaven?"

[Arthur]

GG's "salvation" was like this:

Your life is a big open field, that has been paved over.  It has been used as a dumping ground for the world. God wants it to be broken up, plowed and planted in order to have it bear fruit, one-hundred fold.

Grace is like a big Home Depot, with a Farm Supply attached, and everything there has already been paid for.

You need only walk into home depot, get shovels, rakes, tractors, seeds, tools, supplies, etc.  and get to work! You will have to work hard, but it would impossible if it were not for Jesus buying all the tools.  He has made all provision, but it is up to you to avail yourself of His provision.

It's all of grace, in that the tools were paid for by Jesus, but it's all of works, in that God wants a return on his investment in the tools.  

You guys better get busy, because someday Jesus is going to ask you to give account for what you did with His grace.  His grace obligates our works, because we owe Him!

My oh my is it ever sick!  If anyone reading this doesn't understand, please chime in, as this is totally important!

Brent

A field, home depot, and get to work!  Nice analogy there Brent.
Remember that one song, "... but I will work like any slave for love of his dear Son."  
Well, don't we owe Him our whole lives?   Ok, but you're saying not in the manner such that we are under the whip to get this life-project done or else.  Aren't we "his workmanship" after all, "created in Christ unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
Sounds like he's the farmer then, not me.  More than that, he's the one who created the whole field in the first place.  What's more, he then purchased it with his own blood.  "That we should walk in them" also doesn't sound like intense labor.

But what about the parable of the talents and of the servants who were told to "occupy till I come"?  Same question as MGov's.

In my eighth-grade Bible class, our teacher told us a story about a man traveling on a pilgrimage to some holy city.  Along the way he met a pearl merchant.  The merchant asked him why he was on the pilgrimage.  The man said that he was doing it out of devotion to God and because God required it.  The merchant then showed him the most beautiful pearl that human eyes have seen.  The merchant said, "I'd like to give you this pearl."  The man said, "No, I couldn't possibly take such a beautiful thing from you.  Please let me pay you for it.  How much is it?"   The merchant replied, "No, I'm afraid I cannot sell this pearl to you.  You see, my son was a pearl diver.  On one of his dives, he saw a great clam but it was very far down.  My son went to the depths to claim this pearl, and it cost him his life.  What could you pay me for my son's life?  There is no price that you could pay to be worth the life of my son."


Arthur

[Arthur]

All we have to do is to believe it, and He even provides us the Grace with which to do that.  A pretty complete package, don't you think?

That's very simple and easy to do.  I like that.    
What does it mean to believe?  It seems like you either have it or you don't (kinda like Morpheus in the Matrix  But the Bible does say that "faith comes by hearing right"...uh oh, assembly-teaching alert!  The next step in that thinking is, "Well then, to have more faith you need to read your Bibles more."  Hmm, there is some truth to that though.  In fact I would say that statement is true, but the motivation for being told that in the ga was to keep us on the treadmill, not because GG really wanted us to have more faith in God.  Is that fair and accurate to say?  

    Now, i'll go way out on a limb here, and tell you that NO, we aren't going to go to heaven, for the one simple reason that we are already there:

Ah, that sounds very lovely.  But a lot of times I don't feel like I'm in heaven.  Especially when I'm at work.  If that is heaven, then my hopes are sorely misplaced!  Heh  Uh oh, assembly-teaching alert again!  The next thought would be, "Well you need to beleive it and don't go by your feelings."  Again, I'd say that statement is true, and again I'd say the motivation behind how it was said was not.  

It may sound like all theory, but that's because while we are spiritually united with Christ on an eternal plane, our sin-toxified bodies (in which dwell our brains) have not yet been redeemed.

"sin-toxified bodies"  lol, that's cute.  Anything like the toxic-avenger?  You ever see those T-shirts that say, "This is your brain.  This is your brain in hell"?

 
     But it isn't even about that.  Look again at 1:18, and see that the real focus is the hope of HIS calling and the riches of the glory of HIS inheritance IN THE SAINTS.  Who could rob the Son of God of HIS inheritance?  And His inheritance IS US!  We are permanently locked into eternal oneness with Jesus Christ.  

I had a friend at Cal Poly named Christian Calume who was from Democratic Republic of Congo (formerly the Republic of Zaire, formerly Democratic Republic of Congo, formerly the Belgian Congo).  His favorite verse was Eph 1:18.  I can still picture us at the lunch table and hearing him say with emphasis in a slight french and not-so-slight tribal african accent "Do you see, Arthur, it says In the saints..." I considered myself fortunate to have friends like that.  Haven't seen him in ages, wonder how he's doing.

    And those works you're concerned about doing...  You're doing them.  One of them was starting this thread.  Besides getting answers for yourself, you have opened a whole path of instruction for many of us who need to learn these truths.  (i have been blessed by the whole thread so far).
     Your doubts, Arthur, are natural.  But your assurances are SUPERNATURAL:  the immutable promises of Almighty God.  Even you and i can't undo that!

al Hartman

Thanks Al!  

[Arthur]

...
The Christian is not only rightly related to God, he is really related to Him. There never was a child adopted who was not truly wanted.
...
Verne
p.s. I am starting to feel the glory...how 'bout you?

I see it.  It is wonderful.  But I am too tired from staying up late playing video games last night to feel particularly raptured.  Maybe such glorious concepts are wasted on such like me.  If only I had the capacity..."  Heheh  
But seriously Verne.  Yes!  Thank you for sharing that thought.  It is good to know that God wants me and has made me his son and nothing will ever change that--ever.    

[editor]

GG's "salvation" was like this:

Your life is a big open field, that has been paved over.  It has been used as a dumping ground for the world. God wants it to be broken up, plowed and planted in order to have it bear fruit, one-hundred fold.

Grace is like a big Home Depot, with a Farm Supply attached, and everything there has already been paid for.

You need only walk into home depot, get shovels, rakes, tractors, seeds, tools, supplies, etc.  and get to work! You will have to work hard, but it would impossible if it were not for Jesus buying all the tools.  He has made all provision, but it is up to you to avail yourself of His provision.

It's all of grace, in that the tools were paid for by Jesus, but it's all of works, in that God wants a return on his investment in the tools.  

You guys better get busy, because someday Jesus is going to ask you to give account for what you did with His grace.  His grace obligates our works, because we owe Him!

My oh my is it ever sick!  If anyone reading this doesn't understand, please chime in, as this is totally important!

Brent

But what about the parable of the talents and of the servants who were told to "occupy till I come"?  Same question as MGov's.

The way I understand the whole concept of works is thus:

Our works, and our righteousness is NOT what God wants.  We don't owe Him anything, because Jesus paid it all.

The works that we do are because we have been made new creations in Christ.  We have new hearts, and are indwelt by the Holy Spirit.  It is normal for us to want to please God, and we please Him because we are in Christ.  Sometimes we do things that are a blessing to others, in that the actions minister Christ to others in one way or another.  However, God loves a cheerful giver, not one who gives out of compulsion.

GG's doctrine made us all acutely aware of our spiritual state, and our lack, etc.  Many times we did things out of obligation or fear.  However, grace gains a willing heart, not an obligated one.

Far better for us to have our sole "christian" act being to smile at someone on Sunday morning, than to labor night and day out of a sense of obligation.  God will increase us in His time, and as we grow, our labor will also increase, but it will be of the sort where one hand doesn't know what the other is doing.

Paul said he was constrained by the love of Christ.  He labored out of love, and he would have been miserable if he didn't.  That's what God wants.  He wants us to serve him out of love.

GG's doctrine is pure poison in this area.  Sadly, many of his followers are totally clueless, or in denial about this.  I could say much more about this, and probably will, but I hope this helps get the discussion going!

Brent

[Arthur]

GG's doctrine made us all acutely aware of our spiritual state, and our lack, etc.  Many times we did things out of obligation or fear.  However, grace gains a willing heart, not an obligated one.

Yes, that is so true.  Let me ask you, is it a bad thing to be acutely aware of your own spiritual state?  Or is ignorance bliss?  
If we never had read the Bible or heard it from someone telling it to us, we would never know about just how bad off we are other than whatever our conscience naturally tells us.   And we wouldn't know how much we need Jesus.  

The more literate we become, the more we are aware of things.  This can cause grief because the reality of the world is despairing, but the Bible contains a message of hope in the midst of it.

George's teachings and the whole assembly lifestyle of intense Bible-study opened my eyes to many things.  Things I hadn't thought of before or ways of looking at it that I hadn't.  One of the main things I remember many times thinking as I first became a member was, "Oh, that's a harsh way of looking at it", but being young and zealous and wanting to be the best that I could be, I thought that 1. maybe we need to see it like that so that we would be disciplined in living the right way and please Jesus instead of a careless life or 2. I didn't agree but everything else about the assembly was good so I ignored it.  

To this day I think possibly that I judge things with too strict of a standard, one that I carry with me from the assembly.  I don't act upon it or enforce it on others, but it's there in the back of my mind.  Or maybe I shouldn't say "too strict of a standard" but rather a standard that isn't quite properly focused. I think it's getting more and more in focus proportional to the distance of time elapsed since my departure.

Arthur

[Mark Kisla]

rightly[/i] related to God, he is really related to Him.                                

There never was a child adopted who was not truly wanted. The adoption of the child of God into His family puts a whole new spin on this matter of salvation.                            

Do my two beautiful little girls sometimes misbehave and disobey their (of course perfect) dad? Do they sometimes disappoint me? You Betcha! Will they ever stop being my own little twiddle dums?
NOT FOR TIME OR ETERNITY!!!

How do you think our Heavenly Father feels...?

 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
  As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
  Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
  For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
  Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 8:35-39

Verne
p.s. I am starting to feel the glory...how 'bout you?)
 
ABSOLUTELY
 Well said; 'There never was a child adopted who was not truly wanted'  
 A bride can't be bullied into loving her husband.
It's about a relationship of love. "We love Him because He first loved us". Gods power gets all my respect but His love for us

* Mark Kisla when I see it ? Brings me to worship.

John 17:3
"And this is life eternal, that they might know Thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom Thou has sent."
To know Him..to know more of Him. That personally answers all my questions of where or how I should worship; what things or relationships I persue in my life. It's simple, follow Him to know Him because He loves me/us with all His Heart.

[al Hartman]

Beloved,
     Recently, during time spent in prayer and bible study,
i composed the following.   i have shared it with few, and didn't know whether to post it.  Here and now seem appropriate:

Learning What We Already Know:

    Most of us have heard the adage, "Familiarity breeds contempt."  Sometimes we may know a thing so well that we neglect to allow our knowledge of it to mature with the passage of time.  Or we may have known it for so long that we have forgotten that we know it at all.  We may even find that we never really knew it as we had thought we did.  Thus we have meditation:  unhurried reflection with the goal of discovery.
       With these thoughts in mind, let us look anew at the Twenty Third Psalm, perhaps the most memorized passage in all the scriptures:

A Psalm of David     This is the part that usually is not included in memorization, but it is no less important than the rest of the psalm, because David was a man after God's own heart and is remembered as such (Acts 13:22), in spite of the severity of his failures.  Although as God's anointed one he committed horrendous sin, the Lord reminds us of his "sure mercies" toward David (Acts 13:34).  It is from this perspective that the psalmist reflects...

The Lord is my shepherd;     Sometimes we may tend to use God's titles interchangeably, but each is significant in its own right.  By identifying
The Lord, David is representing God as the one and only ruling monarch over all creation, chief judge and magistrate whose word cannot be violated, commander-in-chief of all the host of heaven.  
Is states that the content of the psalm is in effect now, in the present tense.  
My makes it personal:  He is not just "a," nor "the," nor even "our" shepherd, but my very own.  
Shepherd is the role in which this magnificent, majestic, omnipotent personage has chosen to relate to me.  Not as my king, my judge, my commander, but as my shepherd he makes himself known.  The shepherd is not a hired ranch hand, watching the sheep for pay.  The flock is his own, and he has a personal concern for each and every member of it.  He cares for me.  He loves me.

I shall not want.  Name a single thing that is necessary for a sheep.  Name them all.  I shall not lack for any of them.  Because he is lord of all, everything is available to him, and he shall provide for my needs according to his endless riches.  "Want" in this context refers not to desire, but to requirement.  My good shepherd will not fail to supply me with everything that is necessary for my well being.

He maketh me to lie down in green pastures:     I have to admit it:  If i need a shepherd i must resemble a sheep, and sheep aren't known to have the keenest minds in the animal kingdom.  A sheep is as likely to wander away from good feed as toward it.  And when a sheep has a meal before it, it may just keep eating until it bloats.  My shepherd will resolve these potential dilemmas.  He will see to it that I have good pasture, and make me lie down to rest when I have partaken of enough.

He leadeth me beside the still waters.     A sheep would as soon try to drink from a swiftly moving river as from a pond, only to be swept away and drowned.  The Lord will see to it that my thirst is slaked only from calm and safe sources.

He restoreth my soul:     At this point, we move beyond the allegory.  I  may be sheeplike, but I am human.  I have a soul.  But my soul is lacking something-- it needs restoration, and he does that for me even though he did not cause the lack.  The uniqueness of this restoration is that it has already been achieved once and for all at the cross:  The good Shepherd lay down his life for the sheep (Jn.10:14-15).  It is finished.  And yet, he reinstitutes his work's efficacy day by day.  His mercies are new every morning (Lam.3:22-23).

He leadeth me     Oh, blessed thought!  To lead is to go before.  I am afoot in a sinful world, surrounded by enemies, but he goes before me.  I will face nothing that he has not faced and conquered before i got there.  He has walked this sinful world, and suffered the death appointed to sinful men, although he himself was without sin.  Oh words with heavenly comfort fraught!  I do not have to look at the horrors that surround me, for he leadeth me:  I need only look at him in order to keep walking.

In the paths of righteousness     Righteousness, most simply put, is what is right.  The law of God defines what is right, and mankind is incapable of satisfying its demands, except for the Lord Jesus Christ in whom all the law and the prophets are fulfilled.  That is why he leads me, and why I must follow.  He leads us all, and we do not progress in single file.  There is not just one path of righteousness, but paths.  I am on my path and you are on yours, and he leads me and he leads you.  He didn't hand us each a roadmap and say, "Meet me in Heaven..."  He leads us because the many paths of righteousness diverge again and again, and mine is not for you, nor yours for me (although we may travel side by side for a time), so he did not command us to follow a route, but says, "Follow me."

For his name's sake.     This is the ego-shaker.  All this that he is doing for me is not about me.  It is about him.  It is for his name's sake.  In enjoying all his loving shepherding care and soul restoration, have I forgotten that I was made in his image and likeness?  He desires to display in me a testimony to heaven and earth of his glorious nature.  Every member of the executive cabinet in Washington, D.C. serves "at the pleasure of the President."  I exist for the pleasure of the Lord.

(continued on next page)
     

[al Hartman]

(continued from previous page)

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,     Yea means yes.  This isn't a maybe.  Not I may walk.  Yes... I walk.  But notice this:  
I walk through...  Not just into the valley of the shadow of death, but through it.  That means coming out the other end.  And it isn't really the valley of death;  it only looks that way.  It's an illusion:  the shadow of death.  Why?  Because Jesus already died the death for me that I may have eternal life in him (2Cor. 5:21).

I will fear no evil:     This is an act of will, not an episode of feeling fearful.  Feelings are fickle and not to be trusted.  I will not fear the evil...  It is a decision I make...

For thou art with me;     He not only is leading me, but he is with me.  The one who goes before me to conquer death and the grave is also with me, embracing me;  reassuring me that in the face of evil I need not fear.  Because he enables me to believe his promises, I can decide to not be afraid.  Death has no sting;  the grave presents me no threat.

Thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.     Why, look:  We haven't left the shepherd allegory behind after all.  (Don't I feel sheepish).  The nature of the shepherd is one of love.  He is delighted that his creatures need him-- delighted to fulfill all their needs with himself.  The man in me elects to follow his leading, but the sheep will not.  Sheep cannot be merely led.  They must be herded.  Although my every necessity is provided for in Christ, yet I will always need him to be that provision.  So in addition to leading me, he uses his rod to prod me forward when I balk, and his staff to pull me back from danger, should I be tempted or just plain stupid.  I will not resent his use of rod and staff, because I am what I am and he does what he must:  His rod and his staff are comforts to me.

Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies:     We are accustomed to the idea of inviting the Lord to come in and sup with us
(Rev. 3:20).  We hang plaques in our homes proclaiming him to be "the unseen Guest at every meal."  But the concept here far exceeds such thought:  Here the Lord is preparing to serve me in HIS house, at HIS table.  Even as i tread through this wicked world, surrounded by the host of foes who desire to destroy my body and soul, Jesus Christ is setting the table, inviting me in...

Thou anointest my head with oil;     In twenty first century America we don't hold to this image as a sign of respect.  The phrase may bring to mind the picture of a can of 30 weight engine lubricant being dumped upon me.  In King David's day the oil of anointing was not a petroleum product, but a food derivative and, in its purest form, the evidence of great wealth.  To anoint someone's head with such was to bestow tremendous honor.  Imagine!  My Lord so honors me!

My cup runneth over.     The bible refers to the cup and to wine in a variety of ways, so let us retain the context of this phrase:  My Lord has brought me to a feast, in my honor, in his own house.  My cup's running over signifies abundance.  This feast is well represented in Psalm 104:15.  The wine in my cup makes my heart glad, the oil with which my head is anointed makes my face shine, and the food strengthens my heart.  This is not a prediction of some future sweet bye and bye.  It is all stated in the present tense;  a reality of which I partake today;  now.

Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life:     The topic here is the goodness and mercy of God, and these are not subject to speculation.  Surely means definitely, absolutely, undoubtedly, without question.  It is a guarantee.  Will I experience days, or longer periods, when there is no evidence of God's goodness and mercy to be found?  Of course.  Why?  Because the promise is that goodness and mercy shall follow me, not that they will be seen or felt.  Thanks be to God that his promises are inviolable, because there may be many times that I am long gone from the scene before his goodness and mercy appear, as they surely shall.  But when I think about it, I'm in a wondrous place:  The Lord is in front of me, leading;  he is with me, comforting;  and his goodness and mercy follow me, as a rear guard.  Could I possibly be more secure, be safer?  And the guarantee is good for the life of the product (me):  all the days of my life.

And I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever.     There are so many people, and I was one of them, who believe that after the acceptance of Christ, the Christian life consists of going to church, making a living, raising a family, retiring, dying and finally going to heaven.  Certainly there are much worse ways to live, but the Lord has so much more at hand for those who will partake of him:
       He loves me.
       He provides for my every need.
       He restores my soul.
       He leads me.
       He reassures me and allays my fears.
       He is with me.
       He motivates, protects, and comforts me.
       He fetes me in his own house,
             strengthening, honoring, and gladdening me.
       He follows me with his goodness and mercy.
       Having brought me into his house, he has me stay    
             forever.
Most wonderful of all, none of all this has to be waited for.  I can freely access all he has done for me right now and throughout my life on earth (Eph.1:3, 2:6).  Yes, I can anticipate spending eternity in a glorious new replacement for my tired old sin-tainted body, but in spite of my present limited body, I can partake of his divine nature every moment of every day (2Peter 1:2-4).  ...no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly (Psalm 84:11).  

I have "known" the twenty third psalm since I was a small boy.  
Now I am learning it.

al Hartman

[Mark Kisla]

Dear Saint ALfonzo,
This is 2 mornings in a row you have made my day with your post....your on a roll Al....please feel free to keep rolling if you are inclined too.
 Mark
 PS.       27 years ago this month I was witnessing with you  on Van Nuys Blvd, you were sharing the Good News to a professed satanest and later a group of guys that were following 'Maya'. You were encouraging to listen to then, you have'nt lost your touch.

[Mark C.]

 I'm glad I spotted this thread!
   Thinking about grace is a feast for the heart and mind!  I have enjoyed the discussion here and would like to add a thought.
   When I think about how grace works in our lives and what it produces in our lives I am drawn to consider the Gospel encounters between Jesus and the needy individuals that crossed His path.  
    Most found healing from physical ailments, but there were others who made special discoveries into who this Jesus was and what he was about to do on the cross.
   There is only one of these encounters that is mentioned in all four Gospels and that is the "sinner woman" who washes Jesus' feet with her tears and hair.  The Pharisees, disciples, and Judas all had negative comments (each pericope mentions a different aspect of this same encounter) and Jesus rose to the Womans defense for her "act" as being of the highest value.  Of so much value that Jesus promised the memory of it would last wherever the Gospel would go.
   The Pharisees condemened the action of the Woman because it came from an individual with an open reputation as a sinner.
    The Disciples and Judas thought the behavior of the Woman was a waste of valuable assets for an emotional show. (The Disciples seemed to care for the poor and Judas for the loss of profits for his own use.)
   Jesus understood that the Woman had a transformation of heart that overflowed with gratitude.  This seems to be the work that is of the highest value and most reflective of the work of grace in the life.  The Woman did what she did with the understanding that Jesus was going to the cross to completely forgive her sin and accept her as His beloved child for eternity.
   Those who are forgiven much, love much; and it is from that much love that the Gospel light shines most brightly from our hearts' into a dark world.  This is grace and it's work in the heart and what becomes His workmanship in us.
    The Woman was not transformed into a super Christian with amazing strength of will, acts of faith, self sacrafice, committed service, a devoted prayer warrior, Bible scholar, etc.  Nor is she remembered for any of these things.  She was remembered, more often than any other, as a grateful sinner who poured out her tears and "wasted" costly perfume on Jesus' feet.
    The simple honest sinner Woman understood grace better than any individual (it would seem) and Jesus appears to have placed the highest value on the insights of the Woman that caused her to be so thankful and passionate.
   How wrong, and proud we are to think that we can "do" anything to merit heaven (even as Christians) for it is Christ in us, the hope of Glory!  Such pride tells against our own hard hearts and haughty view of self.
    "Thank you Lord for saving my soul,
           Thank you Lord for making me whole,
      Thank you Lord for giving to me,
            Thy great salvation so rich and free."
                              God Bless,   Mark
     

[Joe Sperling]

Al----

Thanks for the encouraging expose' on Psalm 23. I wanted to share something I saw a long time ago that really blessed me at the time. It's a small thing but actually huge in it's teaching. In John Chapter 6 Jesus feeds the 5000 people. But it contains two simple sentences that say everything about who Jesus Christ is.

John 6:10 says "And Jesus said 'Make the men sit down".
Now there was much grass in the place".

What a beautiful fulfilment of "He MAKETH me to lie down
in GREEN PASTURES".  That simple sentence "Now there was much grass in the place" was put there for a specific reason. And that is to tell all of us that Jesus Christ is Jehovah, the Great Shepherd of the sheep Who makes his sheep to lie down in green pastures.

How could any of us stray so far as to get away from that Great Shepherd of the sheep? It's a blessed thought to know that we are daily herded and kept close to the Good Shepherd of the sheep.


--Joe