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Author Topic: Is the Church Growing up?  (Read 6735 times)
Peacefulg
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« on: August 20, 2003, 10:30:38 pm »

Just a quick question regarding this article (http://www.washtimes.com/culture/20030814-085130-5080r.htm) about people in general.

Do you think the Church in general is suffering in the same way?

Lots of leaders truly do not allow people to grow up into spirtual adults, but keep them spiritual babes.   Angry

Cheers,
George
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Arthur
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« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2003, 10:31:25 pm »

I agree with the article.  Growing up, my parents were my example and I figured that I would being like them.  My dad was 20 and my mom was 18 when they were married.  They had three kids by the time my dad was 25.  He began milking cows and taking care of all the work on the dairy farm when he was 15 because his dad fell ill.

That was my standard.  When I first started going to Junior College, I found that there were people who were 23 years old and still living at home and still going to JC.  I was appalled.  I left home when I was 19 after 2 years of  JC and I thought that even that was a bit late.

At that time I joined the assembly.  I thought it was great and it seemed to hold being a real man as a value.  But after a few years, it turned out to be the biggest growth inhibitor of them all--especially in Fullerton.

I'm still trying to shake that influence they put in my head to be wimpy and subservient.

Getting back to that article, I think what it boils down to is that maturity is not a value in our society any longer.  People don't care that their lives don't amount to anything meaningful.  Because of divorces and destroyed families they have no examples or sense of direction to know what a meaningful life is.

Pleasure has become more highly valued.  It's all about play-time.  Don't I know, I play more than my fair share of video games--and I'm 27 years old.  Man...time to rethink some things. Anyways, that's one of the reasons why I'm quitting my job and starting my own business.  I'll be too busy surviving to play, lol.
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M2
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« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2003, 10:45:09 pm »

...
At that time I joined the assembly.  I thought it was great and it seemed to hold being a real man as a value.  But after a few years, it turned out to be the biggest growth inhibitor of them all--especially in Fullerton.

I'm still trying to shake that influence they put in my head to be wimpy and subservient.
...

People here say that we weren't as bad as SLO, therefore the situation here needs to be treated differently. My reply has been, "How bad is bad enough!"
However, it is interesting that you being from SLO say that Fullerton was worse. Or are you saying that?.

Marcia
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Arthur
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« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2003, 11:36:55 pm »

However, it is interesting that you being from SLO say that Fullerton was worse. Or are you saying that?.

Yes, I am saying that.  It's kinda hard to explain and other people may not agree with me, but here's how I see it.

I was in SLO from Sept 95 to June 99, working on my degree at Cal Poly.  I joined the assembly around Jan 96.
My overall impression of those three years was positive, though now I realize that the seeds of the horrible times I had later were sown during that time.  

From June 99 to June 00,  I was in Fullerton.  Fullerton...how can I say it...sucked.  Why?

1.  The assembly - the assembly in Fullerton was five times larger than the one in SLO.  There wasn't the same close-knit familiarity there.  

2.  The demographics - In SLO, many of the saints were college students-- people with a fresh perspective and in the process of growth.  
In Fullerton, a good portion of the saints were people who have been there many years (some even 30), well past their college days.  The disease of the assembly had taken hold in their lives.  I tell you, I've seen a ghastly thing - men walking, talking, breathing, but nothing really there, just a shell.  Gave me shivers.

3.  The leadership - there were no opportunities for young bucks to develop and take on something new.  The well-past-their-prime leadership basically sat on everything and controlled it.  Young people were seen as and expected to be inept and so they were.  Think about it this way--e.g. who ran the campus work?  In SLO, the students did everything--it was their baby.  In Fullerton, two old guys by the name of Jim and Tim nutured the same baby for 30 years and it was that stunted.

4.  The henchmen -  What do you call someone who exists in the purgatory that is in-between assembly leadership and being a common peon saint?  What do you call someone who is constantly under pressure to please the leadership on penalty that they will never rise above their status and forever be banished to aforementioned purgatory?  What do you call someone who vents the frustration of their deplorable state by attempting to demonstrate what they consider to be leadership qualities in bullying the common peon saints? What's another name for corporate "yes"-men?    Yes, you guessed it--
doork-eepers.  

5. environment - SLO is a nice country-type small town area.  Fullerton is in smog-choking, people-everywhere-you-look, concrete, barbed-wire, gang-infested Southern California.


In SLO, I loved meeting with my brethren.  In Fullerton, on more than one occasion I had to leave the room and go into the bathroom to just sit there because I have never felt so sick in my life.  I felt like someone was raping my ears. I didn't want to hear another word of that sewage-scrapings.  But I felt stuck--to die or worse, just melt into the puddle of nothingness that everyone else there had disovled into.

If I can just say a word about David and living in his house.  It was a far different experience living at David's house than living in Fullerton.

David was an ornery man.  He knew it; we all did.  He didn't attempt to pretend to be caring or nice to get what he wanted.  He just ripped you a new one every once in a while and then left you alone.  There was a certain liberation in that.  It was just straight pain that could be taken at face value. David was on a military kick at the time, and his expectation was that we'd be men, do things with no mistakes and do it on our own.  

After leaving David's house, I felt like I could conquer the world because there wasn't any suffering worse that I hadn't taken like a man.   I still had my resolve.

In Fullerton, they expected you to be like a cross between a dog, a jellyfish and a houseboy.  No harsh pain just dull, poisonous control. After leaving Fullerton, I felt like a no-good, used up piece of garbage.  

When I got back to SLO in Aug of 99, the whole group had fallen downhill and was primed for collapse (half the group had already left).  They were trying to keep it alive by, get this, seeking direction from Fullerton a la Mark Miller, Dan Notti, Tim G., etc.  Sheep were hurting and bleeding all over the place and all Jeff L. could do was put a brazen look on his face and say how we needed to keep abiding in the vine, stay in the boat and other nonsense like that.    

Well, there's my take on it. Smiley
Arthur
« Last Edit: August 21, 2003, 11:44:49 pm by Arthur » Logged
Uh Oh
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« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2003, 12:44:53 am »

Quote
3.  The leadership - there were no opportunities for young bucks to develop and take on something new.  The well-past-their-prime leadership basically sat on everything and controlled it.  Young people were seen as and expected to be inept and so they were.  Think about it this way--e.g. who ran the campus work?  In SLO, the students did everything--it was their baby.  In Fullerton, two old guys by the name of Jim and Tim nutured the same baby for 30 years and it was that stunted.



Top Five Reasons Tim Geftakys stayed on Assembly Campus Work Duty:

5.  College Campus are known to have closer access to fast food stands.

4.  Hoping the football coach would see him, mistake him for an offensve lineman and invite him to the training table to eat.

3.  Being on the campus leadership meant at least one weekend a year away to speak at campus conference, which meant one free weekend away from his wife - which is like a three month vacation in itself.

2.  Hoping the wrestling coach would see him, mistake him for a Sumo Wrestler, and invite him to the training table to eat.

1.  Babes, babes and more babes - obviously!!!
« Last Edit: August 22, 2003, 12:45:18 am by Uh Oh » Logged
M2
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« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2003, 05:58:08 am »

...
3.  The leadership - there were no opportunities for young bucks to develop and take on something new.  The well-past-their-prime leadership basically sat on everything and controlled it.  Young people were seen as and expected to be inept and so they were.  Think about it this way--e.g. who ran the campus work?  In SLO, the students did everything--it was their baby.  In Fullerton, two old guys by the name of Jim and Tim nutured the same baby for 30 years and it was that stunted.
...
Arthur,

Earlier this year I read your testimony posted on GA.com and was very saddened by it, only to realize today that you are only 27 years old. Sad  Many of the brethren have not made things right with those they have hurt and 'spiritually abused'(some have), and yet they say they have repented. OK, so maybe they missed apologizing to some individuals, but where is the fruit of repentance in their recent choices and decisions.  Huh

Those 'experienced' brethren sure knew how to make us dumb sheep feel like dumb sheep.  There was always someone in assembly Antioch, or assembly Ephesus, or... who could do things much better than we could, so many gave up on making the effort. We just didn't and couldn't 'measure up'.

Lord bless,
Marcia
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