POST ASSEMBLY: Unrepentant, idiots and confused

[Gordon]

After a year's worth of considerations, interviews and discussion I think this is a worthwhile thread.

DISCLAIMER: BY NO MEANS do I take lightly the harm that has been inflicted upon the individuals in the assembly and those on this board. The issue is not the harm done to you or I in this thread. The issue is: WHAT IS THE ULTIMATE PLACE we want to bring these people to?

****

It deals with people who continues to hold onto assembly practices and our interaction with them. There is a multitude of different responses, and perspectives, but the biggest one I think we all need to keep in mind is this:

WHAT IS THE END GOAL that we desire for people ultimately?

Do we want people to transition into a normal Christian existence, or do we readily admit we want to take a few whacks at people before they come to a place where God can transform their minds? I've read a few articles on here, and a few threads & I will say: your words will utlimately cut yourself off from any form of communication to help people see out of this muck. You can slam someone so long, before you're wasting your time and energy because they won't listen to you. It's great to have other people who share the same opinion agree with you but there's little point in that because you're already talking to people who share the SAME perspective. Of course, it's your freedom to do so, and for some of us it's part of the recovery process of getting the assembly muck out of our system.

I like to add my two cents on dealing with the 'types' who holds onto Galatianism and those who left it. The ultimate goal for me is 'to help those recover and transition into a normal Christian life that brings God glory'.


1) The truly unrepentant and stubborn
Oh, WE KNOW who these people are. They are George and David Geftakys. Those who refuse to admit to any sin, and stubbornly refuses to repent. MY PERSPECTIVE: I pray that they repent, but I give little quarter to these people who refuse to come to the light. These are the worse lot. They left a wake of destruction in their paths and they leave the poor schmucks who continues to defend them holding the doggie bag. This class of people are amazing - claiming to be something they are not and then ruining hundreds of people's lives with their doctrine and preaching is an absolute disgrace to God. Lives of hypocisy and cruelty. Truly the showman in a circus.

MY DEALINGS: Just pray with them, but if they ever come across my paths - no 'dear George' it will be whipping out the hammer of fire and just laying in thick for them to repent.


2) The confused and unrepentant

These are the ones I pity. Some formerly in leadership, but ultimately this needs to be a mixture of firmness and encouragement. You have to play 'good cop/bad cop' with these people. I despised some verbal wranglings and shepherding techniques of some people in the assembly because it was cruel. They simply wanted to crush you, and humble you. Left you no room for recovery. It was humiliating and I don't want to repeat that experience/perspective even to these ones. We came out of the assembly seeing the errors and if we wish to make a full recovery we must be bold to speak the truth with firmness, but at the same time ask: how can I help recover.

Listen, some of us will disagree with who goes into which category, and some of you have been hurt alot and you can say what you will about someone. BUT ultimately we have to ask ourselves: WHAT IS MY END GOAL FOR THIS PERSON? I like the fact some of you implied: you wish some to burn and pay for the crimes. I DO APPRECIATE candor and honesty. We're not being bullish about anything here with wishy-washy words. Everyone was too wishy-washy hiding behind smoke mirrors before one another and God in the assembly -- the result is we ended learning how to be players in the stage of life while inside we were dying. The one thing neat about this board is you can vent, and no one is going to shut you up for it because you're being real, but if you don't want a recovery for an individual let's not mince words either.

I do want recovery, and I can tell you that you cannot slam or rip a person's character and expect them to change. In fact, you actually push them to justified their position with this 'persecution' complex. In an unwittingly manner you are helping them become a stronger 'assembly' person. An unbalanced perspective will polarized the person to be MORE assembly in nature. I found this to be true...because my line of communication with one person is open. SURE, they are stubborn and messed up BAD, but we have open communication to where I can be firm and just slap some sense when it's needed.

Trust me...I learned this with one friend emailing for over 3 years when he was wallowing in self pity and didn't return one email or phone call, but it was a good cop/bad cop that eventually won him over.

MY DEALINGS: Firmness and true shepherding.

3) The idiots / don't stand for the assembly or against it
This one truly fustrates me. I know a few ones like this. When you talk to them they have happy fellowship with you and they listen to you reason with them about the assembly errors. They nod, smile and say little, or they say alot. These are the people who want the benefits of freedom but cling to their importance through the assembly. One doorkeeper I know is so ingrained into it he's afraid to come out of it because he's doing it for so long.

I know one of these who called a brother the 'worker of the devil'...this 'worker of the devil' was a dear former leading brother who stood up to George and many others and got roasted. (It wasn't Brent, but hey Brent got roasted and stood up for good things - won't forget that BT). BY THE WAY, I really wanted to march up to that doorkeeper and just SHRED him for it...but it won't do any good because he's a schmuck. You talk to him and he will fustrate you to NO END.

MY DEALINGS on this class: I tried to reason with you, but you don't stand for anything. You make your bed, you lie in it.

Nothing kills me as much as a pitiful worm who doesn't stand for anything. I can deal with the unrepentant because you stand for something -- we have something to work with because it gives clearity to my perspective and approach. I might not like it but at least we got something to work with. THIS class of people...you make your bed, you lie in it.

LAST COMMENTS: By the way, I've been a pretty mellow guy in all this. I did alot of listening, but don't get me wrong, I will whip out the hammer to pound some sense into people. I never want to see the assembly mentality, perspective, and idealism repeated, but I think prayerful wisdom is needed. And yes, I've whipped out the hammer face to face to some people.


4) The confused
Just be their friends. Listen to them and do almost everything the OPPOSITE you were taught in the assembly. These are the people who wanted out of the assembly but have a hard time recovering from it. BE PATIENT. BE KIND. BE LOVING AND BE THEIR FRIENDS.





MY HOPE: Ultimately, I want the assembly to be a distant memory.

I want the Geftakys to truly repent and do a 'repentant tour' where they visit every assembly and apologize with true humility to everyone. I mean a tearfuly, heart felt repentances. I want the children of the Geftakys to grow up healed, and living normal lives. I want Judy G to realize what a remarkable woman she is for all she endured. I want everyone leading brother to realize his full worth is found in Christ alone. I want all the people from the SLO assembly to just totally shine for Christ.

I believe what the enemy has eaten God will restore. We have one life to life folks...let's make the best of it for God.

Thanks for reading, and your thoughts, comments are always welcomed.

[al Hartman]

Gordon,

     Eloquently and succinctly said.  As one who has at various times been a participant in each of the classes you outline (stubborn, confused, idiot; separately both unrepentant and repentant), I deeply appreciate your perspective, which I see as being one of mercy with no nonsense.  Love, be it gentle or "tough," must be the energizing factor; prayer must be the groundwork.

     I have nothing to add to your thoughts.  Just posting to say Thank you.

al Hartman

[M2]

Gordon,

I agree that the Lord must give wisdom in our communication with each individually.  There is no one-size-fits-all rule.  I am of the opinion that most who remain sympathetic at this point i.e. after more than a year later, are, generally speaking, in the category of having had their wake-up call and refusing to heed to it.  However any communication with the sympathetic must be done with caution as they are adept at twisting the Scriptures and convincing the unwary of their point of view.  GG has succeeded in holding SF/Sac/Riverside sympathetic to him; and these people, ie all who remain assembly sympathetic, have been discipled by him whether they like to admit it or not.

Lord bless,
Marcia

[Gordon]

Marcia,

I agree with you. Some good points.

**

FURTHER COMMENTS

The freedom that some people choose and why some do not is liken to 'readiness'.

The first movie of the triology, MATRIX is an excellent example.

Morpheus, "Some people are not ready to be unplugged." Morpheus was referring to an artificial existence that the general population was under. That artificial existence sometimes is more comfortable than the real world. The real world was harsh, and ugly.

For some it is difficult to distinguish their worth apart from the assembly. As with one character, Cypher, the reality was too difficult to grasp he tried to go back because he wasn't ready to be 'unplugged'.

Timing, growth, and revelation is by the grace of God. Doesn't matter who planted, or who watered --- God causes the growth.

I found it amazing that some people CANNOT cling to Christ alone. There is a constant need to cling to whatever thread of existence that was once there. The transition and revelation of living in a 'altered Christian reality' can be very difficult to grasp because of the constant stimulation, doctrine, and behavorial environment where we existed.

Change itself is difficult. The operation and environment created by George G was very regimented. Think of how easy it was to plan your year. Seminars, workshops, meetings. Very much the same.

The reality that people cling on is ultimately of their own choice. I do believe in free will, whether a person wants to place themselves into great harm or not. However, some people are not ready because they have misplaced their base values (see Maslov's about the hierachy of human need). Only by spiritual power and God's grace will this happen.

I've found the singular focus to help people out is this:
FOCUS exclusively on the person of Jesus Christ.

You ask how some people are they doing and the answer is usually centered on 'good' followed up by a series of activities regarding service, dcotrine, outreach, and works (which in itself directed by God is good). If a person cannot talk to you about the person of Jesus Christ (His character, his personal working in their lives, his love, his grace, his mercy) you will find it very easy to recognize that people who are not willing to change also have difficulty relating to people. I know an leading brother who made a healthy transition and was not suprised because he related to people so well, and many found an immediate comfort with him. It's not surprising that some of the people who have most difficulty out are the ones who have the most difficulty relating to people.

The reason is this: you have to be utterly comfortable in your own skin as a Christian to be comfortable with people The people who can love the most, are the ones who realize how much Christ loved them.

The reason is their surety in the person, and power of Jesus Christ. There's no need to 'prove' or take up a 'role' because they are so confident in the blood and person of Jesus Christ. I think it's a challenge for me too to ask myself: If I was alone on a deserted island, am I LESS of a Christian? By no means! Yet, it was driving me batty that I wasn't doing anything under the guidance of my new pastor, and thankfully I am glad he counseled me on that because it caused me to see the total reality of the Christian is the PERSON OF JESUS CHRIST. I am confident in what he can do for me, and my worth and acceptance is founded on him alone. That is why there is an inner confidence with people because you're accepted in the beloved.

You are drawn to these people from all walks of life because you know they have grace, love and truth. They are just fun to be with -- and I believe with my whole heart: all of us would LOVE to be with Christ. Christ was so loved by the Father...the intimacy of fellowship and love was so real, so much a part of our Savior it was natural that he would be an extension to be a vessel for God to express his grace, love, and mercy to people.

[Oscar]

Hi Folks,

In thinking about the folks who have stopped following GG but are still assemblyites, I have had a few thoughts which I would like to share:

1. These people still look at the world, walking with God, and the church in the same way they always did.  A minor adjustment has been made because GG "fell into sin".

So, he is out...but nothing else has changed.  They are still trying to live "the vision".

2. They still practice "deeper life spirituality".  They believe that the voice of God is a feeling they get as they read the Bible or pray.  

3. They read Plymouth Brethren books, and that reinforces their subjectivism and hypercritical, hypernarrow view of other groups and individuals.

4. They still read their Bible in the same way.  The scriptures are not seen in any context.  They deny that an understanding of the historical and cultural situations that the authors were in is at all necessary.  You just read and "listen for the voice of God", ie, wait for a feeling.

They use the "trees" approach to understanding the Bible, rather than seeing the "woods".  What I mean is that they don't see the covenantal history of the OT, nor the progressing work of God in the NT.

No, its just a few verses here, add in a couple of verses from overthere, and VIOLA!, you have the "Pattern".

(And you had BETTER be faithful to it!)

Don't expect to see much change there until something shakes the bushes again.

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

[M2]

Yup Gordon, the focus should be exclusively on the person of Jesus Christ.  "More love for Thee O Christ."  The focus instead is the 'work', their contribution, and the way they meet - which is idolatory (Hugh and Verne commented on this on another thread).  Is Christ glorified, or is the counsellor glorified?  The counsellor becomes a type of anti-christ when he/she does not direct others to Christ, but to depend on them, the counsellor.

Change itself is difficult especially since it was so drilled into us 'where shall we go...'.  The answer being that there is no where else that had the bright light and meaty messages that we had.  In reality, there are mega-churches around that are living and growing.  Sometimes we attempted to 'recruit' friends who attended these mega-churches to join our little flock, and we marvelled at their lack of vision to see what we had seen.

My family was discussing the Pharisees.  They had the Word and the Lord to guide them.  They did not recognize the Lord Jesus as their Messiah because they were expecting God to answer their prayers in a particuler fashion ie to send a 'ruler' Messiah.  They did not see the Lord for Who He was, and they had such 'gift' to sway the crowds who were saying "Hosanna..." one day, and the next week were yelling "Crucify Him!".  It was probably all that knowledge they had, and their pride which prevented them from seeking out the truth of the matter.  Reminds me of Proverbs 4:7 "The beginning of wisdom is: Acquire wisdom; And with all your acquiring, get understanding."

Yes, and the Scriptures are read to "listen for the voice of God".  So verses about the smoking flax... the recovering of lost years... and removing the poison from the stew...  always mean that God is going to recover the assembly without (or with on the West coast) GG.

Lord bless,
Marcia

[Raymond D]

Hi all,

I want to personally state for the record that what I think Jeff L has done in raising the Assembly back up is very wrong. I realize that this may be preaching to the choir. But some who are sympathetic (as opposed to abhorence, which I think the right reaction should be) to his actions don't fully understand the 'secret language' and the destructive deception of the Assembly culture.

I for one was optimistic that the 'ring' got thrown in the the fire...but I was wrong. I am comforted in the  fact that the Christian community is more aware of what is happening...and it is my intent to be clear with Christians in our circle about the evils of Assemblism.

Yes, Christ is the only answer...it is disturbing when He is rejected. What do you do when you see this?  WWJD ...note how the Lord confronted the Pharisees. Yes, there are the "Nicodemuses" in the mix...but may God give us the wisdom -- and yes, courage.

Cheers,
Ray

[Gordon]

CHANGES WITH IRAQ AND THE ASSEMBLY

Change is always difficult. There will be many obstacles, resistances, and challenges to any movement of change. This is no different than the post-assembly life and as such, consider Iraq.

Maybe the 'end of conflict' has been declared, but the rebuilding and resistance continues. There will be the critics, the nay-sayers, and detractors but as President Bush stated: NO WAY ARE WE PULLING OUT, or DETERRED by obstacles. WE WILL WIN.

All of us must have the courage to forge ahead by the grace of God. All of must abide by the convictions governing our hearts and prayerfully move forward. We must not allow fear, resistance, or challenges to discourage us. If there are wrongs we should point it out. If there are issues that needs to be taken up...bring it up.

However, in a new Iraq the goal is not about the resistance to change -  it's about a new and stable Iraq.


RESISTANCE, AND OBSTACLES ARE GOOD FOR THE END GOAL

The concerns of Iraqi resistance should not deter the end goal, but like the American soldiers learned -  road-side bombs, and mortar attacks provides invaluable lessons.

Most of us recognize the 'secret language' and 'hidden meanings' formerly used in the Assembly life.  Many United States soldiers are aware of resistance urban tactics and how to survive against it. It doesn't make it easier, but it helps them grow in their battle field knowledge. Have some of you grown in your 'battlefield' knowledge for your soul? Can you live in grace now? Do you think you'll take grace lightly here on? No, you learned something from the obstacles!  i know I did. I learned plenty.


***

THE TRUTH TAKES AWAY POWER

Let us not forget how clear it was what type of man Saddam really was when he was found hiding in a foxhole desperately trying to evade US forces. The entire Arab world was shocked to see him looking haggard like a Las Vegas bum ...without power, truth or presence.

The lessons and insights gained in the analysis of the Assembly and the errors of it is evident to all and we all will learn from it. No surprise in seeing the correlation: Once the truth of Saddam came out -- the power behind the image of the man was gone. A pathetic man hiding in a foxhole. So any resemblance to Assembly culture or perspectives shouldn't freak any of us out. Why should it? The truth takes away the power behind it. Yes, Saddam is still alive, and it's a bit freaky if you're a Iraqi informant who turned against Saddam, but the fact is Saddam is safely kept away in some nice pad with some very congenial CIA personnel. Some semblance of the Assembly will always exist, but the fact is ...it's over because the truth is out. Don't freak out folks.


KEEPING FOCUS AND THE END RESULT WILL COME

Obstacles in Iraq may come, but the person who keeps the United States focused regarding Iraq is President Bush. He keeps preaching the end result to the American public and our military personnel because it's the end result that counts. Yes, there soldiers who are seeing the resistance and the public is concerned with mounting death tolls of American soldiers, but give the president credit to envision focus all of us.

It will take time for the Iraqi people to fully understand that life without Saddam is better, and people will eventually warm up and work in cooperation with the United States. When the oil is gushing with profit, and the country is stable most of the general population will be glad to say their final goodbyes to Saddam. You can imagine three years from now when the country of Iraq becomes stable the internal security forces of the nation itself will rise up to protect the new country because it came to a place where it was worth protecting.

When people see the fruits of a vision (freedom, joy, and liberty in Christ) it's not going to be too hard to see people wave goodbye to the Assembly life.

[Gordon]

Verne,

I've read your posts, and found you to be insightful and very intelligent.  I appreciated your posts and consideration, but I wanted to clearify my position.

Regardless of our political opinions, my recent posts was not to advocate / endorse our president in any fashion. It was to draw some lessons learned from the Iraq war and rebuilding process. I agree with you that too many Christian jump on the band wagon of political 'righteousness' (look at the decline of Ralph Reed - good book recently commenting on this is by Cal Thomas - BLINDED BY THE LIGHT).

I will admit, President Bush's life is admirable because he wears his faith openly. How close of a walk he has, no one knows. For that I do admire his courage to speak openly about his faith in Christ, and granted so have previous presidents, but none have publicly called himself a 'poor wretched sinner'.  

[Tony]

NOTE:  I wrote this reply to the first volley off-line.  when signing on, I see the discussion to *clarify* but still feel like posting this reply.

Verne,

   Do you care one bit as to how your tones and opinions come across in this forum?
   
  Your responses to this topic come directly after a post by Gordon and whether intentional or not, it appears that you are directing your comments toward him.  If his comments sparked you to write this reply then I am wondering what was your objection in his message?

on: Today at 05:33:06am vernecarty wrote:

"I am nvertheless truly amazed at how many evangelical Chritians think George Bush is the messiah and that the Republican party is holy."

  This statement is silly talk and should be deemed as such.    Messiah!??   I would take offense if a comment I posted affirming something that I agreed with the President about was followed with a statement like the one above.


"The ignorance and gullibility of the American public at large is truly apalliing and it is absolutely clear that politicians in  both parties hold them
in abject contempt."

  Are you excusing yourself from us ignorant folk?   Your above statement is insulting and comes across as very self-righteous.   I do agree that most politicians do hold many of their constituents in contempt.


"Has anyone read Rchard Clark's new book Against All Enemies?"

Haven't read it and probably won't.   I have read some reviews and stuff on the web.  Have you read it?   What were the words you used..."ignorance and gullibility "   Aren't Richard Clark's position, history and motives just worth a little skepticism?

"As someone involved in labor relations for many years, it is indisputable that this president has pursued policies more hostile to working class Americans
than any in recent history."

  Can you be a little more vague?   He has definitely pursued more of a lot of things...he is certainly not a dead pan ignorant hick as he was portrayed.   I do not agree with many things that have been adopted during this administration but I have yet to see something that clearly makes me dispise the man.

" Some of you Christians are gong to be dissapointed in your false Messiah."

um...silly talk!
Anyone who puts their faith in a man will certainly be disappointed sooner or later.   Anyone who wants a Theocricy in America's Government could benefit in studying history.   I think that if we truly look at what this administration has faced in attacks abroad and from within it's own walls, you have to wonder why the magnitude of objection!
The only measuring device I have is Truth.   Do I hold it up against John Carey, George Bush, Richard Clark and media reports?   When it is applicable, I certainly do.  
...and in response to later statement...


"Hi Gordon:
I didn't mean to get so excercised about that and I do understand what you are sayng."

Sheesh, then take a deep breath next time.

"I guess it is exactly the fact that Bush has been so public about his "faith" that I was so dismayed over the way he got his Republican cohorts to clandestinely go after the overtime paid to hard-working folk in this country. I have some serious reservations about the man's integrity."

Okay, I am aware of this ammendment.  But I am not aware of the proof of the above accussations...they are very strong accusations and should be substantiated by  more than a quip on a BBS or DNC website!   If you have the evidence that is trustworthy to this claim, I'd be interested in reading it..please forgive me for my ignorance to the *fact* that George W. Bush wants to take overtime pay away from American workers no matter what he has to do to accomplish this.

" In many of his policy decisions, especially the domestic ones, he has certaily failed to adorn the doctrine IMHO."


  Gee Verne, some people would say that about some of my decisions too!...and would have grounds to do so.  Do you think that you could face the same charge?

" I really wish he had kept quiet about his faith and simply lived it."

   Hmmm, I'm not ashamed to proclaim my faith and wouldn't expect even the President to be.  He would have been pushed to proclaim his Faith if it were True, sooner or later.
  Like I said, I don't have the measuring Truth to hold to the accusations that he is purposefully  out to destroy American workers.   (Though, I do agree that many policies have had quite a lot of negative impact on the American workforce and that it is NOT all because of Democrats and Liberals)

Blessings, Tony

[Gordon]

Well, we got a healthy discussion on this thread, but I don't think I'm going to be up so late writing.


Starbucks cannot make up for needed sleep.
Thanks for the thoughts Tony and Verne.

 

[al Hartman]

  [size=12]WAIT 24 HOURS...[/size]



          (Please feel free to print the above & tape it to your monitor
                       as I did.  I got the idea from one of Verne's posts.
                       He said it works, & by golly it does.)

      al  

[M2]

Hi all,

I want to personally state for the record that what I think Jeff L has done in raising the Assembly back up is very wrong. I realize that this may be preaching to the choir. But some who are sympathetic (as opposed to abhorence, which I think the right reaction should be) to his actions don't fully understand the 'secret language' and the destructive deception of the Assembly culture.

I for one was optimistic that the 'ring' got thrown in the the fire...but I was wrong. I am comforted in the  fact that the Christian community is more aware of what is happening...and it is my intent to be clear with Christians in our circle about the evils of Assemblism.

Yes, Christ is the only answer...it is disturbing when He is rejected. What do you do when you see this?  WWJD ...note how the Lord confronted the Pharisees. Yes, there are the "Nicodemuses" in the mix...but may God give us the wisdom -- and yes, courage.

Cheers,
Ray

WWJD

 - The Nicodemuses ie the honest inquirer (even a Pharisee) received an answer from the Lord, though it did appear that the Lord expected more of Nicodemus who was a 'teacher of Israel'.  This guy came by cover of night to inquire of the Lord, but at least he came to the Lord and he did inquire.

- The Pharisee who knew the Scriptures, they knew that Messiah is to come as a ruler, and did not recognize God's answer to their prayers though He stood before them speaking the truth.  The Pharisee who did not honestly inquire, but instead "they watched Him, and sent spies who pretended to be righteous, in order that they might catch Him in some statement, so as to deliver Him up to the rule and the authority of the governor. (Luke 20:20)".  Their inquiry was "to catch Him in a saying in the presence of the people (Luke 20:26)".  And even when they did marvel at His answers, they then used it against Him at His mock trial.  What did Jesus do?  He exposed them for who they were ie hypocrites and blind guides of the blind and more, read Mat 23.

- WWJD re. Jeff L ??

....
KEEPING FOCUS AND THE END RESULT WILL COME

Obstacles in Iraq may come, but the person who keeps the United States focused regarding Iraq is President Bush. He keeps preaching the end result to the American public and our military personnel because it's the end result that counts. Yes, there soldiers who are seeing the resistance and the public is concerned with mounting death tolls of American soldiers, but give the president credit to envision focus all of us.

It will take time for the Iraqi people to fully understand that life without Saddam is better, and people will eventually warm up and work in cooperation with the United States. When the oil is gushing with profit, and the country is stable most of the general population will be glad to say their final goodbyes to Saddam. You can imagine three years from now when the country of Iraq becomes stable the internal security forces of the nation itself will rise up to protect the new country because it came to a place where it was worth protecting.

When people see the fruits of a vision (freedom, joy, and liberty in Christ) it's not going to be too hard to see people wave goodbye to the Assembly life.

If only it would actually end up this way, it would be great.  History has shown that sometimes drastic action has been the only means of delivering people from their comfort zones, even if their comfort zones have been unpleasant.  People need others to step in and 'do something about it'.  Generally speaking, mid-easterners are emotionallly driven.  Though the Iraqi people are, for the most part, very happy to be delivered from their tyrant leader, they are torn between rejoicing for their deliverance by foreigners, and their loyalty to their Arab brethren.  Logic does not come into the picture here.
Even after D-Day, there were more battles to be won to maintain the victory over the German people.  Then it took another 50 or so years for the wall to come down.
What will it take for assembly-sympathizers?  I do not know.

Lord bless,
Marcia

[Tony]

Have a great day Tony.  
Verne

LOL!  Okay, it certainly has been a great day.   Finalizing my business travel plans for the next few months and I'm looking forward to Portland OR...Tampa Bay in July doesn't thrill me though.

You can email me the  documentation on what would make you doubt the President's lack of integrity.

[Tony]

heheh...I was so clear that I wish to clarify.

"You can email me the  documentation on what would make you doubt the President's lack of integrity."

Well written there Tony...heh...<shrug>
should be: "...make you question the President's integrity"

L8r, Tony