Let's take the gloves off!

[tkarey]

With all due respect, Arthur, I hope you don't mean for David to stop posting. I enjoy the debates. I almost never post, I didn't even look at the bb for a few months, and perhaps I should get my religious/political education elsewhere, but I get a lot out of reading posts by David, Tom, etc. This sort of discussion did not happen in my home, wasn't allowed in the assembly (unless you wanted to be singled out as a troublemaker), and is never heard in evangelical circles now. For me, it's a safe place to see more than one type of opinion and helps me form my own opinions - or strengthen the ones I already have. Years ago debates and debate teams were central players in schools and politics. Now it seems ideoligacal (sp!) mudslinging is the best anyone can muster, whether its politics, religion, or anything else. (IMHO)

thanks,
Karey

[Arthur]

No, Karey,  I did not tell Mauldin he couldn't post or debate here.  He can post all he wants, I don't care.  I was refuting his claim that he is our friend--a claim he made just before giving us a link to a new "ex-Christian" website he was excited to find. He is no friend of mine or any other Christian if he's an "ex-Christian" forgetting what Christ did for us in favor of lies about how naturally good people are etc.

I enjoy a good debate--with someone who knows what they're talking about--someone who can understand points made by the person with which he is debating.

Why do I even bother explaining this to you?  If, after reading my last post in this thread, you came to the conclusion that I was telling David to stop posting then you probably won't be able to understand this explanation either.

BTW, I'm curious, what good things do you get out of reading David's posts, Karey?

[Joe Sperling]

Ex-Christian websites like the one listed below always intrigue me, because it is so hard for me to fathom someone saying "I USED to be a Christian". I, myself, have gotten very angry at God, and have "tried" not to believe in him in a "hissy fit" similar to a child who throws a tantrum and says "I don't love you anymore Mommy!!"

But inevitably I came back to the conclusion that I was being a total fool.  I believe with all of my heart that anyone who is TRULY a Christian will not come to a settled position that Christ doesn't exist or God doesn't exist. And the reason they won't is because they belong to God, and he will chasten them and lead them back to him. Just as the little child who said "I hate you Mommy!!" slowly comes to the recognition of how much they really love their "Mommy", so a true Christian, when chastened by God, comes to the recognition of how much they love God and are sorry for anything they did to hurt his generous heart.

I don't believe a true christian can become an ex-christian. Of course, just my opinion.

--Joe

[tkarey]

Arthur, thanks for your inquiry and BTW you crack me up. Of course you didn't say that. I tend to make jumps of logic and was making one there. Perhaps I could clarify what I meant by "getting a lot out of the posts".  When I read David's posts it's like listening to arguments from people I know or work with or read in the Seattle Times editorials. I get frustrated by my own lack of knowledge re:well, almost anything (!). Many times the arguments seem shallow and  full of emotional hype and edited facts. However, due to my ignorance I don't have anything sensible to say in response. If I consider anything at all it sounds so trite, like a hallmark card or sermonette of the day, even to my own ears. Mostly I keep quiet. I'd like real knowledge but it seems wherever you turn information has been sanitized to fit the writer's world view. Ok, I haven't scoured the planet so I suppose I shouldn't whine. I am reasonably intelligent - more or less, have managed so far at least, but my lifelong education revolved mostly around being a caregiver (except that old accounting degree that currently gathers dust).

So, Arthur, do you have any recommendations ie: world politics, middle-east history,  american politics?? I'm game.  

Dear David, I have been on an ex-christian website. Don't know if it's the one you reference or not. It made me very sad and seemed so dark (boy, that's an assembly word, huh?). Most of the complaints dealt w/bad experiences or the ugly history of organized religion. I wish org. religion could give a better report. I  wish I didn't feel like God abandoned me in an evil system like the assembly. How could a loving God do that? Those are the sorts of issues that have given me pause. How could He allow my sister to be molested from the age of 3-5? There is so much in our lives we don't have control over - what timeline we live in, the family we come from, our temperment, etc. and that vulerability has made me want to rage at times. One thing that has helped me is when God (after a temper tantrum of mine) said He is the remedy of sin, not the author of it. THese things are the result of sin throughout the centuries. I know God loves me and that keeps me, even if it's by a thread sometimes!

Karey

[Arthur]

Joe, right on the money, they never were in the family, just strangers.  These people have probably never studied the Bible in depth and are just ex-practioners of some particular denomination.  They probably don't even know what a real Christian is, since they've never been one themselves--so how can they be "ex-Christians"?

Karey, there was a time when I thought I should try to understand everyone. Those were the days in college when I was being fed that liberal crap about multi-culturalism, tolerance and exploring the so-called "humanities".  Today I see that, as the Bible always has stated, I need to cling to what is good and hate what is evil.

Don't get me wrong, I believe that being educated is a good thing, but not the way the sick perverts in the ACLU see it. I don't need to embrace garbage and pretend to understand it, love it or practice it.

As a Christian, the primary source of wisdom for us is of course the Bible.  Everything else that we may learn must be scrutinized under its light and guidance.  
I don't have to be able to identify with a Muslim or think like a Buddhist or empathize with pedophiles, as the far left would have me and every college student do.
We have a solid rock, Karey.  You can know something with absolute clarity and assurance.  And it isn't about your IQ or talents, it's about faith.

About politics, etc. yeah I have my opinions, I hope you have your own views. It's fun for awhile but wearisome and nothing to be compared to the joy in believing in God--being able to look to a being of perfect virtue, one who loves us, is merciful, all-powerful, and holds us and the destiny of the entire universe in the palm of his hand.

Atheists don't have this.  They have nothing but death.

Arthur

[lenore]

 :)OKAY, EVERY BODY TAKES THE GLOVES OFF, THEY THEY HAVE TO DO THE HOKEY POKEY AROUND THE RING BEFORE THE BOXING MATCH RESUMES.

[al Hartman]

David,

     The guys are right-- there are no ex-christians.  To be a Christian, one must have been accepted into God's immediate personal family.  To be an ex-christian, one would have to be booted out of God's family.  God just simply doesn't do that.  You can be a former-professing-christian (an ex-pretender, as it were), but that's as close as you can get.

     Where the confusion comes in, I believe, is that people think that what they do makes them Christians, i.e. "accepting" Christ.  Nothing could be less true nor more foolish.  The element of sin has established a chasm between man and God that we are utterly unable to bridge.  It could only be, and has been, spanned from His side to ours.  By sending His Son into the world to bear the judgment and penalty of our sin, God has extended to us a grace which enables us to acknowledge His love for us-- an act of which we were otherwise incapable.

     The point is that it is not our acceptance of, or actions toward, God that makes us Christians, but His acceptance of, and actions toward, us.  No mere mortal can undo what God has done.  If you are not a Christian today, David, then you simply never were, whatever you may have thought.  On the other hand, if Christ has received you into His fold-- if God in heaven has made you His son-- you can balk and struggle to your own exhaustion and it will not matter: you are His forever.  Flee to the mountains; hide yourself in the depths of the sea: He is there and you will not escape Him nor the goodness He will bestow upon you.

     You found yourself a wonderful new haven of like-minded "ex-christians," so why did you come back here to tell us about it?

     David, please listen to me:  It is less than four days until your wedding if I recall the date correctly, and here you are playing red-rover between two opposing forces.  I don't mean the websites-- there is a warfare being waged over the the destiny of your soul; over the way you'll spend the rest of your life if you are born again, or where you'll spend eternity if you aren't (yet).

     You don't have time for this!  You need to discuss in detail your complaints, first with God (whether or not you believe He's there to hear you), and then with your fiance.  IN DETAIL!  As a friend, I wouldn't willingly rain on your parade for anything, but there is far more at stake than either of us is capable of realizing, and your opinion of me is nothing in contrast to that.

     David, I have and shall continue to pray for you both...

...............................................................................................................

Karey,

     You have been a source of personal encouragement to me for a long time, but not as often as I'd like.  Hearing from you has always been solid, edifying and uplifting.  You may attribute that to its infrequency, but I believe it is because you belong to Christ and He speaks through you, as your most recent posts attest.  You have much more to offer than you seem to recognize or allow for.
     God is breathing His life into you.  I urge you to remove the mute and let the music be heard...

...................................................................................................................

Arthur,

     Please trust me, brother:  I'm smiling and in an absolutely un-assembly state of heart and mind when I ask this:  How long has it been since you truly rejoiced?

     I may be misreading you.  You could be dancing before the Lord and singing His praises even as I type this.  I just haven't seen any joy or genuine humor in your posts for a long time, and too much of the other stuff.

     Scolding you?  Not for a moment!  If you're hurting I care, and I want you to know that there is nothing that you can't say to God.  The things that most of us could (should?) say to God but don't are usually the things that we don't want to admit to ourselves, because those admissions make us feel like failures.  Most of us don't like feeling like failures.

     It's almost humorous, because if we hadn't admitted to being failures in our lost state of condemnation for sin, we wouldn't be where we are today.  But it's a long, slow process for most of us to learn that our failure is absolute, and that even after our salvation any goodness to be found in us must be owned as a gift of the grace of God and not the product of some vestige of virtue of our own.

     Were it not for the all-providing grace of God, Arthur, none of us could rejoice in anything, ever!  Go to a secret place and open up-- pour your heart out.  Christ gave up all for us-- give up all to Him.  If you feel weight upon you, it isn't because of His easy yoke & light burden!  Step into His harness and find rest to your soul.

..................................................................................................................

Lenore,

     If you aren't careful, someone will start up a line of "Lovable, Huggable Lenore" products!!!


God bless us all,
al

[tkarey]

Dear Arthur,

Excellent point. You know, for the first time in a long time I don't have a generalized unease about what I don't know and maybe I'm just wrong and how am I suppose to know what's right - maybe I should just rollover for whoever thinks they're right. There really is a source of Truth. Despite everything I do still believe the Bible, that's why I avoid it like the plague sometimes. Thank you.

Al, I was glad to read when you mentioned you wandered for 20 years. Made me think there's hope for all of us. Thank you for your kind words. That explanation to David was very cool, how refreshing to hear - again - that it isn't how well we meet expectations but what has already been accomplished on our behalf.

David, since I probably won't post for awhile again (going back under my rock! ) congratulations and God Bless you.

C U all,
Karey

[Joe Sperling]

Al---

Great post!!!   Thanks for the very encouraging words!! We all need to hear them over and over again.

--Joe

[lenore]

 :DJuly 8th: 2:09 pm:
========================================
"""
Lenore,

    If you aren't careful, someone will start up a line of "Lovable, Huggable Lenore" products!!!  


God bless us all,
al""""

=========================================


DEAR AL:

THAT WOULDNT BE SO BAD WOULD IT.

I am more rested to day , after the thunderstorm quit, so Missy could stop trying to hid in my skin, panting and shaking.  

Thanks:

Lenore

[Mark C.]

Hi Everyone!

  I was reading, trying to catch up on missed posts, and discovered that I had not answered Marcia's post re. having political discussion on an Assembly BB.

  Recovery from my Assembly past was hastened by trying to learn to think for myself, vs. trying to join myself to a party line.  Conservative vs. liberal political arguments tend to be like what Karey described as a "debate" format, where skilfull arguments win the day.  Each side tends to demonize the other side via caricatures (like political cartoons) that are not truthful.

  One such example would be:  all liberals are as wacky as Michael Moore and all conservatives are Nazis.  Of course, this just is not true, and as Jem stated it destroys any meaningful dialogue.

  Debate seeks mastery via argument of an opponent and I do not consider poor wounded souls from the Assembly as my opponents; even one's with seriously damaged (destroyed?) faith like David Mauldin.  I do not consider David to be a dangerous wolf, though terribly misguided, because it is obvious to everyone that the positions that he defends are clearly wrong, and just as clearly a result of what GG and company did to his soul.

  We can go to many places and debate conservatism vs. liberalism, but there is only one BB that I know of where exassembly folks can come together and find a place to heal.  The truth is essential, but not for mastery in argument over the weak and damaged; rather love, the desire to build up, must be the constant companion of our discussion.  

  For the true wolf in sheeps clothing it is loving to clearly expose them, as we don't want any of God's little one's to be injured by them, but I see no such malice in David Mauldin's posts; only the angry reactions of a seriously damaged soul.  GG will have a lot to answer for before the Throne of God for this and so much more!!

                                              God Bless,   Mark C.  

 

[al Hartman]

     Mark's post points to one of my favorite aspects of this BB:  spiritual recovery.  Little wonder, seeing that I can trace my own recovery to these pages.

     He  is 100% correct in identifying the factors that motivate political debate, and those that we work to let dominate the spirit of this BB.  I will extend the discussion of both categories a little further:


1. The Will To Defeat.     Those who have read the BB thread "Let's Keep Arguing" will understand that the will to defeat, rather than to help, our peers is destructive.  The point of proper discussion is not to win, but to get at the truth, regardless of the personal cost to self.  Such character is absolutely noble, but it is not natural.  It only exists in its true state in the character of the person of Jesus Christ, and is manifest in the lives of those whom He indwells.

     The quest to win the argument at all costs is fundamental to worldly politics, but it has its roots in sinful human nature.  It is the instinct of self-preservation in fallen and godless humankind, and is foundational to all the pain and grief that abounds in the world we know.  It is expressed at every level of human existence, and is the reason we have to teach our children how to be gracious winners, respectful losers, and to not cheat.


2. The Will To Love.     God works in you, both to will and to do His good pleasure.  It is as much an act of will to love as it is to "win."  The immeasurable difference between the two is in their resources to succeed.

     The will to conquer is carried out by every device of which the clever human mind is capable, and sometimes given a boost by spiritual forces violently opposed to both Christ and humanity.  Often our "helpers" would be our destroyers.

     The will to love has access to all the power and authority of the Godhead.  Christ's own great love with which He loved us is the greatest resource in the universe for overcoming the destructive tendencies of ungodliness.  The natural man can, at best, attempt or pretend to love "for," or "on behalf of" Christ, and will always fail at it.  But those who live by the faith of the Son of God can submit themselves to Christ's love, allowing Him to love others through us.


3. Knowing the Difference.     On the face of it, one might think that the contrast between good and evil, right and wrong, would be stark black and white.  But for that very reason, one of the most basic tactics of the enemy of our souls is to blur the lines.  Nowhere is this more prevalent than in defining love.

     Innumerable volumes have been written on the subject of love, by people at many strata of society, intellect, and spirituality.  The result is a muddle of overlapping concepts which an army of Einsteins could not formulate.  As always, mankind seeks to conquer;  in this case love, by understanding it.  But the love of God, which passes understanding (exceeds knowledge) will not be conquered by the folly of humanity.

     Anyone who spent any time at all in an assembly must have known that we all "loved" one another.  Worship was performed in love.  Meetings were conducted in love.  Our labors and offerings were received in love.  Stewardships were assigned, morning and evening times enforced, exhortations pronounced, discipline meted out, all in "love."  And since being delivered from that awful bondage, we are coming to recognize how very unloving so much of it was.  Some devastatingly carnal and sinful things were done under the cover of large labels that said LOVE.

     For many of us, as Christians wanting to love God and our fellow saints, a present dilemma exists.  As ex-assemblyites, we once had to read those blasphemous labels repeatedly in every phase of our spiritual pusuits.  The world calls it "brainwashing" or, more contemporarily, "mental conditioning."  Told often enough (far too often) that black is white and white is black, we became confused, seeing only variegated greys.

     Our paltry English word "love" doesn't begin to describe the various biblical forms it purports to identify, nor is that my purpose in this post.  Love affects us emotionally, intellectually and, most importantly, spiritually.  With the help of the Holy Spirit, the references incorporating "love" can, by their context, communicate God's meanings to us, and we can and will see the love of God shed abroad in (our) hearts and minds.  This pursuit belongs on the "A" list in our prayers and meditations.  Ask... Seek...

God bless us all,
al Hartman