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Author Topic: New Earth/Old Earth  (Read 53059 times)
Andrea Denner
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« on: March 07, 2003, 01:24:51 am »

Please continue talking about this.  I have enjoyed reading the discussion.

Andrea
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David Mauldin
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« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2003, 01:37:13 am »

There is way too much evidence to support an old" earth.  Unless you argue that God created it that way, there is no way the traditional theory holds.
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Joe Sperling
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« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2003, 02:10:53 am »

Andrea---

I enjoy talking about it also. Although it has no importance in regards to Salvation, etc., it's a fascinating subject to ponder. I'm glad you started another thread. I said I was going to keep my mouth shut, but I think I'll share a little bit more. I've read several books that say there is a parenthesis so to speak inbetween verse 1 and verse 2 in Genesis. It does seem a bit strange that it would say "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" and then state "and the earth was without form and void". Despite what Arthur has stated several theologians have said that the Hebrew word seems to connotate "became without form and void". Remember, it never mentions the creation of Lucifer when referring to the creation of the heavens and the earth. It's all conjecture for sure, but several theologians have stated that God created the earth, but someone destroyed it, or laid waste to it. It could be associated with the fall of Lucifer. Remember, he was a cherubim, possibly assigned to the earth--but he sought to garner praise for himself--was this praise solely from angels? Or was it possibly from some other creation right here on earth? When he fell either he laid waste the earth or maybe God himself did in judgement. We know that Lucifer is called "The Lord of this world" and seems to have some right in regards to this world and it's inhabitants.In Jeremiah chapter 4:23 it says "I beheld the earth, and, lo. it was without form and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and hills moved lightly. I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and the birds of the heaven were fled. I beheld, and , lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord, and by his fierce anger." If this is referring to the earth when the Spirit of God again visited it and came upon the face of the waters(and I believe it is due to the way the Lord uses the same words "I looked upon the earth and behold it was without form and void and to the heavens, and there was no light")
then there must have been birds beforehand or they could not have "fled" as God states. In this scenario God was "re-visiting" an earth that had been laid waste, and creating again--but this time creating man. Lucifer already existed--
he was in the garden very quickly to tempt man and hold onto the earth that he felt was his to begin with. Remember when he tempted Jesus he said that he would give Jesus anything in the world he wanted--implying he held some right to it. As I mentioned in another post, read John Barnhouse's book "The Invisible War"---it is a very interesting book, but filled with far more than conjecture--there are many things in the book to help with your walk--in regards to warfare, etc. I believe this "gap" in time can explain much in regards to how old the earth really is. When we look at the stars WE KNOW that many of them are light-years and light years away. We are seeing light that may have left that star a million years ago. The Universe is very old, and we know that for a fact---if the Universe is very old, the earth itself may be just as old. Another good book that deals with this is "The Fingerprint of God" by Hugh Ross. I find the whole thing to be very interesting, and exciting in a way. there are many things the Bible doesn't tell us---but may give us a glimpse, a very small glimpse---enough to make you wonder. And there's nothing wrong with that or God wouldn't have given us imaginations.

Take care,  Joe
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moonflower
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« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2003, 03:45:46 am »

Has anyone read "Earth's Earliest Ages" by Pember? It's a great book written by a godly man and full of scripture. I gave it to someone else to read, so I can't quote anything right now, but it answers a lot of questions and is worth the reading.  
I do not believe that evolution disproves the existence of God or the infallibility of the Holy Spirit breathed scriptures. I also believe that there were men on the earth that Cain was justifiably afraid of. They may not have had the gift of language or the revelation of God that Adam's descendents had. There is also evidence of language as we know it coming on the scene at one specific time in history, and I believe that it came with God's revelation of himself to man, Adam, the new creation.
How could evolution of God's creation disprove the existence of the Creator himself? Or put man in a place to worship himself? How amazing that each cell functions the way He intends it to function, and one day even the leaves of the trees will clap their hands at Christ's appearing! It's awesome.
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Arthur
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« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2003, 04:42:26 am »

It could be associated with the fall of Lucifer. Remember, he was a cherubim, possibly assigned to the earth--but he sought to garner praise for himself--was this praise solely from angels? Or was it possibly from some other creation right here on earth? When he fell either he laid waste the earth or maybe God himself did in judgement. We know that Lucifer is called "The Lord of this world" and seems to have some right in regards to this world and it's inhabitants.

No this is not true.  Let's take a look at what the Bible says:

1.  In Exodus 20:11, the Bible says, "For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is and rested on the seventh day: wherefore God blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."           
And in Exodus 31:17, the Bible says, "It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever:  for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested."

Notice the phrase, "and all that in them is" - this includes Lucifer (also known as Satan), the angels, space, rocks, trees, earth, plants, animals and man.  There is no way to state this more clearly!   Since everything was made in six days, then obviously Lucifer was also made during the those first six days.

2.  As I already mentioned in a previous post, there was neither creation nor time before God spoke creation into being.  
The Bible says, in Genesis 1:
"1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day."
It doesn't say, "a day" or "one day".  No, the Bible says, "the first day". On the first day God created light.  Obviously, there was no time--no billions of years each consisting of days--before the first day. Therefore Satan, the dinosaurs and everything else were created sometime on or after the first day.

3. The Bible makes no mention of the specific timing of God's creation of Lucifer or the angels in the Genesis account.  However, the Bible contains references to Satan as one of the sons of God in the book of Job.  And in Job 38:4-7 we read: "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"
The Bible says that the sons of God, which includes Satan, were present when God laid the foundations of the earth, and they shouted for joy. This clearly shows that Satan was created before God laid the foundations of the earth.  The "foundations" probably refer to the "land" appearing in Gen 1:9, the account of the third day of creation, therefore Satan was created on or before the third day.  

4.  Eze. 28
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.   

The Bible says in Eze 28:13, and 15 that God created Satan.  Satan is a created being.  Since the Bible says that all of creation was created in six days (Exo20:11), and that Lucifer is a created being, therefore Lucifer must have been created during the six days and not billions of years earlier (which did not exist, as stated in point #2.
We also see that Satan was in the garden of Eden, in an unfallen state.  This invalidates the claim that Satan fell during the fabricated billion years before Gen 1:2, since the Garden of Eden wasn't created until after Gen 1:2.
      

5.  So when did Satan fall? We have already established that Satan was created either on the first, second or third day.  
In Isa 14:13, we have the record of the words of Satan at the time of his fall. "For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
And in Isa 14:14, he said "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High." Since there were no clouds until the second day, Satan could not have fallen before this time. Since there were no stars until the fourth day, he could not have fallen before day four.
Also, the Bible says in Gen 1:31 that God "saw every thing that he made, and behold, it was very good."  If Satan fell before this time, God could not have said that. So Satan fell sometime after the sixth day.

In Gen 5:3, we read "And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:"
From this statement we can deduce the following:
from the time of the sixth day until the 130 years later, when Seth was born, we know the following occurred:
-Satan fell
-Adam and Eve fell as a result of Satan's temptation, and were expelled from the Garden of Eden.
-Cain and Abel were born
-Cain killed Abel

Therefore Satan fell sometime between the sixth day and 130 years later.

We can limit that time down even further (by probably 20 - 50 years) by considering that facts that:
-Cain and Abel were adults at the time that Able was murdered by Cain
-Cain murdered Abel before Seth was born (since Eve said that Seth was a "replacement" for Abel)
-Cain complained to God about his punishment, saying "every one that findeth me shall slay me." And then we read that he settled in the land of Nod and there his wife gave birth to his son Enoch. So there must have been other brothers and sisters of Cain and Abel around at this time.

6.  There was no sin or death in the world until Adam was created.
The Bible says in Romans 5:
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

So you see, there is no need to speculate about Lucifer's origins, or a pre-Adamite judgement of a world that was never created.  Lucifer was created during the six days and fell some time after that.

<more to follow...>
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Arthur
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« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2003, 05:07:45 am »

<continued...part II>

Quote
In Jeremiah chapter 4:23 it says "I beheld the earth, and, lo. it was without form and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and hills moved lightly. I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and the birds of the heaven were fled. I beheld, and , lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord, and by his fierce anger." If this is referring to the earth when the Spirit of God again visited it and came upon the face of the waters(and I believe it is due to the way the Lord uses the same words "I looked upon the earth and behold it was without form and void and to the heavens, and there was no light")
then there must have been birds beforehand or they could not have "fled" as God states. In this scenario God was "re-visiting" an earth that had been laid waste, and creating again--but this time creating man.


The phrase "without form, and void" in Jer 4:23-24 is not a reference back to Gen 1:2.  In this passage the word "earth" is not a reference to the planet earth. "Earth" in this verse refers to the land of Judah, as discussed in Jeremiah 4:7, 20 & 27, and not to the past at all. These two verses, when read in the context of the whole chapter, reveal the prophet Jeremiah's insight into the coming destruction of Judah by the Babylonian armies.


Quote
Lucifer already existed--
he was in the garden very quickly to tempt man and hold onto the earth that he felt was his to begin with. Remember when he tempted Jesus he said that he would give Jesus anything in the world he wanted--implying he held some right to it. As I mentioned in another post, read John Barnhouse's book "The Invisible War"---it is a very interesting book, but filled with far more than conjecture--there are many things in the book to help with your walk--in regards to warfare, etc.

"Lucifer already existed" - see the immediately preceding post, as I already covered that the Lucifer could not have existed before the creation of the world.

Quote
I believe this "gap" in time can explain much in regards to how old the earth really is. When we look at the stars WE KNOW that many of them are light-years and light years away. We are seeing light that may have left that star a million years ago.

Recent experiments have shown that the speed of light is not constant. In fact in one laboratory experiment, they slowed light down to a halt and then released it.  Scientific evidence shows that the speed of light was much faster in the past than it is now.
Also, we have no accurate way to measure any distance beyond one hundred light years.  I can go more into detail about why that is or you can check it out here: http://www.drdino.com/cse.asp?pg=faq&specific=8

Quote
The Universe is very old, and we know that for a fact---if the Universe is very old, the earth itself may be just as old.

Not true.  Show me one piece of evidence that shows that the universe is billions of years old.

Quote
Another good book that deals with this is "The Fingerprint of God" by Hugh Ross. I find the whole thing to be very interesting, and exciting in a way. there are many things the Bible doesn't tell us---but may give us a glimpse, a very small glimpse---enough to make you wonder. And there's nothing wrong with that or God wouldn't have given us imaginations.

Take care,  Joe

"there are many things the Bible doesn't tell us."
Yes, that is true.  However, that does mean that it is open for us to conjure up and teach that which the Bible clearly says is not true.  
After reading the Bible passages that I quoted in the immediately preceeding post, tell me if the gap theory holds any water, or that it is indeed full of holes.
I do agree with you that God's creation is wonderful and awe-inspiring.  I'm glad we agree on that.  I merely want to point out that God made it in exactly the way that he said he made it, and that the Bible can be trusted.  Believing the Word of God for what it says is not contrary to thinking or conducting scientific investigations whatsoever.

Before I continue, I'd like to make a clarification.  There are valid experiements and valid discoveries being made today.  I AM NOT OPPOSED TO SCIENCE.  I am opposed to the religious belief that many scientists hold, which is the belief in evolution (not micro-evolution, but macro, chemical, cosmic, etc.) that they have not proven even once but believe in it, despite the emperical evidence, because they DO NOT want to believe in God.
Now, having said that, I'll continue.

You know, there is a reason why you and others have said that we should use our God-given brains and agree with "science" instead of just going by what the Bible says.  In this, you are implying that I, or anyone else who believes the Bible for what it says, are not using our brains.  
The reason why you say this is because that's what people have told you.  I'm sorry that this has happened to you. I'm trying to help you and others recover from this.    

Those who have already succumbed to the religion of evolution prey upon and pressure others to also believe the lie.  It is exactly the same kind of thinking that the pharisees had as evidenced in John 7,
"Then answered them the Pharisees, Are ye also deceived? 48 Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed on him? 49 But this people who knoweth not the law are cursed."

You see, the Pharisees didn't want to believe the truth, and they also wanted to prevent everyone else from coming to the truth.  So they tried to belittle others by saying, in effect, that they are stupid and don't know anything, whereas they, the Pharisees, were in the know.  
That is what evolutionists do.  They try to make everyone feel stupid, as if they know and the common people do not.   But I say to each one of you.  You all can know the truth and be assured of it.  God did not make it so complicated that you have to be a guru, a shaman, a priest of what is falsly called science to understand the simple truths of God's creation (I'm not saying that every scientist is one, only those to whom it applies).  

"The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork."

"The heavens declare his righteousness, and all the people see his glory."

Take a look at Romans 1:

"18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."

No doubt about it, this is what has happened and is happening today because mankind has bought the lie of the religion of evolution and denied the living God.

Arthur
« Last Edit: March 07, 2003, 05:10:36 am by Arthur » Logged
Joe Sperling
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« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2003, 06:32:41 am »

Arthur---

I don't really want to get into a long convoluted argument about this. The wording in Jeremiah distinctly is referring to something---it is using the same wording as the 2nd verse in the Bible. "I looked upon the earth and it was without form and void, and to the heavens and there was no light"--he is using these exact words for a purpose. Often God does this. When he addresses the King of Tyre(I believe it is in Isaiah) he is really addressing Lucifer--he is addressing an ancient person who once "walked upon the flaming stones in the Heavenly Eden". Yes--the Lord may be addressing the land of Judah, but he is doing it by also addressing something that happened far in the past also. If you read the Genesis account the Lord creates day and night on the first day---he doesn't create heaven(the firmament) until the second day. How can there be day and night, and dividing light from darkness without a heavens, stars, etc.? I believe that is because their was a spiritual creation first--and the light and the darkness were separated.  It also states that the Spirit of the Lord came upon the face of the waters---and that God separated the waters from the waters and called it heaven---but wait a minute--the "heavens" are where the earth is located too--
we know that now due to science---we are a planet floating in the heavens of space. So was there an earth before God created heaven? It seems to state the same--God comes upon a planet "without form and void" and then afterwards
separates the waters and calls the firmament "heaven". How is this possible? I believe it is because verse 1 is referring to the creation of the Universe--whereas the separating of the waters from the waters--the firmament--
is our atmosphere. The seven days happen after God's Spirit comes upon the face of the waters of a planet "without form and void". Everything that exists in our earthly heaven and on our planet from that time forward were made within those seven days. But it still seems to infer that that planet was there BEFORE God created the heaven and the earth. Think of an artist painting a picture and saying "Look at my creation"---then painting over it and saying "Look at what I have created".
The earth could be the same thing--God could have created something upon the earth with no atmosphere as we know it(the firmament)--then created it all over again with what we know at the present time. Remember what God calls that day in the future--"A new heavens and a new earth"--
a "New Creation"---but wait--it will still be the same earth--David will reign forever with Israel according to the Bible--but God still calls it a "New" Creation. God will create something new but using the same material all over again. I think it boils down to the word "Create". When it says In the beginning God created the Heavens and the earth it may be referring to a time long before the "creation" of the heaven and earth we know of. He created a Garden of Eden on this earth once, and he will "create" a new earth
out of this one some day also. The dinosaurs could possibly be part of another "creation" long before our present earth.
But as always it's only conjecture, a lot like philosophy where you do a lot of talking but go in circles and conclude nothing. But it's fun to discuss it.


--Joe
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paul hohulin
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« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2003, 09:42:02 pm »

There is another view of creation written by John Sailhammer a respected scholar of Hebrew Scriptures.  He writes extensively on Genesis 1&2.  He fits his view under a new category of historical creationist.  It is a very different view than the young earth(ICR people) and the Progressive creationists(Hugh Ross)  I find the view refreshing and thought provoking.  The book is "Genesis Unbound".  You can find critiques of it on the web.  Here is one place you can find a summary of some of the main points of his book.

http://www.probe.org/docs/genesis.html

Paul Hohulin
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Oscar
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« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2003, 10:46:36 am »


Hi there folks,

I've been doing a paper and haven't had time to post much this week.  But I just sent it in so here I am.

Here is a question for Arthur.

Evidence of an old earth from Varves.

1. Varves are thin layers of sediment that form at the bottom of shallow lakes.

2. Lake varves often show a pattern of one color for summer layers, and another color for winter layers.  Each pair of layers form a varve.

3. Summer layers in varves contain fossilized pollen, demonstrating that these are annual variations.

4. Counting the varves indicates the minimum age of the formation.

5. The Green River Shale deposits of Wyoming, Utah and Colorado show several million successive varves.

6. The thickness of the varves shows the effect on rainfall of the 11 1/2 year sunspot cycles and the 12,000 year precession of the equinoxes.


Here is the question.  How do you account for these observed layerings, (by core drillings), from a 6000 year old earth perspective?

Thomas Maddux
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al Hartman
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« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2003, 12:31:23 pm »

     Just two things:

     (1.)  If we can believe his word that God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise, why do so many of us have such difficulty visualizing a divine workshop in which God produces "antiques," i.e. fossils, geological "evidence," objects that "predate" the traditional creation?  
     As kids, many of us enjoyed seeing Superman squeeze a piece of coal into a diamond (faceted, yet!)-- why can't we see the Almighty creating things that defy our concepts of time?

     (2.)  Arthur and Joe:  Lay off the coffee!  And no more sugar!  Are you guys running a First-One-To-Fill-a-Page contest, or what?
     Joe, take a lesson from Arthur:  PARAGRAPHS!  They make the text SO much more readable!

Your lovin' brother,
al




« Last Edit: March 08, 2003, 12:33:17 pm by al Hartman » Logged
4Him
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« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2003, 10:25:09 pm »

    Just two things:

     (1.)  ...why do so many of us have such difficulty visualizing a divine workshop in which God produces "antiques," i.e. fossils, geological "evidence," objects that "predate" the traditional creation?
...
     (2.)  Arthur and Joe:  Lay off the coffee!  And no more sugar!  Are you guys running a First-One-To-Fill-a-Page contest, or what?
     Joe, take a lesson from Arthur:  PARAGRAPHS!  They make the text SO much more readable!

Your lovin' brother,
al
Re: (1.) - Matthew 19:26 (ASV)  And Jesus looking upon them said to them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
(2,) I hear you!  Wink
Amen brother! Joe, I had to paste it into Word and break it into my own paragraphs so that Arlene & I could read it. (It was worth it tho' Joe.  Wink )  Grin

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Oscar
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« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2003, 12:33:19 am »

    Just two things:

     (1.)  If we can believe his word that God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise, why do so many of us have such difficulty visualizing a divine workshop in which God produces "antiques," i.e. fossils, geological "evidence," objects that "predate" the traditional creation?  
     As kids, many of us enjoyed seeing Superman squeeze a piece of coal into a diamond (faceted, yet!)-- why can't we see the Almighty creating things that defy our concepts of time?

     (2.)  Arthur and Joe:  Lay off the coffee!  And no more sugar!  Are you guys running a First-One-To-Fill-a-Page contest, or what?
     Joe, take a lesson from Arthur:  PARAGRAPHS!  They make the text SO much more readable!

Your lovin' brother,
al






Al,

The reason why I have such a hard time visualizing a workshop where God produces "antiques" is twofold:

1. I see no evidence in scripture to indicate that God has fooled us into thinking the universe is old when it isn't.  He is the God who cannot lie, and this line of thinking leads to the conclusion that He has carefully crafted the entire universe down to the very photons that transmit radiomagnetic radiation, including light, in such a way as to fool everyone into thinking the creation is old.  

Could God have done that?  Perhaps.  But  I see nothing in scripture to indicate that He did.   I know that Adam was created as an adult, and that Jesus turned the water into wine which the folks thought was good wine.  But there is nothing in these narratives which tell us or even imply to us that He did this with the universe.

2. On the other hand, I accept the traditional Christian viewpoint that the Universe is real, ie not an illusion, and that our senses give us true information about what has actual existence.

The lake varves I described are really there.  Oil geologists have found them all over the world.  They have drilled down into the earth and have brought up cores that can be examined in laboratories, and therefore are emperical evidence.  The pollen fossils show that each successive varve was laid down in an annual cycle as streams flowed into the lake every spring/summer.

If the "illusion of age" theory is true, it means that God has gone to a whole lot of trouble to fool us.  Why would He do that?

Beats me.

Thomas Maddux
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al Hartman
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« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2003, 08:14:23 am »


     i'm sorry.  i just have a really hard time believing that we have to understand every iota of God's motives.  i realize i'm being lured toward debating these matters, and i really don't want to do that.  
     It honestly doesn't matter to me how old the universe is, or whether God recently made something that seems to someone to be older than it is.  i don't see anything in the bible that indicates the need for me to care about such things.  That was the point of my previous post, but once again i was only making myself clear to myself.
     Let me try again in simpler terms:  i don't think our individual relationships with the Lord depend in any way upon what we believe about such things as the age of the universe.  BUT, if in someone's case such a matter is hindering someone's faith, looking to Jesus Christ, not to "science," is the path to take.
     There is only ONE matter on which every aspect of our salvation depends, and that is the place that we give Christ in our hearts.
     If your idea of a good time is researching the empirical evidence to back theories in the realms of time and space,
i wish you well.  Enjoy!  But, as i told Tom in a recent email, every scientific discipline has its "experts" on both sides of any question.  The realm of science is ruled by minds devoted to the pursuit of prestige, fame, and power, as well as truth.  And the very basis of research in any given field of science is subject to change with every new discovery.
     Science may be a fun hobby, a terrific career choice, a boon to humanity, or just a great way to show off how smart you are.  But it's a poor place to verify your faith.
     So when i said:

     "If we can believe his word that God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise, why do so many of us have such difficulty visualizing a divine workshop in which God produces "antiques," i.e. fossils, geological "evidence," objects that "predate" the traditional creation?  
  "As kids, many of us enjoyed seeing Superman squeeze a piece of coal into a diamond (faceted, yet!)-- why can't we see the Almighty creating things that defy our concepts of time?"  i was not suggesting that we should believe those things...

 ...what i was trying to get across was, if we believe that God has the power and the right to do whatever he pleases, why can't we just LET him do what he pleases without requiring that it all make sense to us?
     Our thoughts on the fossil record, carbon dating, physical evidence of the Flood are not and must never be germane to our daily life in Christ.
     Once again, i am not criticizing nor making light of anyone's personal interests.  i only ask what the value is of discussing them at length on a site which purports to exist to help Christians in need of spiritual direction?
     Beats me.

al Hartman




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psalm51
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« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2003, 09:14:09 am »

Thank you, Al. I heartily agree with you.
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moonflower
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« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2003, 09:34:14 am »

You're right. The earth is flat. Shame on everyone!  Grin
Down to the toenails!  Shocked  Grin
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